Transcript
Speaker: They have given me so much insight in how to trust and center kids, how to wholly believe in them, and to see education as a life-giving force.
Speaker: And it's really pushed me on the trajectory to really see how humanizing we need to make learning spaces.
Speaker: And I'm really deeply interested in that and allowing students to reflect on their gifts and their voice and their learning and give them time to experience things and
Speaker: deeply connect with others and the world around them and make those connections.
Speaker: And I'm just, yeah, I just love the idea of having learning spaces that give kids chances to have experiences that are actionable, restorative, healing, allow them to be conscientious.
Speaker: So anything that can lend itself to that vision, I'm always excited to learn about, which is how I came across Human Restoration Project.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to episode 128 of our podcast at the Human Restoration Project.
Speaker: My name is Nick Covington.
Speaker: As with all of our content, this episode is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are Sarah Mastenbrook, Ryan Boren, and Molly Swanhorst.
Speaker: Thank you so much for your ongoing support.
Speaker: You can learn more about us and our work at humanrestorationproject.org.
Speaker: It only takes a few seconds on Hannah Elmy's Twitter timeline for even the most oblivious observer like myself to know that what she is doing is magical.
Speaker: One post from February details several images of student contributions from reflections on stone soup and other related readings.
Speaker: Child's handwriting draws your eye to the center of each poster.
Speaker: We take care of each other by.
Speaker: We take care of water by.
Speaker: We take care of the earth by.
Speaker: Student drawings and reflections surrounding those prompts create the shared understanding.
Speaker: Hannah also captures our ideas in the margins.
Speaker: Have a spirit of Ubuntu, she says.
Speaker: I am because we are.
Speaker: Be like the water walkers.
Speaker: Love water.
Speaker: Another series of images shows her young students exploring questions like, What's the heart of the story?
Speaker: What do you think the author wants us to know in our minds and hearts as a reader?
Speaker: One student reply reads, Miss, I think the heart of the story is that anger is okay and normal.
Speaker: We just have to breathe.
Speaker: Hannah prompts students to explore the differences and similarities between justice and charity.
Speaker: She quotes from one of the dozens of books her students use.
Speaker: What are words really?
Speaker: Are they just random letters arranged in different ways?
Speaker: Or do they have magical powers that can inspire and amaze?
Speaker: A student uses a number string to double 40.
Speaker: Students with clipboards find and sort animals on a number line by their height.
Speaker: They write, draw, and reflect in dream journals.
Speaker: I could go on and on and on.
Speaker: In every post, it's so obvious that students are deeply engaged and invested in the world and with each other.
Speaker: Community, love, joy, and learning are self-evident in the work she does with kids.
Speaker: And what a joy it is to be able to spend time with you today, Hannah.
Speaker: Welcome.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker: And I hope our conversation today can capture that spirit and bring it up close to us for us to get to know you and begin to understand that beating heart and the magic at the heart of everything that I was just listing there.
Speaker: So for folks who may not know you, who are you?
Speaker: What is the work that you do?
Speaker: Before I even start, I just want to say something like big fangirl.
Speaker: Human Restoration Project is like
Speaker: I'm just so happy to be here, but not only that, but just to be a part of it in this capacity.
Speaker: I don't have the words to describe, it's just inscribable.
Speaker: So I just want to start off with that.
Speaker: Thanks for having me and all the work that you do, Nick, and all the work that Chris does to create this platform and space for educators and people who are invested in education.
Speaker: I think this is so, so important.
Speaker: So I want to start off just by saying that.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: And so I'm Hannah.
Speaker: I'm self-described reader, learner, a big super fan of Abbott Elementary.
Speaker: And I'm a public educator.
Speaker: Shout out.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that show.
Speaker: I'm currently in my 10th year as an educator, just started my 10th year.
Speaker: And I live in Ontario, Canada.
Speaker: So that's a little bit about me and what I do.
Speaker: I teach second and third graders.
Speaker: So they're about seven, eight, nine-year-olds.
Speaker: They're just the best.
Speaker: So I'm just enjoying all of our time together.
Speaker: That's incredible.
Speaker: As the father of a second grader, thank you for your service.
Speaker: Thank you for your work.
Speaker: And it really is.
Speaker: I just have such a deep admiration for elementary teachers in particular.
Speaker: And I really think are un- and underappreciated in the timeline of education K through 12.
Speaker: I mean, you're at such an important level.
Speaker: level there.
Speaker: So what are the ideas, thinkers, and the work that informs the work that you do with kids?
Speaker: And maybe a follow-up to that too, like how responsive are they to that?
Speaker: They, first of all, they, like you said, they're just so eager to learn everything.
Speaker: So anything that I bring forward, they're like, tell us more.
Speaker: We want to know more, which I just love.
Speaker: Like I said, that age group is so under, underappreciated really they are.
Speaker: But for me, when I think of thinkers or work, I really just think of black women leaders in my own life and educators around me and elders who have poured into me in my own life, guided me.
Speaker: I think about my mom, who is also an elementary educator.
Speaker: I think about my colleague, my parents.
Speaker: My mentor, Mrs. Hurst, through my first years of teaching, really guided me and took me under her wing.
Speaker: Really understand and appreciate when you see someone who's further along in their career and all they've been through, when they can espouse advice to you about what they've seen and how to do things.
