Transcript
Speaker: a There's an interesting sense of officialness to what you're doing. Like we are playing a game. We have a table here. We are around the table.
Speaker: Hello, friends. Welcome to Tabletop Tangents, a podcast about running tabletop RPGs, writing stories, and sometimes the meandering paths we take in pursuit of creativity and inspirations.
Speaker: Tangent 16, the premium experience.
Speaker: Premium. I feel like though, but maybe before, you know, we start talking about this and what this means, what this is, I feel like, is there any sort of other clothing or material or linen related stuff that we need to bring up? and i think with I mean, we'll be talking about books a little bit, but.
Speaker: ah I mean, we we, there's like. How do you like your coffee? Let's talk about the way we prepare our coffee. Well, I don't like coffee, but Booth has a whole thing about coffee. So there's a whole thing about that. We could certainly talk about that. She's very ritual oriented.
Speaker: Yes. Oh, yeah. And she drinks a lot of it. And we have, there's related to that is the cats associated with it. So it's, it's, it's a whole thing. And, and our cats also have other things like,
Speaker: I mean, we we could talk about all this, but I don't know i don't know how how interesting it is or appropriate. but Well, and I think we kind of thought the same thing about fitted sheets. yeah so yeah know yeah i mean, what we do for our pets, with our pets, you know I love them very much. And and and so i I put up with a lot.
Speaker: for that And that that's okay. um But it's it's interesting what they do and what I'm willing to to deal with, you know.
Speaker: we can't This is why we can't have nice things is the is the short version of that. Sure. But I'm sure that we could get into all that. Dodd is not here today. No. Yeah. Dodd is not with us today. So we'll let we'll save the we'll save the conversation for some other just life things. Yes. Because i actually, I wouldn't mind talking about coffee preparation at some point in time. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole thing there. Oh, there is is definitely a whole thing. And, you know, and it I'm sure ah most of it doesn't make any difference whatsoever. Right. And I'm sure that that will probably also get me in trouble as well. But there you go.
Speaker: Yes. no And yet there will be, you know, reams of discussions about that. And they'll just completely ignore any gaming related stuff. you have ah Yeah.
Speaker: um No, we are talking, the premium experience we're talking about is everything essentially not, that is essentially not or only mildly related to the game being played, right? um But it yet enhances the game.
Speaker: i mean, and there's some, there's some. Yeah, that is that's the that's, I think, ah a fundamental part of the question, right? is' Is it necessary? How much does it make a difference? And and so, like, what what Chris is hinting at is, how much does it make a difference that Pinnacle includes...
Speaker: poker chip bennies in their box sets, right? How much does it make a difference that we have nice little three by five archetype cards that are printed and have color art and have layout and trade dress and all that stuff when we're sitting down to play at a table? How much difference does that make?
Speaker: Right. And pledged let's not forget, like even the the little, like the like the large size condition cards, right? the The little circles, you know, for each condition that you can put, you know, next to binnies that you might be using, you know, not necessarily necessary, but yet at the same time, they do enhance...
Speaker: And help the experience. They do. And it's not just Pinnacle. No. Lots of other companies are doing this too. And we talked off air about map tiles and card decks and all this stuff that you can get to enhance your games. Yeah.
Speaker: Miniatures, you know, three d printing, all this other stuff that's available now that was either harder to get um before or hard to get at such a premium now, like to get such quality.
Speaker: Yes, actually, so let's talk about that a little bit because the I think of for this subject as a whole, and I do like this subject because I think that there's – It says something about the state of the hobby, e where we're at with this kind of stuff.
Speaker: But, like, clearly back in early 80s, mid eighty s even the 90s to a certain degree, like this stuff wasn't commonplace.
Speaker: I mean, yes, there was certainly some out there. You know, i know that the Dwarven Forge, for example, as far as like terrain goes, has been around for a very long time. But...
Speaker: This type of stuff is almost more the norm now than... It's just omnipresent. It's always there. like why Why has this come up the way it is? Is the is the is it because...
Speaker: More people are in the hobby and there's more disposable income. Is the ability to print these things or create these things cheaper? Is it because a different type of creative individual or individuals has entered this hobby and realized, oh, there's a niche that I can fill that fits my skill set because I'm a graphic designer or because maybe I'm an interior decorator and I know how to add and enhance these types of things to you know level up someone's game. like
Speaker: That's the thing I find fascinating about this is just how this has all just bloomed almost seemingly out of nowhere. Yeah. And i I'm like, how much of it is just...
Speaker: You know, gamers who've had a passion for this for a long time saying, oh, my opportunity is here. My opportunity is here to create something that is part of my game, that is very special.
Speaker: Like we can do something really cool here. We can make 3D terrain for it, or we can, we can do something like above and beyond these components for this particular board game. We can make metal.
Speaker: Isn't that cool? Or we can do some custom dice or crazy stuff that, yeah that that it was hard to do before, right? And and is it is it passion? Is it like, i I want to share this because I want my my game to be a premium experience for people? Or is it graphic designers coming in and saying there's a niche to fill and we can we can make money doing this or all of the above? and i don't know. And the question I think that we're trying to ask here is how much difference does that make?
Speaker: Like how important is that to you, to me, to GMs, to players? Like ah there are undoubtedly going to be people who say, ah, it's not important to me.
