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14: The Importance of Relationships w/ Monte Syrie
16 Plays7 years ago
In this podcast, Monte Syrie joins us to talk about building relationships with our students. Monte operates a daily educational reflective blog at letschangeeducation.com, serves as an adjunct professor of education at Eastern Washington University, and is a high school English teacher and department chair at Cheney High School in Cheney, Washington.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, welcome back to Things Fall Apart here from the Human Restoration Project.
00:00:14
Speaker
I'm Chris.
00:00:16
Speaker
Usually I'll be joined by Michael.
00:00:17
Speaker
Michael is currently expecting his first child as well as has a broken ankle.
00:00:22
Speaker
So he's sending this one out, but I'll try to make things work here on my own.
00:00:27
Speaker
Today we're going to be talking about student relationships.
Teacher-Student Relationships: Rapport vs Authenticity
00:00:30
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Obviously we all feel like it's very important that we have relationships with our kids as teachers.
00:00:35
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I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
00:00:37
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However,
00:00:38
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Why is it that someone wouldn't think that way?
00:00:41
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And is there a difference between how we view teacher-student relationships through this idea of rapport versus what an authentic relationship is?
00:00:52
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I'm kind of curious to kind of explore more about what makes an authentic learning environment.
00:00:59
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And it's the only way to have this true relationship building to be through progressive education.
00:01:06
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So do we need to shift away from standards?
00:01:08
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Do we need to shift away from content being key in order to ensure that our children effectively learn?
00:01:14
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Because how can you have real relationships without transparency and without doing what's best for kids?
Empowerment in Education: Control or Freedom?
00:01:21
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Is it actually possible to build an authentic relationship in a place where you are no longer really in control of the systemic issues that are going on?
00:01:32
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In other words, are we just being very effective prison guards, as in we're building a relationship with our inmates so that they feel valued and they listen to us and we have kind of a little trusting relationship?
00:01:44
Speaker
Or are we really empowering people so that it's no longer a prison at all?
00:01:49
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And honestly, is that even possible?
Monty's Journey: From Student Challenge to Educational Blogging
00:01:51
Speaker
So today, this topic is all going to be about relationships and how we build them.
00:01:59
Speaker
Today, we're joined by Monty Sairi.
00:02:09
Speaker
a proponent of student relationships who operates a daily educational reflective blog at letschangeeducation.com.
00:02:16
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He serves as an adjunct professor of education at Eastern Washington University and is a high school English teacher and department chair at Cheney High School in Cheney, Washington.
00:02:26
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining me today, Mati.
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, Chris, I'm really excited to be here.
00:02:31
Speaker
You know, I was thrilled when you guys contacted me, and so I'm honored and grateful to be here with you today.
00:02:36
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:02:37
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I love this topic, and I think we can make a big foray into kind of thinking more about this topic beyond just saying relationships are important, because obviously they are.
00:02:46
Speaker
The main reason why we contacted you initially is we started reading this blog that you have, and it's very interesting to us.
00:02:51
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So you have a blog that's entitled Project 180 and Endless Quests for Better, which is at letschangeeducation.com.
00:02:59
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where you've tracked various topics in education and your life over basically the last, I think it's now 151 days out of 180.
00:03:07
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What were your inspirations for kind of starting this blog and what was kind of your overall goal?
00:03:12
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Yeah, so a little bit of the backstory.
00:03:14
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It kind of started off as a challenge or a dare from one of my students.
00:03:18
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Two years ago, we were doing an independent learning project.
00:03:21
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And as we were getting going, Megan Lavin, one of my kids at the time, said, well, Cy, of course, you're going to do one too, right?
00:03:28
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And we had to pursue something of interest, something that we kind of put off or never really pursued, something that was outside the realm of school.
00:03:34
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And I'd always wanted to start a blog, and so I decided to make that my independent learning project.
00:03:40
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And that's kind of where Let's Change Education came from.
00:03:44
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Didn't really have the idea in mind for 180 until I kind of got going.
00:03:47
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And the more I got going and the more I blogged, the more I found myself writing about the things, the conventional and traditional things in education that kind of bothered me.
00:03:57
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And so I found myself writing about those a lot.
00:03:59
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And as the year went on, I decided the next year I was going to blog every day.
00:04:04
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And that's kind of where the first initial idea of 180 came, because out here in Washington, we have 180 school
Challenging Educational Conventions
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days.
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And so I just decided I was going to commit to writing a blog every single day.
00:04:16
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But of course, I also wanted to make sure that I was writing about something that was important, I thought, in terms of changing education.
00:04:23
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So with that,
00:04:26
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My initial goals were to challenge convention and tradition in the status quo.
00:04:32
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And, you know, I'm unsettled and I find this quiet in the way things are.
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And the longer I've been at this, you know, 22 years now, the more I'm convinced that we embrace the status quo, not for its wisdom, but its comfort.
00:04:43
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So in a sense, I'm always looking to make myself or take myself out of the conventional kind of safety zone and take myself away from the status quo.
00:04:51
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And so I try to turn things upside down.
00:04:53
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And that's kind of where my other thought for 180 came is to flip something upside down, 180 degrees.
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And I decided I was going to flip education upside down.
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But I can't just, you know, flip it on its back, leave it there.
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So I approached my learning 180 degrees at a time.
00:05:10
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I imagine myself stuck in a circle, rolling along on my journey, kind of chasing better.
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That's the idea of endless quest to chase better.
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And that is where my mantra, do reflect, do better, came from.
00:05:21
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And the cycle never ends.
00:05:23
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You know, Chris, it can't.
00:05:24
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I just keep chasing better.
00:05:25
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As I learn, as I fail, as I succeed, it's kind of my perpetual path.
00:05:29
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And I think those of us who are willing to kind of brave beyond, if you will, don't always have the answers, of course.
