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Ben Burgess | Always going to be me
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Ben Burgess joins James fresh off the back of a course-record win at the Kunanyi Mountain Run 66K — a race that felt like the culmination of a two-month journey through the trails, the community, and the soul of Tassie trail running.
But this conversation is so much more than just a race recap. We talk about what it really means to go all-in on running, giving yourself the space to chase it without letting it consume you.
Ben shares the mindset shift that helped him ditch the pressure, trust the process, and run with joy. He opens up about leaving his job, embracing a year of “fun-employment,” and why it’s not just about results — it’s about presence, place, and people.
We dig into:
– Pre-race prep and trusting your energy more than your training block
– The moment he knew it was his race to lose
– Nutrition breakthroughs and dialing in recovery
– The tension between being a competitor and staying grounded in joy
– Why community-run races and nature-first values matter to him
– Big goals, World Champs ambitions, and keeping it playful even at the pointy end
If you care about racing hard without losing why you started, this episode is going to hit deep.
***Don’t forget, use code PPP at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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Transcript
Introduction and Ben's Achievements
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peak Pursuits podcast. My name is James Sieber and today i sat down with Benjamin Burgess. Ben is a name that has most likely become a bit more familiar to you over the last 12 to 18 months.
00:00:28
Speaker
In 2024, he took victories at Hut2Hut 50k, Wilson's Prom, Berry Long Run, Wonderfalls, Mount Macedon, and Great Ocean Trail Ultra, setting a couple of course records along the way.
00:00:40
Speaker
He also took a second at the GPT 100 miler and a fourth at Buffalo Stampede 100k at the start of the year. In 2025, he set a fourth at Cradle Mountain, first at Gone Nuts 50k, first at Takaina Ultra and most recently set the course record at the Kanani Mountain Run sixty six k This is a guy that's come into the sport with a lot of enthusiasm, desire to learn, and is a genuine scholar of what running as a whole is.
00:01:10
Speaker
The conversation today with Ben was a really interesting one and one that i loved getting to know and discovering who he is, who he was, and what his goals are for the sport.
00:01:21
Speaker
Ben is definitely not afraid to share his opinions, his views, and who really who he is. And that allowed this conversation to take on a life of itself. I really hope you enjoy listening to this one.
00:01:32
Speaker
It will be coming out on Good Friday, so happy Easter to everybody listening to it over this weekend. And with that, it's time to get to the conversation with Ben. Ben Burgess, welcome to the Peepershoots podcast. How are you doing today?
Tasmania Adventures and Kanani Mountain Run
00:01:44
Speaker
James, I am wonderful. I'm back in sunny Rye, Victoria um after a nice sit down in Tassie. So yeah, life's good. Continues to be good.
00:01:55
Speaker
You were down in Tassie for quite a while. Two months. Two beautiful months. And Tassie's a place that i will always go to and return to But I've finally given myself the gift of ah long enough period of time to tick off a bunch of things that were bucket list races, hikes, and finally just getting back to resting and being back out in nature and restoring the energy levels it's been great sounds incredible the culmination of that trip was the kanani mountain run ultra 66k which you came away with first place a new course record and from all accounts an incredible run it sounds like you executed it pretty much to perfection and had an incredible time doing so considering that is only last weekend as we were recording this
00:02:45
Speaker
I would like to start there and just please kind of take us through ah couple of days leading into it. Speak about any training you think is relevant for the race, but then just kind of like really give us a nice detailed run through of how the day went.
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um It was an interesting race. I think i I was nervous about this one and nervous about it being the A race and kind of knowing that the the races that I had down in Tassie in the lead up to this, um I placed importance on them, but I knew KMI was the big one.
00:03:19
Speaker
And I knew that The people that were going to do well there were likely the ones that knew the terrain well. So I guess the training started probably five, six weeks out when I first went down to Hobart on this trip and started getting eyes on the course.
00:03:33
Speaker
I did a ah training run with the KMR crew to get eyes on a section of the course that was private land. So it was really the only time you could recce this section. And over that six weeks, as I kind of came and went from Hobart, I was just attacking different sections of the course, making sure I knew the terrain.
00:03:51
Speaker
And it's it's super diverse, the way that they divide this course up into about six legs, every leg being different in terms of its elevation gain, whether it's up or down, the terrain, the technicality of it.
00:04:05
Speaker
um So super important to just get out there. And um I think it was three weeks out, I ran the Takaina Ultra and had a good day there.
00:04:17
Speaker
Came over the line in first, ah but didn't didn't really gas it. But I pulled up feeling a little bit, you know, like I'd just run an ultra. And yeah, I kind of started trying to get back into training and it just wasn't feeling great.
00:04:31
Speaker
My long runs were feeling really arduous. They were just feeling like they were taking longer than they should and I just wasn't moving with the kind of freedom that I like to move over this terrain. So ah kind of decided that it wasn't worthwhile putting in a ah training block in the lead up to kmr and that I was just going to put the legs up and make sure that I was showing up feeling rested and excited to run because After jamming so much racing in, ah just it was hard to get excited again.
00:05:04
Speaker
And I knew that I needed to be hyped for this race in order to compete to the best of my capabilities. So a week out, I decided to go and do a three-day hike up Frenchman's Cat.
00:05:16
Speaker
And... That's a notoriously difficult walk. ah But I knew that, you know, if I divided it over three days, that I wasn't putting too much strain on the body and and hopefully it was restoring the kind of internal batteries and those moral batteries.
00:05:37
Speaker
And when I got up to that summit, I just i was filled with the energy and the excitement that I knew i could bring into this race and that I knew would really benefit me. uh probably not the most typical route that people take pre-race but it was exactly what I needed and when I showed up on that start line the nerves had settled my anxiety wasn't there anymore and I was just so excited to run this race it speaks to the confidence there are not many people that would be able to take that step back have that reflective process especially from what I can understand you're self-coached that's correct yeah yeah so
00:06:16
Speaker
go through that that process ah reflection and working out what your body and your mind and your soul needs to have the confidence in you yourself as a runner, but also the understanding of you as a person to take that step back is,
00:06:30
Speaker
It's really impressive and I think it's something that so often we panic about trying to force the training in and that you miss those few days, whether it's you're sick or i spoke to Tyler Wyndham yesterday and his kid had gastro in the lead up to Buffalo.
00:06:44
Speaker
There's all these little things that you can't control, but you have to just be honest with yourself and go, this is this is the best thing for me right now. think that's really, really interesting to to to hear and evidently,
00:06:56
Speaker
It worked. Yeah, it did. And I think i I was definitely nervous about whether it would come together and whether I could pull it off. But I think as someone who is uncoached and unsponsored and kind of has...
00:07:12
Speaker
I mean, all of this pressure is on me. um There are no external factors. I have no reason to show up at a start line having paid to be there and put a lot aside to stand on that start line to at bare minimum, not just have an enjoyable stress-free day.
00:07:33
Speaker
Because, yeah, this this sport demands a lot of you, ah but it demands as much as you're willing to give it. And I want to give it a lot, but I'm not willing to give it my sanity.
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Which is where your best results will come. Because if it becomes 100% of your identity, there's too much there's too much weighing on it. There's too much pressure on it.
00:07:58
Speaker
Absolutely. And I look back at my best results and those results can be weighed in podiums and stats and whatever, but The most joyful days that I've had out there have been at the hands of just running with energy and love and gratitude for being outside because, you know, that's why we trail run.
00:08:22
Speaker
Definitely.
Passion, Strategy, and Nutrition in Racing
00:08:23
Speaker
And I noticed that looking back through some of your race recaps that even back in 2021, you finished, I don't actually remember the exact race, but you finished 26th.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah, and in the Surf Coast Century. Surf Coast Century. And that your debut 100th? Debut 100. I still think of that as my happiest and most accomplished, joyful finish line.
00:08:46
Speaker
And that's what really struck me is you had just as much energy in your post-race posts as you did recapping KMR or recapping the 142Ks or GPT that you got to do. like That is really cool. It doesn't matter you're 26th or 1st. The energy is the energy and the joy the joy. It's beautiful. I'd never take it for granted that my body is capable of doing these things. And, you know, whether it's whether it's 50K, whether it's it's...
00:09:17
Speaker
it's It's all incredible. and and And anyone who can do that should be so proud. So yeah, it doesn't matter whether you've you've run the 100 miles, like being able to show up and do 66Ks at KMR is just as special.
00:09:33
Speaker
And so we get to the start line of KMR, mind, soul, fully energized. What condition was the body in at that point? Because you've you've had a busy two months. Yeah, big time.
00:09:44
Speaker
ah The body, I mean, the base fitness was there. I'd raced three ultras in that kind of two-month span leading up. And definitely there was there's some work in the legs, but they felt good. And I'd been doing a lot of hiking, a lot of hill climbing because Tassie,
00:10:01
Speaker
in comparison to Brunswick East, where I live in Melbourne, has some serious hills and some serious mountains. And you can't really run more than a couple of k's without getting to a climb. So I felt like my climbing legs were in good shape.
00:10:15
Speaker
And I took off from that start line and it was just, I could tell from the beginning that it was going to be a good day. The energy was there. ah was moving with the lead pack and it was all feeling quite easy. I was i was hiking at the pace that they were running and I feel like early on in the race I made the decision to to move because the pace felt a little bit slow for what I thought I was capable of that day. And that just set the tone. And then i was I was just moving and running my own pace and it felt like that pace was going to be the winning pace and someone was going to have to do something pretty impressive to to kind of knock me off.