Speaker: I'll take a black and white crappily printed on a ditto machine, whatever. And I can play my game. But That's not true of everybody. And it may not even be true of the people who say that, you know, depending on what particular game they're talking about.
Speaker: I think at least for me, so, cause, cause I'm kind of someone of that mentality. You know, I am happy with, if you roll out, you know, a wet erase map and you draw on there with your markers and just, you know, and you're not even really following the lines, you know, so the the square grid that's on the map isn't being, you know, done to a T or whatever.
Speaker: Like, yeah, I can be extremely happy with that because of my imagination absolutely will fire off and I can get into the description. And clearly it it's been established now. I imprint personalities on NPCs who have none.
Speaker: And so i'm you know I'm doing that now and ah in a visual means as well as far as like what my character is doing. But yet, at the same time... If somebody rolls out, and I'm guilty of this on the GM side, and ah because I've done this. Oh, I see you unpack for your games. Yeah, specially printed stuff. So but it this so if this custom map is rolled out and and it has these various chambers on there and all of this extra detail, and maybe there's mood lighting on the map or whatever, it...
Speaker: It's just so cool. It just looks cool. And that's just a map. You know, we're not even talking about the other. And that's just two dimensional. Yeah. But do I feel like my gaming experience is enhanced because of this?
Speaker: I don't know. You know what I mean? i'd so like, could that... i i could say that The overall experience certainly has been enhanced.
Speaker: Like if someone does use ah three d terrain, um you know, i had a I had to get away with a bunch of ah a bunch of buddies and we just we went away up to a cabin up in the Northwoods and we played games and somebody did indeed bring out their 3D printed terrain. and set up the maps, you know, each room and we had the walls and we had the floors and it was the dungeon tile and it was, in it just, it was gorgeous because it was, it was painted or it was printed that way.
Speaker: And the game itself was fine. um But the overall experience, because of the presence of this, did add to it. It was neat to move around in that space. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: you know um
Speaker: I don't know. I mean, how do you feel about it? I mean, where do you lie on this? Well, I have certainly participated in it, right? So we make a joke around here and around Pinnacle in general that am no Karl Kiesler, right? Yeah.
Speaker: And who is? Who is, really? um Carl Kiesler is a very awesome GM, particularly like Savage Worlds. He's also a designer of his own stuff.
Speaker: And um he's a graphic designer by day. which gives him an unfair advantage over a lot of us. But um he creates games that have premium experiences.
Speaker: I mean, he's got 3D terrain. He's got these custom printed archetype sheets, cards, or or tapes, or however whatever he does. It's crazy. Oh, yeah. and and he's got, you know, like...
Speaker: ah his His game of of of cocaine shark or whatever the heck it was um it's basically Trailer Park Shark Attack, which is what he he wrote that with his partner. and And it's his version of that, but he but he's he created a whole trailer park. He's got trailers out there. He's got flower pots. He's got, you know...
Speaker: Like all the stuff. And then i'm i was picking my, of his 20 archetypes or who are going to all die, by the way, because the first crit failure you make, you're going to die. And I took the mud bogger and i'm like, well, it says here on my sheet that i get a I get a monster truck. Where's my monster truck? He said, oh, there you go. And so, he you know, he greeps behind him. He grabs a monster truck and sticks it on the, on the,
Speaker: on the map and I'm just great. Perfect. And, and it's, it's, it's a premium experience. He goes so far as to, as to use like the, the stuffing inside of like quilts and he shapes them and forms them and then distresses them with spray paint and uses led lights inside them to create like smoke from a grenade.
Speaker: Like this is the kind of stuff he does. It's amazing. And to say whether that enhances the game is a no-brainer. Of course it enhances the game.
Speaker: But see, is what I think... Because it's funny, first first of all, um he definitely has been an inspiration to me to a certain level. um i ah I can't do what he does, just like you said, who who truly who can? But at the same time, i can certainly be inspired by some of the things that I've experienced in his games. like and And custom character sheets to help fit the mood of the game that I'm trying to play.
Speaker: Absolutely. I've done that for two or three events now. and And I like doing it. I like creating that extra thing because, and I've seen the looks on players' faces when they get the sheets and they kind of, they can pick up on the mood of what's happening there. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But let's see if I can... I got off on my own tangent. i'm trying to remember what I was saying about but Carl. so But I think the thing with Carl's games is that that is part of the experience. I think the game wouldn't be the same without all of that stuff. If you didn't have...
Speaker: those if he didn't have those elements for, yeah, Cocaine Shark or Trailer Park Shark Attack or even the um Three Amigos Blazing Saddles crossover adventure that that he did also, which had a lot of great things. And he was able to find minis that fit all of those character types and then paint them to make them look that way. They weren't necessarily made to be like, there weren't three amigos miniatures. They were just minis that were close. And then he got them over the finish line. Yep. Yep. um
Speaker: But I think that that's all of that contributes to that experience. You know, you couldn't, the event just wouldn't be the same without it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: And one thing that I will say is that Carl is a very good GM. So it's it's not enough. And this is the thing that's really, I think, important. It's not enough to have those premium experience portions and the 3D terrain, the minis, all the stuff. You can have all that. Great.
Speaker: But if the underlying game isn't... good, then it's it it sort of almost detracts from the experience to me.
