Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
E086: Sabrina Cain
1.5k Plays4 years ago
For years, Kimberly Cain has been seeking closure for her sister Sabrina’s murder in 1974. Interestingly, since the discovery of Sabrina’s body, all eyes turned toward one perpetrator; unfortunately, all of the evidence against him was circumstantial. Between questioned testimonies, missing guns, local rumors, and missed opportunities in the investigaton, will we ever know the truth?
Please consider joining Kimberly’s Facebook group: #JusticeForSabrina
If you would like to start your OWN podcast on Buzzsprout, please consider using our promo code so you can earn a $20 gift card after your second month on a paid plan:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/?referrer_id=709643
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Podcasting and Buzzsprout
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own. Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are,
00:00:20
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful
00:00:42
Speaker
and getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends and from where listeners hail. Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So what are you waiting for?
00:01:02
Speaker
Fulfill that dream of yours and start today. If you use our Coffee & Cases referral code, 709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes, not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world.
00:01:30
Speaker
Now it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Kimberly Kane Reflects on Sister Sabrina's Legacy
00:01:35
Speaker
For each one of us it's different. That thing that reminds us of the loved one now missing from our lives. For some it's an item. For me it is at least. Every time I go to bake something I open the drawer
00:01:49
Speaker
And I see my grandma's rolling pin. It's the one we used when I would stay the night and she would bake homemade sugar cookies. It's the one I still use to roll out cookies with my daughter. For others, it's a card, a letter, a written message that has survived the person who wrote it. And it's often not just the message that's important. It's the curve of the letters.
00:02:15
Speaker
the slant to the words, the image it conjures up of the person we miss with all of our hearts leaning low, concentrating, and writing that very message on the page. It makes them alive again for us in that moment. That's the case for Kimberly Kane. When she was shown a yearbook in which her sister had written, the experience was overwhelming.
00:02:40
Speaker
This book was one her sister held. She tightly gripped a pen to write the message, perhaps smiling brightly as she did so. There was an image in Kimberly's mind behind it, and a happy image. It was likely powerful because it's the moments of joy that she wants her sister to stay in within her mind, and not the injustice that happened later.
00:03:07
Speaker
She wants to remember, and for others to as well, that her sister was a person who deserves justice. Whether that justice can be achieved all these years later is something that remains to be seen. But at the very least, Kimberly needs to know that the burden of memory and of sharing the story is not hers alone to bear. This is the story of Sabrina Kane.
Introduction to 'Coffee and Cases' Podcast
00:04:10
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:04:19
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page.
00:04:35
Speaker
Coffee and cases podcast and to follow us on instagram at coffee cases podcast and on tiktok at coffee and cases podcast Because as these families know conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness Helping to keep their memories alive.
Interview with Kimberly Kane on Sabrina's Backstory
00:04:53
Speaker
So sit back sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week
00:04:58
Speaker
Maggie, for this week's episode, as part of my preparation, I had the pleasure of speaking with Kimberly Kane, Sabrina's sister.
00:05:09
Speaker
That's awesome. Yes. And we love when we're able to speak with individuals who are family members or friends or have information about the cases that we cover. And with Kimberly, it was just such a pleasure to speak to her. And she was able to give me so many resources and pieces of information in order to more fully tell Sabrina's story.
00:05:37
Speaker
including a little bit of the backstory. Oh, good. But since I feel like sometimes that part's missing for us, right? Like we know about what happened maybe like a couple days leading up to accidents or incidents, but we don't really know like who they were in the past. So that's good to know. Yeah, because yeah, the newspaper articles, they cover the details, the data, but they don't convey the person. Yeah.
00:06:04
Speaker
So I'm gonna be relaying and relying on that information from Kimberly, as well as sheriff's reports and interviews for the information that I'm gonna provide in this week's episode.
Sabrina's Family Dynamics and Custody
00:06:18
Speaker
So Kimberly and Sabrina have the same father, but different mothers. Kimberly's father had been married to Sabrina's mother Lorraine,
00:06:30
Speaker
But when their marriage ended, it was their father who initially had custody of Sabrina. After the marriage, Lorraine had met and married a man named Fred Roark, who was Sabrina's stepfather. And Kimberly and Sabrina's father, well, Kimberly came later, but their father had begun a new relationship with Kimberly's mom.
00:06:56
Speaker
Okay. So both of them kind of began new relationships, right? Lorraine actually had called Sabrina's father and pleaded for custody of Sabrina, arguing with him that he could have more children that she could not. And so basically like she wanted Sabrina there.
00:07:19
Speaker
And he had agreed. So Sabrina went to live with Lorraine and her stepfather Fred. Okay. 12 years after he saw Sabrina's birth, their father and his new wife had welcomed Kimberly.
00:07:35
Speaker
Oh, so there's a 12 year difference between Sabrina and Kimberly. Correct. And only three times did Kimberly visit with Sabrina. The last time Kimberly was only three and Sabrina was around 15. So her memories aren't as vivid, you know, because she was so young. She doesn't really remember seeing Sabrina talking to her.
00:08:03
Speaker
And you could hear in Kimberly's voice, the longing that, you know, that she could recall those moments and be vivid detail. But instead what Kimberly has in vivid detail are the news articles about Sabrina's death.
Sabrina's Teenage Life and Restrictions by Fred Roark
00:08:20
Speaker
And Sleuthounds and Maggie, this is a case that is going to be frustrating because you are going to feel in your gut that one particular person is responsible
00:08:32
Speaker
but nothing can be done. Why? Well, I'll tell you Sabrina's story and then I'll see if you feel the same way I do. Okay. Okay. In some ways, Sabrina Kane's life is like that of other teenagers from Belleville, Illinois in 1974. She loved hanging out with her friends like Debbie, Patty and Jean. She had a boyfriend, Bob.
00:08:56
Speaker
And the 18 year old held two jobs, one at the Midwest savings and loan and the other at the Kmart grocery. Oh, so she's a busy teen. She is. But you know, that sounds very typical of a teenager. She had a car that she loved driving around and everyone recognized it when she drove it around town because it had this floured vinyl top. Oh, very floured smile. Very 1970s. Very 70s. Yeah. But
00:09:26
Speaker
Every one of those seemingly typical teenage experiences came with a price, as you'll see in just a moment. So Sabrina didn't have a lot of close friends, but at no fault of her own Maggie. So she would make plans with her friends, but then she would end up having to cancel because her stepfather wouldn't allow her to go.
00:09:50
Speaker
Or she would have friends like Jean who came over. And this was according to police interviews with Jean. There was an accident. The report didn't say what the accident was. But Jean just said that there was an accident. And she said that Fred had cursed her and then told Jean never to come back. So
00:10:12
Speaker
I'm just going to guess is Fred the person that we are going to maybe think had something to do with this, but we can't do anything about it. Correct. Okay.
00:10:25
Speaker
One evening, and this is still in this interview with Jean, she and Sabrina drove through this hamburger stand parking lot and Fred was so angry. I don't know if it was that they were together that they drove through this like hopping joint, you know, or what, but he was so angry when he found out that he grounded Sabrina. That's weird. It's like a little extreme.