00:10:54
Speaker
In your post race post on Instagram, it was a beautiful, I'm going to say poem, but if there's a different word for that, let me say my my my context there is not very high, but there was this beautiful piece of writing.
00:11:07
Speaker
One of the bits that really stuck out to me, and i want to make sure this comes across from a positive light, was the fact that you said it was always going to be me. And two things crossed my mind at that point. and It was, is this the confidence that you would win, like innately, like you just knew that you were you were the big boy in that pack essentially. Or is it more referenced that at the end of the day, it's more that you're your own main competitor or is it something completely else?
00:11:34
Speaker
Am on the right track there? I think you're right on the right track. I think it's exactly both of those things. And yeah, that's what I was trying to get across was all of the external factors in that race were relevant. um Whether someone was going to beat me, whether I was going to have a good day or a bad day, it all comes down to how I'm feeling and what I can do in that moment.
00:11:53
Speaker
And I think back to my best results and I've just run my own race. and But when I think about in the lead up to this race and the expectations that I had on myself and that others were placing on me, you know, I listened to the free race podcast with you and Brody, you both picked me for the win. and And I was thinking to myself, what for what reason have you chosen me? You know, Andrew Gaskell is a three-time podium getter in this race in the three times it's been ran.
00:12:25
Speaker
He beat me at Cradle Mountain Ultra about two months earlier. And I was just going, for what reason is that? But there was so much... belief coming from all levels of the running community in kind of what I was building.
00:12:40
Speaker
and it took me until about halfway through that race to go, okay, no, this is, this is what I've manifested. This is what I was building towards. This is the A race. And of course it was always going to be like, you put your job on hold,
00:12:54
Speaker
you've gone all in on this thing, you've worked your bloody ass off. And so this is what happens when you do those things, when you make sacrifices and when you work hard and when it means so much, that's when these results happen.
00:13:11
Speaker
And we'll come back to the the work decision that you made at the end of last year, because I do really want to drill into that, but to keep the flow of the race going. At what point did you decide to...
00:13:22
Speaker
go okay now this is actually this pace is too within my comfort zone i want to see what i'm capable of today i'm going to push sure on how far through the race was that that was about five six k into the race when we were when we were climbing kunanyi and uh there are a few people hanging around a few names that i know i think of all the people that kind of joined me at the front of the pack throughout the race the only name that i ever was concerned about was andrew gaskill there I was joined at the top by Marcus Ellie, who we had some good chats early on, but he was telling me that this was his first ultra.
00:13:59
Speaker
And I feel like if you're telling someone at the beginning of a race, I'm just going, ah okay, cool. You know, it's nice to share these early miles with you, but God, we've got such a long way to go. And if that's uncharted territory for you, it's going to be hard to hang around for long.
00:14:14
Speaker
ah But yeah, I made a move up Kunanyi. I was feeling really good. i was hiking hard. And I just knew that if I was going to get this win, I kind of had to be on course record pace.
00:14:27
Speaker
And the weather of the day was really conducive to that. It was cool. if If it was precipitating, it wasn't raining. it was more just drizzling. So at every point of the race, we were cool, but the terrain was never too wet to be slippy and uncertain.
00:14:45
Speaker
So, yeah I just went Course record pace is going to be what I think of as the perfect race. And if I can get as much nutrition as I need in, then i can just run all day. And this is just goingnna it's going to be good.
00:15:00
Speaker
And do you have the splits written somewhere or in your head ah that point? I didn't have any splits in my head for aid stations. I think it was it was just too hard for me to wrap my head around that. What I did have was the the average pace that I would need to be on course record pace, which is really hard to get a gauge of because you do about 3,500
00:15:28
Speaker
meters of the climbing in about the first 50-55k. So by the time you get through that section, the average pace looks really slow.
00:15:38
Speaker
But at about the 55k mark, you get to a ah section of track called pipeline track, and it's the first kind of section of fire road that feels genuinely runnable.
00:15:49
Speaker
And I went, if I can get there with my average pace around seven minute pace, then i can just hot foot it and just see that tick down. And I got to ah go to that section of track and was doing like 410 average pace over 8K and just flying.
00:16:07
Speaker
felt really strong. To be able to do that, you must obviously have been feeling very good at that at that point. and Body's going well, mind's going well. Were there any no low moments throughout the race?
00:16:20
Speaker
There were no energy lows at all throughout the race. I felt like I had enough to give it any point. The only things that shook me were when Andrew Gaskell caught back up to me at about the 28k mark and it felt like he was making a move and he'd done a ah very similar thing when we race each other at Cradle Mountain Run ah and it paid off for him. He ended up putting 15 minutes into me but I think he burned a few matches trying to catch up in this race and as soon as we kind of joined each other, ah we hit a climb, I dug my poles in, he was going without poles and I could tell that they were really benefiting me versus him and that's when I was putting time into him and I knew that the use of poles on the climbs was going to save my legs for those later moments in the race when there were runnable sections and that's, I think, that really paid off because
00:17:13
Speaker
Yeah, I basically saved the legs from 3,500 meters of climbing and then had energy in them to run. If you were to put a like a percentage of energy saving that you feel like, if you were to do all that climbing without poles versus with poles, how much reckon it's saving you?
00:17:32
Speaker
I've looked at my splits with poles and without poles and I did this comparison in I did GSER 50 mile two years in a row and my time difference with and without poles was very minute I think ah went maybe 15 minutes quicker with poles but that was also with a year more of training in the bank I don't know if you're getting much
00:17:57
Speaker
if you're getting faster necessarily by using them, but the energy that I was saving felt greater. yeah and yeah And I guess my my climbing felt smoother as well over that less technical terrain. I didn't use them on any single track climbing. It was more on the kind of more wide open stuff when you have to think less about pole placement.
00:18:19
Speaker
But I think on this day, it really paid dividends.
00:18:24
Speaker
And you're getting, coming down, you say pipeline track was the last bit, yeah. You're coming down there. What are the emotions at that point? Oh, I have a ah hilarious habit of doing finish line visualizations about 10, 15 kilometers before the finish line.
00:18:44
Speaker
And that is when I become quite emotional. I think about what it's going to feel like to cross. what it's going to feel like to hug the people there and and celebrate what has been an epic run. So I was running down pipeline as fast as I could, listening to this live Daft Punk album, just feeling every bit like I was just in the zone and shed a little tear, pulled myself together,
00:19:14
Speaker
And when I looked at my watch and I was on um for a course record pace, that's when I just, you know, ah all all the fatigue in the body was gone. And I was just focused on hauling ass and getting myself to that finish line so I could live out this amazing vision that I had for it. And was living it out better than the vision? Did live up to the expectations?
00:19:39
Speaker
It's always hard to live up to that vision because what I am envisioning is so grand and spectacular and emotional. But yeah, it was it was so special. And what was so special about that finish line too was so many of the characters that I'd collected in this two months of bumming around Tassie, trail running and racing had gathered there to kind of celebrate what felt like the culmination of my trip down there.
00:20:05
Speaker
And yeah, And that was so special, you know, like I'd never raced interstate until earlier this year. And all of a sudden I've done four races and, you know, I inserted myself into this amazing community that is Tassie Trail Running, which is so grassroots and so pure and so many people who just do it for the love of being out in the the wild of Tassie. to celebrate with them was so special and hear about their races that they just had.
00:20:34
Speaker
I noticed that you had done a bit of course recon with Katinka and she obviously had an incredible day as well in the 25k. Being at the finish line, I'm like um i'm i'm only assuming you guys have created a good friendship from that, being able to share that moment with her. How was that?
00:20:51
Speaker
Well, unfortunately, Katinka wasn't at the finish line, despite her promising me that she would be there. um She... Yeah, even even if you're running as fast as you bloody can, apparently you can't catch her at a finish line. um But we had such a fun time in the lead up to this race. She actually flew across and stayed with me when I was doing a house sit.
00:21:13
Speaker
um She was so hungry for this race for someone to fly interstate just to do a recce is amazing. shows how dedicated um someone like Katinka is and it shows in the results. We had such a good day out on course. we We talked each other through the competition and who was going to be there, who we were worried about. And yeah, at the end of the day, despite having talked about all these things and it definitely helps to process them, you just show up and you do your thing and God, that girl has every reason to back herself. She is she's an incredible runner and yeah, she's only just getting started.
00:21:49
Speaker
No, I have her as my one to watch over the next couple of years. I think she has the capacity to go and do something pretty special. So if you listen to this, I hope that doesn't put any pressure on you. But it's that's there's a few names out there that I'm like, okay, you've you've got something.
00:22:05
Speaker
Totally. And you've kicked her for the win. So bravo. Yes. Yes. Thank you. I'll pat myself on the back for that one. um ah ah Bring it back to yourself. The nutrition side of things, in fact, even taking a ah further step back, one of the things that really strikes me about you and how you approach racing is it feels like you are looking at it as if you are a professional. Like this is everything to you. You're spending time on the course. You're dialing in your strategies, pacing, nutrition, mindset, all that kind of stuff.
00:22:37
Speaker
And I think that is, it's one of the reasons why I had you picked as my favorite. And I just, i unless you hurt yourself, I didn't see you messing this one up. Like the distances in your wheelhouse, that's not going to scare you. You know the course, that's not going scare you. It's just going to be if you messed the execution up somewhere or more likely injured yourself.