Speaker: And part of what what makes Carl's game so good is he's a very good GM. He knows the lane he is in he's very good at that lane. And and he makes of stupid, simple, very straightforward games, a lot of times based on existing properties, but he doesn't do anything like I do. like he doesn't He's self-admitted. He played in my Harry Potter game once. He loved it, but he's like, I cannot do what you do.
Speaker: And that is depth of character. That is all the stuff that i bring to a one shot that I love. Like he knows he can't do that, but he does his own thing and he's very, very good at it. And so the experience is not just premium in, in the visual and tactile elements. It's premium in that the game underlying all that is very good as well.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. yeah And I think if you don't have that, and I've played in games with with all the tactile stuff that just doesn't, they don't they don't measure up because the underlying idea or execution just isn't there yet.
Speaker: they've They've spent all their time on the other stuff. Yeah, the the the analogy I like to make with that is um it's a ah Prince of Egypt, the movie analogy. And you have Steve Martin and Martin Short's characters who are the Pharaoh's mages. I can't remember what their exact term is and from the movie. But...
Speaker: Or we could even we could even reference a Wizard of Oz in a certain sense. It is all flash and smoke and illusion, but the but the actual, the depth, the meat of it isn't there. It's an emperor's new clothes sort of thing, really. you know you're you're not You're trying to hide your lack of, yeah, what's good by having all this other cool stuff. and um
Speaker: I know for me, like when I design stuff, i events and whatnot, like i I want to have a good event. I like to have some flash, but I also don't want that to... like I do find myself checking. like Am I just...
Speaker: Am I just doing this? Like I especially did that with having a clue because I use a clue board. have the custom character sheets. I even made custom printouts for the minis, which are minis are just basically just little disks with the pictures in there, little coin holders, you know.
Speaker: um But yet it has the character portrait on there, that kind of stuff. And i found myself asking myself,
Speaker: is this flash hiding something that like, is this, is is this a shitty adventure? Would this be fun without the flash? this be fun without those things? and Polishing a turd. Polishing a turd. Exactly. Exactly. It's still turd.
Speaker: But, you know, and so if I can, at least if I can answer that question that yes, this is still good and it would be fine without it. um And then I at least feel good about the flash that I have in there. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And so I've ramped up my, like, partially because of my experiences with Carl's Tables, obviously, but but partially because I just want to get better at it, right? And and that i've I've ramped it up in the sense that when i create an adventure for cons that I'm going to run over and over,
Speaker: I try to think in terms of what can I do to flash this up a little bit, not Carl level. Nobody can do Carl level, but I can do the best that I can. And that means with Horizon, for example, I use a neoprene Battletech map that is thematic to what we're doing. I do love those. now you know. i had I asked my friend Paul to paint the minis from the Horizon board game so that I had the minis. And um i I created my own character sheets that, you know, i'm channeling inner Carl. Carl liked them, but I can't do what he does. And then I laminated them, which Carl usually doesn't do. He usually...
Speaker: prints them and leaves them that way, which probably looks nicer actually than laminating them. But I just did because I'm like, I only want to do this once. i don't want to, you know, have to print them again. He has access to printing stuff that I don't. So I would have to pay to have him printed again.
Speaker: And, um, so I, I, I did my best and I did my own graphic design with horizon. Same with, um, with Harry Potter. So I created my own little stupid character sheets back before I knew InDesign. So they're they're not as cool, but they're they're good. They're fine. And then I bought whole bunch of stuff.
Speaker: Like I bought wands. And like, it's stupid. It sounds stupid on the surface. Like like I have a whole thing where you're going to all of Anders and the wand is going to choose you, you know?
Speaker: And it's great. It really does work. But when I first ran it, first play test, I did it with my local group and Daryl was skeptical. He's like, i don't know, props, you know?
Speaker: And and then then we did it and he's like, no, no, actually, this actually really works. Having a wand to so to to to swish and flick when you're casting a spell works for this game.
Speaker: And i'm like, okay, I'm not just wasting people's time, right? But also the underlying experience. I spent much more time on that than I did buying the wands, getting the stuff, making sure that i I did as best I could for the presentation. I spent way more time making sure that adventure was solid and worthy of the components that I was going to spend hundreds of dollars on later.
Speaker: See, what I like about that, and I have not played in this, but what I like about that, especially when when it comes to props, and again, I'm a fan of of props of all shapes and sizes, ah colors and creeds, but... um I think there is a difference between having like a cool castle tower, which just kind of sits there because you're playing a fantasy adventure. and You may or may not use it, but it's there as an accent to like your part of the table.
Speaker: to Versus um wands, which certainly, yep, there's there's no in-game mechanics to it. But yet at the same time, you've now integrated that prop. into how the games... And it helps... I would have to imagine anyway, it helps the players get into the game more because you know they they can identify that. They've seen that in the movies.
Speaker: They may know the wrist motions. They certainly may know some of the the words. i mean They may recognize the ones. Yeah, not being a pothead, i can app but i can I can respect that this is...
Speaker: Like this would be a cool thing. And I like and i like that i think that that. I think that there's a big difference between something that just sits there and something that you can integrate like that. um I'd be very curious, when you did that, like at first time or any time, really, have you ever had any new players, like just like new, new players or where they all like experienced Savage Worlds? Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. i've had i've I've run it enough that I've had new players. I've Potterheads. I've had non-Potterheads. I've run the gamut, right? And part of the underlying creation of the adventure is so that anybody who steps in is going to have fun, whether they know Harry Potter or not.