00:10:52
Speaker
But luckily, some of Sabrina's friends like Debbie and Patty were the kind of friends who decided that, you know what, no matter how much they felt like Fred tried to drive them away, they weren't going anywhere. Good. But Fred also did not want Sabrina dating.
00:11:13
Speaker
An interview with Mr. Dave McKay, who was one of Sabrina's coworkers at the Midwest Savings and Loan, said that Sabrina had actually confided in some of her female coworkers, that Fred often picked her up just so she couldn't go out with boys, and that once, when Sabrina had on makeup, Fred had been so angered that he smeared her makeup and, quote, threw her down, end quote.
00:11:40
Speaker
This is not a typical relationship between a stepdaughter and a stepdad. This is weird.
Sabrina's Desire to Leave Home
00:11:46
Speaker
This is crossing the line on so many levels. I also feel like you and Rodney are probably on the same page when it comes to the rules that she has to follow. I feel like he's dictating all these rules and he's not even her biological parent. Right.
00:12:10
Speaker
In all of these scenarios where she's telling people about Fred's actions, I didn't really see her mom Lorraine mentioned. And so I don't know if Lorraine isn't there during many of these events or if she's choosing not to get involved. But either way, it's not a good situation.
00:12:36
Speaker
And to the best of this Mr. McKay's recollection, this information had been told to co-workers sometime in December of 1973 or January of 1974. And a lot of her friends had actually mentioned that they saw, including her boyfriend Bob, like a change in her demeanor sometime around Christmas.
00:13:03
Speaker
And obviously if she said he quote, threw her down, then it's physical. So had that incident been reported to police, like, did her coworkers go to police or like child protective services? No, but you'll see why here in just a moment. Okay.
00:13:20
Speaker
So before I kind of get into any more Maggie and sleuthounds, I wanted to let you know that this case is kind of hard for me to tell because many of the interviews involved in it take place over various times over the course of about 10 months. And so I'm trying to convey the details in chronological order so it's easier for you to follow.
00:13:50
Speaker
But this interview actually occurs about almost a year after the initial important date that I'm going to mention that happened in February of 1974.
00:14:09
Speaker
Okay, so we're getting them in chronological order, but really, you did not get them in chronological order. No, I did not. Okay. It was very hard to like, like I literally had timelines drawn out and I'm like inserting data so I could tell it in chronological order. Okay. So police interviewed a woman by the name of Laurel Gunstall Young.
00:14:34
Speaker
And in this interview, even though this interview didn't happen until December of 1974, she actually verified that in December of 1973, Sabrina had confided in her that Fred was quote, beating her and roughing her up, end quote.
00:14:55
Speaker
Oh my god. Yeah and she told Laurel that Fred kind of did this because he was afraid that Sabrina was going to move out and quote live with some man end quote. Okay this makes it seem like he's obsessed with her on the level that your stepfather should not be obsessed with you. And much of what I'm going to tell you is going to give you that same impression.
00:15:25
Speaker
Oh, awesome. So every report that I read, literally every report I read, mentioned how Sabrina told all of these different people in her life, or they saw with their own eyes how controlling Fred was, right? But Sabrina's mother, Sabrina's mother Lorraine told a completely different story.
00:15:54
Speaker
Did Sabrina ever tell her dad? No, and I'll get to that later on too. Okay. But Sabrina's mother Lorraine only spoke of this loving stepfather who would do anything to make Sabrina happy, including buying her a car, right? That car with the floral vinyl top on it. Fred had bought Sabrina that car, but just like everything else,
00:16:23
Speaker
came with a price because that car was often leverage for Fred to punish Sabrina if he felt that she had like disobeyed. And so very often he would take away the car privilege, which I get normally, right? Parents will be like, okay, you're grounded from your phone or you're grounded from your car or whatever. But I get the sense that what she would be punished for would be like hanging out with a friend.
00:16:53
Speaker
Driving through a parking lot. Right, driving through the parking lot of a hamburger place. And that punishment happened quite often as even Fred's friends and coworkers, and you asked a moment ago if anybody reported it to police or anything like that, and they did not because Fred was actually a Belleville police officer.
00:17:21
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yep. So there's the complication. Yeah. But even his friends and coworkers, so fellow officers, refer to Fred in interviews as a quote, hot head and having a quote, hot temper, end quote. Okay. So even they know that he's kind of cuckoo.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, that he can like blow a gasket over. Yeah. Flip a switch. Yeah. And that's why I said at the beginning that everything came with a price and it was Sabrina who bore the brunt of that temper quite often. In early February, 1974,
00:18:05
Speaker
Sabrina was, again, not in Fred's Good Graces as he had taken her car away from her and she was having to rely on friends to get to work or to go anywhere. And this is the girl that has two jobs. Yes, this is the girl who has two jobs that he has taken a car away from. Yes. Okay.
00:18:26
Speaker
So Sabrina was again telling her friends of this toxic relationship at home. And on February 2nd, Bob, remember that Sabrina's boyfriend, told police that he couldn't remember if he spoke with Sabrina that day, but that he probably did.
00:18:42
Speaker
But Fred and Lorraine reported that Sabrina didn't stay at home that night. So she's kind of, they're basically making it sound like she was at the point where she just needed, you know, a night away to cool off. She obviously didn't stay at Bob's because he can't even remember if he spoke with her. But according to them, she stayed somewhere else, not at home. That sounds fishy to me. Mm hmm.
00:19:09
Speaker
But for the very reasons we just said, like he's so controlling. She can't go through the parking lot of a hamburger joint. He smears her makeup. If she has it on, he doesn't want her to date anyone, but she's just going to not stay at home and they don't know where she's at. Right. That seems uncharacteristic. Yeah. The next day on February 3rd.
00:19:33
Speaker
Sabrina's boyfriend, Bob, called Sabrina around 6 p.m. and Fred answered. Fred wouldn't even let Bob speak with Sabrina. Do we know if Sabrina was actually home?
00:19:50
Speaker
I'm going to assume so because Bob actually received a call from Sabrina around 7 letting him know that she had walked to the Plaza Bowl like a bowling alley and telling Bob that he could pick her up from there. Oh, I'm guessing like she knew that he called she knew that Fred wouldn't let him speak to her. So she's like, I've got to walk because you know, she's not allowed to use her car right now. Walk to town and then call Bob from there.
00:20:20
Speaker
Okay. And when Bob got there around 730, he later reported to police that Sabrina was quote, terrified, and that she had cried to him, quote, let's get out of Belleville, end quote. And these are the police that work with her dad. It's not like state police, but like their local city police. Right. Okay.
00:20:46
Speaker
And Bob said that she told him that Fred had thrown her against the wall, rubbed off her makeup with his thumbs. And that sounds a lot like the incident that Laurel reported having happened the December before. So I don't know if Laurel misremembered when Sabrina had told her about the incident or if this was like it happening another time. Okay.
00:21:10
Speaker
Bob did attempt to take Sabrina out of town, at least for the time being, like for a few hours. So they tried to go visit a friend's house in O'Fallon, Illinois, but the friend wasn't home.
