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Who is threatening Sounders’ Leagues Cup hegemony?
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The Sounders are sitting atop the MLS table in Leagues Cup, thanks in large part to their 7-0 leg in Round 1. We asked Charles Boehm onto the show to discuss the larger situation.
Follow Charles on BlueSky and read him on MLSsoccer.com.
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Transcript
Introduction of Will Bruin's new podcast role
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart podcast network. Here we go. Come on. Hey, O'Shaan.
00:00:13
Speaker
Let's go. What a sorry, Bud Fry.
Seattle Sounders' MLS Cup victory celebration
00:00:18
Speaker
The Seattle Sounders have done it. MLS Cup winners. Here comes Rui Diaz through the middle to crowd it for Seattle.
00:00:28
Speaker
The Saunders rule the region! Seattle Saunders is good! This feels fucking awesome. And Portland can't say it's genius! Nice work on your little
00:00:46
Speaker
Ooch of a gooch! All creatures great and small! Villaviga!
00:00:54
Speaker
me
00:00:59
Speaker
you know What was the thought process in terms of who you decided to use and you didn't? Ever since I wrote a commentary that we didn't take the overcome seriously.
Sponsorship by Full Pull Wines
00:01:18
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters.
00:01:32
Speaker
They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, Pacific Northwest.
Engaging discussion on the Leagues Cup
00:01:42
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Nos Adietes on the Sounder Heart Podcast Network. I am Jeremiah O'Shan. Joining me today for what we're going to call how the phase was won, because this is normally how the West was won. But since we're talking League's Cup, we're going to about phase one. Anyway, i guess phase one is a pun as well.
00:02:03
Speaker
Charlie Boehm, one of ah my favorite people to have on this program. Charlie, welcome to the show. Hell yes. Wow. The, the ocean blessing. I'm so fortunate.
00:02:14
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. I'm, I'm over here unfazed. I'm just trying to stay unfazed. Yeah, I know. no I, it is So, yeah, I want to talk basically about, uh, leagues cup because it's been, i think it's been pretty fun. Now. I don't, I don't know how many, i don't know how the attendance is shaping up quite how MLS and league at Mac ease had imagined, but I think the people who are going, who have been watching,
00:02:38
Speaker
have probably been pretty entertained, mostly exciting games, games that have a lot of intrigue, lots of red cards, lots and lots of red cards, ah plenty of penalty shootouts, mostly really competitive games, but we may as well, you know, I don't, we don't have to spend too much time talking about the Sounders first game, but just real quick, what is your, like, to me, the Sounders seem like they have been the best team so far in this tournament.
00:03:05
Speaker
Obviously, the seven zero win is doing a lot of the lifting, but I thought it was a very professional win over Santos Laguna yesterday. Yeah, I mean, you could quibble, I guess, after the goal Iata in the first game that that they they let Santos hang around a little bit, but that would be yeah so sure quibbling. all And I'll have to say, too, ah the whole Georgie Menungu ah shirt,
00:03:28
Speaker
Shirt sending off Jersey based ejection adds another, like a delightful, like there's been a thread of weirdness through the league. Yes. Going back to its earliest days when it was a, a one-off experiment with like eight teams per league or something.
00:03:42
Speaker
um There's always been that, that, that after dark element. And and there was an, yeah, that was the first year was the raccoon year, right? Or whatever. Yes. And I believe Mike had, he's, uh, there There was the cat on the pitch. There was Mike Petkey having an absolute career like career changing meltdown about the refereeing. Pass him out, Trey, right?
00:04:04
Speaker
I think so. And writing ah writing an insult on a piece of paper and handing it to the referee. If I'm remembering right. A Spanish insult that will get anyone canceled then and now. Oh, man. Done in the way that he did it. So, yeah, it doesn't seem – I guess I'm sounding like an OG here, although wasn't that long ago.
Leagues Cup vs Club World Cup comparison
00:04:25
Speaker
But, yeah, you know, actually I've come to see League's Cup as kind of living in the same awkward but durable space as the Club World Cup where –
00:04:35
Speaker
it's, it's has all these elements of AstroTurf and, and, um, purists, uh, you know, discussed because it's, it's perceived as something new and imposed by the executives and a cash grab and so forth. But like both of the tournaments are,
00:04:52
Speaker
like when it actually gets started and there's interesting stuff happening on the field and you see the space that it's that filling or that what that what it's bringing that's different, I think it's got legs whether we whether we approve of that or not.
00:05:05
Speaker
And so um i'm you know it's part of my job to cover this tournament, but I've i've found it sort of
Impact of diverse fan bases on game atmosphere
00:05:10
Speaker
intriguing. And I i do just think, um yeah, you know we'll get into the attendance stuff a little bit here. I think you know there's been some disappointing moments crowds and some some non-energetic environments. But then when you watch like RSL America, it's meica ah fantastic game, pretty good crowd, pretty interesting dynamic. I think when when Liga MX clubs bring out a different sort of supporter or maybe as supporters who are not going to the MLS games in their local market.
