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EP658: Thought Leader Genius Panel - Pete Roberts, Jen Sey & Michelle Watson - Why Founders Are Braver Than CEOs!
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“I worked at Levi’s for 23 years, worked my way all the way up the ladder from entry-level marketing assistant to brand president.”
“I needed to build a factory. And I didn’t have two nickels to rub together or a bucket to piss in but I did have a singleness of purpose to course-correct this thing.”
“We were very different when we first came out and all the other brands looked exactly the same.”
Entrepreneurs don’t just start businesses; they start revolutions. Founders are driven by a deep sense of purpose, an almost reckless determination to build something that doesn’t yet exist. Unlike traditional CEOs who inherit an established structure, founders have to make every decision, carry every risk, and fight through uncertainty with nothing but conviction. The difference? Founders break the rules to create new ones, while CEOs operate within the system to maximize efficiency.
Today’s guests prove that true leadership requires courage. From launching brands that challenge industry norms to rebuilding domestic manufacturing from the ground up, these founders have faced rejection, controversy, and even financial ruin to stay true to their mission. They share stories of taking radical risks, navigating cancel culture, and making decisions that CEOs in corporate boardrooms would never dare to make. The lesson? Bravery in business isn’t optional—it’s the cost of true innovation.
Jen Sey: Former Levi’s President turned founder of XX-XY Athletics, a brand challenging cultural norms and championing women’s sports.
Pete Roberts: Founder of Origin USA, a company reviving American manufacturing through relentless grit and self-funded growth.
Michelle Watson: Founder of MICHI, redefining activewear for women over 40 by prioritizing longevity, strength, and purpose-driven design.
Visit https://www.eCircleAcademy.com and book a success call with Nicky to take your practice to the next level.
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Transcript
Brands Influencing Culture
00:00:03
Speaker
We have to change the culture, and I believe in the power of brands to do that. Legislation, politics, they're all downstream from culture. I needed to build a factory, and I thought about those stories. Immigrants that came here unified and shaped America through through New England's factories, through industrialization.
00:00:20
Speaker
Just because something looks good doesn't mean that it's shallow. We can really care about female form and want to accentuate and flatter it as much as possible so you feel beautiful, but then your body's functioning as well.
00:00:36
Speaker
Welcome to the Thought Leader Revolution with Nikki Ballou. Join the revolution. There's never been a better time in history to speak your truth, find your freedom, and make your fortune. Each week, we interview the world's top thought leaders and learn the secrets of how they built a six to seven figure practice.
00:00:54
Speaker
This episode has been brought to you by ecircleacademy.com, the proven system to add six to seven figures a year to your thought leader practice.
00:01:04
Speaker
Welcome to another exciting episode the podcast, The Thought Leader Revolution. I'm your host, Nicky Ballou, and boy, do we have a special episode lined up for you today. Today's episode features not one, not two, but three guests on a panel, plus myself.
00:01:18
Speaker
um These three guests are... cause-driven CEOs who run powerful apparel brands that are about more than just the underlying business. They're about doing something incredible and amazing out in the world.
00:01:34
Speaker
um I'm going to briefly introduce you to them, but really their own introduction is going to be far more powerful.
Introduction of Cause-driven CEOs
00:01:40
Speaker
Jen Say, former chief marketing officer and president of Levi's and now the founder XXXY.
00:01:50
Speaker
And boy, your company's been in the news a lot lately, Jen. That's for darn sure. Pete Roberts, who is the amazing founder of Origin USA. And I got to tell you, ah Origin USA has got to be one of the most incredible and amazing companies out there because you guys brought apparel manufacturing in the USA and you made it cool again.
00:02:17
Speaker
And that's pretty darn awesome. And Michelle Watson, who is the founder and CEO of Missiony.
00:02:28
Speaker
And I got to tell you, um this is a company that is ah all about business. creating incredible, powerful, ah active wear and athletic wear for women, especially women past midlife.
00:02:43
Speaker
ah And they're all about having women be seen and having their power in the world be something that they step into powerfully and comfortably.
00:02:54
Speaker
Folks, thanks for coming on the show. Great all have you here. Thanks. Thank you for having us. Yeah, you bet. So, I believe that the three of you guys run companies that in a way remind me of, you know, the opposite of James Dean's famous movie, Rebel Without a Cause, because you guys are rebels with a cause, right?
00:03:17
Speaker
And you've all built powerful brands by capturing the essence of your customers' imagination and the essence of their souls.
Jen Say's Journey and Advocacy
00:03:30
Speaker
And maybe, jen if you'd like to start, tell me the story of, you know, why? Why did you choose to start a brand new company?
00:03:41
Speaker
And why this particular message that you've put out there into the world? And why now? Yeah. Well, XXXY Athletics is less than a year old.
00:03:53
Speaker
um am i Are we the youngest brand on that? um then yeah I don't know how long your guys brands have been around, but we're 11 months old tomorrow. So, you know, really in the infancy stages, we're the only athletic brand that's standing up for the protection of women's sports.
00:04:10
Speaker
and you know, the short version of why I did it, I was an elite gymnast as a child, 16 years, seven seven years on the national team, 1986 national champion. So I recognize the value of athletics for young women, not just in terms of winning trophies, but character development, all the real reasons you put kids into sport, perseverance, because, you know, how many people get to be and Olympian? Not very many.
00:04:35
Speaker
Unfortunately, my training environment was rife with abuse, and I really struggled when I left the sport for a good two decades. and um I wrote a book in 2008, I was 20 years out of the sport at that point, that was really the first account, the first first-person account of the emotional and physical abuse and and sexual abuse in the sport.
00:04:55
Speaker
um that didn't go super well for me. i mean i mean, people outside of the athletic community were shocked and stunned, but not that surprised. um But,
00:05:06
Speaker
you know, my own teammates, my own teammates from the US s team, USA Gymnastics, the US OPC, they all really worked overtime to smear me. So I'm not really a stranger to, you know, saying something true that gets you punished in the public eye.
00:05:22
Speaker
That was a lot harder in 2008 when yeah I was new to social media, we all were didn't know how brutal that could be. then and then you know From there, I went on and I was already working at Levi's. I worked at Levi's for 23 years, worked my way all the way up the ladder from entry-level marketing assistant to brand president.
00:05:40
Speaker
um and As you mentioned, I was very outspoken in San Francisco of all places about lockdowns and school closures. And again, said a very unpopular thing. But this time it was on a much bigger stage, not just in the world of sport, but the world at large had gone mad.
00:05:57
Speaker
And that didn't go super well for me. um I ended up resigning from Levi's two years into that advocacy. And what I found as I went out to look for a job was I was fully canceled.
00:06:08
Speaker
Like there was no getting a job in corporate America again. In fact, when I would interview, the repeated question was, will you apologize for what you've done? ah Meaning, you know, advocate for poor children to get to go to school. And I said, absolutely not. I won't apologize. I was right about everything.
00:06:26
Speaker
um And so I quickly realized i was going to have to figure out another path forward. And necessity is the mother of invention. I came up with this idea for this brand as a former athlete. And, you know, if I dare pat myself on the back enough, a world-class, you know, brand builder and marketer having...
00:06:42
Speaker
really driven the turnaround at Levi's that led to a very successful IPO. So, and at this point, I don't, yeah once you're canceled once, twice, like what's a third time, doesn't really matter. And I just, I recognize, I'm sure these guys will say the same thing.
00:06:57
Speaker
You know, brands really can influence the culture, just like music, just like art, just like movies. And Not a single brand in the space was standing up for the protection of women's sports. And they all pretend Nike being the biggest offender here to champion female athletes.
00:07:11
Speaker
And they really treat women with astonishing disregard. So I felt like it was time. i rolled the dice a bit. You know, obviously, in the last few months, the conversation around protecting women's sports has changed with Trump in office.
00:07:25
Speaker
um but I was sort of seeing where the puck was going. And I knew that the vast majority of Americans agreed with us, but they were too afraid to stand up and say it. And I felt like we could provide that encouragement.
00:07:35
Speaker
You know, we could make it cool to stand up for women. And I think... That's kind of what we're seeing is it sort of opens the Overton window. People see the brand and they're like, oh, I'm allowed to say that.
00:07:46
Speaker
OK, I'll wear the T-shirt, you know. So that's kind of where we are. We're 11 months in It's going really well, exceeding our expectations. And, you know, we keep fighting.
Cultural Change in Women's Sports
00:07:56
Speaker
So, Jen.
00:07:59
Speaker
I saw a video clip of President Trump signing the executive order banning men from women's sports. And I noticed you were standing behind him when he did that. yeah you know And he he looked back at you ah as he did that. What was that like for you to be in the room when it happened?
00:08:20
Speaker
That was crazy. I mean, I got invited like 12 hours before it happened. So it's weird to get an email in your inbox from the White House. At first I thought it was phishing or something like I didn't think it was real.
00:08:31
Speaker
um But there just haven't been that many of us standing up and pushing back on this. So, you know, when I think about it, I've been a very public figure pushing back, you along with Riley Gaines, obviously, and a bunch of other women. But you know It's a pretty small select group. So I guess when I thought about i wasn't that surprised that I would have been ah on the list to be there. So of course I accepted.
00:08:52
Speaker
um There were a lot of women in the room, most of whom I knew because you know it's not been that many of us that have been fighting this fight. But then they placed me right behind them, which was crazy. i was like sitting in the audience and someone came and got me and said, no, no, you have to stand here.
00:09:07
Speaker
And you're right. At one point he turns around and he handed me his papers, which I still have sitting on my desk, which is basically just a list of the people he had to thank. It's really just a list. Like his whole speech, I can promise you, was off the cuff because all I have here is a list of basically congressmen, congresspeople.
00:09:25
Speaker
So it was kind of crazy. All I could think was the world is changing. This is fantastic. We are not done yet. And I think yeah maybe we'll come back to it. Let someone else talk. Like this is so just the like end of the beginning of this fight. um Executive orders have their limits.
00:09:41
Speaker
The sports landscape is incredibly fractured in terms of its governance. And I've been fighting governing bodies for 20 years. So we're far from done. But I think, He's done everything he can to hand us the baton, we the people, and now we have to stand up and make our voices heard. And then the governing bodies will have no choice but to change. But I think i think we're many years away from this getting solved.