Sabrina's Disappearance and Aftermath
00:21:25
Speaker
And Sabrina's like, I really don't want to go back to the house yet. So she asked Bob if they could drive by her grandfather's farm. So she actually, in most everything, referred to Fred as dad.
00:21:40
Speaker
And I don't know if that's something like she chose to do or if he kind of said, this is what you're going to call me. But when she was talking about her grandfather's farm, it was actually Fred's dad, his farm. But she wanted to drive by there to see if her horse were still there. So Fred had bought Sabrina a horse, but he had recently threatened to sell it.
00:22:06
Speaker
I mean, I'm getting anxiety just listening to this. Like, I feel like she always has to be on edge. Always. Just never can breathe. So once Sabrina saw that the horse was still there, the two of them went to Bob's brother's house until about 10 PM. And then they actually went back to O'Fallon, Illinois to that friend who lived out of town that they were going to go visit. And they stayed there until around 11.
00:22:36
Speaker
Now it was getting late though and Sabrina knew she was going to have to head home. So Sabrina actually called her mom Lorraine who suggested that Sabrina have Bob drop her off with this couple who Sabrina was friends with Patty and Kurt Linton and to allow the Lintons to drive her home so that Fred wouldn't be mad. What the heck? Okay.
00:23:02
Speaker
So it's kind of like this whole town knows that her stepdad is not the nicest to her. And we're just like letting it happen. So the mom's like, just go to this friend's house and they'll drive you home. So your dad won't be mad. And they get, she gets to the friend's house. What she say, like, can you drive me home? So my dad doesn't go crazy on me and they just do it without me. Basically it's weird. The friends know how he is. You know, I'm frustrated already. I know.
00:23:32
Speaker
According to Lorraine, also in that phone call, she had actually assured Sabrina that she would help her find a suitable apartment and that she would help her pack her clothing the next day. So that makes it sound like to me, Lorraine knew how toxic the situation was at home and that kind of like the best she was going to offer was to help Sabrina move out.
00:24:00
Speaker
So Sabrina did call the Lintons to have them meet Bob, which they did.
00:24:06
Speaker
And when later asked about Sabrina's mood that night on the third, the Linton said that she was angry at Fred for his controlling behavior and that Sabrina vowed that no matter what, she was going to move out. Good for her. Yeah, so she's like fed up. She's had it. The Linton's reported bringing Sabrina home, but what's weird
00:24:33
Speaker
is in interviews Lorraine and Fred insist that Sabrina didn't stay there the night of the third. So I wonder if it's like her mom knows that Fred is mad and like it's in her best interest not to stay there you know or like I'm I don't know what the mom's doing. I don't know either but like
00:24:58
Speaker
From everything I read, Fred actually worked the night shift. But what's confusing about that is then I don't know why her mom would be like, unless townspeople talked. I don't know why her mom would be like, have somebody else bring you home. Because from my understanding, Fred wouldn't have even been there because he normally wouldn't get home till like 6.30 in the morning. And how would he know that she stayed the night? Right.
00:25:27
Speaker
But then, and Lorraine usually left for work super early. So maybe she didn't know like if, you know, Sabrina got home after Lorraine had gone to bed, maybe she didn't realize she came home. But I don't know, it's all very confusing. But they said she didn't come home that night. Okay. Around 5.30pm on February 4th, so the next day,
00:25:54
Speaker
Laurel called Bob to let him know that Sabrina was at work at Kmart and she was upset. So basically, Bob, you need to come and talk to your girlfriend. So Bob drove over to Kmart to visit Sabrina and found her in tears.
00:26:13
Speaker
So again, like, she's wanting to move out. Things are escalating. Bad situation. She's like, I'm moving out at all costs.
Investigation into Sabrina's Last Day
00:26:22
Speaker
That was on the fourth, or sorry, that was on the third. And then now we're at the fourth, and it's in the afternoon, and Sabrina is in tears again. Do we know why?
00:26:35
Speaker
I think it's more of the same thing, like just the toxicity of that environment. So Bob promised Sabrina that that night, that if she wanted to leave, he would help her.
00:26:49
Speaker
I like Bob. Yeah. And other coworkers, Susan Koenig and Donna Kolb noted similar actions from Sabrina. Both of them had worked with Sabrina that night on February 4th from 5 until 10pm. So they kind of told the same stories that I'm getting ready to share with you.
00:27:10
Speaker
So Susan said that around 9.55, so like five minutes before they were supposed to clock out, Sabrina asked if she could cash out her drawer first. She told Susan that she wanted to get home quickly and move some of her clothing before her mom and dad got home. So now it makes it sound like she's wanting to do things when Lorraine is gone also. At 10.10,
00:27:40
Speaker
Sabrina clocked out and got a ride home from Donna Kolb. Because remember, again, she doesn't have her car. She has no car. Right. So Donna told nearly the exact same account as Susan, plus one small additional detail. Okay. Donna added that before she drove Sabrina home, Sabrina had called her mom, Lorraine.
00:28:05
Speaker
So for her, it's not so much she wants to get it done while both parents are home, because they'll, you know, why would she have called her mom, but that she called her mom. And while Donna didn't hear the conversation, in an interview, Donna stated that Sabrina began crying. And then she confessed to Donna that she was having trouble at home, and that she was, quote, going to leave home, end quote. So she's telling everybody,
00:28:32
Speaker
So I wonder if maybe she called her mom and was like, I'm packing my stuff, this is it, I'm moving. I mean, she could have because Donna didn't hear the conversation. But even though Bob had promised to help her, he never got the chance because the last time anyone saw Sabrina was on February 5th, 1974. So that very next day. And Maggie Sabrina was just gone.
00:29:01
Speaker
According to an article in the Belleville News Democrat from July 11, 2018, Sabrina wasn't officially reported missing until March 22. That's a really long time.
00:29:16
Speaker
I agree I cannot for the life of me figure out why especially once you hear about how many people she spoke with on the fifth that no one reported her missing before then especially Lorraine I mean that's her mom Fred who is a cop let me remind you or her boyfriend Bob yeah like had she ever gone a month without talking to anyone
00:29:45
Speaker
Like it's so she doesn't work. She hadn't ever like up and left like vanished. But you know what I mean like ran away people basically again in modern terms. But her friends the Lenten's Patty and Kurt they did remember that there was like remember how I said Sabrina would make plans with friends but then like Fred would kind of
00:30:13
Speaker
take over and then she wasn't allowed to go do something. And so, according to Patty and Kurt, like they remembered there was a pattern of, you know, them being in pretty much continual contact with Sabrina and then not hearing from her for a couple of months.
00:30:30
Speaker
Oh, so maybe they just thought she was kind of like on house arrest. I'm assuming so. That's the only thing that I can think is that, yeah, they just assumed this was like any other time and that they would hear from Sabrina eventually. Or, I mean, maybe they were thinking that Sabrina had just left because she followed through on what she said. Yeah. Right. So to give the benefit of the doubt to Bob,
00:30:57
Speaker
Maybe he too thought Sabrina was going to leave. Because she had mentioned that she wanted to get out of Belleville. Like maybe he thought she had and was laying low for a bit. Yeah, but like, I feel like if she was actually going to leave, she would have told him like she's begging him to take her away from this town. So why would she leave?