Speaker: It's really, really just such a gift.
Speaker: All of the work of Bell Hooks, anything Bell Hooks writes, I'm like, yes, this makes sense.
Speaker: She's giving me the words that I need.
Speaker: So I just love anything from her.
Speaker: I think about Dr. Lisa Delpit, Dr. Jamila Dugan, Dr. Goldie Muhammad in particular, Dr. Akosful-Lisen, who just, they have given me so much in insight and how to trust and center kids, how to wholly believe in them, and to see education as a life-giving force.
Speaker: And it's really pushed me on the trajectory to really see how humanizing, you know, we need to make learning spaces.
Speaker: And I'm really deeply interested in that.
Speaker: And
Speaker: allowing students to reflect on their gifts and their voice and their learning and give them time to experience things and deeply connect with others in the world around them and make those connections.
Speaker: And I'm just, yeah, I just love the idea of having learning spaces that give kids chances to have experiences that are actionable, restorative, healing, allow them to be conscientious.
Speaker: So anything that can lend itself to that vision, I'm always excited to learn about, which is how I came across Human Restoration Project, just the
Speaker: I was like, this is it.
Speaker: This is the stuff right here.
Speaker: It's all in the name.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's what I find so incredible is that I think a lot of times people, educators even, we try to wall off that work towards either higher grade levels or even just for higher education.
Speaker: You know, you mentioned the work of bell hooks in particular.
Speaker: We think that work of critical pedagogy can only happen with older learners or, you know, perhaps even with college students or beyond.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I don't want to say that it's rare to see in elementary schools, but I think it's just it doesn't have a light shown on it as much as maybe it should to see how younger learners actually can participate in those restorative practices, restorative spaces, as you had mentioned there, too.
Speaker: And I'm curious because last month you had also spoken with the Learning Forward Ontario.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: on liberatory learning.
Speaker: And that, I think, is something that connects well with Denisha Jones's work as well in liberatory play.
Speaker: What is liberatory learning in your vision?
Speaker: Why is that central to your work with students?
Speaker: How is that expressed in what students do?
Speaker: I've written some notes on this, and I tried to put it and encapsulate it in some form to kind of streamline and
Speaker: It just, it gave me pause to really think about because I think sometimes we miss the daily actions that we do.
Speaker: How do you describe what you do in the classroom and how do you name it and how do you explain it?
Speaker: So I just always go back.
Speaker: I said like bell hooks and she explained it so beautifully when she wrote that education as a practice of freedom affirms healthy self-esteem and it promotes a student's capacity to be aware and live consciously.
Speaker: And to me, that perfectly encapsulates liberatory learning, giving students the ability to reflect and make the personal connections and meaning from their learning.
Speaker: It's about agency and students having control of what they learn and the ways in which they model and consolidate that learning.
Speaker: It's life affirming, it's humanizing, it's without hierarchies.
Speaker: There is no teacher at the top, student at the bottom.
Speaker: It's intrinsically compassionate to self and others.
Speaker: It's about grace for the learners in our room together and the people around us.
Speaker: And to me, it's never been about a singular piece of knowledge that I'm trying to teach students.
Speaker: It's about their learning and their ways of knowing as a process.
Speaker: So when I think about liberatory practices or liberatory learning, my hope with my students is that they always can recognize and tap into their own brilliance and their own embodied knowledge and that they use the importance of collective care
Speaker: as a guiding force in their own lives as they grow and they learn and they flourish.
Speaker: So those are just some thoughts of what I would define liberatory learning is and why it's so central.
Speaker: I think just thinking about the learning and teaching with my students, I just always think about how dehumanizing learning spaces have been and continue to be, which is probably why I was so compelled when I learned about human restoration projects.
Speaker: Like you said, it's in the name.
Speaker: I just thought this is exactly what I needed when I needed it.
Speaker: And I think about my own educational experiences as a Black Muslim and how those primary educational experiences have really stayed with me, the positive and the negative.
Speaker: And I think about how, like most educators, the last few years have been some of the most difficult for me.
Speaker: I think I can speak on others' behalf as well and emotionally complex.
Speaker: And we're experiencing what I believe to be, I named it, like I said, I might be having some kind of moral distress or deep moral injury because
Speaker: I found a very, very deep and pronounced and painful misalignment between what I valued as an educator and what the education system expected me to value.
Speaker: And that was really hard to kind of figure out how to navigate that misalignment because we're in these spaces every day trying to do what we need to do and what we believe to be correct and right and honoring students.
Speaker: But it's not always honored in that way.
Speaker: So for me, thinking about myself and then about my own students who were
Speaker: you know, and still are grieving.
Speaker: They're anxious, they're fearful.
Speaker: They're in need of a lot of assurance a lot of times, but on the flip side, they're also incredibly curious.
Speaker: They're very compassionate, they're excited about learning and they have very deep desire to be seen, heard, honored, believed and listened to.
Speaker: So when I think back to when I first started, when I first stepped into a classroom, all I knew at that point on my first day teaching was like, I just don't want students to have to heal.
Speaker: from their experiences at school.
Speaker: That was like my one goal.
Speaker: Just think about my own experience as a student and what I had seen during my practice teaching.
