Transcript
The SnowJobs Podcast: here we go snow jobs nation we are back again bringing you episode 193 of the snow jobs podcast main show powered by top gun backblades the best Show in snow. As always, I'm Steve.
The SnowJobs Podcast: You nose with me.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Voice is still fucked up, but better than it was. What's up, Jay?
RICK JAMES: Steve -O, hope you're feeling better, buddy. You didn't sound so good today.
The SnowJobs Podcast: I am not. I am not feeling better at all. I'm feeling better currently at the moment.
RICK JAMES: Yeah.
The SnowJobs Podcast: They gave me some good stuff at the... ah at the uh the uh whatever that the hell I was, the ER there. But, yeah, I was up to 103 fever, man. I can't kick this. Whatever the hell it is, it's got me. but Negative flu, negative COVID, nobody knows.
RICK JAMES: Hmm.
The SnowJobs Podcast: so It's... a It's kicking my ass, but... We're fucking here. We're going to get this done anyway.
RICK JAMES: I'm guessing it's... The retirement, you're...
The SnowJobs Podcast: It is definitely the retirement. It doesn't agree with me.
RICK JAMES: Shower withdrawals.
The SnowJobs Podcast: That's it.
RICK JAMES: Shower withdrawals.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Group shower with trolls.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Oh.
RICK JAMES: It's hitting you.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Uh -oh.
RICK JAMES: You get it.
The SnowJobs Podcast: I've...
RICK JAMES: See ya.
The SnowJobs Podcast: I think my voice is a little bit better than it was the other day, but it's still not back fully. But the the rest of it is just on me. mess man. the fever and the The ah body aches.
The SnowJobs Podcast: it's crazy right now but They gave me some good stuff and I'm able to get through this tonight. So we're going to. We're going to bang it out, see how far we get. So how's everything?
RICK JAMES: Sounds good.
The SnowJobs Podcast: with you
RICK JAMES: Doing good. Doing good. just another We compare this.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yeah. Are you done spraying?
RICK JAMES: Yep. I think so. Yeah, I'm spread.
The SnowJobs Podcast: i Done harvesting.
RICK JAMES: No, there's... They're... Done with beans. They're on corn now, so.
The SnowJobs Podcast: alright So no more beans.
RICK JAMES: I'll help out. maybe a little bit. No more beans. So just some corn.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Cool.
RICK JAMES: Corn on the cob.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Very cool. well Well, like we said last week, we started off doing preseason Q and &As, answering people's questions, and we're going to continue doing that today. and today to help us do that the pre -season questions the topics We have an all -star studded cast back with us. We got Pat Salmon. We got Matty Young. We got Todd Dickerson. We got Mike Sanalicito. They're all in the house to help us answer these questions.
The SnowJobs Podcast: give their takes on them. and hopefully get some great answers for you guys out there. So that's what we got going on today. But before that, you know what we got to do. Got to hear from Team Top Gun. We'll be right back and do a quick, quick over review.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Do you know what I'm saying, Matty Muscles?
The SnowJobs Podcast: Did I not say? I must not have. Matty Muscles is also here. Matt Young is also here with us tonight. So. All right, we're back. So quick week interview, guys. ah Let's see. We got equipped next week. That is the big week. Hopefully I am well enough to make that.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Hopefully all this shit goes away by then. i and We got, what else we got, Jay? Not much, right?
RICK JAMES: Uh, One was the other.
The SnowJobs Podcast: that's pretty much it
RICK JAMES: When was the other event that I...
The SnowJobs Podcast: What?
RICK JAMES: Text you last week.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Northwest Yeah, the north the northwest snow show there Don't have that queued up. Shit.
RICK JAMES: Yeah.
The SnowJobs Podcast: My bad.
RICK JAMES: Sorry about that. yeah
The SnowJobs Podcast: That's all right.
RICK JAMES: Yeah, yeah
The SnowJobs Podcast: Northwest. Let's see. I got it, actually. The... Inland Northwest Snow and Ice Field Day, all right? It's Thursday, November 5th. 10 AM m to 2 PM at the Broadway landscape supply.
The SnowJobs Podcast: 7121 East Cataldo Avenue. Spokane Valley, Washington all right free for contractors so if you're out in spokane Head on over there and check that out.
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right. ah webinars We did say webinars are going to be starting back up again. We'll probably do that. in November. to get them kicked off again Head on over to snowjobsnationstore .com. Get all your snow job swag.
The SnowJobs Podcast: and uh keep hitting five star reviews all right like and subscribe on apple and spotify for us okay guys Anything else, Jane? Can I do anything?
RICK JAMES: Don't think so. I think it's good. I think we're ready to rock here
The SnowJobs Podcast: Good. Quick week of review is over. all right
RICK JAMES: ah
The SnowJobs Podcast: So let's hear from our partners. We'll be right back. We'll get into it with the boys.
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right, we are back. So let's bring in the boys, Patty Sam and Matty Muscles, Todd Dickerson. and mikey senosito guys what's up
Matty Muscles : What's up boys?
Mike : what's up
The SnowJobs Podcast: How we doing?
Mike : Hey, boys.
Patty Salmon: Have a good one tonight.
RICK JAMES: Doing good. Doing real good.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Hopefully everybody's doing better than I am. All you guys just sound better.
RICK JAMES: I think so.
The SnowJobs Podcast: It's awesome. all right well let's get right into this then we'll go around the room so we'll start with pat Are snow contractors charging enough?
Patty Salmon: I don't think so
RICK JAMES: Nope.
RICK JAMES: Next question.