00:31:26
Speaker
and leave him behind. I agree because this nagging voice in the back of my mind, as much as I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, I don't know. I think you're right. I would think you would have had to have been concerned because, like you said, Shirley Sabrina wouldn't have left him behind.
00:31:48
Speaker
Because she trusted him, obviously. She told him that she wanted to leave. So unless I'm reading more seriousness into their relationship than there was, I don't understand him not. Unless he was like, you know what? Sabrina's dad, stepdad, is a cop. So if she's in real danger, he would surely report it. Yeah, but I mean, he knows how hurt. Yeah. And I'm thinking, if you are odd,
00:32:18
Speaker
when we were dating our now husbands, like even in the early stages of mine and Anthony's relationship, if I went several days without, heck if I went a day without talking to him, he probably would have been concerned. Right. And I actually asked Kimberly if she had spoken with Bob and she said that they had tried to reach out to him multiple times, but he never responded to any of their correspondence. That's shady.
00:32:44
Speaker
Mm hmm. Or I don't know if it's still too painful or if he knows something. I mean, I don't know. But so she gets reported missing on March 22, which again, is a far cry from February 5, which is the last time that anyone has seen her, but then nothing until April 20 1974. So again, another month.
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah, almost a month after having been reported missing, and about 10 weeks after the last sighting of Sabrina, two men, James Werner and Cletus Ramsey, were target shooting by Forney Lake in Stooky Township when they spotted something in the lake. Oh, wow.
00:33:29
Speaker
An officer, Deputy Holing, lived nearby. So the two men went straight there to report what they had seen. And it was then that they retrieved the body of a Caucasian female from the water. The body later identified as Sabrina Kane.
00:33:46
Speaker
Now, before I tell you about how Sabrina was found and identified, I want to go back a moment to Sabrina's last day that she was seen. And again, the timeline I'm going to give you for February 5, this was probably the most complicated one.
00:34:04
Speaker
because I had to piece together details from police interviews with Lorraine, interviews with Fred, interviews with Bob, interviews with Patty, interviews with Kurt, interviews with coworkers from the bank, like interviews with all these different people. So I do want you to keep in mind when I'm giving you the details,
00:34:26
Speaker
that we kind of have to take them with a grain of salt because the only way that all of these can be taken as fact is number one, if everyone involved is telling the truth.
00:34:37
Speaker
which is probably not likely. Right. And number two, if their memories are flawless about February 5th. Also not likely, but okay. Right. Also not likely, especially when many of these details were conveyed to law enforcement only after Sabrina's body was recovered from Forney Lake in April. So at the earliest
00:35:02
Speaker
We're talking from February 5th to late April. And some of these recollections were given as late as December of 1974. So almost a year later. Wow. So here's what I could piece together. Lorraine had checked into work and this is according to her punch card at 5.45 a.m. So she got to work early. And Fred got off work around 6.30 a.m.
00:35:32
Speaker
He went home where Sabrina was asleep. Fred reported that he wanted to talk to Sabrina because he knew she wanted to leave and he wanted to talk her out of it. So both Lorraine and Fred said that Sabrina was awake by 8 a.m. because Lorraine said she called her at 8 a.m. Like Sabrina had called Lorraine at work.
00:35:57
Speaker
According to Fred, the next phone call that Sabrina made was to Midwest Savings and Loan calling in sick for the day. But an interview on April 24th with Mrs. Bunch, who was the telephone operator at Midwest Savings and Loan, she recalled it being a male voice calling in to say that Sabrina was sick and would not be coming in. Fishy.
00:36:24
Speaker
Lorraine noted that Sabrina called her again at nine to say that she was actually gonna go see Patti Linton at the bank where Patti worked.
Suspicions Against Fred Roark
00:36:36
Speaker
In the meantime, Fred stated that he gave Sabrina advice on how to pick a good apartment before Sabrina left around 930 to 945 a.m. Now I'm gonna pause here because this kind of like open and helpful conversation that Fred said happened is not what I would expect.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, like I feel like it should be like Fred stated that he gave Sabrina advice like air quotes because he probably really didn't. There's our air quotes for the episode. Yeah, because I mean literally everyone
00:37:15
Speaker
knew that Sabrina wanted to leave because of her relationship with Fred. Yeah. And I don't think he's going to be like, okay, now be sure to stay away from this neighborhood and be sure this is included in your, like, I just don't see that conversation happening. Yeah. And with how controlling he seemed, it, I guess this decision from Sabrina for her own independence does not seem one that Fred would support.
00:37:43
Speaker
No. Yeah. So she had been wanting to get her things when Fred wasn't even there. So I mean, it doesn't make sense that then he's like, let me give you some good advice for when you move out, which seems very helpful. So yeah, I just find that a bit too pleasant from the way he's describing it. Patti Linton, Sabrina's friend,
00:38:09
Speaker
said that around 9 30 that morning Sabrina walked into the bank where she worked thinking like Sabrina must have walked the mile from her home to the bank because again no car. Once there Sabrina asked if Patty would mind if she stayed with her and her husband Kurt until she found an apartment and Patty agreed.
00:38:31
Speaker
Right? So Sabrina's like, I've, even though I got to go to say, yeah, I have to get out. So Sabrina said that she, since Patty agreed, she was going to move some of her clothes over to the Linton's house. Okay. And then Sabrina actually asked if Patty would mind if she called Kurt to drive her to go see her boyfriend, Bob.
00:38:52
Speaker
Patty again said that's fine, but she was like, I can't let you use the bank phone because I'm at work. So Sabrina crossed the street to the Plaza Shopping Center to make the phone call.
00:39:03
Speaker
Okay, so all's good right now. Around 10 or 10-15, Kurt Linton, who was Patti's husband, said he received a phone call from Sabrina. So just like she had told Patti what she was going to do, Sabrina said... I mean, I feel like this timeline kind of makes sense, right? Yeah. So from 30 you're talking to your friend, you walk across the street, it's probably 10, like it just makes sense. It does. And again, this is what, none of this was as clear as I'm making it sound because I was reading it like,
00:39:32
Speaker
50 different pages and trying to piece it together. But Sabrina was at the National Food Store. So he picks her up and she says, Hey, can you take me to Kmart to see Bob? And Bob also reported that it was shortly after 10am that Sabrina came to Kmart.
00:39:51
Speaker
And she told Bob that Fred had woken her up to talk about the problems that they had been having. So none of this friendly, let me help you find a good apartment and give you advice. And Sabrina told Bob that she could not live with Fred anymore, but that her mom Lorraine was supposed to help her get her clothes out. Because Sabrina doesn't have a car,
00:40:18
Speaker
Right, because for a ticket. Correct. Bob actually offered for Sabrina to use his car and helping her get her clothes out and everything. And Sabrina said that she might actually borrow it later that day, that she would call him around six that evening. But that was a call that never came. Sabrina did make some phone calls in the meantime.