00:10:08
Speaker
I agree with you. and i think the next step is ah to push for legislation at a national level and at a state level, state by state, county by county.
00:10:18
Speaker
But nationally, i think the wind is at your back. And yeah you probably have some... ah some real fighters on your side, people like Nancy Mace ah yeah in in the House, Marsha Blackburn in the Senate, those folks will ah will step forward and step forward strongly. And I think there's a bunch of men that are going to stand up for you. And I'll say this, I interviewed a friend of yours, Arwen Becker, last week. ah yeah Wonderful lady, super lady. And here's something that you know she and I talked about.
00:10:53
Speaker
It's time for men to stand up for you ladies too. You know, it just can't be just the women doing it. It's our it's our bloody job for crying out loud. You know, provide a protector. The protector part's got to start showing up a bit more on the men's side. So love hear that. Well, I think it's standing up for the truth. I mean, doesn't everybody care about truth? Like, it's like, come on.
00:11:13
Speaker
bile Is this standing up for literally biological reality? There are men and there are women. Sex is binary and women deserve their own sports, spaces, privacy, safety, fairness, all of it. Like, why? Of course, men should care about the truth. Because if we can be made to utter these ridiculous lies, then we can be made to believe anything.
00:11:33
Speaker
And that's what I find so alarming and infuriating because any lie is possible. We further this one. So not through me this This is ah part of Saul Alinsky's playbook from a book he wrote many years ago called Rules for Radicals.
00:11:51
Speaker
And it was basically all about making people ah believe that a lie is the truth and a truth is a lie. that's also out of George Orwell's 1984. So there's no question. Yeah. ah that we've got to all stand up for that. But your brand is not only a great business, it's a movement.
Purpose Behind Brands
00:12:09
Speaker
And I think that's a big part of what you're doing. And I think it's a wonderful and beautiful thing. So yeah, thank you. I yeah, I would agree. And you know, there's so much written about purpose driven brands. And I think there was a good 10 year stretch where every brand was like, Oh, shit, I better figure out my purpose, like only purpose driven brands succeed. And they sort of like paste a purpose on because I don't think you have to be a purpose driven brand. I think you can be a brand that makes an outstanding product. And that's fine.
00:12:35
Speaker
um I just had observed in the marketplace, and you know, athletic apparel is growing like this, which Michelle knows it's the fastest growing category. And um in apparel. And there wasn't a sink. there There were all these brands lying and pretending to champion female athletes and not touching this issue with a 10 foot bowl, which is the biggest issue facing female athletes today. So it just felt to me like a really unique and brand positioning that would draw people in. But at the end of the day, we have to make great product. And most people come to us for the mission. They're so excited and relieved that there's a brand willing to say this, but they come back because the product is outstanding. If we just had like a crappy merch brand making dumb t-shirts that wasn't high quality, they would. I mean, this is true for all of us, right? No one's going to come back.
00:13:20
Speaker
ah So, you know, we're in this for the long haul and we're going to make outstanding product. Amen. Amen. amen Okay, um let's move on to Pete.
Pete Roberts and American Manufacturing
00:13:32
Speaker
So, Pete, um I'm going to ask you the same question, you know. So, why Origin USA, right? Why your particular message and why now?
00:13:43
Speaker
Sure, i mean that's an easy one. I'll regurgitate a few things, but first to Jen's point. um I do have a daughter who did play multiple sports in Maine, where yeah i know i boy the governor lives ah two miles down the road from me.
00:14:02
Speaker
um I got a few messages after that whole incident the other day, like, hey, when are you running for governor? Because in the past. um And she's out of play. I'll move down from Canada if you do it.
00:14:14
Speaker
And I'll yeah be an unpaid volunteer for you for six months. Yeah. Yeah. So. um important ah to raise student athletes in my household. Both my kids are now playing college sports. So oh great as far as as, far as, you know, just to dovetail onto Jen's statement of purpose-driven brands, I mean, the power of purpose is what has driven Origin a hundred percent ah from, from day one. and And really for me, it was a realization ah that we didn't have the capabilities anymore in my community to make things.
00:14:49
Speaker
And, you know, I grew up listening to my mom, Greek, listening to my papa talk about, you know, working at the tanneries in Peabody, Massachusetts at eight years old and my, and my great first generation American off the boat, I guess you could say working in, in Francis Cabot Lowell's ah spinning mill in Lowell, Massachusetts as a Lowell Mill girl. So I i heard these stories. i heard them romanticize about these stories growing up. And And to Jen's defining moment, which is what I call it, um you know, that she has gone through the last couple of years and why she's on a burn the boats mindset to do what's right, it's similar to me.
00:15:31
Speaker
I had a defining moment where um I was trying to make product. I couldn't find manufacturing in the USA. And so I started importing. And i I discovered that my manufacturer,
00:15:44
Speaker
in Pakistan was ripping off my intellectual property and selling it to other brands. And um and I came to this realization while competing ah actually in Abu Dhabi in ah in a jujitsu championship, which is like the Olympics for jujitsu, which is a very small sport. It's grappling. You submit each other through arm locks and choke holes.
00:16:04
Speaker
And I was there before a quarterfinal match, and I saw somebody walk by with a thing I had designed with a different logo on the back. um And instantly I know that I had to do something about it. So 12 hours on an airplane ah back to back to nowhere, Maine, i landed and decided I needed to build a factory.
00:16:26
Speaker
And I didn't have, you know, I say two nickels to rub together or a bucket to piss in, but I did have a singleness of purpose to course correct this thing. And I thought about those stories that my papua, my great yaya used to tell me about how New England's mills were built. And immigrants that came here unified, melted together, and and shaped America through through New England's factories, through industrialization.
00:16:54
Speaker
So I called up a few friends, got their chainsaws out. We started cutting down some trees in the woods of Maine, had some eastern white pines sawed out into timbers, ah much like what you're looking at with Michelle's photo behind her, except much smaller.
00:17:09
Speaker
i We found two old L.L. Bean Singer sewing machines, ah like World War II era, and we we started sewing stuff. um You know, and and it was ah it was like a crime of passion. Like, this had to be done.
00:17:26
Speaker
ah So i put I put myself in a corner where the only way was forward ah to win, and through a sheer force of will and the support of family and friends, um we started to make something of it, I think.
00:17:40
Speaker
another Another point that I discovered after we after we started up a generator because we didn't have power to our little factory in the woods was we didn't actually have access to fabric.
00:17:51
Speaker
And after this little factory was built and I had people hired, I discovered that we would have to import the fabric from China or Pakistan, um which you know which punched me right in the liver.
00:18:05
Speaker
was hook to my vitals. it was a hook hook to my vitals and You know, so I, again, went on the hunt, ah searching ah in ah in New England's abandoned mills, and i and I found, I discovered an old loom. It was one left behind after the World Trade Organization um came into effect, and most of the machinery went overseas. So rescued this old loom, found an old timer.
00:18:30
Speaker
um Lenny, he passed a couple years ago, found an old timer to help me refurbish it. and we started weaving fabric. And that was the origin of you know of my journey.
00:18:40
Speaker
Of course, now we're you know three factories later, 500 employees and one of the fastest growing brands in America. And i would say menswear more than anything. um We're truly bringing it back.
00:18:52
Speaker
ah We've been self-funded. We'll never go public. I'll never sell to private equity. I'll never sell to venture capital. We will do it 100% the way we're doing it and it'll it'll stay that way. um so Yeah, man, that's my mission. And that is ah that is the power of purpose and in my life. And we are a purpose-driven brand.
00:19:10
Speaker
um And I think our our customers um have appreciated that. And our early adopters are still with us. And our first five employees are still our first five employees. So.
00:19:22
Speaker
Wow. When did you start it? I'm curious. two thousand 2000. Yeah, 2011 is when we started the brand. We built the factory in 2012. Okay. And when did you sell your first product? first Well, the first product we sold 2011 also, that was the first imported product. Yeah. And my big idea was to basically to, as a competitor in jujitsu, was to manufacture the jujitsu gi pants like jeans.
00:19:50
Speaker
And I was, you know, i was always a ah blue jean fanatic. thats yeah And so that's how we ended up also making jeans. Cool. I think 20, 30 years from now, people are going to be talking about wearing a pair of Origins the way they used to talk about wearing a pair of Levi's. I hope so.
00:20:08
Speaker
And what blew me away, Pete, and I watched Joe Rogan a lot, right? And he had such and such guest on. And I don't know what the hell, I don't remember what they were talking about, but I remember he started talking about ah jeans and boots.
00:20:30
Speaker
It just came out of nowhere. And he said, look, if you want a good pair of jeans and boots made right here in the USA, you should go get yourself pair of origins. And I think Joe just kind of did one of these and put up his feet with the boots on. He said, these are my origin jeans. These are origin boots. And I texted you. i don't know if you remember. I texted you after. I said, yo, Rogan was just repping your brand, bro. He just gave you like a five-minute shout out.
00:20:52
Speaker
And you're like, all right. That's awesome. He's done that a lot. He's a big big advocate um of the brand and and it's been great. He's really had an impact on the awareness of the brand.
00:21:03
Speaker
Yeah. I think... A big part of why your brand appeals to men these days is because the last 10, 20 years, this crazy culture that is trying to convince women that, hey, these men are women and they should be allowed into their safe spaces is also trying to convince men that the very fact of being born a man means there's something wrong with you. You're bad, you're evil, you're you're an oppressor.
00:21:32
Speaker
And a lot of the younger men in particular have had enough of that. So when they hear voices out there in the culture that stand up for things that appeal to the masculine psyche, they gravitate toward those voices. That's one of the reasons why so many young men voted for Donald Trump.
00:21:50
Speaker
That's why Trump won the Hispanic men's vote, which has never been done by a Republican before. And I think, Pete, that's why Origin has got so many men buying your products.
00:22:01
Speaker
Because you actually uplift men. You like men. You say, hey, men, you're great. And these are some products that'll make you feel prouder, so stand a little taller, feel a little better about being a man and being an American man wearing American clothes made right here in America.