Speaker: But if you do know it, There's a whole lot of stuff that will resonate and hopefully that you can go, oh, that is that's a very cleverly integrated thing.
Speaker: right And that took a lot of effort. But yeah, so I've had new players and I run hide all that stuff.
Speaker: i hide all that stuff So when I'm sitting down, I've got my thing full of the wands and the clues and the laminated, laid out things that I've created for this game. It's all hidden in a box that's sitting next to me.
Speaker: And I don't bring out the wands until they hit Ollivanders. And then I do one at a time. And he pulls out a wand and says, well, try it. Give it a wave. And he holds it out for you to to take.
Speaker: And then you have to roll your spellcasting at minus two because you're you're new to this. You don't know what the hell you're doing. and You're untrained. And so the whole idea is that you know you roll it. And if you fail, then you've broken some stuff and blah, blah, blah. And he takes it back from you and he produces another wand.
Speaker: He says, try this one instead. Now you don't have the penalty. Roll spellcasting, right? Because he's getting closer to what's... Good for you, right? And so it doesn't take long before they get one. they'll Somebody will get a crazy raise. you know They'll fix the damage somebody else did or whatever. And the experience of that introduces them to the world of Harry Potter while I'm playing Harry Potter music, especially in a quiet setting if I can if i have one.
Speaker: And um they get, even if they don't know Harry Potter, they get a sense of what this is, what this is like. And now we're flash forwarding two years. You guys have been in Hogwarts for some odd of time and that was your first meeting together. Right. And so now here's the beginning of the adventure.
Speaker: And having those at the table and having little cards at the table that is say, you have a Remembrall. You have a Hogwarts or history that Dumbledore himself gave you.
Speaker: Might have something. might be so Might be special. You never know. You know, little things like that. that it i don't have a super premium experience because I can't do what Carl does. But I try my best. But see, I would i would i would still classify that as premium because...
Speaker: the the the The wands themselves are just... you know, they're nice wands. They're they're they're they're they're authentic wands. Yeah. and um And if you have the music there enhancing that as well, now you have you have something you have something um to the sense of touch, you have something to the ears, you know. It's anchors, like the yeah the the memories of what this is, and now we're immersed. Now we know we're here, right? Yeah. Yeah. Let's cover the a little bit more of the so some of the Savage World stuff, um and then we can go. and and Because we were before we started recording, we really kind of lamented about premium gaming tables. and Yes, we did. i also want to just touch on chip theory games, but we'll get there.
Speaker: Okay. So, yeah, I think... you in Savage Worlds, we have we have the bennies. um And of course, i mean, you have that you have the base set that comes with that core box.
Speaker: um But then there's also custom Deadlands bennies. There Deadlands Lost Colony bennies. Holler bennies. Holler bennies. Middle school bennies. There's all kinds. All of them. They're just, they're all over the place.
Speaker: Technically, not necessary. Yeah. But yet... They're just like I to the point where like when I was running my Deadlands game, I had I have i in my little Harbor Freight cargo carrier that I have for all of my freaking Savage World stuff.
Speaker: I have mixed in my my regular Savage Worlds pennies and my Deadlands pennies. I take them all out, but I will purposely.
Speaker: give all my players the Deadlands bennies first. ah and the there's there's There's no difference. They look different. They're key to the game. But I consciously give them the bennies first, and then I will just take the regular bennies because they're behind my screen. So that way, if I do reward them with more bennies, then i'm able i have extra Deadlands ones to reward them with, and I'll tap into the originals only when i if i if I run out for whatever reason.
Speaker: And I can't explain why I do that beyond the fact that, well, these are the deadlines, Benny's. Yeah. And it it so somehow, some deep down, it matters. It does. Yeah, it does. Somehow it it absolutely does matter. And GMs will come up with their own Benny's. That's the other thing is, is it's not just the premium experience that Pinnacle provides. It's the premium experience that Pinnacle encourages. Yeah. Because of these bennies and the the the mechanical benefit that they have and the way they work in the game, people will come up like, Harry Potter, I've got these really heavy gold, like bullion bennies that I use that Ron gave me, right? They're they're awesome. And and it's...
Speaker: it's It matters. It matters. ah It does. I use little golf pencils with the little ah pencil erasers on them. I use those for like Pinebox Middle School and ETU, for example. yep Sure. Sure. Yeah. So it matters. Like it does. Yeah. I bought, um when I started running a Noir game, I went and bought the the action decks. There were two different colors that ah Pinnacle is selling for the Noir action decks. This was in the the the the deluxe edition days.
Speaker: um I didn't need them. I had the new, the larger print action deck, but that's, you know, very generic Savage Worlds. yeah These noir ones definitely fit ah the the feel and the mood.
Speaker: And we were playing a virtual game. I didn't need to purchase these at all. You know, we we're just playing over discord. And but yet here I went and did it. And so like when it be initiative, I'd hold up that that card deck for them. Yeah. and but again,
Speaker: It matters, you know. yeah um it it It makes a little bit of a difference. it It does make a little bit difference. I mean, even to the point where, um who I can't remember who it was who posted it on the Discord.
