Transcript
Speaker: On behalf of the Bite Big team, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are recording on today, the Boon Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. We recognise that with over 60,000 years of experience, First Peoples of Australia are most definitely the original storytellers, designers and artists this country, and we pay our respect to their elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker: Hello, before we get stuck into this episode of Bite Big, let me tell you a little bit about who the hell I am and why this content is important to me. My name's Amber Bonney and for the past 25 years, I've been reshaping iconic Australian and international brands, helping them stay relevant, get noticed and be remembered in the good kind of way. I'm a passionate feminist and committed to advocating for better representation of women in senior creative and marketing roles, which is why this podcast is proudly brought to you by my business, The Edison Agency.
Speaker: If your brand or organisation needs help aligning your vision to your reputation, then you can find us at www.edison.agency you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Let's get into it.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Season 4, Episode 1 of a special Bite Big Series. Coming to you from the centre of London, I'm Amber Bonney, Brand Strategist and Agency CEO. And right now, we're on the road in the yeah UK to meet the women building culture and challenging norms. This season is a spotlight on the pulse of global creative leadership. And today, I'm genuinely delighted to be joined by a woman who's built something extraordinary for over a decade. I am, of course, speaking about one of UK's most prolific voices. It is talented Vanessa Sanjuke. Welcome, Vanessa. Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Now, sit back and listen to your success as I integrate your bio. Vanessa is the founder and CEO of a global talent marketplace, Girls Talk, a community marketing agency that has connected over 60,000 women across 37 countries to brands who actually want to reach them in a meaningful way. Brands like Apple, Meta, Visa, Beats by Dre.
Speaker: Vanessa's career is as layered as her ambition. She started with a background of biomedical science with ambitions of becoming a doctor, ended up discovering her real calling in corporate responsibility with J.P. Morgan. She built her first social enterprise at university, watched it fail, went back to do a master's, started Girls Talk. then did D&I strategy for 89,000 people across 70 markets at Standard Chartered. She's advised the UK Prime Minister and the Mayor of London, launched an app and then hit number four on the Apple business charts as a podcaster. I mean, that is pretty extraordinary. Vanessa, I've been thinking about ah this mantra a lot since we started our research for today's episode because you've built this multi-dimensional career and I can't wait to jump in and get under the skin of your mantra and how you've used this in your daily life. So let's get into it. Your personal mantra is failure is not an option.
Speaker: Please tell us, is this a belief, a shield for yourself or or pressure you put on yourself to perform? You know what, when I was thinking about what my mantra would be, i can't remember, and it's terrible, my memory is is bad, but I can't remember where I read this, but it was this year when i was going through a really challenging time in the business, And I came across this line where it said, failure is not an option. And I just thought, that's it. That is what I'm going to really have as my mantra going forward, wow that I cannot fail. And if you kind of think like that, you are always going to find a solution.
Speaker: So sometimes we have problems and we think there's no way out, yeah but there always is. And so for me, it's like this year, just I cannot fail. Do you think this is something that you have inherently potentially had but haven't recognised it as a mantra. Are you an exceptionally sort of driven, i mean, looking at the bio that I just read through, I'd absolutely say you are a powerhouse of a driven individual. But do you think this is something that potentially has been carrying you?
Speaker: If I'm honest, I can be... Earlier on in my career, I was a bit pessimistic. And I can be at times. I have to really motivate myself. yeah So i haven't necessarily thought, you know what, failure is not an option. Because I'm quite comfortable with failure. Because I feel like when you're building something, you know you learn from your mistakes. But I just feel that where I am right now, and with everything that I've learned, i've kind of moved into this just...
Speaker: you know, block out failing and just go forward. Go forward. Yeah. And do you think that because you run your own business now, the stakes are higher? You put so much time, money, resource. I've been doing girls talk now full time for five years. And so that's a you know really long time to be out of the workplace, right. And sort of into entrepreneurship. And so it's like, It's significant. So you kind of feel like you don't want all of the expertise that you've developed, all of the connections, if all of the hard slog to be wasted. Wasted for nothing. Yeah. That does feel like a lot of pressure. it is. It is. It is.
Speaker: Does it mean that you don't want to allow yourself to quit? Or is it about when times feel tough, you redefine what failure feels like so that you're, I suppose, releasing that pressure point? Yeah, so I'm comfortable with...