00:22:19
Speaker
That's what I believe. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. are Yeah, I would agree with Jen on, like, you've got to do the right things for the right reasons, and the and the truth will set you free. You know, like, that's – we happen to do men's because we started in jiu-jitsu, and I just – you know, I'm um um'm a man, but it's – I don't look at it as gender-specific for what we're doing. I think the mission really outweighs – we're working on a women's jean we're going to come out with in the fall, and, you know, we're looking at some other things. So I think giving Americans –
00:22:49
Speaker
um what they need built 100% on an American supply chain without compromise and from American soil. And we exhaust all efforts to do that. um And I do think men are proud to to wear what we make. And we've got a lot of women who love it too. They'll squeeze into the into the men's cut jeans and they're just as happy. So um I think there's just a movement of awareness. And i think um I think America is becoming aware. I think they have been, but I think, ah I think some things are really starting to happen now that ah hopefully will course correct, i believe, what's been lost, outsourced, given away, sold away over the last 30 years.
00:23:36
Speaker
So, you know, one of the hoodies that you sent me was an extra small. I gave it to my lady and and it it fits her and she really likes it. So Jen, I got to like put in a big order with you guys for her next. so and and then And then Michelle for you as well. So Michelle.
00:23:54
Speaker
Let's move over to you. And Jenna, by the way, I'm glad you asked Pete questions. Guys, you can ask each other questions. just Don't just wait on me. If something, you know, someone says sounds cool to you, you want to comment or you want to ask him a question, feel free to jump in. It's a panel.
00:24:08
Speaker
So Michelle, same question for you. Why? Why your company? Why your message? And why now?
Michelle Watson on Empowering Women
00:24:16
Speaker
Well, first of all, I have a great appreciation that you guys are fellow athletes. um Gymnastics was my favorite sport growing up and all the men in my life are into martial arts like Muay Thai. I trained martial arts as a kid and and they all love UFC. So um jujitsu is the most effective. and So I'm always gonna, my husband and I have a joke that our daughter will have to have to take jujitsu because it's absolute essential art to learn.
00:24:46
Speaker
and And so I grew up playing competitive golf as well as competitive ski racing. And so um I have an appreciation for both masculinity and femininity. And I'll talk a lot about how Michi really is like one of the most feminine activewear brands. I started it in New York in 2010. So I'm the oldest one here.
00:25:09
Speaker
And we'll talk more about women over 40. But um when I started, it was really about going against the grain in terms of what the offer was. Everybody was wearing the exact same product. It was a sea of sameness.
00:25:21
Speaker
And I really wanted to empower women to embrace an active lifestyle. So while other brands stood for athletes and sport, I was more about fitness and integrating movement and anything to keep you moving in your lifestyle.
00:25:37
Speaker
So was designing for Ralph Lauren in New York and i left and the next day started the brand out of my New York City apartment, really just ah doing everything on my own to start, sewing all the samples myself.
00:25:49
Speaker
And it was going to be really important for me to keep the manufacturing in North America. And because it was such a long time ago, i really wanted to find flatlock machines and I couldn't find them in the east.
00:26:02
Speaker
And this is this is really before there were flatlock machines in the east. So I decided I'd go back to Canada because I'm originally Canadian. And to me, it just keeping North American manufacturing was really important. didn't matter if it was American or Canadian. um i look I've looked at lots of factories in LA and that could be a great place for manufacturing in the future.
00:26:22
Speaker
But I found incredible manufacturing in Toronto. And we still manufacture over 90% of our products in in Canada today. So um really, like the the cause is about empowering women. And over time, it's it's really evolved ah to help women embrace their individuality.
00:26:43
Speaker
and And now I really want to make that big shift to help women over 40 reclaim their power. because it's so important for aging women to strength train and to prioritize longevity over chasing youth.
00:26:56
Speaker
And that ah women trying to be to still be what they were back in the day and worrying about how they look, every wrinkle, sagging skin, it's it's really about taking what you've got, working with it, really prioritizing um the nutrition as as well as the the movement that comes with strength training so that we can be training for vitality and longevity versus just aesthetics.
00:27:24
Speaker
You will have the byproduct of a great aesthetic if you're if you're doing your best, but ah but I've always been a champion of um of working out for your health rather than for aesthetics alone.
00:27:37
Speaker
When you look at Michi, yes, we have a very high aesthetic, but also a very high function. which is a bit of ah a mind's teaser because a lot of people see the aesthetic and think, oh, you can't sweat in that or you can't wear that for for the for a workout.
00:27:52
Speaker
But then when you put it to the test, it truly performs. And I think the reason i i I'm very passionate about this shift is that we are very different when we first came out um and all the other brands looked exactly the same.
00:28:07
Speaker
And a lot of them shifted aesthetically took a lot of inspiration, which can be ah frustrating, but let's flip it and make it flattering and and then say, well, we have to keep coming up with with something better. And it's not about the designs that that get taken and ah ripped off and duplicated, but really it's about creating that brand with something behind it and then creating the c culture to go with it.
00:28:35
Speaker
So at the end of the day, it's really about um putting out less products into the world, but better products. So there's like the double meaning when we talk about longevity in women, it's also about the longevity in the clothing.
00:28:49
Speaker
When we talk about women that are adaptable and versatile ah and self-reliant, the clothes are the same. Like they're very versatile, you can use them for a lot of functions.
00:28:59
Speaker
So really there's that really solving the problem of time and space. and And then women are not really portrayed ah that great when they get beyond 40, but so many women are out there really changing that perspective.
00:29:15
Speaker
And I really want it to be that you look at a 50-year-old woman, and a lot of them out there are 60-year-old women, and you say, wow, I want to be like her. like That's something to aspire to rather than, oh, my God, I'm going to be 45.
00:29:28
Speaker
forty five I'm going to be 50. my life's over. um and And after having kids, like a lot of women have kids. trouble getting back a lot of their self-esteem and their identity. And I want to be part of that movement to help women reclaim that power because we get so much more confident as we get older. We stop caring what people think. And and yeah, we can become more invisible. Like people aren't noticing us as much as they noticed us in the past, but you know what, who cares?
00:29:57
Speaker
Let's get noticed because of our personalities, because of our energy, because of the things that we're doing in the world. So I think there's there's a lot of um really important stories to be told.
00:30:09
Speaker
So, Michelle, you know, when I was growing up, I was a kid, my father used to tell me a woman doesn't even really become a woman until she's at least 40.
Embracing Age and Strength
00:30:19
Speaker
that's That's when all the youth gets beaten out of her. 57.
00:30:22
Speaker
I'm fifty seven You've met Teresa, my lady, Michelle. she's She's my age. I think she's stunning for any age, honestly. And I i i can't imagine being with somebody, I don't know, 20 years, 25 years younger than her because I don't think I could even get along with them. I don't think we could relate to one another.
00:30:43
Speaker
you know there's There's something that happens when a woman reaches um a certain age, a certain level of maturity, a certain level of wisdom that I believe makes...
00:30:55
Speaker
your message and your brand particularly relevant, especially when you speak about the importance of prioritizing strength training, prioritizing ah longevity, prioritizing health over looking good.
00:31:09
Speaker
And I was wondering if you might, you know, expand on that a little bit. Well, I think what we we don't need to make them mutually exclusive. Just because you look good doesn't mean that that you don't you're not prioritizing and like following all of these habits for a different reason. So I think ah with Michi, the two exist at the same time. And that's the same with leadership. Like a lot of times we have to have command with the most delicate touch. Like we have to do two things at the same time. And I think that's an important aspect of aging.
00:31:41
Speaker
If we're going to be prioritizing strength training and creatine, protein, whatever, however we structure our our wellness regime.
00:31:52
Speaker
My wife just started taking creatine three days. Oh, but amazing. That's awesome. I finally convinced her start taking creatine, but yeah, she just walked in from strength training.
00:32:04
Speaker
yeah We were 16 years old and it's it is true. We just both turned 46 She's going to be a huge fan of your brand when I tell her about it. Oh, thank you. And my husband will be a big fan of yours.
00:32:18
Speaker
um Yeah, so I think that um just because something looks good doesn't mean that it's shallow. A lot of times it does, but ah really i want to kind of blow people's minds in the way that the two things can exist, that we can really care about ah female form and want to accentuate and flatter it as much as possible so you feel beautiful.
00:32:38
Speaker
But then your body's functioning as well. And I want women to be proud that their body still works, that that they're strong so they can go surfing, so that they can still ski without knee injuries.
00:32:50
Speaker
Like it's it's it's amazing, yeah, when women can lift their kids. Like there's there's so much that um we don't think about when we're obsessing about, oh, I don't want to bulk up if I do, if I lift over three pounds. And and you see that shift with a lot of lot of the top ah trainers that always promoted skinny.
00:33:11
Speaker
you so You start to see them using heavier pound heavier pound weights, which is an interesting shift. a I think it's slowly happening. um And yeah, and I say i think um It's just about like being able to embrace two things and and not just say that because it's um like, what does longevity look like like? We can make it look aesthetically pleasing, so we can also make it glamorous. And a lot of times if people when people get into something, they're usually attracted, maybe for the wrong reasons at first, but we want to make it make it last, make it a movement, not just a trend. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:51
Speaker
You know, uh, Teresa's trainer, um, is a Canadian national bikini, uh, fitness champion. Her name's, uh, Lindsay Martins and Lindsay in the off season weighs 178 pounds, man, you know, and she looks amazing. Like Lindsay's drop dead gorgeous. And when she's on stage, she's 140 pounds, 142 pounds.
00:34:12
Speaker
forty pounds hundred and, forty two pounds um and Part of what Lindsay talks about with the women that she trains is stop looking at the number on the scale and start looking at how you feel.
00:34:26
Speaker
Start looking at how much physical strength and energy you have throughout the day. ah And don't worry if the scale says 140 150.