00:05:39
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It's that we're seeking the answers because we're unsettled with what has been present practice.
00:05:45
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And so that's kind of, you know, my journey.
00:05:48
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And, you know, what do I hope to accomplish?
00:05:51
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silly as it sounds, I want to change the world, man.
00:05:53
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Um, that may be a bit much, but you know, let me qualify that a little bit.
00:05:59
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I want to change worlds, you know, and I cannot change the world, but I do believe that I can better kids worlds by changing their educational experience in my classroom.
00:06:07
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Um, I really believe that.
00:06:09
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And so I, you know, I'll keep on keeping on, you know, 180 degrees at a time and, and just chasing
Innovative Teaching and Grading Methods
00:06:14
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better.
00:06:14
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And, and this is my second full year of, of actually doing 180.
00:06:17
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So, um,
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you know, and I plan to do it again next year.
00:06:21
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It's just really kind of become a habit for me.
00:06:23
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And I'm still not settled with where education is.
00:06:26
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And once we get there, which will probably be never, I'll stop.
00:06:28
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So I'll probably do it now for the rest of my career.
00:06:31
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Yeah, for sure.
00:06:32
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I honestly love that dreamer aspect.
00:06:34
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I think that's something that you and I probably agree very heavily on.
00:06:38
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Well, I mean, the world would be so much better of a place that people just didn't fall in line and just went with whatever was out there and just kind of got depressed and kind of in like their own like little zone and
00:06:48
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They just kind of went with the flow because that's just the way it is.
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And they just kind of stopped.
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If everyone wanted to change the world, the world would change.
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It's pretty obvious.
00:06:57
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I also love what you said, too, about that idea.
00:07:00
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I don't necessarily know what's wrong.
00:07:02
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Or sorry, I don't necessarily know what's right.
00:07:04
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But I do know what's wrong.
00:07:06
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It's not necessarily that we all have all the right answers.
00:07:08
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Of course we don't.
00:07:09
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But if we know if something isn't correct, then why are we not working to change it?
00:07:13
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It seems wrong.
00:07:14
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very contradictory.
00:07:16
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Yeah.
00:07:16
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So out of curiosity, when you first started teaching, has this been like a gradual change for you to kind of start attacking or not attacking, but necessarily being reflective on traditional education, or is this something that you've kind of always been for?
00:07:30
Speaker
And now you're just starting to reach out more so to the web world, if you will.
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:36
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You know, to be honest, Chris, I found myself kind of challenging the status quo, you know, from, from the very first day of,
00:07:43
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And I have dabbled here and dabbled there along the way.
00:07:47
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And when Megan kind of challenged me to kind of, if you will, take my vision out into the world through my voice with my blog, it kind of emboldened me a little bit.
00:07:59
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And as I found that I was speaking the language of some others out there, I realized that I'm not alone in this.
00:08:05
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And I found hope and strength in that.
00:08:07
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So
00:08:08
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And I continue to find more, even crossing paths with you guys and all the folks that I have.
00:08:14
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It's been a fantastic journey, and I'm so glad I did it.
00:08:16
Speaker
And I'm so bummed I waited so long to do it.
00:08:18
Speaker
It seems like
00:08:19
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The message that you're sending out is something that many, many people can benefit from, which is part of the reason why we want to make sure that we could share it.
00:08:27
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Yeah.
00:08:28
Speaker
So I'm curious then also, do you get any pushback or this could be positive or negative, I guess.
00:08:34
Speaker
Could you get any positive feedback from your students that I'm sure have discovered your blog?
00:08:38
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Because I'm sure they found you on Twitter or whatever, or maybe.
00:08:40
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:08:41
Speaker
I don't know.
00:08:42
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And also, how does maybe your peers or administration respond to the fact that you have this blog?
00:08:49
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Or do they even care?
00:08:50
Speaker
You know, they don't seem to care.
00:08:52
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And initially, Chris, when I first started it two years ago, I wanted them to care more.
00:08:57
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I made a pretty bold move with grading.
00:09:00
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And part of it was I wanted to come to the table and talk about grading.
00:09:04
Speaker
And so I made a pretty bold move.
00:09:07
Speaker
I gave all my kids an A for the year, no matter what.
00:09:10
Speaker
And a lot of people found that crazy, but no one really wanted to engage me in a conversation about it because I think it would have called attention to their own grading practices.
00:09:20
Speaker
And I don't want to go too far down that road, but I think you know as well as I do, there's no manual out there that they hand to us when we enter the room that says, here, this is the best and most effective and fair way to grade kids.
00:09:32
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We're just making this step up as we go along.
00:09:34
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And so I thought, you know what?
00:09:35
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to get folks' attention, I'm really going to make it up.
00:09:38
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And I'm going to give every single kid an A, and I am going to focus on learning this year.
00:09:43
Speaker
I'm going to take grades completely off the table, and I'm going to write about it for an entire year.
00:09:48
Speaker
And that's really where Project 180 got started, and it was the best experience I've ever had.
00:09:52
Speaker
And I got a lot out of my kids, and I invited my administration in.
00:09:58
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They knew what I was doing, the superintendent.
00:10:00
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I had
00:10:01
Speaker
school board members, kids in class, and it was fantastic.
00:10:04
Speaker
But I'll be honest, Chris, I was hoping for a little more pushback so we could have a serious come-to-the-table conversation about grading practices.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's very interesting to me.
00:10:14
Speaker
It seems like the more you push against the state or the more that you push against these outdated practices, as you just said, the more people actually seem to enjoy what you're doing and don't question the fact that what you're doing is exactly the opposite of what they're telling you to do.
00:10:31
Speaker
Michael and I all the time, we're in Ohio, so we have the Ohio Department of Education come out and see what we're doing.
00:10:35
Speaker
Like, man, this is all fantastic.