00:22:55
Speaker
Firstly, do you feel like that's a fair kind of analysis of how you view things? And then I'll go to the original question, which was how did you look at your fueling coming into this race? Yeah, i think I think you're on the money. Like I am just, I'm trying to be a student of this game and pick up as many little tidbits of information as I can to make this process of racing better and longer and more enjoyable and, you know, something that I can do long into the future.
00:23:23
Speaker
ah And I'm only just kind of wrapping or beginning to wrap my head around nutrition in the last year. But, you its It's evidently paying dividends for so many people. And if I want to do lengthy races and race as much as I would like to, which is actually, I mean, I love to race and I like to race a lot, but that requires recovery, then I have to get this nutrition thing dialed.
00:23:50
Speaker
And i had that... kind of aha moment at Buffalo Stampede last year in the 100k, I was still fueling all of my races off, basically Staminade, Coke, and just love of the game, and just trying to get by on pure vibes, ah which you can do for a period of time, but eventually your top end is going to blow out and you're going to stagnate.
00:24:18
Speaker
And, you know, I've listened to the David Roche podcast. I've listened to all the nutrition things that are coming out. And as long as I'm getting fuel in and I'm one of the the lucky ones where it goes in and it sits well, i can i feel like I can go all day, which has been huge. And the only thing that can stop me from doing that is energy availability.
00:24:44
Speaker
And what I mean by that is It just has to be, the the nutrition has to be on course and readily available and it has to be easily accessible. it's got to be on my online person, whether that's in a belt or in vest. As long as it's there, I will get it in and I will get enough in and I will go all day.
00:25:02
Speaker
But the only times where I've tripped up on that is just not having it there. yeah And that is when I've noticed energy depletion. So for yourself, um if you're happy to put numbers on it, where have you got yourself to? well What what do you find is is your your sweet spot?
00:25:20
Speaker
And does it change over the course, like if we're talking about a 60K or 50K compared to say 100 mile? Yeah, and i'm I'm still completely playing around with this. My body can handle getting 90 to 100 grams in, carbs an hour, and that is – That feels good. It gives me more than enough.
00:25:39
Speaker
And i think I managed to do that at the GPT miler and gone nuts and KMR. And that, those are probably the three most impressive results that I've had for myself in terms of racing and yeah and and how the race has played out.
00:26:00
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, that just tells the story there. Are there any particular brands that work for you? Look, I'm completely unsponsored by any brand, so I'm not going to shout out anyone until they come on board. Fair But i take an Australian-owned product that is very similar to Tailwind. Almost all of my carbs are coming in through liquids, so they're just carb hydration powder mixes, and I i concentrate the absolute bejesus out of them.
00:26:33
Speaker
Interesting. So I'm basically sucking on them like they're a gel, but instead of a gel, it's a 500ml flask with no package waste. That's really cool. On on the the weekend just gone at Buffalo Stampede, my wife, Shoran, got to um crew for Esther Chillag, which was an incredible experience, we're really interesting to see. And she would take a couple of Pringles each A-Station just to break up the sweetness to refresh her palate.
00:27:00
Speaker
Do you do anything like that? did Did you get palate fatigue from that sweetness? I never do. And I think I'm lucky because I am such a sweet tooth. I can't go a lunch or a dinner without topping up with a Tim Tam or three.
00:27:14
Speaker
i But I don't get palate fatigue or I haven't yet. But I do like to break up the liquid nutrition with... real foods and a lot of the time for me that's a Carmen's bar or something very straightforward, you know, just food that you that I would incorporate into my day-to-day routine anyway. Yeah.
00:27:33
Speaker
And the the recovery side post-race is, as you said, like – i will have gone through this but you had what hut to hut buffalo stampede wilson's prom berry long run wonderfuls mount macedon great ocean trail ultra and gpt all last year your shortest race being a marathon how have you felt the recovery change as you've started to implement these new nutrition strategies Oh, it's better. And yeah it's so much better, especially this year now, but I'm actually getting a dial. I mean, last year I wasn't even really on top of my nutrition.
00:28:07
Speaker
And I was doing all of those races in and around working full time as a carpenter. So that was another kind of physical tax and toll that I had to factor in.
00:28:19
Speaker
Yeah. So i think last year i I wasn't giving myself enough time to recover. Not that that necessarily showed in the results, but it showed in how I was kind of coping mentally and and how I was showing up to work. I just couldn't do those things properly.
00:28:37
Speaker
in tandem to the best of my ability. And I think instead of backing off racing, I just decided to to leave my job instead.
Life Choices and Values Beyond Racing
00:28:46
Speaker
Well, I'll jump in there. I think this is the good time to and to sort of do a little bit of a reflective process because I spoke to Michael Dunstan and to Sophie Broome before this, just kind of getting a little bit of context on you. And both of them obviously brought up the fact that you decided in December last year to go on a ah year of fun employment, as you put it.
00:29:09
Speaker
um Take us back prior to that, and as far back as you feel like is is relevant to sort of bring you to this to this decision, with the context that in the post-race video for KMI, you say, I know I am capable of this stuff.
00:29:23
Speaker
So using that as a little bit of a lead in, yeah, take us through that process. So I had been working as a carpenter for six years straight.
00:29:33
Speaker
And prior to that, I was managing to fit a lot of travel into my life and it had completely formed my identity. I thought, you know, I would ah would be away and traveling.
00:29:47
Speaker
And that would be a huge feature of my life long into my later years. When the pandemic hit and I decided to start my apprenticeship, a lot of those things got put on hold naturally, like everyone did.
00:30:01
Speaker
ah But I kind of persisted with making carpentry and making a career out of it. And I just i got to the point two years after I became a qualified chippy where I was really trying hard to pursue running and and carpentry at the same time and and they were kind of, they weren't kind of working in tandem and I was trying to ask for more leave time from my job to give me the ability to pursue running.
00:30:32
Speaker
And or at bare minimum, just pursue being outside a little bit more and not having the pressure of having to show up and do a full work week. And unfortunately, in the industry, it's a little bit inflexible in that respect.
00:30:44
Speaker
And I got into a discussion with my boss about, you know, what what we could do to work it out. And there probably wasn't as much leniency as I'd hoped. And that's when I decided to pull the trigger from that. I think I was just I was a bit burnt out by work.
00:30:59
Speaker
I was a little bit burnt out ah around the culture that exists around that um but line of work as well, being in the trade. ah think I'm always going to be up against it as someone who, and not to say that people in this industry don't have strong moral values, but they're not always in line with the way that I feel. And um that kind of,
00:31:22
Speaker
Clash had worn me down a little bit over time. So I was i was ready to take a step away in hope that I would reinsert myself back in a different capacity at some point. But yeah, I think I just, I needed 30 years old to insert myself into running and really see what what it was to me, what how far I could take it, what does it mean to take it far, ah you know, how how I can compete and really what this body can do. Because I wasn't able to fully pursue that and work full time as a carpenter. Interesting.
00:32:00
Speaker
Man, there's so much in that. Can you expand, you don't have to say anything about the the clashes, but can you just expand on what you are holding close as your morals? Because I have a feeling there's some really interesting insights here.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah, I don't and don't necessarily necessarily see myself as a ah spiritual person, but I believe wholeheartedly in Mother Nature and its ability to exist and heal and and give us what we need. um I'm also a great advocate for social justice and everyone being treated with respect and that we should just...
00:32:42
Speaker
exist on this planet and learn to coexist with nature in a low impact way and Let humans be humans and let people live their lives It's pretty simple when you boil it down to those things unfortunately, we've managed to overcomplicate it a lot in recent times, but I think if we're going to link that back to running especially trail running, being out in nature gives me the greatest opportunity to be the best version of myself that I can be.
00:33:13
Speaker
And that is because running at its core is simple, it's straightforward, and you breathe. You breathe fresh air and breathing and so many aspects of our life is um so important to ground us.
00:33:32
Speaker
And when you're looking at what events to do, like you said that you hadn't traveled interstate until essentially last year, last year, this year. Um, and it strikes me that there's a real, um, not, not just from a competitive element, but, but there's ah a second a secondary force driving which races you're choosing to do Tassie being a really prime example.
00:33:53
Speaker
Um, are there those considerations, the environmental impact of, of, of where you're going and also of what that race stands for? I think. I think less about um travel distance and my my impact through travel. i I don't think that's as big a concern for me. I do really want to put my energy into races and races that are run by people that have values that align with my own.
00:34:21
Speaker
I think, you know, i haven't, notoriously avoided UTMB races for any reason, but I just feel like my energy is better used supporting community-run events and races that are run by real people trying to get people of all levels involved.
00:34:42
Speaker
So that is really important to me. Also, a lot of these community-run events happen to are like run in places that are stunning. And yeah a lot of these community races are run on courses that are world-class.
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like that's something that... can easily be missed sometimes when you're looking at the smaller scale events is that these smaller scale events run in some of the most beautiful places. I think Cradle Mountain is obviously the most clear example where you can only have 80 people running on this course. And it is, from what I can tell, with the most spectacular thing, talking to Matt Crean about his experiences on it.
00:35:19
Speaker
And all I wanted to do was sign up to it next year. But then you have to be there on the button the exact time. and I do think it's something that's that's it's interesting because as the sport is growing so much, the reach is getting so big.