00:40:44
Speaker
So Kurt said that once they returned to his home after visiting Bob, so they got back to the Linton's home around 11, that Sabrina actually called about several of the apartments that she was looking into, and then she called her mom again. And Lorraine actually corroborated that story by saying that Sabrina had called her again around 11 to say that she was going to be looking for apartments.
00:41:11
Speaker
Oh, okay. So again, the timeline where it didn't match right now. Yes. Sabrina actually told Kurt after she got off the phone, that when her mom Lorraine got off work, that she had agreed to help Sabrina move her clothes to the Lentens. So I guess Sabrina would no longer need. Yeah, she wouldn't need Bob's car because her mom is going to help her, right? Right.
00:41:39
Speaker
So Patty, Kurt's wife, Sabrina's friend, the one who she went to see at the bank, came home for lunch around 1140. And she had lunch with Sabrina and with Kurt before she returned to work around noon. And it was around noon that two things happened. Number one,
00:42:00
Speaker
Kurt had been messing with the record player at their home and realized that it needed a new needle. So he actually left for the Plaza Shopping Center to get one. And number two, Fred called Patty at the bank asking about Sabrina. I would just boldface lied to him. I'd be like, I don't know. Bye. And unfortunately, Patty didn't.
00:42:26
Speaker
So both Patti and Fred report that Patti had suggested that if Fred wanted to speak with Sabrina, then he could go and see her at Patti's home. But she has no idea that Sabrina is alone. Oh, okay. Right? Because Kurt was there. Right. So Patti doesn't know that Kurt left.
00:42:53
Speaker
When Kurt was returning from Radio Shack, where he got his needle for the record player, around 1230, he was at the intersection of the shopping plaza. And he saw Sabrina's car pass by, because remember how recognizable? And he would know. Yeah, super recognizable. And he saw Sabrina's long blonde hair. And so he recognized it was her in the passenger seat. But he couldn't really see who was driving.
00:43:23
Speaker
So in his head, he's thinking, I mean, it could be Fred. It could be Lorraine because remember Sabrina had said that Lorraine was going to help move clothes. Yeah. Right. As soon as she got off work, but Sabrina had left a note. Patty later recalled at their home that stated something like, quote, went home to talk to my dad. We'll call you later. End quote.
00:43:51
Speaker
But I mean, yeah, because he had just talked to her and said he was, she had suggested he go to her house to talk to Sabrina. Right. So why couldn't they talk at the Linton's house? Yeah. Unless he just has that much control.
00:44:13
Speaker
And here's the other thing, either he or Lorraine had to have picked Sabrina up. It couldn't be anyone other than the two of them, because they're in Sabrina's car, and Sabrina's grounded from her car at this point.
00:44:27
Speaker
Well, interestingly, Kurt said that Sabrina's vehicle, when he spotted it, was headed west, which would have been away from the Roark residence. So the opposite direction of her home. Right. And in contrast, Fred said that he brought Sabrina home and tried to talk to her, just like the note said.
00:44:53
Speaker
and that he was going to talk to her again about the problems that they had been having. And he said that Sabrina sat on the arm of the chair, like didn't take her coat off. And that around 1 30, she got angry about something and left the home walking on foot. So then did he perhaps
00:45:15
Speaker
follow her or the mom. So maybe saw her and picked her up. No, neither one of those things. He did not follow her. And I'm glad you brought up that second part because that's a sticking point for me, because Lorraine said in an interview that she returned home from work around 1 15, which that would have been 15 minutes before Sabrina left, which means both Sabrina and Fred would have been home. But she said that when she got home, Sabrina was gone already.
00:45:46
Speaker
OK, well, I can give Fred the 15 minutes. Yeah. Like, you know, maybe he's a little confused. I'll give him the 15 minutes. OK, so then the police report notes that they told Lorraine that Fred had been seen around 1 30, which, first of all, I didn't read anywhere where Fred had been seen around. Where had he been? Yeah. When he had been at home. Yeah.
00:46:13
Speaker
So I don't know how he would have been seen at home for Sabrina to leave at the same time. So I don't really understand that. But when Lorraine was told that Fred had been seen around 1.30, then she changed her story to say, oh, maybe I got home around 1.45 or maybe even two. So I wonder if she was kind of scared of Fred.
00:46:36
Speaker
I don't know. And I also don't get what you said just a second ago. If Sabrina had left anywhere between 115 and 130,
00:46:47
Speaker
I don't know how Lorraine wouldn't have passed Sabrina on the road because I mean, remember this is a time before the age of cell phones. So it's not like Sabrina could have snuck and called someone to come get her or meet her somewhere. Like she would have had to have walked somewhere to use a phone and to use a public telephone, you have to go to a public place. So really you can only walk to town. Right. And then her mom would have passed her. Right.
00:47:17
Speaker
So when she got home and she said Fred told her that Sabrina had gotten angry and left around 130, Lorraine said that she immediately went out driving for close to two hours looking for Sabrina. Fred did not go with her.
00:47:33
Speaker
Now Maggie, let me ask you this. If you were Lorraine, where would you have gone to first looking for Sabrina? I mean, other than the police station to report Sabrina missing, which she did not do, where would you have gone first? Like immediately, obviously it's a police station, but then I would have, there would have been two places. One to the Linton's home because she was supposed to be staying there. Precisely.
00:48:01
Speaker
Or I would have found Bob to see if he had spoken with Sabrina and knew where she was at. Those are the exact two places I would have gone, but Lorraine didn't.
00:48:13
Speaker
Well, where the heck did she go? Yeah, the report didn't know where she went to look, but I do know that Patti hadn't heard anything from Sabrina or from Lorraine because it was Patti herself who called Lorraine on the fifth sometime between four and six that evening. And that was when she heard from Lorraine that Sabrina had left angry around 1.30 and hadn't been seen.
00:48:41
Speaker
And then at close to 7.30 that evening, Bob reported in an interview that it was Patty who called him to see if he had seen or heard from Sabrina and he said that he hadn't. So Lorraine didn't contact either one of them, which is odd to me. Other than the police, one person who was noticeably also not contacted
00:49:11
Speaker
Okay, is Sabrina's biological father? Yeah. So, one would think that if Sabrina had planned on leaving town, she might think about maybe going to this small town of Arcola, Illinois, where literally the entire side of her father's family lived.
00:49:33
Speaker
but no one called. In fact, Sabrina's father didn't even hear anything about Sabrina until a family member, not even Lorraine, called him when Sabrina's body was found. So do we know how far away like Sabrina's father's town was versus the town where she lived with her mom?
00:50:01
Speaker
Because I feel like if they're close to each other, and I'm wanting to leave my stepfather's house, that that's the first place I would go. That just makes the most sense. If they're close enough that it would make sense. Like if it's hours away, then no, but you know. They're about two hours away. Okay, so then that makes sense that that maybe isn't the first place that she went when she wanted to be away.
00:50:30
Speaker
Right. And I mean, again, she doesn't have a car. Right. So how would she get there? Right. But you would think that they would have been contacted. Yeah. I feel like if like, Hey, maybe she's going to hitch a ride or maybe she's going to get a friend to drive her there. And I also feel like if Anthony and I had children and we were no longer together and one of our kids went missing, like he would be one of the first people that I call like, Hey, blah, blah, blah is missing. Like we need to do something.