Speaker: And I just really wanted kids to never have to heal from experiences at school.
Speaker: So although my first year as a teacher, I didn't have, I wasn't able to articulate or have the language to talk about, you know, I want our learning space to be anti-carceral or connected to community or centered around student voice.
Speaker: I didn't have all the
Speaker: vernacular for that, but I did know that viscerally the system as it existed and as it still exists was something that I needed to push back against.
Speaker: I was like, there's something there that I don't align with and I know I can't name it.
Speaker: I feel like there's something here.
Speaker: But I knew that that's the path that I needed to be on.
Speaker: So years later, I'm looking now, this is my 10th year.
Speaker: Leading with my own embodied knowledge, like trusting that I know when something feels right and good and safe and honors kids.
Speaker: I lead with that and honoring student dignity to understand what that looks and sounds like at this point at 10 years in.
Speaker: To understand what experiential learning connected to community and lived experiences can look and sound like.
Speaker: And learning more about how early black freedom schools created liberatory learning spaces that not only sustained like students and communities, but transformed them.
Speaker: And those libertarian learnings, they were just central to the type of classrooms.
Speaker: When I see that model of early black freedom schools, I see that that's something that I want to embody and create in our own schools and our own classrooms, because that's everything about libertarian education within those schools.
Speaker: So how it's expressed in our room, we really strive to express it in tangible ways.
Speaker: I think that's really important to me.
Speaker: There's not a lot of stuff that's just words.
Speaker: We need to actually do the thing.
Speaker: We have to do the thing.
Speaker: That much is evident.
Speaker: They're always doing.
Speaker: That's what's so awesome.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We have to like, I find that some kids learn best is we actually have to like, let's go, go in, let's dig in, let's have a conversation.
Speaker: Let's do some writing.
Speaker: Let's, you know, ask the question.
Speaker: So when I learned about Bell Hooks's concept of home place, that was something that was really sacred to me.
Speaker: I was like, I really just wanted to create that in the classroom.
Speaker: And she described it as like a community of resistance.
Speaker: It's a place of hope.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: You know, we're thinking about it as a place of softness for us because, you know, the world externally is not always soft with us.
Speaker: And human connection, that was really deeply important to me for kids to be connected to each other in very deep ways.
Speaker: So for us, it's a space to witness each other and be witnessed in safety.
Speaker: We're very intentional about making students' words, their ideas, their perspective visible and central to what we do.
Speaker: We talk a lot about voice and choice in our room.
Speaker: We talk about who we are, what our dreams are for the world and ourselves, what it means to be agents of change.
Speaker: We talk about the differences between justice and charity and how those manifest in the world around us.
Speaker: We love getting to really dig deep, like I said, into questions about the world and who we are.
Speaker: And one thing that we're really excited about this year is we're talking a lot about dreams.
Speaker: And it's inspired by the work of Dr. Jamila Dugan, but she talks a lot about dreaming and freedom dreaming.
Speaker: And we decided, you know, we are talking a lot about dreams.
Speaker: Why don't we make a dream collective?
Speaker: Let's just talk about our dreams and what we want for the world.
Speaker: So we, you know, got a bulletin board and we, you know, put our words up there and each student got to draw and write about a dream they had for themselves, a dream they had for our community and our city and one for our world.
Speaker: And just phenomenal, like seven, eight, nine years old, they're thinking about, you know, we want people to have fresh food.
Speaker: We want to have gardens.
Speaker: I want to, you know, have a swimming pool in my neighborhood.
Speaker: I want to have clean water for everyone.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: Just so profound, you know, like you said, they, this isn't college or high school, they're our youngest learners, but they know what the world should look like.
Speaker: So it's really powerful to see that.
Speaker: And yeah, we've just really dug into that and even asked our loved ones at home to write dreams that they have for us to also add to the board so we can see those every day.
Speaker: But just incredibly powerful and humbling to be reminded of the power and agencies that kids have to vocalize the type of world they want to see.
Speaker: Yeah, we also read a lot about dreamers and the ones who look like us, the ones who don't, the ones who inspire us, and we add their dreams to our wall as well for aspirational vision.
Speaker: And as the years progress, we're starting to think about action plans.
Speaker: We're thinking about how these dreams can be actualized.
Speaker: So
Speaker: Again, they're seven, eight, nine years old, but they're already world building.
Speaker: You know, they're writing to members of local government.
Speaker: They're organizing walks to raise money.
Speaker: And to me, that's so emblematic of liberatory learning because we're leveraging their gifts, their knowledge, their passions, their talents to critically think about what we need as a collective in order to live full and healthy lives.
Speaker: So just they're visionaries.
Speaker: They're so little, but they're visionaries.
Speaker: And it's such a stark contrast to the narratives that we hear about young people as being, you know, in crisis, you know, having huge rates of depression and other mental health issues and those kinds of things, perhaps in part because, you know, they don't have the hope that a better world is possible or they haven't been able to
Speaker: Well, either they haven't engaged in that re-envisioning or that re-imagining, turning those dreams and those visions into action.
Speaker: Or by the time that they do that work, either in high school or in college, they realize like, I'm already living in this world that I had envisioned would be better.
Speaker: And so like, then the reality perhaps kind of comes crashing down.