00:05:36
Speaker
And it's like a challenge, both implicit and and and active sort of to to what the MLS teams have done, right? It's it's making noise in your home stadium It's coming in and and maybe the teams feel like or act like the home team or, or you know you know, drawing a different level out of players.
00:05:53
Speaker
I think there's just a different energy to some of these games, which is different from what you would get in a typical Wednesday night at this time of the league season. Yeah, i mean, I'll just talk about what I've seen in person, and that's been Cruz Azul and Santos Laguna fans showing up to Seattle.
00:06:09
Speaker
Cruz Azul fans, I think, probably didn't outnumber Sounders fans on Thursday, but they were very vocal And there were times in the game where they were more, you could hear them better because they had a more organized, like the Sounders, like the ECS was just not there in numbers really, especially for the Cruz Azul match.
00:06:29
Speaker
And so there wasn't the same sort of organization to the Sounders chance. Whereas Cruz Azul fans all sort of seem to be born with these knowledge of, the chance. So like everyone there knows the chance to do and how to do them.
00:06:43
Speaker
And so there were moments in the game where it it had a, almost a road like atmosphere and Santos Aguino, not as organized, not as plentiful of visiting fans for that game, but they were still very vocal and you could hear them at times.
00:06:59
Speaker
ah But I, I think the energy in the stadium was good. It was, you know, there was about 17, 17, 17, 18,000 maybe for the Santos Laguna game. There was about 23,000, the 23,000 for the, for the, the Cruz Azul game.
00:07:14
Speaker
What actually felt very robust and it felt like a good atmosphere. It helps that the Sounders poured in seven goals. So there was a lot to get excited about, but, You know, when there were big moments in the Santos Laguna match that it got it got up, it was i love the vibe and the energy that comes from playing these international matches.
00:07:35
Speaker
And even if it it hasn't isn't that way at every stadium, you can still see why people want this to work. yeah Yeah, and it's the just a different sort of competition. I mean, I think the players benefit from ah from playing different opponents.
00:07:53
Speaker
ah There's just a different soccer culture that you're encountering with League MEC East teams. And even the the penalty kick tiebreakers, it's sort of fun that they've – they They sort of semi-stole slash debuted this idea in MLS Next Pro, and now it's in League's Cup. and it's so give I think i think if you're if you're supporting a team that's going to play in the playoffs, or even if you think about it from national team perspective,
00:08:19
Speaker
Knowing that someday there's going to be ah you could have a ah player in ah in a World Cup knockout match having to take a penalty kick.
Debating tournament format and improvements
00:08:25
Speaker
Like, I think that's super fun. A good, good experience to to have to deal with that, ah to step up to the mark and deal with that environment. And of course, it's an interesting, entertaining entertainment product. I think, but you know, obviously the format has shifted.
00:08:38
Speaker
They're going to continue, I think, tweaking this to make it fit into the calendar the best it can. um But but there's there's something there, where you know, and I think i think it's it's intriguing. and And also, too, the simple fact that we're late enough in the regular season now that it's over in the league for a lot of teams. And this gives you something to play for. It gives some new life. It gives fans a reason to come out. And I mean, look look at the Galaxy. Like, they they look like a very different team. Yeah.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the Galaxy looked like one of the... I mean, I guess they ended up falling at the end to Cruz Azul and they they lost the the penalty shootout it as well. But, you know, they win their first game five to two They were beating Cruz Azul for ah good chunk of that match yesterday.
00:09:19
Speaker
And they are playing... Like you said, they look like a different team and they actually have something to play for. They actually... I don't know how many people realize this. If they advance, they have hosting rights for as long as they stay in the tournament, courtesy of winning MLS Cup last year, which seems a little backwards. I have to admit, we were literally just
Hosting privileges confusion in the Leagues Cup
00:09:38
Speaker
in the Discord of the Sounder at Heart Discord trying to figure out The hosting privileges, which are not super clear, like we're digging through the rule book and trying to understand how hosting privileges work for the next round.
00:09:51
Speaker
And it's not 100 percent clear. i think there are a bunch of team. There are like six League of Mechies teams that would host host with quotes around it. in the, in the quarterfinals, even though it would be played at an MLS stadium, but it's sort of squishy because leagues cup has the right to sort of move the games to wherever they want the games to be played. So like, there's sort of like, it almost looks to me like if Seattle, because they have one of the more reliable, ah fan bases to show up to these things, if they are in a knockout stage game and they're not playing the galaxy and they're maybe not playing club America uh,
00:10:30
Speaker
ah cruzazool they might ah just decide that the sounders are hosting regardless uh so i don't know it's very very opaque i guess is the the right phrase of this mean but go ahead no the format in general is like nobody's really i'm sure i'm sure there's i mean i don't maybe this isn't the first time ever that a format like this has been utilized but it's a very unique unprecedented around here right if you Like it's just, they borrowed, like the system is broadly, like very, very broadly borrowed from what they call the Swiss format, right? Where they, where the thing that they're using in Europe, where it's this like modified table that they're, they're doing where it's not a traditional group stage.
