Transcript
Speaker: Anything that happens in any state, everybody gets sent into kind of a whirling dervish of a panic. Every few months, there's another headline, proposed bill, or conversation online that leaves intended parents and surrogates wondering, could this impact my journey?
Speaker: And when you're already navigating something as emotional and complex as IVF or surrogacy, it can become really hard to separate fear from reality. I just think the important thing is to have boots on the ground.
Speaker: Today, Assisted Reproductive Technology attorney Joni Franklin returns to the podcast to break down what's actually changing in IVF and surrogacy law, what people should genuinely be paying attention to right now, and how families can still move through this process confidently. I can promise you surrogacy is here to stay. Enjoy.
Speaker: Before we get started, I wanted to provide a little context for today's conversation. This episode was recorded before the recent Texas Senate Health and Human Services Committee hearing on IVF egg donation and surrogacy on July 8th.
Speaker: Since then, there has been increased discussion about the future of family building laws in Texas. As of today, there are no changes to Texas law that prevent families from growing through IVF, egg donation, or surrogacy.
Speaker: We are continuing to follow these conversations closely and remain committed to sharing accurate, up-to-date information as things develop. It's also important to note that while Joni Franklin is an experienced assisted reproductive technology attorney, she practices in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Missouri. The legal principles we discussed throughout this episode are valuable, but laws surrounding assisted reproduction can vary from state to state.
Speaker: If you are considering building your family through third-party reproduction in Texas, one of the most important steps you can take is to work with experienced professionals, including an attorney who specializes in assisted reproductive law in Texas.
Speaker: Individual legal representation helps ensure your unique circumstances are protected throughout the process. We'll continue to keep you informed as the conversation evolves. Thank you so much for listening and thank you for being part of the Create a Happy Family community.
Speaker: With that in mind, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Joni Franklin. Okay, my dear, sweet, amazing Joni. It feels like every few months there is another headline, a proposed bill, a conversation that just leads intended parents, surrogates, egg donors, just wondering, like, how could this impact my journey?
Speaker: How are you seeing that uncertainty affect people right now? Yeah, I think it's very hard on a lot of people, um especially since we're in a 24-hour news cycle, anything that happens in any state.
Speaker: everybody gets sent into kind of a whirling dervish of a panic. ah Obviously we just had some major changes in Florida that are about to come into effect ju July 1. And so that's, we've had upheavals. We've also have ah had some not favorable press coverage um on a few big cases and one out of California,
Speaker: I think the Wall Street Journal is all up in our our business at this point. um So I do think just that and just the overall like speed of the world right now, right? Everything's changing all of the time. So I think it's um the good news is surrogacy's been around you know since the 60s and before that. um We're going to be around I just think the important thing is to have boots on the ground. That is my new mantra in legal life when it comes to assisted reproductive technology law.
Speaker: What I have noticed in my jurisdictions, I practice in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri. I obviously have colleagues all over the US s that I work with, is that we do have a lot of ground changes, um meaning changes to statutory authorities in individual states, um some bad like Florida. some good. We've had Michigan recently that came on board. So I think what's really important to understand is I think in today's day and age, we have a very active judiciary. Meaning if at some point in a surrogacy journey, if you're statutorily controlled in your state, it's going to vary when you meet that judge. In Oklahoma, we meet them before the transfer. a lot of places you'll meet them pre-birth, meaning the parentage taking place during the pregnancy. And then we have a handful of states that it's after the fact, right? After the baby's born when we do that. right
Speaker: um Those are the changes that I think are impacting journeys the most. If you have those fundamental changes on the state level that can either affect how the journey takes place when you can get that legal clearance or always in regards to parentage, that's what I think can send people spiraling.
Speaker: I'm wondering why it isn't happening. And a lot of times it's because they do a Google search, right? Sure. yeah Yeah. I was going to say, i feel like there there is just so much. There's there's proposed changes, there's conversations, there's you know just continued... like things happening as far as regulations are concerned, and it can feel really hard knowing what's going on Are you saying that really, i mean, from your perspective, what shifts should people really be paying attention to right now as they're kind of discerning noise versus actual? Yeah.