Speaker: And it's just such a hopeful, optimistic counter-narrative, I think, to just kind of everything else that is about
Speaker: preparing students for the world rather than like thinking about what about the world is worth preparing students for and having them engaged in doing that work alongside us and adults, kids and adults partnering to both reimagine, re-envision and then put into action the things that are going to create a better future that is sustainable, that doesn't burn us out, that doesn't, you know, depress us, leave us more anxious.
Speaker: And that I think is just so incredible.
Speaker: There is, I think,
Speaker: to shift gears a little bit and think about those narratives, there is sort of this false idea or this criticism that this liberatory practice is like impractical or that joy, justice, community, all those things that you just had talked about somehow come at a cost to student learning.
Speaker: What I see that you share on social media deflates that criticism, right?
Speaker: But for those who might need convincing, what are some of those practical ways?
Speaker: You know, you had mentioned the
Speaker: the dream journaling and actually engaging in that with adults back at home as well.
Speaker: What are some of the structures and the practices and the way that you just structure a school day, perhaps with students or that you structure a year with your second graders that actually puts joy, love and liberation into action?
Speaker: One thing that came to my mind as well as you were as you were talking is, you know, I think we're so focused on preparing kids for the future and not allowing them to exist in the world that they live in today.
Speaker: You know, like how do we navigate the world that we live in today as opposed to always telling kids, well, you know, when you're older, you can do X, Y, and Z, or the world will look X, Y, and Z if you do this now.
Speaker: And yeah, kids are very deeply in tune with the fact that they exist in the world as it is right now.
Speaker: And that is their reality, which is for all of us the same.
Speaker: It's our reality.
Speaker: I think being young doesn't change that.
Speaker: It just makes it more magnified because as a child, you're really still under a lot of control.
Speaker: There's a lot of, you know,
Speaker: adults in your life telling you what you should do and where you should go and what you should believe.
Speaker: And you tried to just break all that down when they come into the classroom and say, you know, you have agency and authority.
Speaker: What do you want to learn about?
Speaker: What are you interested in?
Speaker: What are we talking about?
Speaker: What are your questions?
Speaker: I remember at one point last year, again, they're leading the learning.
Speaker: A student had come in and asked about what was happening in Ukraine.
Speaker: And I said, okay, let's talk about it.
Speaker: And the concept of what does it mean to be a migrant or refugee or what does it mean to be?
Speaker: So even digging into that for seven, eight or nine years old, pulling texts or read aloud that we can read together, looking at junior level, like news articles that kids could read about what was happening and giving them an understanding because that's the world they live in right now.
Speaker: That's what they care about because it's happening immediately in front of them.
Speaker: But when I think about, you know,
Speaker: people who view it or, you know, it's not just a struggle.
Speaker: I think it was funny.
Speaker: I was listening to something the other day and it was talking about how in teacher preparation programs, you won't find many teachers who say, I'm so excited to like administer a standardized test.
Speaker: Like that's my dream.
Speaker: That's my aspiration.
Speaker: I aspire to one day be a test doctor.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like it's just, you know, people don't go into education, hopefully with that vision in mind.
Speaker: So, uh, yeah, Nick's like, you don't know, you
Speaker: We hope, anyway, fingers crossed that that's not their vision.
Speaker: But I think a lot of the hopes that many educators have gets drowned out and bogged down by all of the other external factors that they feel are out of their control.
Speaker: And when I think about at the end of the day, it's really just allowing ourselves as educators to really act on that gut feeling.
Speaker: There's this intuitive understanding as educators that says, this doesn't feel right.
Speaker: Like our kids are here to learn about the world and who they are and how to be.
Speaker: you know, free conscious thinkers.
Speaker: And when that becomes something that we were misaligned with, and we see that there's that guiding force is becoming askew.
Speaker: I always just think back to like, okay, the joy, the learning, liberation and love of students, it has to supersede everything else.
Speaker: Our whole day just I have to enter that classroom thinking like the joy, the learning, the liberation, the love, it has to supersede everything else.
Speaker: And there's this common misconception, like you said that,
Speaker: know classrooms they can't exist in that and um i think for a lot of people they hear joyful classroom and they just think oh you guys are just laughing all day long like that's what joy right laughing every second of every day and i'm like i'm like that's not that's not what i mean when i say joyful classroom i think of joy and love as embodied attitudes and world views so joy is also in those quiet moments when i think about my students are writing in their journal
Speaker: about how they want to share their gifts with the world.
Speaker: And they're like in this deep thought and they're trying to think of that vocab word they just learned and how to spell it and they overcome it.
Speaker: Like that to me is joy.
Speaker: That's that moment of joy.
Speaker: It's when they answer that math question in a really interesting or, you know, different way.
Speaker: And they're sharing their thinking aloud and you just see them like beaming with pride.
Speaker: Like that to me is joy.
Speaker: Creating opportunities for joy.
Speaker: You know, like we've, many classrooms will have, you know, shared reading time.
Speaker: And to me, I'm like, you know what?
Speaker: You can read whatever you want, however you want.
Speaker: If you want to sit on top of your desk, if you want to sit in the corner, if you want to read with a flashlight, if you want to.
Speaker: Like, those are things that we can do as educators to facilitate joy in the classroom because it doesn't take anything away from us.