Speaker: They had for the Doghouse Rules Occult City, Savage World Setting. Carl Kiesler. Carl is involved with. His partner, Chris. Yep. Yes. I should remember that name, you'd think. But um ah they showed a picture of the custom cards that you can get printed, you know, as part of your backing level. And again, not needed.
Speaker: But I also ah am getting mine. they're they're being They're in the process of being printed. And I'm looking forward to having them. I don't even know when I'm going to use them. But again, it's it's one of those it's one of those things.
Speaker: Yeah, and you know same with archetype cards. Same with the GM screen even. like you don't need the GM screen, but... There might be something to that, right? See, you know, here's where I actually would argue with this, but that particular one, I think that you do.
Speaker: Need it? Yes, because if I remember correctly, in the recent difference between the main Savage World GM screen and the Deadlands GM screen, there are different tables printed. There are So there is a functional there's a functional difference that's there. For sure.
Speaker: But again... Yeah. Is it needed? Is it really needed? I mean, you still have the screen that has a lot of the core tables that you're going to need on there. And you can always look up because you have your premium printed books with the with the nice bookmark.
Speaker: With the ribbon bookmarks. Ribbons, Gloss spot covers and the whole thing. But the also the GM screen provides that big panorama view. Like, this is Deadlands. Welcome.
Speaker: You know, we get yeah you know amazing cover art. Like, it's... it's it's It's all part of it. It's all part of it. And then I don't know. you know that the
Speaker: i i admit it's not necessary. You have a good fundamental game. You don't need this stuff. Right. Right. But I also want to say I've been playing a lot of chip theory games, which I mentioned before, and they're board games, but they are premium, premium board games. And what i mean by that is they don't have cardboard playing surfaces, boards. They don't have regular cardboard boards. They have neoprene.
Speaker: boards Okay. they don't have paper cards they have pvc cards with foil on them they don't have like they they they use poker chips like like pinnacle does but they use poker chips as bad guys and good guys.
Speaker: And so they use they have a whole mechanic where they have hex neoprene maps and stuff, and they have health chips that go under the poker chips to indicate how much health you have. And when you hurt somebody, all you have to do is lift up a little bit, kick off two health chips, and the stack goes lower.
Speaker: It's really cool. It's very clever. And it's very expensive. But is it worth it? Yes.
Speaker: To me, it is. it is and And only because the underlying games are also worthy of these components. It's not just a throwaway game that they're just tossing out there that they didn't test, that they didn't care about. No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker: There is clear... passion here not only for a premium game experience a tactile experience with these heavy chips with with these amazing cards with ah just the whole neoprene mats all the whole thing but they've made a good game underneath this and so it's a tactile experience and going back to a regular old board game with paper components and all this stuff i'm just like oh
Speaker: okay You know? And it's it's not that this is a bad game. It's just... this That experience has spoiled me a little because it's just like, geez, it's not just that it's tactically satisfying, but that they actually have a really good game here and that they have passionate people behind it who clearly care, who are like, okay, i want to i want i want this I want people to experience this in this way.
Speaker: And I'm in awe of it. I think that... c To me, i think when it comes to board games, I think that all of that kind of stuff is necessary.
Speaker: um i having and i' and i've played I've played a couple, but I don' think i think that ah one that stands out to me, um was it Kingdom Death Monster, I think is what it was. Okay.
Speaker: um that game would not have been the same if it hadn't been for all of the amazing stuff that came with it. the just the the The artwork is absolutely stunning in there. The the the the game board ah is, if I'm remembering right, it's it's it's very evocative. The minis themselves are also...
Speaker: They just they just they stand out in it. There's something about all of those components kind of working in concert with each other to make it really interesting.
Speaker: I think another board game that does this on a different level, on a more like commercial mass ah mass market sort of level, Risk Legacy.
Speaker: in That game, i did not... well Okay, so this, I'm curious now to see what your reaction is is, what I'm about to describe. I've played a little bit of, I've played Risk Legacy, not all the way through, but some. Okay, all right. So then you're goingnna you're going to remember parts of this where when certain things happen in the game, you have to tear up the cards and tear up...
Speaker: who did I have a problem doing that? I've also played, I've, I have played through the whole thing of pandemic legacy, which is actually very, very good. Oh, that one. I haven't. I think, I think I had the opportunity to, but we, for some reason we chose something different, but, but the, the components that come with risk legacy that change the experience as you continue to play because of the, of what happens in the previous, in previous iterations of the game.
Speaker: um, and and you have these mystery packets that you can't open, you know, that, and they and and what's in there isn't necessarily super spectacular, but you don't know.
Speaker: And that enhances that game experience. It is, to me, that's that's that's a fun element that's added in there. And, um yeah, and i think I think, granted, it doesn't have maybe, like, that level of...
Speaker: Artwork in detail as what some of these other ones might do because of the nature of it being mass market. But at the same time, it does provide, I think, a premium experience for the type of game because of the way in which the game goes and how the components that you can uncover and use that you can't use right away um add to that.
Speaker: Were you able to handle when stuff had to get ripped up and put away or thrown away? You could handle that? Yeah, I did. I mean, it was weird. This goes back to our book discussion. Yes, it does. And I was like, well, no, this is the game. This is what we signed up for. And I knew it going in, right? And yes, whatever pandemic legacy was, 90 some odd dollars or something.