00:50:59
Speaker
common courtesy. So one would think all of those things. But there were some shady stuff going on. So let me tell you a little bit about Sabrina's body and the identification. So after pictures were taken of the body that was removed from Forney Lake, she was taken to a funeral home to look for identifying information. Because remember, at this point, they've just found a body.
00:51:28
Speaker
She had four rings on her hands and one of them was a class ring with the initials SJC. So soon the officers were able to make the connection between that missing persons report that was filed March 22nd of a female with this description matching the body. The stepdaughter of Belleville policeman Fred Roark.
00:51:55
Speaker
Around 4.10 PM on April 20th, Fred was brought in to identify the items and he positively identified the class ring and cried. Like as in he shed a tear or as in like he was hysterically crying. It didn't clarify that, but it did say he cried when he identified the rings.
00:52:22
Speaker
Fred told law enforcement that in the weeks after Sabrina was reported missing, that he had driven everywhere he could think of looking for Sabrina. Even, quote, as far as Tuscola, Illinois, her hometown, end quote. Okay, well, first of all, her family is from
00:52:42
Speaker
Yeah, she's from Arcola, not Tuscola. And second, you mean to tell me that he drove there but never spoke with a single member of her family while there? Yeah, like I'm going to look for you in the town in which your father's family resides, but I'm not going to talk to any of them while I'm there. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
00:53:04
Speaker
Bob, Sabrina's boyfriend, did tell the police that a couple of weeks after Sabrina was reported missing, that Fred did ask Bob to ride around with him looking for Sabrina, which alone seems super odd to me. Because remember, he didn't want Sabrina dating. Right. But Bob did note in this interview that Fred, quote,
00:53:27
Speaker
didn't seem interested in finding Sabrina." End quote. What it sounds like to me is Fred is interested in playing the part of a stepfather looking for his child. It could be. And what is most disturbing
00:53:44
Speaker
are the other details about Sabrina's identification. So Fred identified the ring, right? I told you that. He also identified all of Sabrina's clothing, including Sabrina's underwear. Excuse me? Yeah. And he even made the statement that it hadn't, this is his quote, quote, it hadn't been long since she purchased the panties, end quote. Okay, first of all,
00:54:14
Speaker
like my husband, whom I'm in an intimate relationship with, would not know if I had on panties I purchased a day ago or panties that I purchased a year ago. Yep, mine wouldn't either. That's just super weird. Super sketchy. Yeah, that her stepfather knows this. Then Fred wanted to see Sabrina's body.
00:54:44
Speaker
The officer noted that Fred's reaction was quote unquote normal. But this officer who went in there with Fred also noted that Fred made this comment that Sabrina quote, didn't have a face. Right. I mean, the body was so decomposed, which tells me that it had been in the lake for quite some time. Yeah.
00:55:11
Speaker
During the interview, Investigator Jackson said that he asked Fred if there was any reason he could think of why anyone would want to harm Sabrina. And Fred somehow misconstrued the question and responded, quote, you think she was pregnant, end quote. If you can see my face right now. Yeah.
00:55:34
Speaker
Mm hmm. And that then a court and this is in the police report that Fred started crying and said quote, she was all I had and quote, um, no, you're married to her mom. Yes, that statement is so weird to me. Because yeah, that's like the statement you would make about your spouse. Not about your
00:55:57
Speaker
I mean, I get obviously your child being, being your world, but he still has Lorraine. Well, I feel like she's all I had is an intimate statement. I agree. And then you couple that with that comment about her being pregnant. Could she have been pregnant that comes out of nowhere? Yeah.
00:56:23
Speaker
So partly because of actions and comments like those, partly because Fred was so controlling of Sabrina, especially when it came to boys, and partly because of the way that he would act around Sabrina, nearly every single person interviewed commented on the strangeness of their relationship. And Lorraine and Fred were actually asked about it by police, about that kind of seeming intimacy.
Legal Challenges in Proving Fred's Guilt
00:56:49
Speaker
Do we ever know if any
00:56:53
Speaker
if any of that was, do we ever know if what we're all thinking in our head right now actually happened to Sabrina? There's no verifiable concrete evidence. Okay. But I think you're right that everyone is assuming that there's either
00:57:18
Speaker
there's an inappropriate relationship like molestation or something like that. But when Lorraine was asked how Fred would feel about Sabrina leaving, so they're asking her some hard questions, right? That she said, quote, he might not like it, but if it would make Sabrina happy, he would help. Fred was always doing things to make Sabrina happy, end quote. Because crying for your safety
00:57:47
Speaker
is a sure sign that you're happy. Yeah, I know. Yeah, Lorraine like conveniently leaves out everything that Fred did to hurt Sabrina or cause this rift in the household relationship. But Lorraine denied anything beyond a parent child relationship between Sabrina and Fred, which of course she will. Yeah. And then Fred was asked questions about it. And first,
00:58:13
Speaker
If he loved her so much and she was, quote, all he had, they said, why didn't you ride around with Lorraine looking for Sabrina? And he was like, I don't know. He didn't have an answer, I'm assuming. Yeah. Didn't have an answer. He denied having a sexual relationship with Sabrina. But what's interesting to me was the little detail that they mentioned in the report that Fred
00:58:37
Speaker
didn't seem upset by them asking if he had a sexual relationship. So, okay, I'll admit to you, calmness, considering an accusation like that, seems odd. Yeah, because he's described as like, what was he just, it was like, hot-headed. Hot-timbered. Yeah, hot-timbered. Yeah. Yeah, so under normal circumstances,
00:59:07
Speaker
A hot tempered guy isn't going to remain calm. So the fact that they're saying he remained calm with an accusation like that does not seem normal to me. Then they started asking Fred about a firearm that he owned. A .38 caliber llama.
00:59:28
Speaker
So when the coroner completed Sabrina's autopsy, pathologist Dr. McQueen removed three slugs from her body. Sabrina had been shot from top to bottom in her arm. She'd been shot in the chest and she had been shot in the back of the head. Oh my God. Yeah. So all of the, so, and this before she was thrown into Forney Lake.
00:59:54
Speaker
All of the shots had come from a .38 caliber Spanish, French, or German automatic. That's what they ruled. And Fred Roark owned a gun fitting that description. Then her body had been tied with what was believed to be ski rope to a concrete block weighing about 50 pounds before being thrown into Forney Lake. So Fred said that he does have a gun like that. He says, I don't have it on me.
01:00:23
Speaker
but we can go to my home and you can get it. When they asked him about the rope, because Fred owned a boat and he would often take Sabrina water skiing on it, he says, you can search my boat, you can search my home, anything. So the police get to the row or comb, but the .38 caliber gun is not on the dresser like Fred said it would be. So then Fred is like, oh, you know, I'm renovating a house
01:00:53
Speaker
Maybe I left it in the house, I'm helping to renovate." So the police drive him to that address, Maggie, where he also couldn't find the gun. Okay, but... I used air quotes, couldn't find the gun. But if we're gonna, you know, maybe play devil's advocate or give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe Sabrina's killer stole it.