Speaker: things not working out. Yes, it is a failure, but I don't like to call it that. So I just feel like sometimes you do have to know, and I have done it this year, walked away from certain things, sunset certain projects. I've done a pivot of my business model. I've had a startup last year that had to shut down. So I've had things that have failed.
Speaker: But for me, I just feel that I want to get into the mindset of actually like that thing about the overarching theme of failing in business, like walking away from entrepreneurship. I'm like, okay, it doesn't matter like how I make my money, as long as it's ethical. As long as you're making the money. As long as you're making the money. So it's like having to pivot. It's more so me saying,
Speaker: stick with entrepreneurship rather than the how and the you know the the what and and the mechanism but it's just like stick to the why and you know keep on this journey yeah and maybe it's how you do it might change how do you show up in those tough times? Like you just said, you were going through a tough time. What does that feel like when you feel like things are falling apart? Because often, i mean, you have people that look at entrepreneurs and think, I could never do that. it sort of seems like it's an an effortless, you know, duck just gliding along the water. But as you and I both know, it is ah quite the scramble of those duck legs underneath. What does it feel like in those moments? And do you send to sort of come out of it quite quickly or do you do you sit with it for a little bit?
Speaker: I always say to people, do not become an entrepreneur if if you don't need to, number one. so for me, my journey, i kind of, I just reached a point, i was working in a very toxic environment. I had a side hustle and I thought, let me just do this full time. i was very happy to do both because the reason why I say that is being an entrepreneur is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And it is the hardest thing you will ever do because but one month you you know you might have lots of money in your account Three months later. It's feast or famine, like consistently. It is literally, you've got like like one P, like you've got nothing. And then next week you're rich. You know, it's it's this up and down, up and down, up and down. And that is mentally exhausting. it' It creates anxiety because you really don't know. So you can put out pitches to clients and get 10 no's and it's like, okay, I've got, you know, two months of runway left. How am I going to how am I going to do this? But I think sometimes the beautiful thing about entrepreneurship is if you put this energy out, I just always feel like something comes through for me. Like something always comes through. It's crazy how the universe works. And so if you just kind of keep going and and and commit to yourself, okay, I'm going to figure it out. It's great. And what I do is i always, when I've got hard times like that,
Speaker: I really pull on my community. So I have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs and I confide in them. I talk to them. and Somebody's given me so many tips around different resources that you can sort of you know tap into or how they manage their finances. And so I think it's important to talk. It's good to talk. It's good to have your community because if you don't, sometimes you feel like I'm the only one. So when I've spoken to so many friends and it's different industries with, you know, in terms of the economy, the global economy right now, it's very challenging. It's been like this for two years. yeah But it doesn't matter if you're in beauty or fashion or what I do. Everyone is everyone is struggling. yeah Everyone is struggling. So when you know that, you feel like, OK, I'm not alone. It's macroeconomics. It's nothing to do with me or that I've got a bad idea. Yeah, it's just a really tough time. And it's thinking about, OK, what I've just decided now is I literally take it one day at a time.
Speaker: Yeah. if i If I try and think, yeah, how am I going to get to the end of the month? It's like, listen, too much it's too much. Just what do you have to do today? or you know, the most I'll do is a week. Like, what do I have to get done this week? And just keep pushing. Keep going. Yeah. This is my 15th year in business. And I learned in the first sort of two or three years that what you mentioned before really resonated about you cannot control people responding to your proposals in time or especially when you're working with big organisations like you do, you know, they don't necessarily have the empathy to understand what small practitioners are going through. don't. Like we've got cash flow to manage, you know, we've got bills to pay, And so for them, they're like, oh, you'll be so lucky. You so should be so grateful because ah we're going to we're going to delay this for another, you know, three weeks. And you're like, oh, yeah no, I'm not grateful. This is not exactly not good. This is not good. But yeah, you do have to, you're right, you do have to let it go because it consumes you otherwise. And there's literally nothing you can do to to influence that outcome. You just have to trust that it will deliver. the universe will deliver and that the positivity i also believe that yeah if you sit in that negativity for too long or the anxiety nothing positive manifests from that either it's just about pushing through and trying to think about I always think about okay like how can I move the dial closer to where I need to be like who could I email who could I reach out to and I'm always like we're kind of we're launching
Speaker: ah sort of new projects and almost like a new sort of joint venture. And I'm doing a lot of business development and it's just like every day I'm just reaching out to somebody like at least one person who I feel I can do an introduction or just trying to think who can you tell about what you're doing? Because the more that people know about what you do, when you have to offer, when it's that day when you've got, you know, you're tight, somebody might just come into your inbox and say, I've got an opportunity and that's it. Yeah. It is an exhausting hustle though, isn't it? Like the energy it takes to constantly have to convince people of your value. Yeah.