00:34:36
Speaker
you know, worry, how strong am I? How much ah functional power do I have day to day doing tasks? How much energy do I have going through what I go through? And she posts a lot about this on social media. So I think what you're doing is really, really cool. And I think there's ah quite a few, um quite a few folks I can introduce you to who are like top trainers in the Toronto area that are older women,
00:35:00
Speaker
over 45, even over 50 that are speaking your message out there in the world. So I think it would be a ah good thing for you guys to know about each other. Thank you.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, you bet. So um let me ask the next question. So Jen, You've spoken about this a bit, but I'd like you to go a little bit more deeply
Truth and Threats in Women's Sports
00:35:23
Speaker
into it. What does your message mean to you?
00:35:27
Speaker
Why is it important to you? And why do you think you've been able to touch something at the core of the soul of your customer with that message? And by the way, you guys, if you have comments about this, please jump in. If you've got additional questions, please jump in and interact with Jen. I don't want it to just be me.
00:35:47
Speaker
It's interesting, i I will answer your question, but Michelle talked about how this brand her brand is very much built around the idea of fitness. Ours is very much built around competitive athletes. And you know I think many of the brands um addressing women have they started kind of after you but it's become very much about fitness and in fact sometimes they're not even doing fitness they're like lounging around drinking coffee I'm like you know and i was a competitive athlete and and the brands that really are about competitive athletics
00:36:22
Speaker
have never really made great traction with women, even though women compete at the same rates now that men do growing up in youth and adolescence and into college, thanks to Title IX.
00:36:34
Speaker
It took years, but you know women are now competing. And women's sports is just having a moment. I mean, there's professional ice hockey leagues for women now. Professional soccer franchises are opening everywhere.
00:36:46
Speaker
um You know, Caitlin Clark, everybody knows about Caitlin Clark bringing in crowds women have never seen. Jersey sales like up a thousand percent of any female basketball player ever. So, ah you know, my favorite, Simone Biles, most watched athlete in the summer games, 27 years old, won gold, like in gymnastics, a sport that's been said to be only for 14 year olds. So,
00:37:09
Speaker
You know, I'm not saying it's only competitive athletes that wear our product. I'm saying that's what our brand positioning is built around. It's around that competitive spirit. um And, you know, women in their 40s, older, I turned 56 yesterday, we were competitive athletes. We still have that competitor's ire. That's what I call it. That's how we approach life. We don't want to ohm on the mat all day. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, Michelle. We don't want to accept where we are. We want to be better.
00:37:38
Speaker
um And so we're really, we built a point of view around that. Now, why this matters to me, I think first and foremost is what I said earlier, which is the truth matters and the truth always matters. And up until, you know, not that long ago, we all knew men and women were different.
00:37:52
Speaker
And now suddenly we're pretending that sex is a binary and men and women are not different and their bodies are the same. That's not true. So I wanted to build a brand based in truth. And I just, you know, i have benefited immeasurably from having had the opportunity starting in the 70s, well into the late 80s to be a competitive female athlete.
00:38:14
Speaker
And my belief, I believe very strongly that if we continue down this path, there will be no women's sports anymore. The minute a male breaks the barrier of women's competition, we don't actually have women's sports anymore.
00:38:27
Speaker
So that barrier has been broken and we need to rebuild it. um there you know If this continues, there's no reason, and in fact, somebody said it the other day on Piers Morgan, there's there's no reason to have separate categories.
00:38:39
Speaker
Just have one category because we just mixed it all up already anyway. So I believe the very... future of women's sports is at stake. And as is someone who very very much personally benefited from that, despite the challenges I faced and the abuse in the sport, I benefited immeasurably.
00:38:58
Speaker
The discipline, the perseverance, the belief that I could do anything if I set my mind to it And if I fell down, I learned to get back up again and keep going. Only that's why we put our children in sports, not to win a gold medal at the Olympics. I mean, a few kooky parents do it for the gold medal, but they're they're clueless. They don't understand how rare that is. We do it so our children learn to be resilient. And certainly we see right now in the world that many practices in play are anti-resilience.
00:39:25
Speaker
um in terms of how we're raising our children, the helicopter parenting and, you know, all of it anti, you know, the safe spaces, all of that is anti-resilience building and children. And so, you know, I love women's sports. I love female athletes.
00:39:39
Speaker
um I love the truth even more. And so, you know, but but but I want to be clear. Our mission is to protect women's sports, but it's really to celebrate female athletes. If this issue gets solved, I've still got a brand proposition here.
00:39:52
Speaker
I've been standing up for female athletes to train free from abuse for 20 years. um And they are not free from abuse yet, let me be clear. In fact, the reports have gone up fourfold um in the last six years since there is actually a law now, the Safe Sport Act, intended to protect female athletes from abuse and the abuse is through the roof. It's gotten worse, not better. So even with legislation, to go to your earlier point,
00:40:18
Speaker
it doesn't end. We have to change the culture. i And I believe in the power of brands to do that and um to influence, you know, legislation, politics, they're all downstream from culture.
00:40:29
Speaker
And the whole reason that people are sitting and nodding and saying what I think are dumb things like trans women are biological women is because the culture has been seized upon. The language has been seized upon.
00:40:42
Speaker
They're humans worthy of dignity and respect, but women, it is compassionate to stand up for women and women deserve their own sports and spaces. So it's really not complicated. And I just, you know, as I was trying to figure out what I was going to do, there were a million things,
00:40:56
Speaker
A million you know people were telling me run for office, which sounds like the most horrible thing on the planet to me. I don't know if if you're going to embark on that in Maine, Pete.
00:41:09
Speaker
But wanted to do what I'm good at, what brings me joy. And this just combined all of those you know those things. you know my My love of competitive athletics, of brand building, of storytelling. I've written two books. I've made two films.
00:41:25
Speaker
um It just seemed to combine all of it. And i I tend to leap before I think too much, ah which it sounds like is kind of what you did, Pete, in starting your business. Isn't that the only way? Well, I mean, if you think about it too much, you're never going to do anything. You can always talk yourself out of it. So I was like, let's do this.
00:41:45
Speaker
and So here we are making a making a run of it. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's that's why I did it. That's why it matters to me. And I knew no one else would do it. I mean, who else is going to do this? Like you literally have to be thrice canceled to take a run at this because, um, this issue is the firestorm. This is the thing. Like as much as I've been thrown under the bus and, you know, harassed and threatened, it's nothing compared to what I get now. yeah and It's nothing. I mean, we get threats to our workplace, you know, kill all the employees, bomb the workplace. Like, the it's people, it's nuts.
00:42:24
Speaker
And I just keep saying it's compassionate to stand up for women and girls. You know, that that where's that where's the compassion for women and girls? That's all that we're doing. And I think, again, we'll come around on this, but right now it's very controversial. Yeah.
00:42:39
Speaker
um I hope you've got great security at your offices, in your in your factories, because that's um that's something to take seriously, 1,000%. You are...
Leadership, Courage, and Integrity
00:42:51
Speaker
um you are one of the bravest people I've ever met. And I've had the privilege of meeting some extremely brave people in my life. One of the things you said to me in one of our past interviews together, jen and don't know if you remember, you said to me that most CEOs like to talk about having integrity and courage, but most of them are absolute and utter cowards.
00:43:13
Speaker
And you are one of the first people to have the ovaries to come out and say that because most CEOs just don't want to attract negative attention. All they want to do is do as much business as they can, make as much money as they can without anybody getting too pissed off at them.
00:43:34
Speaker
And it takes somebody with extreme courage to invite the controversy that you've invited. Go out there, stand up for something that matters and build a beautiful business and a beautiful brand. So bravo. Thanks.
00:43:47
Speaker
I do think there's a distinction between founders and C-suiters or CEOs. And, you know, Michelle, you've obviously worked in established companies. And I do think founders are are braver, but...
00:43:58
Speaker
I don't think they're less greedy, necessarily, on average. I think many are. And um I think the key is, you know, people used to say it all the time. Like, how do you retain that startup mindset? How do you um fail fast? And all those Silicon Valley phrases. Yeah.
00:44:14
Speaker
which what's this Mark Zuckerberg one he used to say? Now I'm forgetting. um Anyway, now everybody's poo-pooing those praises because they don't like Elon Musk anymore. But you know I think you have to be you to be pretty brave, possibly a little clueless to be a founder, certainly at my age. I mean, I think I'm about your age, Nikki. I think I'm older than the other two. Like who starts a startup at 55? I got be i can need to have my head examined.
00:44:40
Speaker
and But- The founder of Peloton. Good to know. He he was very he was quite a bit he was quite seasoned and and nobody wanted to invest in him and look where he is.
00:44:54
Speaker
Yeah. I do think, well, older founders have a higher success rate, which isn't really surprising. But, you know, there is such a different mindset and you it's very unusual to be someone who could make it and be successful in a large corporate structure and who can also make it and found something. because it's a different skill set. It really is. but very few Very rarely do people have both. And what it takes sometimes to make it in corporate, I hate to say this, is to basically go unnoticed.
00:45:25
Speaker
Like you can bob and weave and never offend anyone. And I mean, that was never way. Yeah, I mean, that was never my way. And I think there are exceptions to that. Like, I think there are some outstanding leaders and established companies. I think it's few and far between. i think most of them are like, don't notice me. And then and all of a sudden, yeah, they they get to the top because they never offended anyone ever.
00:45:46
Speaker
But also, I mean, you were sewing garments. Like, I've written every line of copy. for everything that's ever, you know, ah every email, every bit of product, you have to be willing to do that. And most people who've spent 30 years in corporate America are not willing to go back and do that kind of work.
00:46:04
Speaker
But I will tell you, having been, you know, and executive at Levi's for many years and on boards of other companies, like there is nothing more boring to me than sitting and reviewing PowerPoints and talking about who's going to get laid off next.
00:46:17
Speaker
which is basically what you end up doing. You spend all your time on the worst stuff. I mean, somebody has to do it. I think it's necessary. But to me, it's just like such a breath of fresh air to do this fun stuff, you know, pick every fabric, you know, be deeply involved in every design, every photo shoot and every word of copy. Like, but most people who have my, you know, degree of years under their belt would not want to do that.
00:46:43
Speaker
They want to kind of phone it in. Yeah. Yeah, there's too many low-level jobs that people are too good for that we have to – we've got to be, like, really adaptable and, like, check the ego at the door. Like, any any any job is a job that needs to get done.
