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Inside the Legal Battle Over Home Distilling | Rick From HDA
878 Plays2 months ago
Rick from the Hobby Distillers Association joins me to break down the latest legal fight over home distilling in the USA. We cover what the recent court win actually means, what it does not mean, and why this fight may be bigger than distilling itself.
Join the HDA or get in contact with them here:
https://hobbydistillersassociation.com
Distilling Supplies And Equipment:
https://chasethecraft.com/?utm_source=zen&utm_medium=ctcpod&utm_campaign=hda-pod-2026
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Transcript
Is home distillation being legalized in the USA?
00:00:00
Speaker
If you were part of the distillation or home distillation world or community, I'm gonna bet you've started seeing headlines about how home distillation, hobby distillation is suddenly legal in the USA.
00:00:16
Speaker
It turns out it's really not that simple and that's not the case. But This is still a big win for the movement. So I sat down with Rick from the HDA, the Hobby Distillers Association, the group behind what's happening at the moment to get the real story, what actually happened, what actually changed, what it actually means for different groups of people right now, and probably more importantly, what it might mean for the future.
00:00:49
Speaker
I want to get straight into the conversation with Rick because there's a lot to cover here but first the big takeaway is if you believe in what they're doing, if you believe that hobby distillation or home distillation should be just straight out legal in America, that you should have that freedom, what you should probably do right now is go to the HDA's website and sign up as a member.
00:01:14
Speaker
And I'm saying that now because we didn't say it until the end of the podcast. I want to get it out there. I'll put links and descriptions wherever I can. But right now, let's get on to the conversation with
Rick's journey and challenges in the distillation industry
00:01:25
Speaker
Rick.
00:01:25
Speaker
All right, we are here with Rick from the Home Distillers Association. ah And we actually talked almost 10 years ago, Rick. This has been a journey. ah ah So I think maybe...
00:01:42
Speaker
I feel like, and we can get into this in a little bit, but I feel like there's something different about the headlines now. I don't know why, but in the past, I'd have people that were embedded in the distilling culture, either on the home distilling side or the legal side, getting in touch with me saying, Hey, have you seen this news news headline? And now I'm getting people that have nothing to do with distilling, but they know I'm into distilling.
00:02:11
Speaker
flicking the headlines and saying, Hey, check this out. Did you know about this? yeah um ah Which is awesome. There's got to be a good thing and we can get into that. But I have a suspicion that maybe we've got some viewers or listeners, depending on where you're watching this, that don't have the history of what's going on. So maybe should we set the, should we set the historical stage a little bit first and then we can kind of get into what's happening now.
00:02:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think that'd be a good idea. So they know where where at all stems from. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so actually first, who are you, sir? And why should people like listen to your take on this? Because you've you've got a pretty specific point of view on this.
00:02:57
Speaker
I do. I've been in the industry for lot of years. 30...
00:03:04
Speaker
34 years now, um been doing doing the home, the beer slash distilling side of things under brew house. We started that over 30 years ago and grew into the distilling about 2000 that we expanded into the distilling side.
00:03:21
Speaker
So I've got a little bit of history on on this um through all those many years for for a great part, yeah People that were doing this, what you're doing legally over there, the home people here just had to remain in the shadows.
00:03:40
Speaker
And it's been that way. People, although they weren't happy about it, they kind of accepted that that was their fate.
Impact of 2019 failed bill and COVID-19 on legalization
00:03:49
Speaker
And they just generally kept quiet about it.
00:03:52
Speaker
Things changed, as you know, back in 2014. twenty fourteen And that's when the TTB went around to lot of the the manufacturers, distributors of distilling equipment demanding customer lists.
00:04:08
Speaker
And unfortunately, in the U.S., they have the legal right to do that. And that is when we started you know the Hobby Distillers Association. We felt that...
00:04:20
Speaker
Now is time that they needed to, we needed to be given the same recognition that beer and winemakers get. Had a lobbyist, we went through that whole process. We were actually on a bill. It almost got legalized.
00:04:34
Speaker
um Our provision got pulled from the bill, essentially. They re-entered the bill and it got passed. There were powers not wanting it to happen.
00:04:47
Speaker
At that point, things kind of died off. A lot of people that had gotten excited, people that had gotten upset when were around and then you know obviously backed the Hobby Distillers Association at that point.
00:05:05
Speaker
they Then he it gained excitement when we were on a bill and it looked like we might get somewhere. When the bill died, so did a lot of that enthusiasm. And yeah, understandably, everybody was they were disappointed. Plus, they didn't see that light anymore.
00:05:24
Speaker
And so we kind of died off. ah think it was 2019, it was just pre-COVID that yeah Dan Greenberg, attorneys, they were at that time with a company called CEI, reached out about you know going at this a different way.
00:05:44
Speaker
And that's kind of where we're at now. It fell apart due to this little thing you may have heard of called COVID. yeah yo It happened just as we were starting to get ah working together and that yeah put the world on hold for the better part of a couple of years.
00:06:01
Speaker
But after that kind of calmed, we picked up and that's where, know, what has led to today.
HDA's legal victory against federal government
00:06:09
Speaker
Yeah, cool. So...
00:06:13
Speaker
Do you want to talk a little bit more about the bill? um How it was the the technique, the strategy of of kind of what it was piggybacking on yeah to go to go through? And then...
00:06:29
Speaker
the From my understanding, the overwhelming problem there was kind of funding on the lobbyist side. Is that is say ah a real take?
00:06:40
Speaker
Partially. um Okay. were on, it was called the Kraft Emerging Modernization Act, something along those lines. I don't don't remember the exact name of it anymore. it's It was years ago. At my age, you're lucky if I remember what i had for breakfast.
00:06:57
Speaker
It was a provision that was carved out that would have, made home distilling right alongside of home brewing and home winemaking. We would have had the same recognition. It would have just been wide open and legal on a federal standpoint. um the There was pushback from industry.
00:07:19
Speaker
Funny that. Yeah. And unfortunately, it had over, i think it was over two thirds of the House, over half of the Senate had actually co-sponsored this bill.
00:07:36
Speaker
It did not go to the floor for a vote because the pushback um and the They deep pockets and and highly paid lobbyists to go against us. We didn't have quite so deep of pockets. And so they managed to actually kill that bill because it was right at the end of the session.
00:07:57
Speaker
They managed to kill the bill entirely. When the the new session started a month later, they re-entered it with our provision removed and it sailed right through.
00:08:09
Speaker
So they actually killed their bill just to avoid us getting yeah people getting home distilling legalized. So the bill, the the larger bill, because because the the home distilling side was piggybacking on the craft.
00:08:28
Speaker
it It was trying to kind of level out, um I guess the economics for for smaller craft producers in that space. Was that the idea? The biggest thing on that bill, what it was doing, um which really helped the small producers, is when you... The way it was prior to that bill is you had to pay the the excise tax. as As a legal commercial distillery, you would pay the excise tax on what you produced.
00:08:58
Speaker
at the time it was produced. Well, if you're aging, you're making bourbon and it's being aged for several years, you've paid the excise tax on that. You're not just sitting on the you know the cost of the aging materials, barrels, the product that's inside of it, you're also sitting on that excise tax for several years. And then when you come out you bottle it, as we all know, you've you've lost product.
00:09:24
Speaker
So then you could apply to get back the excise tax on that difference. On oncan yeah what disappeared. yeah They changed it so that you would pay at time of bottling.
00:09:35
Speaker
And to a huge, you know, brown foreman like yeah Jack Daniels, Yeah, it wasn't as big of a deal. Yeah, they've got the cash flow established already. But the the the little guys, that made a huge difference. So it was a great bill, um and it actually yeah was suitable for us because it was primarily an alcohol-related bill.
00:10:00
Speaker
It's just that there were people that didn't watch it. Us allowed. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so that fell apart. Yeah.