Speaker: But I knew it was, we're doing this once. Mm-hmm. and But I'm doing it with a group that, you know, we're all on board with it and it was way fun. It was way worth it.
Speaker: What's interesting to me is I just went Gen Con and I went to the, I forget the name of the publisher, but the one who does Gloomhaven, Frosthaven, those guys. Gloomhaven has legacy elements. Yeah.
Speaker: Right? So you put stuff on stuff and it lasts forever. Like it it you're making permanent changes to the game. Now though, they have these removable sticker packs.
Speaker: So that you don't have to deface your game in order to play it. There's too many people who have trauma like me with that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so so that that was interesting to me too. I'm like, oh yeah, I think I would rather have that, right? Not not be able not have to destroy my game in order to enjoy it.
Speaker: But at the same time, the legacy aspect of of pandemic and risk for that matter was, yeah, we know what we're going in for. And part of the fun of it is to be able to say, okay, this card is gone. Yeah. ripping it in half and it's gone. oh And now it's forever over. Yeah. Legacy.
Speaker: Which I mean, see, and that's the thing is like, i i see I should have had a much better attitude about it like you did. And I just, boy, I really, every time. And then they would do it slowly in front of me, knowing that this was ah this was a traumatic thing for me. But it was already like, part of it is like you have those things that are sealed that are they're unopened, like a you know particular box and risk legacy that...
Speaker: introduces a whole new faction. I won't spoil it for you for the people who actually want to play this game at some point. But um the box is now open. There is no...
Speaker: Putting it back. yeah There is no like not knowing what it is now. You know what it is. That's part of the fun of it is the discovery of what you're going to find. And so the replayability, it's not designed for that. It's designed for you to destroy it Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And that's part of the, that's part of the fun of it. I think, you know, it's not that i relish those games. I haven't played one. I've only played pandemic all the way through partially, partially risk, but, um, and I, and I understand the, the desire to have removable stickers for gloom Haven because gloom Haven is a fricking expensive game and it's very highly expensive.
Speaker: revered Right. And so I get why people would want, okay, no, no, I want to replay this and I don't want to deface my game. So removal stickers it is. So I don't know. I, I, yeah, we've gone off on a tangent a bit, but we have I, it's, it's part of the experience, this this you know, defacing your game board for pandemic, putting stickers down,
Speaker: And saying, okay, this is a permanent block to this area or whatever. It's over. We can't go in there anymore. it's it's Hopefully we can save the rest of the world, but this this there these poor saps are dead.
Speaker: oh Yeah. but But yeah, I don't i don't i don't know. i i i think there's something to be said for it, and but I'll always come back to, is the game underlying this good?
Speaker: If it's not good, then it's not worth it. Right. And that ultimately, like certainly with Risk Legacy is it's it is good. It is just a good, fun game.
Speaker: And um and it's such a nice spin on the traditional. Game of Risk that, yeah, it's that it ultimately I was OK with it, but yet still. Yeah, I've also played games that are.
Speaker: Have had all that stuff. That put a shine on it. That like here all these, you know, there's hundreds of minis. Here are all these awesomely printed cards with a very specific like, you know, um look to them, like this whole theming going on. It's beautiful. It's...
Speaker: unique it's it's It's very specific in the terms of of how you're how it's making you feel. But underneath that is a game that just isn't that good.
Speaker: Yeah. and and um And you don't realize it until later. You don't realize it until it kind of sucks. and you're like yeah Until the flash wears off.
Speaker: And now I've paid $100 for a game that is not very good. And then you start thinking, how can I cannibalize these parts to make them, to use them in my other games?
Speaker: Yes, you do that. And if that doesn't work, how can I pawn this off to some other sucker so that they can feel that premium experience? And maybe they'll find the game good. But I didn't.
Speaker: yeah It's like, yeah, this is fundamentally flawed. And to to me, and it's to me, this is I'm not saying it for everybody, um but...
Speaker: But the premium experience is not worth the money. is And not only I only, had to buy it and play it to find that out. Yeah. And that's why I'm in awe, it's such awe of Chip Theory Games, who did Too Many Bones, who's, it's 10 years old and they're starting to make a new one now.
Speaker: There's, they've got The Elder Scrolls, Betrayal of the Second Era, which is freaking amazing. Cloud Spire, which I want to get. And like they have their own thing and and man, it just shines through the passion and and dedication to quality of at all levels that they put into these games and the the subsidizing that they do to get these games to market.
Speaker: I think that that really when you look at it with all of these things, and then and then I'll say this and let's we'll we'll talk about it we'll talk about tables. um Because I think that this actually segues into that nicely. I think that you are you've hit the nail on the head twice.
Speaker: All of these products and these things, you know, and and we've talked about my current obsession with various card decks and and all that other stuff. Behind that, though, is indeed, it is like that that passion for what these are really comes through.
Speaker: You know, and, you know, you talk about we talk about custom minis, you know, in Hero Forge. And i think there's even I think there's another site, too, that now does those. but Even something that's electronically based like that, there's definitely a passion behind it. um you know And and it does. It carries through.
Speaker: um So these are these are people who, I don't know, they've realized a different way, a different outlet for their talents.
Speaker: And yeah, okay, so maybe there's a motivation to make money as well, which clearly a lot of them do. Otherwise, they wouldn't continue. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Speaker: um But it's, ah it does. it it really It really shows through just in how some of this stuff just looks and feels and does enhance the overall experience of the game.
