Transcript
Danny Price: everybody. Welcome back to episode nine of the Table Talk Recap Podcast. I'm here with Shane. Another sermon that Shane did not teach this Sunday, so we get a chance to go over some questions. These are going to be more directed at Shane, um just what he thinks. you know Obviously, some of it will be based from kind of thoughts and questions from the message. so This week, we had the privilege of getting to hear Bruce Heggelson teach on the church. Again, we're in the middle. If you're not familiar, we're ah located at MVF um Mountain view Fellowship Church in Heber. And we're going through a series on the EFCA statement of faith, which the association that we're a part of, which is a little different than a denomination.
Danny Price: And this week, Bruce taught on the kind of the tenet of the church. So I'm going read that out loud and I'll, give a couple of comments about his message. The tenant says, we believe that the true church comprises all who have been justified by God's grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
Danny Price: They're united by the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ of which he is the head. The true church is manifested in local churches whose membership should be composed only of believers. The Lord Jesus mandated two ordinances, baptism and the Lord's supper, which visibly and tangibly expresses the gospel, or excuse me, express the gospel.
Danny Price: Though they are not the means of salvation, when celebrated by the church in genuine faith, these ordinance ordinances confirm and nourish the believer. Awesome. um So yeah, but Bruce did a great job. um I feel like he, especially talking about...
Danny Price: like the the need to be part of the body. He talked about that one that one quote that he shared from his son um towards the end of when they went on their mission trip. I thought that was a cool, it was an emotional moment, I think, for a father sharing something from his son.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: If you haven't heard the message, you'll have to listen to it.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: But basically his son, Bruce's son, Barack, shared something, kind of a devotion that he wrote when he was like a junior in high school. And it was just really powerful talking about the impact of, the whole like body of believers type of feel.
Danny Price: Again, it was a mission context, like a mission field context, but it really applied to the church. That was really cool for me to listen to. um And he did a good job, I think, just showing what the church is for, why the church exists. um Especially, you know, like, as I was saying, like the whole part of the body, you know, coming together, different parts, all acting as one.
Danny Price: So yeah, it was is a great message. I don't feel like he doesn't, does he, I don't think he teaches super long. I think he has in in the past, but was it a shorter message? I, that just, it struck me as a shorter message.
Shane: Yeah, it was ah it was a it wasn't short, but it was definitely shorter. um You know, ah one of the mistakes you make when you're when you don't get to preach much and your start is you want you try to fit everything in.
Shane: And so that's something Bruce and I have been talking about and just trying to help him like remember like, hey, you know you're going to preach again. Don't got to fit everything in.
Danny Price: Yeah, true.
Shane: um So he I think he's getting much better preaching.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, it was concise.
Shane: at honing, honing in at what, where he's wanting to go.
Danny Price: No, that makes sense. I feel if I was teaching, I just don't have great... I mean, I can speak here easily because it's a podcast. it's not There's not high pressure, I guess. But public speaking, I think it's hard because you want... Like you said, like I feel like I'm that same way. like I want to fit everything. I want to say everything that needs to be said.
Danny Price: And sometimes it's better... like The silence speaks louder than... the you know just over overdoing it, so to speak.
Shane: Yeah. Well, and and if you say too much, people don't get any of it. You got to hit home point you really want to make.
Danny Price: Yeah. If you you hit nothing, yeah.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. That's a good thought. But yeah, no, he did a good job. um And i I had a couple of questions. Some of them are based off the message. Some of them were just like questions about the church that I was just coming up with. um So to get started jumping into it, what is therit the origin of the church?
Danny Price: Where did the church come from? And describe where we get kind of our modern day church from. how does that how does that How does that work? The history behind it.
Shane: Well, I mean, the the history is, i mean, outside of Jesus, i would say, you know, um starts at Pentecost, Acts chapter 2.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: um And, you know, it started as more of just a small... following. Um, but you know, obviously Peter preached the Pentecost, 2000 people, uh, gave the life to Christ there. Um, after a while, a staying in only Jerusalem for a while. Um, I, you know, there, there was the dis dispersion, um, and, uh,
Shane: through some persecution, um, Christians dispersed and Paul also did his, um, evangelistic ministry. And, you know, so it started to spread throughout the Roman empire.
Shane: um but you know, as it had continued to grow and, and spread for about 300 years, um, but, you know, also faced a lot of persecution during that time.
Shane: And then, um, I, I would say the, The real like boost obviously was was when the Roman Empire kind of adopted Christianity is no longer except, you know, not no longer persecuting it, but actually under Constantine, he um he became a believer and they made it an officially accepted
Danny Price: Right.
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: religion at that time. And so then it continued to spread and yeah. And then that, that's a whole thing is, you know, ah how Catholicism got moved going and, um but, you know, but, you know, the way I see that the, the, to a God lens, I see that as, you know, it was a moment to, to really expand the church in a big way.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: Obviously we, we distort and, mess up some of that anytime God gives us stuff, we always mess it up a little bit, um a little bit, a lot.
Danny Price: yep ye
Shane: You know, but um so, you know, the, all the debates about how the Catholic church got in bed with Rome and, you know, all that, but um and that's kind of where it started.
Danny Price: Yeah. There's a whole lot there. Yeah. If you're interested, i mean, i would say to most most people listening, if you're not familiar with that whole, you know,
Danny Price: the lineage and the, you know, not just the origin, but just like the whole process and history of behind the church. It's very interesting. I'm just now, and I mean, I've been a Christian for 30 years old. So I gave, gave my life to the Lord when I was what, five. So for 25 years, I've been a Christian and I've only just in the past like a year or two starting to scratch the surface of that. It's very interesting to see all that history stuff in terms of like, yeah, the Roman empire and how that got adopted. All that stuff is very interesting. So I would encourage you, if you're listening you're not familiar with that, if,
Danny Price: you know, obviously there's more things that are more important, I think for your faith, but that is, it is a rich history behind the church and everything that, everything that we come from. It's cool.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: But originally, like you said, it started in Acts, um, which is, and remind me, so Pentecost comes and Jesus is dead. How long was it not dead?
