Transcript
Speaker: Hello, before we get stuck into this episode of Bite Big, let me tell you a little bit about who the hell I am and why this content is important to me. My name's Amber Bonney and for the past 25 years, I've been reshaping iconic Australian and international brands, helping them stay relevant, get noticed and be remembered in the good kind of way.
Speaker: I'm a passionate feminist and committed to advocating for better representation of women in senior creative and marketing roles, which is why this podcast is proudly brought to you by my business, The Edison Agency.
Speaker: If your brand or organisation needs help aligning your vision to your reputation, then you can find us at www.edison.agency you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Let's get into it.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Season 4, Episode 4 of a special Bite Big Series, coming to you from the centre of London. I'm Amber Bonney, Brand Strategist and Agency CEO, and right now we're on the road in the yeah UK to meet the women building culture and challenging norms.
Speaker: This is the spotlight on the pulse of global creative leadership, and today I'm joined by someone who was the WACL president in their milestone 100th year. She's on the Institute of Practitioners in Advertising's Most Influentialist, Campaign's Top 3 Trailblazers, and I could go on. Hello and welcome, Rania Robinson. Hello.
Speaker: Hi. Thanks for having me. A little background on Rania. Rania is the CEO and partner of QuietStorm. They are a London-based, independent, B Corp certified, well done on that by the way, employee-owned agency. They've recently celebrated 30 years of not doing things the conventional way.
Speaker: One of their most famous campaigns, if you want to look it up, is Haribo's Kids Voices. That's been running now for 16 years in 22 countries and definitely proof of great impact of work.
Speaker: Even more impressive than that is QuietStorm's not-for-profit arm, a program running a directs with husband and founder of QuietStorm, Trevor Robinson. The Create Not Hate program is focused on bringing underrepresented young people into the creative industries and no doubt we'll talk more about that as we kick off into this episode.
Speaker: Rania came to the UK from Egypt at age three, started school without a word of English, left school at 16, worked in music, video distribution, shopper marketing, experiential, basically did everything a CEO probably shouldn't do on paper, but definitely should do in practice.
Speaker: She walked into quiet storm to help pitch and never left. Definitely a boss move there. So Rania, let's get under the skin of your personal mantra and talk about why we think you're a boss woman biting big.
Speaker: Now, the focus of the mantra is to really understand how it influences your day-to-day. My personal mantra is bite big and chew like hell. And over my life, that's gotten me into some very positive situations and some very negative situations. Your mantra is fiercely independent. Talk to us about where that came from.
Speaker: Yeah, I think there's nothing about anything that I do that's been conventional, if you like. Even just my coming into the industry in the way that I did, it wasn't the kind of classic university degree approach. Yeah, follow a narrative sequence. yeah Absolutely. And I think that's something that I followed throughout my whole career is this kind of taking an independent path, if you like, going about things differently.
Speaker: in a way that works and suits my values, my priorities, ah my belief system. And I think that's something that obviously running an independent agency is something you can maintain by maintaining that independence. So I think it's very much at the heart and the spirit of my whole journey, if you like, and how I see life and the world. And I think even when you come into a country...
Speaker: as an alien, if you like, or so as an immigrant, I think you either kind of desperately want to fit in or I think you embrace your difference. Yeah, leaning to the difference. Yeah, and you embrace your individuality and and and I think that's what I chose to do it and I've followed that.
Speaker: Has it ever cost you something that you wanted, that in sense of independence? Yeah. I think it depends how you look at it in a way. I think it is it's tough running an indie. You haven't got any backup. you haven't got anyone to lean on yeah this in tough times. You can't scale easily in the way that you could if you're part of something bigger. But I wouldn't say they were big sacrifices. I think sacrificing your values in your free way. So I wouldn't say they were sacrifices, but there's certainly limitations that come with taking an independent path.
Speaker: How do you feel about, there's this sense that fiercely independent women are often described as difficult. Is that something that you've experienced in your career and lifetime?
Speaker: Yeah, I think most people would probably say I'm not the easiest person, including my husband, who gets the joy of working with me and living with me. think, honestly, if you're not ruffling a few feathers, you're probably not doing things. Trying hard enough. And trying hard enough. I think It's impossible, isn't it? I think when you're in a leadership role as well, it's impossible to not make decisions or do things that aren't going to at times have creative discomfort and tension. And yeah, you just can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, can you? I know it sounds like a bit. Yeah. But that's the reality of kind of the nature of leadership, I think.
Speaker: Has there ever been an experience of that challenging the conventional norm that's been used against you in a negative way? I think when you're trying to do stuff that's different, that's original, that's genuinely distinctive, disruptive, and is going to genuinely have a transformative impact, I think you're always putting yourself in a position where people don't get it's uncomfortable, it's not easy to buy. and I think that's our job, obviously, to make it defensible and make it capable and all those things. But I think also you need a client or you need who's got some vision, who's got some...