Speaker: It's really exhausting. It's hard. It's really exhausting. i i want to talk a little bit about your community. So you built this 60,000 plus community of women across 37 countries. I mean, that's remarkable.
Speaker: Before you actually had a product per was it community first because that's what you needed and then the commerce came after? Yeah, so I started Girls Talk while I was working full time. So I was working um in the city of London, so like in the financial services. So I just noticed that there was a gap. Nobody was really doing events ah for women. There was not us a space for women to come together and talk about our careers.
Speaker: And so I just thought, let me just start doing events. I'm really passionate about it and did it for free for about two years. Didn't charge anyone. Just ask venues to let us and host us for free and ask friends and people that I knew my network to speak for free and just grew it organically. And then it was after two years, the people in the audience were women who had worked for big corporates and they would say,
Speaker: Can you work with my company to help us you know attract more women? yeah Can we fund what you're doing? Can we support what you're doing? So people had noticed what I was doing. Yeah, so it was more of a movement really. exactly. That turned into a commercial enterprise. Yeah, exactly. and just Then I just sort of saw that actually there's a way to make income from it, to make it sustainable and and grow it.
Speaker: yeah You have worked with really impressive brands, as you mentioned before, Apple, Meta, Visa. How do you curate who you work with? You know it's interesting because I've changed that this year. I'm now very selective and more intentional.
Speaker: Before we were very kind of diversity and inclusion focused. We're not that anymore. So it was very much around just making sure that the brands that we worked with, what was their strategy? You know, why did they want to work with us? And also just making sure that ethically there wasn't like I would sort of, you know, do a lot of search and research to see if there was any employee tribunals, what was their glass door review to make sure that You know, if we're trying to connect our community jobs and opportunities to make sure that these employees are really... Yeah, it's like a police check. Yeah, exactly. A clearance, a DPS, we call it here. But yeah, just making sure that they've got a good culture and we're not, you know, connecting our community to companies who are just going to be toxic places. So I would do that. But now we've kind of, you know, pivoted and it's more so around.
Speaker: I just want to work with brands that are in it for the long game, that really care about the community, that are authentic. And also the people I'm looking at the people. Do they say what they mean? Do they have integrity? that That's really big for me. Yeah. and And so I'm kind of trying to be a bit more selective with who I work with now. Because when you when you need money sometimes, cash it's always good when you're business. Yeah. You always need money, right? not going to turn... Well, it's privilege to be able to say no or even think about curating your portfolio. Yeah. yeah be you have to be a very comfortable position. But sometimes even not, you know, I think...
Speaker: I just got to a place where I'd rather work long term, like high revenue with smaller clients, because sometimes when you take on everyone, you might have a client that's not really sort of in terms of like revenue, but you're just doing it maybe because it's a good name or you kind something. Yeah, the profile building. Yeah. But now I'm like actually, you know, high quality, long term strategic partnerships is what I'm trying to work out because it's less emotionally taxing.
Speaker: You mentioned just sort of moving away a bit from the DE&I or potentially broadening your offer. Obviously, global power changes over the last couple of years yeah have really, certainly in Australia, there's been a lot of big blue chip companies that have, you know, come out tap dancing about how um they're withdrawing their D&I functions. have Is that one of the motivations for you in looking for other areas to influence? Yeah. I mean, I just realised, you know, i don't care.
Speaker: Sadly. It's a really sad. It's really sad. Because it it felt like even if companies were forced, it was at least benefiting the employees. Exactly. Even if leadership didn't really, if it was just about compliance, it was still having a positive impact on employees. Exactly. Whereas nothing at all and deprioritising that. Yeah. of course is going to impact the same marginalised people exactly as it was set up to protect. Exactly. and But then I feel like there are some companies that are like, we don't care, ah take us to court, do what you like, but we're still going to you know move forward with it. I think Apple is a really good one. yeah They're just like...