Patty Salmon: i get
The SnowJobs Podcast: okay Are you going to elaborate on that or that's it?
Patty Salmon: but
.Todd Dickerson: but
Mike : ah
.Todd Dickerson: ah
.Todd Dickerson: It's the shortest shortest podcast in history.
Patty Salmon: I think so. Yeah.
The SnowJobs Podcast: That's it. Thanks for coming.
.Todd Dickerson: Yeah.
RICK JAMES: Yeah.
.Todd Dickerson: ah
RICK JAMES: True story.
The SnowJobs Podcast: but
.Todd Dickerson: We'll be at 200 in no time.
RICK JAMES: True story. Tuesday.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Amen.
Patty Salmon: I don't...
RICK JAMES: Tuesday.
Patty Salmon: I don't think so. I think that the guys who are doing it right want to be charging more. And I think that the rest of the industry has brought the numbers down. so far that a lot of times you can't get what you might want to for certain certain sites.
The SnowJobs Podcast: true Matt what about you? Are snow contractors charging enough?
Matty Muscles : Absolutely not. um I mean... Anybody listening who's been listening for long enough has heard Jeremy say this how many times? amongst other people. This is an emergency service.
Matty Muscles : and should be compensated accordingly. The answer is Unequivocally, no.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Amen. Todd?
.Todd Dickerson: I mean... The theme stays the same here. I think... you know we were all kind of hoping for a market reset with Fern and all that last winter. And in my opinion, all these guys are seeing.
.Todd Dickerson: you know a little bit of success and are going out and buying you know. new plow trucks and new this and gonna jump in the game late and have no idea how it really works. So they're just keeping us down.
.Todd Dickerson: Nope.
The SnowJobs Podcast: My...
Mike : Yeah, I'll go all that and say no I mean we still haven't caught up to what COVID. did to the industry with inflation all of our materials our products and What it's done to our labor rates, you know it's great that we have to pay people more but the paying these guys more it's still inflation offset their paycheck substantially so it doesn't even matter at that point for them like it None of us to my knowledge have been able to catch up and I don't think
Mike : where we're going to it. Like Todd, I was hoping there'd be a market correction after last winter, but... what i've seen lately for a trend is everybody just won. Deals. on these fucking contracts. Like, ah did do you not just have the same 80 inches? that we did.
Mike : Like, come on, let's...
The SnowJobs Podcast: yep
Mike : this is snow removal here it's it's not cheap it's aggressive It's an emergency service. that you Got to understand, you got to be willing to pay for this. You can't cheap out on it.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yup. 100%. What about you, Jack?
RICK JAMES: Same thing everybody's saying. it's it's We're definitely not kidding. Paid what we owe. what we deserve, you know, just from our equipment costs and fuel. and insurance and all of them. all the standard things that we have to do.
RICK JAMES: Definitely not even close to what. what the what we should be getting in the market. I mean, all the markets are different. and But yet. I think in every fall, we just said that we covered pretty much majority of the markets around the country right here. and Nobody's getting paid. about and I don't think we're being greedy. Not only are we being greedy, we're just...
RICK JAMES: Being honest, we're not getting paid what we should be for what we're putting into it and what's expected of us. It's just a... Cold hard facts.
The SnowJobs Podcast: I don't think anybody can afford to be greedy. Can't even think about being greedy. Because you can't. You can't make what you need to make. Like, we had a good one today.
RICK JAMES: Hmm?
The SnowJobs Podcast: uh we Five years ago. We bid a property. um And we got it. and we got Bid prices back today for the new contract.
The SnowJobs Podcast: And. the The guy that was. closest to us. bid what we bid at five years ago.
The SnowJobs Podcast: His price for this year. was what we've been at five years ago. I'm like, what what are you smoking, dude? How can you possibly be that low?
Matty Muscles : Property managers love it though.
The SnowJobs Podcast: It makes no sense. What's that?
Matty Muscles : Property managers love it though, and they'll eat that up all day long.
The SnowJobs Podcast: No! They actually this property manager is actually pretty good because he said what is wrong with this Like, tell me what. You know, there's gotta be, obviously I know something's wrong with it.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Tell me what's wrong with it. Oh my God. Dude, I don't know if he's and if he's misreading the scope. I don't know if he's misreading the the level of service. But... There's no fucking way that you can do it in 2026 prices.
The SnowJobs Podcast: for that. You know, it was... You know, do what you gotta do. But, uh... Yeah, it's it's pretty pretty interesting. I thought. I thought these guys would be.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Most of the guys in my area have been going higher this year, which is good to see. But there's still, I guess, a couple morons that... Keep dropping their drawers. I don't know I don't get it.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Let's see. All right. What are the biggest mistakes? That's no contractors make.
Patty Salmon: I think that we kind of just covered. covered one of them, that would be pricing
The SnowJobs Podcast: Sure.
RICK JAMES: Uh -huh.
Patty Salmon: Um,
Patty Salmon: the other mistakes or I feel like a lot of times guys take on... Two. Too much. Okay. I'm like, guys. want to grow too fast and they take on more than they can chew and then that uh It drops the quality of service, but then also drops the pricing structure as well.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Maddie.
Matty Muscles : A little piggyback off of Patrick, but I would say... Number one on my list would be under tooling sites. And. overextension so Basically, you know, you don't have the right equipment to get the job done properly big belief of ours is making sure that there's backups either you know in the vicinity or Sitting at the shop waiting to go I realize that takes a lot.
Matty Muscles : to do and it doesn't happen overnight you know you have to build a fleet Um... So being able to do that, I think is important and definitely worth investing in.