Speaker: So I think a practice that I have individually is I always try to do what are called introduction calls, which is just what they say they are. yeah So I work with very fabulous agencies, including yours. Thank you. And I always offer that, especially if it's in a jurisdiction that is either statutorily controlled, like Oklahoma, California, places like that. or if there's going to be any um major deviation um or
Speaker: not a deviation, i want them to understand how parentage is gonna work. And then like in my three states, it works different every time, right? Pre-transfer, pre-birth and post-birth. So I want them to understand that. I also think on certain issues like abortion law, abortion care, those are gonna be state specific now as well. Most of these are, honestly, it's just getting the knowledge, right?
Speaker: They work, I match or I don't match. I get matched people in all three of those states. They all work well. Intended parents end up being the parents for their child. And they all have pros and cons depending on which journey, like if you're international versus domestic, things like that. Sure. but I think that um a lot of times people get caught up in that Google search and they're like, well, this isn't going to work there when it can be completely different. Like Oklahoma is completely different from Kansas and Missouri. um And so I think that those expectations are kind of getting skipped over. And if we don't have realistic expectations or anticipations, if we'd want to say that, that sounds more attractive. I think anticipation.
Speaker: um if If we're all online with what we anticipate happening, obviously you can have the one-off here and there. But what I do find, and and God bless them, surrogates and intended parents doing their homework, doing a lot of that legal research, but what they don't understand is how different it can be state to state, especially on the parentage part of that. yeah um I've seen a lot of multi-jurisdictional law firms, bigger law firms that um provide services, you know, kind of throughout the United States. I think it's very important for intended parents and surrogates to have a local voice, um somewhere in that journey, either through a council or having one of the attorneys um either for the surrogate or the intended parents um to be from that region, because you are going have to deal with the delivery hospitals. You are going have to deal with vital records. and some jurisdictions are very picky on how they want that done. But when you're dealing with out-of-state attorneys that aren't that boots on the ground again, they're not
Speaker: to know kind of what's going on in those local jurisdictions at that point in time. I also see a lot more interaction in our fields with mental health, which I think is great.
Speaker: doing a lot more consultations, making sure everybody's anticipations are you know similar and and what those pratfalls and pitfalls you know can be. I've seen judges want that confirmed. In Oklahoma, I'm now required not by the statute, but by the judges to say this person's undergone psych and they're good to go. They want to make sure that everybody's getting those helpful evaluations and everybody's kind of on a even playing field when you go into these types of journeys.
Speaker: Along with that line of, you know, just just Oklahoma now, well, Oklahoma is asking the surrogates now to appear in court for legal clearance. And then, like you said, there's increasing conversations around psychological clearance requirements. Do you feel, are are you seeing the legal process or requirements becoming more formalized or scrutinized?
Speaker: I do feel that way. Um, so Oklahoma is my only, um, jurisdiction that requires, uh, Pre-transfer parentage. I know people like, what are you talking about, Joni Franklin? It's true. So we we actually get parentage orders in place prior to the first transfer. Our legislature felt it was very important that everybody from the get-go knows who this baby is going home with. um They don't allow genetic surrogacy in um Oklahoma. So it's always, um you know, the surrogate will never be related to the child in those circumstances. And I get It it it is good. it um
Speaker: is probably statutorily my favorite one to practice under. However, I think I alluded to you know those cases like mark surrogacy, those cases where we've had escrow compromised. um Because it's a 24-hour news cycle, our judges are human. So they are seeing those stories. And specifically in Oklahoma, um we have some judges that have become quite judicially active. It's not just the statutory requirements, it's additional things that they wanna see done because they don't wanna see those types of bad cases happening um in any other jurisdiction. So the theory and the thought behind it's great. no but None of us want that. We want everybody to be protected. The fallout to that is there's a lot more hoops that we're going through. So in Oklahoma, the statute, solid. do it on the, we make sure everything's notarized so everybody's confirming who they are. And we used to be able to just submit it on the p pleadings.
Speaker: And a week or so later, a judge would sign off on that. Now, three of the four primary judges that hear them in Oklahoma require a confirmatory hearing.
Speaker: And ah my my joke has been the first, you know, i i can't believe I'm saying this. It's my 30th year of practice. I have a big anniversary this year. i know. Amazing.