00:10:37
Speaker
It's like, you guys realize this is the complete opposite of every single thing that you're laying out for us to do.
00:10:44
Speaker
And it sounds a lot like what you're doing in your own classroom.
00:10:46
Speaker
It's like this idea, like, let's just throw out all grades so the superintendent can come and say, look at how great everything is.
00:10:52
Speaker
It's just, it's so bizarre.
00:10:55
Speaker
It is.
00:10:56
Speaker
It really is.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:57
Speaker
So, Monty, one thing I really wanted to focus on,
00:11:00
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Even though I would love to talk to you about the grade aspect of it, too.
00:11:03
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A topic that we always want to talk about is developing relationships with
Genuine Connections in Education
00:11:07
Speaker
our students.
00:11:08
Speaker
I don't think there is an educator alive who's a good educator who does not believe that relationships are the most important thing in education.
00:11:15
Speaker
It's bar none the most important thing.
00:11:18
Speaker
And all the different practices that we take place in our classroom feed into that relationship outside of obviously like just talking to your kids.
00:11:25
Speaker
So the question I have for you is not necessarily why relationships are important, because I think most people, especially those that would be listening to this podcast, would know that relationships are important.
00:11:37
Speaker
So the question I have is, why would someone not think that they're important?
00:11:43
Speaker
And to kind of expand on that, a lot of times I feel like in teacher training programs or whenever I read a book about education, they talk a lot about building rapport.
00:11:52
Speaker
They talk about building rapport with your students.
00:11:54
Speaker
And for some reason, I feel like that's disconnected from just the idea of building a relationship.
00:12:01
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And I don't know if that's because they still want to have this power differential where it's, well, I'm the teacher, they're the student, so it's not really a relationship.
00:12:10
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We're not really friends.
00:12:11
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It's just rapport.
00:12:13
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But at the same time, I also wonder if...
00:12:16
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Rapport doesn't also lend itself to like a tips and tricks style of this is not to disparage people that do this because I have no problem with this.
00:12:24
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But it's like I give my kids high fives every single day when they walk into the room because I want them to have a positive learning experience.
00:12:31
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There's nothing wrong with that.
00:12:32
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And I'm perfectly cool with that.
00:12:34
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But the same time I wonder if there are teachers out there that are constantly thinking.
00:12:39
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I don't know if you play computer games.
00:12:41
Speaker
I'll make a video game reference here.
00:12:42
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But in The Sims, they have this thing.
00:12:44
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You give a high five to someone.
00:12:46
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You get relationship points with them.
00:12:47
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And part of the game is you want to build up your relationship points very high so that you're friends with each other.
00:12:52
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It's not necessarily that you care about being friends with them.
00:12:54
Speaker
It's more just you want to get your points up so that they feel like they're your friend.
00:12:59
Speaker
I don't know if that line of thought makes much sense.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, you know, Chris, I love this question.
00:13:05
Speaker
And I have a long, messy answer to it.
00:13:08
Speaker
And I think it's dealing with specifically what you were just talking about.
00:13:11
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And so here we go.
00:13:12
Speaker
I, with you, don't think it's a teacher's think that relationships are important.
00:13:16
Speaker
I think most, if you said, hey, are relationships with your kids important in your classroom?
00:13:19
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They would say yes.
00:13:21
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And I think they would even go further to say that they have them with their students.
00:13:25
Speaker
But I don't see that relationships are a universal emphasis in the classroom.
00:13:29
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I don't see that they're an intentional focus, but I believe they have to be.
00:13:33
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I think relationships, real relationships have to be intentional.
00:13:37
Speaker
I don't think they're accidental.
00:13:38
Speaker
I don't think they're a Sims game where you rack up points by giving kids high fives.
00:13:42
Speaker
Not that there's anything wrong with giving kids high fives.
00:13:45
Speaker
I believe in that.
00:13:45
Speaker
I'm more of a fist pump guy, but there's more to it than just that.
00:13:51
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So I think then we teachers claim that relationships are important or when we have teachers who claim that they're important, we kind of have a case of talking versus walking.
00:14:01
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And to be frank, I think we have too many teachers who talk and too few who walk, especially as the year gets on.
00:14:06
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I think we have a lot of what I call icebreaker teachers out there, ones who make relationships a priority for the first few days of the year, utilizing icebreaker activities, et cetera.
00:14:16
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But they soon move on, and what was a priority seems to kind of become an afterthought.
00:14:21
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And the ice, if you will, returns.
00:14:22
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And I think there's a reason for that.
00:14:24
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And I think it stems from the terminology that we use, and you kind of touched on this a little bit, student-teacher relationships.
00:14:30
Speaker
Student-teacher division, not connection, artificial, not real.
00:14:35
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And I believe that's part of the problem.
00:14:38
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Real or imagine, you know, we, teachers and students exist in the divide, and I think it's an unnecessary divide.
00:14:44
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Of course, there is some natural necessity in the divide.
00:14:47
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I mean, I think there has to be some separation.
00:14:49
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There has to be some boundaries.
00:14:50
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I'm not suggesting that we don't need a degree of division.
00:14:53
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After all, we are the adults in the room.
00:14:56
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I am simply suggesting that the divide does not have to be as wide as we make it.
00:15:00
Speaker
We've been cast into roles, I think.
00:15:02
Speaker
I think teachers and students
00:15:04
Speaker
And there are perceptions that have typecasted us.
00:15:06
Speaker
And as such, we think we have to be a certain way.
00:15:09
Speaker
And I think that's so important.
00:15:10
Speaker
We think we have to be a certain way.
00:15:13
Speaker
And again, it's kind of going back to this is how it's always been done.
00:15:15
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This is what I'm comfortable with.
00:15:16
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This is convention.
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This is tradition.
00:15:18
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This is status quo.