00:10:11
Speaker
You got ah in contact with CIE, CEI? I can't remember which it is. CEI, originally who ran with it, Competitive and enterprise Enterprise Institute, yes. Okay, cool.
00:10:24
Speaker
ah You started scheming, you started planning, and then COVID, bam, got slapped down. um So not I guess there's not a whole lot to cover between and and COVID.
00:10:39
Speaker
But around about a year ago, there were headlines coming out of Texas as well. So is that kind of the next logical step to go to? Or or am I missing something between COVID and there?
00:10:50
Speaker
the On a federal side, and and here's the other thing is with the Hobby Distillers Association, our goal is, in the end, obviously full recognition, getting us on on board federally, just like beer and winemaking. um We're having to do baby steps. We also have to think of the states. There are several states that have legalized home distilling.
00:11:13
Speaker
It may be illegal federally, but they've legalized it at a state level. ah But many have not. So, you know, those that are looking at, you know, what we'll get into here with the events of this past week, that's still just a ah small piece of what we have to do. This is going to be it's not a sprint. It's going to be a marathon.
00:11:35
Speaker
Now, the um what you heard, I guess, iss almost two years ago now out of Texas was when we sued the federal government.
00:11:46
Speaker
the t the TTB, the DOJ, um that went to district court, federal courts, but because Hobby Distillers Association is located in Texas, that's the district that, of the court that we use.
00:12:04
Speaker
Right. And so, yeah, that you know Hobby Distillers Association won that bill. And there was a, Obviously, you know a bump in interest. People were quite excited about that. People were hearing about it but nothing like what's happening.
Inspiration from New Zealand for US legalization
00:12:22
Speaker
Right ask That was ah yeah an explosion of things. so Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:28
Speaker
So what's what's the... um And it's my understanding that what's happening now is just a direct extension of what first happened in Texas. So do you want to explain...
00:12:41
Speaker
It sounds kind of crazy. you just sued the government, yeah like especially for someone from New Zealand who doesn't understand the American system that well. You sound like a madman and I love it. ah But explain the explain the your position in doing that and what what's the argument to be able to even do that?
00:13:05
Speaker
the And that's what the the attorneys had actually dug into. They obviously had kind of followed where we had gotten um the path we had taken trying to get it legalized through a change in the the actual law.
00:13:23
Speaker
And when that didn't happen, they looked into other aspects of the way that law is written and felt that it actually went against the Constitution, that the bill was actually – the law that was in place was unconstitutional.
00:13:41
Speaker
And so that's – the direction they wanted to to go after it. And you're right, I had some reservations about suing the government. I thought, man, what a way to put a target on your back. um But that was, you know, it was all explained and it it sounded like a ah good direction to go. um the That got filed in, again, in the in the federal courts, in the
00:14:12
Speaker
in the and North Texas district. um And when that came through and the the judge agreed that it was not constitutional, ah then the government had the opportunity, obviously, to appeal.
00:14:28
Speaker
So what was the what was the argument that it's not constitutional? What's the like what's the basis that you're fighting on here? And I can only...
00:14:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not going to give you all the legalese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to give it away. My understanding of it. Yeah, nothing in this podcast is legal. My understanding is a layman. Yeah.
00:14:55
Speaker
And I've read through, yeah know of course, a lot of court documents, et cetera. And the way that both of them have come back is the government – used a ah taxing regulation, which they are allowed to do. Congress can set taxes and collect taxes.
00:15:14
Speaker
Where they went wrong here is the Constitution does not essentially give them, well, as the judge on this that wrote the opinion letter stated, can't use a tax law as a policing law.
00:15:29
Speaker
And by saying that you're going to collect tax on alcohol in this case, if you create alcohol, you have to pay the tax. they They don't have the right under the Constitution to use that same law to say where you can and cannot produce the product, only that if you do, you hope you owe tax.
00:15:54
Speaker
Okay. What we've is said you can do it in a warehouse. You cannot do it in a home. Same product, same process.
00:16:05
Speaker
um my yeah For Brookhouse, our warehouse is three minutes away. I could load up still there, bring it home and set it up here.
00:16:18
Speaker
That would be the difference between legal and not legal, being able to get a permit and not get a permit. Yeah. Okay. so so your, uh, the, the strategy here is not to swing for the rafters and legalize home distilling,
00:16:37
Speaker
Outright, like we have it
Addressing safety concerns and misconceptions
00:16:39
Speaker
in New Zealand. so So for clarity, in New Zealand, it's completely legal for me to home distill for personal use only. So I can't give it away. I can't barter with it.
00:16:50
Speaker
Technically, I can't even share it. But what I can do is ferment and distill for my own personal consumption, essentially with no... real guardrails. I don't have to pay tax.
00:17:03
Speaker
I don't have to report anything. I don't need a permit. There's not like a specific cap on what I can and can't make. You're not going straight for that. You're just trying to take like a bite out of where your situation in America is and start heading towards what New Zealand has. Am I understanding that correctly?
00:17:24
Speaker
Exactly, we did go after exactly what New Zealand has. That's what field would have done. And we used you. We pulled a lot of information from New Zealand because, i mean, what better what better place to get data from showing how safe it is when it's a country that is you know on similar level. It's not like your third world country. You're on basically on par with us as far as economics and the general people. um
00:17:55
Speaker
Very, very similar. and it's not like this was legal in in New Zealand 100 years ago. It was, what it, 1996 that it legalized? I believe Yeah. Honestly, you probably know the history and the setup of New Zealand better than I do just because it's an argument for you. Safety fires, you know,
00:18:14
Speaker
yeah safety fires you know poisonings, et cetera, to show when we were going after just full on legalization, to show the government, you know the representatives we met with, hey, yeah all the things you heard, no, here's you statistics.
00:18:33
Speaker
We can show you that it's not happening. The fires were the big thing that that surprised me. ah We expected to see some right some relevant number there because it it has that potential. but and And that's another reason New Zealand was fantastic to use because being legal there, they would actually show in cause different causes of the fires what the cause was.
00:19:03
Speaker
and Electric stove, camp you know campers, all these different things. Barbecues, smokers, yeah. Yeah, and... The number was considered statistically insignificant. You had a fraction of the number of fires coming from a still that you had even from an electric stove. So just people cooking on an electric stove.
00:19:24
Speaker
I would have expected that it would have definitely been above electric stove, maybe below gas or something, but it was that that small of a number. So it just showed when we were hitting the government with the information that, no, this is not so dangerous.
00:19:38
Speaker
um And we had similar information with respect to the quote on the big fear, the thing that everybody always throws at you. Oh, you're going to go blind. And it's you actually have to um almost do it intentionally. it's It's only going to be in adulterated spirits or you have to pull the methanol, just ah just the methanol alone from multiple batches and consume that within about 30 minutes is about the only way you can actually poison yourself.
00:20:12
Speaker
yes But because the government doesn't want it done, of course, they keep these i ideas easier or or certainly let them run rampant.
00:20:23
Speaker
yeah Yeah, exactly my assessment too. But the only way you can actually poison someone is being a shady ass producer, using shady ass equipment, doing shady ass things to make shady ass money. that's That's kind of my summary of the situation.
00:20:37
Speaker
um Kind of like the Thailand thing, right? It's ah it's cheaper to to cut alcohol with something that no one should drink.
Role of public opinion in changing laws
00:20:45
Speaker
yeah So they do distill something or they say they do, and then they put denatured alcohol into it or straight up methanol or whatever they get their hands on.
00:20:55
Speaker
um but They're essentially a drug dealer, right? They're cutting their product to make more money. And if you take that out of the situation, it's really, really hard. Like you like you say, you have to almost intentionally...