Matty Muscles : And then, yeah, overextension. Don't bite off more than you can chew. Nine times out of 10, yeah, you might be able to get away with it, but that one time you can't get away with it. you're going to put a really bad taste in somebody's mouth. And then you're, you know,
Matty Muscles : you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to reputation. That's a risk that I'm not willing to take. I know other guys are but. We just don't operate that way
The SnowJobs Podcast: amen Todd?
.Todd Dickerson: So I'm going to follow up on Maddie with overextension, but I'm taking it a different way. I think a lot of people. And they're probably even listening to these podcasts and like, oh, I need a new case 321. I need and I need this. I need that.
.Todd Dickerson: There's so many different. Um... avenues to get equipment whether it's a rental program for the winter season or you know, ah six month on, six month off, whatever.
.Todd Dickerson: But. Guys don't educate themselves enough on the... purchasing. side of buying that 321. That. They overextend themselves and then they have to take the cheap work. Right.
.Todd Dickerson: they're As we always say, they're just trying to make that that payment and all it does is hurt the industry. so You know, I think that's a huge mistake of. These guys not committing to the industry.
.Todd Dickerson: and educating themselves on the different avenues that are out there you can... Rent. you know six month on, 10 month on, whatever. to keep your...
.Todd Dickerson: your numbers right.
The SnowJobs Podcast: I'm Mikey.
Mike : Yeah, for me the big two is Definitely. under equipping sites You know? you can go into these places with enough history and data but There's so many variables that.
Mike : get missed in production rates now, whether it's walkways, parking lots, roadways. you know under tooling sites is a really great way to deliver poor quality service and poor response time.
Mike : especially if you're trying to make an impact on a new client that you've been chasing for a while this there's nothing worse than falling on your face doing that And then. The next one. which is a thing that I see quite often.
Mike : growing your business faster than you grow. your team. If you're... spending more dollar for dollar. on growing company sales wise, bringing in new clients. more than you are training your people.
Mike : you know helping them bring more people like them in incentivizing them to stay, incentivizing them to bring more people in. that follow your culture, your values and your quality of work. You know it.
Mike : it'll get away from you extremely fast.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Amen. Jake?
RICK JAMES: I would say. I'm going to echo everything everybody said because that's pretty much the base of it all. Guys being unprepared to, I mean. Guys, you know, they get a contract and then they...
RICK JAMES: Don't worry about it until it snows in the forecast. Everybody's scrambling because once they get the – I'm not saying everybody. We we know that there's some contractors. ah We'll get contracts and they'll just forget about it.
RICK JAMES: you know snow's a second thought to them that's kind of the problem with our industry You guys are. you know, having... snow just kind of be a time filler or something to make a little extra money hopefully in the end. So it's. it's Those things that are hurting the industry and what contractors are not being prepared.
RICK JAMES: is the Probably one of the biggest things are overextending yourself as Patty said and stuff like that, you know the guys Everybody wants all the work, but can you handle all the work?
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yep.
RICK JAMES: you know. Oh.
Mike : Yep.
RICK JAMES: I've been always guilty of that. I always say get all the work. i mean Figure out how to get it done burned myself yet but Who knows if that's going to happen?
RICK JAMES: everybody wants all the work. So you want to get it, but you got to be prepared for. the worst conditions as maddie said too about having backups and stuff like that so That's my opinion. What about you? What are your thoughts?
The SnowJobs Podcast: of Everything that everybody said. plus um I think one of the biggest mistakes that... snow guys make is they let There. they let the terms of their level of service and their scope of work be dictated to them by the customer or by the property manager.
The SnowJobs Podcast: You're the professional. You're the one that's supposed to know the best level of service and way to service it. um I think they are too easily manipulated. in into doing things that are not in the best interest of the site and of the customer.
The SnowJobs Podcast: um And we don't do that That's the one that I'll... You've got to find the right customer. Don't just say yes to every customer that comes. the You want the right customers, not necessarily every single one.
The SnowJobs Podcast: And then I think. I think that's one a huge mistake. That's no contractors make. is they allow the terms to be dictated to them by people that have no fucking clue.
RICK JAMES: that's yeah that's that's Yeah, you're 100 % right on that. we have discussed many times about how we Let people negotiate with us. on our terms and it's like that's not you don't negotiate
The SnowJobs Podcast: And they don't even know what they're doing. They don't even know what they're doing with snow.
RICK JAMES: Yeah. let's go
The SnowJobs Podcast: Oh, okay.
RICK JAMES: Yeah.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yeah, yeah. that The dentist, he probably knows what he's doing pretty good with snow.
RICK JAMES: Yeah. Yeah.
.Todd Dickerson: ah
RICK JAMES: Yeah.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Oh shit.
RICK JAMES: yeah
.Todd Dickerson: So you know the other thing that... comes to mind all the time.
Patty Salmon: see
.Todd Dickerson: we' We've all said this and we've all heard this, right? No snow money or no money like snow money.
The SnowJobs Podcast: mm -hmm
.Todd Dickerson: But yet we're the first ones to cut our prices and do all this. like That kind of goes back to question one, but... Yeah, you're right. There's no so no money like snow money, but...
.Todd Dickerson: why Why cut your number to to get more work that makes no sense?
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yep.
Mike : mm -hmm
RICK JAMES: No.
The SnowJobs Podcast: is um Is growing too fast more dangerous than not growing at all? Pat.
Patty Salmon: Yeah, I mean, I think we we just... touched on that you grow too vast you overextend don't don't equip your sites enough then you can run into Yeah.
Patty Salmon: labor shortages and problems and that just that puts a It ruins your reputation, exactly as Maddie said. And then nobody's going to... nobody's going to want anything anything to do with you. so Uhm?