00:11:13
Speaker
And it's like in the most vague sense, it's borrowed from that, but it is not the same. It is not at all the same, like what they're playing in, in champions league and in Europa league and,
00:11:23
Speaker
ah what What's the other conference league? I think it's called conference. Yeah, it doesn't matter conference. Yeah, whatever. Anyway, they it's but you're I don't think anyone else is using this exact format where you have 18 versus 18 and then you it go to a quarterfinal.
00:11:40
Speaker
And let's talk about the format a little bit. I like it on paper. I like that you have all as many MLS versus League of Mechies matchups as possible. I think that is the whole point of this tournament.
00:11:53
Speaker
Why not maximize it? I think what we're going to end up with, though, is in round three, a lot of more dead rubber games than is ideal. Like a bunch of games between teams that have because there are only four teams from each conference, each league advancing.
00:12:12
Speaker
There's a bunch of teams that are effectively already eliminated, and that's probably not ideal, but. The tradeoff is you get you you get a bunch of games against interleague games and it moves reasonably quickly. Like this is not I think one of the biggest challenges with the old format was that it was a month out of your season and that felt like a big as Yeah.
00:12:36
Speaker
And the so, you know, MLS gets until a much lesser extent, but ever since they paused ProRel, League MX as well get get knocked for not having enough stakes to the regular season, right? And that there's too much tolerance for mediocrity and so forth.
00:12:51
Speaker
Well, this is an extremely demanding format. And and the fact that you're one here, no one's actually sure what it's going to take to advance. So you could be in really good... I mean, there's only...
00:13:01
Speaker
but I know we we have a few more, you know, not everyone has played twice, um but we're fairly deep. hass everyone? Okay. Sorry. I couldn't remember. twice So, so we're well into the, into phase one here and there's only three of the 36 teams have taken full points. Like I'm, I'm, I'm just shocked by that.
00:13:18
Speaker
You know, that's just yeah this interesting quirk with the the PK um points aspect of it. So, you know, you may find out that you're that that game where you conceded a second or first or second game where you you leak a late equalizer, you know, and you drop a point or two. you know does Does that wreck your chances or not? Well, you kind of have to stick around and see what happens.
00:13:37
Speaker
maybe Maybe this is all of ah ah fiendishly clever plot to make as many fan bases as possible pay attention to as much of the the other teams' games as possible because i think the Sounders and the Timbers can feel pretty good about their advancement prospects.
00:13:52
Speaker
But everybody's going to have to be scoreboard watching. Right. You can't be certain. yeah Right. i think that And that is one of the – like at the high end of the of the competition in terms of like – who like the, who's going to actually advance has a fair amount of intrigue because there, no one has their spots. Like, I don't, I don't think any team in the whole tournament has clinched, has actually clinched advancement,
00:14:18
Speaker
as the, at the end of round two of phase one, right? So you have a whole bunch of teams that don't know what's going to happen at the bottom of the table. You do have more teams than is probably ideal who aren't going to be playing, who know they're already out, but the stakes are very real for all the teams at the top end. And I guess maybe that's a good trade off where the Sounders, even though they won their first two games that they won the first game, seven, zero,
00:14:46
Speaker
really cannot rest on their laurels. There's a ah pretty plausible scenario where if they were to lose against Tijuana and in round in round three, that they could not advance because there are something like, I think there there are nine teams who can get to at least seven points.
00:15:04
Speaker
which you would imagine four of the, it's not hard to imagine that at least four of those would get to seven points. And if, you know, all, you know, so basically half the teams, if half the teams, when half of these, you know, nine teams, these eight teams that aren't the Sounders were to win, the Sounders would be in a position where they have to at least get a point from their, their final game.
00:15:23
Speaker
And there'll be one of the last teams to play. So anyway, it's, I do think you're right that at the stakes at the high end of this table are but,
00:15:33
Speaker
It's just, I don't know if he you know there does end up being for a tournament. There ends up being a lot of games that just have no value at all. Yeah, I do. I do. I'll take that, I think, for one round um over that past scenario where you you had everybody was cramming in games through a one chunk of the summer, and the these the pat previous two seasons. right And then if things don't go well for you in League's Cup, you're sitting around, sitting on your hands, right? and that's Yes, i this is better.
00:16:01
Speaker
I totally agree with you. This is a better format than, than the previous one. It'll be interesting to see how they tweak it. It's going to be interesting, you know, and it it is funny also how it swings from one day to the next of, Oh, MLS is clearly the better as has, is dominating this thing. And then league and Mechies comes back.
00:16:19
Speaker
Like ah yesterday, the Sounders were the only MLS team to actually win their game out of the six that were played. I also kind of dig that it I think it's been six games every day, which does lead to a fun sort of there's a real momentum to this tournament, I think.