00:35:32
Speaker
There's more podcasts turning up. There's more events turning up. And different race directors are choosing to pursue different goals, which is great because it opens up loads of avenues for the sports. But it it's easy to forget about...
00:35:45
Speaker
what's in your backyard as opposed to traveling nationally or even internationally. So I think it's ah it's a really good point that you you bring up. You take the time off. So you you do Grampians, which if anyone wants to learn more about, you put a great recap on your Instagram. You also go into a real detail with it with Nigel Hill on his podcast. So I'm not going to go too much into that.
00:36:11
Speaker
But some of the things that I did note from that was that you spent a lot of time with Lucy ah during the race, Lucy Bartholomew and her A station transitions, you were like, you kept losing a bit of time and she was bit stronger than you on on the climbs, especially in that middle section.
00:36:27
Speaker
But also you noted about the fact that you got a little bit complacent and almost too present in the moment with Lucy as opposed to in the competition. What did you take away post-Grampians into this year or just kind of learnings for the future?
00:36:40
Speaker
well grampians that was that was i mean that was the biggest schooling i've had in this sport uh being able to run with loose and and share miles with people like sangay and max king you know it was it was the first race i've taken part in where internationals had had come and been apart and towed that start line with us mere mortals um I think my biggest takeaway from the Grampians run was that I'm a capable runner and that I've just got to back myself and and that the limit hasn't been found yet.
00:37:15
Speaker
yeah I think the fact that I was still able to hang at the top end of that race and be complacent and be... And I think that complacency just came down to, I was i was having so much fun. and was just I was running with Lucy, whose career I've spent a long time paying attention to, and I find her to be a remarkable runner.
00:37:41
Speaker
And I was just happy to share those miles and watch her go to work. And I think I took away what it looks like to be a professional athlete.
00:37:52
Speaker
And I still don't consider myself a professional in any respect because I still like to keep this sport light and easy and I guess without expectation. But um I'm learning to put those expectations on myself and learning to live with them and Yeah, I think it was just cool to go to work with someone who does this for a job and to see what that looks like.
00:38:17
Speaker
Is it hard to balance the the competitive drive that you clearly have with the just sheer joy of being in the environment that you're in? Yes, simply yes.
00:38:29
Speaker
It is hard. and But I think what I do really relish about this sport, and I i noticed this in cross country when I did one season of cross country in high school, was that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
00:38:42
Speaker
You can still be a competitor and you can still find joy in the sport. And i love standing on a start line with people who I respect the hell out of and giving them shit because I respect the hell out of them. Like I think the greatest respect you can give to someone is to treat them like a serious competitor and and, you know, play some games because this sport, we're out on course for a long time. Even in the 66, we're out there seven hours. At GPT, 22 until I got called off.
00:39:15
Speaker
um You've got to have some banty. You've got to keep this light. And I hope that doesn't come across as me being asshole. But but we're we're playing a competitive sport here and it's an individual sport. We all want to win.
00:39:28
Speaker
So as much as I like to keep this light and joyful, it means something to me. And i yeah I want to go out there and ah want to compete with you. i want to I want you to bring out the best in me. Yeah. it's It's easy to think that there's an arrogance or an ego that is driven in that.
00:39:44
Speaker
But the reality is, is that you don't train as hard as you do to turn up to the start line and frolic through the race because you can do that in training. you want to you want to be your best you want to see what you are capable of and that is purely dependent really on the people that are turning up with you and to have that competitive element to have that edge to have that banter to egg each other on a little bit that is what's going to bring out the fire in in everyone um like there was the comment you made to to max king at the start of gpt about if he's thinking 24 hours then he's going to dnf and i love that i think that's great it brings out character
00:40:21
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And I had a similar instance with Piotr Babis, who is, he's not a Tasmanian, but Tasmania would love to to take ownership of him.
00:40:32
Speaker
If you're talking trail running in Tasmania, you can't enter a conversation without someone bringing up this guy. He is He's a Polish dude who's been living down there, working as a hiking guide, but just taking down every FKT and course record that there is and making it his goal to go out there, call his shot and say, I'm going to do this and go and do it.
00:40:53
Speaker
And he was the course record holder for KMR Ultra. And the greatest respect I could give to him was to go and treat his course record seriously and work my absolute ass off to take it down because that's what I looked at as the perfect race. And there were a few moments KMR where I was going, what would he ought to be doing here? Well, he would be absolutely going to work.
00:41:19
Speaker
There are no lapses in that race because, you know, This guy's a serious operator. And so I just had to, every time I kind of took a breath, brought my attention back to my body, I was like, can is there room to give more? Yep, dig the poles in, put in a little running effort here. um Can i go faster than a 4.10 pace down this? Yeah, like maybe let's tick it down. Let's see how that feels.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah. No, I like it. I really, I really do. And I think it's important for when somebody feels confident and comfortable to share that publicly, because obviously what happens in a race when we're chatting to the guy next to us often doesn't leave that moment.
00:42:00
Speaker
It's a bit like what happens since in Vegas stays in Vegas to a degree, it it's I know it's fun. It it creates creates a bit of character spontaneity. like it's yeah It's the enjoyment.
00:42:12
Speaker
it's Because you're right, you're out there for a long time. If it's just silence and everyone getting nervous, you're probably more likely to have a bad race than a good race. Yeah, exactly. Someone's got to break the ice. I've had this moment so many times where everyone's had their tail between their legs and as soon as you start chatting, everyone's shoulders drop.
00:42:30
Speaker
It's like a bit of a sigh of relief to just talk about what's ahead, what we're getting ourselves into and just just have a moment where we're not being you know these gung-ho competitors at each other's throats.
00:42:44
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so we've got to the point, you've done GPT, you've said that it was the essentially the race of your life for 142k, left your job, Christmas, you went traveling in New Zealand, I've got the the stats here, you did 18 days, 315k and 17,500 meters worth of, acent like mostly hiking with your partner?
00:43:09
Speaker
Yeah, predominantly hiking, but there was there was a fair bit of running out there when I could get into it. Okay. You're self-coached. I am really curious about your approach to training and how it's evolved over the last sort of five, six years that you've been in running and to the point now, because have you ever had a coach in that period?
00:43:29
Speaker
No, never had a running coach. So where are your influences coming from? You've already mentioned David Roach. I'm assuming there's a degree there, but yeah, what, how are you approaching these, these races? Yeah. I mean, David Roach has taught me that people are capable of getting in 160 grams an hour. That's about all this. And that someone like that can run really fast.
00:43:48
Speaker
ah I think if you're choosing to be uncoached, you have to be you have to be humble and you have to be willing to be open and learn. I've been very bad at that in the past and thought that just because I won a race, it gave me a reason to ignore what everyone else was doing and that what I was doing was right and what they were doing was wrong.
00:44:10
Speaker
ah But I think I've just got to make sure that I'm always listening out and listening to podcasts. I'm listening to what people are saying about the sport. And this is a sport that's changing and changing so rapidly.
00:44:22
Speaker
And just know, yeah, just have an ear to the ground to know what people are up to. And I went to the APRC training camp earlier this year and got to meet Blake and Madge and the whole crew that are coaching there.
00:44:41
Speaker
And I guess i was I was feeling them out to see if coaching, not necessarily with them, but if having a coach would be something that I was interested in. I think just the life that I'm living right now isn't very conducive to it. I really like to so wake up, check in with my body and go outside and just feel what it's capable of. And sometimes...
00:45:00
Speaker
that can't be dictated by what's on their spreadsheet. And I know that coaches can be flexible with that, but you'd be getting a call from me pretty much every day saying, oh, sorry, mate, like I just, I saw this peak off the side of the highway and I just really wanted to climb it. So yeah I'm not doing the the easy session you had in the cards for me today.
00:45:19
Speaker
And I think that is what's going to keep me here long term is a joy and a spontaneity and a passion for waking up and keeping it interesting and doing what I want to do and doing what I feel my body is capable of on that day.
00:45:37
Speaker
It's interesting speaking to Tyler Windham yesterday, he's self-coached and he said essentially a very similar thing. um His is very much lifestyle based being a carpenter himself. um But yeah, if that structure doesn't suit your life and what you want to get out of the sport, then it's unlikely to be the right thing for you if you can have that reflective, humble process.
00:45:59
Speaker
You did say though in the podcast with Nigel about you do try to stay on top of your speed, you need to stay sharp whilst you're doing all this this volume. Do you have sort of processes or a framework that you do apply to seemingly just kind of going on the next cool adventure?
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I like to come across as this blase human who just gets by on having fun and having a laugh and keeping things relaxed. But I think like anyone at this top end of the ah the the racing spectrum, I do have plug the things that people do. And I do have to make sure that my pointy end is sharp and that my speed is there, climbing is there.
00:46:43
Speaker
i think I know from racing as much as I do kind of what I need to work on. so After my race at Buffalo last year and my climbing just feeling a lot more sluggish than a lot of the the guys who came ahead of me, i i went to work on getting some climbing in and just ticking up those vert meters.
00:47:03
Speaker
So I guess that's what a lot of the beginning of this year has been is putting myself in places like... in New Zealand, in Tassie, where mountains are readily available and making that access easy.
00:47:15
Speaker
I think that's just my biggest thing being in Melbourne is, you know, I would have to do 50 hill reps on my steepest local hill to get a thousand meters. yeah And I don't want to do that because yeah that's dull.