00:47:02
Speaker
Right. Oh, yeah. We all do everything. you know i mean, we do these pop-ups. You would laugh. We take photos because we're like, when we're really successful, we're going to laugh at this. You guys are so much further along. I'm curious what you think. But like we've done these pop-ups at sort of relevant events. We do really well because we don't have stores yet. you know And we literally hand-carry thousands of dollars. i don't know if that's late. Am I going to get in trouble? Like in suitcases, we're like, how many bags can we check? Can we check 10 bags for free?
00:47:33
Speaker
Um, and we just laugh cause we're like sweating, you know, carrying those products through the airport. I mean, can you imagine a C-suite executive anywhere doing that? But that's what we all do what it it takes.
00:47:45
Speaker
Um, So, but we're, we're, I'm having a blast. So, yeah, I've been there. I've done the dirt. Like I've carried the heaviest stuff, the dirtiest things. And then to the most glamorous places.
00:47:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I think it's the best. I think, I think that I tell people, you know, even though that we're, you know, whatever year 14 or 15 here, it's I wake up every day. Like my ass is on fire, you know, and that's ah um um like every day is the first day. And I think that's really important, but,
00:48:15
Speaker
the startup phase is like the most fun, you know? How long would you classify the startup phase as being? How many years?
Startup Mindset and Impact
00:48:24
Speaker
I mean, ah if you look at tuition payments, which I call it, I try to avoid the word mistakes, but um I would say tuition payments for me, I'm still making a lot of them, to too many of them. Of course, I'd I tried to build two brands at the same time and I just fired myself as the CEO of the other brand, nutritional brand. It's three times bigger than my apparel and footwear company. So interesting so I have a lot of executives ah from these big brands that came in and, you know, I've heard, you know, I'm too much of a cowboy and you can't do things like that. And,
00:49:00
Speaker
ah you know, and, and there's, there's a lot of truth in that and the processes and systems and operating rhythm and cadence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to have some systems. yeah Um, not when, not when systems break your culture, you know? Yeah. I agree. It's hard to find the bad. I mean, finding that balance is going to be key.
00:49:21
Speaker
It's really, it's really, um, I want a years. Give me the years. mean, uh, I think for me, like, I mean, i in 2015, I remortgaged my house because I almost lost it all.
00:49:33
Speaker
um And I think once I went all in on it, once i went all in on it something changed in me. I started to banging my head against the wall and I started using jujitsu on my business.
00:49:48
Speaker
um But then I partnered with a guy. Okay. You got to say more about that, brother. What do you mean use jujitsu on my business? i yeah I got it. But say, yeah. Timing, leverage, balance, like angles, you know, when do you tap out? When do you apply pressure?
00:50:04
Speaker
um And I'm working on my first book, Jen. So I may have to get some advice, but, um, but yeah, I think I ended up, ended up partnering with a guy who had a big following and there was a huge risk because we like, basically we traded companies. I gave him half my company and vice versa.
00:50:22
Speaker
And we went all in together. And at that moment where there was a force multiplier, things really started to open up for us and we started to compound our growth year over year. So.
00:50:33
Speaker
Interesting. so it It was good, but i I still feel like, I mean, you've got what Levi's does, $4 or $5 billion dollars a year. You've got like these brands doing massive, massive revenue.
00:50:46
Speaker
um For me to to get a company on 100% U.S. supply chain to like 500 million is quite a feat, especially yeah if the zippers and rivets and thread and fiber is all from u so U.S. soil. That's a yeah huge, huge feat. So agree I would say we're still ah was still a startup, but You know, we've got the executives and all the business units and all that stuff. I just don't think you can ever, ever lose that mindset. My business, another one of my business partners, he actually built Under Armour. So he was the co-founder of Under Armour. He said, Pete, until you hit like 250 of revenue, you don't you don't create enough cash to like to to really scale the business. I don't know if that's true or not. I mean, we've scaled both my brands quite,
00:51:36
Speaker
quite well and and done it the way we want it to. I really think it's resourcefulness that trumps all of it. I think yeah scrappy entrepreneurial mindset, get up and rip faces off every every day. That resourcefulness really is is the defining quality I actually look for in others, A players that I bring onto the team. so Well, I think you can also have a ton of impact. I mean, you know, Michelle talks about her outlet, but you talked about the aesthetic then being adopted by other much bigger brands.
00:52:09
Speaker
um I mean, I think we're having a huge impact already. you know, I would argue... that you know Nike's Super Bowl ad, which I thought was terrible, was a direct response to us calling them out repeatedly for the last 10 months. um So I think we're having a huge impact. I guess what we're um like, we fight for revenue every single day, right? I have no baseline revenue. Everything is new every single day. So Well, the baseline changes too, right? It's like, as you scale the business, you need a new baseline.
00:52:41
Speaker
What's my ROAS? What am I spending here? how do I get my, I mean, it's the same conversation you've had at Levi's about, you know, about cogs and pennies and dimes and nickels. Like it's still the same thing, but.
00:52:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's still the same. But I mean, i think we're having a huge impact on the cultural conversation on this issue. And I think the other brands, they're pretending not to notice us because as you guys both know, they're not going to pretend they notice you. That would be beneath them to pretend they notice a brand that's so small, like the size of yours, let alone the size of mine, which is 11 months old. But they notice. And I know they notice because I always notice andvis you know when a brand was having impact. But you couldn't.
00:53:19
Speaker
pretend to know is that I think from a revenue perspective, I mean, I was at Levi's when we acquired beyond yoga, um which I actually think they have really beautiful product. I wore that product almost exclusively until now I wear my own, um, obviously, but I think they've had impact on the product and the aesthetics and in the business. And that's under, I won't say what their revenue is, but it's less than what you just articulated, you know?
00:53:46
Speaker
Um, yeah, they have as a, Yeah, they have a great, also they have a great cause behind their brands. Like that's very authentic to the founder. yeah And that's like, if you're talking truth, like and one of the founders, like she grew up like caring about body body types. Body image, yeah. yeah like In Hollywood. And it came from her mom. So it's it's ah that's where the truth always goes back to a personal experience or a family member.
00:54:16
Speaker
and I think mine kind of goes back to my mom because my mom was someone that was very much in resistance to aging. She tried so hard and she, she passed away when she was 70.
00:54:29
Speaker
um So it almost felt like, um like we could never imagine her aging because she also had like no gray hair, like ah she had a perfect bob and she was very much into always appearing,
00:54:45
Speaker
um sophisticated and proper to the public and always trying to make us that way. So this is sort of where the the cause often comes full circle. And i'm I'm really trying to make that shift in the company because we have our customers older, are a lot of the partners we have and influencers we work with are over 40.
00:55:04
Speaker
But then we need to make that shift everywhere so that everything that you see from us is like very, ah very focused on this. I love that. We should all do a collab with my nutritional company because we have a big following and big market share direct consumer. And I think both of your brands would fit really well with it.
00:55:23
Speaker
It would be good. Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah. I'll make sure I connect everybody together with with an email. Jen, I actually don't have any of your contact info. I get in touch with you through your husband. so There's...
00:55:37
Speaker
Oh, through Daniel. Okay. And also through Sarah. And through Sarah as well. I'll connect you guys together. This is great. This is great. I have another question. Sorry, I'm the one asking so many questions. Go for it Pete, do you know, I assume you know the brand American Giant.
00:55:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. yeah Byron. And Byron. You know Byron. Yeah. I mean, I know Byron. They're based in San Francisco, and I think I met him right about when he was launching.
00:56:07
Speaker
and I was just curious if you know, think they're about the same age as you. Like, I think it was around 2010, 2011. We were, we've been texting back and forth to connect and see if there's any synergies on manufacturing or whatnot. So. Cause they did the same. I mean, they built their factory in North Carolina, I think, and they produced everything in the U S he's a good guy.
00:56:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, So, ah Jen, you know what your next book's going to be called? Founders are braver than CEOs.
00:56:40
Speaker
They are. i I will say, to i mean, there is a maturity that some CEOs in there you know and established companies have. like Founders, when they fail, that if they fail, I do think you know if they get come out of the gate gangbusters, oftentimes we see this all the time. They're not equipped to manage a company that's established You know, they can do the cowboy thing that, you know, Pete talked about. They can bust down doors.
00:57:09
Speaker
ah but But sometimes it is a different skill set to to manage something that's large and established and has some process that doesn't handicap you, but enough that you're not like... breaking laws and, you know, screwing stuff up. So it's a different skill. i don't want be critical of all, all CEOs. I'll be the first to admit. I mean, I, I just, I literally fired myself ah January 1st. I hired a CEO for my nutritional company and, you know, and, and you're like, I cannot, he was, he was an executive at ah Gap or Old Navy or whatever. And then ran La Colombe, La Colombe, the coffee brand before they sold in December of 23.
00:57:50
Speaker
He's running my nutritional brand, and he runs circles around me when it comes to, you know, how he's applying pressure and driving behavior within the organization. A behavior that I tried to drive for a long time, but I'm the… He's effective. Yeah, he's ah he's effective because he just… Yeah. yeah i We ask the same questions. He asks them differently, you know what I mean? And so, i I don't know. I agree with you. it it's is a skill set, but… Yeah, I mean, what's necessary at any given point in time changes. And sometimes we as leaders and founders can adapt to that. And sometimes not so much. I'm hoping I can. Jen, how did you how would you apply pressure and change behavior? Because you obviously made it made it to the top. i
00:58:36
Speaker
And you know how to navigate the executive landscape. yeah And you're also very bold. So you're not going to be someone that flies under the radar. No, I never did. i mean, my politics were very... You know, lived in San Francisco. i lived in the Bay Area since 1988, moved to San Francisco in 92. My politics were very much aligned. I would have called myself left of left of center.
00:58:58
Speaker
um And so, you know, i was sort of bolder about that even then, because it was before, you know, every brand was hardcore, woke, or or progressive. And, you know, I had...
00:59:11
Speaker
Certain beliefs that I think fit well with with the company and even led to some extent. But i whereas, you know, where I found my clash, obviously in corporate America was saying something that was not perceived as left leaning when that took over.
00:59:26
Speaker
ah corporate, and when you know, when woke capitalism kind of turned things to shit, in my opinion, in about 2015. I always believed in, this sounds so corny, so pardon me, but like leading, it like really, really being transparent and direct.