Danny Price: Sorry, ascended um wrong words. Don't, yeah, don't quote me on that.
Shane: No longer on earth.
Danny Price: Um, Yeah, no longer on earth. That's a better way to say that. Remind me, how long... I don't actually know this. How long was that between... Do you know between when he ascended and when Pentecost was? Was it a period of like weeks, months, year a year?
Shane: Oh, ah less than less than months.
Danny Price: I don't remember how long it was.
Shane: i want to say it was 40 days. I would have to go back and look.
Danny Price: Okay, so it was like a it was a shorter period. Okay.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Because I know they were all hiding in the upper room and then the Holy was rushing in, but it's interesting.
Shane: Yeah. I feel bad that I don't know that. if i If I knew the Jewish calendar of feasts, I would know that really
Danny Price: Right. And I feel bad. If you're listening, you don't know what Pentecost is. Pentecost was a previous Jewish holiday. And so a ton of believers were already gathered together for this Jewish feast, for this Jewish holiday. I don't remember what it's celebrating off the top of my head, but they're already there. And we refer to Pentecost as when...
Danny Price: the Holy Spirit kind of comes, it says it comes it came rushing in kind of like a wind and like little tongues of fire appeared above but the believers' heads. So if we say Pentecost or someone says Pentecost to you, that's what that's referring to in the Christian sense, but it is a Jewish holiday.
Danny Price: I think it still is, or it was.
Shane: Yeah. And it was, and it was 40 days.
Danny Price: Okay,
Shane: Um, this, um, I just referred back to it.
Danny Price: okay. okay
Danny Price: That's good to know. Yeah, that wasn't one of the questions I had, but I just thought in my head, I'm like, I don't actually know how long that was.
Shane: Um,
Danny Price: That's interesting. Okay. um Kind of moving on. This is a little bit, this a dicey topic, I guess. How do we relate to believers in other churches of other denominations?
Danny Price: how do you have How do we handle differences between those denominations? Are we all considered part of what most people would say is called like the quote unquote capital C church? Is everyone that says they're a Christian a Christian?
Danny Price: is Are we all part of the church? And if we're not, how do we how do we handle some of those differences between whether it be core values or secondary kind of situations?
Shane: Yeah, that's a, that's a huge question.
Danny Price: Sorry, that's a lot. That's a big, yeah.
Shane: And, um, I guess my quick answer is no not everyone who calls himself as a Christian is a Christian. Um, And I even think that goes within whatever church you're in. um And then B, um yeah, you kind of hit on it. there's There's primary issues and secondary issues or core issues, essential doctrines and secondary doctrines. And you and I have talked quite a bit about those, but um yeah that's kind of why we're we're teaching. One of the main reasons I'm teaching through this series is one thing I like about the EFCA process
Shane: is within ah a little bit of variation. All of the doctrines of the EFCA are... are basically core doctrines.
Shane: You know, there might be a little bit of difference in you know, like the second coming, is it premillennial or is it amillennial?
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You know, that kind but we all believe that in a second coming, um, we all believe that Jesus Christ is, is Lord, you know, those kinds of things.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: So, um, there's some very core doctrines, um, And there are, i would say, most churches that people are going to come across fit in those like, okay, most of our people who are listening to this live in Utah, right?
Shane: I would say 80% of the churches outside of the LDS church that would call themselves Christian churches that I know of,
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: ah they're They're pretty mainline Christian churches.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: But, you know, especially today, we're getting into ah such a liberal culture um that, and there are a lot of, there are churches that say Christian church on them that teach things that are nowhere near what the Bible teaches.
Shane: um You know, and I and i think... really it's, that's important for Christians to have a discerning heart and, and not just accept everything they hear from the pulpit, but also not just, except even if it's the, even if someone quotes scripture, not to just accept the way that person quoted that scripture, but, but to know scripture enough to at least look at it within ah some level of context to, with the overall counsel of the word of God.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: All things work together for good, Shane.
Shane: And
Danny Price: Don't you know that?
Shane: yeah what's all things work together for good.
Danny Price: Yeah. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Shane: Um, yeah, yeah. For me. um
Danny Price: For me.
Shane: but, um, so, so there's that, you know, um, And yeah, it's, it's a tough one. And, you know, and as much as I want to work with LDS church and, you know, i was just on a podcast where, you know, and being interviewed by ah LDS person who she's lovely person and, you know, um, but I get all the time, you know, people wanting to group us with the LDS church and, um, um,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: you know, and we're, we're not the same, you know, I've had to confront that a couple of times, you know, with, with different, they want me to be involved with different art, me to involve our church with different things that they're doing that, um you know, and I, and I let, you know, me, I want to work with people.
Danny Price: right
Shane: I want to not cause fights or problems where I don't need to, but, but when it comes to, you know, worship, say I, I can't invite our church to worship with,
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: ah LDS congregations because we're worshiping. truly believe, and I think the Bible teaches a different Jesus. And so, um and I have LDS friends that, that who maybe even listened to this and that might hurt them or make them upset that I would say that.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: But I, I think that we have to understand that there is a difference.
Danny Price: yeah Yeah. That's a good thought. um
Shane: That said, real quick, real quick, you you talked about the capital C.
Danny Price: It's hard. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.
Shane: I mean, that said, ah there are a lot, i all most of the mainline denominations, you know and you you could literally do a quick internet search on like, hey, what would be considered mainline Protestant denominations?