Speaker: I don't look nearly old enough to have done that, but it's true. um Probably the first 25 years of my practice, you know, was convincing judges that these facts and I was fit into statutory requirements. In this last three or four years, I've been asked to add, not just show what the statute or the law requires, but I want extra stuff. I want extra certifications. I want to lay my eyes on the surrogate. I want to ask her these questions and make sure she is statutorily compliant. that nobody's promising her anything that's not in this contract or that would be inappropriate or against public policy. Now, what that results in is a five minute hearing where she's answering basically all the questions that she swore in front of a notary. um But the judges feel better about it The judges feel like, um, they are able to confirm that there's no type of child trafficking. There's no sort of um vulnerable party that's being taken advantage of. And so again, the spirit behind the changes is great, but the impact is it takes me about three or four weeks longer to get to legal clearance. So again, when we're talking about those anticipations, you're really going to want in statutorily controlled states, you're going to want
Speaker: an attorney telling them that's in that state, you know, how long that that's going to take to get there. right um right And our favorite saying and in our office is we never tell anybody they can't have a baby. They just might not be able to have a transfer the next day. Right. 30 days.
Speaker: But I do find, um you know, we always talk about um being a journey. It's not from point eight to B. There's twists and turns and winding roads. And I find if you can get those anticipations clearly defined, everybody's pretty good with that and And you can make it to that finish line.
Speaker: um But if you are dealing in a smaller jurisdiction, like I would put the Midwest ones in, you need you need those boots on the ground to give those realistic anticipations and expectations. Yeah, definitely. And often multiple times, right? We all hear them at first and then we get halfway through, we have to hear them again and then at the end. Yeah, bed for sure. But I feel like when people are armed with that information, um they they do really well. I mean, like you said, the education and just arming individuals with –
Speaker: that that plan laid out and, you know, what to anticipate. And like you said, just that continued boots on the ground is so important in an already long journey. What would you say, you know, are maybe some of the biggest misconceptions or fears that you are seeing lately? um I'm seeing a lot of fear in my same-sex parents. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I have immense empathy and, um, understanding why they have concerns. um I find I'm addressing a lot of, um especially with my married and tenant parents that are same sex.
Speaker: Am I still going to have these parental rights? Are there things that can undo my marriage um under the current court, current administration? um The good news on that front knocking on wood.
Speaker: We really haven't heard anything coming down um that's on the court's docket, anything to change those marital rights, the right the constitutionally protected right to conceive.
Speaker: um So I often feel I can talk them off the ledge. Obviously, abortion care is um a constant topic. yeah and I have um in my three states, kind of all different there. Oklahoma is very ah for voluntary terminations or terminations not involving the health of the carrier. um Very strict, similar to almost identical to Texas.
Speaker: So we have those meaningful conversations, but I do think intimate parents need to understand that there's always going to be safe abortion care available. Okay. So I want everybody to feel that comfort that just because Roe is gone and we do have ever evolving abortion care um legislation in each of the states, the DOBS, the U.S. Supreme Court decision that did that made it very clear. All you can do is regulate, legislate, and enforce within your state borders. You cannot um inhibit, prohibit, or interfere with anybody's right to freely travel state to state, and that includes to get abortion care. So, yeah. I try to make them feel better about those type of things. And then compensation. is Yeah, it's a big one
Speaker: It's a big one. And I think you and I, Whitney, both have seen a tremendous shift in that. I think even in the last two to three years. Yeah.
Speaker: This episode of Create a Happy Family is brought to you by ArtRisk Financial and Insurance Solutions. Having supported more than 15,000 families on their path to parenthood, ArtRisk helps those in the assisted reproduction community understand their options, minimize risk, and move forward with greater peace of mind. To learn more, visit ArtRiskSolutions.com.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, I i couldn't agree more. i was having a conversation um you know with our matching and education team and I've, gosh, I've been part of, well, my journey, my first journey was in 2018 and I've been a team member with egg donor and surrogate solutions sent it for five years. And I mean, it has significantly evolved from when I first came on the scene Yeah. Just five years ago.
Speaker: excuse yeah And in the past, um I've been doing this area law primarily for 15 years now. So um even in that amount of time, I mean, we've seen and double and so in some situations even more than that in the past 15 years.