Speaker: And it's not about, I think it's, I hate the idea of being brave as language or buying scary ideas because it's not about, it's not about being brave. It's about having an instinct and having confidence and conviction in your kind of belief and having a willingness to take a risk with a small R, if you like. Because any business, any entrepreneur, any any sort of idea, any anything that's ever made, ah had an impact in the world,
Speaker: has been is been new or original or unfamiliar. So I think there's always a bit of discomfort and risk that goes with that. So I think every single time we present an idea that is genuinely different, genuinely original, there's always a risk. Yeah. Does that become tiring? Because some of what you say resonates with me as in in independent practice well. And sometimes it can be heavily fatiguing to take people on a journey when we know that behaviour change can sometimes take a long time.
Speaker: I think what we've learned, honestly, and I think this is part of our independence, is a privilege that comes with our independence and ah and actually not a single-minded ambition to just scale and grow at all costs. I think for us, we get the privilege of being able to work with people who are like-minded, actually, and it becomes very self-selecting. People that like you back. Exactly. And have the same values and vision. And I think what we've learned is to not try...
Speaker: and work with people who don't get it yeah or don't have the same ambition. So I think that makes it a lot easier, actually. And I think what we found is once we got comfortable with that and actually was were really clear on the type of people that were wanted to work that we wanted to work with, it's become less tiring, actually. You probably become better at curating because sometimes, I believe,
Speaker: People say the right things to sound like they're on board. Yeah. But then your lived experience is actually quite different. But I suppose with experience, especially after 30 years in practice, the business would probably be much better now at curating those or getting the instinct, as you mentioned before, in, yeah, who are going to be our people and who are not. Exactly. And we just won't pitch for things where we don't think there's shared ambition and shared values. Yeah, shared values.
Speaker: Let's talk about visibility as a leadership strategy. So being one of the few women of colour in senior creative agency leadership in the yeah uk what did you have to build that didn't exist before and how long did that take?
Speaker: You definitely have to build a thick skin, honestly, because I think you've got to just get used to being often different, like visibly different. Yeah, to the left. To the left, comfortable with being in rooms where you don't see people like yourself. Yes.
Speaker: I think just getting comfortable with yourself, it's back to that idea of not... trying to conform, actually really embracing your difference yeah and seeing how that's ah an advantage actually in what you do. and what you do and how you do it And how you do it. And I think that's what I've really learned. I've learned that when you had to assimilate and you've had to find ways to connect with people that are not the classic ways, in if you're not speaking the language and can't communicate at sort of at a basic level, I think what you learn are really intuitive, insightful skills around reading between the lines, body language, how do I find a way to connect that's on a more emotional level and things like that. and they're the really important skills in what we do. and what you're doing So I think that's what I've learned to build is those skills that kind of make my difference yeah a value add.
Speaker: And I imagine coming here at such a young age, You probably had some of those foundations already, right? Yeah, you just do them, you learn them. It just becomes common. It becomes an instinctive developed skill, if you like, that that people that just but other people maybe might not have to have fine-tuned in the same way. You've spoken a lot about the subliminal message that absence sends, that if representation isn't modelled, you start to believe that you don't belong.
Speaker: When did you start to feel like you did belong or did it never really matter? You just continued to forge a path? I think I just learned. I think when you've had to learn from such a young age how to just tough it out and just get through it, I think I'd learned the skills by the time I'd got into into the career the career. I'd become so thick-skinned about it and resilient. It's resilience, really. And don't get me wrong, it's not you do feel the discomfort. it doesn't ever leave you. And certainly when you...
Speaker: are stretching out of your comfort zone and you're taking that next leap and you're getting into rooms that you weren't in before. Every time you do that, you feel all those insecurities and discomforts again, yeah but you tough it out because you've had to and you've done it from a young age. So I think they're good skills. Again, they're the sort of the qualities that you develop having had a less conventional kind of Life experience. Life experience. Yeah. yeah And then when once you do get into a leadership position where you can actually influence, I've used that to help bring more people like me in the room. Yeah. and That's where the visibility becomes and that's critical, right? Other people seeing themselves in you. Absolutely. And I think as part of my time at Wackle, that was something that the club was really focused on. And was it was being led by a number of women, not just me. But that was something that is the most rewarding bit about it is that actually – Once you hit those the positions in your company, in the industry, in in organisations like WACL, which is all about bri creating the the next leaders of our industry, you can actually start effecting change. yeah And for me, that's when it got really interesting and valuable. I wanted to ask about WACL because in their centenary, which is when you were president,
Speaker: It could have just been a straightforward celebration, but you chose that opportunity to make it a mission, parity at CEO level. Talk to us about what that ambition was and yeah and how far did you get in that process in terms of your goal?
Speaker: I think what we were trying to do was accelerate the change, the gender a parity, and we were looking at the numbers, the rate we were going and how far away we were from driving that change. And we were thinking, like, where can we have the most impact And not everyone wants to be a CEO and that's absolutely fine. i think that's a really important point to make. It's not for everybody and nor should it be.