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: And then you, you know, most of those you would, you would see in there and I would say, yes, they're capital C. And, and do we all have a little bit, you know, I've talked a lot that, do we all have some things wrong? Yes. But, but within that core, we, there has, there's some things that Jesus is pretty clear. We got to accept.
Danny Price: We got to believe, yeah. No, that's good. And you know all these different denominations, if you're not familiar with the different denominations, I don't think personally it takes away from the church.
Danny Price: um think I think a lot of people, that's a big skeptic, like a skeptic's point of view of like, well, look at all these denominations, like who's actually the right one. It's like, well, yes, there's different denominations, but if you see where they're dividing over most of these mainline Protestant denominations, they're not dividing mostly over the core issues.
Danny Price: It's mostly over things like
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: okay, how exactly do we do baptism? How exactly do we do worship? What is exactly looked like to XYZ, you know, within a Sunday service or within, you know, how elders function or, you know, do we call them elders? Do we call them this? You know, who's allowed to be in, you know, whatever role It's always that kind of stuff. Usually it's not stuff, like you said, that's the kind of the core doctrine. and Most, like I did this, and I do this for fun, just when i different churches come up to camp, I'll look at their you know website online and look at their statement of faith.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: Most of them are pretty similar to the EFCA's in the general sense. Some of them don't include certain things, but most of them are pretty ah pretty standard. And also sometimes include a lot more nitty gritty things, like they get really into it about their specific church, about what they do.
Danny Price: So...
Shane: Yeah. And real quick, the other thing.
Danny Price: just to clari Just to clarify. Yeah.
Shane: Yeah. And the first part of your question is how do we relate to those believers? I think we relate to them as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And we we have healthy, fun debate, but we hug hug and pray and you know um we all do all the one another's and that the Bible talks about with each other.
Danny Price: Right.
Danny Price: Yeah. And I think you're good at that. You have a bigger you have a church you have a kingdom mindset, as think people would say Call that a kingdom mindset of You're not just trying to grow your little empire of Mountain View Fellowship in Hebrew.
Danny Price: You're trying to grow the Christian community of Utah. It's a bigger, or not even just Utah, but it's a bigger mindset as opposed to just, we got to isolate into our little you know our little box.
Shane: Yep. Yeah. yeah
Danny Price: All right. That was a good great answer. A great answer. What is the primary function of the church? And I guess the kind of the sub question of that would be is Sunday service and the programs that the church provides, is it more for the saved for the core believers or is it for reaching the loss?
Danny Price: Is there an element of like a both and with that? How does that work?
Shane: I would definitely say there's an element of the both end. um One of the problems in general, and we're all guilty of this, even the the most knowledgeable Christian and teachers, is we call what happens on Sunday morning the church.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: And we all know, most of us that are knowledgeable understand that is a service. That's not church. Right? And us as people are the church.
Danny Price: yes
Shane: um And I do think Bruce did a good job of of hitting on that on Sunday. um yeah But we still, we get caught up in thinking Sunday morning is the church and that's that's a problem. um Because then we we all think, well, this is what it's supposed to be.
Shane: Well, the truth is we're just as believers supposed to live out these things. And so I would break it up into three categories. And this is, you know, pastors, we love our, um I don't even know what to call acronyms. Is that where we, or,
Danny Price: Our three points that we, yeah.
Shane: or Yeah. Well, and just even ways ways that we can remember things.
Danny Price: and yeah
Shane: So it's ah three E words. It's um the church's is the purpose is exaltation, edification, and evange evangelization.
Shane: um I don't even know if that third one's a word, but you know we it preaches well.
Danny Price: Yeah. no Evangelization.
Shane: So yeah, evangelism.
Danny Price: Evangelism. Evangelism.
Shane: So yeah. you know So we're we're called to exalt God, exalt Christ, um to edify the body, to grow, to build up the body, make disciples, um and to evangelize the world.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And so...
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Now, what happens on Sunday morning, that should be a mix of all those things. And part of the problem is we also, we even get confused of what worship is. I mean, worship is not singing. Singing is ah is a um as a result of the where your heart is. It's a manifestation of your heart.
Shane: Um, but worship Romans 12 says worship is offering our bodies as living sacrifices to the Lord.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: Um, see Paul says that's your spiritual act of worship.
Danny Price: Yes.
Shane: So, so worship is living out the message, living out the gospel, serving Christ. Um, and so, you know, so it's a multifaceted thing. And one of the problems is so many believers, they want to fit their Christianity into an hour and 15 minutes on Sundays, um,
Shane: you know, and then if they're really, really spiritual three hours because they serve one service and go to one service, um, you know, but the truth is we're supposed to be doing this throughout the whole week.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And, um, but yeah, so I, I, And, you know so then you're going to get believers that think, oh, it needs to be but all about meaty, really deep discipleship teaching, you know, and then you got believers. It's like, no, it's more for evangelism. And then you got believers like, no, it's more for worship. It's for all of it.
Shane: And so we as a church, the philosophy we take is, look, whether we like it or not, whether we might think it's the stupidest thing in the world.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: But the fact is, the average person that wants to investigate relationship with Jesus, the first place they look is Sunday mornings.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: So as long as that's the case in this culture, I'm a big proponent for, look, our Sunday mornings are going to be even evangelical. I'm going to invite people to, you know, examine the real relationship of Christ.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: I'm going to keep the cookies on the bottom shelf as they say, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to use a bunch of theological words that people don't understand.
Danny Price: Yeah, or you'll explain if you do.
Shane: um
Danny Price: noticed you do that. You'll explain what it means. Like if you say, don't know, sanctification, you're not just going to leave that out there for people to be confused about. They'll explain it.