Speaker: It only increases the joy for them in the classroom.
Speaker: So art pieces they're creating, you know, love.
Speaker: We love on them when they celebrate and they build each other up when something's really difficult or insurmountable.
Speaker: And we collectively create this container.
Speaker: It's that when they come into this room, there's like joy, love and liberation.
Speaker: It's just, it's growing, it's sustaining.
Speaker: It's allowing all of us to feel like when we come in this room, all the facets of joy are welcome.
Speaker: All the facets of love are welcome.
Speaker: Liberation and all the facets of welcome.
Speaker: So it's in all of those moments.
Speaker: I don't think there is one standard definition, but that's the envisioning of a lot of people as well.
Speaker: Joy is just, you're laughing all day.
Speaker: It's so shallow.
Speaker: It turns it into this, you know, like a really shallow thing.
Speaker: Like we're just in here and it's just, I don't know, playing games or watching movies or something like using engagement strategies.
Speaker: But like when you talk about joy and love, there is no like deeper engagement than that, right?
Speaker: Like rooting those things in connections to each other and connections to community, connections to the world.
Speaker: you're not only lighting a spark, but you're getting the kids to work in tandem on these deep level issues, as you had mentioned, the one leading back to the war in Ukraine, to explore these huge themes that are present and active in the world rather than waiting until, again, high school to begin to have this awakening about community and joy and love and justice in the world.
Speaker: I'm really curious to kind of go back to what you had talked about
Speaker: being influenced by the was it the black freedom schools in the United States?
Speaker: Could you unpack a little bit more about how you got interested in that what you kind of saw as your interest and the transfer of what you found there into your philosophy and practice today?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think to me, that was really eyeopening was reading Dr. Goldie Muhammad's book, Cultivating Genius.
Speaker: And she talks a lot about black literary societies and because in a time when black people weren't allowed to read or told that, you know, they didn't have equal access education and they had to create their own schools and their own literary societies to help support people in building.
Speaker: their capacity to think critically, to read, to make those critical connections.
Speaker: And looking at it here locally where I'm in Ontario, studying and understanding that we had them here as well, where people were collecting together and opening small schools.
Speaker: They were teaching children to read as young as three, two years old, really investing.
Speaker: Because understanding that that was the portal to a whole other life is having access to the ability to read.
Speaker: And when I think about the Freedom School, it really makes me think that second part of that question about, you know, people who are kind of seeing the two cannot work in tandem.
Speaker: It just makes me think about there's this fear that the joy and the learning or the academic rigor can't coexist.
Speaker: There is this, yeah, they're like, no, no, if they're, you know, having fun, they're not learning.
Speaker: Or if there is this love in the classroom and, you know, there's no hierarchy where the teacher is giving information, kids really aren't learning.
Speaker: And I've heard that from many, many teachers, or they say things like, you know, they can't learn about the realities of life if, you know, the classroom doesn't mirror the harshness of the real world.
Speaker: And it's also my belief that classrooms are the microcosm for communities at large.
Speaker: So if we don't engage in that joyful learning, the authentic community building, the collective care, the unstructured and free play, the freedom dreaming, we're just continuing to prop up and create communities that are harsh, inequitable, and just harmful to us all.
Speaker: So students will continue to just be in these learning spaces that simply recreate these systems of harms that we really should be working to eradicate.
Speaker: So in those freedom schools, we learn that we're not only lending, liberal learning doesn't only lend itself, but it's necessary for meaningful academic learning.
Speaker: They're not in opposition to one another.
Speaker: And from what I've seen in my work with students, they always, always are more confident and capable in their learning when they experience true agency.
Speaker: And those freedom schools, it always started with protecting dignity and letting students have self-direction in their learning, knowing who students are and where they come from.
Speaker: Like those are all things that were core to those freedom schools.
Speaker: So it just really thinks it begs the question of, you know, how can we access the teachings and the example and the models of those, of those, the legacy from the past and how can we incorporate that into our classrooms?
Speaker: Dr. Goldie Muhammad does amazing work with teaching us about how to bring that into the classroom.
Speaker: It's connecting to such a deep history and a deep legacy and a deep purpose of liberation as opposed to, you know, those shallow notions of engagement.
Speaker: I think that's absolutely fascinating.
Speaker: I kind of had a follow-up to that, but maybe it doesn't need to be explored so much because I don't want to give the haters on this side too much credit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The work that you're engaged with really is like creating, you mentioned that word microcosm, it's really creating a model for like what the world could be.
Speaker: And then I think for students who experience that and then go on to experience either as they go throughout their education and find hierarchies and more traditional characteristics.
Speaker: educational experiences, they will always have that as a model, kind of as an inoculation of what learning could look like, of what community could look like, of what these things look like in absent of these hierarchies.
Speaker: And perhaps they would, you know, push back or be advocates or they would be able to see the ways that those things, you know, are unjust or the ways in which they oppress or the ways in which they exclude.
Speaker: with the goal perhaps of being then when they spend the rest of their lives outside of a school environment, they also see those things.
Speaker: It's really an inoculation, I think, against those.
Speaker: And you had mentioned this word like dignity in there as well and confidence.
Speaker: And that just comes out, I think, whenever I'm feeling down, I literally just go to your...