Speaker: We're doing this. They understand that diversity and inclusion is why they are a trillion dollar company. Well, the data supports. Yeah, exactly. voices that you have that come from diverse backgrounds, the better the thinking, the better it makes connection with consumers. Like it just makes business sense. so It does. It's an unusual, it's just an arrogance really that drives. It is. And so that's why you just think the companies that are really serious about making money will keep their DEI functions. mean, you've got JP Morgan as well as another one. So I feel like the companies that um took a step back, now we know. I'm like very grateful because I'm like, now I know you don't care. That's fine. I don't want to work with you anymore. Very transparent. Yeah, very transparent. And the companies that do care, now I can actually see it's sort of like almost you've got a pot that don't and a pot that do. And I'm looking at the pot that do going forward. And the pot that don't is great. They've exposed themselves. Yeah. And I'm working with those that, you know, do. Yeah. Well, the pot that don't is sort of your five to ten year funnel because once leadership changes, that's the thing they might be coming back in. i honestly feel it's too late. They don't realise. The damage that they've done now is it's almost irreversible because we've got social media, we've got data points. you You can't actually hide how you've you've you've kind of stepped back in your commitments. And now you're going to be trying to talk to Gen Z and Gen Alpha about
Speaker: And they're just not going to have it. They're like, you're fake. You don't care about us. Like, they're going to be a harder tough a crowd to persuade. Yes. Then, you know, millennials and and Gen X, where hopefully by that time we might be sort of looking at retirement. Yeah, exactly. And on a yacht somewhere. Exactly. Hopefully. So it's these Gen Zs and Gen Alpha are really going to, they're not going to forget. You know, when we look at how companies have now pulled back on DEI, There's high youth unemployment. They're not going to forget what these businesses have done. They've turned their back on them.
Speaker: It's going to be difficult. I don't really know. It'll backfire. Yeah, it's gonna be it's so it's going to backfire a lot. And that sort of cultural behavioural change at a corporate level takes decades to reverse. It takes in a lot of money. So it's like, oh, you thought you were going to save a couple of quid. Oh, so we undo the damage, it's going to cost them like times five.
Speaker: You work obviously with with women at the cornerstone of what you do. What do you think brands and businesses get wrong about what women actually need? It's the stereotypes.
Speaker: It's the stereotypes of women, for example, are not interested in learning tech, for example, that we're just interested in beauty and hair and and the soft girl era. I think it's those kind of the trad wives. It's that stereotyping of what women are interested in and what women want.
Speaker: And I think they get it wrong. And I always say to brands, you need to think about women as people. and they are, you know, a a collective of individuals, but everyone has different interests and different niches.
Speaker: And you as a brand, you have to think about, okay, how do we fit? Like what type of community would want our product rather than trying to speak to the masses? I think brands don't necessarily think about their customers as Yeah, it's just a binary. We're speaking to this or this. Yeah, and it's like you've got to, you're speaking to lots of different people because people are,
Speaker: you know very holistic and have different interests. Yeah. And you don't want to kind of like miss, you know, your, you know, your customer you or your person. Yeah. One of the things um we've been talking about over the last three days of recording is just how multidimensional so many women are, especially women in business and women have started their own business. It's never just a singular thing.
Speaker: you know, I've done this. This is a career. It's always, I've done this. I've had five side hustles. I've also, you know, worked for the un I've also done a PhD. I've also volunteered here. I've also, there is so much complexity to women. And certainly when I think about gender equity or or parity is when,
Speaker: Women can be the, you know, soft, gentle, nurturing type, but can also be a complete arse. And, you know, in the same way that men can. Exactly. And that's totally acceptable. Yeah. There's so many facets to us. And...
Speaker: We're so many different things, different people, right? And so to pigeonhole us, I think also it's just a ah marketing disaster almost as well. Yeah. You've worked in parliament and banking and startups. So speaking about breadth of career, where did you feel most like you'd sort of made it from ah from a power and influence perspective?
Speaker: You would think Parliament. like When I got that job at Parliament, I thought, oh, this is this is it the most powerful institution in the UK. But I didn't really feel and like I had much power there. Was it disappointing?
Speaker: Very disappointing. yeah Very, very disappointing. It's very bureaucratic. It's very traditional. Slow. a Slow pace, exactly. And it was toxic, very toxic.
Speaker: I felt the most powerful running my own startup, I would say. Yeah. I think working in banking was great because my last ride was across... 70 markets and that was exciting. You felt like you had this big, massive international bank behind you and people are always impressed when you say, oh yeah, i worked for this bank. But I feel my most powerful now, like doing my own thing, being my own boss, being able to do what I want to do I feel like startups, that's where I felt the most powerful. Yeah. And what did you take, what do you think each of those sort of spheres of your um career gave you now that's enabled that empowerment?
