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Making India Vokal | Aprameya Radhakrishna @ Koo/Vokal
119 Plays4 years ago
We all have that one habit which we’ve developed as kids & that’s still stuck with us even as adults.
Aprameya Radhakrishna, our guest today, recalls that his childhood habit that stayed with him is observing things around him. A habit which helps him a lot today as an entrepreneur to understand things like consumer behaviour and much more.
A habit we think made him take notice of the nationwide ban on all Chinese apps & a trend towards building desi apps that truly embrace the made in India motto.
Having worked for over 5 years in the corporate scene before moving on to being a serial entrepreneur & investor Aprameya is now the Co-founder and CEO of Koo - a microblogging platform for vernacular speakers of India.
He is making sure that everyone in India is able to make their voice heard.
Talk about going Vocal for Local!
Tune in as we take you through Aprameya’s exciting journey & listen to him as he shares pearls of wisdom on starting and scaling businesses.
For more such inspiring & intriguing leadership stories visit our website at www.thepodium.in
We are also on Instagram at @thepodium.in and have a Whats app community of fellow entrepreneurs & startup enthusiasts at www.podm.in/growwithpodium
Join us there to stay updated on the latest from The Podium.in
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:06
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You are listening to an HD Smartcast Original.
00:00:10
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One minute, let's do the radio.
00:00:13
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Let's do this.
00:00:14
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This could be a great intro.
00:00:23
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Hi, I'm Akshay.
00:00:25
Speaker
Hi, this is Saurabh.
00:00:26
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And you are listening to the Founder Thesis Podcast.
00:00:29
Speaker
We meet some of the most celebrated startup founders in the country.
00:00:32
Speaker
And we want to learn how to build a unicorn.
00:00:37
Speaker
I am the guy who will find hacks for everything, right?
00:00:41
Speaker
You know, there is a set formula to crack an exam, but there is probably an easier way to crack the same exam, right?
00:00:48
Speaker
So I'll tell you one of my instances, not from engineering from B school though, right?
00:00:53
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So there was this one exam where it was a multiple choice question exam, right?
00:00:57
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So...
00:00:58
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everybody was, you know, looking at older papers, trying to figure out what are the answers.
00:01:02
Speaker
And it was an extremely complicated economic exam, right?
00:01:06
Speaker
And there was no way I would get my head around it by studying so much, right?
00:01:10
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And because it was a multiple choice paper, right?
00:01:13
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I also went through all the old question papers, right?
00:01:17
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But I was... So the professor has been the same for that subject for a long, long time, right?
00:01:22
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So I basically went through and saw...
00:01:24
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where are most of the answers?
00:01:26
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Is it A, B, C or D?
00:01:27
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So, and observed the pattern and went and said, I will mark the whole answer paper.
00:01:33
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There is a high probability of it being between B and C. So, I will, I will take a, you know, bet on how many Bs, how many Cs.
00:01:41
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I won't even mark A and D, right?
00:01:43
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Right.
00:01:43
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And actually ended up with a B- or some grade like that, beating so many of the others who basically sat in cram.
00:01:51
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So this was one example of, okay, this is not what I do always, but my mind will figure out the easiest, shortest path to achieve anything.
Meet Aparameya Radhakrishna
00:02:01
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With 26 official languages, there is no doubt that India is a country with extensive diversity.
00:02:08
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Not just languages, but even dialects within each state differ from city to city.
00:02:13
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Obviously, the social media in a country like this will have its own formula.
00:02:17
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And our guest today, Aparameya, took this up as a challenge to create Vokal and Koo, the voice of India in Indian languages.
00:02:26
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Aparameya Radhakrishna, a shy kid growing up in a middle-class family, completed his electronics engineering degree from NIT Suratkal and has worked with Infosys after which
00:02:37
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He pursued his MBA at IIM Ahmedabad.
00:02:41
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He is a serial entrepreneur and is best known for his previous venture, Taxi for Shaw.
00:02:46
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His current venture, Koo, may end up leaving a tremendous mark on the Indian social media ecosystem by empowering millions to use social media in their native language.
Early Career and Entrepreneurial Sparks
00:02:57
Speaker
Here is our premier talking about his stint at Jones Lang La Salle.
00:03:01
Speaker
and his ventures after it.
00:03:03
Speaker
I did a summer internship with Jones Lang LaSalle.
00:03:06
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So the same company offered me a job for my final placements as well, I accepted that.
00:03:12
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So there as well, you know, there were a lot of consulting companies, iBank, which were in demand.
00:03:19
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So I chose the one company which nobody ever knew about.
00:03:23
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It's a real estate consulting company and they were hiring for a business development role.
00:03:28
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So I just thought, you know,
00:03:30
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I'd want to tread a path that is less known, where I can pave my own path rather than getting into a known consultancy firm where, again, you know your path, right?
00:03:41
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So I didn't want to get into another path where everything is written for you, right?
00:03:46
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And hence chose Jones Langasal, which was hiring from IIM Ahmedabad for the first time or IIMs for the first time.
00:03:51
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So there was a lot more opportunity to, you know, contribute in a big way in a company that has never been exposed to IIM guys before.
00:04:00
Speaker
okay so why did they feel that you would fit into a sales role i mean considering that you've not done any sales ever and and and why did you want to do a sales role so it was a combination of a sales role and setting up a new business so you know they wanted to set up a hotel vertical and they had the experienced uh person already uh manish was his name so he he was managing the single single project still then right he was managing hotel so
00:04:29
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And they chose him to expand the hotel business within Jones Bangalore.
00:04:34
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So what do you mean by hotel business?
00:04:36
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Like just define the business.
00:04:38
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Like what does it mean?
00:04:39
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So this vertical was all about project management.
00:04:42
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So if a real estate developer ties up with Marriott and they want to construct a new hotel in Bangalore, let's say.
00:04:49
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they would need project management service, right?
00:04:52
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They would need somebody to consult them to go about building this whole hotel, right?
00:04:58
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Coordinating between the architect, the contractors, you know, all of that.
00:05:02
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And they need skilled white-collared resources to be able to manage the timelines and budget while executing this project, right?
00:05:12
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So,
00:05:12
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So that vertical was booming.
00:05:14
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Now all the hotels that we see were constructed in the last decade or so.
00:05:18
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Right.
00:05:19
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So that was that was identified as a booming sector and basically went and met quite a few real estate developers and understood how the business heads run within the companies.
00:05:31
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So started exposing me to real, real live businesses, right?
00:05:36
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I was meeting developers who had started from zero.
00:05:40
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I also met developers who basically were developers because their whole family was in real estate development.
00:05:48
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So I started getting exposed to all kinds of journeys, right?
00:05:51
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And, you know, started thinking about how it would be if I started my own company with all the examples of people starting from zero and making it big.
00:06:00
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It was extremely inspiring to know those stories.
00:06:03
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And
00:06:04
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And because of my joining Jones Lang LaSalle, that was possible.
00:06:07
Speaker
Why did I do a sales role?
00:06:09
Speaker
As I was saying, it was a combination of setting up a new business vertical with Manish and getting new business, right?
00:06:17
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So it was business strategy plus...
00:06:20
Speaker
executing getting those projects manish of course knew how to execute those projects so that was the kind of role that that i was hired in and it it was very successful like we got we got from one hotel project that we were managing we went to 20 hotel projects in two years
00:06:35
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Okay.
00:06:36
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How did you navigate the sales process?
00:06:39
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Like what did you learn about doing sales?
00:06:41
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You know, some aspects of my personality helps in sales, which is me being straightforward and honest.
00:06:47
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I'm not there to, you know, go and somehow make money off it.
00:06:52
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I'm very honest to whether I've added value to your life or business, right?
00:06:57
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And when you believe that, it shows when you're interacting with a person, right?