00:59:46
Speaker
Like if I want to see a change in behavior, I'm going to tell you. um And I had to learn how to do that because I also like to be nice. um But you know you just learn. If you have one bad apple on the team, it has like a triple whammy effect because it's not just that they're not doing their work.
01:00:03
Speaker
They're pissing everybody else off who then is spending their time talking about that person rather than doing their work. And you're spending more time coaching the bad employee than the really high potential one. So it's like this triple whammy. So...
01:00:15
Speaker
You're just being really direct about performance um and what the expectations are, not accepting excuses. You know, what can you do differently to affect a different outcome? I don't want to hear about your neighbor that's not doing it right.
01:00:27
Speaker
um And leading by example, like even when I was at Levi's as the CMO or as the head of e-comm or then as the brand president, there was no work I wasn't willing to do myself.
01:00:39
Speaker
In fact, I had to learn to offload more of it because, you know, I had such broad responsibilities. But Just leading by example. And then just what I expect is agility, which you talked about, even for an established company employee to be able to kind of do lots of different things and cultural acuity.
Cultural Acuity in Business Strategy
01:00:58
Speaker
There's like this like thing that you can't teach someone and it's not necessary for all brands. You probably don't need it if you work on Swiffer at Procter and Gamble.
01:01:07
Speaker
But if you work on apparel, which is highly image-driven, you know, for Swiffer's features and benefits, you don't really need to have that. Like, what's going to set the culture up cultural conversation on fire?
01:01:21
Speaker
But for for me at Levi's, is you know, one of the things I kind of brought to the table was this idea that we had to put ourselves at the center of culture. Now, for Levi's, that meant music and creators and, you know, original voices, and we'd lost that. We'd become...
01:01:35
Speaker
um conformists, you know, and but when Levi's has been its best, it's at the center of every cultural conversation with, you know, at Woodstock and on the top of the Berlin Wall, and we'd lost that.
01:01:46
Speaker
And so I worked really hard to bring it back. And I needed people that knew how to do that with me. But then you also need I mean, i also was i I'll say this. I was pretty good at building a team. Like you also need someone who is not good at that, but is, you know, data driven. And you can't expect all the people to do all the things, but you have to create the conditions where they can work together and you have to create, you know, extract what is necessary from all of them and really be this like conductor orchestrating a team, which is really hard. My team was a thousand people.
01:02:22
Speaker
um That's a lot of people. yeah it i mean, I didn't have to coach every one of them. but Still, that's a lot of people. I set very clear expectations, clear goals, um and set a high bar for getting there for leaders and was very direct in my communication and modeled the behavior. i mean it's not complicated, but it's not easy either. It's not easy to do either. I love that you said conductor because I literally use the same metaphor.
01:02:50
Speaker
It's like my job is as a conductor. And if there's no tension on the strings, the music doesn't play. And so I have to apply the tension across the business units and get you get the creatives talking with the data folks. But the fact of the matter is, is you're you're applying tension from two ends. That's the magic.
01:03:09
Speaker
you know, and you can't have slack strings and like the, the getting the team where you have your, your BI team, you know, talking with the e-com team and your finance team and your marketing team.
01:03:21
Speaker
And of course, manufacturing in America, your ops and get them all singing the same tune is like, yeah that is the magic. And Yeah, well, I think the key, the other thing that I tried to do is keep it really simple. It's complicated. When I was younger in my career, there's a lot of people in a large corporate environment that are very invested in making things seem more complicated than they are. Because that's how they keep their job.
01:03:45
Speaker
yeah yeah They're like, ah this is really hard. no one else can do it. Get them on your business. Get them on your business. When you're younger, you don't realize that. I would come in, I'd be like, oh gosh, maybe I don't understand. Like, it seems so clear to me that this isn't complicated.
01:03:58
Speaker
And then finally... when I probably hit around 40, Michelle, do client actually I was like, wait a minute, I'm right. The simple solution is the best solution.
01:04:09
Speaker
Get the heck out here. the fact is you can't drive steer a huge ship of you know thousands and thousands of employees. Because I had a thousand employees, but really what I did as the brand president affected the ones that weren't even in my organization. So if you can't tell a simple tale and create a simple goal to strive for and break it down into bite-sized pieces that they can get after, then you will fail if you make it overly complicated.
01:04:36
Speaker
and So I realized at about 40 that... telling a simple story that was motivating, that was my strength, not just externally to the consumer, but internally to the employees.
01:04:47
Speaker
And anyone who was telling me to make it more complicated was going to need need to go. we to your point um But that's hard. not Not everyone, I realize, can do that. And I was told all the time, oh, you can't do that. you don't We don't do it that way.
01:05:03
Speaker
And I'd be like, why? i Why can't I? I can do that. I mean, by employees, by peers, by senior, you can't do it that way. Well, think I can. And so I always had this like willingness to kind of do it my own way, which is unusual, um but it would work out for me. So that was fine. I just crossed the Rubicon in 2020. So that's fine. So Jen,
01:05:30
Speaker
so so je um This seems to be something that's happened not just in your case, but in the case of people like Elon Musk, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Tulsi Gabbard, and a whole host of other people that 10 years ago, all of these guys and gals would have been considered left, left of center.
01:05:52
Speaker
um Yet today, it doesn't seem to be so much about left or right.
Political Shifts and Core Values
01:05:57
Speaker
It's more about common sense and insane. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on where you stand in the political spectrum these days, because I don't think your views have changed all that much. Have they?
01:06:10
Speaker
I would argue that they haven't. um It's that meme that I think Colin Wright made that Elon shared however many years ago that's like, here I was in the center. I mean, I was probably far left of center. And then the left just ran and you're like, what the heck happened? Now I'm like considered far right because the left went so nuts.
01:06:30
Speaker
But I had been a Democrat my whole life because I believe in free speech. And you can laugh, but the Democrats were the party. The left were the... the the champions of free speech, the ACLU, they defended Nazis' right to march in Skokie famously.
01:06:44
Speaker
i was anti-war, protect the little guy and the vulnerable. Those to me were classical liberal values that ah the the Democrats don't believe in anymore. And you know for me with COVID, it was just so alarming and so authoritarian, the idea that the government could tell me I could not leave my home, I couldn't have people in my home.
01:07:07
Speaker
I couldn't worship, which I don't really do, but whatever, it's important ah to a lot of people. I couldn't send my children to public school, but people could send their kids to private school. Like it felt so antithetical to me and such a violation of left's own stated values that I could no longer be part of it.
01:07:23
Speaker
I'm probably closest to libertarian at this point. I'm not a registered Republican, but I did vote. I did vote for Trump. That was the first Republican I ever voted for my life.
01:07:39
Speaker
if they've lost you and they've lost Joe Rogan, um it's going to be a long time before they can come back from anything. Yeah, a lot of us are independents because I think, at least for myself, I won't speak for Rogan, who I don't know. And, you know, we don't want to be really affiliated with any party that dictates what we think at this point. Like, I don't want to be a Republican either. Right now, I'm more closely aligned to what they're... But there's aspects of the right that I'm still very much not in favor of.
01:08:07
Speaker
um and So I'm not all good with them either, to be to be super clear. um So I'll just stay independent and make my own decisions about what I care about and what I want to vote for because I don't want to be dictated to by any by any party.
01:08:22
Speaker
i mean, I'm still pro-choice. I would call myself a feminist. I think the left's gone insane um with their position on choice, and I don't agree with that anymore.
01:08:35
Speaker
but Anyway, i yeah, I don't really want an affiliation with either party. I find them both to be, yeah, I can't line up. Here, for the Americans, people you used to be able to be in a party and not share all the views of that party.
01:08:51
Speaker
There was such a thing as a pro-choice Republican. There was a pro-life Democrat. Like, you could do that. You can't do that anymore. um Although I do think the Republican Party at this point is the bigger tent. And I think the Republican convention was evidence of that.
01:09:05
Speaker
The Democrat Party is a very tiny tent and it's getting smaller every day. And they just yell at you all day long that you're a racist and people are tired of it. Yeah, I think it's more of getting back to like the core America's core values. You know, we're talking brand and America is the strongest brand of all time.
01:09:24
Speaker
For sure. like What are some of our core values? And i think people are just like, we're we're off the brand book right now. We're yeah way off the brand book. like I even remember in school learning about this. And yeah, I mean, boys shouldn't play girls sports. Like I think core value is, right you know what I mean? It's like so stupid, simple.
01:09:45
Speaker
I think a core value of America is manufacturing. You know, and when I look at the, you know, politically, both parties contributed like Ross Perot standing there saying, you're gonna hear a giant sucking sound of our jobs going south. yeah And you've got Bush and Clinton looking at him and smirking to one another. Like, come on now.
01:10:05
Speaker
Like everybody contributed to the the hollowing out of our communities and our factories. You know, it was greed. Greed plays in all circles. It is bipartisan. It does not care. It does not yeah care.
01:10:19
Speaker
So you gotta have strong voices like like these women on this phone call to to help course correct this thing, because that's really what we're doing. Wouldn't you argue that you know freedom clearly an American value, which has been curtailed mostly by the left, I would argue, in the last five years.
01:10:34
Speaker
But merit is also an American value. Your car, get ahead, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And the whole movement or the project of the last 10 years, which exploded 2020, is anti-merit.
01:10:47
Speaker
yes um And so I think people are feeling it and seeing it and all the people you named who have left the Democratic Party, but really the Democratic Party left them. And you know some of them I would consider friends.
01:10:59
Speaker
um It's the same, like they don't, none of them would say my values changed. They would all say my values are the same and the left went insane. Yeah, I remember, and I know we're both good friends with Tulsi, Jen, but like when Tulsi came up to Maine for the first time, when I walked her through the factory, she had like a visceral response.
01:11:17
Speaker
She's like, oh shit, like America's missing this. like People with purpose making things, walking away at the end of the day, looking back and saying, I'm feeling fulfilled.
01:11:28
Speaker
you know like that That's important. um So yeah, no, I think i think we're getting back to the back to the book, back to the brand book of America and what it was founded on.