00:16:37
Speaker
Yeah, it has that tournament feel where you can where you're kind of... There's ah a deluge and a complimentary sense of of matches in the early rounds. And maybe you know you can catch the can catch the spirit a little bit and keep an eye on what's happening elsewhere. And they've got the you know enough of a time zone spread and whatnot. And ah i think again, I think just like so we talked about with CWC, it just sort of charms you, right? Because there's there's inevitably storylines and stuff happening and and the teams are up for it. you I still think that the dynamics...
00:17:07
Speaker
I love having 18-18 rather than having the the weird clunky you know yeah fullness of the MLS. And I think these are the kind of games that our players and coaches in MLS and everyone need need more of where you you know you see what that level is. There's some of these teams, even not even outside of the very wealthiest, most talent stacked elite in in Mexico – There's just a ah ah really, ah i think, a kind of a culture of craftsmanship and like a high technical level across these squads and and mistakes that you might get away with in an MLS game are are much more likely to get punished.
00:17:41
Speaker
I think those are just good experiences. And I love the culture clash element within that, too. Like you see some of the, mean, the Miami... I guess it was, forget what what was who did they played last. They played Nekoxa.
00:17:54
Speaker
And I mean, there was real needle to two teams that have no connection other than Fernando Gago having been ah ah you know a La Liga rival of the Barca boys in Miami. There was a real needle to the game and the the trash talking that ensued. like it was I thought it was a good entertainment product.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah, I guess if I were to tweak this a little bit more, I wonder if it would make sense to have maybe three fewer teams from each league just so you have that much more concentration.
Prospects of Mexican hosting for Leagues Cup
00:18:22
Speaker
But honestly, i i think I could live with this format. i'm I still want a little bit more clarity on how hosting works. I think ultimately... For this to this tournament to reach its full potential, there's going to have to be some games being played in Mexico.
00:18:38
Speaker
I understand the reasons that they're not, which are mostly financial. My understanding is the Liga and Mequis teams want this tournament to be played in the United States because this is the way that they are reaching new fans and and all these reasons. But if we want this to be a really competitive tournament, it does feel like there's probably going to be some tweaks that will have to happen.
00:18:57
Speaker
But this is, i think, undeniably format-wise a step in the right direction. for a more competitive tournament.
00:19:06
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:20:58
Speaker
But moving into the actual play, who has impressed you other than obviously the sounders have been the most impressive team. You don't need to go on about them unless you want to, uh, yeah but who else is it Who else have you liked? What have you liked from this tournament? who is Who are the teams that you feel like have shown the most potential to you know potentially win this thing?
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah, so um the Timbers have looked like kind of a different squad. Okay, this show's over. Sorry, going to be canceling the show now. ha ha. Well, listen, think of this as ah as scouting, right? Because it's quite possible. You could have a Cascadia final here, right?
00:21:38
Speaker
Oh, my God. That would be kind of amazing. i amazing and that I would be into that. i'd be I might be into that. A League's Cup final between the Sounders and Timbers. I might be able to get into that.
00:21:50
Speaker
ah Speaking of which, the yeah the red card that Carrethro picked up against Timbers, Pretty like as like I realized maybe the Sounders can't cast stones.
00:22:04
Speaker
Georgie Manungu picked up a red card for ah celebration. That's bad. But the the complete crash out the of the Carrethro player who got two yellows for descent on the same play.
00:22:17
Speaker
yeah even yeah every Every player who takes a red has to feel a certain amount of guilt when they you know when they're play when their teammates come into the locker room afterwards write about what they've inflicted on them.
00:22:28
Speaker
But I think Manungu can hold his head a little higher given the circumstances. did score a winning goal. Yeah. I mean, the just absolute rush of blood to the head. i'm going to look up, I had the kid's name. track act he's ah He's a good player. it was, it was uncharacteristic as far as from my that limited knowledge, but um just ah the brutal timing so early in the match and to just ah saddle his teammates with, you know, they're already far from home playing against a team with some life um and to just,
00:23:02
Speaker
get get crushed that way was just just brutal. i mean, that's that's one where you're, you know, you're buying, you're buying drinks or or whatever it may be for the foreseeable future. His teammate comes up to him and is like, what are you doing? Like, this was all I not believe that.
00:23:18
Speaker
i mean, and if if anyone missed it, basically what happens is the we should I guess we should figure out who this was that did it. But parallelism is the guy's name. OK, so he goes in, he makes a tackle.
00:23:29
Speaker
it's It's a questionable tackle, but whatever. The the ref blows the whistle. He gets up and he immediately spikes the ball in the ref's face and the ref shows him a yellow card.
00:23:41
Speaker
And then instead of just like, right, no question. Objective play, yeah. And then immediately he just is in the ref's face again. Like, no, not not even a ah beat of what am i what am I doing here? I need to chill out.