00:15:19
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And so we've kind of fallen into line, I believe.
00:15:22
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And while those perceptions present the ways in kind of various lights from strict to moderate to lenient,
00:15:27
Speaker
at least as a broad stroke, I think there's a settled middle, if you will, that becomes the default, which creates a scripted source that when played out presents kind of a transactional experience between teachers and students.
00:15:37
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And I think for the most part, sadly, we accept that.
00:15:40
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It's how it's always been done.
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And thus, it has kind of become the basic formula for our existence in the classroom.
00:15:46
Speaker
You know, teachers teach and students, students.
00:15:49
Speaker
But in that separateness, it's created a dynamic that divides.
00:15:52
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And there's no shared ownership or responsibility, I think,
00:15:56
Speaker
Teachers stick to the script, afraid or unwilling to deviate from that which is accepted.
00:16:00
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And it's not that much different for our students as they have become conditioned to accept and endure.
00:16:05
Speaker
And I really do think endure in some cases their roles.
00:16:08
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And the show goes on and on and on, you know, and we ad-lib at opportune times and try to make our lakes less frozen, if you will.
00:16:14
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But I think we fall back into routines and we make transactions and not connections.
00:16:19
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Again, especially as the year goes on and we become stressed out about state testing and
00:16:22
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and other things, you know, we fall back to that rut, that routine and that default.
00:16:28
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But I think we have to make connections and I think we can make connections.
00:16:31
Speaker
I think we can deviate from the script.
00:16:34
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And I think it can be as simple as reframing our interpretations of those roles.
00:16:38
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If we can imagine our roles, not as teacher and student, but simply as people join in an opportunity to experience life and learning, then we change the story.
00:16:46
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And as the story changes, I think so do our roles.
00:16:49
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You know, our experience then is not centered on the artificial transactions that are so presently pervasive in school.
00:16:55
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Rather, it is centered on the struggle and triumph of growth, you know, human growth, growing together as humans.
00:17:01
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And isn't that what it's about?
00:17:02
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I mean, isn't that what connects us?
00:17:04
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You know, we're all growing as a human.
00:17:06
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I struggle and succeed every single day.
00:17:10
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I probably struggle more than succeed if I'm honest.
00:17:12
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As students, as humans, my kids struggle and succeed every day.
00:17:15
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And so why do I have to pretend that because I have the word teacher on my dressing room door that I am really any different than they who have students on theirs?
00:17:23
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I am no different, so I no longer pretend.
00:17:25
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I no longer play that role.
00:17:26
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We are not in separate rooms.
00:17:28
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We are in one room, one beautiful, complex, messy, connected room where the human story goes on every single day.
The Role of Empathy in Education
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And ultimately, we're just connected.
00:17:36
Speaker
And I think that if we can get beyond that traditional student-teacher relationship and just think, you know, we're human sharing space and sharing life, I think we can make a difference.
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah, you're speaking to my heartstrings.
00:17:48
Speaker
I love that emphatic response.
00:17:49
Speaker
You're hitting the nail on the head on every single point for me.
00:17:53
Speaker
I love your verbiage as well.
00:17:55
Speaker
As you just said, as teachers move into the classroom, they spend, if you're amazing at your job, maybe three days, because how could you possibly go away from teaching all of that content that you need to teach for the test if you spend three days doing icebreaker activities?
00:18:10
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But then we'll never address those things again.
00:18:12
Speaker
What it makes me think of is a very common teaching practice is passing out note cards to all your kids where they write down like, what do you want to be when you grow up?
00:18:20
Speaker
What's like your favorite song?
00:18:22
Speaker
Rather than that being used for a way to really get to know your students, typically that is just a day one activity to learn what their names are.
00:18:30
Speaker
Well, that person likes this band, so I'm going to remember their name a little bit easier.
00:18:34
Speaker
It doesn't actually serve any teaching purpose outside of that notion.
00:18:39
Speaker
And kids know that too.
00:18:40
Speaker
Like kids, kids know that this teacher is going to be like this.
00:18:44
Speaker
They're this kind of teacher.
00:18:46
Speaker
In many ways, they are just pretending to like me or they're pretending to get on my side because they want me to learn the content at the end of the day.
00:18:55
Speaker
I think what you're alluding to, it's going to build into another one of these questions, is building relationships isn't necessarily just about being friendly with kids and getting to know them better.
Restoring Humanity in Education
00:19:05
Speaker
That's assumed.
00:19:06
Speaker
But a lot of it is standing up for your kids and empathizing with the situation that they're in and making sure that your classroom is one that values them as human beings and is not just a classroom that is
00:19:17
Speaker
knows that they are human beings, but at the same time, they have to get the coursework done.
00:19:22
Speaker
And as a result, the relationships will naturally be lost in a classroom where the learning is just robotic.
00:19:30
Speaker
It's no longer human.
00:19:31
Speaker
The idea of memorizing a bunch of outdated information or being gauged and competing against others based off of scores or to just walk into a room
00:19:43
Speaker
realistically against your will, you have to be there and be forced to eat your peas and carrots, so to speak.
00:19:49
Speaker
Right.
00:19:50
Speaker
Someone who is just some dude or just some gal, whoever, you know, they don't really know who you are.
00:19:56
Speaker
You're just in the building.
00:19:59
Speaker
It's not like they had any choice in most of this matter.
00:20:02
Speaker
It becomes very difficult to build an authentic relationship there when you can't empathize.
00:20:08
Speaker
and actually change something about it.
00:20:10
Speaker
Well, no, and I think once kids realize that we're genuinely empathizing with them, you know, and not just breaking the ice, you know, in the first few days of the year, we move from a place of compliance to commitment.
00:20:23
Speaker
You know, the kids see that, hey, we're there for them, you know, and I think, like you said, we'll kind of get into this answer a little later on, but, you know, that empathy piece is absolutely huge.