Speaker: But what we felt was it's probably the most influential role in an organisation. And actually, if we can get more women in those positions, then we can shape the change and has cascade it down. And actually, we do see that influence can happen bottom up as well, actually, which is amazing. that I think that's been a big change in society and in in organisations also. now more than ever, but actually CEOs can shape the business agenda much more quickly and and much more effectively. So that that just felt like a good opportunity to drive the change quickly. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, obviously you're proud of those achievements, but is that something that they have continued Oh, yeah, absolutely. The mission is years and years of ongoing, consistent effort. And the guys are continuing that ambition. And we're seeing positive shifts in the industry, actually. The numbers are moving in the right direction for women in leadership roles, particularly in the kind of more agency world. Maybe not so much in the FTSE 100, I think. I'd have to check that. The last set of data, there's been lot of shifts recently, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you know the stats off top of your head, but I know in Australia certainly that it's something like 66% of, say, design or advertising graduates are women. But when it comes to leadership, it's under 25%. Is it something... We see a huge drop off, but actually we're seeing much higher numbers of female leaders in the world, particularly in agencies, both media and creative agencies. Yeah. I think we might be, I should know the stats. Getting to parity. But I think we are getting to parity, but not so much when you look at the wider business world. And certainly they'll be in certain sectors where it's falling short. Yeah, not so much. You've also been pretty honest about what advocacy takes from you. I suppose the personal impact of not being to everything at once. And that resonates with me as well because was talking recently about International Women's Day and how once a year... actually can be quite stressful because you're reflecting on potentially the progress that hasn't moved fast enough. Talk to me about are there things that you've just had to let go and how do you reckon with that?
Speaker: Yeah, I think when you run a small agency, You're very integral to the business. And the time I spent doing Wackle was incredibly rewarding enriching on a personal level. But I would say it definitely impacted my ability to run the business with the same single-minded focus. And it certainly took its toll personally because it just does because it's all-consuming. It's consuming. And obviously we were also doing Create Not Hate alongside that. We were doing a lot of stuff. That's lot happening. And I did have to make some decisions after the WACL tenure, which is actually technically a three-year tenure, of which two of those were pretty full on. I think third year, you can't sort of… You're handing over. You're starting to recruit. You're handing over. And obviously, you've got incredible support network in the women and the exec and all the other women in the clubs. But it did take its toll. So there's still things I do I still support the club. I recently did event in Edinburgh, a fantastic event that they do every year, the Talent Festival. They do it across a number of cities in the UK. So I supported that. And obviously we're doing something at the moment with Create Not Hate and our kind of more social purpose agenda. But we've just been much more selective about it so we can focus on the business. And it's tough. It's tough running an indie. It's very competitive. Yeah, certainly. I'm not sure about your experience, but my understanding of the climate in the UK feels quite similar to Australia. And it's been a tough sort of five years, but even post-COVID, probably even tougher. Certainly that's been experience the last... 18 months just feels like a roller coaster that hasn't stopped. Is that your experience? That's exactly right. And I think the big shift that we've seen is just how competitive it is. It's always been competitive, but it's increasingly competitive because there's just less around and there's bigger agencies going for smaller things. And so we're pitching up against some really big agencies. I would say that's been one of the biggest experiences for us in Australia. Obviously a very small market in Australia, but
Speaker: where the bigger agencies, they're starting to collapse or coming under group ownership. Yeah. But they're diversifying out of what their typical lanes were. Yeah, totally. And moving into, and of course they can scale and put a 30-person team in. Absolutely. Without much of a fuss. And so there's a lot of cannibalisation of the smaller agencies. Is that the experience here? Yeah, we're up against bigger indies and we're up against big networking. I mean, we could be we could end up on a pitch list against anyone, but we arere we're often the smallest agency on a pitch list. yeah he often so And we've we've got good pitch conversion rate. We win more than we lose. But it's hard. yeah yeah It's hard one. And I think you've got you've got to go all out.
Speaker: So you just can't afford to be distracted. it Yeah, so back to protecting that sense of energy. It is. Is even running an indie agency. in some ways is philanthropic back to the industry because you are supporting the virtues of independence. yeah And so that's where the energy, I imagine, needs to be yeah filtered. And plus, if you're running a not-for-profit as well, yeah you've got yeah yeah lots of eggs in the butt. Yeah, but it makes you very selective and it makes you very fine-tuned, which is what back to that point. point about only working with people that we think we've got a shared ambition with and we've got a genuine sort of shared vision. So because you just, you don't want to be putting all that energy into something that's never really going to gel.
Speaker: Yeah. Sometimes when you're working with new clients, the energy it takes to onboard and get to know each other is quite exhausting. So you really need, when you can convert a pitch, you You really need to land and expand that strategy so that you're not having to do that over and over yeah again because it can be yeah quite exhausting, yeah which anyone who runs an indie knows that. I want to talk a little bit about brand because after 30 years of working in this industry, i want to understand what do you think brand and marketers or brand owners are getting wrong in this industry?
Speaker: I think there's principles around what makes a piece of advertising resonate and be effective that I think haven't changed. Obviously, the route to the consumer has changed. Brand behaviors, sorry, consumer behavior has changed. The market context has completely changed. the Level of competition and competitiveness and pricing. And there's so many things that ah that have changed environmentally, but actually...