00:23:55
Speaker
He's just like, no, I'm going for it. I'm getting my money's worth. And he just goes into it again. And the ref is just like, well, you're going to kick – I'm kicking you out. Like, what do you – Yeah, what did you think it was going to happen there? Yeah, Jonathan Parowat says his name.
00:24:09
Speaker
The guy's 27 years old. He's been with Carretaro for most of the last five years. like It's just just a crazy a crazy break breakdown to have happen. And his teammates credit, I mean, that was the 45th minute.
00:24:27
Speaker
So to play more than half the game down, they probably were right there. They were probably the better. Yeah, I thought they were. Yeah. ah To the degree that, you know, you can say you're frustrated. The Sounders let Santos hang around. They were at least playing 11 v 11 the whole time.
00:24:42
Speaker
he's got tim But at the end of the Timbers are the only team in, in the whole tournament who have not allowed a goal yet. ah You know, you can, I think you can make, you can make light of the fact that they managed to score four goals on four shots against San Luis.
00:24:58
Speaker
They got, you know, Whatever you can argue about the, the XG and all that stuff, but look, you score four goals, even if it's only on four shots, that's what you you get to spoils. They haven't allowed a goal yet. I agree with you. There are a team that has to be reckoned with who else is on here that you are impressed by so far.
00:25:16
Speaker
Yeah, so considering they've only they've only taken three points from the first two matches, ah Club America, again, the way we've though I find myself thinking about them the way that we have Inter-Miami over the last year and a half, where ah when when you have a team with that much quality and ah and a winning culture,
00:25:36
Speaker
within the locker room, like you have to, you have to pour dirt on them. I mean, they've, they've rallied repeatedly. They've always, they've got this resourcefulness. You you can tell that they've been in in, tough situations before they've rallied. So considering they're sitting 10th, you know, in the, in the, in the league MX table, and they're going to have to play well and get a, get a result um to, to have a chance to advance. um Club America, I think is, is troublesome. Of course, it's, it's, it's a no brainer to say the same thing about Tigris.
00:26:06
Speaker
yeah Los Gigantes are Los Gigantes, right? Like Tigres have taken full points. They haven't looked super troubled. um these Again, these teams, the the elite of of Mexico um are so used to playing big games, right? They typically are going to, they have the playoff experience from the Ligia format.
00:26:24
Speaker
they're most Most of them are involved regularly in CockyCamp Champions Cup. They are accustomed to coming to play in the U.S. like they've they've They've experienced all this before. They're they're never short on talent.
00:26:35
Speaker
um And the way that this falls in the League MX calendar, you know they're not too worn down. right They just got a few a few games in before ah into the the league season before they they flew up to the U.S. to get involved in this. So I think it works out well.
00:26:50
Speaker
You know, managers have reasons to to go to go for it here, especially those those wealthier, um more successful teams. so So I think they've been quite good. Toluca, same thing. I mean, they got pushed a little harder, but you see the quality and the pedigree. And I think i think there's that we may get that familiar sinking feeling when the quarterfinals actually kick off. I think it's on the 19th because yeah for a lot of these teams, you just survive to get to those high leverage moments.
00:27:17
Speaker
And then once you're there... I mean, they're not going to care who they're playing. there's beside And especially now, if we there's a you know it's I think it's going to be tough. It doesn't sound like was a serious hamstring strain for Messi, but I'll be surprised um if he'll be back in in the next few weeks in time for a potential quarterfinal game.
00:27:36
Speaker
So you know even ah outside of Messi, there's really no one, I don't think in... in MLS or any atmosphere atmosphere it's going to truly like give pause to the Mexican giants.
00:27:48
Speaker
And so they know you know they know when to pour it on. They know when the games matter most, so when the moments matter most. And they don't even have to win the games, right? They win the moments and that takes them where they need to go in the games.
00:27:59
Speaker
um So I think there's a little bit of a probably maybe maybe feeling a CONCACAF champions vibe in a couple of weeks here. Potentially, yeah. with and And again, like maybe Toluca is less of a pedigree ah ah in CONCACAF, but I think they'll be right there.
00:28:14
Speaker
the the The fascinating thing is that the other two, two other teams above the... the qualification line right now on the Mexican side are Juarez and Mazatlan, who are not gigantes. they're they're above above their expectations right now. And can they sustain that? Can they can they can they have that kind of LA Galaxy type vibe right now or or the way Miami were two years ago, where it's like, hey, this is what we've got. like We're we're we're not we were're not assured of being in these situations very often, so let's go for it.
00:28:46
Speaker
Well, and Juarez is a particularly interesting team because this is sort of, you know, I don't love the term project when we're talking about ah clubs and and sort of what they're doing. But Juarez is sort of a project. They're sort of a expansion team from the U.S., North America, you know, like the hour from how we view of it.