00:21:11
Speaker
do something stupid to get a stupid result. And and i yeah we should say, yes, there is a safety concern. Yes, you need to know what you're doing. but But I was talking to Kyle from Claw Hammond the other day and the analogy that we sort of landed on was smoking chicken on a pellet smoker on your back deck just seems way more malicious and terrifying than distilling in almost every way. You're much more likely to burn your house down with a grease fire, I think, and probably the statistics out of New Zealand show that. And you're much more likely to actually hurt someone with Salmonella poisoning from uncooked chicken.
00:21:54
Speaker
Um, But we have the freedom. I have the freedom, even in New Zealand. It's not exactly the land of free, but I'm allowed to smoke chicken in my backyard. You know, you're right. There are so many things we talk about. Turkey fryers.
00:22:08
Speaker
you Yeah. Yeah. actually Where I am down in the South. I mean, that's, you know, other than other than special occasions like Christmas, that's how you do a turkey. Right.
00:22:19
Speaker
And you have far more hazards with that. that can happen injuries and yeah so many things, but that's allowed.
00:22:31
Speaker
Uh, somebody brought up, you know, in one of the articles we've seen, you know, using that mentality, you shouldn't be allowed to work on your own car. I shouldn't be able to go out and fix, you do the brakes on my car.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I could hurt myself on the car. I could hurt somebody else. That's allowed. So, um, I think that, yeah in my opinion, their argument is that it doesn't carry nearly the weight that
00:23:02
Speaker
that they like to suggest. Yeah. All right. So let's bring this back to instead of going whole hog and trying to get everything that New Zealand's got, you're taking this little bit. You're taking a baby step. You're you're like trying to get inroads.
00:23:18
Speaker
And the argument was that essentially trying to tell me if I'm wrong here, but it's essentially using the law to say that we have to protect taxable income for the government. And we're going to do that by saying that you cannot distill at home and that's illegal.
00:23:37
Speaker
That that's the idea that's unconstitutional. and Again, under the constitution, the way that it's been explained to me few times by these attorneys, but no, I'm ah an attorney, so I might get something wrong here.
00:23:52
Speaker
um What they are actually doing is is not just preserving that tax be and making sure that they are able to collect that tax by having the ban, not being able to distill it in the home.
00:24:07
Speaker
that and in the in the actual opinion letter, i don't know if you read the news, 35 pages or whatever it was, um in the opinion letter, they actually make the point that by seeing you cannot do it at home,
00:24:21
Speaker
by restricting the location, you're actually stopping that from coming into existence and therefore you're reducing the amount of tax that you're able to collect. Genius. i And that that came out of the yeah the judge that wrote the opinion on it. And it's it's very true. you if you are If you allow it in the home, then you know In that mindset, it means that there will be more produced, which means more revenue to the government, not less.
00:24:51
Speaker
Somewhere between one and two years ago, this went, I don't know the terminology, but to the local court, the local judge in Texas,
00:25:04
Speaker
And that judge essentially ruled in, in, in favor of what you were saying. and that's what we're referring to when I said that it was a little bit of a blip on the kind of the the social zeitgeist on the the online community.
00:25:20
Speaker
I think people like you and that are, sort of embedded in that culture and that and that group of people definitely would have heard about it. But outside of that, no one really did.
00:25:33
Speaker
yeah um And it's also my understanding that almost immediately the government appealed that. Am I correct? They took a little bit of time because he and the judge, Judge Pittman on the district court,
00:25:51
Speaker
gave them little bit of time, a stay. So there was, I can't remember the exact number of days. It was 15 days, 30 days, something in there that the government had that they could appeal it and it would, know, basically a judgment did not come into effect immediately. He he stayed that so that yeah people still would not be able to get their permits at home for, you know, if if, and if they appealed within those number of days, then the law would have stayed intact the way it was until the appeal was heard.
00:26:28
Speaker
and really They went beyond that. So yeah on whatever date it was, then the the ban was lifted where if you applied for a permit, as long as you were one of the plaintiffs, which meant Scott McNutt or a member of the Hobby Distillers Association, because it's a member based association, then you would be allowed to get your permit.
00:26:54
Speaker
As long as you met all the other qualifications, the location did not matter anymore. Yeah, right. They actually took it down to the 11th hour on filing their appeal.
00:27:06
Speaker
ah So you know during that time, then you were allowed to get the the permit. And the appeal was heard last August.
00:27:16
Speaker
I guess what's the timeline between the initial...
Legal pathways and importance of HDA membership
00:27:22
Speaker
in Texas and where we are now, are there are there important steps between or or is this the escalation of that appeal that we've just had?
00:27:33
Speaker
Yeah, the a lot of it in between is just a waiting game. Right. because They had roughly 90 days, I think it was, or 120 days to file their appeal. They did that.
00:27:44
Speaker
ah Then it's how long until the the courts take it up. So ah the original ruling, I believe, was in June of 24 at the district court.
00:27:56
Speaker
ah It was heard by the ah the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in August of 25. So it took, we'll say, a better part of a year, nine months or so, ah before it even went to the Fifth Circuit, the Court of Appeals.
00:28:14
Speaker
okay They then have as long as they want to bring down a ruling. they so that weird way one i and I've had people, so many people contacting us you know in in the time since it was heard saying, have you heard anything? Have you heard anything? And I'm having to tell them the same thing.
00:28:34
Speaker
No. And yeah the reason we are throwing up blogs and and Facebook posts is all we'd be saying is nothing yet. right It's just a waiting game to see.
00:28:47
Speaker
and And then it just comes out of the blue that this past Friday, the ruling came down. Yeah. Okay. So I feel like we've done our half an hour worth of due diligence so we can talk about the juicy stuff.
00:29:00
Speaker
Okay. yeah So what's the, what just happened last week and why is everyone's inbox blowing up?
00:29:12
Speaker
Yes. Okay. came down. They brought the ruling out. And I think if it had been, ah if the ruling from the district court had been overturned, if they found in the government's favor, you wouldn't be hearing all this. You'd hear be hearing a lot of disappointment, but it would just, again, be within our community.
00:29:29
Speaker
yeah But the fact that they upheld the earlier court's ruling meant that, you know, the I have to admit that several of the, unfortunately, several of the media outlets are getting it wrong. They're going, home distilling might be legal. Well, no, this is still, as we discussed, this is a step toward, but this does not open the door to what you have.
00:29:54
Speaker
We're hoping that, you know Since going directly after that didn't work, these baby steps will. It still provides a path. It still provides a legal way to do it.
00:30:05
Speaker
um Do we want to leave it at that long term? No, but that is still a lot better than what we had. And it is still such a huge step forward.
00:30:19
Speaker
A hundred and... almost 160 year old law. This is by far in a way the closest we've ever gotten to what our end goal is.
00:30:31
Speaker
I, I get the feeling too that, especially in a place like America with a lot more history than somewhere like New Zealand and the, the giant political juggernaut that comes along with a much larger country with States. And you know, we don't have that here.
00:30:50
Speaker
I have to imagine that a lot of these things are rules and laws because they're rules and laws. And it's just so damn hard to actually change anything, to get enough momentum for anything to be important enough to change. And if that's true, then just having this grow in kind of the course of public opinion, having it become more of a ah household discussion, having more people see it on their radar.
00:31:28
Speaker
Surely just that in and of itself is a giant win for you. It is. It's huge. And going back to, as you said, it's so difficult to get yeah get change happening in a country this size.
00:31:44
Speaker
There's also so little interest in in it, to be honest. ah Missouri, just a few years ago, legalized homebrewing on the state level. And why was it difficult?
00:31:57
Speaker
Because they didn't care. They weren't prosecuting anybody. out So to try and get enough interest in your representatives to go and make that change, change that law, was difficult for them.
00:32:13
Speaker
The great thing for them is because, um probably in part because of the work we had done prior to to that point, um the when they enacted their home brewing and wine making law, they also encompassed home distilling.