Speaker: And from it from a publisher's standpoint, it attracts customers to you. Like you're like, people go back to Pinnacle Kickstarters because they know they're going to get a quality product. They're going to get it good books with spot UV and ribbons and hardback and beautifully constructed and really well done.
Speaker: They're going to get bennies. they're going to get all the stuff that's that's premium. right They're willing to pay for it. And that dedication goes beyond just their Kickstarters. It's like, oh I want to follow them.
Speaker: I want to know what they're doing. I want to know about the people behind this game because there's clearly passion there. Yeah, I was sold on Deadlands, Dark Ages, just the whole the whole lead up to it, all of that. like i was I absolutely knew I was going to back it, excited to do so, looking forward to it.
Speaker: But the the tabletop terrain for the village, that... Yeah, yeah for Dark Ages, that to me was um Because I love the ponds already ah for a variety of reasons.
Speaker: But this to me, like this next step in that was something that I saw that i'm like, ah I was already in and now I'm even further in, if that's even possible. Because I love the look of that stuff so much.
Speaker: And A, it fits my skill ability as a human being. Oh, I can punch this out and assemble this together. yeah I know how to do that. And I can be careful, you know, but I mean, get me and and and this isn't knocking people who can do this, but like the 3D or the paper train stuff that you can purchase like on drive through or whatever and print up and then create.
Speaker: I don't think I could do that. I mean, I tried it once and it was like, okay, but and that, that may be a level of dedication. I can't necessarily muster, um you know, but this stuff, hell yeah, I can do that.
Speaker: I can do that all damn day. I'll build this little house. I'll build this little hut. Yeah. That's rough. Put a little fire on there. You know, it's the same way with like Everdell. They have these, they have Everdell board games, They have these, most of them have some kind of 3D something that you're putting together as part of the experience, right? Everdell has a tree that you create.
Speaker: Everdell's Silver Frost has a mountain that you're creating, putting the background. And whatever the newest one is, Emerald has something else. I think you're doing something. Easy to put together.
Speaker: All it is is just, you know, the the paperboard stuff and they just tell you how to put it together. and And it's cool. And I was there when Daryl and Simon were trying to figure out how to put together these stupid Dark Ages ah villages.
Speaker: You know, like, okay, how do we how do we do this? How do we print this? How do we coordinate with the printer to get this constructed You know, we have a prototype. Let's try it. All that other stuff. and And so they were like, oh, yeah, this works. This is going to work.
Speaker: This is OK. We can do this. And so now they're excited about it. That's very cool. it It makes me long for the days. If you remember the Pirates of the Spanish Main, when they had their and they had their little cardboard ships that you could put together, you'd buy them. Yeah, those were those are pretty cool, too.
Speaker: Okay, so tables. Tables, yes. We we both were lamenting about this, um tables, but you you go ahead. you go first. Okay, so I have a regular plain old dining room table that works for what I want it to be.
Speaker: And I've made it the way The best I can make it for what it is. And that is I've got a big neoprene mat that is not custom made to fit the table. Shane has one of those. It's very cool. One day I i actually kind of want to do that.
Speaker: He's got one that's custom made to fit his table. It's got the Pinnacle logo on it and all that stuff. It's stitched on the on the edges. you know so Awesome. But I just have a long, big one that I but bought at one of the cons and because I love having a neoprene base for...
Speaker: For my games. It's great. It makes it, this is premium experience. It makes picking up cards easier. It makes sliding them around more satisfying. It makes it feel like you're not ruining them by the grit on the, on the hard table, rubbing against them, all that other stuff. And I also sleeve cards, but you know, that's a whole thing.
Speaker: So But I've looked at these, you know, Carolina game tables, legacy game tables slash Wormwoods slash any number of others that are just you know, extremely expensive, but very nice felt top tables with a lip that has a wooden top that can fit on top of it. Yeah. And I'm like, do one?
Speaker: do i want one And I'm really not sure. i'm really not sure because i don't feel I don't know how I feel about the lip and playing a game with that barrier between me and the gaming surface. i haven't played enough on them to know.
Speaker: yeah And i know that some of our listeners have these tables. So I'll be curious to hear what like John Doom or some others have to say. Yeah. Yeah. i've i've played on I've played on a few, and there is a lot to be said for that sunken, you know, sort of, i don't know, bathtub, I guess, look of these things. but But with the felt and, you know, rolling the dice on there and laying out the map on there, or even if you have the top, you know, covering over there. And so, you know, now you have a hard surface and
Speaker: you have the same thing. There is just a neat feeling of being around one of those. But um even with like the ones that have like cup holders and stuff like that, i'm I find myself somewhat distracted by them.
Speaker: e um I'm not saying I wouldn't take one or have one or buy one, but I find myself distracted by them because the the fear of causing it damage because i know how expensive these are, you know? And so like the moments, like I, even when i would go and take a drink of whatever my drink is, taking something out of the cup holder, I would find myself leaning back You know, to get myself out of the way of the table just in case like my can happens to slide out of my fingers and miraculously drop to the floor. Because I just, I don't want to be the one to to you know, cause it damage. Or if we're playing on the the hard surface, so now I don't have to worry about staining the felt with my spilled drink, I got to make sure that I'm not using my metal dice at all.