00:20:38
Speaker
Thanks in advance.
00:21:08
Speaker
The reason why Michael and I started the Human Restoration Project is literally what you're talking about right now.
00:21:15
Speaker
It's on the nose.
00:21:16
Speaker
Well, one, we like sci-fi.
00:21:18
Speaker
But two, Human Restoration Project is the idea of restoring humanity.
00:21:22
Speaker
It's the idea of literally bringing humans back into education.
00:21:26
Speaker
So we're looking at students, teachers, parents, administration, the community.
00:21:30
Speaker
It doesn't really matter who it is.
00:21:32
Speaker
As people, we're not data, we're not robots, we're not industrial tools, which is sadly how the people that really invented this style of education thought of people back in the late 1800s.
00:21:43
Speaker
They wanted assembly line workers.
00:21:45
Speaker
They didn't really care at all about who these people were.
00:21:48
Speaker
Right.
00:21:50
Speaker
What steps do you think would need to be taken then if we're going to move towards an education that's more human?
00:21:56
Speaker
What would we need to do?
00:21:58
Speaker
Yeah, you ended that question with, you know, at least what you wrote here to me, you know, to what steps do you believe that school should take to embrace humanity and education?
00:22:07
Speaker
Embrace humanity and education.
00:22:09
Speaker
I love that.
00:22:10
Speaker
I love that ideal.
00:22:11
Speaker
And I think we can make it a reality.
00:22:13
Speaker
And I have a thought for that.
00:22:15
Speaker
Bear with me here.
00:22:16
Speaker
If the quality of our lives is determined by how we feel, feelings then govern the lives we live.
00:22:21
Speaker
But we do not live life alone.
00:22:22
Speaker
Our lives bring us into contact with others and others affect how we feel.
00:22:27
Speaker
They hold that power, but others have feelings too.
00:22:30
Speaker
And we hold that power.
00:22:31
Speaker
We all then have power.
00:22:33
Speaker
We all, we have power in people's lives.
00:22:34
Speaker
We impact the quality of their lives.
00:22:36
Speaker
So we should consider others feelings.
00:22:38
Speaker
When we consider others feelings, we create empathy.
00:22:41
Speaker
Empathy connects, connections create humanity.
00:22:44
Speaker
If we aren't connected, we are without humanity.
00:22:47
Speaker
We are lost and when we are lost, we are nowhere, but I think we can get unlost.
00:22:52
Speaker
I've already spoken of the divide that happens when we fail to make connections.
00:22:56
Speaker
So then how do we succeed in making connections in each other?
00:23:00
Speaker
We have to connect with each other.
00:23:01
Speaker
And I know this may sound Pollyannish, I get that, but the connection rests in what makes us more human than anything, feelings.
00:23:07
Speaker
Here's how I do it in my classroom.
00:23:09
Speaker
I begin with a simple question.
00:23:11
Speaker
How do I want students to feel in my classroom?
00:23:14
Speaker
I am in control of that.
00:23:15
Speaker
I cannot always control outside factors, but I can't control how people feel in my room.
00:23:19
Speaker
I have that autonomy.
00:23:21
Speaker
I have that power.
00:23:22
Speaker
That power.
00:23:23
Speaker
Isn't that crazy?
00:23:24
Speaker
I have the power to build.
00:23:26
Speaker
I have the power to destroy.
00:23:27
Speaker
I can make a day.
00:23:28
Speaker
I can ruin a day, and that's scary.
00:23:30
Speaker
That responsibility to me is terrifying.
00:23:32
Speaker
And so from that place, I consider carefully how I want to use that power, how I want to make students feel in my classroom.
00:23:39
Speaker
Here's my list of six that I present to my kids.
00:23:41
Speaker
In my room, I want you to feel empowered,
00:23:44
Speaker
connected, valued, respected, challenged, and supported.
00:23:49
Speaker
These are my standards.
00:23:51
Speaker
I choose them.
00:23:51
Speaker
I consider them and I do my best to honor them.
00:23:55
Speaker
Every decision I make from how I interact with my kids to how I instruct to how I assess starts from here.
00:24:01
Speaker
And to hold myself to account, I ask my kids how I'm doing.
00:24:04
Speaker
I make it public.
00:24:05
Speaker
I make it personal.
00:24:06
Speaker
If I want a kid to feel supported and she tells me that she does not feel supported, I take that personally.
00:24:11
Speaker
And so I ask and the kids tell.
00:24:13
Speaker
And when I have found that I have not lived up to my standards, I do my best to do better.
00:24:17
Speaker
And that, I believe, is the starting point for embracing humanity and education.
Skepticism and Student-Centered Approaches
00:24:21
Speaker
Yeah, that empathy piece is so key.
00:24:24
Speaker
I'm going to take a cynical approach here for a second.
00:24:27
Speaker
I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, but I'm curious about how you would respond to someone that would say this, because I've been told this before by, sadly, fellow teachers.
00:24:36
Speaker
What about someone that comes up to you and says, yeah, but they are just kids.
00:24:41
Speaker
So they don't really know what they need.
00:24:43
Speaker
You have to tell them what they need.
00:24:45
Speaker
And they need a lot of the stuff that you're going to give them.
00:24:48
Speaker
So, I mean, at the end of the day, shouldn't you just kind of be in charge?
00:24:51
Speaker
That kind of response.
00:24:52
Speaker
You know, and I've had similar instances where people have done that, you know, and kind of on top of that, I've had the, you know, how are you preparing them for the real world?
00:25:01
Speaker
Right.
00:25:02
Speaker
Which which drives me absolutely bonkers.
00:25:05
Speaker
Um, you know, because I think the kids' world feel pretty real to them already.
00:25:09
Speaker
Um, but anyway, you know, uh, I, I would ask them, I think, uh, Chris, in this particular context, you know, I would ask them, well, how do you want kids to feel in your room?