01:01:15
Speaker
Well, and it was at that house that he was helping renovate that Fred actually suggested that maybe someone did steal the gun, but police look around and they actually noted in the report, quote, there was a gold watch and numerous electrical tools and hand tools, but the gun was the only thing missing from this house, end quote. Hmm.
01:01:41
Speaker
So they're basically like, why would somebody come here and just steal a gun when there are all of these other valuables still lying around? Unless they're looking just specifically to murder someone. Right, but then why would they have put it in the house where Fred was renovating? That's true. So finally Fred suggested, you know what, maybe I dropped it. Air quotes again.
01:02:03
Speaker
Yeah, when Jack Erlanger, who was a neighbor and friend of Fred's, and I went to Forney Lake to help search after Sabrina's body had been discovered, and yes Maggie, you heard that right, the police had let Fred and his neighbor help search the area around Forney Lake looking for clues about Sabrina, just the two of them. So basically we could have a scene that is completely tampered with.
01:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So that's something even more sketchy, right? That detail about the search. And let me tell you something even more sketchy about it. So in an interview with Jack Erlinger, remember that's the neighbor and friend, he actually said that it was his idea to go aid in the search around 3 p.m. on April 20th.
01:02:56
Speaker
He said that Fred had come over to ask Jack for a sedative for Lorraine because she was so upset. Because remember, they had found out that Sabrina's body had been found. It's a weird request to ask your friend. Yeah, for my wife, yeah. And that around 3.30, Jack had gone over to Fred and suggested that they, according to this report, quote, go out to the lakeside, end quote.
01:03:25
Speaker
Jack then told police that he stated to Fred, quote, let's go look at the trestle because the lake where Sabrina's body was found was near some railway tracks. And so that he said to go search near the trestle quote to see if we can find anything end quote.
01:03:45
Speaker
So Jack said that was his idea. He said that to Fred. Let's go look near the trestle, right? But Investigator Jackson, in another report, noted that Fred and Jack arrived around 5.45 in the afternoon, and that it was Fred who asked the officer, quote,
01:04:08
Speaker
if anyone had searched the area of the trestle on the same road approximately one half mile west of the lake quote for the victim's purse what yeah that is awfully specific yeah you're gonna specify her purse not like yeah that's okay yeah that's like have you searched near parking spot 712 for Maggie's
01:04:36
Speaker
orange pen. Yeah, like way too specific. Right. So they were allowed to search, which obviously is a big problem. And I don't know if you remember one of our early, early, early cases that we did was a police officer son, Gary Grant Jr. And as much as that officer wanted to be part of the investigation, that is a huge no no.
01:05:01
Speaker
But Officer Jackson reported that Fred and Jack came back around 715 to say that they hadn't found anything. Probably because if they did, they disposed of it. I mean, they were gone for like an hour and a half. And let me also say, when I say Forney Lake, it's not like Cumberland Lake or something huge. I mean, Kimberly showed me a picture of it and it's really more like a large pond. Oh.
01:05:32
Speaker
So to be gone an hour and a half is quite some time. Later, officers took Fred when they were looking for his gun, right? Because he's like, maybe I dropped it near the lake when I was looking for evidence about Sabrina. So they take him to the lake and they ask him to show the path that he took. They, as you could probably guess, did not find the gun.
01:05:56
Speaker
police later took Jack Erlinger to that same site and they say, show us the path that you and Fred took. Please tell me, is it different paths? Kind of.
01:06:14
Speaker
Jack said that Fred had never been out of his sight. And at first, the path that Jack showed them was the same. But then there was a slight variation later. And Jack Erlinger was actually questioned. They were like, why did Fred show us a different path? Why did Fred say he went over here? And Jack Erlinger replied, quote, maybe he did.
01:06:42
Speaker
And I don't know if you caught the pronoun there, Maggie, but he didn't say we. He said he.
01:06:50
Speaker
So they were never separated. Exactly. And besides that, last time I checked, you can't look down and up at the same time. Like, meaning he couldn't have been looking down and searching for clues at the same time that he could be continually looking up and watching every moment to see what Fred was doing. So could Fred have hidden something or picked something up?
01:07:14
Speaker
A 16-year-old on April 26th found more evidence, a lady's shoe near a drain pipe by the lake. And Fred was actually asked to identify the shoe, but he said, I'm going to have to ask Lorraine to be sure. But you can identify her panties. Yes. Yes. I was thinking, hold up. So you know Sabrina's underwear by seeing it, but you don't recognize her shoes?
01:07:42
Speaker
I mean, I feel like Anthony could recognize my shoes. That's a common thing. Your panties, not so much. Right. Then Fred said that he wasn't going to say anything until his lawyer got there. And this is by the 26th. So we're only six days after Sabrina's body has been discovered that he is lawyering up.
01:08:04
Speaker
And it was then that Fred kind of clammed up and he wouldn't speak. So he's like, I'm not going to speak without a lawyer, which I'm not going to say is a sign of guilt in and of itself. It's actually good, a good move to hire a lawyer. But you'd think as an officer, he would have known to do that from the beginning. He would have been like, you know what? I don't need one. Yeah.
01:08:26
Speaker
But at this point, Fred was actually suspended from the police department because even though he initially agreed to take a polygraph, he was now refusing to take one. So law enforcement still obviously needed something to either prove Fred's guilt or his innocence. And they're like, we have to find this gun.
01:08:50
Speaker
because they have the slugs from a gun that were in Sabrina's body. And with ballistics, you can check.
01:08:57
Speaker
So they were actually able to find out that Fred often went to his father's farm, the same one where the horse was kept, to go target shooting. So they go up to Fred's dad's farm. And Fred's dad was like, yeah, we both shot Fred's .38 caliber here, you know, along with some other guns. And he says, you know, you officers are welcome to search. And he takes them to the place where they would target shoot.
01:09:23
Speaker
But what officers recovered though, were only shells from a 22 caliber and a nine millimeter. So they don't find anything from the 38 caliber llama. So we don't think that they actually shot the 38 there? Either that or somebody picked up those shells or something.
01:09:45
Speaker
Later, a tuft of Sabrina's hair was found near the Dreampipe as well. And on April 24th, and we still don't know who sent this, but mailed to Sheriff O'Neill of the Belleville Police Department was a note reading, quote, her stepfather killed Ms. Kane, that D-A-M, so it was misspelled, policeman, end quote.
01:10:12
Speaker
So the only person who clues seem to be pointing to this whole time was Fred Roark. But despite, I know, despite not having any concrete link to Fred and mostly what would be in a court of law circumstantial evidence, Fred Roark did go on trial for the murder of his stepdaughter, Sabrina Kane. That's kind of surprises me though.
01:10:41
Speaker
Yeah, I know because with the gun missing, they can't match ballistics. And Fred did often take Sabrina water skiing and Sabrina's body was tied with ski rope, but is that enough? And I also read, and I brought this up to Kimberly, it mentioned in one of the reports that the knots that were tied in the rope
01:11:07
Speaker
like to the concrete block and then to Sabrina's body, were both half hitch knots, which are like regular knots like you and I might tie. But then there was also a square knot. And I asked Rodney about it because on the fire department, they have to know how to tie like all these different types of knots. And he said without knowing anything about the case, that if it were a true square knot,
01:11:33
Speaker
then that kind of knot is a two-step process where you have to go like right over left and then left over right and in his opinion it would have been tied by somebody who'd been around rope like somebody who knew or was around boats because you use it to tie two ropes together.