Patty Salmon: grow up. I'm generally on the side. we Trying to just grow a little bit slower if it means that you can keep up with the level of service and do what you say you're going to do.
The SnowJobs Podcast: man How about you, Matt?
Matty Muscles : I definitely think that growing too fast can be an issue. um If you were to do like a little bit more of a deep dive into how people quantify growth.
Matty Muscles : If you want to talk about it just from like, well, from. From one year to another, we added X amount of sites. Let's say you're. you're struggling to add sites or you're not prepared to add sites. You can measure growth internally.
Matty Muscles : without adding on more work. You can, you know... create efficiencies, work on processes. Things like that. Things like that to me still quantify as growth, even though it might not be.
Matty Muscles : growth in a revenue standpoint. And it's going to help you position yourself better. for that future of adding you know more revenue, more sites, more equipment, et cetera, et cetera.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Amen. Todd.
.Todd Dickerson: So I'm going to say yes, but I also. in my opinion, as the owner of the company and the what i consider the lead sales guy of the company You've got to stress your company at times. Right. Like.
.Todd Dickerson: You gotta... You got to take a little step and stress your your people. Like when I... during Fern. We had every almost every single station going. And.
.Todd Dickerson: We made it through without. you know without crashing and burning. And. you know, it's allowed me to look at this year and say, okay.
.Todd Dickerson: I think I could. Take on this And. You know, you just got to be smart about it. And the problem is. you know, If your numbers were right.
.Todd Dickerson: and your margins are right. then you know the only next healthy thing that you can do in my opinion is stress your company ah a little bit to see you know.
.Todd Dickerson: How much more can I take next year? And that might be as simple as an emergency call towards the end of the year when somebody fails. you know Take it on and see if... See if it cracks you.
.Todd Dickerson: Um... you know. you You can't stay the same all the time. And I agree with Matt. you know, processes and all those things are are certainly a great way to grow margin.
.Todd Dickerson: But. I'm a firm believer in you got to stress your company every now and then and see what your true capabilities are because. We all get stagnant. And even if we're growing, we get stagnant because you might take two properties.
.Todd Dickerson: When really? You could take three or four, or maybe even five. if they're the right properties and the right. scenario. So. I kind of lean both ways on that, in my opinion.
The SnowJobs Podcast: mm -hmm Maggie.
Mike : Yes. Yeah, you definitely can. i've lived it many a times but todd you you just gave me something to think about honestly like It is true. You do need to stretch yourself a little bit too See what your capabilities are sometimes where your weak points are so you know where to start. working on things and improving things for the next year or for that year if it's the beginning of the season.
Mike : It's nice coming from an owner's perspective for sure to hear that. um It would be. And I'm sure you do this. because you care about your team a lot. when you align that with your operations team. And I know you being the main sales guy, but if you have a sales team.
Mike : like hey guys i want to try and i want to reach a little bit higher this year just a little bit You know, we're going to take one or two extra outside of our Our goal like whatever it is your sales goal for the year We're going to take on these two.
Mike : I think we can do it. I think we get a skilled team that can absolutely hammer down if we get killed this winter. Like, but's let's see what happens. You know, if the whole team is aligned. then they feel like they're a part of it.
Mike : but when you just do it slap the contract down and say, figure it out. that's that's when you lose people that's when they just feel like a number that's when they feel like they're just a tool in your toolbox
The SnowJobs Podcast: Okay. Jay?
RICK JAMES: i would I would... Say that. You can. You can. grow too fast. And it depends on the company, honestly. you know you know It depends on what you can bring to the table.
RICK JAMES: what you can do. Obviously that's kind of the question, but. Yeah. We have this issue here where I think we... We grew pretty fast. a glacier um just because I wouldn't say no to anything and I knew I could figure it out.
RICK JAMES: And I also knew I had. A lot of guys that wanted in around me. to you know, like subcontractors. So I knew. I got in a bind. Or I can always add more. If we couldn't do it, I could always add more guys. So.
RICK JAMES: I think it's a... you can. play that game too if you if Depends on the company obviously. but I was never afraid of taking more on just because I figured I'm just one of those guys. as I'll just figure it out And we'll...
RICK JAMES: we'll make it work one way or another, or I'm not, I'm not going home until we figure it out, I guess, but that's not always the right way. Believe me, that but. I guess I haven't. I've been burned by it myself yet. But...
RICK JAMES: Once again. I'm not a normal person. I'm kind of an idiot. So.
Patty Salmon: so
RICK JAMES: o
The SnowJobs Podcast: Um... Is growing too fast more dangerous than not growing at all? Absolutely. Um... And for the smaller guys. If you...
The SnowJobs Podcast: i mean if you if There's nothing wrong with staying the same. size site -wise that you were the year before. As long as you're getting the right money for all of those sites.
The SnowJobs Podcast: And it doesn't mean you necessarily haven't grown. You're going to grow your efficiencies. like matt was saying you're gonna grow ah on an internal level. you're going Everything you do on those sites that you've had from year one to year two. even if you didn't add any new ones. you're going to be doing it better.
The SnowJobs Podcast: So you're going to grow your efficiencies. You're going to grow your team. um You did it. You know growth is is a tricky word Because there's... there's You can have growth in a lot of places that you wouldn't normally consider it growth.
The SnowJobs Podcast: just because you didn't take on new sites. does not necessarily mean you did not grow. as a company
Patty Salmon: one
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right. So, I mean, and if if those sites didn't present themselves, that they weren't the right money or they weren't the right fit for your company, I think that's the biggest. For smaller snow contractors, I think that is probably one of the biggest... problems.