Speaker: And I feel like there's been a significant increase just in the last two to three. um i mean, 25%, 30% increase, I would say, over a broad majority of the the packages I'm seeing. Yeah. and Is there concern with, as it's increasing and judges are, you know, becoming...
Speaker: I shouldn't say more involved, but are you know just looking at more of the details than just the you know parentage and things like that. Is there concern with the increase in compensation? um Is there concern with coercion or you know just anything like that?
Speaker: So I do think there is a concern of ah financial vulnerability. Yeah. um With surrogates that and that's the other thing I've seen. and The more the great news is the more mainstream assistive reproductive technology becomes, the more people know about the more people want to be involved.
Speaker: Obviously, that increases the pool. and Whitney, you you know, I know how like tough it was coming out of COVID. We had so few surrogates, the screening had been shut down, things like that. um I do think that ah with the increased demand for it, um I think we're seeing a lot more diversity, I would say, in the surrogates that I see come through now. Mm-hmm. not that this was all encompassing, but you used to see a lot of stay at home moms and teachers and nurses. And now I see people from all walks of life. Right. yeah um
Speaker: But I do think judges do pay attention um when we have um and more financially vulnerable surrogate. We basically include things like nobody's on financial assistance, state subsidies, things like that. um We also, i think judges look a little more with when we have single gestational carriers, making sure there's this, they want to know that there's a support system there enough. But I do think um the feedback I'm getting mainly from courts and judges are, you
Speaker: Kind of concerns about where the money's being pushed around. Right. Tell me more. Yeah. So I've seen a little bit of an uptick in what they kind of call all in packages and those can mean different things. Right. hmm.
Speaker: But some of those give a much bigger base fee, but then they eliminate a lot of the other like scheduled payments. So it they may take out some invasive procedures.
Speaker: They may take out childcare and housekeeping. um and because those, um, benefits are, um you you get them on the schedule and you only get them when you're pregnant, there have been concerns raised that are we going to have childcare if she needs to travel to, you know, the embryo transfer? is she going to have less wages? Are we putting her behind if she's on bed rest?
Speaker: So I think, um, and, and I am of the strong opinion that if if it's fair compensation and people agree to it, I'm okay with it. You know, as long as nobody's, um, you know, being taken advantage of, I think people have the right to negotiate a bigger base fee and lose some other things. But I have had comments or feedback from judges saying, why does this one not have housekeeping? Or why does this one not have childcare?
Speaker: ah And I always have an answer. You know, we have surrogates all the time. We're like, I have so much family. We don't need it. You know, They tend to like those answers a lot better than they negotiated a much higher fee to and be inclusive of those types of things. But again, i think the, um, the inspiration behind it is great. We just want to make sure nobody's being financially taken advantage of, but i also do have to remind courts that, you know, just because somebody, um, may have a lower level of education um, maybe not a high-paying job doesn't mean that they can't be a qualified surrogate, right? and Absolutely.
Speaker: And that we have great surrogates. We have great single mom surrogates. We have, you know all like i said, all walks of life. You know you just have to look at the each individual to do that. But I will say with the draw of higher compensation,
Speaker: and we just have to be mindful of watching out for predatory behaviors, right? And those can be on all sides. That can be surrogate. It can be intended parents. It can be agency driven. So you just have to be really careful with that. And yeah especially, um I'm going to give my pitch. um Please use an agency.
Speaker: Oh, thank you. Yes, please. reputable agency. Yeah. Yes, I will take that edit and times it by what, based so on steroidal language. I find that, um I understand that the costs are immense, but it is an investment. um I do handle a number number of um independent become independent matches, people who find each other um online. um I think that
Speaker: Those can work out lovely, but they also aren't getting the services that agencies are providing. Helping with the site clearances, helping um guide them with like legally what state they need to be talking to people in.
Speaker: um Giving expectations regionally, right? I've seen a big increase in the Midwest, which I love, um because our cost of living isn't as much as it is on the East and the West coast, right?