Speaker: I think working at Parliament, it was during the time of when we left the European Union And it was a time when it was complicated. It was very stressful. lot of MPs were resigning. We had um Theresa May resign as prime minister and it was chaotic and very stressful. And so I think I learned resilience and I learned how to work with narcissists and toxic people and liars and it sounds really politicians. Yeah, basically politicians, right? So learned how to deal with very difficult people. so now
Speaker: I can handle to anyone, you know, I, you know, yeah it's good practice for working with some clients sometimes. Exactly. Exactly. You know, the thing with organizations is you have a collection of people. It's not one. So yes, you can have an experience with a client for two years. It's really wonderful. And then new leadership comes in and suddenly it's not wonderful anymore. Exactly. And you'll be able to draw on your parliamentary experience. Yeah, exactly. It's,
Speaker: It really set me up. And then I guess in banking, just learned so much around how to operate on a global level. And it's quite interesting. Shortly after we had the pandemic, Girls Talk kind grew overnight. So it was very much UK based. I mean, we became a global organization. And what was the precipice for that? Just because we...
Speaker: Ended up moving our events on virtual, to make it virtual. So before it was always in person. So then you had the opportunity to reach a broader audience. Yeah, and people found us from different countries. And then we started going to places like Berlin. Germany is one of our largest markets. Wow. So it happened organically. So everything I learned in banking around how to think about, you know, regulation, how to talk to different audiences, how to think globally, that also helped me in terms of the startups.
Speaker: Well, you take a negative experience and then commercialise it into exactly so something for yourself. yeah yeah Of those experiences, where did you feel the most underestimated?
Speaker: i feel like I know the answer to this. Do you know what? i've Actually, I think I was a threat. Yeah. Yeah. I was a threat in both places. In Parliament, my managers at the time, i think, saw me as a threat because I was quite young and very talented.
Speaker: And ambitious. Ambitious, yeah. Probably moved at a pace five times their glacial. um Yeah, and I had a high profile. yeah So I was still doing girls talk on the side and I was in newspapers and I was winning awards and they were like, how are you working at Parliament and running this business on the side? And I was like, it's perfectly normal. yeah am I do it in my spare time, so I threatened. And then when I worked in banking, so one of my colleagues, she had been there longer than me, and we so she but we both were the same level, which at the time it was director level when you look at the bands.
Speaker: And she said to me, oh, I see everybody as competition. And she was just like, that's really a healthy way to embrace someone. is your team member Exactly. to Talk to your team member. And she was just a horrible person, to be honest. Yeah. And um but she had made it clear that I see you as a threat. I see you as competition. And if I wasn't talented. Right. She wouldn't have said that. So I think she probably thought. She's talented. Yeah. And she's a threat and she did everything. Of course, there's only space for one talented woman in a large organization, that isn't there? In the DEI team as well. Like how ironic is that, you know? right And so I think rather than underestimated, I think I was a threat to some.
Speaker: What do you wish that younger women, you know, some of our listeners are sort of at that beginning of their career. What do you wish they knew about power that was potentially misunderstood?
Speaker: The most powerful people ain't got a clue. At Parliament, for example, I did a lot of work for the Speaker of the House at the time. He was really lovely, I must say, really, really lovely.
Speaker: So I managed two of his programs, his diversity programs. And so we would have like these extravagant launches at the Speaker's House at Parliament. But he was so busy because you know you' he's in the chamber all day.
Speaker: So I would have to write his speech for him. And so there was an event and, you know, he was giving this wonderful speech and this lady said to me, my manager, oh, he's just amazing. Like the way he talks. So eloquent. So eloquent. And my manager went, oh, I wonder how he does it and looked at me yeah in a funny way.
Speaker: And um you just don't realize it was actually, I wrote the speech, but he's the most powerful man, I'd say in parliament. And everyone's like, oh my God, he's so this. And it's like, i I wrote the speech. And so. It's just puppet at some point. Yeah, exactly. So I realized the most powerful people, they just have really good teams, right? They have really good teams yeah and and they don't know everything and they rely on their teams who do. And they are the ones that have the charisma, that can sell the vision.
Speaker: So you don't have to look at somebody who you think is really powerful. They have a team of people who are making everything tick along. They're scaffolding them. Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's what I learned. and That's what I would say to a young person. Yeah, I like that sentiment.