The SnowJobs Podcast: is that guys feel pressured into taking sites that are not right for them. either via the money Or what? kind type of sites they are. you know Maybe they're not set up. And. to be, you know, beneficial to a certain company. But guys feel pressured to take them.
The SnowJobs Podcast: they take them and it's a bad experience all around. So, i you know, I think that just because you're not actually growing site wise. doesn't mean your company is still not growing so make sure if you're going to grow that you're taking the right sites for you for the right reasons.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Let's see. Yeah. What is one mistake that cost you guys serious money? Pat?
Patty Salmon: stop
Patty Salmon: He's one of them. it's hit maddie and Let me think on that one for a minute.
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right, Matt.
Matty Muscles : Pass.
The SnowJobs Podcast: but Todd?
Mike : yeah
.Todd Dickerson: I can answer this one real quick. so
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right, perfect.
.Todd Dickerson: I don't remember what year it was um But. I decided. we were going to buy five melters at a clip. I wanted to, actually it was COVID year, so what was that, 2020?
.Todd Dickerson: Um,
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yep.
.Todd Dickerson: I wanted to buy all Tree Can's inventory out immediately and kind of... pin everybody where they couldn't get any melters. well We ended up getting very Very little snow that year. And.
.Todd Dickerson: you know That was about a $3 million dollar gamble. And. look it doesn't matter what the dollars are i just mentioned that because it was a huge commitment Right. I mean, $3 million dollars is $3 million. dollars I don't care how you slice it.
.Todd Dickerson: And. you know It eventually ended up working out because I... That made me. hustle more to grow and get more responsibilities are are melting.
.Todd Dickerson: Uh... spots that needed melters but My point is. I took that gamble. not thinking we weren't going to get any. real snow that year or call out for emergency trip. which we normally had always gotten every year.
.Todd Dickerson: And it just didn't happen because. you know COVID changed the world that year, right? so
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yep.
.Todd Dickerson: You know, some people weren't worried about snow. I mean, the airports. I mean, you could walk in an airport and see four people all day. So... you know. um But at the time.
.Todd Dickerson: It sounded like a great idea to me when all when the world was coming to an end. let's let's get a deal. And I ended up negotiating a great deal with TreeCan. But.
.Todd Dickerson: It's still. Just probably was my biggest. And it's paid off in the long run, but it was it was definitely a blunder at the minute. to to give up that kind of. cash flow at that time, for sure.
The SnowJobs Podcast: for Mike.
Mike : Yeah. I mean, thinking back over my. career. you know when I first started. The easy things. calling guys in too early because you're nervous that you're going to miss your window to get guys in. and doesn't manifest as fast as you thought and you're sitting there for four to six hours with your thumb in your ass that's times that by as many sites as you want, that's definitely a costly mistake.
Mike : Um, keeping bad operators and unsafe drivers and vehicles and causing you damage to your equipment. damage to your client's properties, damages you have to fix know at the end of the year on these sites.
Mike : Yeah. Maybe... If I thought a little bit harder. I've probably Oh God. costs money, like over salting. you know back in the early days when we were getting hammered with snow. I would try and keep that Brian layer going because everybody's exhausted. You want to try and give guys breaks and hold it off as long as you can because it's not 9 a .m. yet and the sun's not out. So you just.
Mike : you try and pepper it to death but really you're just making more of a mess and it's not doing half the job you want it to. Yeah. Just stuff that you come across as you come up in the industry that
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yep.
Mike : You'll see you on your P and &L shooting. you can fix it on the next run.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Hmm? Pat, you come up with anything yet?
Patty Salmon: Nothing major. I guess it kind of touches on what Mike says. kind of You know, he said calling people in early, which is what made me think of it. Last year, we were understaffed. And.
Patty Salmon: We pulled... ah A key... supervisor off of the supervision role to try and fill an operator position. ah And that ended up being. ah it It was necessary, but that ended up being a big mistake because we had some...
Patty Salmon: We lost some serious efficiencies last year with a lot of callbacks and and not having the the sidewalk crews realistically supervised. So I suppose that that's one thing in recent that has come up that probably cost us a lot of money with not callbacks from customers, but just having to go revisit sites, missed missed doors, missed entryways.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Okay. Matty, you come up with anything?
Matty Muscles : Yeah, I got... Can't remember how long ago. it was now is probably at least... Five six years ago we decided to walk away from a portfolio that at the time we didn't think was going to be the right fit for us. um And then. We just...
Matty Muscles : we were able to kind of justify it at the time and Now the portfolio is about three or four times the size that it was, you know, back then. And we would have had the entire, you know, the entire thing for ourselves. so Um,
Matty Muscles : Getting... our foot back in the door has been tough. Um... So in hindsight. Maybe I know we just talked about it, but. If we had overextended ourselves or pushed, you know, pushed our comfort zone a little bit like Todd was leaning towards, you know, back then.
Matty Muscles : It would have paid off in dividends now, but. Um... That's kind of what's... hit in my mind right now.
The SnowJobs Podcast: turn four Jag.
RICK JAMES: i I would kind of echo what Matt said. Matt and Pat said about... Some employee issues and stuff like that, were right?
Patty Salmon: james
RICK JAMES: back in the day where, you know, You you got to. smaller crew and I mean, you got ah you got a good -sized crew, but... It didn't snow as much, so we figured I'll just give the hours to just a few guys because.
RICK JAMES: They wanted more money so we could just kind of. Knock it out with just. half a crew instead of the full crew You know. And obviously it takes you. Twice as long. And that doesn't always work out how you want it to work out. You think you got plenty of time and you.