00:07:01
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So the trust that is required for a person to believe that this service provider will actually think of my interest and deliver whatever he's promising, I think that aspect was very strong, right?
00:07:13
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So for me to, so the challenge was identifying who are all constructing hotels, who's the owner, getting an appointment, going and meeting them.
00:07:21
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But once you meet them, you know,
00:07:22
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To be able to get your foot in the door and then convincing them was not a problem.
00:07:27
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It finally came down to, okay, what price are you quoting versus somebody
Birth of Taxi for Sure
00:07:31
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else?
00:07:32
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But being able to influence even that and saying, what's long-term beneficial?
00:07:36
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This guy is constructing 10 projects.
00:07:38
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right in the in the next five years so you know it's fine if we don't make money off the first two right but we will we will be able to get a long-term relationship right so those those kind of thought which never existed i was introducing into the company right uh
00:07:54
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So I think it was a combination of, you know, great relationships, the hustle, the fresh energy that I was bringing into the whole process of getting new clients and business strategy on what to say to who and how to get what is the overall importance of that project to the company.
00:08:11
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So I think all of that put together, you know, is what made me successful in that strength.
00:08:16
Speaker
And the JLL brand would have helped to get you in front of them, like in terms of open the doors for the initial meeting?
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:25
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While the hard work of contacting the person was done by me, because these were all fresh, some of them were new developers who just wanted to construct one hotel, right?
00:08:34
Speaker
But the brand of Jones Lang LaSalle definitely helped get the first meet, yes.
00:08:39
Speaker
So tell me about Raghu.
00:08:40
Speaker
When did you meet him?
00:08:41
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So me and Raghu are batchmates from engineering.
00:08:45
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And he was also one year senior to me in IIM Ahmedabad in the same dorm.
00:08:50
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So we've had our common stints at engineering and B school, overlap of one year at B school.
00:08:55
Speaker
But I mean, like, you know, when you started off Taxi for Shore with him, like, how did you end up spending enough time with him to form a thesis about Taxi for Shore?
00:09:04
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Or how did that idea originate?
00:09:07
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So I was going through a phase while working at Jones Lang Nassar.
00:09:11
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That whole phase was about, okay, I'm giving 14, 16 hours a day and I'm trying to innovate and move fast.
00:09:18
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But a corporate structure will always limit the amount of innovation that you can bring in and the pace at which you can move.
00:09:24
Speaker
right?
00:09:25
Speaker
And also, I didn't see myself, you know, in the business development role for too long, right?
00:09:31
Speaker
I also wanted to be responsible for delivering a promise, right?
00:09:35
Speaker
So, I think with all of that, I started thinking about what if I put the 14-16 hours that I'm putting here into my own business, right?
00:09:44
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If it does do well, then, you know, it
00:09:46
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It'll be great.
00:09:46
Speaker
Right.
00:09:47
Speaker
If it doesn't do well, it's fine.
00:09:48
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I can always find another job.
00:09:50
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And I had I had kind of come to a stage where, you know, I said, you know, let me give myself a couple of years to just give me an opportunity to start my own company, you know, see whether entrepreneurship is for me.
00:10:03
Speaker
And at the same stage, I think Raghu was also quitting his job and was also thinking of starting up.
00:10:11
Speaker
We didn't know what to start up.
00:10:12
Speaker
Where was he working?
00:10:13
Speaker
He was working at Feedback Mention.
00:10:15
Speaker
That was also in the infrastructure consulting domain.
00:10:19
Speaker
So both of us used to meet once in a while.
00:10:21
Speaker
And in one of our meetings in Bangalore, so we said, you know, why don't we think of some ideas?
00:10:28
Speaker
Okay, both of us want to start up.
00:10:29
Speaker
Yes, but let's think of some ideas.
00:10:31
Speaker
So I was actually discussing ideas with, you know, two more of my friends as well, because I was in the zone to start up.
00:10:38
Speaker
So I was like doing discussions with various people.
00:10:40
Speaker
And Raghu was one of my friends who I was discussing with.
00:10:45
Speaker
And in one of the meetings, we said, why don't we do a meta search engine for flight?
00:10:51
Speaker
Like XeGo.
00:10:52
Speaker
Yeah, correct.
00:10:53
Speaker
So we got very excited.
00:10:54
Speaker
We said, okay, let's check it out.
00:10:56
Speaker
Let's do some research and meet back.
00:10:58
Speaker
And we did the research and found that there was Ixigo and quite a few more companies which were doing that, right?
00:11:05
Speaker
So we met again, we were quite disappointed.
00:11:07
Speaker
So both of us weren't thinking of more ideas at that point.
00:11:11
Speaker
And we just said, okay, there's no point doing this whole Ixigo kind of site.
00:11:17
Speaker
So let's think of more ideas, right?
00:11:19
Speaker
So
00:11:20
Speaker
We just said, okay, let's go have a drink.
00:11:21
Speaker
And we went to this pub on Museum Road.
00:11:26
Speaker
It was called Old Tavern.
00:11:28
Speaker
Unfortunately, it's shut now because of COVID.
00:11:31
Speaker
So that no longer exists.
00:11:33
Speaker
But we went there and, you know, basically started drinking.
00:11:36
Speaker
And, you know, I said, what are the daily problems that we can solve for ourselves, right?
00:11:42
Speaker
And started listing down all our daily problems.
00:11:44
Speaker
And one of the daily problems was getting from one place to another, right?
00:11:48
Speaker
Why was it a problem?
00:11:49
Speaker
Because there were only autos.
00:11:50
Speaker
You had to hail down 10 autos before you got one auto agreeing to take you for double the meter, right?
00:11:55
Speaker
Or you had radio taxis, which would take forever to call and book, right?
00:12:00
Speaker
And even after you booked, the taxi wasn't for sure, right?
00:12:03
Speaker
So we said, here's a nice space, which is a daily problem, which we can enter and solve, right?
00:12:09
Speaker
And we'll use technology.
00:12:11
Speaker
Instead of each user calling one company and seeing whether they get a taxi or not, let's just give a single click button.
00:12:18
Speaker
So this was pre-mobile app, right?
00:12:20
Speaker
And this was late 2010.
00:12:21
Speaker
We didn't even know mobile app existed.
00:12:23
Speaker
So...
00:12:24
Speaker
We said on a web page, people should be able to click a button and, you know, the nearest cab should get an alert and they come and pick up this user.
00:12:33
Speaker
And that's basically, so we were extremely drunk when we discussed this.
00:12:37
Speaker
We said, okay, we were very happy that we found a problem.
00:12:40
Speaker
And the next morning also, we were very, very excited about it.
00:12:43
Speaker
uh and then started researching about uh you know how to how to go about solving it and whether there is a real pain uh pain point we did we did a number of surveys with our friend we went and spoke to drivers near the airport and so it was at this time like were you aware of ola uber and all like were they also around
00:13:04
Speaker
Not at all.
00:13:05
Speaker
So this, while, you know, it seems like Taxi Bashar was just, you know, copying Uber from the outside.
00:13:12
Speaker
But when we were doing our research, there was no mention of Uber or Ola in any of the media, right?
00:13:18
Speaker
We didn't even know they existed.
00:13:19
Speaker
We started off independently as this idea, right?
00:13:22
Speaker
And
Taxi for Sure's Growth Journey
00:13:23
Speaker
during the journey, we figured that, you know, there were other companies which were trying to get into the cab space, right?
00:13:30
Speaker
Not exactly daily commute.
00:13:32
Speaker
So our whole idea was daily commute, which we discussed, right?
00:13:35
Speaker
There were various players who were trying to do 4-hour, 8-hour packages and stuff like that.
00:13:40
Speaker
And even Uber started off with premium services, right, in the US before they started scaling.