Shane: Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm going to keep it very evangelistic with some edification. I, hope you know, I hope that people grow a little bit through the messages, but, but I want it to be something that a new believer can understand or a non-believer can understand.
Shane: And then, you know, our encouragement look is like, look, if you're at that point where you're one wanting to really grow, you should be involved. You should be giving God more than an hour a week, you know? So don't, don't come on Sunday expecting that. Come on Sunday expecting, if you're at that point in life, you should be coming on Sunday serving and, and wanting to help others come to know Christ. And then you should be getting your growth elsewhere. And that's why we have groups and Bible studies and, you know, offer tools and all that for you to do your own study.
Shane: So that's, that's kind of my philosophy on it.
Danny Price: Yeah. yeah So it's a both-and, yeah, and agree with the different, like it's evangelistic, but it's also like e ific it's the both-and. um
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: I think I was listening, this was a while ago, this must have been about a year ago, I was listening to a message by Matt Chandler, and he was talking about, they had just done this meeting at their church of like kind of a visionary, like talking, it like kind of a Q&A of people can ask questions, and he's like, we kept on getting a lot of questions that got turned in of like, are we a disciple-making church, or are we a revivalist church, or are we a...
Danny Price: whatever, you know, and and he's like, to me, he's like, when I hear questions like that, I'm like, I hear a question like, which wing, when you're on a plane, which wing is your favorite?
Shane: Which way is your favorite movie?
Danny Price: And he's like, you need both to stay up. He's like, it's not about, you know, there's a, there's an element to like, yes, you're, we're disciple making church, but yes, we're also, you know, about growing the body and about evangelizing. If you're just, if you're overly focused on one over the other,
Danny Price: I feel like you can come kind of become out of balance. And he talks about, you know, he had a whole analogy for that with like crashing. He's like, essentially, he's like, you're asking someone which wing of the plane is their favorite, which I thought was but a funny way to put that.
Shane: Yeah, no, that's a great analogy. Yeah. And he's a great example of, you know, there's a few of those just like,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um just very gifted individuals that, I mean, he obviously has a strong discipleship heart, but he's gifted in such a way as a speaker that he also is very attractional um because you want to listen to them, you know?
Danny Price: yeah yeah
Shane: um So even if you don't even understand everything, he's where he's going, um he draws you in. So they're, they're great at reaching people because he's, he's good at both.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: So yeah.
Danny Price: Right. So you kind of, you, you mentioned this or you kind of touched on this a little bit, but when you said church is not just Sunday mornings, but that being said, talking about historically like first century church, how did they do church?
Danny Price: I know it probably didn't look much like what we do now, you know, in the sense of three worship songs, the message announcements, and then, you know, another worship song at the end. How did, how did church look for them? and would you say that we're off because we we do it differently or like we're not doing it correctly? I know some people would, I don't make that assertion, but i think some people might.
Danny Price: How did the original like first century church do church? And then how has it kind of evolved since then?
Shane: Well, the, the passage everyone turns to for this is Acts chapter two, verse 42 through 48. Um, you know, they devoted themselves to the apostles, teaching fellowship, breaking of the bread and prayers.
Shane: They came upon every soul, um, and all came upon every soul and many wonders and signs are done. Um, all believe, believe were together. They had all things in common. Um, you know, they met in each other's homes, they broke bread, they met in a temple.
Shane: And so that's, that's where everyone kind of goes. Um, And obviously there's some cultural aspects to that that we we that don't translate exactly. But I think the thing we need to get to is what they devoted themselves to.
Shane: They devoted themselves to teaching, fellowship, prayer, and, and you know, well, breaking of bread. So fellowship that way.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah.
Shane: um and And then they they spent a lot of time together. You know, um and so. I think we've we've got to look and they met in different ways. It says they met in the temple courts, they met in each other's homes.
Shane: So you can you can have a lot more people in the temple courts than you can in in homes. Right. So you um in a home, they probably i mean, they're. they were probably not 5,000 square foot homes like around what we have around here.
Shane: So that, you know, you're, you probably had eight.
Danny Price: like a hundred people max
Shane: Yeah. one you Well, and they also didn't need space like we did. I don't think they were as a, like it had as much anxiety about social distancing and stuff as we do.
Danny Price: but You know, yeah, there are, yeah.
Shane: So they, you know, but they might've fed, you know, 20, 25, 30 people, you know, maybe big homes more, but, but then in the temple courts, they met in larger groups, you know, or in the synagogues or, you know, where, because they met in different places like that.
Shane: So, So I think the key that we're not, once again, we're not just trying to do our faith on a Sunday morning. And people, and you see it all the time. One of the saddest things I see as a as a pastor is I see people come to, they love church, they start coming to church, they give they give their life to Christ, they get baptized.
Shane: but they but they don't go further with it. And I always kind of give the analogy, that's like you hearing that Disneyland is this awesome place and you've never been to Disneyland and everyone tells about Disneyland.
Danny Price: a
Shane: And so you go and you pay your ticket and you go in the gate and you just sit there with the map and kind of right at the front bench and you check out the map for a while and you don't ever go around the park and you're gonna leave on, yeah, you're gonna you're going, these people are stupid.
Danny Price: but That was so fun.
Shane: This really wasn't that big of a deal. And that's, that's what a lot of Christians do. They just go to church and they, they, they don't get involved in their faith. And then as result, you don't really see God work in big ways.
Shane: Sure. When you first came, you experienced God working in big ways because you were never opening your heart to God. And so now all of a sudden you start opening your heart to God and you saw that, but now youve you, you got to take it further. You got to start getting involved with people. You, so you got to start giving when you feel like, man, I don't have anything to give. You've got to start sacrificing. You got to start spending time with people, showing compassion.