RICK JAMES: It kind of burns it in. but Lesson learned. you know I always... No, I don't really care. or if or for If it's going to be a... We thought we could salt something off. and It didn't pay off. So for now, you know, if we we push every little thing there is now because. We're not going to play those. I'm not playing those games anymore.
RICK JAMES: know We just go full tilt on everything. from salting the pushing the. just because I burned myself a few times on that. where If I just. for the you know.
RICK JAMES: Didn't want to. Thought I was going to save some money. and Didn't really work out that way. so
The SnowJobs Podcast: Amen. Let's see. One mistake that costs serious money. Um...
Mike : That's never happened to you.
The SnowJobs Podcast: There's a... Oh, absolutely it has. There's a trick to... There's a trick to looking at a site. when you're Going to bid it. Um... And... like guys that have done it.
The SnowJobs Podcast: They'll understand that after time, you you get a sense for... how everything is going to drain on a property. where the runoff is going to go. uh how the storm drains are going to behave. Where are the gutters?
The SnowJobs Podcast: emptying too. and And that all comes into. That all comes into play because as you're writing up a... uh a bid on this property. You're bidding on normal stuff, snow and ice.
The SnowJobs Podcast: What if you're not careful and you don't? know how to properly size up a property and look at the pitfalls that could be there. Um... You're not going to take into account that.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Oh, they have these roof trains that come down on the pillars right in front and empty out into the... Fire Lane. of me. of the parking lot. And it's going to be... Ice.
The SnowJobs Podcast: During, you know. Ice all night. and it's going to be water during the day. but it's going to ice again every night, which is going to mean you're you're coming out. to result that every freaking day.
The SnowJobs Podcast: during that freeze thaw cycle So that could cost you a hell of a lot of money. If you don't take those kinds of things into an account. on, um, on a ah you know, on a walkthrough.
The SnowJobs Podcast: So stuff like that. Definitely, that I've missed a couple times where I shouldn't have. but I missed it. And you'll learn. You know, hopefully it doesn't put you out of business. but you know you got to keep your state your level of service where it's supposed to be and you keep salting on your dime and hopefully you come through okay.
The SnowJobs Podcast: and you know your mistake didn't cause you to go under Um, that's definitely the one mistake that could cost you serious money And then not accounting for... snow and ice checks uh for your people to go out to check properties if you don't have like You know, them sight cameras. stuff like that I'm not accounting for those hours in the bid.
The SnowJobs Podcast: that can also cost you serious money. that we've done we've done that before. We made that mistake.
Patty Salmon: those Those roof drains wouldn't fall under unnatural accumulation of snow and ice and that'd be a billable thing for you?
The SnowJobs Podcast: ah probably It probably would have if I had put it in the contract and noticed it ahead of time.
Patty Salmon: okay
The SnowJobs Podcast: But not doing that. It was kind of a gray area. and Good luck after the fact getting them to agree to pay you extra. So yeah, if I had noticed it and called attention to it, I probably could have put it in the contract.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Said, hey, that's not on us. But I... You know, I didn't. I was young. and And I didn't even think that it was going to be a fucking problem. phone.
Patty Salmon: ah How would the rest of you handle that if that's something you missed, though? Would you attempt to approach the customer and and... get that billable. during the season or just eat it and lesson learned.
Matty Muscles : It doesn't hurt to ask. Worst case scenario, they're just going to say no. But. If they have respect for you as a. a partner in service they might meet you halfway at least
Patty Salmon: Yeah.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Very true.
RICK JAMES: Yeah.
The SnowJobs Podcast: oh Let's see. You want to hit some commercials?
RICK JAMES: Sure.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Let's hit some commercials real quick. We'll be right back. We'll keep going.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Let's go.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Too funny. That Soul Flap commercial is living rent -free in my head.
RICK JAMES: ah That's what it's supposed to do.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Holy crap. All right, let's keep going here. um This is a good one. Are smaller snow companies being pushed out by larger...
The SnowJobs Podcast: or private equity backed companies.
The SnowJobs Podcast: pat
.Todd Dickerson: but
RICK JAMES: You're on the wrong side of the screen, Patty.
Patty Salmon: Yeah, I know. That's what I was thinking. I need time to process some of these questions. um I would say the ones that don't. All right. aren't doing things properly. definitely are but I'm
RICK JAMES: you
Patty Salmon: It kind of just falls in the industry in in general, which which is good, right? And slowly start squeezing out these guys who don't know what they're doing. or aren't doing things properly or aren't priced accordingly.
Patty Salmon: I know that doesn't really answer your question. but
The SnowJobs Podcast: It's all right, Matt.
Matty Muscles : I think... They're pushing out. The... contractors that need to be pushed out And by what I mean, And that is. You should know your market and you should know what you're capable of doing and you should know what sites are going to be your your like. quote unquote, you know, honey hole.
Matty Muscles : Um... If you're not equipped or capable of taking on... major sites. Don't bid them. There's places in the market for small commercial sites.
Matty Muscles : All the way up to large commercial sites and even dropping back down into into residentials. I mean We've talked about. all sorts of different you know models Over the years here So do a little bit of research.
Matty Muscles : based off of where you are and what your surroundings are. and put yourself in the right position to be successful. And then as a result, you're not going to be one of those companies regardless of your size.
Matty Muscles : that's going to get pushed around. So there's a lot of other factors. And I would. agree with what pat said like make sure you're priced right like price right for the market and the size sites that you're doing.
Matty Muscles : you will be successful. If you don't do that. You just. You're starting off on on the wrong foot anyways, and you deserve to get pushed out
The SnowJobs Podcast: Todd?