Speaker: The things that make us human. The basic principles. The basic principles, like things that make us human, the things that move us, the make things that drive deep emotional connection, those things haven't changed anywhere near as much as we yeah maybe would like channels they've consumed have changed. but And I think sometimes we get more excited by shiny things and channels and what's changed versus the things that haven't changed. And I also think in times of challenge and the risk aversion or the desire for,
Speaker: safety, drive, bad choices, i think. And I think sometimes the choices, we want to almost form create a formula around what a good piece of communication looks like. And sometimes that formula loses sight of those the magic. The fundamental. The real, yeah and the magic and the stuff that... The magic aren't defined. no and I think we want it to be. we want to be tick a tickcker box and say, exactly one, two, three, this is what we're doing. And I think whilst there are some core principles that are right you need to make sure that you've got your branding strong and you've got your brand assets and you've got something that's emotional. think it's not a sort of designing by numbers and, okay, let's do all the kind of 101s of yeah best marketing but and then we're going to end up with a great ad. Because what you end up with is just loads of ads that are using all the same mechanics and same devices and same and they just all feel the same. It's homes by Canva. Exactly. So I think it's it's remembering the principles that
Speaker: but not letting them constrain you letting them get in the way of genuinely original, surprising, thought-provoking work, which might not ever get in the world if you're following regimented process. So I think that's the kind of the duality of it is not losing sight of those core principles, but not letting them strangle all the Yeah, would you say, because I've read a few things you've spoken about humour, distinction or distinctiveness and recognisable assets. matter more now than ever but brands keep abandoning them what do you think's driving that abandonment you think it is just that shiny we're going to try new things yeah or I'm not even sure I'm not even sure that they're necessarily completely abandoning them I think they may be taking them quite literally sometimes if you look at kids voices like a recipe it's just a b c d and then we're done Yeah. Or it's just looking at it in a very one-dimensional kind of way. If you look at something like Kids Voices, for example, that kind of fluent device, if were to look at System 1 principles, is the fact that adults speak like children. It's not necessarily a kind of visual asset or a sonic device. Haribo has got a sonic device that had it before. Right. It's a kind of unconventional way of looking at a consistent asset. There's an idea behind it. There's a thought behind it. There's a human insight. There's a universal truth. It's beautifully executed. It's been produced in a way that's authentic because it's unscripted. There's so many aspects to that. multidimensional. It's multidimensional. There's so many layers to that piece of work that makes it work. It's not just because it's got a consistent device. Whereas people will go, well, we've got consistent device job done. We're done. And it's no, where's the idea? Where's the human insight? There's layers and layers to it. And I think we're taking the principles at a very superficial Yeah, the magic's gone. magic's gone, yeah. I mean, yeah, certainly that is our experience also a sense. And we do a lot of education with clients around taking the principles but then making sure you're using them in an interesting and engaging way that's connecting to the why as opposed to sort of circa 1980s corporate, we're just going to stamp everything. Yeah.
Speaker: And that sort of autocratic nature of the way a cow is branded becomes quite unemotional and unexciting. And when brands do that in that cookie-cutter sort of people disengage and they actually stop seeing it. Oh, totally. Or we're going to use a celebrity, but there's no idea. It's got nothing to do with the brand. We secured the celebrity and that's the idea. or we're going to use a character or we're going to...
Speaker: use a popular track or you can't that doesn't that's not you can't do that in the absence of a great idea the best idea they'll have an idea that's brought to life and and maybe exaggerated or amplified in different ways through the use of a celebrity not the idea isn't the celebrity so yeah I think that it's making sure you're not taking the principles oh Yeah, very superficial level. Yeah. You've spoken about this sense of reactive decision making in marketing where brands have changed their assets. There's been some online outrage, which of course there's online outrage about literally everything. And then they've spent millions in reversing that.
Speaker: Do you think that talks to this sense of short term focus or immediacy? Have you had experience in that area? Yeah, we've had definitely had an experience of a loud minority online who are on the beach work, for example, got a huge amount of negative sort of backlash. Chatter. Yeah, on quite quickly. Quite quickly. And it's been unbelievably successful. And the point is it it's designed to be polarising. That's the intent. That is the intent because we're talking to a very large majority actually of people that – resonate with the ad and are actually connect with this idea of what real everyday British people want to experience on holiday and how they they see their holidays. The fact that you've got a kind of noisy minority who, you know, can be quite offensive and quite rude about the ad is you've got to hold your nerve, really. And we've got brilliant client we've worked with her over many years, and she's a brilliant example
Speaker: of working with the right kind of person with the shared values and we've had many successes with working with her over the years and it's not allowing every little that would make some clients incredibly nervous it would make them feel very uncomfortable that they wouldn't like the idea of any negativity at which point you end up playing it very safe and actually not having the impact you know the endurance just quite vanilla yeah yeah because as you said when you're doing work that might be but even if it's not intended to be controversial, but anything that might be thought-provoking or challenging is not going to be everyone's cup of tea. no And so, yeah, i imagine there are lots of frustrated agencies out there where they have clients that potentially the legal team have come in, swooped in and said, no, we're pulling it. yeah And it's death by a thousand cuts as well. It's what happens even before it gets out in the world as well. yeah That's what happens sometimes when it's been out. and they'll I think you obviously do need to be sensitive to the kind of social environment that we are in now. But that's different. to This ad is just showing...