Speaker: Twitter handle.
Speaker: I'm just like, I need like a pick me up here.
Speaker: So I'm scrolling through and I'm seeing, but that is, that works to a T. You know, I think the idea of kids with dignity is such a, in, in a society that is
Speaker: overly hostile to children, right?
Speaker: Like is such a, is such a fantastical idea.
Speaker: And yet again, here is this space that you've created.
Speaker: It really is almost like the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker: All of the things that you've just been describing are like what are informing under the surface, right?
Speaker: Your own experiences and, you
Speaker: your mentors and your reading and your, you know, your own inquiry and investigation.
Speaker: And then the iceberg is just that little actionable tip that we get to see out in the world.
Speaker: And I can feel all of those influences.
Speaker: I'm so glad that we've, that you've been able to like explain all those things on here.
Speaker: I'm wondering, do you have like a favorite experience, you know, that, that stands out from the last year or two?
Speaker: I know kind of in the wake of COVID, you had mentioned a crisis of values and all of these things, but I guess amidst that, is there a powerful or hard fought moment from, from the last couple of years that you'd like to share that sort of is a microcosm of those ideas and values?
Speaker: Yeah, I, um,
Speaker: you know, thinking about that question, it really made me kind of have to pause and reflect, because I think there's so many moments that make me just there, I could say, why should rewind a lot of experiences that may maybe want me to leave the classroom and pull me away or push me out.
Speaker: And I've had so many moments on the opposite end that have made me feel, no, this is where I need to be.
Speaker: And this is where I want to be.
Speaker: And this is where I want to stay.
Speaker: So you're almost fighting, um,
Speaker: stay in the classroom, but I hold on to these moments.
Speaker: Yeah, just the tension constantly, I bet.
Speaker: Yeah, constant.
Speaker: So I think when I think about a lot of those moments that have, you know, grounded me, I think of how hard we fought to keep that joy and the hope alive in our learning space.
Speaker: For us, like music and dancing is a big one, just like dance breaks during the day, just so joyful.
Speaker: The kids love it.
Speaker: Stories, all kinds of stories, they bring so much light in our room.
Speaker: We love reading and those books really help ground us and
Speaker: make heavier conversations feel a lot lighter.
Speaker: But one moment that really sticks out to me this year is I was overhearing a conversation between two of my students whilst they were in the middle of creating an art piece.
Speaker: And one was talking about their aspiration to be an artist one day and like what they wanted to do.
Speaker: And she's like in the future when I'm really old and I quote, she said like 29.
Speaker: Oh gosh, as I crumble to dust.
Speaker: right and I'm like oh okay um so and I just listened just listening to her conversation the other one just said remember what Miss Elmy said she said we already are artists um and that's something that it just like positively reaffirmed me in so many ways in my decisions that I've made as an educator just students as embodied dreams um that they don't have to wait for those dreams to be realized in order to claim them because they're existing in it right now and I
Speaker: always tell them, you know, you can be and you are a writer, you're eight years old, because you write, you spend time crafting that skill.
Speaker: So you're a writer.
Speaker: You're a scientist at seven, because you use a scientific process, you experiment, you test, you adapt your theory.
Speaker: So I'm constantly just encouraging them to claim and name that.
Speaker: So it's just another way to further see themselves as inherently brilliant, as valued, of worthy,
Speaker: So just, I'm really committed to making sure that they, you know, I'm doing my best to make that space and for them to use that language of self-trust.
Speaker: So when I heard those students having that conversation, I'm like, there's a student who's embodied that like, you know what, I am these things and I am worthy.
Speaker: I am smart.
Speaker: I'm intelligent.
Speaker: I'm brilliant because I am doing these things.
Speaker: So I don't have to wait for a future date or time to claim these things.
Speaker: I am these things and I'm claiming it.
Speaker: So
Speaker: They're just so intuitive and they're just so vocal about what brings them joy.
Speaker: And it makes that so much easier when they talk to us and we listen for us to make that space for them to let that brilliance flourish as opposed to just guessing all the time.
Speaker: Kids are talking.
Speaker: We just need to listen.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So well said.
Speaker: I wonder, because I bet your experience with that tension that you had mentioned at the beginning of that response there of, I need to leave or should I leave?
Speaker: You go to sleep with those questions.
Speaker: And then the work in the classroom just affirms like, no, like this is the place that I need to be.
Speaker: This space is too important.
Speaker: These kids are.
Speaker: And then just constantly that back and forth.
Speaker: I'm willing to bet that that describes the experience for the vast majority of teachers in the profession right now.
Speaker: If you could be in a moment of vulnerability, perhaps, what are those things that you think I should or I need?
Speaker: What are those tensions that risk pulling you out?
Speaker: And then how do you...
Speaker: what causes you to kind of dismiss those things or kind of live in that tension like a lot of educators are right now?
Speaker: What do we have to say to those people?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, I think back, I remember having a similar conversation with one of my, you know, I call her my guide, but her name is Sarah Ishmael.
Speaker: And she talked a lot about how
Speaker: for a lot of us in education, we exist as trespassers.
Speaker: You know, we, these, these spaces, yeah, they don't, they're not for us.
Speaker: They don't exist for us.
Speaker: And when we come in, you know, it's like the, the episode of like the, the spy coming into a very heavily guarded area.