.Todd Dickerson: ah Um... So I... Again, I've said this 100 times on this thing. is ah You know? build Build the relationship to...
.Todd Dickerson: To avoid that. and And what I mean by that is. build with the customer so that Like there's no opportunity for. somebody to come in and cut that.
.Todd Dickerson: Right? Cut it away from you. I mean, believe me we're all going to lose properties and we're all going to get properties but If you have a solid relationship and you've built that it's kind of like when we talk to drake and like Don't just walk around with the customer or make the customer walk walk the property with you and explain what you're going to do so that you're building that relationship. and It should. alleviate
.Todd Dickerson: or at least give you a last look opportunity if they're going someplace else. to... you know. to keep that property or whatever but you know, i that's That's the only way that I think you can avoid that kind of stuff.
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right, Muggie.
Mike : Yes. i don't believe it's completely intentional i think it's just the way the market is if you're small and you're delivering value to your clients if you're doing good work if you are able to get consistent increases on your contract to meet the you know.
Mike : The cost of doing business on your end, even though your cost of doing business is going to be much much lower than these larger firms. then you... realistically, you should be okay.
Mike : I think to Pat's point. it does push out a lot of the chuck in the truck guys that we need to get out of here so that we can get the industry pricing up to at least where it should be.
Mike : but Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily completely intentional. I think it's just... the way the market is kind of shaping up right now
The SnowJobs Podcast: Thank you, Jay.
RICK JAMES: I mean, for me personally. in our area here We are the big dog. But yet I don't think they're. There are. I don't think were anybody's being forced on. Like Matt and everybody said, are there's there's work for everybody.
RICK JAMES: If you find there, you know, you're right. clients that you want to work for. And I mean, there's From like Matt said, residential to a small commercial to a big commercial. There's room in the sandbox for everybody to play.
RICK JAMES: But you just got to learn your numbers and learn how to play it the right way. So you're going to be around to make money. I don't think it's... necessarily the Big dogs or nationals pushing on anybody.
RICK JAMES: you know It's just people not knowing their numbers. how like they get overextended or. Or they try it and they don't like it? or You know, they just.
RICK JAMES: Snow is a whole different ballgame. You have to have something weird in you to want to be in the snow business. We're all pretty stupid. I mean, we... I mean, so we do the... Dumb as shit. we We're like a fart, you know? we we Depend on the weather. for what we're gonna do.
RICK JAMES: We... Buy all of our shit before the season and hopefully it's gonna snow and Hopefully we pay it all off, right? I mean, it's...
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yeah.
RICK JAMES: I mean, it's... it's if Everything's a gamble. We're gamblers, I guess, at heart. I don't even like to gamble, but apparently I do in the snow games.
The SnowJobs Podcast: You are Jean. There you go.
RICK JAMES: ah Yeah.
Patty Salmon: but
The SnowJobs Podcast: You didn't even know it.
RICK JAMES: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, well, Sean loves the game.
RICK JAMES: So I don't know it's it's I'm just talking about my area personally where I don't. There's plenty of room around. I haven't heard anybody being forced out because of. the big guy or whatever you know there's it seems like there's always room for Whoever wants to.
RICK JAMES: putting the effort. So. But I've heard it and you know I've heard other guys say in you know bigger cities and stuff. for There's a lot of big players where... There's not room for them. So. But.
RICK JAMES: Like you guys said, it all depends on your customer relations. You got to build that relationship. and know Good things will happen.
The SnowJobs Podcast: And thank you. A lot depends on on your area. and what the larger companies are are doing. are Are they doing things the right way? Are they pricing their work the right way?
The SnowJobs Podcast: If they are... then that will only help you as a smaller company. if they are not pricing it the right way. or their private equity back, because in my experience, at least around here. When private equity came in here. five years ago now.
The SnowJobs Podcast: four years ago and bought the three companies in the area um They've slashed even their prices. down to like nothing. um They got one truck on a route that was being done by... 12 trucks. And now one truck is doing 12 trucks worth of sites.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Um... So... in that sense. Yes, private equity. bad companies. are probably putting a hurting. on smaller snow companies.
The SnowJobs Podcast: But if you're lucky enough to have larger companies in the area that are doing things the right way and pricing themselves the right way, that can only help you.
Mike : We actually had the opposite.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Shoot.
RICK JAMES: Yep.
Mike : effect when when we linked up with visdera We actually drove the pricing up like with all the companies that are in the New England area that are under the Vistara umbrella, we.
Mike : We looked at everything as a combined unit. And when they saw what we were getting in in our market. And at a consistent rate, what we were getting in that market, they're like, oh. Alright, the market can bear this. Alright, let's get everybody...
Mike : aligned on this. Let's get everybody on board.
The SnowJobs Podcast: There you go.
The SnowJobs Podcast: So it can work. um Are large sites worth the headaches that are involved with them? Bye.
Patty Salmon: Yeah, I think they definitely can be. um I think the biggest thing is is equipping your yourself properly and making sure that your your numbers align with that. We really don't do anything large. We're pretty much more smaller commercial. And then, you know, you guys know we do municipal and state. but So I don't have a whole lot of experience with that but that would kind of be my opinion on that one.
The SnowJobs Podcast: 10 -4. Todd?
.Todd Dickerson: um I mean, I'm going to say yes to that. I...
The SnowJobs Podcast: but that
.Todd Dickerson: I i don't know what else to say to that.
Mike : Hmm.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Shocking!