Speaker: A normal family having a great time on holiday. or Yes, we're playing a Christmas track outside of Christmas, which could be irritating for some, but it's the reactions were disproportionate yeah to the ad. It's not like it was an offensive ad in in any way.
Speaker: It's a reflection of the social issues that we have now with the keyboard warriors jumping on and having something to say about absolutely everything yeah and creating waves. I want to talk a little bit about this sentiment of the differentiation myth.
Speaker: I'm not sure if you're familiar with the work of Professor Jenny Romanek. She's an Australian professor. She wrote a book called Building Distinctive Brand Assets. And I've read it a few instances where you've talked about this misconception that that brands need to be wildly different versus just need to be themselves with a level of consistency. And that doesn't necessarily mean to be wildly different in their category, but they just need to have a point of view yeah and stay consistent. Is this something that you have to talk with your clients about often? is Do you think it's understood in your industry? Well, we do talk about finding the quiet in the noise, which is
Speaker: what's everyone else doing and how do you do things differently? So I think, but it's not about being different for different sake. it's's It's just about pulling out something, a consumer truth or a product truth or a category truth that just other people are overlooking. So if you look at even on the beach,
Speaker: Most travel ads, certainly at time that we launched the ad, were showing this perfect family, this perfect holiday, whereas we were just showing the reality the reality of what the real so British traveller wants to get from their holiday. So it was a subtle, but it was very anchored in truth for the brand as well. And actually we were playing to a really strong insight, which was actually hence why the Christmas song about being the most wonderful time of the year was that actually the insight we found was actually it's not Christmas, it's the literally the most, like, best week of the year for them, it's their holidays. So it it came from a real un truth. yeah Exactly. So I think it's...
Speaker: We definitely do try and find the truth that maybe nobody else is focusing on or going against the kind of category norms and trying to look at this. But it's that doesn't mean just being different for the sake of being different. it's more in the nuance. It's the nuance, yeah.
Speaker: What do you think after 30 years in this industry, what do you think that brand owners are still getting wrong? Do you think they're getting smarter or do you think we're going backwards? Yeah.
Speaker: Like I was saying, there's a kind of risk aversion. Like testing is very useful. I'm not, you know, I'm not anti-testing. I think it's useful to help build out and to help refine. But I think what it can do is destroy originality. Great ideas. It can. And I think when you're testing within an inch of your life... Or you're not using testing in the right way. I think we've worked with clients that have tested but gone, you know what, it's useful but i'm going to trust my instinct on this. and's Because often original ideas don't test particularly well. Anything that feels a bit different. People are only using their base understanding. Familiarity. Of what they know. It's the old example of when Steve Jobs launched the the ipadpod iPod. iPod. I can't remember it so long ago. In that iconic shape. yeah's If that was research tested, oh nobody would have said, yes, we want a portable music device that we're going to carry around. It's just out of people's realm of extinction. So that's where I suppose to your point around the magic, yeah you can't test and validate the magic. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's like there's got to be room for instinct. When I talk about instinct, it's instinct coming from years and years of experience. And I think that is instinctive,
Speaker: decision-making, marketers who've got instinctive, compet confident in their instincts. I think that that is becoming rarer, sadly. think we have a disproportionate number of clients who are like that. was again it's But I think just a lot yeah when it's things are overly intellectualised and overly tested and overly formulated and overly tested, that's where sometimes instinct gets quietened doubt gets quietened down. And that that's what is often where the really game-changing thing Game-changing ideas and work. feel like that starts at education level but also is something that is mentored through, say, a marketer's career. And when often our experience, especially marketers working in big organisations, they've now got less money, more channels... less resources, yeah less mentoring. There's like a whole layer of management gone. And so i feel like the core challenge is that they don't actually have the space. Yeah, absolutely. And then they, not only do they not have the space, they don't have those instincts modelled above them. So people saying, ah I trust you and modelling that they trust that instinct. yeah And then
Speaker: So then the challenge it is, I think, as an agency is you then need to convince them to trust your instinct. But then with so many layers of reason, it becomes really complicated. And they've got to justify it internally. Yeah. They've got all the stage gates to take it through and the legal teams. and Yeah. So it's tough being a marketer in yeah this environment. So it's even even the most instinctive marketer will have the challenge with getting really game-changing work out there. Yeah. and there's certainly, there are certainly ah good percentage marketers that still doing that, but it's becoming fewer and fewer, I would argue. would imagine. yeah Yeah. I do feel like the marketing role, like what it's sold to you if you read a university course about marketing, it sounds so much more exciting than the actual job for marketers. Every client that I've talked to said, you know, this presentation that we're in is the funnest part of my week. And 80 to 90% of the rest of the week is manufacturing, capex discussions, logistics. It's, yeah, can be quite unsexy in that sense, which I don't think, I don't think helps. Let's talk about creativity and consensus because you've spoken a lot about consensus culture being one of the greatest threats to creativity. Can you talk about where that sense comes from and what your experience is and what you're observing in the industry? Yeah, and I think it's back to this sort of death by a thousand cuts, isn't it? The more people that are involved, the more opinions, the more perspectives, the more sort of you just see an idea get watered down. And I think it can do the opposite as well. to We work very collaboratively in a process with our clients and we work collaboratively internally because the different perspectives help you stress test and make sure that you're not getting swept away with something that hasn't got kind of legs legs and isn't anchored and all those things. So I'm not anti kind of collaboration, which I think is different to consensus. yeah Because I think you can collaborate. Everyone can have a perspective on it. You can debate. You can knock things around. Yeah, you're listening. to you can listen yeah But ultimately somebody has to make a decision. I think what we find is where does that decision sit? Is it strategic decision? Is it a creative excellence decision? Is it a
Speaker: background, brand understanding decision? is it ah And I think that's where, at its best, where you've got a team of people and there's a real clarity on where the decision sits, if you like. I think that can escalate rather than destroy an idea. yeah But when you're trying to keep everybody happy in a way that is not working to the same ambition, if you like, I think if there's a shared ambition... then it can work brilliantly. But if it's just about comfort and safety, and I think that that's where it goes horribly wrong because you're just minimizing. It waters it down. becomes more vanilla. Yeah, absolutely. Has there been a decision you've had to make without naming clients or brands recently where you've had to make a call that sort of didn't feel intuitive or felt like it was being watered down?