Speaker: You're just like tiptoeing everywhere.
Speaker: You're like, you know, hiding things.
Speaker: You're, you're just trying to exist.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: you really deeply feel like this space does not exist for me, not only as a student when I was a student, but even as an educator in a very deeply harmful way, because you're constantly having to explain yourself.
Speaker: And, you know, this is what I believe, and this is why we should do these things.
Speaker: I don't believe students should be suspended for X, Y, Z reasons.
Speaker: I don't believe we should spend it at all.
Speaker: And those are conversations you're constantly having to have.
Speaker: So you're up against a lot of things that, again, that
Speaker: misalignment.
Speaker: It just creates a fissure of like, no, this doesn't feel like, you know, I'm not really down with this.
Speaker: And, but then I go into the classroom, you know, and for the longest time in that middle year, middle years, when I, you know, after my first couple years of teaching, I thought, I'll just go in the classroom, I'll close the door.
Speaker: I'll, you know, I'll teach and I'll create this little bubble and I'll do what I need to do.
Speaker: And, you know, that's really going to feel me and
Speaker: And then COVID happened.
Speaker: And then, you know, then you're kind of, you're right, you're re-exposed to all the things that you're like, wait a second, what's this learning loss conversation?
Speaker: Wait a second, right?
Speaker: So then you're kind of re, the wound is reopened and you're like, wait a second, maybe now I should leave.
Speaker: And then it wasn't until, you know, conversations that I've had with other educators about, you know, what's really holding them.
Speaker: And for me, it's always been my students.
Speaker: It's always been my students that are just keeping me there.
Speaker: I can't imagine not being in the classroom.
Speaker: with them.
Speaker: I can't imagine, you know, getting to learn with them every day and getting to build world build with them and answer questions and learn with them.
Speaker: And but it's very, very difficult.
Speaker: I can't deny that.
Speaker: I won't, I won't say that it isn't.
Speaker: But it really makes me think about Bell Hooks when she talks about theory, it's not inherently healing or revolutionary.
Speaker: And it only fulfills that function when we actually direct it towards that end.
Speaker: And
Speaker: I think in a lot of ways, teachers, we've been told a lot of theories about practices and ideas.
Speaker: But when I was able to turn those theories and these practices and say, you know what, how can I use this for healing?
Speaker: How can I use this for care?
Speaker: How can I use this for joy and nurturing students?
Speaker: How can I imagine something better?
Speaker: Then I was able to say, okay, now I feel like I'm in the right spot.
Speaker: I want to be here and I can sustain myself with that vision of just
Speaker: Everything I'm being told or instructed to do, I'm just redirecting it and saying like, I'm going to use this for healing.
Speaker: I'm going to use this for joy.
Speaker: I'm going to use this for care, community.
Speaker: And that's how I've been able to kind of sustain myself and to really be intentional about that.
Speaker: Because like you said, teachers are being inundated with a lot of things right now.
Speaker: A lot of things.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: Just recentering those values as like your North Star to just follow.
Speaker: And how can I...
Speaker: treat the crises of the moment to actually, as you had mentioned, redirect and reiterate those values.
Speaker: That I think is just such a powerful way of looking at the challenges and the crises that we do face in education.
Speaker: Because I think as educators, we are both tempted and pressured to kind of just give in and perhaps put the next test or put the content or put this future goal of preparation or this, that, or the other thing at the center.
Speaker: And then we lose focus
Speaker: on the rest of it.
Speaker: And it becomes sort of the pedagogy practice becomes aligned to where the ends justify the means.
Speaker: So we diminish student agency and autonomy, we diminish community, and we isolate students.
Speaker: And we, you know, we use technology in the service of alienation instead of in the service of community, because we say,
Speaker: You have to achieve X, Y, and Z for this, that, or the other thing.
Speaker: But if we can just take inventory, probably a step one on what are those values, and you've explicated those very, very well, I think.
Speaker: Joy, liberation, all those kinds of things.
Speaker: That I think is incredible.
Speaker: I have kind of a question that I think...
Speaker: Probably should have come a little bit earlier in the conversation, but you had mentioned it a couple of times here, like to kind of be a model of,
Speaker: that may be counter to your own experiences as a student.
Speaker: Again, I wonder, like, from your background and perspective, like, what was your experience of school?
Speaker: And how did it look similar or different from the world building that you are providing for students here?
Speaker: How does your experience inform that work or the models that you wish to be or not, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, that's next to sticking in.
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: I'm ending with the hard stuff here.
Speaker: No, it's good.
Speaker: I think, and this is my thing, I can talk about the ways in which I felt invisibilized by my teachers.
Speaker: I think a lot of that was just, you were never seen, you were never, I think in the same ways, witnessed that I'm trying to achieve with my own students.
Speaker: you could go through a whole day sometimes without your teacher ever really acknowledging you.
Speaker: Like, I think that was a common thing where, you know, you just go to school, you sit in your desk, you like face the front, your teacher's up there talking, you know, sometimes they might call on you, but sometimes I remember going through whole days where my teacher would never say my name or like acknowledge me.
Speaker: And I can ruminate and think about those examples, but I always just go back to the teacher who did it for me.