Speaker: want to talk about female leadership in general. As a black female founder pitching in partnerships with some of the biggest companies, what did the room look like for you at the beginning of your career and has it changed now?
Speaker: It's still the same. There's not many, if not any black women when I'm pitching in the room. And I really wish I had a white male co-founder. I always say this out loud. I really wish I did because I think it'd be easier. i just didn't find one. yeah i didn't find a white male co-founder.
Speaker: If I had, I really feel it would have easier. There's a lot of underlying bias, a lot of questioning around... your metrics and can you really deliver? And I always think, God, if I just had a well You just have to work so much harder yeah you convince people. Yeah, you do. You have to work harder to convince people. When you give your prices, it's very much like I know if it was a man that was saying it, it would be like, oh, of course, yeah. yeah you know But as a black female, it's like, well, why should why should we pay you? Please come with all of your credentials. Exactly, come all your credentials. And also, have been told, this is not me, but I've been told, and especially when I started, that I look a bit younger than I actually am. And so people are like, why should we why should we pay this little girl, this young girl, you know, this money? And it's like, I'm a grown woman who's worked um extensively, you know, and it's that kind of bias about appearance or maybe how you present. If you present a bit more youthful, you've got energy and you're not, you know, oh, you're a bit, don't want to use the word juvenile, but it's that kind of like,
Speaker: just I guess generational ageism or sort of like yeah well ageism goes both ways right and and you know there's a pretty small window where women and seem to be respected because you have yes no agency when you're young and under 20 maybe 25 to 30 you hit your peak and then it starts declining from there exactly but yeah certainly a lot of women that I've spoken to who are you know young and ambitious have that same challenge is that they walk into ah a a C-suite room and people ask them you know put their coffee orders in exactly you know that actually happens it's not just a you know don't know a TV series that legitimately happens exactly it does and you just get the looks and it's it's just much harder and I think
Speaker: you know I think you just need that mix of voices because when you have the mix of voices, there's more accountability. We're all human and we all have biases. It's not a bad thing. like you can't You shouldn't feel guilty because it's a natural thing to have a bias. right But the more diverse people you have in the room, the more challenges. it might be, okay, but why don't you like Vanessa?
Speaker: What is it about Vanessa? If everyone thinks the same, it's like, oh, I just don't know about her. or I don't know about girls talk. But If there's more voices challenging and drilling down, then you get a better outcome. Like actually they can challenge and say, maybe we're we're being a bit biased here or maybe we need to review. yeah And that's the thing about like having the personal confidence that when you see it in yourself, it's actually that self-curation that...
Speaker: You need to recognise and sort of, oh, maybe that has a bias attached to it or maybe I need to be open or actually that was a really, you know, small-minded thing to do. But you you need, I suppose, the confidence to the or the lack of arrogance to be able to do that. Exactly. and have people who will challenge you. Yeah.
Speaker: When you think about women that you look up to that speak with a sense of authority, is there anyone that comes to mind? I love like Oprah Winfrey. Just the way she speaks, she's got a deep voice and I just love her. So soothing. So soothing. It's just like, oh I could listen to her all day. And i I do want to try and be more like Oprah, but then you have to be yourself, right? I'm like, who she's very calm. And I love Michelle Obama. Oh, I saw her in Melbourne recently. oh She came to Australia. And was beyond excited just to be in the same space. You're in the same oxygen. I didn't care really what she said. I was so excited to to just be there and yes yeah i I agree I think she's an absolute she like the intellect she's so clever but also composed beyond measure like when I look at someone like her I'm I just think I'm too fiery she has such composure and grace yet such sharp intellect as well and like that is a very rare it
Speaker: It is. like the way she yeah she The way that she articulates herself is just amazing. And then I like, I mean, it might be controversial, but Kamala Harris. yes I just love the way she kind of just goes for it. She's really ballsy. She and will challenge a lot of men in the room. She's very, you know, inspiring to me. So I think like those three.
Speaker: Biting Big and Chewing Like Hell is the sentiment of this podcast. It's actually my mantra. Oh, I love this. Yeah, that's where the idea for um Biting Big came from. was It's just something that's been with me for a really long time. I like to jump in and then think about it later. I love it.