Speaker: I think, to be honest with you, I think there's a reality that you have to do that to an extent. Across every project. Across most things because there's there's lots of considerations and understandable ones as well, to be honest with you. But that is the nature we were speaking earlier about.
Speaker: the commerce of business, especially as an independent. exactly Not everything is beautiful and pure in the way that you maybe had intended it to begin with, but it is in some ways the nature of yeah the beast and the like process. Definitely. But I would say that for the majority, almost for the whole, I would say that we always produce work that we're proud of because we've got the right kind of clients who've got the right ambition that work with us in a collaborative way that respect us and and actually trust us because we that most of our relationships are longstanding. Of course, the early relationships, you build that trust over time. But I would say for the most part, we're not putting anything out in the world that we're not proud of, you actually. And again, that comes back with the independence and being choiceful in who you work with and choiceful in that you get that. Yeah, get you're curating that from the top. You are. And I would say there's I don't think there's anything really that I would feel really that I'm not proud of. Not uncomfortable. Yeah.
Speaker: Have you ever had to i use the term, retire a client, but say there's been a change of leadership. I don't know if you've had this experience, but change of leadership in the organisation. And as we spoke before, sometimes leaders can become quite toxic to a yeah culture yeah as it filters down. Have you ever had an experience where you've had to say goodbye gently to to a client? ah did Or even a single project?
Speaker: I think there will be. There'll definitely be projects we've walked away from. and I think there will be clients we've walked away from at certain points as well. When I say walk away, I think we we would always work really hard to retain a client. They're hard one. yeah we respect them. We do respect them. So i don't think there's been anyone that we've worked with. Again, I think we're quite lucky because we attract a certain type of client. yeah They're usually really respectful. But what we have seen is usually with a change of leadership, there's often ah a review of agency relationships anyway. And then you become the incumbent and then then you yeah fight even harder. Yeah. And I think in that's where we are less likely to repitch for something. Yes. And I think the choice more... In that situation, that would be more choiceful strategy to say, exactly we're going to let this go. We're going to let it go. And I think that's probably more where...
Speaker: we're much, much more considered as to whether we would want to re-pitch for something. Because again, it's a bit like the whole sort of, you want to really think about where you put your energy. and I think we've certainly walked away from re-pitching situations or rejigging the roster or kind of consolidation things where price driven. We've definitely walked away from situations where we thought they're buying on price. They're not buying on value. yeah And that's definitely something we wouldn't participate in because,
Speaker: It's just there's going to be someone who'll be cheaper and bigger. There's just no point. When that's part of the strategy, it's a race to the bottom. What's the point? Exactly. And they don't need an agency like us. No. So I think, well, in those situations, I'm trying to think if we've ever actively resigned somebody we've been working directly we would always work hard to get the relationship in a good place. Yeah, with stubborn conviction. Yeah, exactly. I want to talk a little bit about quiet storms, values and principles that you've spoken to. So said no to network group, no to private equity and yes to giving the business to the people. Talk to me about that process and how long did that take? Because it's quite unusual be. It is. think we, obviously you've built a business. In Trev's case, it was 30 years, like 30 years of the agency. This was five or six years ago. You want to release some value out of the business. You work really hard. You make a lot of sacrifices. You do want to release the value. obviously it's something every founder will think about at some point.