00:29:07
Speaker
they aren't This year is not their first year, but they are very much a newer team. I think they've only been um in existence for like 10 years. And they they did gain promotion from ah back in the days when they when they did have promotion and relegation in Mexico.
00:29:21
Speaker
And they have historically not been very good, but they are this team that is sort of digging into a well of... of potential talent. Juarez is, of course, like the sister city to El Paso.
00:29:34
Speaker
They have historically been cities that are very connected. and And so there's just, it's always been seen as sort of having potential. And they and my understanding is they've, in the last couple of years, they've really dug into this youth movement And they have been able to be much more competitive in recent years than they had been in the early phases of their promotion when they were really sort of like struggling at the bottom of the Liga Ameki's table.
00:30:00
Speaker
And they have gotten a couple impressive results so far this in this tournament. Yeah, it's ah when you look at it from ah the 10,000 foot view, it's just a fascinating scenario overall because um we, on both sides of the border, I think because of the border, we sort of marginalize that combined community. if you And if you were to combine El Paso and Juarez, I can't can't remember the exact place it would rank, but it would be one of the, I think one of the top biggest metropolises in North America. I mean, they it's it's two massive cities side by side that are only considered different because of the river that runs through it and all the different liminal aspects of that border, which is political, cultural, everything.
00:30:44
Speaker
And I think Mexico, Mexican soccer in general, and the and the decision makers have always seen that as an area of potential, right? It's growing. 2.7 million x people in the and the two cities combined.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah, and it's significant. and and it's And the same way that Tijuana, Club Tijuana, get everybody fired up, right? This idea of a cross-border project. And San Diego is now taking elements of that ah that are foundational in what they want to do.
00:31:09
Speaker
so But you know and they were... the There's potential there, but it's been very elusive in terms of of realizing it. The previous club, I think it Indios, I think it was their predecessor.
00:31:20
Speaker
that They tried this before and it it went belly up and it didn't shake out. And, you know, when there was, I think that was happening amid a much more, um ah there's still violence, of course, in the borderlands and and in too too much of it. But um the previous Juarez project you know kind of was even more embattled um by the cartels and and all the the repercussions of of the violence ah in that region.
00:31:45
Speaker
But if they if they can sort of get a foothold and start to build ah a fan base and and sort of build an identity, I think there's real potential there. The question is, can you get far enough into that? Because as you mentioned, experiencing the Cruz Azul supporters,
00:31:57
Speaker
I got a tiny version of this. 12 years ago, my wife and I eloped to Cancun to the Main Riviera to get married. And ah my wife, bless her heart, she she signed off on going to the Copa MX East final. The tournament no longer exists. They've since started it.
00:32:15
Speaker
But at the time, Atlante, which was a lower tier Mexico City club for many decades, and then they relocated to Cancun, have since relocated back because they didn't they didn't want to they couldn't make it work.
00:32:27
Speaker
But they happen to they they're in the second tier at this point, I think, but they reach the Copa MX final and Cruz Azul makes it too. And so I'm in this, the the stadium in Cancun is, it's like a worn out equivalent of an American high school stadium, really old weather, not much to it.
00:32:45
Speaker
And they apparently were giving tickets away for the league games. But then because Cruz Azul was in the final, this was a sellout, a hot ticket. And I discovered that like Cancun is like ah kind of like a Vegas element because there's all these people from all over Mexico that go there for economic opportunities to get jobs in the tourist sector.
00:33:01
Speaker
And so there's all the, it was a Cruz Azul home game basically. and we had to bargain for tickets on the street and all this is, I had a great experience, but I was realizing like, okay, so this whole idea of, of the, the big Mexican clubs, I mean, they cast lot of shadow even in their own country.
00:33:16
Speaker
And so. someplace like Juarez, you have to win over people who probably already have an existing allegiance. And so that's that's a challenge. But ah I mean, i it's like, I can't help but root for it. I mean, maybe it's my Texas roots or whatever, but um you know I hope they they can get some some traction with this tournament. And there's a couple of sort of like, ah hey, that guy. Yeah.
00:33:38
Speaker
um names on those on the roster. So anybody who's been watching MLS for a while, go go and look at it. Jesus Murillo of XLAFC is on the squad. um there's There's a couple other guys that you may that you may recognize um who have bounced around.
00:33:54
Speaker
ah Chris Aquino is a former Sounders Academy player. He played for he was actually the... I think he was the second leading scorer on defiance last year transferred to Juarez and he's playing. He's not, I don't think he's eligible for this tournament. i don't think he was named to their roster, but he is in the Juarez system.
00:34:10
Speaker
ah So to speak, he's in their youth setup ah basically, but, Yeah, it's an interesting project. They have these very bright green jerseys that they've won or worn. They beat Charlotte four to one in their first first game. And then they they scored a pretty impressive upset over Cincinnati in the shootout in this in this last round with ah their goalkeeper saving.
00:34:33
Speaker
Evander's penalty of all of all things. it was It was a pretty impressive performance, I thought, from Juarez. And Mossetlan is another team who is sort of similar story in that they are not as established of a um a team, but that's partly because they moved from...