00:13:45
Speaker
So our initial idea was daily commute using the daily commute vehicle.
00:13:52
Speaker
So you were focused on the affordable segment of this market, basically.
00:13:56
Speaker
Correct.
00:13:57
Speaker
We basically said, you know, the problem is that people don't get taxed.
00:14:01
Speaker
And hence we named ourselves Taxi for sure, because it was very, you know, directly saying out what we're solving.
00:14:08
Speaker
And to make sure that there is a taxi for sure, you needed the highest amount of supply or cabs, right?
00:14:14
Speaker
And the highest amount of supply of cabs was an Indica back then, right?
00:14:19
Speaker
So we said, let's just aggregate every Indica that's out there and, you know, start the service.
00:14:24
Speaker
And that's what we did.
00:14:25
Speaker
So when you quit your jobs, did you have some investor interest in this idea and that gave you the confidence to quit or you decided to just take the plunge and bootstrapped it?
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah, so there were inspiring stories of Flipkart and Redbus doing the rounds then.
00:14:40
Speaker
So one is, you know, the logical thing of, okay, they're selling goods online, they're helping book tickets, bus tickets online.
00:14:49
Speaker
So cabs has to be solved.
00:14:50
Speaker
So we had made up our minds to solve it anyway, right?
00:14:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:54
Speaker
Then, you know, we were very fortunate to meet Deep Kalra, who is the founder of Make My Trip, and him having met us and given us the encouragement to go ahead and solve, right, in the cab space, the way we were thinking.
00:15:10
Speaker
Gave us a tremendous boost as well, right?
00:15:13
Speaker
While he couldn't invest in us right away because, you know, he also was operating a travel business.
00:15:21
Speaker
So he couldn't, while he wanted to invest, he couldn't because of conflict of interest.
00:15:24
Speaker
But...
00:15:25
Speaker
You know, just hearing from a person who had already built an online, successful online business helped us get more concrete.
00:15:33
Speaker
And Deep Kalra was extremely generous to put us in touch with Axel, Tiger, InfoEdge, you know, everybody, right?
00:15:42
Speaker
And we started getting exposed to, you know, what investors think, how do they invest in businesses, right?
00:15:48
Speaker
Our first meeting with InfoEdge, with, you know, Sanjeev Bhikchandani was such a disaster for us now.
00:15:55
Speaker
We actually had no answers to any of the questions.
00:15:59
Speaker
And if I think of it now, they must have thought we'll never make it.
00:16:04
Speaker
So those are the quality of answers that we have given to some of those questions.
00:16:08
Speaker
Learning on the job is very important.
00:16:10
Speaker
And that's what we do now.
00:16:11
Speaker
What were some of the things that you learned that we should know these answers when we go to a VC?
00:16:16
Speaker
And I'm asking this so that it helps other listeners who are looking to pitch to also get prepared to go and pitch to a VC.
00:16:24
Speaker
So, see, 10, 11 years ago, you know, the startup ecosystem wasn't as developed, right?
00:16:29
Speaker
All these terms of, you know, market sizing or, you know, cost of customer acquisition or, you know, various other things, all the terms that we use today as a, you know, as though everybody knows it because everybody knows it because, you know, if you're going to startup, there are enough articles talking about all of this, right?
00:16:47
Speaker
Giving you an insight into what, how to go about building these businesses.
00:16:50
Speaker
But back then, there was none of this, right?
00:16:52
Speaker
There were stories of how they became big.
00:16:54
Speaker
But the details of how to run this business was never there.
00:16:57
Speaker
You know, I remember in the InfoEdge meeting, we were asked, you know, what is your cost of customer acquisition, right?
00:17:06
Speaker
And we said one rupee.
00:17:07
Speaker
And how did you get that?
00:17:09
Speaker
How did we get that one rupee?
00:17:10
Speaker
It was because we were going to earn 30 rupees and this much will go into operations.
00:17:15
Speaker
One rupee is what we can spend to make enough money.
00:17:18
Speaker
Hence, we will spend one rupee.
00:17:19
Speaker
Now, is one rupee enough?
00:17:21
Speaker
So, we had no clue.
00:17:22
Speaker
I'm telling you, it was the most embarrassing VC pitch ever in my life.
00:17:26
Speaker
So,
00:17:27
Speaker
I think the listeners today will definitely be a lot more educated about how to calculate the market size of your venture.
00:17:39
Speaker
What is the cost of customer acquisition?
00:17:41
Speaker
What is the lifetime value of your customer?
00:17:45
Speaker
All of this, once you've gone after your passion and you found a problem and you found a solution...
00:17:50
Speaker
I think these are all questions to be answered before you really put in all the effort.
00:17:55
Speaker
As an entrepreneur, you should be aware whether this business is going to be a billion dollar business or is it going to be a lifestyle business which will make a revenue of 10 million or 20 million dollars every year.
00:18:07
Speaker
So that awareness is very important.
00:18:09
Speaker
And when did you actually get like the first funding and how did that happen?
00:18:15
Speaker
And did it happen like pretty early on or after like a couple of months or, you know?
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, so it happened pretty organically.
00:18:24
Speaker
So when we first spoke to everybody, we were two, we just had a PPT and nobody knew what we were talking about.
00:18:32
Speaker
I don't think we were able to communicate it that well.
00:18:35
Speaker
So it was an open area.
00:18:37
Speaker
So everybody said, you're early.
00:18:39
Speaker
Why don't you guys execute a bit?
00:18:40
Speaker
And then let's talk again.
00:18:41
Speaker
Right.
00:18:42
Speaker
Then we stopped talking to everybody.
00:18:44
Speaker
And then we put our heads down and started executing.
00:18:47
Speaker
With your own money.
00:18:48
Speaker
With our own savings.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:50
Speaker
So we put about four plus four, eight lakh and started.
00:18:53
Speaker
And we got one engineer who came from Andhra back then.
00:18:58
Speaker
And it was just three of us along with two more call center employees.
00:19:03
Speaker
And five of us started.
00:19:04
Speaker
Right.
00:19:05
Speaker
So we got to about 20 bookings a day or so.
00:19:08
Speaker
So what did you do initially?
00:19:10
Speaker
Like you built out a website and then how did you like, did you actually go out to the roads to sign up the taxis or, you know, like how did you start get the ball rolling?
00:19:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:22
Speaker
So we started working on the website, of course.
00:19:26
Speaker
So now going back to it, I think we should have not started off with the website or even waited for the launch of the website.
00:19:32
Speaker
We could have, we also had a phone number that we got 60601010.
00:19:38
Speaker
And we could have just started with that number much earlier is what I feel.
00:19:42
Speaker
Anyway, so we started with the website, we launched it, we got our number and then we needed bookings, right?
00:19:50
Speaker
We didn't even know how somebody would call us.
00:19:53
Speaker
We didn't know the concept of SEO, SEM, listing on some services like Justile.
00:19:58
Speaker
So all of this, we started exploring, right?
00:20:00
Speaker
On how to go about it and get some of these tie-ups in place.
00:20:04
Speaker
Uh, some of the first few things we did, we told some of our friends who are working at Yahoo, Infosys, TCS and all these places to, you know, see if they could recommend us, recommend us on their internal website.
00:20:16
Speaker
Right.
00:20:17
Speaker
Uh, and that's how we got our first unknown customer to book with us.
00:20:20
Speaker
So it was, and how did you get the supply?
00:20:23
Speaker
The supply?
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:24
Speaker
So first we started off trying to talk to Meru and Mega Cabs and all these guys.
00:20:29
Speaker
They just said, boss, uh, you know, we have enough bookings.
00:20:32
Speaker
We don't need more, um,
00:20:33
Speaker
So with that one statement, you know, I started thinking of who actually needs booking, right?