00:47:30
Speaker
Do you see yourselves moving away from Melbourne? It's good question. I definitely don't feel like Melbourne is my forever place. it's It's easy. It's such a ah beautiful city and an easy one to come back to because I know that there's work here and my people are here and my family are here.
00:47:47
Speaker
But I am really loving the life of a nomad and... keeping my possessions condensed so that I can just up and leave when I want. My partner's from Darwin and I obviously have an affinity for Tasmania. We've spoken at great lengths about doing summer in Tas, winter in Darwin.
00:48:08
Speaker
It feels like a bit of a pipe dream right now, but it sounds like a pretty good idea to me if we can make that happen. 100%. If there's a ah strong enough why, there's often a way to do It's just have to work it out.
00:48:22
Speaker
um If I was to put myself in your boots, I'm going essentially all in on running, though I know that you have said that your decision to take the time off is not purely because of of running.
00:48:34
Speaker
But I do this. I give myself this capacity. A, if I self-coached, I would do 100% over train. But B, I'm sure there are both pros and cons there. to this time and to this this this decision and and the potential for you to put this pressure on yourself. Okay, like I've given myself this opportunity, make the most of it.
00:48:52
Speaker
Don't mess this up. Are you having those those thoughts or source so variations of that? Not really, because in my head, the only way I could mess this up was if it was a year that wasn't enjoyable.
00:49:05
Speaker
Obviously, I'm going backwards financially because I'm spending a lot of money without any coming in. But I think the reason why I didn't, you know, I've taken this year off, obviously, to to see how far trail running can go.
00:49:18
Speaker
But the pressure's off in terms of, you know, if it doesn't get to where I want it to be, then that's not a failure on my part. It's just the fact that it didn't happen in the timeframe that I gave myself, and and there's still room to move with that.
00:49:32
Speaker
So, yeah, I think... but um the The best I operate is when the pressure's off and the pressure is entirely off. I'm not putting any more on myself. And I might do in the lead up to races.
00:49:45
Speaker
Obviously, i wanted to create a pretty decent fan care results this year, especially when ah when World Champs was in...
00:49:56
Speaker
was in my sights. You know, that was something that wasn't on my radar really a year ago. but as soon as I started making these results and those results came naturally, it felt like a natural progression to throw my hat in that ring because I that I liked that just happened to be kind of in the realm of the distance I wanted to submit for.
00:50:16
Speaker
And so It just, I feel like I do a lot of manifestation and more often than not, these things just seem to happen.
Trail Running Philosophy and Community Involvement
00:50:25
Speaker
I'll just call my shot a year out and it might seem outlandish at the time, but these things just seem to kind come together the way that they do As much as you're happy to share, what is the the the goal? Like, what are you trying to achieve with this?
00:50:40
Speaker
ah I think it's it's so difficult because um like it seems like such an obvious answer to me, which is just I want to enjoy this to the best of my ability and knowing that it might be a fleeting moment that trail running makes a cameo in my life. I just want to enjoy it to the fullest because...
00:51:02
Speaker
Historically, I've had a lot of passions that I've pursued wholeheartedly. like you know I pursued being an artist in my early 20s and I went hard on that. It just came to a point where I ah didn't want to do it anymore. And then I pursued the carpentry thing and I'm taking a step back from that. So history will dictate that trail running ah probably won't be forever.
00:51:24
Speaker
But what will be forever is, you know, the fact that I pursued something with joy and tried to kind of inspire people along the way to just do the simple thing of getting outside and making it fun.
00:51:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's pretty good answer. So you've applied for, i'm assuming, the long trail team? Yes. Yeah. And I'm glad to say this publicly because I feel like a lot of people have kind of kept their submissions under wraps, but I feel like We need to discuss these things.
00:51:53
Speaker
um It's nice to put it out in the open. Yeah, threw my hat in the ring and it's all up to the the trail running gods now. Oh, 100%. it's a tricky It's a tricky one because you get people that are superstitious. Like if they verbalize it, then it can't come true.
00:52:09
Speaker
And I get that. I get that totally. But also the sport is in a real transition period where arguably the last champs in Austria or Thailand, the level of competition to get onto the team, at this way, it's never been higher than it is now. Yeah.
00:52:26
Speaker
Which is really exciting, but but there's also these limitations that are involved in that, like it's got to be self-funded. You can't do ah the the one of the UTMB events, essentially, if you want to race in the the long along or the the short trail team.
00:52:41
Speaker
So there are a lot of considerations that do get in the way that I know are preventing people from from applying to this. However, being able to represent your country to put the green and gold on. It's pretty special.
00:52:52
Speaker
It's, it's, it's so cool. Yeah. ah And yeah, go, go on about that. And I mean, i as a kind of amateur in this sport still, uh, as someone who has pursued other sports and, you know, topped out at a very low level, the thought that,
00:53:12
Speaker
something like this could even be an option is just, it beggars belief. Probably a pretty good time to get in on now because as a sport professionalizes it, someone who's doing it without any sponsorship or backing probably won't be able to do this kind of thing in a few years. Probably at at the rate this sport's moving, it probably is just a few years.
00:53:33
Speaker
So think the timing is he's right. yeah But yeah, I mean, an honor. Yeah. Yeah. And does the the course itself being kind of frank, like it's a pretty aggressive course, does that excite you?
00:53:49
Speaker
Totally. It excites me. It scares me. It scares me because it excites me and and vice versa. um All of those things I'm acutely aware of. it's It's a tough course. It's going to be a tough day out. But I think... um Every time that I've thrown myself in the deep end and done something that's concerned me, I'm always blown away when I come out the other side having done it and achieved it. and Your boundaries and idea of what you're capable of just continue to grow.
00:54:18
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. You look at your resume that um that you've submitted when we talk about in the and the qualification period, essentially everything from Wilson's prom last year through to ah course record at KMR this year.
00:54:31
Speaker
i mean, you couldn't really have done much more to put yourself in a standing. You've got what one second place, one fourth place, and then everything else is a first. Yeah, it's been a been a really great year, totally. and And the beauty of that is that I also didn't have to chase races that I wasn't interested in to submit because i wasn't that wasn't at the fore of mind a year ago when I was entering these races. So it's been able to happen naturally.
00:55:01
Speaker
What was that transition like in your head when you you suddenly realised that, oh, I'm actually good at this. Like I could be something and therefore I'm actually in with the running of representing my country at the World Championships.
00:55:16
Speaker
What was that like? that's still kind of insane to me. yeah ah still kind of pinch myself. And I know that the work is there, but I don't live the life of your typical athlete. still It still feels quite casual and relaxed to me.
00:55:36
Speaker
There isn't much pressure. And when I look at the kind of people, especially more in the athletics realm who are competing at this, it's ah an entire lifestyle overhaul.
00:55:48
Speaker
And I feel like I haven't had to completely overhaul my life in able to make this viable. You've mentioned a couple of times obviously that you are on but unsponsored and...
00:56:00
Speaker
I think if you look at the people in the sport that aren't sponsored in Australia from a character reference point of view and a performance point of view, your name would definitely be pretty high up on my list if I was an athlete manager.
00:56:12
Speaker
But let's go for a hypothetical here and somebody contacts you after this podcast and they go, hey, Ben, we love what you do. We love what who you are. We... probably not so much for Australia, but let's just go with it.
00:56:25
Speaker
We have enough money to make it worthwhile that you can actually go full time at this, and at least like to get by. Would you take it? Do did you think that would detract away from what why you do this?
00:56:36
Speaker
Yeah, I guess obviously the the finer details need to be considered. I'm always caught between this idea of wanting to legitimize the thing that I do and ae I guess fortunately and unfortunately, branding and sponsorship and ambassadorships can do that for people. Like I see people wearing full race kits and I instantly think that is a serious operator.
00:57:01
Speaker
I wonder how that stacks up. against a guy like me who's in like drips and drabs and all and a thousand different brands and there's no cohesion where the people don't see me as a threat. I do really like that about what I'm doing. I can wear whatever I want. I can enter whatever race that I want.
00:57:18
Speaker
I don't want to be told what to do and and where to go and where to race. But yeah, obviously financial assistance would be greatly valued.
00:57:35
Speaker
If people want to jump on the the Ben Burgess train and and they like what I do and they're happy to just support all the things that I want to do without asking too much, sure. But I know that all of these things come with a cost and that's that's a an interesting thing to navigate.
00:57:53
Speaker
And it's a conversation that over here, it's not relevant for all bar, probably one or two runners. But in the rest of the world, there are a lot of people that are now living off an income from trail running, which is incredible to see. And it's definitely coming across this way, but you do also see the pressure that that puts on and the drop in performances and the the drop of enjoyment. So i'm I'm always curious just kind of how we think we might deal with that.
00:58:21
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I think... and maybe this is my perception of of things, but a very common thread between those who are sponsored and those who are injured.
00:58:32
Speaker
ah As someone who has had a relatively injury-free run of things so far, and I touch wood, and I know that I jinx myself every time I say that out loud, but um when you're asked to do more than what you want to do oftentimes that can lead you down a path which can be difficult.
00:58:56
Speaker
Yeah. um And if I want to have a long and i don't I don't only want a long career in this sport, but I want a long life in the outdoors, It's got to be on my terms and it's got to be, for the most part, injury free.
00:59:12
Speaker
yeah Those things stack up. ah Definitely. as As somebody that's very injured at the moment, the the consistency element of running and training, we all know it's important, but Sometimes in that moment, it can be really hard to remember and to make the right decision when you need to make it.