Speaker: We went into a partnership, a strategic partnership ownership with an independent agency prior to the employee ownership. I think, oh gosh, that would have been 13, 14 years ago. And that was something that we felt comfortable with. There was a growth opportunity. It a strategic partnership opportunity where we saw... an opportunity for incremental growth through the production part of our business. Things didn't quite materialise the way that we'd imagined, which often happens in an acquisition deal a partnership deal. And so when they got an opportunity to be acquired by a global network of which they were talking to us to be part of that deal, that just felt like a really good opportunity for us to walk away and go back and be independent. And obviously years after that, we then looked at going back to market. And I think We'd learnt from that experience. And what became really apparent for Trevor and I was that we just weren't willing to give up kind of control. Integrity, yeah. And that control is the integrity. Because once you give up control, it's not about you anymore. It's not about your values. And that's when we found out about the employee ownership. I didn't really even know it existed at the time. And I was having a conversation with somebody in the industry and they were saying that they'd just gone through an EOT. And was like, good. Didn't know that even So it just made perfect sense. that a quick Google EOT structure? Yeah. Call the accountant. Yeah, we just chatted to some people about it. And it was, what we loved about it was you retain ownership. And you're creating a legacy. You're creating a kind of ownership model that means you can also step back. over time. Which of course after say 30 years you do. you need to think about it don't you and I think what you're doing is you're building a business that can naturally have succession tied into it where the people who've been building the business can kind of continue to benefit and see their efforts rewarded as well. a much more equitable share of profit and everyone benefits whilst also showing that kind of appreciation for the years of sacrifice and the years of building that you do as founders that should be rewarded. Should be rewarded. Absolutely.
Speaker: And what it means is things, very little changes. We were a business that was always, the the ownership structure is about more transparency, more consultation, more equitable share, all things that we were doing anyway anyway. So it just felt, it's just become more formalised and there's just a bit more within the governance structure. and Yeah. And was that led by the B Corp certification? Yeah.
Speaker: Well, the B Corp came later, actually. The B Corp came later. Because, again, the B Corp just felt we're doing all this stuff anyway. We might as well have a badge for it. It would be lovely to have some public recognition for it. Everything just felt natural and right for what we were doing. And it's meant that we don't have to compromise on our values and we're not trying to answer to...
Speaker: shareholders that are not in any way experiencing or living yeah the kind of the agency principles and values. And it's very easy to look at a piece of paper and spreadsheets and have a perspective. Forget about the human. Forget about the human and yeah yeah and the kind of lived experience of the people that are there. And yeah, it just felt right. Which I think in today's culture, it feels like that would be a stronger premise for recruiting new people to the business. Looking human first. Yeah, our retention rate is definitely way above any sort of industry norms. I think we have really high levels of retention and it does attract people as well because we're regularly recognised as of the best places to work in. And yeah, we've got a sort of positive reputation in terms of how we're values and again, it attracts the right kind of talent. Which then, the right type of clients, the right type of talent, it's a community, yeah. Yeah, and you've got people who really invested. that's it. We're a service business, aren't we? We're only as good as the people that are in our business. It's important that they're happy and that they feel motivated. They feel rewarded and recognised. So yeah, to us it just made sense.
Speaker: Do you look back now at that time thinking about acquisition and just sigh of relief? Thank God, yeah. We came close. We came very close to, and that's what drove it, because Trevor and I just sat down were like, do you really want to do this? And I'm like, he said no. And was like, I don't either. but So it just became very clear. It was a gut feel again. It was just a gut feel. This was perfect. to Like I said, it was it just it was it just made absolute sense. And no regrets. Five, six years in absolutely the right decision.
Speaker: I want to ask a question around the younger version of yourself. What do you think, a say, a 16-year-old Rania would want to hear now that she didn't hear then?
Speaker: 16-year-old, just honestly, just believing in yourself. I think it's one of the most important things in living. You can imagine in a way you've got to have that belief. I think as women, as certainly as a woman of colour, I think it's really easy to not have that level of kind of innate confidence and self-belief that often comes with your... you know with with With the experience. with it So with you yeah when you look back reflecting now, of course, you've got the experience, yeah but it's 8 and 10 and 12 and 14 and 16. Yeah. No, it is. It is. I think when you feel, yeah, when you're not seeing people around you that law successful people look like you, it's very easy to not believe that you can have that level of success. And I think you have to just believe that. have like real conviction in yourself and belief in yourself. And I think it's wavered in my life over the years at various times, but I think maintaining that level of self-belief I think has been simplest. What's your advice to women in this industry who don't feel like they have that self-belief or don't feel like they belong? Is there something that you share with people or or tell people regularly that seems to cut through?