.Todd Dickerson: You know, but. ah The... The one thing. that and steve you've said this in the past right is when you do sit down and go over the scope right like make sure that those people whether it's a government or an airport or you know a distribution center or whatever the level of services is crystal clear and the scope of work is crystal clear.
Patty Salmon: so
.Todd Dickerson: I mean, Literally. That came up today in a meeting and that came up last Tuesday in a meeting. and both of those airports agreed you are the subject matter expert what do we need And that does not happen a lot.
.Todd Dickerson: and in the...
The SnowJobs Podcast: No.
.Todd Dickerson: some of these big
The SnowJobs Podcast: That's great.
.Todd Dickerson: Big areas, right? So. you know, um And. If they're asking and they're telling you that, they're asking for your straight -up opinion. So don't be shy and give it to them.
.Todd Dickerson: um And. The other thing was. ah
.Todd Dickerson: Sorry, Maddie, I just saw your... ah the other thing was um you know Stay in your niche. right like i
The SnowJobs Podcast: Yep.
.Todd Dickerson: I have not left. The airport market. in 29 years, 28 years. so You know, I've stayed in that and I haven't. you know i haven't gotten into the the data centers or the distribution centers or you know, other stuff. I mean.
.Todd Dickerson: the pentagon was a big reach for us not that it was out of our league or anything but That's not something we normally do. We did it because we're a veteran owned company. And there was some ties there.
.Todd Dickerson: and Honestly. As you guys know, that was probably not the best decision and we've. since walked that deal, but you know um I'm a firm believer in stay in your niche, keep grinding.
.Todd Dickerson: And, you know. You'll get it right eventually. One way or another.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Move on. Matt, are large sites worth the headaches involved?
Matty Muscles : You couldn't just let everybody else finish out and bring me in last?
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right, Mike. Go ahead.
Mike : Yeah. I'll take a million square foot property all day to. 10 or 12 little hundred thousand square foot. properties. i'll Maybe I'm being lazy. I don't know. I like having my entire team under one umbrella. I like seeing the entire thing like a fucking orchestra just go off.
Mike : as it should If I have a few sites down the road that are small. Great. But when you got me. traveling a half hour between sites in a snowstorm. I feel like there's a very vast way to lose.
Mike : the not just the quality on your site but the the efficiencies of having somebody at 30 000 square feet or 30 000 feet above looking at the operation and seeing what we can do to make this more efficient, to get us to that morning time bracket where everything's going to be open and treated.
The SnowJobs Podcast: 10 -4. adjourn
RICK JAMES: Yeah. another I'm not opposed to big sites. I like the big sites because I like the... I like to watch the boys get their shit done like Mikey said. that and It always depends on the site that you're on, what kind of headache it's going to be. Is it a big retail? so they're or a distribution center you know you always got your different Different obstacles in each place that you have to deal with. but Honestly, i I do like the.
RICK JAMES: Large sites. I mean, small sites are great too. If you price them right, you can do just as many small sites and make way more money than you can at a big site. so is there's Pros and cons for each one. but Large size do not scare me. hi I enjoy them. i was through I like to...
RICK JAMES: I like the big equipment on the big lots. and all the tip touching and all that fun stuff that we do so it's Make some good TV.
.Todd Dickerson: Is that how Steve got sick?
The SnowJobs Podcast: All right. Yes.
RICK JAMES: wow
Patty Salmon: yeah
The SnowJobs Podcast: Steve's fever is coming.
RICK JAMES: lack of That's a lack of.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Steve's fever is coming back with a vengeance, so we've got to wrap this pretty quick. look Go ahead, Matt.
Matty Muscles : Yeah, I Completely agree with what Mike and and Jeremy just said. like The large sites are worth the headache. As long as... You got enough Advil to go around, but...
Matty Muscles : when it comes to efficiencies like Mike was talking about. When it comes to, you know, problems if you've got 10, 15, 20, 40, 60 small sites. Yeah, there's going to be a little.
Matty Muscles : nitpicky issues that is going to be you know pertain to that one site so now it's like you're you're You're managing so many little things on. spread out area whereas Big sites are going to have their issues too, but.
Matty Muscles : you can consolidate that on one property. So it actually lessens the burden. Or... essentially lessens the headache. Um... But from where we started, like we, you know.
Matty Muscles : we We made a killing off small sites and and I actually
Matty Muscles : painfully, we we dumped even a bunch more this year. that were great money makers but When the opportunities for bigger sites come along and you know that you can handle it, you know your team is sound, you know your efficiencies are in line and your processes are good.
Matty Muscles : It makes taking on. the larger quote unquote headache sites. a hell of a lot easier
The SnowJobs Podcast: Sure.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Cool. all right I think we nailed it, boys.
RICK JAMES: Sounds good.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Nicely done.
RICK JAMES: I hope you feel better
The SnowJobs Podcast: It's coming back with a vengeance. I'm going to wrap this. I apologize to everybody for my voice and for being sick the last couple weeks. but This is not our normal episode, but... not in in the beginning at least but We still got it done for you no matter what. That's all that matters.
The SnowJobs Podcast: But... Yeah, we'll wrap it there then. Everybody good?
Patty Salmon: Yes sir.
Matty Muscles : Good good.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Alright.
RICK JAMES: Yes, sir.
Mike : Yes sir.
RICK JAMES: Yep.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Cool. Well, that'll do it for another episode. All right, episode 193. We're getting up there, almost 200. 193 of the Snow Jobs Podcast main shows in the books, right? That's it, guys.
The SnowJobs Podcast: Thanks to the boys for the time. Appreciate it. Couldn't do it without them. Everybody out there, or i'd be safe. Have a great week. Keep pushing.