00:59:29
Speaker
And it's good to hear that that's essentially the main main consideration for you is it's like, and I'm happy to be 5% further away from that red line if it means that like I'm not taking six months off ah next year or whatever it is.
00:59:43
Speaker
um We spoke earlier about you've been in Tassie for eight weeks. Well, you were in Tassie for two months or so, and you've had quite a few races through that. The first one that you did down there was Cradle Mountain. And it was interesting reading your reflections on that.
01:00:01
Speaker
that you said that you could get a form of becoming absorbed in the race instead of being present in the joy of the landscape. And when you look at your last four results, obviously the competition level at Cradle was sort of abnormally strong.
01:00:18
Speaker
yeah and But it does it did it did really strike me that you were veryre very time-based. you You thought a good day would be to run 8.15 and you ran 8.15. But you yeah you say you're absorbed in it.
01:00:29
Speaker
Do you feel like you kind of went into that race with the wrong objectives or or an unhelpful mindset? Yes. I think I was probably overtraining before that.
01:00:40
Speaker
And I think my run at GPT, which was my previous race before that, had given me a swagger that I probably hadn't entirely earned yet.
01:00:52
Speaker
I just thought that I... was all of a sudden a high volume guy who could bounce back really fast, who could recover quickly, that I could just show up to this race. I knew I was going to have it in for me with Matt Green.
01:01:05
Speaker
We trained together. he He's obviously an incredible athlete and he's raced that race many times. So I just went, okay, cool. He's the only name I know on the start list. I'll just hang off him and see what I can do.
01:01:16
Speaker
And... The other thing that I really mucked up on that race, because it is an entirely self-sufficient race, there's one aid station, I think at about the 60k mark, but it's very sparse.
01:01:26
Speaker
You have to carry everything but you'll need, mandatory gear and nutrition for the entire race. And um I just didn't have enough. And ah when I tried to tap into the last little remaining parts of my energy stores, they weren't there.
01:01:44
Speaker
And I was getting passed by people that I didn't know. And when you just come off a race where you you've beaten big names, it's a totally humbling experience to get passed by people whose names you've never heard.
01:01:59
Speaker
and It was the wake up call that I needed. I just, you can't be blase about these things. That was a 78 kilometer ultra. And I just went, Oh, this is almost half the distance of GPT. I'll just rock up and it'll be ah a walk in the park.
01:02:14
Speaker
Uh, Absolutely not. It was still a massive day on ah on a tough course that the profile of the race doesn't match how difficult it is in terms of terrain.
01:02:25
Speaker
And I got humbled and I finished that race and it was a race that was a bucket list item of mine feeling like I hadn't done it justice yeah and I hadn't enjoyed it. And that that was disappointing. I mean, i probably underestimated how quickly I could go on that course to think that I had a bad day and still hit my A goal time.
01:02:50
Speaker
But when I looked historically through the the previous winners, And the previous times, an 8.15 would have had me winning last year's race by half an hour.
01:03:01
Speaker
So I just, I misread the situation. And I didn't run my own race and I got really frazzled by people passing me and let that kind of ruin my experience of why I was truly out there.
01:03:15
Speaker
Do you feel like now you've got a different level of confidence in what you are capable of? I do, but I'm definitely not immune to having a bad day and I'm learning those lessons.
01:03:26
Speaker
I think that's what I'm learning. had a similar experience at Buffalo the year before where I had come off a string of, uh, first places lined up thinking it was going to be cakewalk and didn't make the podium and you know a fourth place in a strong field is never a bad day I mean a lot of people would take that but The expectations that I have on myself to show up and do well now are great and I want to meet them and when I don't it stings and that's kind of what fuels the fire. I think it's important to have these moments, these downraces. mean you can never expect to show up to every race and get a win.
01:04:06
Speaker
I definitely don't take that for granted. but um I think it's important to have them so you can reassess, step back, really truly acknowledge where you went wrong and come back stronger.
01:04:18
Speaker
Yeah. do Do you have any concrete strategies that you use to be able to reframe and to to put yourself into the mindset that works best for you? I am part of a ah wonderful WhatsApp group full of whole bunch of hodgepodge runners.
01:04:34
Speaker
um We will do a video race recap for every race that we do. And I've got all of those banked on my phone. And I think it's so important for those to exist so I can tap back into those and go, what was I talking about after this race? Where did things go right? Where did things go wrong? How can I change those for next time? And, you know, if there's recurring things that come up that were good, implement those. If there were recurring things that come up that were bad,
01:05:03
Speaker
we We can them all together. So I think that's really good. I do a lot of kind of journaling and stream of consciousness writing as well, which allows me to kind of physicalize the race itself.
01:05:13
Speaker
But I think that's been really beneficial me. That sounds really cool. It sounds like a good Greek chat to be a part of. I like that. It's amazing. and And there's a lot of chitchat when there's dot watching to be done during races. And it's the most incredible thing to tap into post-race to see people literally screaming into their phone when gaps are closing and moves are being made.
01:05:34
Speaker
It's the best. so amazing how interesting watching a dot on a screen for 24 hours can be. Oh, it is the most all-consuming thing that you can do as a trail runner. Yeah, I don't think many people would understand it.
01:05:47
Speaker
No, I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about the 10,000 meters on the track being boring to watch. And they also reflected as a trail running podcast on what it must be like for the average person to hear about a hundred mile race. It's, um, but there's something, there's something captivating about it. Yeah.
01:06:04
Speaker
Yeah. yeah So ah less than perfect day at Cradle Mountain and then you come into Gone Nuts and it seems like that reframing has happened. You've you've identified the faults and you've put the things in place. Is that is that accurate?
01:06:21
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. If Cradle was a ah less than perfect day, then Gone Nuts was a near perfect day. I ah went in there just saying, i just want to have a good day, period, not necessarily a good race.
01:06:34
Speaker
And I stuck to my guns and without knowing it, cross that finish line, I think like 25 seconds off a course record. Oh no. And in first place. So, I mean, yeah, things just, things felt good again. Yeah. And that's what I needed.
01:06:50
Speaker
If that was the B race to the KMRA race, then it was a bloody good B race to have because I just identified what works and what didn't work. Yeah. All in the space of, you know, a month.
01:07:02
Speaker
And before we we came on, I gave you little a heads up of like two specific questions I wanted to ask. I just wanted to give you the time to reflect on them. And one of them was, and we we have touched this a bit already, but the the strategies that you have learned over what is a relatively short time in the sport, but ah ah time where you've come from finishing essentially in the mid-pack to being one of the top ultra-distance male runners in the sport right now in Australia.
01:07:28
Speaker
And the... the training, the gear, the nutrition, the recovery and the mindset element of it. Did you have a chance to think about what you, what you feel is like really important that could give value to people listening?
01:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, it's important to acknowledge the the beginnings of, of things and acknowledging those, those early mid pack races. I think, Coming into this sport late was a real godsend for me and probably has benefited me greatly. I gave my my body the opportunity to develop and grow outside of running, but also to have a plethora of experiences in life that don't revolve around running, which means that now I feel like I can give a lot to this sport without having feeling like I've missed out on things.
01:08:17
Speaker
I think that's really beneficial. But yeah, go there's a lot to be said for slow playing and being okay in the early stages of your career. If you do want to if you do want to take the sport seriously and compete at the top end, to having those mid-pack results, to just going out there, feeling it out. And I think my greatest asset in what I've been doing over the last few years is just being involved in any respect, whether it be racing, whether it be...
01:08:47
Speaker
running at my local run club and just being involved with humans at every level of this sport and being open to learning from them and learning different strategies. Cause yeah, every day is a school day.
01:09:01
Speaker
as That's advice I really could have used with myself four years ago or so. So I hope i hope someone listening can ah can take something ah away from that. You said about being connected just then and it made me remember that RollerCoaster, I saw a video of you.
01:09:18
Speaker
Were you running the A station at Doongala or you were just their pretty face for the camera? camera I was one of about six people who were operating aid station, but I kind of made it my purpose that day to ensure that the front runners of the races were getting what they needed and getting it quickly and not having to deal with the argy-bargy of the aid station itself.
01:09:42
Speaker
Yeah, okay. And then the other one that that came across was for the next race you did in Tassie, the Takayana Ultra, I think it's, yeah. um And you were course marking two days before the race, which yeah is great. like i I love that. And we saw at at Buffalo, Tom Dade was doing the check-ins the night before his 100K is going to start. And I think it's something that,
01:10:03
Speaker
I don't put anything bad on people that, that don't volunteer before their race, because you put so much time and energy into that, that if you need to focus on that it's great. But I do think it's really good to import to highlight the fact that volunteering, giving back to local community, because a lot of these races just physically can't happen without volunteers.
01:10:21
Speaker
Is, is that something that that you're quite consciously trying to, to do, to engage in that way? Totally. Yep. I think it's, it's paramount to, to being a part of this sport. Um,
01:10:33
Speaker
Especially if you're going to be involved in it long term and in ah in a high capacity, like you've got to give back. And you know I've been given the gift of discounted race entries, free race entries.