00:34:51
Speaker
Where did they move from? Morelia. Morelia. Oh, there were yeah that's right that's There's a Rui Diaz tie-in here. so and And an Obed Vargas tie-in as well because yeah yeah he grew up as a Morelia fan.
00:35:04
Speaker
ah But yeah, so it's Mazat Long. and is it And they've also not been historically very good, but they are in this nice little run of form right now.
00:35:15
Speaker
ah they So who did they? They beat... um
00:35:20
Speaker
Gosh, im they they beat LAFC in an epic shootout. 11-10. And then they beat they beat Dynamo, ah which is not quite maybe not quite as impressive, but still i mean not not a bad win, especially on the road against Dynamo.
00:35:35
Speaker
In Houston. yeah In Houston, yeah, exactly. not Kind of up and down. i you know Just before we get out of here, I did want to touch on the attendances of this
Analysis of Leagues Cup attendance issues
00:35:47
Speaker
tournament.
00:35:47
Speaker
And i don't know. I'm of two minds. One of them is, look, I think if you give this tournament 20 years, let's just say, it inevitably feels like it will eventually – there is an inevitability to if they give this enough time that it's going to be popular. Yeah.
00:36:06
Speaker
But right now, I think the thing that struck me is like Charlotte played Chivas yesterday and it looked maybe not empty, but it was much lighter attended than I would imagine the organizers i matt imagined Chivas game. It literally anywhere in the United States would look like.
00:36:23
Speaker
Do you get a sense that this is a real concern that the attendance numbers are almost across the board? pretty bad even like I don't I haven't seen how it compares to last year but I know last year they were acting like 17 they were averaging something like 17,000 a game and they acted like this was a great deal even though that's a lot less than a regular season game would average in MLS do you get any sense of of the feelings around the attendance
00:36:54
Speaker
it's It's always attendance in general. It's always a um ah sore spot, I would say. and it's something that ah certain clubs are very sensitive about and and and don't like to get into. And and i i don't I confess, like and and I think it would probably be hard to, you'd have to really report actively, ah extensively and talk to a lot of people and get highly placed people to, to, to share the data.
00:37:22
Speaker
um And I don't think they'd be super inclined to, but I don't know how they're calculating this because if you see a game, ah league game and you look at the number on the match report, it's, it's going to always include, you know, tickets distributed is, is the, is the famous phrase, right. And, and, and season ticket holders and stuff. I don't know.
00:37:40
Speaker
the the details in terms of like what's, you know, how many season ticket holders are being counted and so forth. On paper, the Chivas Charlotte game got 24,207. Which is not horrible now just not a horrible number It's not bad. it's i don't and i Watching that the segments of that game that I watched, it was kind of it seemed like it was rattling around in in what is an NFL-sized stadium. right i mean that is That's a huge stadium. they They typically aren't opening up the upper deck.
00:38:09
Speaker
and I don't know how they handle that on the day-to-day. I know a lot of stadiums will not even open that up until they have to, whereas others, if they can particularly if you have a game like that, maybe where you think you'll get a big walk-up,
00:38:20
Speaker
you know Maybe you open everything up to to try to offer um more affordable tickets in the upper sections. They've gotten kind of creative. I thought it was interesting in the brief time where they had their own TV contract for the Apple. They kicked in Charlotte. We're doing enhanced reality.
00:38:35
Speaker
That's right. They were. Placements on the upper deck. and kind of like I forgot about that. Giving us a little taste of the future, possibly, with with how they sort of ah coped with the... um the upper empty up there section. So, so I don't know. And I think that what's probably the starkest to me has been the New York games where, you know, the, the, the games are at Red Bull, both um NYC, I think has played, mean, they're not using the baseball parks as far as I know, before all the costs and availability reasons.
00:39:03
Speaker
So everybody knows that's inherently awkward to have NYCFC playing at Red Bull at sports illustrated stadium, FKA ah Red Bull arena. And, and Red Bull has an attendance challenge,
00:39:13
Speaker
to start with their own fans talk about it more than anyone. It's a beautiful venue and there's not enough people in it on a week to week basis. And then I don't think you're, mean, I think she, and then, you know, Ohio too is where one of the, I think Chivas was based, maybe Chivas or Monterey were using Ohio, um maybe Cincy as one of their bases. So I'm sure there's a mix of both like what they would ideally, where they'd want to ideally want to be for, for demographics reasons versus logistical simplicity. Cause like,
00:39:43
Speaker
you know Again, mexican big Mexican clubs can draw anywhere, but but New York is maybe not quite the same density as as somewhere in the Southwest. And some of them are are more bulletproof than others. I think you would assume that Chivas would be able to pull from anywhere. Yeah.