Speaker: Yeah, I think the thing that I look for and I look to, and I have these conversations with my daughter, it's it's really interesting to see. I look to the evidence. When I'm feeling a little bit insecure, and you do, you still do. You jump back onto LinkedIn. Look at these amazing lists of things that I've done. I am a boss woman. Hopefully this podcast will be one of those. Oh, thank you. Yes, am a boss woman. it's very easy to forget. And I think particularly when you're pushing yourself you're stepping out of your comfort zone, we do need to be reminded sometimes of like tangible evidence of yeah competence, yeah if you like. And i think I think that's something that is a very sort of practical way of looking at reminding yourself of how capable you are. as to The contribution. Yeah, to look at that. Yeah. I would just what i say to my daughter is I can list to a ton of things that i can put in front of her as kind of evidence of her sort of. Yeah, I like the practicality of Yeah, I think you need something quite practical. I think it's just to say someone who just got to believe or self-affirmation. It just feels a bit. Non-tangible. To me, it feels a bit non-tangible. I think there's always tangible evidence that you can rationally look at and go. And I know it's ah it's very emotional. like That kind of insecurity can be very emotional. So it's very rational. But I think packing, wrapping it in some real rational reasons to believe. Yeah, I like that. I think it is just, yeah. If it was a brand on a page, it's have a list. Yeah. I'm this. i
Speaker: Yeah. I do think you've just reminded me of something I was talking to my niece about who's in her 20s and I was explaining that back in the day there was no sort of LinkedIn. You just had a word filed resume or a Quark Express or InDesign resume or something. And nowadays I highly suggest to people that they use, whether it's LinkedIn or something else, but they actually continually update yeah their profile, as in whether it's a word that's private or whether it's public, With every single thing that they are doing because I often feel like women do more, obviously, than is required of them often. Yeah. And it's not documented. absolutely. all of these opportunities get missed, even if it's pro bono or not-for-profit or it's an initiative within their organisation that wasn't part of their resume. Yeah.
Speaker: documenting all of that contribution because A, it speaks to leadership, ingenuity, but also that proof point, as you mentioned, that looking back and saying, oh yeah, I did help run a program for X or I did help facilitate a conversation between this. But if it's not documented, you forget it And we also take them for granted. yeah it take so many things that we do as women for granted that it's just not an accomplishment. It's just a Getting up every day doing stuff. Yeah, we're just doing it. And I think if you can't find that evidence yourself, talk people close to you that work with you and they will give you whole long list.
Speaker: We do miss things. We miss things that we just think are just, that's just doing your job, isn't it? That's just doing it. And actually it's, yeah. Yeah, I'd highly recommend, i even say to people sometimes, just start a notes in your phone. Yeah. It's shit I've achieved. Yeah, absolutely's absolutely. Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker: Rania, I'm so grateful that you came in today and it's been such a pleasure meeting you for you to show us your version of Biting Big and your personal mantra of being fiercely independent and how that's shaped your choices going forward. This podcast is produced and made by women. Very proud of that and show our gratitude. We're donating $250. to your chosen charity, which is Create Not Hate, of which you are the co-founder, of course. Talk to us about why this organisation is so important to you and what you want people to take away about what it does. So Trevor launched it actually in 2007 prior to my involvement And it was basically, it was in response to ah a stabbing that happened at his old school back in 2007. And he felt very, really compelled to kind of have an impact and in in terms of the environment that he'd grown up grown up with in his community, where he'd grown up, where, you know, he'd seen so many brilliantly talented young people that didn't know about the industry.
Speaker: And also probably didn't feel like it was an industry for them. weren't modelled. They weren't modelled. He's still quite unusual really even to see people like Trevon in the position that he's in this industry. It's improving loads but in a senior leadership position. And he's obviously had a great career in advertising. It served him well. And he wanted to open that up to these young people where he grew up. And so he went into the school. He ran a project which was basically how do we tackle gun and knife crime? Best idea, we'll get it made and we'll involve the community in the making of acting in every aspect of full behind the scenes so that's what he did and they created a film amazing film called Mother's Tear and it had a huge crew of people from the school even made sort of promotional posters they acted in everything every part of the process is that available on YouTube if we've It is, yeah, it will be. And the idea was to give the young people exposure to the industry, give them some work experience, showcase the talent to the industry. And the idea at the time was that he was hoping that other people would pick up the projects and do projects of their own and bring some of these young people into industry. But it was way ahead of its time. The industry just wasn't there. They just weren't ready for it. And so it never really gained huge momentum outside of the first year of, I think there was a couple of years, which we were funding as an agency.
Speaker: So obviously when the George Floyd murder happened, it felt like an opportunity to relaunch it and tackle the issues around racism. So we relaunched it together and turned it into a not-for-profit community interest company. And actually there was a lot more momentum there. a lot more engagement from the industry. was the time.
Speaker: It was the right time. And we ran quite a few programs with it. We tackled things like mental health. We did programs around My Britain with people Waitrose and John Lewis. yeah And we did some work with Google and all sorts of things, not through Crite Not Hate, but through yeah through the agency. So it it gained the momentum that we were hoping. And what we were really trying to do was just Bring this talent into the industry and and it's been much more successful in terms of actually doing that and delivering on that and reaching the scale and level of engagement involvement that we were hoping it would.
Speaker: So, yes, so it's really become ah more of a co-creation platform now. And whether it's tackling social issues that hold these young people back or whether it's unlocking business opportunity through yeah through fresh thinking and new ideas and access to young talent. So, yes, so it's now had had that kind of the success that we were hoping it would have had. Well, congratulations to both of you. That's an incredible.
Speaker: incredible achievement thank you so much I'm so grateful for your time and to have met you and talked about how you become fiercely independent and I'm sure there's lots of things in this session that people are going to take away so thank you so much for your time I'm your host Amber Bonny and until next episode I hope you bite big and chew like hell thank you thank you