01:10:45
Speaker
I don't take that for granted. like That's all got to go back in some way, shape or form. And sometimes the best way that I can do that is just by donating my time. Yeah. And also i think I was actually having this conversation yesterday that it's easy to sometimes sound elitist when potentially we're complaining about not getting entries. And I'm sorry I say we, not me, but general, complaining about not getting entries to certain races because it's just not feasible. Like you want to do the race wants it to be competitive, but it's a lot of money to enter all these races and stuff. But we do...
01:11:19
Speaker
you see it in the Instagram post that there's a lot of, there's a lot of connection and a lot of value that can be given back there. But I think that's another way that is really good that can be, can be given back whether it's post your race. In fact, even at Buffalo, actually, um I was trying to get people from the 10K to come and have a chat to us on Saturday post race and everybody was out volunteering.
01:11:37
Speaker
They were all at aid stations or like out on course. And I just thought that was beautiful. Like there was, the event needed it and all the elites, the top of the sport, they jumped at it. so Yeah, and it's fun. I need to highlight the fact that it is so fun to be out there on course on the other side of this the other side of things, you know cheering people on like and seeing people of all abilities achieve their goal for the day. That's the kind of stuff that inspires you to go out and race your own race. When I volunteered at Roller Coaster, I think it was the following weekend I ran Great Ocean Trail Ultra.
01:12:13
Speaker
You best believe that I was on that sideline, screaming my guts out, getting so hyped for my race the following week. I was chomping at the bit to be a part of that. yeah And yeah, I went out at Great Ocean Trail and had an epic race because I was watching people that I trained with like Sophie Broome and James Blanett and all these guys like getting it done. It was awesome.
01:12:37
Speaker
Yeah, there's there's no better way to have a respect and a fire than to watch everybody else throughout the whole pack do it. I love it. From the first person through to the last person, it's...
01:12:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's powerful.
01:12:53
Speaker
i Just go back to the Takana Ultra. You mentioned that Bob Brown is one of, if not your your hero. And i obviously I've heard of the project to essentially save the Takana National Park, but i hadn't really ever heard of...
01:13:15
Speaker
Bob Brown or the Bob Brown foundation. And this is the other thing I kind of teed you up with. i'd I'd like you to kind of just explain what's going on down there, who Bob Brown is, why he's your hero and, and what people can do to kind of have an impact there.
01:13:29
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, Importantly, we need to note that Takaina is not yet a national park. It's something that we're... This is what we're trying to achieve. Right. Apologies. By running this race, no.
01:13:42
Speaker
ah But fingers crossed we can call it Takaina National Park future years. So the Bob Brown Foundation... Obviously named after Bob Brown.
01:13:52
Speaker
Bob Brown is many things as a human being. People probably know him most as the leader of the Greens party at one point. In fact, he was the co-founder of the first Greens party in the world.
01:14:06
Speaker
He's at the fore and above all and environmental activist who's lived down in Tassie for a long time and has defended wild places for his whole life.
01:14:19
Speaker
I came to know him probably through an old a documentary on the Takaina that came out probably 10 years ago, which was very linked to trail running and the Bob Brown Foundation had been involved in asc sending this incredible athlete out to to trail run into logging coops and photograph them and expose them and and send that information back to the Wilderness Society and the foundation itself to then action frontline protesters to be out there defending forest.
01:14:55
Speaker
Yeah. But I guess historically, Bob Brown has basically advocated for our wild places and been on the front lines himself and action people to be on the front lines to defend them.
01:15:07
Speaker
And so much of Tasmania and the national parks that exist there now owe great gratitude to the work that's been done historically to send people out there to protect them and and lobby for them to be available for generations to the public. So, I mean, all that being said, it feels you can kind of understand why a person like that would be my hero as a person who loves to experience wild places.
01:15:37
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Where is that process now with trying to become a national park? It's definitely still not there. ah And who knows what it's going to take.
01:15:48
Speaker
I think... with politicians still being in cahoots with logging companies. And yeah, and there's a ah long history of this in Tasmania, of people who want to defend the forest and people who think job creation happens at the hands of logging.
01:16:09
Speaker
it's It's not progressing anywhere in terms of it becoming a national park, but the awareness that's being created through multiple avenues and especially through Takana Trail Ultra itself, I think, yeah, we just we just need the public sphere to be on board. Yeah.
01:16:32
Speaker
It feels crazy when you when you visit this place and see the ancient trees that have existed for thousands of years that are 80 metres tall and 20 metres in girth at the base. you know It simply is mind-boggling to think that we want to cut these things down. yeah Yeah.
01:16:51
Speaker
And I think as trail running podcast, we would be negligent to not bring awareness to this. So i went onto the Takana website and... I didn't realize, but they've created, or they are creating a new film on this. And I watched the two-minute trailer got me very worked up. It's probably the best way to put it.
01:17:12
Speaker
um Just looking at the logging, the mining, the heavy metals waste dump, and even just like the damage from off-road vehicles. There's 60 threatened or and endangered animal and plant species that live there, 130 species that rely on that region.
01:17:26
Speaker
And there could be more because it hasn't been fully experienced yet. If anybody is listening to this and is interested, there also is there are screenings kind of happening from to tomorrow, actually.
01:17:41
Speaker
There's screens in Victoria, even in the UK, down in Tasmania. So if you are interested, please do jump on the website. I'll put the link in the show notes for that. um And there is a petition that you can sign if you do wish to, too. So I think that we're in a world where we need to protect our green spaces, not take them away.
01:17:58
Speaker
Absolutely. and And thank you for sharing that. And I think as a trail community, we need to acknowledge a little bit more of it. We owe some level of gratitude to but people who historically have defended the places that we run in.
01:18:14
Speaker
They don't just exist because they exist. ah They have been safe kept for a reason. And that yeah isn't always off the back of people power.
01:18:26
Speaker
But yeah don't take it for granted because... We live in a country where access to nature is available for a lot of us. And that doesn't just happen.
01:18:38
Speaker
Yeah. And it's something that I spoke to Lincoln, the race director for KMR before the race this year. And one of their main initiatives is around trail stewardship. And it really, it got me thinking about the fact that, and I think especially prevalent at the moment for what's happening in the States with their parks service about all the funding being being removed about, it is so easy to get complacent with these trails should just be there.
01:19:05
Speaker
And that they're magically in this good condition that means that we can safely pass them. But there is so much that goes into it. And if we want to keep using these, especially with the way that the climate is going and the unpredictability of nature, we're just seeing with the last two years of the Grampians, with COSI, we need to start respecting and being a bit more proactive about it, I think at least.
01:19:24
Speaker
um And I get the feeling you would share that same view. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's unfortunately the worst time in human history to be a trail runner. We're absolutely at the mercy of the elements and we're seeing that in racing.
01:19:39
Speaker
And racing and running is a privilege and you know we shouldn't just expect the climate to bend to our wants and needs. yeah So gear up ah or join the fight, really. yeah Yeah, unfortunately, Mother Nature doesn't care how good your training block has been.
01:19:57
Speaker
Oh, absolutely not. No. And you better learn to run in super hot weather and super cold weather and all the stuff in between because, yeah, we're in for a bumpy ride. 100%. It keeps us on our toes, I guess, is a ah plus in a really horrendous way.
01:20:15
Speaker
let's let's go let's go with a plus um okay there was one person on your instagram and i've wanted to wait until we were kind of had a bit more rapport hopefully between between us to to bring this one up because i i don't want you to feel like you you need to answer this one but i would like to read this post out uh it was from early december and there's just there's a lot going on here that that id yeah i'd like to talk about so The post goes, the question I get asked the most, what do you think about during an ultra?
01:20:46
Speaker
Where do you go into your head? For me, running is a way to get out of my head and back to what's real and honest. The world is sick and so often I find myself numbing my overwhelmed brain with the artificial screen time. Crud that's easy to consume because the hard-hitting stuff is too much for a mindful mind to endure.
01:21:04
Speaker
It can be a cop-out, but it's a coping mechanism. Running trails gives me time back, time away from the BS and time in places that are real and enduring despite capitalist worst wishes.
01:21:15
Speaker
Nature has always been here and it will be here long after humanity inevitably destroys itself. It is bigger and greater than all of us. And in a world full of egos, including my own, I truly appreciate feeling small.
01:21:26
Speaker
And that's just the first half of it. yeah That, writing that and hearing, it must be weird hearing someone read it back to you.
Running as Therapy and Personal Reflection
01:21:34
Speaker
What, there's some very powerful emotions in there.
01:21:39
Speaker
What brought you to kind of write that and and you clearly want to use your voice proactively for the things that ah you hold dear to you. And ah just want to kind of give a bit of a space for you to expand on some of those those thoughts that you think is relevant for the podcast.
01:21:55
Speaker
Hmm. I think everyone has a why when it comes to running. And a lot of people wonder what it is that you're running away from. i think that's a pretty common question that a lot of us get answered or asked, sorry.
01:22:10
Speaker
ah I'm not running away from anything. I might have in the past and maybe running was an outlet in the past to help me kind of get out of my head.
01:22:21
Speaker
But I think you if anything, we're running towards something and a lot of the time that's a better version of o ourselves. um I don't know whether i need to dive or delve too deep into this because it's quite personal, but i had a pretty, or have had multiple experiences throughout my life of domestic violence at the hands of my father.
01:22:45
Speaker
And it's something that both in my mom and I have endured of throughout our lives and our life together. it's um It's something that is difficult and like everyone, we have hiccups in life, but I think for me trail running And just finding a reason to be outside such, it was the perfect environment for me to process and get over my things. So when I first found running, I would run as far as I could until my mind was had processed all of the the thoughts that were coming up and became blank.