00:20:38
Speaker
And then figured out that the local guys who are listing on JezDial need bookings the most, right?
00:20:44
Speaker
So I started talking to calling JezDial and getting local operator numbers, right?
00:20:50
Speaker
and would go and meet them.
00:20:51
Speaker
And they were more than happy to tie up and say, okay, I will service your one booking.
00:20:56
Speaker
Even if you give me one booking a day, I will service.
00:20:58
Speaker
So here was the actual supply, which was hungry for business, right?
00:21:03
Speaker
So the guys who are a brand already weren't hungry for business.
00:21:07
Speaker
The guys who had independent individual cabs were hungry for business.
00:21:11
Speaker
So we said, let's double down on this, you know, the people who are hungry for business.
00:21:15
Speaker
That's how we started building our supply.
00:21:17
Speaker
And word of mouth is extremely high amongst drivers.
00:21:20
Speaker
So we got 10, they got their friends, their friends got their friends.
00:21:24
Speaker
So it became easier and easier to grow supply as we grew.
00:21:28
Speaker
Okay.
00:21:28
Speaker
And this was like they received the order through an SMS or someone called and told them, pick up from here.
00:21:35
Speaker
Because your app and all would have come in later, right?
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah, correct.
00:21:38
Speaker
So our backend system started off as an Excel sheet where we had shared an Excel sheet and we were basically saying, you know, this customer has to be picked up at 9am from this address, dropped to this address, and then we would have empty fields of driver name, number, etc.
00:21:54
Speaker
Right?
00:21:55
Speaker
The first few bookings, you know, we gave it to some of the guys who tied up with us.
00:21:59
Speaker
But then we started more bookings than what cars we had, right?
00:22:04
Speaker
So we actually started calling Just Dial, calling some of the operators and just giving them the bookings service, right?
00:22:11
Speaker
So we would call as the customer asking for a cab, just book it based on the information that we had.
00:22:17
Speaker
And then 15 minutes before the booking, we would call up, get the driver number and send a manual SMS to our customer saying, this is the driver number
00:22:25
Speaker
This is the driver name.
00:22:26
Speaker
He will reach 15 minutes or 10 minutes before the pickup time.
00:22:30
Speaker
Right.
00:22:30
Speaker
And then you used to talk to the driver and guide him to the address as much as we could.
00:22:35
Speaker
So that's how we started off and then slowly started automating each of these processes one by one.
00:22:41
Speaker
You told me that you had reached till about 20 orders a day.
00:22:44
Speaker
Then?
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah, after 20-hour orders a day, you know, we were running out of money and started talking to the very few angel investors and early-stage funds that were live back then.
00:22:57
Speaker
And somehow, you know, none of them had agreed.
00:23:00
Speaker
And in one of our alumni events, our, you know, super senior, his name is Ram Shastri, we met him and, you know, heard he's an extremely dynamic entrepreneur.
00:23:12
Speaker
And we went and told him our story and he got very excited and he said, I'll put in 5 lakhs and a couple of my friends will also put in 5 lakhs.
00:23:20
Speaker
And he was the first guy to agree to put money into us.
00:23:24
Speaker
And while in that process of closing the 15 lakhs from Ram and his friend, we also started meeting other VCs and everybody else.
00:23:34
Speaker
And one such meeting led us to Anand from Axel.
00:23:39
Speaker
So it was pure serendipity.
00:23:41
Speaker
We had actually gone to pitch to JGI Ventures, the Jain College Venturer.
00:23:47
Speaker
And we were pitching to their investment head.
00:23:50
Speaker
And he liked us.
00:23:52
Speaker
But JGI Ventures wanted, you know, a very high percentage of our company, like a 70% to put a crore or something like that.
00:24:00
Speaker
Right.
00:24:00
Speaker
So we said, OK, that doesn't work.
00:24:02
Speaker
It doesn't make sense to us.
00:24:05
Speaker
So when you actually so when he actually told us that, you know, if you guys are interested, then I can put you in touch with Anand because Anand used to rent out his apartment back then.
00:24:18
Speaker
right so he said i know anand from axel so he whenever he comes to meet me i'm i'll be happy to put you in touch with so he said okay fine right please keep us in mind and we we kept looking for investors and one day suddenly in the afternoon you know he called his this person's name was hema sheshabdi so he called us and said anand is in my office why don't you guys come over and pitch to him he'll be leaving in 20 minutes
00:24:46
Speaker
JP Nagar to Jain College, you know, we drove like maniacs and reached there in 10 minutes.
00:24:53
Speaker
You know, we got a 10-minute slot to pitch to Anand.
00:24:57
Speaker
So Anand said, you know, went through it patiently and he basically said, let's set up something in our office next week.
00:25:05
Speaker
And that's how our trust with Axel started.
00:25:08
Speaker
And the following week, we actually met Anand, Prashant Prakash and Prayan, right?
00:25:13
Speaker
And it was a one hour meeting.
00:25:15
Speaker
And, you know, right after that one hour, Prashant said, you know, they'd love to put in a crore or two into the business and start off.
00:25:23
Speaker
So, you know, I think, you know, Axel moved extremely fast, which we are still grateful to.
00:25:31
Speaker
So they were one of the first known VCs to have said yes to us.
00:25:35
Speaker
And then post that, you know,
00:25:37
Speaker
all the competitive dynamics started.
00:25:38
Speaker
You know, we heard that, you know, Tiger was looking to invest in Ola and thought, you know, the one, two crores would be less.
00:25:47
Speaker
So we should raise more money.
00:25:49
Speaker
So Axel put us in touch with Helion.
00:25:52
Speaker
We also got Bloom involved and, you know, basically, you know, got in, you know, a bunch of investors together and raised a million dollars, the first million dollar check.
00:26:04
Speaker
So how much time later was this?
00:26:07
Speaker
One million dollars?
00:26:08
Speaker
Within six months of the first raise?
The Ola Acquisition
00:26:10
Speaker
No, we hadn't raised yet.
00:26:11
Speaker
So instead of Axel putting the one to crores, we said, let's do a joint million dollars.
00:26:16
Speaker
So it's the same round.
00:26:17
Speaker
And they put in a million.
00:26:19
Speaker
Axel, Helion and Bloom put in a million dollars.
00:26:22
Speaker
It was maybe three months after we discussed all of it.
00:26:24
Speaker
The process took that much time, that's why.
00:26:26
Speaker
How much did you dilute for that stake?
00:26:28
Speaker
Like, what was your ownership after this?
00:26:31
Speaker
I don't know whether I should say it out loud, but it was quite high compared to what it is these days.
00:26:38
Speaker
As in your individual stakes were like in the teens or better than that?
00:26:43
Speaker
No, no, better than that.
00:26:44
Speaker
Better than that.
00:26:45
Speaker
I mean, so then you are at a pretty comfortable place in terms of firepower.
00:26:51
Speaker
Uh, you know, how did you go about with the scale up?
00:26:53
Speaker
Like you were at 20 orders a day around that time.
00:26:56
Speaker
So, you know, what was the journey after that?
00:26:58
Speaker
So we got a target of hitting 500 orders a day, uh, within a year or so.
00:27:03
Speaker
And I think we achieved that within six months.
00:27:06
Speaker
Um, I think taxi is such a service where word of mouth is very high.
00:27:09
Speaker
If you keep your one customer who came to you happy today, uh,
00:27:14
Speaker
Since it is a daily use case, somebody else will talk about taking an auto or a cab at some point in time to that customer and they will recommend it.
00:27:21
Speaker
It is a very natural recommendation.
00:27:23
Speaker
So we saw very high word of mouth happening from day one for us.
00:27:29
Speaker
And apart from that, we also listed ourselves on Just Dial, Ask Laila, Sulekha, all these places.