00:25:19
Speaker
Um, and I think it would be interesting to see what their, their list was.
00:25:22
Speaker
And then it would be interesting to kind of hear from them then how they go about making those things happen for their kids.
00:25:28
Speaker
You know, um, you know, uh,
00:25:31
Speaker
And I think it would be interesting for them to kind of, the teacher in particular, to look and see where they're centered and what they're really looking for in their kids.
00:25:39
Speaker
I think for some of those teachers, the ones who really do own that idea of we have to teach the kids and we have to prepare them for the real world, would have a difficult time coming up with the list.
00:25:50
Speaker
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think the difference between them, if we can categorize them as them and us, if you will, though I don't necessarily like that dichotomy,
00:26:01
Speaker
but it exists, I think, is that we think hard and long about the decisions we make in our classrooms with our kids.
00:26:11
Speaker
We don't take it necessarily just straight from the state standards.
00:26:14
Speaker
We don't necessarily take it from our textbook.
00:26:16
Speaker
You know, we take it from our interactions with our kids.
00:26:20
Speaker
I can't teach a kid until I know a kid is what I would suggest to those people.
00:26:24
Speaker
And I work really hard to get to know my kids.
00:26:27
Speaker
Oh, I can deliver content.
00:26:28
Speaker
Anybody can deliver content.
00:26:30
Speaker
You know, and of course, there are degrees of doing that more expert, you know, with greater expertise or not.
00:26:35
Speaker
But I think it takes a great teacher, if you will, to connect with kids and meet them where they are and to take them where they want to
Reframing Student Perception
00:26:43
Speaker
go.
00:26:43
Speaker
And that doesn't always happen with that teacher who believes that they have to.
00:26:47
Speaker
You know, I think we could think about kids in a couple of ways.
00:26:50
Speaker
You know, if we think that they're empty canvases to be filled, you know, that's one way.
00:26:55
Speaker
But I like to think of them as works to be appreciated.
00:26:58
Speaker
And I want to learn those works and add to those works, not just fill those works.
00:27:02
Speaker
And I feel like on the other side of that, sometimes those teachers feel it's their responsibility, their job to fill that blank canvas.
00:27:11
Speaker
And, you know, I may have thought that once upon a time in my career, but I don't think that any longer, you know.
00:27:16
Speaker
Um, I just think kids are someone, are, are, are people to be appreciated and learn from and learn with, you know?
00:27:22
Speaker
So I don't know if I really answered your question, but, um, you know, I don't know.
00:27:26
Speaker
Those people, those people are always interesting to me who, who kind of push and persist to, to, um, put kids in their place, if you will.
00:27:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:33
Speaker
And I found my, to be, to be, to be, um, completely opposite to that, especially in the last, you know, the last 10 years of my career.
00:27:41
Speaker
The point that you brought up about that idea of what would we ask an educator who thinks like that, what would they want their students to be, reminds me of Alfie Cohn opens up a lot of his parenting talks with this idea of he asked the entire audience what it is they want their children or anyone's children to be when they grow up.
Preparing Students for an Unpredictable Future
00:28:01
Speaker
And they raise their hands and they typically say, like, well, I want them to be happy.
00:28:05
Speaker
I want them to get married, have kids, like a bunch of, like, traditional stuff like that.
00:28:09
Speaker
Or I want them to travel the world, whatever.
00:28:10
Speaker
They want to live up to their aspirations.
00:28:12
Speaker
And then he brings up the fact that in school, we actually don't empathize any of those things.
00:28:19
Speaker
I find it very odd that whenever you look at a vision statement to a school...
00:28:24
Speaker
Vision statements, I have not yet to find one that says just make kids happy.
00:28:28
Speaker
There is nothing.
00:28:29
Speaker
It's always preparing them for the future, which is, it's like almost like a trigger word for me.
00:28:35
Speaker
I hate that phrase.
00:28:37
Speaker
Preparing them for the real world is one.
00:28:39
Speaker
Preparing them for the future is another one.
00:28:40
Speaker
First off, if we were going to prepare kids for the real world, we wouldn't be doing half the things that we're doing in school right now.
00:28:47
Speaker
The idea, this might be, I don't know, I kind of go back and forth on this in my head.
00:28:54
Speaker
But sometimes I think to myself, I teach history and government.
00:28:57
Speaker
Michael teaches English.
00:28:59
Speaker
We talk a lot about why do we even have kids writing academic papers if they're not going into academia?
00:29:04
Speaker
Shouldn't we be teaching them how to write a blog or how to post on Twitter?
00:29:09
Speaker
Because in the real world, that is actually something that you do with writing.
00:29:12
Speaker
Most people don't go on to write five-page paragraph essays.
00:29:16
Speaker
One part of that is the idea that we aren't really preparing kids for the real world to begin with.
00:29:20
Speaker
So the idea that they're not going to be successful in the real world because we're not teaching them the standards that we have right now doesn't make any sense.
00:29:26
Speaker
It doesn't equate to me.
00:29:29
Speaker
The second part, though, of that that bothers me a lot is if we're going to prepare kids for the future, then we're definitely not doing that with our current standards.
00:29:37
Speaker
First off, you have no idea what the future holds.
00:29:40
Speaker
So there's absolutely no way that you could give someone a set of standards that
00:29:45
Speaker
that is content-based, that could prepare someone for the future.
00:29:50
Speaker
Right now, we're trying to go for this coding initiative, like teach everyone coding, which it's great.
00:29:54
Speaker
If you want to teach kids to learn how to code, I'm fine with it.
00:29:57
Speaker
But to say that that's going to prepare them for the future, to me, is incredibly outdated.
00:30:02
Speaker
Because by the time those kids graduate, first off,
00:30:05
Speaker
The majority of people don't actually code.