Speaker: And I try to model the
Speaker: that in my classroom and that was my kindergarten teacher miss lee um and the way that she deeply acknowledged and um celebrated and would constantly uh touch base with us and she cared about us in a deep way that everything she did you knew it was rooted in like how can i be in service to my students she just like play us songs on the piano have us sit up there with her and like she's like you don't know how to play but let's do it and like let's try i love it right and
Speaker: I remember like even special things like on our birthdays, she would make us a special crown.
Speaker: And even outside of singing happy birthday, she would tell us multiple times in that day, like, I'm just so happy that you exist in the world.
Speaker: I'm just so happy that you're with us in this class.
Speaker: We just love you so much.
Speaker: And being like five years old and having your teacher like see you in that way was just so incredibly like powerful for me.
Speaker: So when I think about
Speaker: the teachers that maybe, you know, struggled to do that for me, I always think back to her as she's the light.
Speaker: She's like you said, the touchstone that you say like, you know what, maybe my other teachers weren't there yet in their, in their trajectory as teachers, but she was there and she did that for me.
Speaker: And, and that's something I do with my own kids.
Speaker: I model after her, like on their birthday, we do special things and we sing and we, we tell them how much we love them and how excited we are that they're with us.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: Just those small things that just, it makes a world of difference.
Speaker: You know, sometimes I think teachers, we overthink things.
Speaker: We, like you said, it's engagement.
Speaker: We have to do X, Y, and Z to get kids to learn.
Speaker: And sometimes it's just checking in with a kid and saying like, I see you, like, how are you today?
Speaker: What are you excited to learn about?
Speaker: Like that goes further than anything else.
Speaker: It's not hard.
Speaker: They're just people.
Speaker: It's not.
Speaker: That's the thing.
Speaker: They're just people.
Speaker: Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker: Just treat them like people.
Speaker: Yeah, well, that that I mean, shout out to her for for starters for planning that scene and being that model, you know, for you.
Speaker: But then also like you're carrying on her legacy as well and being that for kids.
Speaker: It's exactly what we were just talking about 10 minutes ago, where it's like they are going to have that one example of Miss Elmy's class.
Speaker: as like whether or not they get into education, maybe they'll have kids who will have educational experiences and they'll have, you know, that model and remember how they were treated and they'll remember that community that you had built in your classroom space as as that home place for them.
Speaker: And they will want that replicated throughout as well.
Speaker: Yeah, that that is just a tremendous way to carry on her legacy for you as well.
Speaker: is there anything else, Hannah, that we missed in the course of this conversation that you're like, Nick, I, I would be remiss if I did not get this in before, before we ended here.
Speaker: Um, no, I just, I really want to thank you for the time.
Speaker: Um, and the, like, for me, I was like, wait, like Nick wants to talk to me on this talk.
Speaker: Like this is the, this is the epitome of like human restoration project.
Speaker: Um, it's just like, it's, it's everything so powerful.
Speaker: The work that you guys are doing.
Speaker: So, um, yeah, it just,
Speaker: such a gift.
Speaker: And I just think I want to give a shout out to all the teachers out there that are really just doing the best that they can and caring forward for their students.
Speaker: And the things that they do to resist against a lot of the dehumanizing things that we, you know, see and experience in schools, and it's not easy.
Speaker: But they're not alone, you know, and one thing I have learned, and that's even just through like the conference this summer is that when we get together and we
Speaker: combine and pool our knowledge together and you feel like you have supports out there, it's very, very, very powerful and not as isolating to know that these spaces exist and that the work is being done and we can lean on one another to keep going.
Speaker: And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, subscribe.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'm going to clip that out forever now.
Speaker: And I'm just going to, I'm going to use that as promotion.
Speaker: I'll have you sign something after this.
Speaker: Oh gosh.
Speaker: It's exactly what you're saying, right?
Speaker: The things that dehumanize kids dehumanize adults as well.
Speaker: So it's like we're both on the brunt of these dehumanizing structures, practices, systems.
Speaker: But then the process of humanization, right, for kids actually works to empower adults too.
Speaker: I think that not only is a testament to like this conversation and hearing you speak to that very much humanized, right?
Speaker: This is the work of teacher as professional.
Speaker: Like this is you, you know, leveraging your ability and practice and experience, you know, to improve the lives of kids.
Speaker: And that is evident in the work that you do with kids as well.
Speaker: So it's just a testament to, right, that notion that it doesn't have to be dehumanizing for kids and adults.
Speaker: We can rehumanize it and actually change.
Speaker: Teachers can feel empowered and want to be in those classroom spaces and kids can feel empowered and want to be in those spaces too.
Speaker: And how can we then turn that into this transformative experience as well?
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: World building, invisibilized, home place, trespassers.
Speaker: You had mentioned, you know, in your educational journey, giving language to your experiences.
Speaker: And I thank you for giving language to describe what we see only a sliver of on your social media too.
Speaker: Thank you for sharing those experiences with us.
Speaker: Thanks for speaking with me today.
Speaker: And thanks for the work that you do.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker: Thank you again for listening to Human Restoration Project's podcast.
Speaker: I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to push the progressive envelope of education.
Speaker: You can learn more about progressive education, support our cause, and stay tuned to this podcast and other updates on our website at humanrestorationproject.org.