00:27:37
Speaker
We also invested some time to get our SEO right, spent a little bit of money on SEM, on Google search.
00:27:45
Speaker
We started, while we were doing this, you know, Mayank, who's my present co-founder, he also helped us back then.
00:27:53
Speaker
And he brought in this, you know, very interesting concept of, you know, being everywhere when a person thinks of a taxi, right?
00:27:59
Speaker
Which means, okay, I'm at the railway station, I'm thinking of a taxi.
00:28:02
Speaker
I'm landing, you know, into Bangalore from Delhi, let's say, I'm thinking of a taxi.
00:28:08
Speaker
So we started taking advantage of a lot of trigger points where people will think of taxi or search for a taxi.
00:28:13
Speaker
And that philosophy helped us a lot with our, you know, marketing.
00:28:18
Speaker
And of course, we started spending... You put up like holdings over there and you made sure that supply was present there for food service.
00:28:25
Speaker
No, no.
00:28:25
Speaker
It was more tactical than that.
00:28:27
Speaker
As in, if you were landing from Delhi into Bangalore, as soon as you switch on your phone in Bangalore, after you get a welcome message from your phone network, you will, you are getting a message from taxi for sure, right?
00:28:41
Speaker
So it was as contextual as that.
00:28:42
Speaker
It wasn't about, you know, a banner and hoping that people saw us.
00:28:46
Speaker
Also, early days, we did this really nice jingle around our number 60601010.
00:28:51
Speaker
So that became extremely viral.
00:28:54
Speaker
So every child in Bangalore was singing it.
00:28:58
Speaker
So that also helped us.
00:28:59
Speaker
Like, you know, when you think of a taxi, there's only one number that comes to your mind.
00:29:04
Speaker
It really worked well.
00:29:04
Speaker
So this 500 a day was when you were still only in Bangalore?
00:29:08
Speaker
Yeah, it was only Bangalore.
00:29:10
Speaker
After the 500, I think we started expanding.
00:29:13
Speaker
Went to Delhi, set up the Delhi office, came to Chennai, set that up.
00:29:17
Speaker
Then Hyderabad, yes.
00:29:19
Speaker
Hyderabad and all other cities.
00:29:21
Speaker
Then we got an expansion head who set up the rest of the city.
00:29:24
Speaker
So it was quite
00:29:25
Speaker
something yeah so what was like the peak number of rides a day that you were at i think we hit 40 000 rides a day okay and in how how much time like from that 500 to 40 000 that no so the whole journey of start to finish of taxi for sure was three and a half years right uh 40 000 was our peak when we agreed to sell uh and june 2011 was when we started uh january 2015 is when we sold
00:29:52
Speaker
So, and how did the headcount grow in this period?
00:29:55
Speaker
Like, what headcount had you reached?
00:29:58
Speaker
You know, you started with just five people.
00:30:01
Speaker
Okay, 2000.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:02
Speaker
And these people were in what kind of roles?
00:30:05
Speaker
So, we had an app and a call center to take bookings.
00:30:10
Speaker
So, quite a heavy number were in the call center.
00:30:13
Speaker
And the next biggest team was the supply team, which took care of the cabs in the
00:30:20
Speaker
this in the particular cities uh we had gone to 48 cities by the way uh from just one city so we needed a team everywhere uh we had some hubs for the smaller towns we didn't have uh the call center right there uh so yeah and then the engineering team and then growth marketing and how did you compare in the rankings between you uber and ola like you were at 40 000 what about uber and ola what would they have been at
00:30:44
Speaker
I don't know a confirmed number for Ola and what they were back then.
00:30:49
Speaker
What I was hearing was they were easily above 100,000 rides a day.
00:30:54
Speaker
And Uber was probably like 10,000 or less than 10,000 rides a day.
00:30:59
Speaker
Okay, it was early days for Uber.
00:31:01
Speaker
Okay, okay.
00:31:02
Speaker
So then what happened?
00:31:04
Speaker
Why did you eventually sell?
00:31:06
Speaker
I think a bunch of things came together, right?
00:31:09
Speaker
So, see, while running a business, you have certain things that are in your control, which is, which team do I hire?
00:31:15
Speaker
How do I make them work?
00:31:16
Speaker
What is my understanding of the business?
00:31:18
Speaker
How do I want to take it forward, right?
00:31:21
Speaker
Then comes a slightly more, your supply, which behaves like it's yours, but it really isn't, doesn't it?
00:31:28
Speaker
It's a beast of its own.
00:31:29
Speaker
But it's close to you.
00:31:30
Speaker
You can still control how the drivers behave and the users behave.
00:31:34
Speaker
Then there are market forces.
00:31:35
Speaker
So market forces are your competition.
00:31:37
Speaker
Now, how your competition behaves and what decisions they take, you have no control over.
00:31:42
Speaker
You can only react to certain things that affect you, right?
00:31:46
Speaker
And one such thing that happened was the 200 million raise from Ola, from SoftBank.
00:31:52
Speaker
So, you know, I think SoftBank, you know, exited Alibaba with their IPO in China.
00:31:58
Speaker
They wanted to invest in growing markets and, you know, saw Ola as an opportunity to invest in the cab market in India.
00:32:05
Speaker
And they raised $200 million when, you know, we had totally raised $20 million or so back.
00:32:10
Speaker
So I think... How many rounds more did you do after the first million?
00:32:13
Speaker
Two more rounds, totally about 20 million.
00:32:15
Speaker
And then because of that raise, we had to respond to that raise, right?
00:32:20
Speaker
One, our business was growing well.
00:32:23
Speaker
We were unit level profitable in Bangalore and Delhi, all other cities moving towards that.
00:32:28
Speaker
So it was a very tight ship that we were running and growing, right?
00:32:32
Speaker
As soon as, you know, Ola raised that much money, we had to change strategy.
00:32:37
Speaker
We had to become more aggressive.
00:32:39
Speaker
We had to forget about unit economics.
00:32:41
Speaker
And just push the accelerator on, you know, capturing mark.
00:32:45
Speaker
And that is when, you know, our runway, which was easily 15 to 18 months, became less than four or five months because of the pace at which we had to grow in order to compete with the competition.
00:32:57
Speaker
This was your call or the investors told you to do this?
00:33:00
Speaker
No, no, it would be our, as in, we have to guide the call, right?
00:33:05
Speaker
And the investors did agree.
00:33:06
Speaker
And we started being more aggressive.
00:33:09
Speaker
And once we became more aggressive, we had to raise more money.
00:33:12
Speaker
And when we were raising that money, you know, meeting different people across the world, the Uber rape incident happened in Delhi, right?
00:33:21
Speaker
And with that came headlines that, you know, Taxi Fischer, Ola, Uber are banned in India.
00:33:28
Speaker
And because of that, you know, a lot of interested investors started wanting to wait it out.
00:33:36
Speaker
So there were some investors who were ready to go ahead with it.
00:33:40
Speaker
So we wanted to raise about 80 million or so investors.
00:33:43
Speaker
to 100 million and we had a committed 50 60 million so we had a choice of raising that and closing that round right but we would have had to come back to the market in in about six months uh there was also at the same time an opportunity to uh sell to ola or uber both of them made offers uh so because of the uncertain uncertainty around whether you know taxes will be banned not be banned and the fact that we're running out of money
00:34:09
Speaker
And if we raise the 50-60, it meant that we would have to come back into the market again to raise in six months.
00:34:17
Speaker
We thought it might be a good opportunity keeping in mind the interests of investors, employees, drivers who work with us, everybody, to actually merge with Ola and make sure that there is success for everybody.
00:34:30
Speaker
And that's basically how we took that to.
00:34:32
Speaker
In hindsight, do you think the decision to go aggressive and forget about unit economics would be the same decision you would take now?