00:30:07
Speaker
Most people use code that other people already write.
00:30:09
Speaker
So it's a very actual small field in the greater scheme of technology.
00:30:14
Speaker
But if we're going to prepare kids for the future, we would have to be predicting people that can mess with AI algorithms, that can work with things of that nature.
00:30:22
Speaker
And we can't really predict that.
00:30:23
Speaker
So instead, a step that we could take in order to be really future prepared would be teaching kids...
00:30:30
Speaker
basic skills that they need in order to tackle these objectives.
00:30:33
Speaker
Like how do you work with others to overcome a problem?
00:30:36
Speaker
Or how do you, how do you fail?
00:30:38
Speaker
Well, as a huge one, how do you, how can you be faced with adversity?
00:30:42
Speaker
How can you get to a point where you no longer feel like you can do something or you, you bomb something and it's not the end of the world.
00:30:48
Speaker
That's completely normal to be like that.
00:30:51
Speaker
I can't tell you how many times I've been in my classroom where a kid has not succeeded at something.
00:30:55
Speaker
I've been like, yeah, okay, let's, let's keep going.
00:30:57
Speaker
It's all good.
00:30:58
Speaker
And they're just confused by that.
00:31:00
Speaker
Or a parent is definitely confused by that.
00:31:03
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:31:04
Speaker
That notion of we're preparing kids for the future or even we're preparing them for real life is not present in sadly the majority of classrooms.
00:31:11
Speaker
And I think that the, I don't want to say average teacher because I don't like to make overbroad generalizations, but I can say with my experience of working with teachers, I would say the majority of them don't seem to understand yet that content is not more important than just
00:31:28
Speaker
learning like the content, your classroom area is not more important than relationships and learning of soft skills.
Balancing Content with Relationship Building
00:31:36
Speaker
And realistically, you could cut down your content to 25% of it is white right now and just make it thematic.
00:31:43
Speaker
and still get the same outcome content-wise in terms of remembering it, while still building all these other really important things that we should have.
00:31:53
Speaker
Agree with that wholeheartedly.
00:31:54
Speaker
Here's a good question to kind of branch off of that, which would be, how do we balance between the fact that, yes, we believe that skills, relationships, empathy, all these things are obviously way more important than content.
00:32:08
Speaker
However, that being said, the state does care about content.
00:32:13
Speaker
At the end of the day, quote unquote, there is a standardized test that measures, sadly, our performance, at least according to them.
00:32:24
Speaker
And a lot of times state funding is attached to those standardized tests.
00:32:28
Speaker
If you don't do well on those, the community might not respect you as much.
00:32:30
Speaker
There's still a lot of work to be done in terms of spreading these ideas, let alone to teachers, but to parents in the community.
00:32:38
Speaker
Parents often brag about like their school has a excellence with distinction or whatever banner hangs up in the gym about how great they are at having kids attend school and do well on tests.
00:32:48
Speaker
Right, right.
00:32:49
Speaker
I'm going to refer to a blog that you wrote.
00:32:52
Speaker
It was a poem, actually.
00:32:54
Speaker
So you wrote this poem on shame.
00:32:56
Speaker
And you talked about how you felt shame because you couldn't really stand up against the standardized testing system.
00:33:03
Speaker
Because in your view and in mine as well, the standardized testing system measures to mean students.
00:33:09
Speaker
So do you think there's a way that you can reconcile having positive relationships with students while still practicing traditional methods that have proven negative consequences for them?
00:33:22
Speaker
So, I mean, like giving out grades, which you've already said you give out all A's, so we can kind of, I guess, scratch that one off.
00:33:29
Speaker
But there's also things like standardized testing.
00:33:32
Speaker
zero tolerance policies.
00:33:33
Speaker
I don't know what your school has in terms of those.
00:33:36
Speaker
But there's just these different policies that exist that are kind of hard to get away with just as a teacher.
00:33:44
Speaker
If you're in an administrative position, you can do a little bit more, but I'm just curious about your thoughts on that.
00:33:49
Speaker
Yeah, boy, this is a hard question, but I have some thoughts for sure.
00:33:52
Speaker
You know, that morning post kind of found where I wrote the poem kind of found me at a tough place where I was having my own troubles with reconciling what goes on in the classroom and what goes on without, you know,
00:34:01
Speaker
And there are things without that I cannot or have not learned to fully control.
00:34:05
Speaker
And the one line that really mattered to me most there from the poem, the one short stanza, but then why, Cy?
00:34:13
Speaker
Why weren't you brave?
00:34:14
Speaker
Why didn't you from this us save?
00:34:16
Speaker
And for me a little bit, I felt like I was
00:34:18
Speaker
you know, selling my kids out and selling myself out a little bit.
00:34:22
Speaker
And I think that that's why I was having such a hard time that morning, you know, because I go all year long telling the kids, like, they matter.
00:34:28
Speaker
We hope you're enjoying the podcast.
00:34:30
Speaker
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00:34:34
Speaker
Take a second and check out our website at humanrestorationproject.org for more podcasts, our blog, and all sorts of free resources that we've designed for educators.
00:34:43
Speaker
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00:34:46
Speaker
For as little as $1 a month, Patreon supporters receive goodies for being listed in the credits of our resources to early access to what we do.
00:34:53
Speaker
Thanks in advance.
00:34:55
Speaker
But I would argue that it's terribly difficult to subscribe to the traditions and conventions of ed, especially those that carry negative consequences, grading comes to mind, and have real relationships, which I think extends beyond positive.
00:35:08
Speaker
You know, I think a lot of teachers think they have positive relationships with their kids, and that's great, but
00:35:12
Speaker
I sometimes feel like positive is the absence of negative in that regard.
00:35:16
Speaker
And for me, that's just not enough, if that makes sense.