Speaker: So can be a little more affordable in the Midwest um for a surrogate journey. um But you're gonna need somebody in the Midwest that can navigate what's fair there, right? Because um it they're not going to have that kind of regional, you know, boots on their ground knowledge, same thing with the judiciary and things like that. But- right Yeah, i I do think um a ah good agency is worth its weight in gold. um And I can tell you through the legal process, my hangups, what takes me the longest, I can tell you like when I file it, generally within a week or two of when the court will hear it, I can do all that. But if health insurance is not in place, if site clearances have not been done, if we need
Speaker: ah information from the clinic. All of that, when you're doing it independently, is it's a lot. It's a lot. And a lot of people, when I do those intro calls, I tell people, you know you're going to have to have all this in line. And then they're like, oh, maybe I should go to an agency. Maybe that fee is worth it. And it really, sure it really, really is. it really is. It really is. Those coordinators are, I mean, truly, they are God love them.
Speaker: Experts in the field, like they know they're going to keep things going. They're going to, again, right? Like that education and the anticipatory what's coming up next. It's so worth it. It's so worth it. Right. And they also...
Speaker: I mean, i i from a legal perspective, I can get feels off of people. I know the first time, whether this is going to be 90 email exchange negotiation or two exchange negotiation.
Speaker: um and And I have a lot of patience and empathy. i understand I've done this thousands of times and, you know, it's your first journey working at it, whether you're, I'm representing a surrogate or intimate parents, going to take that time to do that. But what I find, um, agent it's, it's, it's also a, it's a, it's a backstop, right? If anything goes a little wonky and tenant parents can go, i haven't heard Joni saying, she's checking what's going on. You know, you have those behind the scenes kind of, um, neutral parties that can say, Hey, Oh no, don't worry.
Speaker: She was on vacation for two weeks or don't worry, the attorneys are chatting um or just from the get go, making those anticipations equal.
Speaker: Right. Right. can And you're right about a reputable agency, too. Right. and And I work with a lot of them, but, you know, when you get um newer ones or smaller ones or less experienced ones, sometimes those really big match categories or anticipations, expectations aren't necessarily outlined. And then when they come up in legal, it's It's a little dicey. I'll just say that. sure.
Speaker: For sure. Yeah. Despite all of these you know just evolving conversations and legislatures and you know just things like that, what do you feel like is stronger or maybe more established in art law today than people may realize? Right.
Speaker: Right. i I think the biggest thing am noticing is more of a cohesiveness throughout the industry, especially on the legal side.
Speaker: Right. um We have kind of gone out of our way. We understand we're not all on an island. For instance, we're all helping raise money for Florida to challenge that law because we understand that these individual state impacts can have massive impacts on the rest of of the country, especially as we go through the next election cycles and things like that. So I think we've become a lot better about sharing information.
Speaker: I have seen a tremendous amount of outreach when we have had these tragedies, um like the SRO connections, the seam, the breaches. We've had people, offer agencies taking those over. We've had lawyers doing significantly discounted work um to help these people get out. And I don't know that we had that. I'm sure we had some of it.
Speaker: Um, five or 10 years ago, um i think COVID just kind of drove us all together a little bit. And I, I appreciate that. I appreciate the information I get at, at the conferences, who to reach out to things like that.
Speaker: And I think, um, through, you know, organizations like seeds where we kind of meld everybody together, right. yeah lawyers, agencies, um and charitable groups like Resolve, all of that comes together just to do a little more self-policing, little more self-regulation, um which I think is great because when you're talking about practicing in all 50 states, we're never going to get a uniform anything, right? Because states are going to do different things. And so if we can come together as an industry and say, we're going to have universal standards, we're going to make sure people are protected. We're going to police ourselves in all aspects you know of these journeys. I think that is a big push that I have seen a dramatic change in the last two to three years. And I like it I love that. i love that. i like that.
Speaker: Where do you think intended parents and surrogates can still continue to just feel so grounded as they navigate the legal part of their journey?
Speaker: Yeah. I think the important, a couple important things that I always tell people is in legal negotiations, we do have a common purpose, which is legal clearance, right?
Speaker: Right. So i i think that in order to feel grounded, i i always tell people during legal negotiations that the goal is collaborative. It's to get to legal clearance. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: that doesn't mean we are reinventing the wheel. we aren't, you know, starting at scratch on things that we're already okay with. Okay. Obviously, if there's something against public policy, if I think somebody is being taken advantage of, I will always advocate for my client.
Speaker: But I think people can get in the weeds a little bit. um I always remind people that a big part of the surrogacy journey is a leap of faith, right?