01:11:39
Speaker
I like that. That's a good way to say it. The Canadians are losing it too, you two. The Canadians might be more hopeless than the Americans. I don't know about hopeless. I think we're we're on we're on our way to kicking the bad guys out of power.
01:11:58
Speaker
ah But Michelle, I was going to ask you, you know what do you think is the core value of ah of Canada right now that that you and your company really represent and and stand up for?
01:12:12
Speaker
I think it's unity. I think it's ah just, the well, Canada is definitely known for diversity. And really, when we we build companies, we want diversity.
01:12:23
Speaker
ah When we build really anything, I think we just want to think of it as diversity. um as how can we be as united as possible, like elevating everybody around you.
01:12:36
Speaker
um it's It's almost like the the Jamaican core value out of many one people. um Also, my mom was from Jamaica, so I'll always have that core value at heart. And yeah, and it, and And really, i think I think that's what Canada is. It's a melting pot.
01:12:57
Speaker
And and and i think that's what, I think there could be some more ambition. And I like the core value of merit. I would love to infuse. a lot more merit and a lot of self-reliance and pulling ourselves up by our our bootstraps and and a focus on business and creativity, um supporting the arts. I've always wished that Canada would support the arts more.
01:13:22
Speaker
um The way that if you go to Berlin, you see artists from a lot of Canadian artists um because they've gone there because they're getting supported by Germany. Yeah.
Unity and Respecting Differences
01:13:34
Speaker
So i just I just think that ah supporting things to make your country better and um and like making, finding a way that we can um support each other despite differences, that yeah there's differences, but honoring Honoring differences, but also standing standing in your own conviction, which is respecting someone else's opinion, which no one respects a differing opinion. Yeah, it's interesting. I would have said a core value for America was this idea that we're sort of united in how different we all are.
01:14:11
Speaker
You know, it is a nation of immigrants. We all have different views, but we can come together and be united in that difference. And in fact, the most successful ad I ever made for Levi's was an ad called Circles. And that was that was the the brief.
01:14:25
Speaker
um And it was just like fire for us. I mean, it was insane how well it did. And I think about it now. We made it in 2017 and we couldn't. we couldn't If I was still there, I don't think I could make that ad now. Like just the premise that we should be united in our difference. We should come together over the fact that you're different, I'm different, but we have a lot in common in having difference and feeling different all the time. You know what i mean? I don't think...
01:14:52
Speaker
I don't know. I don't think you could make that in an established company right now. Maybe you could. and And that was such a metaphor for Levi's because Levi's is worn by everyone, right? The minivan mom, the kid, the cowboy, the laborer, like the immigrant, like everybody wears 501. So it was just this cool metaphor for the brand. And I think it is really what America is about. And we've lost that because now we're all in opposition to each other.
01:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, because we don't know the other person's story. Like we we don't know their entire story. So just giving like assume positive intent, like we need to be as yeah business owners and um and just say, well, this is my perspective. I stand in this and that's yours. And that's that's what it is.
01:15:38
Speaker
I can still know that you're a good person, even if we disagree, but as we all know, that is not how it's been for the last 10 years. Michelle, I really like what you said out of many one, e pluribus unum you know, that is, uh, uh, something that's on American currency, right?
01:15:59
Speaker
E pluribus unum out of many one. It's a beautiful, beautiful sentiment. um I think some other core Canadian values is we here in Canada believe in fair play.
01:16:14
Speaker
We believe in um giving people, everybody the same opportunities. We don't believe in favoritism. ah We love hockey. yeah yeah you sir it was I got to say, I was embarrassed that some of my fellow Canadians were booing the national anthem.
Mixed Feelings on Leadership
01:16:34
Speaker
I did not like that.
01:16:36
Speaker
ah it It really pissed me off. um But, so you know, I love President Trump. He's so but what one one of my yeah one of my heroes.
01:16:47
Speaker
But, you know, as a Canadian, some some of the trolling he's doing of Trudeau has been a little much. i'm like, okay, Mr. President, start cooling off, man. and Enough of this 51st state BS. Okay.
01:16:58
Speaker
So, yeah and secondly, you know, We lost that first game. And I got to tell you, every Canadian in the country was so pissed off because we expect to win every hockey game. but We never expect to lose hockey. So it was a hell a thing. It was a hell of a thing. But it was great that we won the last game.
01:17:23
Speaker
Love Conor McDavid. He scored a beautiful goal. And god God bless him for doing that. Rub it in. Rub it in. Yes. you can go cost If you call this rubby, get in, brother. Come on.
01:17:35
Speaker
i'm So the other thing that we in Canada really see as a core value um is standing up for freedom. You know, in World War II, the Germans...
01:17:50
Speaker
wanted to, um near the end, they wanted to surrender to American soldiers. They wanted to surrender to English soldiers, British soldiers. um They didn't really want to surrender to the Soviets because, you know, they thought the Soviets were going to basically abuse them and send them to prison camps, but they never wanted to surrender to Canadians because the order from on high had come, um give no quarter. They tried to surrender mow them down, which was against, you know, the Geneva Convention and all of that, but When um Canada sent a bunch of our soldiers to do a raid in Dieppe in France in 1943, 13,000 Canadians were basically mowed down by the Germans then.
01:18:31
Speaker
We were ticked off. So, you know, you know don't piss us off. when it's ah When you piss off a Canadian to a certain point, they stop being nice. They stop saying sorry. They stop being impolite.
01:18:42
Speaker
And ah That's one of the things that, so as a Canadian, I'm i'm proud of. we We stand up for what's right. We stand up for ah each other.
Aligning Passion with Work
01:18:53
Speaker
And we stand up for making ah the values that Canada and America share in common great you know freedom, fair play, merit, ambition, the opportunity for... good people to pursue their dreams, to pursue happiness. I think Thomas Jefferson said it really beautifully, you know, ah life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And the pursuit of happiness is what the three of you are doing.
01:19:16
Speaker
You're doing something that gives you a lot of joy. The sense I get from all of you is that this doesn't seem like work to you. You know, a lot of people who work as hard as you do Wouldn't want to do it because it it wears them out, but you seem like you're loving it. It doesn't seem like work to you. And I'm just wondering if, if you could all comment on that, Michelle, why don't you start?
01:19:41
Speaker
um I think it's really when you're in alignment with what you're best at and what you're passionate about. And then the the greatest part is when you really can serve the world in a big way. Like that will be like the greatest satisfaction or where where you'll feel like you're truly in perfect alignment.
01:20:01
Speaker
um It's hard work. So it's grueling. um But the the amazing thing is that you grow so much as a person that sure, if your business grows, that's wonderful.
01:20:13
Speaker
But when you look back, ah you've grown so much as a human being um every single time you look back. And I think that that those major shifts, especially when you go through hard times, um I think that's when we're growing the most. And it's that's so fulfilling.
01:20:31
Speaker
um And if we can just keep finding ways to keep our business as much in alignment with what we're here to do, i think we can't go wrong.
01:20:42
Speaker
Amen. Amen. Pete, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I was having an ADHD moment. You know, that's a superpower. Used to be my kryptonite, you know, before I turned 40 and I figured out that I had a brain.
Art and Individuality
01:20:54
Speaker
um And so you're to have to ask me the question again. But my ADHD moment was actually, you guys have a thing in Canada. were talking about World War II. You have a song, right, about like some fields. Is that like some type of – Flandersfields? Flandersfields. Flandersfields.
01:21:13
Speaker
Yeah. And so I believe – um the gentleman who wrote that was the heir to the Eileen Donnan castle up in Scotland, right? Where the last stronghold of the Jacobite revolution. I'm pretty sure there was a guy that wrote in Flanders field, you know, like was of the descendants, like the last descendant of that stronghold. And I was just thinking about how, how united everybody truly is through DNA.
01:21:41
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like to, to Jen's earlier point, like, that's part of a core value is being an individual individuality. That's why i love BlueJeans so much. it's you know You can be free-minded regardless of of where you are in the world or at what time. um You never can lock away the mind. um So anyways, ADHD moment, but your question was what?
01:22:03
Speaker
Yeah, so what I was saying is, Because you are so into what you're doing and and this cause is so near and dear to your heart, it doesn't seem like work to you. It seems like you're doing something that you love all day long. And and and I'm just wondering what your comments are on that. Am I right? Am I wrong?
01:22:17
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, honestly, last year was my hardest year at, you know, my 45th year of existence. I'm trying to run and scale two companies and lots of lots of chiefs and not enough Indians. And everybody has an opinion because they worked at big Fortune 500 companies.
01:22:36
Speaker
And it was the first year I ever worked in my life. Last year was. And I found that um that I was spending my my time, capacity and capital in some instances in the wrong places.
01:22:49
Speaker
And that's why I actually changed change. That's why I fired myself from one of the companies.
Balancing Work and Personal Life
01:22:54
Speaker
oh and um And so up until that point, I hadn't worked a day in my life.
01:23:00
Speaker
And at the start of this year, you know, again, it's just... it it is it is part of my DNA. It's like I i work out, you know, i I train, I try to eat healthy, although I am a Greek kid who can eat everything.
01:23:17
Speaker
try to I try to eat healthy ah and um and I work. And i think that's important. I will tell you, though, um my wife and I like to, we like to travel and we like to see the old world. And we're really inspired by, you know, walking the streets of,
01:23:33
Speaker
of of genoa or or lisbon or you know we would love to travel we'd love to see the the old world and um we were in we were in france last year and we're at this little italian restaurant with a woman there and uh i asked her you know like so so so what do you do and she's like oh i love art and i was like oh And and she's like, i love art.
01:23:57
Speaker
um You know, I actually have a book with my art and I got a divorce from my husband after, you know, 30 something years of marriage. And I just found this real passion for art. And she just wanted to talk about her passions.
01:24:10
Speaker
And in America, we just want to talk about our work. And i've I've found now as I've hit the midpoint point in life, like for me, my work has been my passion and it's and it's really important, but at the same time, it can't be the only thing that makes up my life.
01:24:28
Speaker
Like i don't I don't want my my legacy or or my kids just to think that work is what makes a true and pure life. It is a it is a piece of the pie.