Speaker: Get them out of my... I don't want to roll metal dice even on a hard stone table. you know or or or I don't because the ah the the tip on that D4 or the D20, if it's a metal die going in there... And granted, I get it. This is my own paranoia um eating me alive with this. But because they are so nice...
Speaker: you know yeah i can just i hear my mother in my head. you know and into Christopher, don't ruin this. Yeah, don't so get your drink away from it. Exactly, exactly. so i I don't know. i mean, i certainly enjoyed playing around them. I mean, they're fun. They they do add to the experience because there is a there's an interesting sense of
Speaker: officialness to what you're doing. Like we are playing a game. and Everybody quiet. That's right. We have a table here. We are around the table and we are playing a game. And, but that's okay. You know, I mean, if it gets people to get off their phones, so I don't have to say anything to them, I'm ah'm okay with that. You know, but it's, then of course, you know, there's also the ones where, and these ones, i just,
Speaker: I love people's ingenuity when it comes to this stuff, but they they flip the LED table our led screens, TVs, yes or and they'll put the plastic overlay on there, and then they'll plug in their laptop or their tablet, and they'll feed maps, or um they can do sound effects through there, yeah you know or certain like interesting ah almost VTT effects, which we haven't even gotten to, which we're probably not going to get to.
Speaker: But um I love those ones too, because it's ah it's it does it has something to it that a fancy table doesn't. Or even if they use the projector and they project from above, yeah you know, project the screen down. That's also pretty cool.
Speaker: and But I like those ones because it kind of combines a little bit of best of both worlds. where you have this interesting surface that you can play on and you can change what lies underneath it is protected so you can move your minis around there or if it's if you're using a vtt in conjunction with this and the player that can then say i'll move here and then the gm can on the vtt move their counter yeah you know over that's something else too Yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't do it as a GM.
Speaker: I would certainly try it as a player and see if it was too distracting or too whatever, but I don't know. but then the other thing about the – the nice thing about the tables that I didn't get to was the covers. Yeah.
Speaker: So a lot of these have the lip for a reason, so they can have little covers that fit on top. These you know beautiful, shiny, varnished wood oh yeah covers that I know I'm going to destroy um that go on top at the table. And for me, that would be great because i have cats.
Speaker: And i have cats who like to mess with my board games, like to knock shit off the table and and throw dice all over the place and ruin mid, like a game that I'm in the middle of. yeah And so now I have my ghetto solution, which is throw a blanket over it, which works, but you know, it's not sexy. Or I could get one of these tables and have to have Booth help me every time I want to put the cover on.
Speaker: Yeah. i mean, this is why we can't have nice things. I would argue it probably would be sexy if you learned how to remove the blanket with like a magician's flare, you know, like kind of the opposite of pulling out the tablecloth from and keeping at the dinnerware in the same spot.
Speaker: You could just do the big the big magic reveal. Yeah. Yeah, but I can't because something inevitably is like, you know, I've got something there that'll move off of a a yeah place where it's supposed to be and I won't remember where it was. And like, well, were we in day five or were we in day three?
Speaker: You know, so I have to be very careful about removing the blanket. Mm-hmm. I do think that this this is you know in the in the requisite ah to encourage Discord discussion. If there was ever a time to post, not necessarily shelfies, but pictures of what some of your premium experience components are that you have, I mean, this is this is the opportunity to do so.
Speaker: Because, I mean, I think that there's there's definitely stuff that we either sort of like half mentioned or maybe glossed over or didn't mention at all, which I'm actually very curious to see. You know, we – I mean, we had – you had made the mention about the GM screens, but there are like those super high-end GM screens that are, again – premium wood they may fold open have things that fold out have a built-in dice roller on them you know and those ones those ones those things have always been ah huge temptations for me those oh yeah i i just i like i'm i'm a big screen advocate
Speaker: So there's, there I have that working against me. But then on top of that, they just, they really do look pretty. To me, they're very pretty. And if they have cool things, like the ones that have like the...
Speaker: magnetized panels on the, on the GM side of things to where you can like put stuff up um like that. i don't even know if I'd actually be able to make use of that, but the idea of being able to make use of that appeals to me. um ah Yeah. I just, I, I, I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know. Those and the the neoprene Battletech maps like we were talking about before. i haven't been able to i haven't been able to get myself to purchase one. Chris is jealous because I have four of them. Yeah, I agree i genuinely am. they are They are. They're really cool. They're really great. They're worth every penny.
Speaker: Yeah. Because they they're neoprene. They last forever. They're beautifully printed. they They have useful terrain, not just for battle tech. so Yes. It's very adaptable to Savage Worlds. I mean, because it's hexes, which is my preferred movement thing when it comes to Savage Worlds. yeah I have a real problem with grid people.
Speaker: Okay. Okay.
Speaker: Thanks for hanging out with us. Whether you're behind the screen, at the table, or lost in your own story, we hope that you found a little inspiration. If you enjoy our tangents, be sure to connect with us on Discord and follow us on socials to keep the conversation going.
Speaker: Until next time.
Speaker: Don't get me started on Chip Theory Games and how they design for storage. Oh my God. Not only do they have the premium components, all that stuff, but they have the premium storage for those components built into the box. I love that. It is part of the experience.