Speaker: You started your career wanting to be a doctor and then pivoted. So from biomedical scientist into Dee and I. What did studying biology give you in your later career? Because I feel like that's a real bite big move. It I'm going to do this then I'm going to pivot. And then I'm going to go it somewhere else. For me, I think working in tech, it's actually helped because it's quite sort of similar in terms of like analysing data, the way that you have to read, understand information, learn new things. So it's helped me a lot in that aspect, the way I think. Like I analyse things. I'm very much data-driven. when you're doing the sciences, you have to look at the data, going into the lab, doing multiple tests and testing things out. I love to test things out and just trial and error. And that's what comes from the lab. You would just test things out and in you have your control and and that would be your process. mean, it's a good way to connect that back to the failure is not an option because in science –
Speaker: there It is all about the experiment. You're always failing. The failure is the success. Exactly. Because if you're trying to test for something or if you're trying to sort of curate that a vaccine, you are failing so many times. youre You're doing your experiments or your trials and then you get your, right, works. So I think I became comfortable with that thought process. Yeah. yeah And why did you pivot?
Speaker: So I actually didn't really... Want to study medicine. So I was doing biomedical science because I was going to do medicine as a graduate degree. But my parents were just very much strict when I was growing up and I wanted to be in the arts. So I loved to write.
Speaker: I loved music. Strict parents. That feels like that's going be Yeah, parents, they were like... You've got a brain, girl. You better use it. Exactly. And they were like, you can't make money as an artist. You need to choose doctor, lawyer, or accountant. a very sensible parental advice. I know. It was sensible. But it wasn't really what I wanted to do. So I kind of graduated and I kind of started my first social enterprise at university. And then that's when I kind of found out about the ESG program. and corporate responsibility and sustainability and realized, oh, actually I like this. Yeah.
Speaker: When we're thinking about Biting Big, what's been your biggest professional leap of faith? Maybe outside of your starting a business, because that is a leap of faith. Has there been another? The biggest jump was... when I left UK Parliament, it was just so toxic. And there was there was always this joke about either people do two years max or 30 years. Right. Yeah, literally. yeah No one's in between.
Speaker: Is that because they're just sort of downtrodden after two years? Yeah. So they just compliance all the way through? Exactly. So it's either you're two years and you just get out yeah or you get so used to it and it can get so comfortable. So leaving that, I really, really wanted to work together in corporate, diversity and inclusion.
Speaker: And so i took a risk and I took on a contract role and literally i had just secured like a mortgage for my first flat So I was going through the mortgage process and so we hadn't closed, but I left. And so when So left your role while you were still trying to close your mortgage. Yeah, closed the mortgage. And I went to not not a new permanent job. It was a contract. It was a maternity cover for nine months. And the lady said, i want to come back.
Speaker: And I was like, I've just taken on a mortgage, but that was a big risk for me. and I thought, I just thought, screw it. I'm going to do it. I'm just going to figure it out. This is a really good opportunity. I want to work in corporate. So I was working in ah in a global law firm, heading up their DEI team and and corporate responsibility. It was like 20 markets. And it was really, it was a fantastic way for me to get my foot in the door in corporate. And I just thought,
Speaker: let me just take a leap of faith. I'm sure I'll find something afterwards. And I did. I found the standard chartered role. But yeah, that was the biggest risk. That's not a little bite. That is like a monumental bite. Yeah, it was. Yeah. But you know what? I just believe that, you know, the universe will make a way. If you have an opportunity, just go for it. You will figure it out. If we think about a 21-year-old Vanessa, if you could go back and give your younger self your mantra now, do you think she would have been ready to hear it?
Speaker: That's interesting because I was quite anxious when I was younger, quite pessimistic. So I think she wouldn't have believed. She would have been like, I'm going to fail.
Speaker: Yeah, she wouldn't have believed it. And I think it's just taken me to get older and mature, to go through life experiences. I think sometimes you have to go through life.
Speaker: You have to go through tough times to really actually understand, you know what? It's not going to kill me. I can do it. I can do it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, sometimes there's definitely that, the resilience that comes of lived experience and knowing you can survive. Yeah, exactly. And the sun will, you know, continue to to rise. Also, I suppose there's this sense of practicality that,
Speaker: access to information was, you know, different at different life stages. And so is there something that you wish you had have read or seen or heard? You know, now if I think about, you know, you know TED Talks and inspiring books, there are things that, you know, were just not available, certainly when I was younger. But is there something that you wish? I wish I had... access to YouTube. So I literally live off YouTube. That's all I watch. And there's just so much inspiring content. If I had that in my younger days, I think I'd be complete somewhere completely different. Well, you could have just been watching makeup tutorials. so Yeah, it's true. I could have been.