01:11:50
Speaker
So he said that without even knowing anything about the case, that he would think it would be somebody who'd been around boats, for example. And I don't know about you, Maggie, but I've never tied a knot that required two steps. I didn't even know there was a thing. That was such a thing. So yeah. And as for boats, again, Fred had a boat. But unfortunately, that connection and then linking him to a crime is only circumstantial.
01:12:19
Speaker
But the trial was held. It was actually held in a county that was a nearby county because Fred's lawyer felt like Fred wouldn't get a fair trial in Belleville due to all the rumors. I can agree with that though. Right. And the prosecution though, even had a witness, a man named Donald Martindale, who said that as an assistant manager at IHOP, he had overheard Fred tell others, quote, I didn't mean to kill her.
01:12:49
Speaker
I didn't mean to get her pregnant." Which explains why he freaked out and said, are you trying to say she's pregnant or whatever he said? Right. Yeah, so in my mind, what Donald Martindale said, I'm like, oh my gosh, this ties everything together, right? Here's the problem.
01:13:13
Speaker
The managers at IHOP said that contrary to what Donald Martindale testified, they had actually fired him the day before he supposedly overheard Fred having this conversation.
01:13:29
Speaker
We could have got the days wrong. He could have, and I agree with you. But the defense lawyer, so Fred's lawyer, also pointed out that Martindale had never been an assistant manager, like he claimed to be in his testimony that he was just a busboy.
01:13:46
Speaker
And then Fred's attorney said, isn't it true that Fred Roark's partner actually arrested you just a few days before you conveniently overheard this conversation for a curfew violation?
01:14:03
Speaker
Okay, so now he's lost all credibility. Right. So all of those things made Martindale in the eyes of those in the court to be a liar, at least somebody who stretched the truth, which then called into question every single one of his other statements. Right. Now, I will say, and I said this to Kimberly, in the trial, Martindale actually was very forthcoming about his run-ins with the law.
01:14:29
Speaker
Like they asked him about, you know, getting into trouble with Fred or Fred's partner. And he actually admitted that he had indeed twice been arrested by Fred and his partner. So like he's forthcoming about it and like admitting it. You know what I mean? Like he's not trying to hide it. And he basically said in court, you know, I'm not angry with them. They were just doing their job. And so it's hard for me because
01:15:00
Speaker
Again, he's not trying to hide the fact that he had been in trouble, but then on the other hand, the managers are like, well, he's stretching the truth about all these other things. What else could he be lying about? And then the IHOP managers, the ones who were like, he's never been an assistant manager. They said on the stand that they didn't even know who Fred was.
01:15:24
Speaker
According to my interview with Kimberly, she though has it on good authority from several people who she's spoken with that the Belleville officers actually frequented the the IHOP all of the time and that those managers would have been acquainted with all of the officers. So seems like maybe they're trying to kind of protect them a little bit. Right. But like none of that was brought up in trial.
01:15:51
Speaker
The postcard was anonymous, so they couldn't question the author of it. What people thought of Fred and Sabrina's relationship were just rumors. There was no gun or casings to compare. And now Donald Martindale's testimony is in question.
01:16:09
Speaker
despite the fact that both he and the reporting officer noted Fred's odd preoccupation with Sabrina potentially being pregnant. She wasn't, by the way. Oh, that was when I was getting asked. Yeah, the autopsy showed that. But like everybody knows he had this odd preoccupation with it. And there are all of these further questions that we wish they would have asked or probed into, but they didn't. And in the end, Fred was found innocent.
01:16:39
Speaker
And sadly, whether you agree with that verdict or not, that was the decision of the court.
01:16:47
Speaker
But justice was not served on that day, Maggie, because since that day, despite the fact that Sabrina's case has not been officially closed, right? It's still considered an open investigation. Police stopped their investigation into her case. And what angers me about this, Maggie, is that even if Fred didn't do it, somebody did. Right. So why are we no longer looking?
01:17:14
Speaker
Yeah. And police just stopped searching. They're like, well, somebody's been tried. But all the time, Kimberly receives calls from those who lived in Belleville at the time saying that they, that everyone knows who did it. And they say, quote, he did it. And I think we know who they're implying. So what are your thoughts, Maggie? Okay. Well,
01:17:43
Speaker
I can't really blame the jury for saying that Fred was innocent because like you said, a lot of the evidence was circumstantial, even though people may feel strongly otherwise. I feel like the justice system followed what it's supposed to there. I'm like you, if her case is still open and Fred didn't do it, someone did, so we should still be trying to figure out who someone is.
Kimberly's Quest for Justice and Listener Engagement
01:18:14
Speaker
Right. I do think that like a lot of our other cases it's hard to be in a small town where people are going to start rumors or believe rumors and it's hard even if Fred if Fred were innocent for him to
01:18:36
Speaker
overcome those rumors, you know? I mean, I'm not saying that he is innocent and I'm not saying he's guilty because I don't know. Right. Part of me just wishes that they had waited longer to go to trial, like had more concrete evidence. And I feel like sadly at this point, the only way we'll ever know anything for sure is to locate and test Fred's gun.
01:19:02
Speaker
and it has yet to be found. Sadly, Kimberly acknowledged that so much time has passed and given the outcome of the trial, it's unlikely that justice will be served in her sister's case, at least as the law goes. Lorraine and Fred have both since passed away, carrying any knowledge they have to the grave. But those who are left behind, like Kimberly,
01:19:28
Speaker
have to pick through the lingering memories of those who do know something. And she shouldn't have to suffer.
01:19:36
Speaker
In Kimberly's words from her Facebook page, quote, I will never give up your fight. I will not back away because it makes people uncomfortable. I will not give up ever. You will always be my sister, whether alive or not, and I will do whatever I can until the day I join you to bring you the justice you so deserve, end quote.
01:20:00
Speaker
You see, Kimberly is forced to rely on the kindness of strangers to learn about who her sister, Sabrina, was and to connect with her. Despite not having closure in the court of law,
01:20:12
Speaker
at least Kimberly can be reminded that people care. Stories here, yearbook messages there. But Sabrina Kane does not deserve for her name to be forgotten within the dusty covers of a yearbook to be stored away in the recesses. Instead, she deserves to have her story told. She deserves for us to take another look. She deserves to have her name remembered. And Kimberly,
01:20:40
Speaker
deserves to know that she's not alone. Sabrina's case will never be closed nor overlooked as long as we vow sleuth hounds to never let that happen again. I encourage all of you to show Kimberly your support and that we are right here fighting alongside her as I have by joining the Facebook group, hashtag justice for Sabrina.
01:21:08
Speaker
Again, please like and join us on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and to see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases podcast. Or you can always email us suggestions to Coffee and Cases podcast at gmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families.
01:21:36
Speaker
Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.