Speaker: You have to have a leap of faith. She's going to be carrying your baby. You're not going to be there. She's going to take care of that baby just as she took of her own that she had. Um, but you're going to have to have a trust level in her that she's going to do that.
Speaker: So sometimes we go a little nuts with lifestyle restrictions. I have a little bit of a conversation. Um, sometimes those are beautifully handled, right?
Speaker: i have a lot of religious considerations that become part of, of contracts and, And I've seen those just masterfully navigated by the matching process, right?
Speaker: They know if, if, if we're going to match with a, a kosher Jewish family, like they're going to have a certain expectations or they won't and know that that's just going to happen when the baby is born and and comes into their household. Um,
Speaker: I've seen ah a lot of misinformation on surrogate chat boards and Nintendo parent chat boards and groups where things are put on there. Like everybody gets a hundred thousand dollars for a base fee.
Speaker: And you're like, no, that's not accurate. Um, the the baby will automatically be on the surrogate's health insurance. No, not accurate.
Speaker: I mean, there's some bit pretty big differences out there. Can there be an exception to the general rule? You know, i always. A lawyer's never going to give you 100% on anything. We always have a little bit of wiggle room that we'll talk about. But I do think the more People try to figure it out on their own, which I don't think is a bad thing. They just need to understand. um I always give it Wikipedia, right? Anybody can add to Wikipedia. Doesn't mean they ask the right stuff. So where as you're sharing a lot of information, that's good.
Speaker: Just realize, you know, AI isn't perfect. Things aren't perfect. Those you need to, I guess, trust but verify. And you really can have to do that.
Speaker: through either agency consultation or legal consultation. Those are really the only two ways that you're going to kind of get those industry standards and things like that.
Speaker: um And just understanding, um i always tell people, you know, it's it's harder to swim up river. So if you've made agreements and floated down and then we changed, So just be just be conscious of the choices that in the agreements that you're making. Ask the questions when you're making those agreements. um I think people are scared to ask agency stuff sometimes, which I tell people, ask ask away. this is your This is where you need to do it because if you don't and you get stuck with a benefits package that you're not comfortable with, it's a lot harder and legal to get that reversed or explained. Whereas
Speaker: and match And when you're talking about that, that's the perfect time to talk about it. and then And I've noticed, like, I have a lot of repeat surrogates. I think their second journey, they're a lot more comfortable doing that. I think the first timers get a little shy um and aren't sure what they can ask and what they can't.
Speaker: And I said, there's nothing you can't ask. You might not get the answer you want, but you can always ask the question. Always ask. Always ask. It is way better to ask.
Speaker: And even if you don't know what to ask, then just say, what have I not asked? Right. And get information that way. Or what do you normally ask that I haven't asked? Yes.
Speaker: Yes. I had a poor lady that thought, because we have dietary restrictions, right? Because we want to protect baby, like no unpasteurized cheese products, things like that. And um this poor lady, all she wanted was queso. She's like, I don't think I can go through a pregnancy without queso. and And I said, i can just put unpasteurized in front of that.
Speaker: So if it's shelf stable, you're good. now If it's not, don't, but you can you can have queso. And she's like, oh, I just didn't think. you know there's ah you know That's the one thing. um Lawyers and agencies, we've worked with so many different people and there's ways to kind of mold the language to everybody's um you know belief systems and tolerance levels. yeah But I don't know that if you don't communicate it or ask it and agencies don't either. So like I just always tell people, ask away. I mean, it's better to ask up front than to try to change it you know later. So
Speaker: one hundred percent one hundred percent If someone is listening right now and just feeling overwhelmed by all the uncertainty, whether it's a headline that they've seen or reproductive laws that are up for grabs at this point, or you know just any sort of uncertainty, what would you want them to know?
Speaker: yeah I want them to know that Circe is alive and well. There is going to have to be some adjustments made. um Hopefully some of those will be temporary, like in the Florida case. um But I think maybe shut down the feed a little bit and go to a direct source for the information versus things online. You're going to get the worst case scenarios online.
Speaker: It's just what makes them newsworthy, right? um What makes a good Netflix limited series, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. i often give legal advice. Don't watch anything on any streaming service that says surrogate or fertility. That is great advice. Just don't.