01:23:19
Speaker
And then I'd be able to run home from that point and have the back half of my run just with clarity. So yeah, I mean, running provides me a lot of things. It provides everyone a lot of things. And There are so many things that can be said about running. I guess I just wanted to weigh in with my two cents on what it means to me. No, I think it's beautiful, Ben. I think it's something that it's scary to put yourself out like that.
01:23:41
Speaker
And especially when you've got something big in your past that has really shaped who you were and has... led you to find the person that you are now, because that's the reality of these these traumas, these challenges, is you are who you are because of them, because of the the things you've had to become to to get past them or through them.
01:24:01
Speaker
But to put that out there, yeah, I just i i guess I wanted to to say i I really respect that and thank you for reading it. I struggled to read it out. loud and to be honest um but i but i do think we i want to encourage people to feel like comfortable with being open and honest and be true to themselves whether that's whether that is saying nothing or whether that's saying everything um i i think that we live in a world where it's pretty easy to forget that there are what's going on and ah yeah our stories Absolutely. And that everyone has a story, you know, that's, that's mine.
01:24:35
Speaker
And it's a story of sadness and happiness and everything in between, but we're all living very complex lives. And i think it's important to appreciate that, you know, that's, that's my story that everyone has their own and to be empathetic.
01:24:51
Speaker
Yeah. 100%.
Future Racing Plans and Ambitions
01:24:53
Speaker
one hundred percent All right, bringing it kind of back to the running element of of this conversation and talking more to the future now.
01:25:03
Speaker
ah You said in post earlier on that in the year that Westmax is your next race coming up in May. And we've just spoken about hopefully getting onto the World Long Trail team. i Obviously your future for the year will have kind of two different pathways based on if you get on that team or not get on that team. but What's exciting you about this year?
01:25:25
Speaker
What are you looking to achieve outside of just simply having the the fun and like that pursuit of joy that you've sort of, but yeah that path that you've been on? what's What's the goals? Yeah, I guess the the world champs situation kind of dictates a little bit of what my year will look like. And i've succumbed to that and I've accepted that. ae So Westmax is my next confirmed race.
01:25:49
Speaker
ah You probably understand by now that I have a ah desire to race as much as I can. Now, conveniently on my drive up to West Max about two weeks out is a little known race called the Icarra Ultra, which is happening in the Flinders Ranges in South Australia.
01:26:06
Speaker
This is completely unconfirmed, but I was going to stop into the Flinders ranges regardless of whether this race was happening. It conveniently happens to be happening.
01:26:17
Speaker
Unfortunately, their shortest distance is a 50k, which might not be the the most conducive thing to running a hundred and twenty eight k two weeks later, but ah crazier things i have done.
01:26:30
Speaker
And so we'll see. i'm just I'm just teasing that one for now. It's and completely unconfirmed. But um after West Max, and what's really cool about West Max is I did the Larapinta trail in Alice probably three three years ago, four years ago now.
01:26:46
Speaker
And so what we're doing there is hiking half of it as a five-day hike, me and my partner, finishing at the trailhead for the hundred and twenty eight k race.
01:26:57
Speaker
And then I'll race the second half of the full Larrak into trail. So managing to see the whole thing in the most unconventional way you could possibly do Wow. and there Yeah, it'll be it'll be fascinating to see how that race comes together. Like if I run 50k two weeks out and then spend five days hiking one ah hundred and twenty k who knows what kind of version you'll get with me at the start line. But that's what I want to do.
01:27:22
Speaker
Like if we look at your recent results, you were Great Ocean Trail Ultra. that how How many weeks before Grampians was that? Was that the one that was before the Grampians?
01:27:32
Speaker
Yeah, that was, i did 100k three weeks before. Yeah. And then you went and did some hiking and then most recently you've done in a few 50k's and went and did the hiking. So, hey, I reckon we're in for a new course record.
01:27:45
Speaker
but Yeah, don't don't fix it if it ain't broke. Exactly, exactly. But then my plan is to ah keep driving north from Alice Springs up to Darwin. My partner will be living up in Darwin by then. We'll spend some time together.
01:28:00
Speaker
And then... And then all of a sudden i'm that little bit closer to Europe And so I'm flying over regardless of world champs. That was always my plan ah to be in Europe for the back half of the year. And i think what I'll do is I'll plot some races, I'll pencil us some races in regardless of world champs. And depending on that answer, then I'll kind of determine whether I tow the line or whether I don't.
01:28:27
Speaker
But the one race that's standing out to me at this point is the Ultra Trail. Monterosa in in Italy. Now there's there's two versions of this.
01:28:40
Speaker
There's the original version of this race, which is 100 miler. That's not what I'll be lining up for. There's another one that's a by UTMB race that offers a 90k with 7,700 meters of whoa and I know, absolutely insane. And and this kind of harks back to what we were talking about before is this is a race that absolutely scares the hell out of me. And I went, all right, that's the feeling, then we should try and conquer it I like it.
01:29:09
Speaker
I like it. trying to Trying to push that comfort zone, which unfortunately, the more you push it, the harder it gets to push it as well. Well, exactly. But yeah, yeah searching searching for the limit is an enjoyable pursuit.
01:29:20
Speaker
The longer it lasts, the and more things you have to do. And is there a drive to going back to GPT? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I definitely don't feel like that race is unfinished necessarily. Like I run 142Ks, 160K race. Like I got pretty damn close.
01:29:41
Speaker
The one thing that I didn't get to experience was that finish line, which would have been bloody nice. But I do just think that that race is so world class. That trail is spectacular. It makes sense as a point to point.
01:29:55
Speaker
And um I'm happy to give it a year breathing room. to to see what it becomes as ah as a world major and as a national champs.
01:30:07
Speaker
So, yeah, I look forward to seeing what it becomes and and hopefully jumping in a super, super deep field in a year or two years or whatever it becomes. But, yeah, fingers crossed that race has a long history because it's had a rough trot the last few years. um But I think they know what they're on to there.
01:30:27
Speaker
and fingers crossed the grampians can just survive this climate crisis my god it's it's had a bad run yeah i do have biases because i was involved with with with single track there however the grampians is a very special place it is even if you are not spiritual you cannot avoid the spirituality of that place and the people and the connection to country and it is one of the most epic trails it's yeah so the track work that they've done out there is incredible world class yeah so yeah i mean this is an unsponsored situation for me like that place means the world to me and also
01:31:09
Speaker
the surrounding towns could really, really use a bit of love because their tourist season got wiped this year. So get out there. And it's not the only race. Like I said, this is not a single track one. so Because you you've done a couple of other races in the Grand Pinzera, haven't you?
01:31:26
Speaker
Yeah, I've done three. So GPT being one of them. But prior to that, I raced the Wonderland. It was then a sixty five k I And I've also raced the trails.
01:31:39
Speaker
uh, Pigs and Trails race, which happens down the Southern end in Dunkeld. And I did that as a, a multi-day. So did an mountain race and then a 50 K the following day. And that, that is such ah a good race. I need to give a shout out to Pigs and Trails because they're a really small community event who show me so much love just in supporting what I do.
01:31:58
Speaker
And that's not financial. That's just cheering me on from the sidelines and everything. So yeah, give them some love because small community events will, um, will be the king of the sport.
01:32:08
Speaker
Yeah.
Final Thoughts and Life Advice
01:32:09
Speaker
Yeah. Beautiful. All right, Ben, is there anything that we haven't touched on or you feel like that we could have gone, you want to go deeper on?
01:32:20
Speaker
I'm actually impressed about how much we did touch on in the end. I think we've, we've managed to kind of touch on all elements of trail running in life and, I feel very content with yeah the discussions we've had and what I've been able to share with you.
01:32:32
Speaker
Okay, good. Good. I'm glad. I'm glad. the The running element is awesome. You're an incredibly good runner and I'm really excited to see where the rest this year goes, but there's the person behind the runner as well and doing the research, I was like, okay, I need to, I want to help you share your story. So I hope, I hope we've done that.
01:32:50
Speaker
I try, i try to leave with a question that's reflective in the sense of, you're giving advice to that, that version of you beforehand, um, but for yourself, I almost want you to be reflective, giving yourself advice for the next year or two, as you keep pursuing this professional element of the sport and you try to see what you're capable of.
01:33:11
Speaker
about what you need to stay connected to and remind yourself of what's what's going to be the most important thing for you going forward from this point i think um this this probably isn't very good professional advice but um we've we've spoken about this before um good people do good things and i think running Running may come and go, but being a good person and you know making sure that you spread the joy that you feel is so paramount to me. So for me, it's just about making sure that I'm giving myself the best opportunity to be good in what I do. And that isn't just running, but it will inevitably bleed into running.
01:33:53
Speaker
And yeah, I hope to be a good person moving forward. And I hope that that shows. And if I'm not running well, then I hope that my gratitude for life in the sport can just inspire others to be good runners and be good people.
01:34:10
Speaker
Perfect. Well, you were one of the first people to reach out to me when I joined the podcast and with saying kind of things. And I could tell almost straight away, that you're a good person so i think i think i think you are displaying yourself in the right light thank you so much for coming on the podcast and i've really enjoyed the last nearly hour and 40 talking to you to everyone that's listening i hope you've enjoyed that have a wonderful day and ben thank you so much for coming on thank much for having me james