00:32:30
Speaker
So at a state level, home distilling in Missouri is completely legal. But the feeds can still come after you, even if you're there. this Is that the idea? Exactly. But right now, if you're in Missouri,
00:32:43
Speaker
you have a path to get a ah permit from the TTB and it's legal in your state. So you do actually have a path to to home distilling that.
00:32:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's epic. Absolutely epic. 10 states, I believe, because when we went after Texas last year, when we were talking to the community, we were saying, you know, we should be the 11th.
00:33:08
Speaker
Got very close. Just ran out of time. yeah Yeah. So essentially, the what's just happened in Texas is,
00:33:21
Speaker
it's nothing new is it? It's just exactly, you've gone from local to fifth circuit.
00:33:29
Speaker
Uh, you sued the government, the judge found in favor of your case back then.
00:33:39
Speaker
The government has appealed that. And so there's no real new information. It's just that it's been escalated to the fifth circuit. And the headline, the the interesting thing is that under, I have to imagine, more scrutiny under higher stakes, under, the I don't know, what whatever you want to call it, it's been escalated.
00:34:03
Speaker
They still found in favor of your argument. that That's the headline now, isn't it? Yes, and and huge. Again, obviously huge for us and the on the movement and also obviously very exciting for us and yeah all the people that want this legalized, the people that are doing it in the shadows, which you know we have to stand back and say, well, we don't support You're breaking the law.
00:34:28
Speaker
But there are also a lot of people... myself included, that, because um I know I'd be the first one that want to knock on the door, um that don't do it specifically for that reason.
00:34:40
Speaker
Now in Texas, we have the ability to purchase a distilling permit. ah we actually My wife and I have talked about doing that. to you We'd have the Texas permit, we can get our TTB permit, and we would be able to produce legally, but I won't do it illegally at this point.
Grassroots efforts in Texas and state law changes
00:34:59
Speaker
um And there are a lot of people that we get that are in that same situation, that especially the homebrewers. Homebrewing is a big community. Yeah. Because it's right there. They already know how to take starch or carbohydrates and turn it into sugar. They already know how to ferment it.
00:35:18
Speaker
one like One more step or two more steps, I guess, distillation and maturation and you've got whiskey, let alone the whole, oh, hey, I made something and it didn't quite turn out the way I want it. That's really appealing. Yeah. just still ah for Sorry, brewers, for meadmakers, for winemakers.
00:35:37
Speaker
That's really appealing. ah Yeah, they're right there. But I agree. They're so used to having their hobby... legally protected, I guess you would say.
00:35:48
Speaker
um And rightly so. They don't want to jump over into the illegal territory and threaten everything about their life. Right. But they know it's there and they would love to do it. So yeah, there's a huge demographic demographic of people um that we could bring into the brain trust of distilling, essentially, and the way I think about it.
00:36:06
Speaker
um Yeah. Oh, it's close. It's tangible now. An unhopped malt or an unhopped beer, distill it, you've got a whiskey. I mean, it's that you know for coming through voka and And as you found in New Zealand, when it legalized, the... yeah the distilleries, they found that the sky didn't fall.
00:36:29
Speaker
ah We actually found that your revenues actually went up slightly. And i I'm guessing it's because people would go out and and buy something and then try and replicate it. And it's because of the science project. It's not, hey, let me copy it so I don't have to buy it.
00:36:45
Speaker
When you consider cost of all your ingredients, the cost the capital cost of your equipment, people aren't doing this you know to to save a buck. They're doing it for the hobby, the science experiment that you get every time.
00:37:00
Speaker
i I completely agree. And I feel like I'm in a uniquely weird position to confirm that a little bit.
00:37:12
Speaker
So for starters, personally, part of the reason that I got into distilling was I wanted... I always liked the idea of cocktails. I like, I come from spending way too much time in the kitchen professionally and as the, you know, the family chef and,
00:37:32
Speaker
So the idea of being able to mix flavors together on the fly to create a drink, awesome. Love it. What I don't love is the step one for every cocktail is go to the bottle store and spend $400 if you don't have the six alcohols you need.
00:37:47
Speaker
So that's partially what I got into it. After I got into distilling, my tastes changed a little bit and moved much more towards distilling um single malt, bourbon, rum, anything that's been aged, and then anything that's kind of out there, mezcal, absinthe, so on and so forth.
00:38:06
Speaker
And exactly like you said, when i see um when I see something on the horizon, oh, single malt, that looks interesting.
00:38:18
Speaker
I don't just go out and start trying to make single malt. I don't know what it's supposed to taste like. Step one is to go out and over a year buy 15 different delicious single malt bottles as a flavor library. yeah you know And I've done that for every single category of spirits. And that is an ungodly amount of tax that I've sent to the government that I wouldn't have done before. Because before what I would have been doing is just buying a bottle of whatever I could get cheapest. you know So there's that. I think there's also, I've got to be very careful about what I say here. Um, cause I don't want to essentially dox people, but I get people getting in touch with me from different walks of life.
00:39:04
Speaker
Um, And to be fair, we very carefully curated the people that we talk to on the channel. So for us, it's very much like you say about the craft. It's about the science experiment. It's about the flavor. It's not about making stuff for cheap to make a buck or to get drunk easy.
00:39:23
Speaker
But um we have people that follow along with the channel, let's say from damn near every walk of life.
00:39:36
Speaker
in New Zealand and America and Australia. And that goes from professional chefs that'll get in touch and say, Hey, did you know that you tried to do this, but you screwed up, do this instead. Awesome. Thank you, sir.
00:39:48
Speaker
We've got ah lawyers, accountants that'll get in touch and say, Oh, by the way, did you know that you could fire up a spreadsheet and get this result to help you? Awesome. Thank you, sir.
00:40:00
Speaker
We have engineers from... a very large entity in America that just had headlines recently involving the moon. but so what I'm saying is that it's not a group of delinquents running moonshine. It's a group of scientists and geeks using pre-existing knowledge they have from other career paths that to put into distilling to make distilling better. And right I think that's absolutely freaking beautiful. And it's the beautiful part about distilling is that no matter what you do, no matter what experience you have, that will make you a better distiller. If you're a plumber, awesome dude, you can make kick-ass still yourself. You know, like it really doesn't matter what you have expertise beforehand. You can use that as geekery for distilling.
00:40:59
Speaker
And there's still the stigma about banjos and overalls, right? Yeah. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I know people that lean into that stereotype stereotype hard, but they're bringing something geeky and delicious and amazing to distilling as well.
00:41:18
Speaker
um Sorry, I've gone on a rant. Sorry. It's come a long way since the gallon jugs in the back of someone's car, you know, I run in the cots. This is not the same person that, that is doing it now.
00:41:32
Speaker
Uh, and to be clear, that's not what I think either of us are advocating for, right? Like we're not, and I think in a strange way, the status quo at the moment almost protects the illegal revenue of alcohol more than anything else.
00:41:51
Speaker
Yeah. it's It does because it there are still places where people are still running shine apparently. And in my opinion of it, some people are won't want to hear it but it's going to be generally on those on that side. If you're doing that, then it's a business.
00:42:11
Speaker
Then get permitted and run it as business. um What we're advocating for is that hobbyist, the the person, that that enthusiast that wants to tinker at home.
00:42:23
Speaker
Not the one that, you know, if they want to turn it into a business, we're all for that. and both hta And at and at Brewhouse, we will help guide people that direction to help them actually set up legally as a commercial distillery.
00:42:39
Speaker
We supply several small distilleries that started out in the shadows and have grown into a business. ah A good number of craft distilleries started that way.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yeah. I have yet, ah once again, I should be careful, but a lot of professional distillers that I've talked to will either openly or after the camera's off say exactly that. It's like, dude, what do you think? Do you think I was just going to drop a million bucks to set up a distillery and I've got no idea how to do it Yeah. Give it a shot.