00:34:40
Speaker
There's no other way.
00:34:41
Speaker
If you didn't change, you would have died anyways.
00:34:45
Speaker
So see, some of these decisions are market dynamic.
00:34:48
Speaker
If you're in a hyper competitive space, apart from what you would have wanted to do if you were the only company in the space, you should also think of your
00:34:56
Speaker
market dynamic and what your competition does so you would have anyway lost customers and drivers because Ola would have given better incentives or better discounts if you had not gone aggressive yourself yeah correct we would have lost all drivers okay okay so in 2015 you decided to merge it with Ola so you know what next then like you know did you like suddenly have nothing to do or did you work at Ola for a while how did that migration happen
00:35:25
Speaker
No, we exited Ola a month after.
00:35:28
Speaker
So we had Arvind Singhal, who was our CEO.
00:35:31
Speaker
He took over as the CEO of Taxi for sure.
00:35:34
Speaker
And he pretty much knew every bit of what we were doing at Taxi for sure.
00:35:38
Speaker
So it was an easier handover.
00:35:41
Speaker
you know because it's in the same competitive space um you know sometimes it's an easier handover to the buyer right uh and there was nothing much to do after that so as part of the deal we said we will exit um because there can't be two leadership right uh so that's that's how it happened so we we exited right one month after and suddenly after being so busy uh you have nothing to do
00:36:06
Speaker
okay okay but did you walk away with like a significant amount of cash to like reinvest in the next venture or something like that or like you know what was your situation at that time so most of our exit happened in cash for us uh founders uh so it wasn't about investing in another company i think you know we we had strived and struggled really hard uh for three and a half years and you know we got an exit for that hard work uh
00:36:33
Speaker
And we still are shareholders in Ola and really hope for the success of the company because we were one of the key players who, you know, formed that industry in India, right?
Ventures Post-Taxi for Sure: Vokal and Koo
00:36:44
Speaker
The first player in Bangalore, for example.
00:36:46
Speaker
So I think it's important that, you know, we recognize that, you know, the fact that, you know, there are multiple players who always form an industry at a pace.
00:36:55
Speaker
So if there was no competition, you would take it slow and hence, you know, it will take longer to form the industry.
00:37:00
Speaker
But if there is competition, we were an extremely aggressive competitor to everybody who was out there.
00:37:06
Speaker
I think that's very important to note.
00:37:09
Speaker
And why did you select Ola over Uber?
00:37:11
Speaker
I think we were more aligned in terms of, you know, model of operating.
00:37:16
Speaker
Ola was, you know, had as many cities live.
00:37:21
Speaker
They had a heavy operations team, whereas Uber had a three-member-per-city kind of a structure till then, right?
00:37:28
Speaker
um and they didn't have a call center they didn't have cash bookings um your current schedule rights for later you know just the so they had a they were early in india and they were still learning and we didn't know whether you know they would uh actually move towards what tax officer is doing or uh you know just keep running on the you know global model that they had uh so if they did choose to run on the global model then you know a lot of people would lose their job uh
00:37:55
Speaker
And hence, we chose to sell to Ola.
00:37:58
Speaker
Plus, I think, you know, the probability of the deal was higher with Ola because, you know, buying out the second biggest player in the market would essentially make them undisputed leaders of the market and hence be able to raise more money at a much higher valuation than they would have with, you know, one more competitor in the fray, right?
00:38:17
Speaker
So...
00:38:18
Speaker
I think there was more value-add that was happening with Ola by buying us than what an Uber would have seen.
00:38:24
Speaker
So we thought that was a better choice.
00:38:26
Speaker
And did you interact with Bhavesh also?
00:38:28
Speaker
Like, did you work with him for a while?
00:38:31
Speaker
Only the deal contours, mostly driven by Ragu.
00:38:36
Speaker
I had met Bhavesh a couple of times before, not in the deal aspect of it, but, you know, just as discussions around common things that have to be solved for the industry and other things.
00:38:45
Speaker
What was the work split between you and Raghu?
00:38:48
Speaker
So I was looking after mostly external stuff and Raghu was mostly looking after internal stuff.
00:38:55
Speaker
So what do I mean by that?
00:38:56
Speaker
You know, when we started off, it was mostly divided.
00:38:59
Speaker
Raghu was looking after product, technology, finance, operation, right?
00:39:05
Speaker
I was looking after users, marketing, supply onboarding and supply management of the cab.
00:39:13
Speaker
So that's how it was split.
00:39:14
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay.
00:39:16
Speaker
So like a new chapter in your life starts now in 2015.
00:39:20
Speaker
So tell me what you did post that.
00:39:22
Speaker
I think for about three, four months, I didn't even think of anything and then started thinking about what's the next big wave that is going to come in the Internet space.
00:39:32
Speaker
I started making some observations around what the non-English users were up to on the Internet.
00:39:39
Speaker
They're getting access to phones, data.
00:39:41
Speaker
So this was pre-Geo era when I was making all these observations.
00:39:45
Speaker
It's an eventuality that people will get access to cheaper phones and data is also going to get cheap.
00:39:51
Speaker
So the fundamental reasons why somebody uses the internet is to search for information and knowledge or connect with other people or communicate or express oneself.
00:40:03
Speaker
So this is what we do, no matter what we use.
00:40:05
Speaker
Even with this podcast, I'm communicating, right?
00:40:07
Speaker
And we're using this tool for that.
00:40:09
Speaker
So for the English audience, all of this is sorted with some social media, some other platforms.
00:40:14
Speaker
But for the non-English speaking audience who won't be comfortable with an English first experience, how do we give these same experiences of expression and searching for knowledge, information, all of those things?
00:40:26
Speaker
That's how I started thinking about it.
00:40:27
Speaker
And Axel and Bloom, my previous investors, of course, liked the whole area under which this would operate.
00:40:36
Speaker
And, you know, we started experimenting with some product, right?
00:40:40
Speaker
So we built voice only WhatsApp.
00:40:43
Speaker
We built a voice Twitter.
00:40:45
Speaker
We, you know, we built several things based on a thesis of voice for local language users, right?
00:40:52
Speaker
Then in that framework, we found a product market fit in voice question answers.
00:40:57
Speaker
right um so most of the new internet users uh are asking questions on google using the voice mic button right 40 percent of google searches in india are through voice and most of them are local language questions now when somebody asks a question in why they expect a answer back in why so that is what we what we basically uh found right and we said okay there are no there is no uh
00:41:24
Speaker
whether it's text voice or whatever format there are no answers to these questions that are being asked afresh on the internet so let's build a community which will answer these questions in local language right and that that product market fit led to vocal right uh so vocal has been growing extremely well we're at uh you know around 15 million monthly active users on our uh search uh platform and uh
00:41:48
Speaker
It's growing well.
00:41:50
Speaker
So you don't have to spend too much.
00:41:51
Speaker
There are organic questions coming in.
00:41:53
Speaker
There's a community on our side which is answering those.
00:41:56
Speaker
All of that gets indexed.
00:41:58
Speaker
The next time somebody searches anywhere, you know, our answers are popping up right on top.
00:42:03
Speaker
As in even a Google search would show your answers.
00:42:06
Speaker
Correct.
00:42:06
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:08
Speaker
So this would convert the voice into text so that it is indexed by search engine?
00:42:13
Speaker
Yeah, that we were doing.
00:42:14
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:15
Speaker
So you had that voice to text engine for all these local languages?
00:42:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:42:20
Speaker
So we didn't build it.
00:42:21
Speaker
So this is the only technology that we used outright from the shelf.
00:42:25
Speaker
But all other technology, identifying the tags for a question, whether it's a fact or opinion, all of those things are built by us.