Shane: And when you start doing those things, that's when you start to see your faith come alive.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: And so as you can tell, this I'm, I'm kind of passionate about these, this topic.
Danny Price: No, yeah.
Shane: So, um,
Danny Price: It's good.
Shane: But it's it's just so sad to me because that's where people want their Christianity to stop. They'll devote their life to kids' sports. They'll devote their lives to, you know, getting higher education. They'll devote their lives to to sitting on a couch and watching sports, watching other people do things.
Shane: But they won't devote their lives to the things of God. And that's what the church is meant to be.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Hmm. No, I love that. That's, that's ah encouraging a little bit convicting too. um And I liked how you said earlier, like talking about like doing life like they did life with people.
Danny Price: I think that's something that's really unique with the church is that it shouldn't be just people, in my opinion, at least that it shouldn't be just be people that you see on Sunday.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: And it's like, well, that's my Sunday crowd. that's and But everyone else I hang out with on my day-to-day is not, like, it's just like, I have like different friends. Like, I think there should be some crossover between like, hey, i'm and I'm having so-and-so over to my house and we're going to break bread.
Danny Price: I'm a big fan of food. So I'm like, just get people together and do food a lot. Like, that's a powerful moment.
Shane: yeah I think, you know, I think a good example, as you and I both know, you know, my brother, Kyle.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: i would say he's been a believer I would say he's been a believer for years, but he didn't really have fellowship.
Danny Price: Oh, he's so good at this. He's so good at this.
Shane: He would go to church, but then his friends were all, the like you said, theyre totally different people. right Well, now he's gotten involved in his church Freedom Point and his pastor, Justin, he became good friends with him. So Kyle started to get really involved. And now, like every time I go to Kyle's, like, yeah, he's so good at it. he He'll have anywhere from...
Shane: I mean, when I'm there for three or four days, I will see anywhere from five to 30 of his friends.
Danny Price: ye Yep, yep. He just invites him over.
Shane: And most of them, most are from the church. And the cool thing about it is a couple will be neighbors. He'll have a couple people. And as a result, I have seen him grow so much in his mindset.
Shane: Like it's changed his mindset.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: He used to know a little some of the things and he knew the Bible a little bit, you know, blah, blah. his mindset about what it means to live is, is totally different than what it was eight years ago.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Right. Yeah, no, it's really powerful when you start doing, comm community you have community together. And again, I'm not going to get super into this.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: and We might for a second for one of the questions, but like, you know, the body, we have different functions and some, there's different functions and you're not going to be, if you're a hand, so to speak, you're not going to be able to perform the duties of different members, you know, parts of the body.
Danny Price: And so you need to be together and it's not about being solo.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: we'll We'll talk about that later. But um next question, I don't really want to get super far into this. This could be, we could spend a whole podcast on this. um Is the church, like capital C church, you know, the Protestant, you know, body of believers, big body of believers, are we the new Israel?
Shane: no
Danny Price: And are we God's people, so to speak? How does that work with the promises that God made to Israel in the Old Testament? Does that relate to us? I know I'm asking you to divide on some things with some people. but Basically, just is the church the people of God in the sense that we've thought about the people of God being Israel in the Old Testament?
Shane: um there's There are actually quite a few different views on it.
Danny Price: What do you think? I know. Yeah.
Shane: um the The kind of the big ones would be replacement theology, um where the church has replaced Israel as God's covenant people.
Danny Price: i know
Shane: um And then dispensationalism, which we talked about um last week, because it kind of all works in together, where um the israel Israel today is a very
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: big part of God's plan. Um, and then, um, covenant theology, which would be where I more fall.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Um, and that, um, um,
Danny Price: Describe that describe that like yeah briefly, um because that's that's interesting to me.
Shane: that that the church is ah continuation of god of of Israel. We didn't replace Israel, um but we're expanding.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: God's people is now no longer just Israel. God's people is... is, is the church as well. And, you know, Israel in as much as people follow Jesus, you know, the ones that basically Jesus is, is where the Messiah.
Shane: So, so if, you know, um yeah, so,
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: we're we're basically that we're one people in in Christ, um in the if we're in Christ.
Danny Price: Got it.
Shane: um So that's kind of a weird thing, because a lot most Jews don't follow Christ, but there are Messianic Jews.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um There's there's quite a few. um So, yeah, i don't know if that helps.
Danny Price: No, it does.
Shane: But
Danny Price: i've I've thought about this, and I know people have strong opinions on this, because it does definitely... impact how you see modern day Israel? Like, do you still see them as God's people?
Shane: ah huh
Danny Price: I know some people have like a kind of a ah duality of some of those views. Well, they'll be, well, they'll say, I've heard people say this.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: Well, they'll be like, well, Israel's important. God has a special place in his heart for them still, but it's not the people of God. Like we've seen in the old Testament, because once God came and started the new covenant, it was open to all the Gentiles. And you see that being a huge issue in the new Testament between you know Are the Gentiles accepted? Do the Gentiles now have to get circumcised? How does that work?
Danny Price: um I don't really have a huge stance on it, but as far as I understand it, the way that I've looked at it before, or what someone explained it to me was, is dispensationalism, like you said, it's Israel essentially is a big, I mean, it's a big part of modern day, the way we see like modern day end times and the modern day, like we're supposed to be all aligned with this allied with Israel because they're you know, they're God's people still.
Danny Price: And whereas like someone who's more in covenant theology, they're like, eh, it's God's people in the sense it was, but it's not this like the nation of Israel, which, which is hard too, because then you're like Jewish people or the Jewish like nationality is different than being Jewish.
Shane: and okay
Danny Price: Like you you can, you can be Jewish in terms of your like, like culturally and like religiously, you can be Jewish, but not necessarily
Shane: Oh yeah.