00:43:13
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Okay, cool. So i do want to get into where this conversation is going for sure, but um it's probably worth just making sure we've wrapped up the what's actually happened side of things.
Clarifying federal vs. state laws in home distillation
00:43:28
Speaker
um Is there anything else we need to talk about on that side of things? So the fifth circuit essentially defended your initial position.
00:43:39
Speaker
if There's something I'm not understanding there. um And then I guess the next step is what's the next step? What happens now?
00:43:49
Speaker
it's It's back again, just ah just like it was after the district ah district course decision. It's in the government's hands as to whether they will just say, okay, yeah it is what it is, or they decide that they're going to... it's It's not officially appealed. We call it appeal to the Supreme Court, but it's a writ of cert. I'm not going to try to pronounce the hey we word for it. But they can it essentially request the the Supreme Court to take it up.
00:44:21
Speaker
So if they decide to pursue it further, it goes to the Supreme Court. Okay. And if they don't, what does that mean for all of America or just part of America?
00:44:36
Speaker
It would be my understanding is if you are in the area covered by the Fifth Circuit, then you're covered under that. Or if you are a member of the Hobby Distillers Association, because the Hobby Distillers Association was a plaintiff that won in this.
00:44:53
Speaker
So as a member of that, you are part of that plaintiff. We actually had one today. An email this morning from customer that they were refused their permit.
00:45:06
Speaker
ah Had us give them their membership certificate, sent that over the TTB, and then it got approved. They just got their permit in today. so Wow. Okay. So this is not fair anymore. It's it's you know that's happening. We had several that have. We actually had one contact us this morning ah saying, hey, great news. I got my got my permit today. um yeah Thanks. you Getting the certificate from you is what yeah got it got it pushed. so they the TTB is very much adhering to what the law is.
00:45:38
Speaker
um If you are in yeah Washington, we'll say, if you're not a member of the the HDA and you apply for your permit out of the house, it's going to be flatly refused.
00:45:51
Speaker
You come back to them with the certificate showing that you're a member of the HDA and they are honoring that and giving you the permit. Again, providing you meet the other requirements, but um that that portion gets lifted then. so Okay. So this is a fundamental fundamental misunderstanding on my part. I thought that you had to be both in the Fifth Circuit jurisdiction area, whatever you want to call it, and an HDA member.
00:46:20
Speaker
But you just need to be one of those two things. So you can be in the Fifth Circuit and not HDA, or you can be HDA in California. yeah Now, I have not heard of anybody in the Fifth Circuit getting getting theirs through, but like that might just be we haven't heard. That is the way it has been explained to me. But we definitely know that if you're a member of the HDA anywhere, ah that they will honor that because we have to remember this is a federal ah
00:46:50
Speaker
yeah die We sued the federal government on the constitutional. So by winning, we've won it federally. We've won it in the federal court. Okay. Okay. so thats and state's The state's rules. The state's rules are the state's rules.
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So let's just... Take a little step back here. I've got a very simple question for you because I keep hearing this. Is distilling now legal in America? Home distilling?
00:47:21
Speaker
Home distilling? No. And that's why i say even some of the media are saying, hey, we're on the verge of legal home distilling. I guess it's yes and no. if If your state allows it and you get the permit from the TTB, then yes, you can distill legally at home. There's no requirement to sell it.
00:47:40
Speaker
on you know on ah f As far as the feds are concerned, once you've you've produced it and you've paid your excise tax, they don't care what you do they You pour it down the drain. They got their taxes. That's all that this is about is the taxes.
00:47:54
Speaker
And that was the argument to the to the judge in the first place, wasn't it? was like, if that's actually what you care about, then care about that. Yeah. wo you If I'm willing to to give you the tax on on what I'm going to produce, then it shouldn't matter where I produce that.
00:48:10
Speaker
Yeah. How can you say no and then tell me I can't do it because we've got to protect tax? and you're like, but here's, I want to pay you. Yeah, going to give you the tax. And it's not important. Most people, again, this isn't a perfect solution to what we want, but it is a solution. It does give people that path. They are able to actually do this.
00:48:32
Speaker
And, yeah, Most of the people that I know and talk to, again, it's not about saving money on on your alcohol. The cost is currently, believe, $13.50 per proof gallon is the excise tax. So on a bottle of vodka, we'll say at 40%, 80 proof, it works out to just slightly over $2. think it's $2.16. $2 to not over my shoulder?
00:49:03
Speaker
And $2 when I've got $1,000 worth of equipment and um you know I've got already $10 worth of of ingredients in that bottle because I want to make something really good. So great, now costs me $12 instead. yeah Is that going to make me go, no, I'm going to do it illegally or not do it at all?
00:49:24
Speaker
No. For most, you'll pay that $2. So do... so i do I personally, I completely agree with you that that's where I'm at. And if, and if the laws changed in New Zealand, that's a hundred percent what I would do regardless of whether or not I had a YouTube channel, you know, like for me right now, I have to be doubly careful because my entire, like the way I pay the mortgage and put food on the table is by doing this. So I'm going to be real careful not to get in trouble, you know, otherwise everything goes away.
00:49:55
Speaker
But even if I was just doing it for a hobby, That would be the way I think about it as well. And I do have to... I do have some compassion, some understanding for people that are like, you know what, dude? This rule is dumb. This is stupid. The government shouldn't be able to tell me what to do and I'm going to do it anyway. Like...
00:50:17
Speaker
That's not my recommendation. That's not how I think we get change, but I do have to be a little bit sympathetic there.
00:50:29
Speaker
I can understand why you would decide to do that. Okay. So let's just kind of in plain English say exactly what the process is.
00:50:40
Speaker
and what rules have changed because of this. And I think, I think we've covered most of it, right? um Yeah. first ni is Distilling at home is now not magically legal. Take it from this. But if you get your permit from the TTB, and that does give you that pathway. Yes, you're going to have to file once a year um because, again, as extremely small producers, the way... And I think it's...
00:51:12
Speaker
Don't quote me because the again, some of these numbers, I've had so many things we've looked at. I believe it's if you owe less than $1,000 in excise tax per year. So at $1,350 per proof gallon, that's a lot of proof gallons to build you to $1,000. So we're going to say arguments that you owed $100.
00:51:30
Speaker
Because of the amount, they don't want you filing this monthly or quarterly. That's a lot of extra paperwork for them as well. So you just file once year. And also because of that low volume, you don't have to have a bond.
00:51:43
Speaker
So you don't have to a bond. That's huge. You've got paperwork once a year and you you file it, you send your payment. And so once you get that permit, it's not going to be a huge, huge strain on a person to be able to do this. So you get your permit, you still have to have specific locks because it is a distilled spurt a spirits plant. It's going to be, you have to have specific locks on the on the yeah the the room that you're doing so that it essentially secures the distillery.
00:52:19
Speaker
um These are all things that are for anybody, any commercial distillery. The other thing is because they're considering it a business, if this is a business type permit, a person does have to have it under a business. And that can just be you've gotten ah a DBA.
00:52:37
Speaker
um It doesn't have to be anything major. You don't have to you know you out start an LLC or anything like that. But you would have to have it under a company. Again, it doesn't have to be a ah huge um sticking point that makes it difficult for somebody. But these are the us s process. That would be the process.
00:52:58
Speaker
Once you've got that the TTV permit, again, if you're in a state where home distilling is legal, you can go ahead and set up and start going. If you're in a state where home distilling isn't legal...
00:53:11
Speaker
Is it now that you can still do it because you have the permit and it's technically a business, even though the business is making zero dollars of profit? Or do you have to have both? You have to have the permit and a state where it's legal.