01:24:39
Speaker
Just like finance is a piece of the pie in business or supply chain. Like it's a piece of the pie. So I've never worked a day in my life, but I do enjoy oh all there is to offer outside of work.
01:24:53
Speaker
So Pete, what's one thing outside of work that you're super passionate about that I wouldn't know about? Because know you love jujitsu, so don't give me jujitsu. Give me something else.
01:25:04
Speaker
One thing I'm super passionate about outside of work. Gosh. um Let me expose myself here. ah i will I will tell you on Instagram, I follow artists.
01:25:17
Speaker
oh Yeah? Yeah. So i' I was an art major in college. I dropped out. Um, but i I, love art. Um, my wife and I like to like to collect art.
01:25:28
Speaker
Um, no way. Yeah. Yeah. So everywhere we go, we try to, you know, we go to you know, and find ah artists, you know, off the beaten path and whatnot. And, uh, the other thing is, is I'm a foodie, uh, Nick, I, I make pasta, i took a pasta cooking class and,
01:25:46
Speaker
And bologna, you know, and i love, I love food, you know, I mean, look at me, I'm a fat kid. I love food. What can I say? You're hardly fat, buddy. So, Pete, I'm going to introduce you to a guy who's in my men's group.
01:26:00
Speaker
And I'm going to show this to you ladies as well. But so I don't know if you can see this. I can't. This is a photo. that So I'll send this to you guys by email or text. But this guy is a guy in my men's group. He's he's from Oklahoma. He's soft-spoken.
01:26:14
Speaker
You know, you would not think this guy is anybody with anything super special. i He's a really good man. But then he goes, I'm into taking photos, you know, and he's like, ah he's like, Jenny's around you and I's age, you know, maybe even a couple years older. and he says, I want to start doing photography, you know, at this stage in my life. I want to have a little photo business.
01:26:35
Speaker
So there's about 13, 14 men in the group. So we told him, listen, start posting a photo a day in the group. And we just say, let's just, just to, you know, get the ball rolling, show us your stuff.
01:26:45
Speaker
The guy sends us a photo, his very first photo. Buddy, it looks like a Peter Lick or an Ansel Adams. You guys know who those guys are in the world of photography? Peter Lick is one of the greatest living photographers.
01:26:58
Speaker
And Ansel Adams is maybe the greatest photographer of all time. And I'm going, you took this? Richard, you took this. He goes, yeah, yeah, I took this. And he starts posting other ones. They are unreal.
01:27:09
Speaker
So I told him, look, I'm going to coach you because you don't anything about business. And you're going to have a little photography business in your old age to keep you going. And going to find people who like art, photography, and i'm going to buy a couple of your photos myself and send them out to friends and keep a couple.
01:27:23
Speaker
But you guys got to see this guy's stuff. I'll send you his website. Yeah, send please. His website sucks, but the photos are unreal. Unreal. And his brother is a curator of a major art museum in l L.A., so go figure. He's going to get his brother to try and you know get a little exhibition of his stuff going. But that's super, super cool.
01:27:44
Speaker
And one of my business buddies, who's a CEO founder like you, Pete, he's your age maybe. I think he's maybe a year or two older than you. He paints, and he's pretty good. I'm not saying you'd want to like spend money to buy his stuff,
01:27:57
Speaker
But, you know, for a CEO, he paints to relax and it seems to be working for him. So that's pretty cool. i mean his instagram I'll check it out. I will. I will. I will. I will. i will It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. OK, so so, Jen, um what about you? Is this work for you or or or is it like not work because you're loving it so much? And what's one thing out of business that you love? Just like Pete, I want all you guys to answer that.
01:28:19
Speaker
I have worked hard my whole life. I love to work. I mean, if you think training to be an elite gymnast isn't hard work, and I always tell people there's nothing that will ever be as hard as that.
01:28:30
Speaker
I get to eat. You know, no one's like grabbing food. No one's weighing me in and announcing it to all the employees and like screaming at me that I'm fat. And i don't have to like drag around a broken ankle and work out anyway. So nothing will ever be as hard as um training and gymnastics. But, you know, and clearly I was doing that and not getting paid because I love the sport until I did because it went crazy. So I have, you know, my whole life I have put work. I love work.
01:28:57
Speaker
And I agree with Pete, you don't want your children to believe. And some people, that's not, my husband does not like work. He's not like work. He, um you know, he's the stay-at-home dad. He loves taking care of our children and taking care of our family. And that's what he loves. And that's what gives him meaning. And he loves to read and argue about politics. And, you know, that's what he loves.
01:29:17
Speaker
that And acquire knowledge. He doesn't feel the need to put that knowledge to you know, to apply it just to collect knowledge for the sake of it, which I think is really interesting. So we're a good kind of compliment because I love to work and this doesn't feel like work, but I don't know.
01:29:33
Speaker
I've never done anything that did. I mean, I loved my time at Levi's. I loved it. I love that brand. I've worn it since I was six years old. I think it's a beautiful brand. It makes beautiful
The Startup Journey
01:29:45
Speaker
product. um And, you know, when they're on and, you know, doing what is right and true to that brand, i think nothing beats it, although I'll go check out Origin.
01:29:55
Speaker
um But I still have hundreds of pairs of Levi's. So, you know, it'll be hard to get me out of 501s probably. I mean, if you started working there 99 and you bought all the new styles all the time, you can imagine how many pairs of Levi's I had.
01:30:08
Speaker
So I love work. and It doesn't feel like work, but I've never chosen to do anything that felt like work. So this isn't particularly different for me. But I will tell you, before we launched, a friend of mine and who did his own startup very successful and and sold it, not in our space, in the media space, he told me, your worst day is going to be worse than any day you ever had.
01:30:29
Speaker
at Levi's and the best is going to be so much better. And, you know, in 11 months, you guys are all nodding. I mean, that's so true. Like the worst days, I'm just like, why? No one's coming to our website. And the best days are like insane.
01:30:44
Speaker
um So that's fun to me. You know, I like that. I'm having ah i'm having a great time and I'm not going to accept failure because I never accept failure. so Jen, I will tell you, Jen, the I remember we would go days without an order, like days. and And there were so many weird so so many weeks where I would meet my business partner, Dedeco, in Portland, Maine at Becky's Diner, and we'd have an omelet, and he'd give me cash, and I'd go back, and I'd deposit and make payroll.
01:31:17
Speaker
And that's like, that's like what makes you're making me feel better. Yeah. It's just, I mean, it's par for the course to get that, to get that momentum really is a sheer force of will.
01:31:29
Speaker
And like, I'm seeing you guys everywhere. I pay attention. Oh, and and you make me feel better because haven't had a day with no orders. Yeah. Well, that that's good. That's drilled. 11 month in.
01:31:41
Speaker
I mean, that drills you.
Encouragement Among Entrepreneurs
01:31:43
Speaker
But there have been days where it's really slow and there been days because of course, you know, it's on my phone. I can see it. It's just like ding, ding, ding. you're like what yeah But yeah, you're making me feel better. It's hard to find people that will actually share what it was like, you know, cause the people who are further along, um, I don't They want to kind of act like they were always on this road to, you know, they don't really want to tell you what was super hard about it and what those tough days were like. So thank you. I really appreciate it. Cause you're, you're both providing encouragement.
01:32:14
Speaker
I have to run and get my daughter in a second. So yes if, um, If the things I like and care about and do outside of work, it's my my family, you know, that's it.
01:32:24
Speaker
My relationship, you have to work at those. My children, I have four kids. Pete, I'm going to send you, have two grown children, both artists. One just finished his mass and MFA at NYU. The other's at Cooper Union right now.
01:32:38
Speaker
And they're amazing. One's a painter, one's more of an illustrator. So I'm going to send you theirs because you're going to think that. I want to see them too. I want to see them too. i like i like i like supporting guy I like supporting artists, especially from people that I know. I think that's fantastic.
Passions Beyond Business
01:32:53
Speaker
So, Jen, I know you got to go, but Michelle, real quick, what's one thing you're passionate about outside of work? Well, definitely my kids, but um in terms of, i I love so many sports, but right now, like I love skiing still, surfing whenever possible. But I'd say the one thing that I really took up again this summer was flamenco dance, which a lot of people might not even know what that is.
01:33:19
Speaker
i did it in my... i like throughout my 20s and I thought, ah, I'm gonna do this again for the pure joy of it. I did it only for joy. um And I'm so glad a I reignited that. So lots of forms of dance I love um and just doing it just to to do it.
Networking and Collaboration Plans
01:33:40
Speaker
there's no There's nothing more than that. It's cool.
01:33:43
Speaker
And i'll I'll tell you mine real quick. um I got a lot of things too, but right now I'm going for my IFBB Pro Bodybuilding card. I'm 57. so So at the age of 60, I can go for that. So ah Jen, I am weighing everything I eat.
01:34:00
Speaker
There's things I can't eat. I train every day. I got to make sure I sleep at least nine hours a day, which isn't always possible. And I got a hard-ass coach who's on my case. So I feel you, girl. Okay.
01:34:11
Speaker
I feel you from back in the day. Guys, it was an honor to have the three of you on the show. I hope you had as much fun as I did. This was not work for me. This was fun. I want to make sure I connect everybody with one another.
01:34:23
Speaker
um i'd really love to um find ways to continue to have you guys be in touch and and support. I've got some ideas about seeing if I can find a couple of other apparel folks, maybe do a day or an event somewhere. Maybe we come to Pete's factory, all of us.
01:34:38
Speaker
Hang out there. Maybe we go to Jen's. Maybe we go to Michelle's, and i'll I'll get a few other people going. I think that could be a lot of fun. Pete, I'm going to come ah to Maine this summer. Teresa was all gung-ho to do the jiu-jitsu, and then all of a sudden she said, I've got to share room with other people, and she says, no, i don't want to do it.
01:34:54
Speaker
So I'm trying to either figure out if I can persuade her to change her mind or i got to come by myself. But i'm going to come to Maine, and we'll figure some stuff out. Love all you guys. God bless you. Thanks for being on the show. Nice to meet you.
01:35:05
Speaker
Nice to meet everyone. Thank you guys so much. Thanks, Nick. Thank you. Thank you.
01:35:12
Speaker
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