Danny Price: like from Israel or, but then vice versa, you can be from Israel and be quote unquote, I don't know if you would call them Jewish, but from Israel, can, you know, living in that area and then not be like following the traditions and, know, et cetera, et cetera.
Shane: yeah Yeah, I would say most Jewish people are secularist at some level.
Danny Price: So it's, it's complicated.
Shane: I mean, you know, led there's there's devout Jews, but a lot are just kind of more secularist.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. It's complicated. I hate bringing that up because I don't want to open up too much of a can of worms. If someone's listening and you're like, what are you talking what are they talking about?
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Seriously, just look into it. It's interesting. It's one of those like side issues that people get really all in a tiff about, but I thought it was interesting.
Shane: Yeah. And I would fall in line with kind of what you said at the beginning that I i mean, Israel were God's children. You know, I mean, it you know, all you see in the Bible, they're talked about as God's children.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: I don't think God just abandoned them. i But I do think he... he brought the fulfillment of that covenant through Christ. And now there is a new covenant under, under Christ.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And, you know, and does God want all Jewish people to come to him? Absolutely. You know,
Danny Price: Yeah. No, I would agree with that. That's yeah. Again, it's a dicey topic. It's so, um um I love bringing this stuff up. It's fun. So kind of moving forward, um totally different question, but again, a little bit similar to what we were talking about earlier, where do I, or where does anybody fit in with the church?
Danny Price: um What is the line What is the tension that we hold between being a consumer and being filled by going to church versus serving and giving of our time and contributing to the church?
Danny Price: Does that make sense? Like at what point is there and overconsumption? Should we just be there just to receive or are we there to give as well? How does that work? but Where do we fit in?
Shane: Yeah. I mean, I, in my mind, the moment you give your life to Christ, you should be being there to give, um, at some level.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: And now that level is going to change. going to grow. And there are those that argue that, you know, like there there are people who would argue that our church is too consumer focused. Like we're too, you know, we have coffee, we have comfortable chairs, you know, blah, blah.
Shane: blah We have lights.
Danny Price: Really? Comfortable chairs? I mean, comfortable chairs?
Shane: What? What?
Danny Price: Really? Comfortable chairs? That's like...
Shane: Well, that we were, we would worry about it.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: the So, okay, here's my, here's my, I guess my thing.
Danny Price: Oh, I see. Okay. Okay.
Shane: So I have arguments with people on this. It's like, well, you, there's lighting when we're there's, there's coffee and blah, blah. You're making it consumeristic. So my argument is, okay. So you, and when you have a comfortable chair, you're making it consumeristic.
Shane: When you have, um,
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: When you have audio, you're making it consumeristic. You could, yeah, when you, gri why not, why not just have the speaker yell and those who are closer are going to hear it louder.
Danny Price: Greeters at the front. Yeah.
Shane: And those, you know, why, why let's, so, so there's, you know, we could go, there's a whole way we could go with it. But the point is their, their point is like, well, when you, there's a, um there's a saying what you win them with, you'll keep them with.
Danny Price: Oh, yeah.
Shane: and if you've ever heard that.
Danny Price: What you win them with, you win them to. or what you win them too No, Hold on. I get this. What you win them with, you win them to. That's the one that I've heard.
Shane: ah Okay, I've heard what you win them with, you keep them with. they Either way, the idea is they're saying, they're saying hey, if you win people if people come to Christ because they came to a Halloween thing that you did, then they're going to expect it always to be a party.
Danny Price: Okay, yes. It's the same concept, yeah.
Shane: I would totally disagree with that.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: And here's why I would totally disagree with it. Before Christ, ah if you're going to tell me you're not all about yourself before Christ in this culture,
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: i I don't know who isn't all about that. i've never I haven't met that person in this culture. um and And we have to go we have to somehow ah adapt that to that culture to get to help them understand. And then once people come to know Christ— I do believe that that needs to switch. It's like, hey, yeah, you you need, here's what we're here's what's expected of you.
Shane: And I do also believe that the gospel message needs to be preached in such a way that people don't think it's all going to be butterflies and rainbows the moment you accept Jesus.
Danny Price: Especially, especially that. Yeah. Yeah. That was to be my only pushback on that.
Shane: You know but I would...
Danny Price: I was going say, yeah.
Shane: Yeah, but I would challenge, like if people had that criticism about our church, I would say, yeah well, play me the message where I preach the gospel that way. Because I feel like we don't preach the gospel that way. We very much say that there is, you know, um there again, without getting too much into lordship theology, there is that we're we're asking people to at some, like you have to respond to Christ with with faithfulness.
Shane: so So all that to say, I can't even remember your original question.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: Oh, consumption for...
Danny Price: Well, are we tri are we are we contributing it or consuming? Is there an element of both? How does that, yeah.
Shane: Yeah, so so I think it's okay to have consumerism um up to, but once someone up to the line of you've ah you've given your life to Christ, once you give your life to Christ, you should be being constantly challenged and stretched to sacrifice yourself for Christ.
Danny Price: Should you?
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: and um And that happens there again through preaching, but also through discipleship and and community and and that kind of thing.
Danny Price: yeah Yeah, 100% agree with that. um It's interesting what you were talking about earlier. I'm trying to think I've had a lot of conversations. Me and Patrick have had conversations about this and this is a constant battle in the worship world. So I run sound on Sundays every once in a while. I'm at Mountain View. So I get I'm very into like the whole audio engineering side side of things, but I've listened to a bunch of podcasts and people who talk about this. Cause this is like this is a big debate right now in modern you know church worship is do we make worship sound and feel like a concert like you would go to?
Danny Price: And is that a distraction from people who are trying to worship or is there an element that's okay to have that in worship? And there's so many different points of views and theology behind why, why we believe certain things.