00:53:24
Speaker
ah Either a state where legal or a permit from that state. okay so In Texas, because we fell short on time, we got through the House. It did not get through the Senate, the the the Texas Senate.
00:53:38
Speaker
So the the bill didn't pass. And it it was overwhelmingly... the ba But it didn't just it ran at a time. ah Most states run for six months in the in every two years. So it's tough to get things through very quickly. yeah So we would have to purchase the the permit in Texas to be able to do this legally.
00:54:04
Speaker
And it's available to you, yeah but it would mean an additional step. So that is, again, why I say you know the HDA, even the government at this point – they're not going to, but even if the government at this point threw up their hands and said, fine, have it your way, change the law and made it legal federally, the HDA still has – approximately 40 states that we need to to go after and get it changed. And we want to do it. it
00:54:35
Speaker
We're trying to do anything um nefarious. you know When we started this, we got onto a bill, we spoke to the TTB, we did not try to do anything out yeah by sliding it through. tried to do everything above board and and do it right. And we'll do the same thing at the state level, do this correctly. Basically the same steps that many Many people watching this probably don weren't around or yeah know are there yeah and taking their first steps when homebrewing got legalized in the U.S., but they had to go through pretty much the same thing, not yeah suing the government part. but
00:55:13
Speaker
federal um get the federal laws changed and then get each state law changed. So we we've got work in it. Yeah, cool. So I guess the summary could be personal home distilling is still pretty much illegal for the most part in the USA.
00:55:32
Speaker
But home distilling with a permit under a business is now... for now, attainable.
Supporting HDA: Financial and volunteer needs
00:55:44
Speaker
Yes. The next big question is people are going to ask how do they do this, right? And I have to imagine the best way to go about it is number one, join the damn HDA.
00:55:56
Speaker
but And then number two, i would imagine that you have like a documentation pack, a like a too long didn't read. These are the steps you need to do. so if they if someone joins the HDA and gets in touch with you, i'm going to assume you've got something that you can send to them to at least start the process. Yeah.
00:56:16
Speaker
Yeah, um we actually back, we we had our distilled spirits plant permit at at the warehouse under Brewhouse a few years back with COVID ah because people were constantly contacting us, not people, but businesses trying to get alcohol and hand sanitizer.
00:56:32
Speaker
And but back then, the TTB was, anybody that was willing to, they were, you know, hey can you can you complete this form so that we can license you because they wanted The hand sanitizer. yeah um So we've been through the process for a DSP.
00:56:50
Speaker
So yes, um you know having been through those steps, we can supply kind of what we, the steps that we did, plus with this, we've been a little bit lax on getting the website you fully yeah fully updated. But now we're yeah getting getting someone hired to just get that taken care of so that a lot more of that information, you know way back we had yeah what each state's laws were. There are states where it's legal, there are states where it's illegal, and then you've got the tweeners, you've got the states that follow whatever the federal law is. There's not a specific law for or against it on the state level.
00:57:31
Speaker
So whatever is allowed at federal, that's what they go with. And we used to have all of those listed, but yeah again, it's been a number of years since we've done this, several have changed. So we've got to get all that recompiled so that again, people can just go to the website and say, what where does my state land?
00:57:49
Speaker
That brings up another whole thing. Obviously, all of this work that you're doing is absolutely amazing. And I definitely want to get into why it's amazing and and ah hopes, dreams, aspirations for the future and what that could mean for individuals, for craft distilling, everything.
00:58:09
Speaker
um But it isn't cheap to do this. like No. ah So... What are your, what are your needs? What are you, what are the, the, the things you need resources for? And then how can people help you at the moment? Like what, what, if people believe in this, if they want you to keep doing this amazing work, how do they support you?
00:58:39
Speaker
Two ways. One, obviously become a member of the hobby distillers association because the funds are, again, it's, yep. getting all the information, getting that all put onto the website. yeah There are times where there are costs involved with going and meeting with representatives and trying to get you know them on board, their travel.
00:59:04
Speaker
We're not using it to gallivant globe. but there we do you know We've had to go to Austin, we've had to go to Washington to meet with representatives and all that stuff.
00:59:14
Speaker
it It costs money. um The other thing that people can do to help is you reach out to us. We want to hit states. And as I mentioned, most states, the yeah the state only runs for six months after the election.
00:59:30
Speaker
ah They usually have our elections usually November. They usually start around the first week or two of January. They run for six months and that's it. So if we want to get the laws changed in multiple states, we need people that can help people people out on the ground.
00:59:50
Speaker
One. I can't go into, we'll say, Louisiana next door and meet with representatives there because I'm not a constituent. We need people can meet with their representatives to say, hey, you know we want to see this law changed.
01:00:04
Speaker
Here's why. And we have pacts that we can also help people with on that, saying, here's what our current law is. And yeah here's what we'd like to see. That's what we had to do here in Texas. My wife and I met on personal basis with our representative and ah he actually was was fantastic. He did take it up and that's how we ended up with a bill and almost getting the law changed in Texas last year.
01:00:32
Speaker
And when I say we ran out of time, the first time that a bill is introduced, there are a lot first timer things that have to get done. What does this do with the budget and all these different these different things?
01:00:46
Speaker
So by the time it finally got to committee and the committee said, yes, this should go to the floor, um it got through, but it left us with, I think it was three, four weeks is all that was left to try and then get it through the Senate committee and the Senate floor.
01:01:02
Speaker
And it just ran out of time. ah So we need to have people that are there in the different states pushing this. And again, you know if they're meeting, we're able to go in and meet with them So there again, we've got travel and I will gladly be bouncing around to try and help get this done in different states.
01:01:23
Speaker
But i can't afford to be funding it. So bouncing all these states. We want to see that happen and we don't want to do it just one state at a time because ah that that rate, we're going to be 60 years to get it done.
01:01:38
Speaker
Literally. Yeah. So I have, I have to imagine too, that you want people to help. You want people to like contact their, their, correct path in their state, but also you kind of want this to be a curated, organized effort. It doesn't help if someone hears this podcast and just goes, Oh, I'm going to go talk to blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it's not a bad thing, but it's not, it's not bringing this together into a united cause. Right. So when,
01:02:13
Speaker
Would you, it a pain in the ass for you if people start emailing you and say, Hey, I want to help. Who do I contact? Is that like, what, what is the easiest way for you to help kind of marshal the troops nationwide? I guess is what I'm asking.
01:02:27
Speaker
if if ah If it starts getting to be you know kind of out of hand to what we can handle, we would probably and i hire somebody to help with, with specifically that with answering those emails and being able to say, hey here are the laws currently in your your state. Here's what you know we suggest can be changed the easiest way. That's what we did in Texas. is um they when I've given them a my suggestion on how the bill could could be set up to yeah to cover legalizing it here, the simplest path. Because
01:03:04
Speaker
I hate to say it, but bureaucrats like to make things more difficult. Yeah. yeah yeah My opinion. But so I tried to just make it a ah simple, simple path.
01:03:14
Speaker
And, you know, a representative tried to tack in a couple different directions and finally came back and and said, here, read this bill and and let us know if this, if you agree with this and we'll enter it And I looked at it and went,
01:03:28
Speaker
Well, yeah, I agree with it because that's what I gave you. So they ended up finding ah it was just the simplest way to do it. Yeah, got it. So we'll be able to help the individuals with that that's going here. going to your representative, here's a pack that you can just print and give to them.
01:03:43
Speaker
And a so if we need to get somebody that is able to you know be working, if it's just a few days a week to to handle that, if we if we can get that many... um people interested in contacting us, then that's wonderful. And and again, that's where the funding needs to be.
01:04:06
Speaker
Okay. So people should... sign up, they should become a member because A, it helps you. It puts dollars in the account to keep pushing this forward. And B, ah they essentially become a plaintiff at that point in time, right? Like, is it grandfathered? Is joining now, does that make you a plaintiff or did you have to be a member when this went through?