Speaker: Who knows? And makeup tutorials. Who knows? But I've been so Googling Oprah's speech, motivational speech. But I also feel like there's so many inspiring content about how to manifest and how to start your own. There's so much positive content that just can come on your feed. And I just feel like if I had that when I was younger, and maybe I would have known. Because when I was younger, I didn't know that I had many options. So my parents were like doctor, lawyer or accountant. My career service was rubbish at university. But if I had access to like YouTube or even social media, you can discover that people are doing so many different jobs. So I wish I had that. If you can imagine,
Speaker: having access to all of these tools and chat GPT and Claude and co I mean, come on, i would, don't know why I'd be. Yeah. just would have been a rabbit warren. I don't think I would have gone out if there was Claude. I just would have been sitting at home coming up with ideas for things over and over again. What do you think it's important that young people know now?
Speaker: Like what's your advice when you speak to younger girls, especially? You know, my advice is just, you know, really think about what you enjoy and think about skills, but also think about the future skills. So I'm doing a lot of work now in like frontier tech and thinking about what does the future workplace look like? so always think about, OK, yes, you might have a passion, you've got skills, but also like what is the future? How can you prepare yourself for the future? Yeah, I think um my generation, we kind of just...
Speaker: we we actually, we were kind of the first maybe that thought about skills and passion, but we didn't think about the world changing and the world evolving, right? And so I think that's important for young people to understand How can you make sure that you've got transferable skills? Like calling them the human skills. So like being curious, being a good communicator, having compassion, you know, having courage. They're all important skills to have and think about building those skills out as a foundation. Because I think for so long, careers were quite singular, right? As in people stayed in careers for a long time. But now, as you said,
Speaker: Actually framing your career with through the lens of transferable skills is really important. I think so. um It certainly sounds like your sense of curiosity has been something that's driven you. yeah just getting curious. Both from a science perspective, but also creatively. Yeah, definitely. i think it's really important to be curious and just and try new things. Yeah. That's amazing.
Speaker: i want to talk a little bit about this podcast. It is produced by women for women. And to show our gratitude today for having this conversation, we know you know it takes time out of your day to to get here and and to chat. We've donated £250 on your behalf to support the charity you've chosen, which is Refuge. Refuge is the largest domestic abuse organisation in the yeah UK.
Speaker: And on any given day, their services support thousands of women and their children, helping them to overcome physical, emotional, financial and logistical impacts of abuse. Is there any special reason outside of just being a human with empathy that this organisation was your choice? Yeah, I mean, ah couple of things. So I used to sit on their board, on their subcommittee. Of course you did. Because you just popped that into your LinkedIn profile. Yes, on my LinkedIn and just saw firsthand the great work Refuge does, i mean, saving women's lives.
Speaker: but they need the support. So I thought anything, and I always you know try my best to now you know be an ambassador and just spread the word about what Refuge does and try and get support. But I also was a victim of, well, I'm a survivor of and domestic abuse myself. So I have a personal experience of that. And I was really young at the time, so I was like 16 to 18. And so I know, you know, what the challenges an influential time for girls, isn't it? It is such a crucial time. And so I just, you know, I really believe in what they're doing and they're doing great work, you know, making sure that women, girls and children um are sort of like, they can sort of support them and try and reduce harm.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I'm sorry you had to experience that. Thank Does refuge work with people at that age? Yeah. They do. So it's not necessarily, I guess, their core demographics. But they do. They do a lot of work for teenagers. And a lot of it is around the cyber crimes as well, coercion around, you know, in terms of that aspect of young people as well. But they do look after, they do have like interventions for teenagers. Because I know that's really challenging. There's a lot set up for sort of women and families. But young girls, it's such a, yeah, they're still developing really and finding their place in world. So, Yeah. Well, we're really glad to have made that contribution. Thank you so much for that. Thank you, Vanessa. It's been so wonderful to meet you in person. I've been such a big fan of your work. Thank you so much. And think your community is absolutely amazing. And I really love, I mean, I definitely think that you bite big too. So your mantra and my mantra are the same. Are the same, yeah. But this idea of failure not being an option and hearing today how that's impacted your choices is really amazing. So thank you for being Thank you. Thanks for having me. had a good time. You're welcome. Well, I'm your host, Amber Bonney, and until the next episode, may we all bite big and chew like hell.
Speaker: Thank you.