Danny Price: I, I kind of feel like, Similar, I think I would push back a little bit on what you said about a couple things. I don't think, or maybe not push back, but I would clarify a couple things, at least from my perspective.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: I don't think we should make ourselves just like the world to make them come to us and fit in. and then we like do a switch on them, I feel like we make things accessible and easily understood and not— it i hesitate to say comfortable because it's going to be uncomfortable going to church. It's weird.
Danny Price: You don't know, like, what are you doing? You're worshiping who? Like, what now? It's awkward. But you still at least—you remove a lot of the barriers and distractions that would be big roadblocks for people to come to know the Lord or to worship.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: So, for example, we have the lights, you know, a little dimmed. There's, you know, thoughts on that. Sometimes people will like them lot brighter. Some people will like them dimmer. We have them a little dim so people feel comfortable and feel like they aren't like, you know, a spotlight is on them the whole time, especially if they're singing.
Danny Price: You know, the music being loud or soft, like there's thoughts behind that. We have it loud enough where people can, you know, worship and enjoy and feel like if they sing, they're not like completely, like they'll be still be heard, but they're not going to be like, it's just their voice.
Shane: Mm-hmm.
Danny Price: There's thoughts behind a lot of this stuff. I think the reason that we do a lot of this is again, not to... create roadblocks and distractions for people. The reason we have amplified audio is not because we'd like to hear our own voices or we need to to be a rock, the rock guitar, you know, crazy like kiss show. It's because we want people to able to hear it and enjoy the music. And honestly, the people that are on stage doing all this stuff, they're,
Danny Price: it's a talent and gift that they have. They're trying to give back to the Lord. It's not something that they're trying to do for person. And Sarah's all about this. Sarah's very clear about this is not a performance.
Shane: Yeah, she's great at that.
Danny Price: This is not a concert. This is worship first and foremost. There are a lot of debates and thoughts about that, but just to clarify what you were saying, I was, I guess my point was,
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: you're not We're not winning them to a concert. We're winning them to a church service and to a body of believers and to the gospel. But that doesn't mean that we can't eliminate distractions. It doesn't have to be the most dry, stuffy room with you know you know super hard pews for it to be a true worshipful experience.
Danny Price: And that's okay.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah. And so, and I just think you got to be careful of where, because what I have found is everyone's line is that they've ever shown me is more their preference.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Which is, it's okay to have preferences.
Shane: It's,
Danny Price: That's fine.
Shane: Yeah, and that's okay.
Danny Price: It's just, yeah.
Shane: But I just think we got to be careful how hard we criticize those that do it differently. um yeah Outside of sin, I mean, obviously, yeah, we shouldn't be the like the world in that we shouldn't sin.
Shane: you know There shouldn't be any kind of sin involved with it, but, you know, and it shouldn't be...
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah.
Shane: you know, downplaying Jesus, but I, what, what is downplaying Jesus is a little different to me than, you know, I came from a church that had the bright lights, had the bubble ball, not, I mean, like, like the lights were on fully in the sanctuary and, you know, and there was, and it was very like a piano or whatever, but man, we had a lady that she loved to do her solo once a month.
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: And she, you know, and it was not a, ah upbeat, fun, like song, but it was very much featuring her voice.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And, and there was, you know, and so I, you know, there's lines of like, I, there are people that would have never criticized that, but I knew that lady and I knew her heart about it.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And so anyway, got to be careful just how hard we criticize the way people do it.
Danny Price: Yeah. No, and that... Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, no, I get it. um ah We could spend a lot of time on that question.
Danny Price: That's a good question.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Just for the sake of time's time' sake, I want to move forward really quick. um Just to get onto this, there's two more questions really quick. I know we're at 40 minutes already. Can I do church... on my own, with just with my family, just me and my family?
Danny Price: Or what if I feel closer, this is a rhetorical question, but what if I feel closer to God when I'm outside hiking or by myself in like silent meditation time? um do i Why do I need to be a part of a believer um a group of believers? why Should I even do that? Is that necessary?
Danny Price: I don't feel like doing that. what What would you tell someone if that's what they're kind of coming to you with?
Shane: Well, the first thing is most people that come to me that they're going to use what it's called the often called like the thief on the cross arguments. They're going to kind of point to, well, what if I lived on a deserted island with just my family?
Danny Price: Right. Yeah.
Shane: Well, okay, but you don't.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: So let's not go there. um So, you know, I would say, Sure. You get, could you, could you, and would you, could you be go to heaven and be Christ? Yes.
Shane: Yeah, you can. Is that what you're called to do? Does it buy, but you know, once again, go to back to the Bible.
Shane: Nowhere in the Bible do we see that. Um, and nowhere in the Bible do we see that as a, as you know, a prescription, the prescription is be in the fellowship of other believers.
Shane: And here's my reasoning why I would really challenge that.
Shane: there it It goes back to what I talked about, like me preaching, starting to preach more through books and even preaching this series where I have to go through all these doctrines. I have to challenge myself to preach things i wouldn't normally preach on my own.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: I have to research things i wouldn't normally do on my own. It it challenges me. So when you're with other people and when you're a part of a church, you're submitting to and ah another authority in your life that is is going to challenge you in areas you would not challenge yourself.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: um You would not push yourself. yeah um And it's going to encourage you in areas that you might... believe the lies of the enemy that you aren't good at. And you know, that kind So, so I just really believe that biblically you would have, I really can't think that anyone could ever show me biblically that they're not supposed to be a part of the church.
Shane: And as far as the, like, I'm, I feel much closer to God when I'm out on a hike or when I'm on my motorcycle sometimes.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Um, so what, um,
Danny Price: Not in a Harley. That's impossible. I'm just kidding.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah. But so what is my answer? Um, that's not, church isn't for you to feel closer to God necessarily.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Church is for, ah we just went back to, it's edification of all the believers.