01:04:30
Speaker
and I don't know if there is a legal standing on this or not, but the TTB has not been questioning people on that. and and That could also in part be because they're they're short manpower, just like many government government agencies.
01:04:45
Speaker
They probably don't want to make it harder on than themselves than they have to. yeah Even if it is so yeah supposed to be requirement. and I'm guessing it's not because they have not asked that of anybody.
01:04:56
Speaker
um and they are and But they are handling it appropriately as far as if you're not a member, they're declining. If you are a member and you show it, they're approving. So I'm guessing that they're they know exactly what the rules are and they're sticking to them.
01:05:11
Speaker
And I don't knock them for that. that's That's what they're there for. I've never had an issue with them. um And when we've met with them, they've been yeah extremely accommodating. We've we've never been at each other's throats.
01:05:24
Speaker
you They knew even when we were just trying to get the lot changed, we we were going about it the right way and they appreciated that and they appreciated us meeting with them. So they treated us quite well. That's awesome. Yeah. So join the HDA.
01:05:38
Speaker
ah Reach out if you want help getting a permit. reach out if you think there's something that you can do to help the cause, either locally or if you have a skill set that maybe you could, whatever, donate some time to to help set up the the the the website or whatever
Media misinterpretations and public understanding
01:06:00
Speaker
it happens to be. If you want to do that, get in touch.
01:06:03
Speaker
And if it gets to the point where where you're inundated with far too many messages, it sounds like that's a good problem to have, not a bad problem to have. So let's let's change tact here just a little bit.
01:06:19
Speaker
We talked about this as kind of the first bite, the first little chip away at the foundation of the current status quo.
01:06:31
Speaker
What is your dream scenario or or why is this important in terms of what you can do in the future? like How does it lay a foundation for the HDA's argument on home distill distillation in America?
01:06:50
Speaker
I think, um again, although this is a different path from you know what we originally wanted and what you have there and where homebrewing and and that went where it just got total legalization, think by going this this route, if we yeah if either the government drops it or if it goes to the Supreme Court and we win, i think that that's going to signal enough interest and and where where that law stands that we can then, ah again, get back to meeting up with our Congress people and senators and, again, go after putting it on par with
01:07:37
Speaker
standard home brewing, home beer and winemaking, get us kind of under that same umbrella. The people that are doing it are mostly under that same umbrella. We like the activity to be under that same umbrella. So that's a good way to put it. Yeah.
01:07:51
Speaker
So it's a platform. it's ah it's ah It's a way to have the discussion. It's a way to actually give people that want to do this... A legal means to start doing it. And then because they're legal and they're doing it, now they can talk about it.
01:08:06
Speaker
And they can rap they can discuss why it's important. And the more people we have doing that. And and that's where this um this Fifth Circuit ruling was was so huge. is As you mentioned earlier, on the district a court, it was...
01:08:24
Speaker
There was some discussion, but again, it was mostly among the community that knew about it. yeah This is different. This is, you're gaining traction. And I've had people that have contacted me since going, Hey, did you hear this? Uh,
01:08:40
Speaker
Yeah, i heard about it right off the bat. That was me. Yeah. and And we've got some news outlets. you Last time we had a couple of small local places wanting to do an interview. Now we're getting some national news. Tomorrow we've actually got national TV news.
01:08:59
Speaker
Oh, really? In prime time. So it's... That stepped it up a lot. And that means that a lot of people that, just as you mentioned, a lot of people that aren't in our community are hearing about it now.
01:09:12
Speaker
And you're going to get those that are, you know again, ignorant to the the information. They don't know that it isn't so dangerous.
01:09:25
Speaker
And they're going be oh oh no, people are going to blow themselves up. ah But you're also going to have a lot of other people. you You get a lot that say, oh, it wasn't legal. They just think that because home brewing and home winemaking are that home distilling is. yeah And it's going to make ya people go, oh, well, that's not right.
01:09:42
Speaker
ah So I think getting the information up there is almost as big as as anything at this point. i would I would completely agree. Yeah, totally agree.
01:09:55
Speaker
All right. You've been extremely generous with your time. If you've got another couple of minutes, I just want to run through some quickfire questions. Is that good with you? Yeah, sure.
01:10:06
Speaker
Is there anything else you want to cover before we get to that though, Rick? I think we've done a pretty good job of explaining yeah how we got to where we are and you know why, hopefully for the people that are upset going, well, yeah I still have to get a permit. They they understand that um this was not the path we initially took,
01:10:26
Speaker
So that got, you know, the rug got pulled out from under us on that one. So we found another path that at least gives people a legal path to do this.
01:10:37
Speaker
It's not necessarily the the end goal. We're not going to stop at that. But at least you have a path at this point. Yeah, the front door got slammed on you. So you've snuck in the window.
01:10:49
Speaker
yeah pretty much I like it. I like it. I like that. um Okay. So quick fire questions. And for those listening to this, the the plan is for me to um be able to use Rick's way more intense knowledge, obviously of this, because you're way closer to it. You're part of it um to make a ah short video to get it up on the internet because and people are getting this wrong thing.
01:11:17
Speaker
in media already. And because my audience this speaks directly to them, it's not just, ah oh, that's interesting when you see it on Reddit and you don't do it. um I want to make sure that that our our audience understand
Innovation in home distilling and future prospects
01:11:29
Speaker
it properly. So A, they don't get themselves in trouble and B, so that can actually be part of the help, not not misunderstanding it. Sorry. problem Yeah. So with that being said, quickfire rounds, what are people getting wrong about this? What what are you seeing in terms of comments on Reddit, YouTube, whatever? What are you seeing people saying to you directly? And what are you seeing in media that's just plain wrong or just kind of misinformed?
01:12:04
Speaker
ah that this is actually opening up home distilling as yeah on a hobby site akin to homebrewing and home winemaking. And that's just not true.
01:12:18
Speaker
it influence yeahs I mean, this is ah is a huge step and there's a path forward, but it is not that yet. I guess let's just ah quickly state too what the current path to being able to do Distillation at home is legally for different sets of people.
01:12:38
Speaker
So if you are an HDA member in a state where it is technically still illegal, what options do you have? Because I think that's the worst case scenario for someone, isn't it?
01:12:52
Speaker
Yeah, um because if you're not an HDA member, you're being shut down. Right at the front. So if you're an HDA member, you've got your TTV permit.
01:13:04
Speaker
ah In a state that is illegal, then it varies, again, because it depends on exactly what is allowed within the state. In Texas, Texas. you can get the permit they don't care if it's going to be in residence all they care is they've gotten their know their money for the permit um Then it's going to come down to local, whether you're allowed to do this in your home or not, have have a business or this type of business located there. ah
01:13:35
Speaker
There are states where you know it's kind of in the middle, though. You know you can apply, you can actually get a permit. there's not even any cost and and you're allowed to. Other states where you can't even want to any type of distiller legally, even a water distiller without...
01:13:51
Speaker
um Because if it is capable of producing alcohol, which any distiller can, quality might vary, but it's capable, then there are places where that's not even allowed.
01:14:05
Speaker
So this there are varying varying possibilities. And just because you can get the permit from the TTB doesn't mean that owning a condenser is legal in that state? Yeah.
01:14:19
Speaker
Correct, yeah. it's going to be That's going to be based on what the state has decided. Yeah. And as we discussed with Missouri, they may not care. they just haven't gotten around to changing the law.
01:14:32
Speaker
There's where the problem comes in. They may turn a blind eye to it, but if there's a complaint, we had this, there was a story in California. guy and his wife split up.
01:14:44
Speaker
Immediately she reported it. It was all fine and good while he was making it for her. But as soon as they split up, well now, you know in that case, it was it was federal and they they then had to expand resources onto going after that that gentleman.