00:42:33
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:34
Speaker
And when did vocal start?
00:42:35
Speaker
Like which year?
00:42:36
Speaker
Was it immediately after?
00:42:38
Speaker
So we did a bunch of experiments for a year.
00:42:42
Speaker
And then after that, vocal kind of emerged.
00:42:45
Speaker
This was early 2016.
00:42:47
Speaker
So why did you get interested in a problem which doesn't have much personal connect for you?
00:42:53
Speaker
Like, you know, I mean, the fact that there's not much content which is non-English in the internet doesn't affect you much.
00:43:00
Speaker
You can always consume stuff in English.
00:43:04
Speaker
So what made you interested in this problem?
00:43:06
Speaker
So during the journey of Taxi for Sure, some of the most satisfying moments for me was when, you know, I'm walking down the street and a taxi driver, you know, puts his hand out and waves it and says hi, right?
00:43:20
Speaker
And some taxi drivers would stop and want to have a conversation and they would thank us for all the effort that we put in to change their life.
00:43:28
Speaker
So those were some of the most satisfying moments of Taxi for Sure, where you've really impacted lives and enhanced their lives to another level.
00:43:36
Speaker
So when we started Taxi for Sure, did I understand the driver problems as deeply?
00:43:42
Speaker
Maybe not.
00:43:43
Speaker
I was just trying to solve the user side problem, which was more my behavior.
00:43:48
Speaker
But
00:43:48
Speaker
In that journey, you've also solved somebody else's problem, right?
00:43:51
Speaker
And that is highly impacted, right?
00:43:53
Speaker
And I think that is the theme of this, where I said, you know, what's a business that can have extremely high impact on people, on a large number of people?
00:44:02
Speaker
And that's how my interest to solve, you know, the new internet user problem started.
00:44:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:44:08
Speaker
Okay.
00:44:08
Speaker
And so, you know, what has been the I mean, how do you monetize this?
00:44:15
Speaker
Like when somebody is asking a question and other people are answering it, this is all like user generated content, right?
00:44:21
Speaker
I mean, none of it is created by your team, the questions or the answers.
00:44:25
Speaker
No, no, this is all user-generated content.
00:44:27
Speaker
There is no spend on consumption or creation, right?
00:44:31
Speaker
So it's a pure marketplace in that sort.
00:44:34
Speaker
How do you make money?
00:44:35
Speaker
So we've still not started making money.
00:44:38
Speaker
I think there will be opportunities to make money as the platform grows even further.
00:44:43
Speaker
Just like how Google makes money, right?
00:44:45
Speaker
So there are questions being asked on Google all the time.
00:44:47
Speaker
There are some which you can make money off and some questions that you can't make money off.
00:44:51
Speaker
But, you know, you will still answer the questions that you can't make money of because that's what is giving you the brand of ask anything here.
00:45:00
Speaker
And that's what we are also leading to.
00:45:02
Speaker
We're just, you know, being very patient about the repository that is being created in voice answer.
00:45:09
Speaker
Once we have enough voice answer repository, I think that is the time to double down on some of the search and asking behavior and CRM.
00:45:17
Speaker
So you would like have display ads or like audio ads considering that your product is like a... Yeah, so it could be various types of ads.
00:45:27
Speaker
It could be a short... So let's say it's a one minute answer.
00:45:30
Speaker
I could add a short five second or 10 second clip before the answer starts playing.
00:45:34
Speaker
Or it could be a full answer by a brand.
00:45:38
Speaker
about the actual answer right it could be uh live sessions from experts who are answering on the topics of career education uh health and all of these right uh so there are various uh thoughts on how to monetize we still haven't hit that stage okay okay and how do you acquire customers is it like word of mouth or do you also spend
00:46:00
Speaker
No, no, we don't spend anything on customer acquisition.
00:46:03
Speaker
So it's largely a search, whether it comes from Google, we're in talks with Alexa to Alexa team to see whether we can answer some of the Hindi and other regional language questions.
00:46:16
Speaker
So what we have done in terms of value add to the internet is built a community which is answering in local languages using voice.
00:46:24
Speaker
Now we've not hit a stage where we're saying we will be the destination to ask, right?
00:46:30
Speaker
our content is being put onto platforms where the asking is already happening, right?
00:46:35
Speaker
And once, you know, we have a big enough repository, then we will see how to invest into the whole owning of asking experience.
The Rise of Koo
00:46:43
Speaker
And typically, what are the type of users that you have and what is the kind of things that people ask, you know, most frequently asked?
00:46:51
Speaker
We have a lot.
00:46:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:53
Speaker
We have a lot of fact questions being asked.
00:46:56
Speaker
People generally like, you know, another human saying out the answer, even if it is as simple a question as, you know, who built the Taj Mahal or who is the Prime Minister of India or anything of that.
00:47:08
Speaker
So there are quite a few fact questions.
00:47:10
Speaker
Then in opinion questions, you know, education, career, health, life, love.
00:47:17
Speaker
These are some of the main categories.
00:47:19
Speaker
And these categories are...
00:47:21
Speaker
are a reflection of what India's mood is India's mood is to learn get better and become a better version of themselves right how to earn money you know how to get a better career so that is what is on Indians and that's quite a bulk of the questions that we get okay and tell me about Koo which you have recently launched so what is the idea there
00:47:43
Speaker
Yeah, so while building vocal, we saw, you know, there are various types of expression that the new users can do.
00:47:50
Speaker
One is asking questions and answering questions.
00:47:52
Speaker
And the mood there is all about Q&A, right, on vocal.
00:47:56
Speaker
We said, okay, people may want to express themselves freely, right, without answering a question.
00:48:02
Speaker
How about building a product for that use?
00:48:04
Speaker
And we said, you know, microblogging is a very good way of letting people express themselves in a very quick manner, right?
00:48:12
Speaker
And
00:48:13
Speaker
That's how we started the experiment of Koo.
00:48:15
Speaker
So we launched it in March 2020.
00:48:17
Speaker
And we've already seen good traction on it.
00:48:22
Speaker
Like, you know, Canada.
00:48:23
Speaker
So we're close to a million downloads overall.
00:48:26
Speaker
Canada has grown very well.
00:48:27
Speaker
That was our first community.
00:48:29
Speaker
We have some of the most, you know, famous Kannadigas as part of the community already, whether it is the Deputy Chief Minister, Ashwat Maira and all.
00:48:40
Speaker
cricketers Anil Kumble and Java Gal Srinath.
00:48:42
Speaker
It could be Sadhguru, you know, posting content in Kannada.
00:48:48
Speaker
So all of this is happening on the platform right now, right?
00:48:52
Speaker
And it's extremely useful for Kannadigas to connect in a very different manner when you have a social media in their language.
00:49:01
Speaker
I'm a Kannadiga myself and, you know, that's how we started off with Kannada and built the product.
00:49:06
Speaker
And now we're in Hindi and, you know, we've got multiple folks.
00:49:10
Speaker
So Hindi is growing faster than Kannada now.
00:49:12
Speaker
We've got a lot of folks from Bollywood as well joining, right?
00:49:17
Speaker
We've got, so we recently won the Aatmanirbar app challenge, right?
00:49:22
Speaker
You know, that has really helped us get noticed.
00:49:26
Speaker
And we're hoping to, you know, basically build from there and make sure that for the wider audience of India, we are the microblogging platform.
00:49:34
Speaker
Okay.
00:49:34
Speaker
So, in a way, if vocal is like an audio quora, ku is like an audio twitter, is it audio or audio video both?
00:49:42
Speaker
No, it's text, audio, video.
00:49:44
Speaker
It's open, right?
00:49:47
Speaker
So, it is aimed for those who prefer local languages over English.