Danny Price: Hmm. Ooh.
Danny Price: Interesting.
Shane: It's the evangelic evangelization. So how are you going to, you know, like you're supposed to evangelize people and, and, how and give them a place to be a part of fellowship. Um,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And then the exaltation of Christ, living out your faith.
Danny Price: It
Shane: So church, people get the idea that church is for them. That goes back to that consumer mentality. But um
Danny Price: it kind of is, but it kind of isn't. Yeah. It's, yeah. Interesting.
Shane: yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is for you. You benefit from it. But there again, so I benefit from my kids. I have grown so much from having kids. But if you're having kids for you, you're going to hate your life.
Danny Price: No. Mistake. Yeah. No. Mistake.
Shane: So yeah.
Danny Price: Don't do that.
Shane: You know, I, my kids are a lot more work, but sure. Do I receive benefits from it? And do I get blessings all all around from having kids? Absolutely. And I would say the same thing, you know, it goes with being a part of the church.
Shane: Yeah. You, you're going to be blessed and benefit from it, but it's not meant for just you.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Right. Yeah. Side question on that. What do you think about membership for churches? Do you, do you agree with that? Disagree? Just really quick hot take on that for you.
Shane: Yeah. Um, I sort of agree. Our, our culture is, It just doesn't mean anything in our culture. I think we, the truth is, and this is a very sad, there very few people in this church would actually submit themselves to our church to a point where they would accept our leadership's, um,
Shane: discipline or, or, or, yeah, very few people are going to do it So now in our culture today, most people see membership as meaning like, Hey, I get more of a say in things.
Danny Price: Or criticism or anything, yeah. yeah
Shane: They don't see membership as, Hey, I, yeah, I am a part of something bigger than me.
Danny Price: I get a vote, yeah.
Shane: And my job is is to contribute to that and submit to that. And,
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: Most people don't see it. yeah Do I think it's a good thing if we do it right? Absolutely. do i I think it's a good thing, but I don't think signing a piece of paper in today's culture means anything to most people.
Danny Price: Yeah, no, I would, I definitely agree with that. And that is unfortunate. It's hard to be.
Shane: Yeah, that's a whole nother topic.
Danny Price: Yeah, that's a whole other thing. um Last question really quick. And just, I didn't know if you had thoughts on this. What, what is one area that you want Mountain of View to grow in, in this next season um that you're, whether it's something that you're personally working on or just hoping that the body kind of like catches onto something that you've been like preaching for a while that you just are really wanting them to grow in as a whole.
Shane: um I would say, you know, um I think of it as... yeah all three of those e words I gave, I think i them and kind of kind like what Matt said, you know, the plane, you know, um, and really there's more than two wings, right?
Shane: There's the, there's the tail too, that keeps you straight.
Danny Price: Sure. Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Shane: So, so all three are really important. And if you grow too much in one, it's going to be a problem. I would say what I'm excited about right now is the exaltation is is worship.
Shane: And honestly, quite frankly, a lot of that is because of Sarah.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: Sarah's very gifted
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: and um her in her abilities in worship, but she also um has the heart that I like to see, and she understands what I was talking about as far as us living our lives out.
Shane: And um so it's probably one of the first times, not that we haven't had good worship leaders and all that, but the first time I feel...
Danny Price: There's a cultural shifting. Yeah.
Shane: Yeah, I feel like we're poised for for some real growth in the exaltation of of Christ in our, um just as a church in general.
Danny Price: That's cool.
Shane: um So that would be probably my big area right now.
Danny Price: Awesome. That's great. Yeah. Sarah's, I can't speak her praises highly enough. I mean, she's crushing it. She has got the best attitude, sweetheart, very good, very great leader.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Also not timid and not, you know, she's willing to make adjustments, call people out in an inappropriate way. Very, very good leader. So sorry if you're listening to this, you're doing such a great job.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: um Awesome. Sorry, guys, we're so late. We're 47 minutes. I mean, got to figure out, I guys got to have less questions that.
Shane: Well, I think on these topics I'm super passionate about, especially, um and and for those, also for listeners, I know when I get passionate, I can sound mad. Danny, Hannah, Danny's wife always tells me, dad, you got to calm down.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You sound like you're mad at everybody.
Danny Price: Fire and brimstone. No, it's really good.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: um It's fun to talk about this stuff. Again, we love that you guys are listening. Hope this is edifying for you. This is encouraging. This is interesting. Hopefully it's sparking some conversations or thoughts. um And it's an excellent addition just to what the message is covering. This goes in a little, some different directions and some different questions.
Danny Price: um That being said, again, please reach out to me or Shane if you guys have questions that you want answered. um Even if it doesn't necessarily relate to the message, but it's something from previous podcasts, I don't mind doing a callback quickly just to kind of go over something.
Danny Price: um And feel free to, you know, like I said, just to point things out. You're like, hey, i love how you talk about that. If you need, you know encouragement, maybe some critique. I'm hesitant because I don't want to open up the floodgates of critique, but if there's something that's bugging you, let me know.
Danny Price: I do want to hear about that at some level. Yeah. But yeah, we'll end then we'll end the the podcast. Hope you guys are enjoying it. Hopefully this is, again, we're having fun doing this. So we're just gonna keep doing it.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Hopefully it's hopefully it's benefiting somebody out there. So anyways, yeah, exactly.
Shane: For all three of you that are listening. Bye-bye.
Danny Price: So we enjoy you guys. We enjoy our three listeners. I'm just just kidding. um All right, we'll talk to you guys next week. Bye-bye.
Shane: hi bye