Speaker: Just don't. You can ask me all the questions, but none of that's going to be helpful to you. um I do think it becomes overwhelming. And I think people don't understand that probably 98% of the time, everything goes the way it's supposed to go Everybody goes home with their baby. Surrogates are very fulfilled in their gift to do this. And people are overall really genuinely happy with the compensation that they're getting, the benefits that they're getting.
Speaker: um And to just try to hold to that warm, fuzzy feeling. There's a reason you have a warm, fuzzy feeling when you get matched. Because most of the time, that is your person that the universe has given you. through many steps and many curated calculations. But, um I mean, I've, I'd like to say this, and i've I've had over a thousand babies, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And that happens on the the monthly, the weekly, the daily. It does work. So as long as you take the necessary precautions, using a reputable agency, using ah boots on the ground attorney, um asking all of your questions that you want answers. So those anticipations are what they are. They're anticipated. They're not surprises or shocks, it does really work well.
Speaker: It really does. And there is always a legal remedy to it. Some are a little more complicated than others. um But if you have those steps, we can do it.
Speaker: We can, we will, and it's going to continue because it is a vital part of family formation in modern society, um not only in America, but throughout the world. There are a lot of very educated doctors helping bring this life into the world and give these options to people for family formation that we didn't have. Those aren't going away.
Speaker: can't promise you no hurdles. I can't promise you um no hiccups, but i can promise you surrogacy is here to stay. and we're going to have safe and available surrogacy um throughout my lifetime. i really, i really do love and appreciate just again, how firm you are that.
Speaker: that this is here to stay. And those headlines can be scary. And those chat boards can feel so overwhelming and wild. And it is so wonderful to, again, have a trusted industry professional be able to say, yes, you're right. There's ups, there's downs, there's, we're not going to deny that, you know, those headlines are there, but that's not the majority.
Speaker: And there's always a way. There's always a way. There's always a way. And um and that way continues to evolve, right? Absolutely.
Speaker: The law evolves. It's a it's a constant, um you know, that's what keeps it interesting, I guess. That's one way to put it. Absolutely. No, you're so right. You're so right. Well, Joni, again, thank you so much for just your voice, your expertise, all of the ways that you just continue to be such an influence in the industry and everything that you do as you help intended parents and surrogates. I have one last question for you. It's my fun one.
Speaker: As you know, me and coffee. Just two peas in a pod over here. and so I always love to ask what has filled your cup today, literally or figuratively, what has been the thing to fill your cup?
Speaker: So i am a recovering ah diet soda an addict, right? Oh, So i've I've been off the juice, off the Diet Coke for six years now. kind Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, it was bad. yeah And I was like, why am I not sleeping at night? why am i Oh, well you're drinking Diet Cokes at seven o'clock at night. So um yes. So in the morning, I'm not a coffee drinker. i never have been.
Speaker: so caffeinated water, caffeinated sparkling water. fills my cup in the morning and then iced tea or bubbly's fizzy waters for the rest of the day.
Speaker: But from a professional standpoint, what fills my cup is baby pictures. Yes. I always joke. i'm I'm really not joking though. I always tell my clients that baby pictures are part of my legal fees. And so i think I showed you last time.
Speaker: there's oh you're bored. There's my map and then my baby pictures. ah and yeah Every office I have has a bulletin board. Like, it's so funny when people come in, they're like, um you look like an OBGYN office in here. And I was like, yeah, I do.
Speaker: and so but it's the best. Oh, it is. Because you can you can be handling a mess, like with the courts or, you know, people...
Speaker: not getting along and you're figuring that out and you get a baby picture, it all goes It all goes back to center. And you're like, okay, I can do this.
Speaker: can do this. 100%. 100%. It's that why. It's that why. It is. as It is. It is. Oh, Joni. Well, again, thank you so much. Like I said, just for your expertise, for guiding us through some of these topics and um and just for all of the ways that you help shared clients and just everybody in this industry. We're so, so grateful for you.
Speaker: Yes. You know, I'm always team Whitney. I even sent you a t-shirt with it. You did. It's my favorite. I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh. can you know I'm team Jenny and Sarah. And if we can get through that one, there's nothing can't get through. We can't get through anything. Right? We can get through and that's Take that away, folks. That's that's Bible. it We can do anything. That is Bible.
Speaker: That is Bible. Oh my gosh.