01:15:02
Speaker
um they don't I don't think they want to do that. They've got better things to do with the resources. And they they view it very much as to similar to beer and winemaking. It's, again, because it's just an extension of that.
01:15:15
Speaker
So in many cases, state and federal will kind of turn a blind eye, but you're still set up for big risk because you you are breaking the law and it is a felony. and And it's kind of the the tail light analogy too, right? If you're in a family car with your family in the car driving down the main street at 12 o'clock in the afternoon, ah driving the speed like speed limit using your indicators, no one really cares that tail light's out.
01:15:43
Speaker
ah But if it's 2 o'clock in the morning, you're going 50 over the speed limit with your lights off, they're damn sure going to use the tail lights to throw everything they can at you in addition to everything else. Right? So right ah why, why is the media interest so much stronger this time?
01:16:03
Speaker
They are saying now, this is, i know it's a yeah a law on distilling, but they're now, the media is starting to consider this as as bigger than it is.
01:16:19
Speaker
now becoming a about how far the government can reach. how What can they and can they not control? And regardless of which side of the fence you sit on on that, um by doing that, this is no longer just whether you can distill or not. It's it's about how far the government can go in regulating what you can do in your home.
01:16:41
Speaker
Interesting. The core, the the land of the free. It's all about that. Okay. Okay. I like it. This is, this is the last question I've got for you.
01:16:51
Speaker
And I left this to last because I'll let you, I'll let you riff on that as much on this, as much as you want. And this is something that's really dear to my heart. Why, why is the right to home distill and,
01:17:07
Speaker
importance for the industry of distillation, especially at a craft level? Many commercial distilleries start out by people doing this at home illegally.
01:17:22
Speaker
and And again, I'm not saying that I am supporting that That's not what we are after. um But for many of them, as you said, you you're not going to go out and spend, you know, yes hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to start up a distillery having never practiced the craft, having never honed your skills.
01:17:43
Speaker
um You're not going to go and and start a mechanics shop and wing it and hope you're able to fix cars. People do this at home. And I think in many cases, they may not even be considering turning it into a business until friends and family members are tasting it and going, this is good.
01:18:05
Speaker
And, you know, for a lot of us, you do that, you know, the chest pumps up because you're proud of what you made. Yeah. But then it starts making people, you know, certain people think, you know what, maybe I can do this as a business. And they turn it into a legal enterprise. um I have one that I had some of his last night. I won't i won't even see say who it is, he's a legal distiller. He has been for pushing two decades.
01:18:38
Speaker
um But he started with us, not as a legal distillery, for the first couple of years. And turned it into a legal enterprise. And he has grown, he's won tons of awards. He has a thing fantastic, fantastic cast strength bourbon, um just phenomenal.
01:19:03
Speaker
Trust me, he's put a lot of money into the into the federal coffers in taxes. yeah It started out, you know again, behind closed doors.
01:19:14
Speaker
A lot of people, that's that's how it happens. so And it was the same when the home brewing got got legalized. You saw a huge explosion in the number of of craft just craft breweries opening because people were making such a good product, they decided to turn it into a business.
01:19:34
Speaker
Totally. And not only that... yeah enter I mean this in an endearing positive way, but you have the madman effect.
01:19:45
Speaker
And what I mean by that is when you're a commercial distillery entrenched in not, at the very least, not losing money, right? Like you still have a passion for making good stuff and you you want to do something new, but at the end of the day, it's the way you pay your mortgage and feed your family.
01:20:03
Speaker
There's limitations on how crazy you can get. when you're a just a ah person doing it and you're shared for funsies, if you've a crazy idea, you can spend a hundred dollars on ingredients in one bottle if you want to.
01:20:20
Speaker
and see what happens. And in my opinion, that's why we have hazy IPAs, why we have IPAs that are different now. The commercial beer world thought the idea of putting that much expensive hops into a beer before California's craft movement came along and home brewing movement came along, that was mad. You'd have to be a madman to make a beer like that. So why even consider it?
01:20:48
Speaker
And then homebrewers came along and they're like, i like this hop stuff. How about we put 15 times as much know into this beer? How about we try doing all sorts of crazy different ways of getting hops into this beer? And exactly like you said, people started saying, you know what, dude, this is this is really good.
01:21:07
Speaker
Like maybe you should think about starting to make this. Lo and behold, There is an industry born. That makes a whole lot of tax for the government.
01:21:17
Speaker
And if you want to go down the Puritan route of, oh, alcohol evil, it means more tax dollars per person drunkness levels because you've increased the value, right? Like you're not you're not just selling it to get drunk at a cheap profit, ah at a cheap price point. You've turned it into something that is more like wine, which is generally the most accepted type of alcohol on government standards worldwide.
01:21:46
Speaker
That's where you see tax breaks because, oh, it's a craft. it's ah It's an art form. We should celebrate this as opposed to vodka, which is, I don't know if you know, Rick, but it's obviously evil.
01:21:58
Speaker
um yes So I, yeah, I, I completely agree with you. I think that allowing
01:22:08
Speaker
creative people with a different backseat of knowledge to get into there's distilling world and share that knowledge kind of in the brain trust, it just explodes all of it.
01:22:19
Speaker
Yeah. The innovation is starting at the you know the home level and the craft level. You don't see the innovation it and and ah and in an anhyzer bush. I'm not knocking them.
01:22:30
Speaker
No, they do a great job. i mean they need they need to yeah They stick to that and then they just turn around and buy up the little craft guy that has tried some weird things that really worked out and and they just yeah they'll buy them up and they'll have that division. that but They're not the ones that are innovating. It's the little one at home or in small batch craft that that can do that.
01:22:55
Speaker
100%. Yeah. yeah All right. Thank you, Rick. I think that's a beautiful place to leave this. um Can you give us a direct plug for exactly where people should find the HDA and exactly how they would but how they would sign up?
01:23:13
Speaker
It's just very simple. Hobbydistillersassociation.com Nothing too cryptic. And and you know they can sign up right on the page.
01:23:23
Speaker
There's a donate button or that you can sign up as monthly or, or yearly. Uh, so there's a membership page. Very simple You're awesome, man. Thank you so much for your time.
01:23:35
Speaker
Um, this has been very educational for me and also cautiously optimistic. Like actually after talking to you, I feel like the chances of real change happening like in our lifetime,
01:23:52
Speaker
is ah is actually better than I had hoped before it's talking to you. So that that's pretty exciting. How do you... Passing thoughts to leave us with. What are the chances of something real happening and meaningful for people kind of nationwide in America? And what what's the timeline that might be possible there?
01:24:12
Speaker
I think something already meaningful has has happened. This is far the only thing we've ever had on it. ah We just, of course, want it to stick, whether that's the government not opposing or going to the Supreme Court and passing.
01:24:28
Speaker
My thoughts on chances of it. Boy, it's it's so hard to say. I mean, the the courts, you just never know. um The Supreme Court in in the past few years has not been keen on a lot of government overreach, but then it depends on exactly how they they view this. They also aren't keen on seeing something that longstanding suddenly get pulled out. So it's hard to say.
01:24:59
Speaker
and time-wise, well, we know... if If it's going to be appealed, it's got to be within 90 days. And at that point, I don't know how how long it would take before the Supreme Court would take it up or or come down with a judgment on it.
01:25:15
Speaker
ah So we'll have to we'll just have to wait and see. But I think that we've gotten enough momentum, hopefully, that if it goes the wrong direction, that people still want to support this. And and if they do, we're going to be fighting to – this won't be – we wouldn't have it be the last hurrah.
01:25:33
Speaker
We would continue pushing at this. we We're seeing um enough support that people want this done. That's awesome, Rick. Keep fighting the good fight, mate.
01:25:45
Speaker
We appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thank you very much for the time.