00:49:52
Speaker
So, it does took
00:49:54
Speaker
So, Koo is directed towards some of the most intelligent, smart people in India and who are part of the first 100 million users of India and who prefer local language over English language.
00:50:07
Speaker
And so, all these celebrities who have joined Koo, did you deliberately try and do a campaign to get them to join or was it all organically?
00:50:17
Speaker
We've reached out to some of them.
00:50:18
Speaker
We've got organic downloads from some of them, but we've never actually done any kind of deal with them, monetary deal with them to get them on board, which a lot of social media platforms in India are doing or have done.
00:50:34
Speaker
But I think the quality of the product and the mood of the product is about thoughts and opinions.
00:50:39
Speaker
And there is a lot of need to be able to communicate oneself in local languages in order to build a strong rapport with the new internet audience, which prefers local language over English.
00:50:51
Speaker
So, you know, I think products are defined as much by what you can't do as by what you can do on it.
00:50:57
Speaker
So what are the things you can't do on Koo?
00:50:58
Speaker
Like, what are the restrictions you have?
00:51:00
Speaker
Like, you know, is there a character limit or a length limit on the audio or video?
00:51:06
Speaker
There is a character limit of 400 characters or a one minute audio review.
00:51:11
Speaker
We've also made it compulsory for you to say something.
00:51:14
Speaker
You can't just come and, you know, upload a WhatsApp forward and, you know, just say I've posted, right?
00:51:20
Speaker
We want you to be speaking your mind on the platform, right?
00:51:24
Speaker
Because we're a thought and opinions platform.
00:51:26
Speaker
We're not an entertainment platform, right?
00:51:28
Speaker
So that is another restriction that we've done.
00:51:32
Speaker
Also, we don't show you content unless you follow the people that you like.
00:51:37
Speaker
So that is a very Western product kind of a philosophy where, you know, from day one, you are forcing users to tell their preference so that in the long run, each one, so you could come to Koo and, you know, follow a lot of politics related people and, you know, you get your politics feed and I could just follow writers and poets and get a, you know, that kind of, right?
00:51:59
Speaker
So for each individual user, it is different.
00:52:02
Speaker
And we've, you know, basically bucketed everybody into a language based community so that the discussion on a daily basis are around what matters to that community and not really those are not diluted by what the national news and national sentiment is.
00:52:18
Speaker
So like audio is mandatory, like you cannot just post a text or an image or a picture or something like that.
00:52:25
Speaker
Not audio is mandatory.
00:52:26
Speaker
Text, audio or video.
00:52:27
Speaker
Saying something original is mad.
00:52:30
Speaker
So you can put up a picture, but you have to say something about the picture.
00:52:33
Speaker
You can't just put up a picture.
00:52:35
Speaker
What is the moat for this?
00:52:37
Speaker
Like, you know, if Twitter decides to focus more on vernacular, what would be your moat around Qoo?
00:52:44
Speaker
I think you know doing a local language first approach has an advantage right so for everybody who doesn't understand so let's say I tell you to download a Spanish or you know even a Chinese app and navigate yourself you'll never feel welcome on that app because you don't understand the language right.
00:53:02
Speaker
Even if it is a photo first experience, you still need to sign up and navigate and, you know, all the basic stuff you're going to have to do in the foreign language, right?
00:53:11
Speaker
So you will never feel at home.
00:53:13
Speaker
And hence, you will never use that.
00:53:15
Speaker
Plus, you know, being a Kanadi guy, I want to see other Kanadi guys.
00:53:18
Speaker
First, I don't want to see everybody else in the country.
00:53:21
Speaker
So I think there are special, you know, things that we've built into the product, which makes you feel more at home when you use more than anything else, right?
00:53:31
Speaker
And now for that, you have to do product tweak.
00:53:34
Speaker
And it depends on whether, you know, companies have a global approach to product, whether they localize it, to what extent do you localize?
00:53:43
Speaker
Are they equipped for it?
00:53:44
Speaker
So all of that matters, right?
Future Plans and Impact
00:53:46
Speaker
I think to just compete in the realm that we operate in, you'll have to be a lot more nimble than what you are right now.
00:53:54
Speaker
Okay.
00:53:54
Speaker
So the ban of Chinese apps, how has that affected you?
00:53:59
Speaker
We're not an alternative to any Chinese app that was there, right?
00:54:02
Speaker
So there was no... So for example, a video app like a TikTok replica is getting a lot of traction, right?
00:54:08
Speaker
Because people want it...
00:54:10
Speaker
It's another story that nobody is retaining on those apps, but it is a replica of TikTok and hence people searching for TikTok will come here.
00:54:16
Speaker
But in our case, we were anyway saying we want to do microblogging in local language, irrespective of who is there or not there, right?
00:54:24
Speaker
So our product thesis and, you know, how we want to build this company hasn't changed.
00:54:29
Speaker
And because we are not a direct replacement to any Chinese app, we've not seen some crazy stuff.
00:54:34
Speaker
But because of the Chinese app ban, I think the sentiment around wanting to use Made in India app is very high.
00:54:41
Speaker
So when a user gets to know that, okay, this is a Made in India app versus some other countries app, Koo will definitely have an advantage.
00:54:49
Speaker
So going forward, like between Vocal and Koo, you know, what do you see as the bigger focus area for you and why?
00:54:56
Speaker
So is Twitter hotter or Quora?
00:54:58
Speaker
Yeah, Twitter is, I think, definitely a bigger organization.
00:55:02
Speaker
Adhan, just being part of your daily life happens on Twitter, right?
00:55:06
Speaker
Full stop.
00:55:06
Speaker
So for us, I think the focus right now, because Koo is also an early product, the focus on developing it and bringing it to a certain level is definitely on Koo.
00:55:18
Speaker
vocal is hitting a 15 million MAU kind of scale and it is mostly search and the playbook is ready.
00:55:25
Speaker
We're mostly in Hindi there and we'll go into other languages.
00:55:27
Speaker
So that is something that we will do over a period of time.
00:55:31
Speaker
And because it is so dependent on search and we don't spend too much money on marketing, it is dependent on external factors as well, right?
00:55:40
Speaker
It is not just
00:55:41
Speaker
you know we take advantage of the market by spending and acquiring customers we are just going to keep growing the community there and community will keep coming and giving answers which you know people will consume from various ways of asking so KU is our focus and we want KU to grow into every language that Indians speak we want to develop all those communities and hopefully we should become a part of everybody's daily lives in the next one year
00:56:08
Speaker
Okay, so my last question.
00:56:10
Speaker
So, you know, what is it that is personally driving you these days?
00:56:15
Speaker
Like, you know, is there a question that you're seeking the answer to?
00:56:18
Speaker
Is there some new skill set that you're looking to learn?
00:56:22
Speaker
What is currently driving you?
00:56:24
Speaker
You know, the drive is to make an impact on people's lives, right?
00:56:28
Speaker
How big an impact can you leave on the society for the better of society?
00:56:33
Speaker
The voice of an Indian who does not know English is not heard on the internet today, right?
00:56:37
Speaker
So can we enable that and create a huge impact on the society is what is driving and me in particular.
00:56:43
Speaker
So that's what makes me, you know, strive hard and do it.
00:56:52
Speaker
So that was Aparamir Radhakrishna telling us about his ventures, Vocal and Koo.
00:56:58
Speaker
You can find out more about them on www.vocal.in and www.cooapp.com.
00:57:03
Speaker
That's k-o-o-a-p-p.com.
00:57:26
Speaker
If you like the Founder Thesis podcast, then do check out our other shows on subjects like marketing, technology, career advice, books, and drama.
00:57:40
Speaker
Visit thepodium.in that is T-H-E-P-O-D-I-U-M dot I-N for a complete list of all our shows.
00:57:53
Speaker
This was an HD Smartcast original.