00:40:00
Speaker
And North Carolina is is a different story from New York. so um So, yeah, it's it's tricky. And I think you get, again, into a gray area where are you are you focused on making this a spectator experience, first and foremost? are you going to Is this emphasized to be a television and broadcast product?
00:40:20
Speaker
Or are you going to try and split split that baby? ah right And i think there's I think there's challenges built into that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, it it it definitely is. And it'll be interesting to see how they how they evolve that aspect of it. Because, like, I don't know, one of the the other things I noticed yesterday was, or or maybe it wasn't yesterday, but the Cincinnati game against Juarez, they didn't actually, best I can tell, they didn't actually announce the attendance. And that was ah a game where, for Cincinnati, who seems like they draw...
00:40:53
Speaker
Well, like butts in seats are one of the best butts in seats sort of teams. Yes. And that looked like a really empty crowd for Juarez. They were, that was part of a double header, I think, where ah Monterey was playing Red Bull for some reason.
00:41:08
Speaker
I think that game was also at Cincinnati. Yeah. That's part of the seeding process. Yeah. Right. And they, and they didn't best I can tell they didn't announce an attendance for that one either. ah So it's, i don't know.
00:41:19
Speaker
there are some kinks to work out, I think. And, and I, I would be fascinated to know if this tournament is getting eyeballs on TV and streaming, right?
00:41:29
Speaker
that maybe be the league games aren't because that would be another way of they can sort of justify it. That's something we will probably get even less information on. Although there are a bunch of games that are on broadcast television that presumably will have real...
00:41:42
Speaker
you know, vetted rating numbers. So who knows, maybe and that's a big, that's a big element of this. um Sorry to cut you off, Jeremiah, but like the games that I think it's Univision is picking up some of the games for Spanish language television.
00:41:55
Speaker
And that's, that's a key data point, not just, not just whether we get a ratings figure off, off of those, but also like the games they pick and the times and the teams that are involved. um Because that's,
00:42:06
Speaker
you know i think we've it's been established in the in these couple of years we've been talking about the Apple TV deal, um offering a sim the equivalent of a simulcast basically right to the TV networks is not necessarily the most attractive thing from there. but when they So when they do pick it up, I think that sends tells us a little something about like those networks approach.
00:42:27
Speaker
to to the tournament in general and then and then how they how they value different fixtures within it. So the fact that they're I know that they're to have the final on I mean, for me, that's just huge. like you know I think people within MLS are slowly have been coming around to the reality of ah the the visibility problem that's inherent to the to the season pass deal.
00:42:51
Speaker
And every time you can get that your any of your any segment of your product, anything you're doing onto the the more mainstream television otr and OTA excuse me environment, I think that's that's really
Insights from Charlie Boehm on MLS and Leagues Cup
00:43:06
Speaker
important. And if nothing else, that you know this can get get joggged jog the the the mainstream audience just a tad.
00:43:13
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, Charlie, it's been great catching up with you. Once again, I appreciate you lending us your sort of more national voice to talk about phase one of Leagues Cup.
00:43:26
Speaker
Maybe we'll have you back on as we get deeper into this tournament, assuming the Sounders are around and we still care. But Charlie, e you got anything going on that you want to make sure to share? I hear you are now starting to be on. You were so on scuffed again.
00:43:40
Speaker
Yes. um i'm i'm ah this The Scuffed crew had me on earlier today. I'm hoping to to spend a little more time with them maybe every now and again. So i hope anybody will come and come and check that out.
00:43:53
Speaker
you know It's obviously from a US Men's National Team perspective, but we kind of wander around a little bit. So hopefully it's hopefully it's a compelling listen for um for a broader audience also. And And then, yeah, we got just a few games to go. the stretch run, and MLS cranks up here. And and before we know it, we'll be into the the international windows of the fall as well. so you know how crazy it gets over the next few months. I'll just try to get put myself out out and about and and appreciate everybody who listens and clicks as always.
00:44:24
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, ah Charlie, thanks again for coming on. ah This is No Saudietes, part of the Sounder Heart Podcast Network. I will just remind everyone that we are that August is a huge ah membership month for us. This is a month where 30%, believe it or not, of our annual revenue comes in in August.
00:44:44
Speaker
So just want to encourage everyone to... ah Check on your membership. Make sure it's up to date. Make sure that you have... And if you want to become a member, this is a great time to do it. oh Just another reminder that if you want to become a member, all paid members have access to our ad-free RSS feed, which is a nice little perk.
00:45:04
Speaker
and ah yeah if you want And thank you for everyone who is supporting us already. Thank you to for making this possible. This is a lot of fun. I love this project. I love being able to have people like Charlie on and talk about...
00:45:15
Speaker
all kinds of things. And with all that said, I'm Jeremiah O'Shann. to get out of here. we will catch you next time.
00:45:46
Speaker
I expect the LAFC who is motivated ah to prove themselves at home, to prove to their fans that that they're capable of winning in this league. And it's up to us to really ruin the party.
00:46:02
Speaker
i feel a lot better than