00:35:18
Speaker
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:35:20
Speaker
I think then where things get complicated is when teachers and students meet at the crossroads of possible and impossible.
00:35:27
Speaker
In my experience, for most things, it comes down to the choice of the teacher.
00:35:30
Speaker
For example, many teachers do not allow kids to retake assessments, take late work, et cetera, claiming it's not possible, it's not fair, and the list goes on.
00:35:38
Speaker
But I think differently.
00:35:40
Speaker
I think it is most certainly possible.
00:35:43
Speaker
I think we can make those decisions in our classrooms.
00:35:45
Speaker
I think we have to make those decisions in our classrooms in spite of what's on the outside.
00:35:51
Speaker
If learning and growth are paramount, I can think of no reason not to give kids another go.
00:35:56
Speaker
Why wouldn't we?
00:35:57
Speaker
It's a part of learning.
00:35:58
Speaker
And when we, out of one side of our mouths, tell kids to embrace failure and mistakes, when you were talking about this earlier, it made me think of this, and have growth mindsets and that the struggle is real.
00:36:07
Speaker
And then on the other side of our mouths, we tell them, sorry, you get one shot.
00:36:11
Speaker
I think that that creates a distrust and trust is a must for relationships.
00:36:15
Speaker
You know, and I think, you know, in a sense, that kind of encapsulates all the things that are outside my classroom that I can't control, where it creates this conflict, if you will.
00:36:26
Speaker
And I think sometimes within that conflict, it's hard to reconcile things.
00:36:30
Speaker
But I still argue that as classroom teachers, you know, we have a great deal of autonomy.
00:36:34
Speaker
And I think we can, you know,
00:36:36
Speaker
for lack of a better way to say it, kind of go rogue in our classrooms and do the things that matters, you know, despite some of the pressures from the outside.
00:36:44
Speaker
You know, this in Washington State, at least, you know, this movement started 15 or 16 years ago.
00:36:50
Speaker
And I've yet to see the black helicopters kind of swoop in and go to school, you know.
00:36:55
Speaker
And again, maybe it's happening differently in different states.
00:36:58
Speaker
But, you know, part of me, I was thinking about this earlier today, part of me just wants like an entire class, like the entire sophomore class to say, you know what, we're not taking the test this year.
00:37:06
Speaker
you know, and to see what the state and the school would really do.
00:37:09
Speaker
I mean, they're really not going to graduate that many kids.
00:37:12
Speaker
You know, I don't know.
00:37:13
Speaker
I think short of that, Chris, some kind of, you know, revolution, I just think we're going to be having this conversation about how do we reconcile this.
00:37:21
Speaker
But I think as teachers, if you try to say that you can't make kid-centered decisions in your classroom because of the things that are on the outside,
00:37:31
Speaker
I don't think you're telling the whole story to kids.
00:37:33
Speaker
And I think that that presents itself eventually.
00:37:35
Speaker
And I think that affects the relationships, you know, that we have with our kiddos.
00:37:40
Speaker
You know, the whole growth mindset thing drives me crazy.
00:37:42
Speaker
I mean, I think it's a wonderful idea.
00:37:43
Speaker
And I work on it with my kids.
00:37:44
Speaker
But, you know, you teach high school, right?
00:37:48
Speaker
Yes.
00:37:48
Speaker
Yep.
00:37:49
Speaker
Yes.
00:37:49
Speaker
And so does Michael.
00:37:50
Speaker
And so, um, you know, by the time the kids get to us, they have fixed mindsets, you know, I'm sure Michael has the, you know, kids hate reading or kids hate writing.
00:37:58
Speaker
Um, and I don't know exactly where they would fall with you.
00:38:00
Speaker
Um, you know, but they, they learned that they didn't enter school, hating reading, right.
00:38:04
Speaker
And they learned that, and they got that fixed mindset.
00:38:06
Speaker
And so it's really hard for us to help them move beyond that by the time they get to us.
00:38:11
Speaker
But I think we can do it.
00:38:12
Speaker
And I think we have to do it by making things possible.
00:38:14
Speaker
You know, I, it's a choice and I believe in possibility and I choose possibility.
00:38:18
Speaker
And I think in my experience, it makes all the difference.
00:38:21
Speaker
And as far as the standardized testing goes, um, and I even wrote it in the poem a little bit, let's, let's just do our best to spite them.
00:38:26
Speaker
And, you know, my kids are already off to a good start.
00:38:28
Speaker
I'm getting scores back and they've done well.
00:38:30
Speaker
And, you know, but again, that kind of goes back to my, if I win, I lose, if I lose, I win situation, um, that I wrote about on, on Friday, you know, and, and I don't know, the whole thing just, just drives me absolutely, absolutely bonkers.
00:38:42
Speaker
I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
00:38:43
Speaker
So,
00:38:44
Speaker
We actually, well, I wrote something, I think this was last week or maybe it was a couple weeks ago, and it was basically this idea about teaching to get fired.
00:38:52
Speaker
This idea that you shouldn't sacrifice your principles that you know are correct just because you want to be safe in your employment.
00:39:02
Speaker
Depending on where you're teaching, some schools are not going to be okay with you even just not teaching the worksheets that they give you for that day.
00:39:12
Speaker
I mean, there are schools around here in Columbus that have not only standardized content, but standardized material.
00:39:19
Speaker
As in, you're expected to go in that day, teach that exact lesson and hand it out to everyone and just do it.
00:39:25
Speaker
And that's what you do every single day.
00:39:28
Speaker
And that school that is kind of famous or infamous for that around here also has the highest state test scores in the state of Ohio.
00:39:34
Speaker
Sure, sure.
00:39:35
Speaker
For them, that feels like a major accomplishment, and it's almost prestigious, actually, for teachers to go there.
00:39:41
Speaker
However, obviously, we're not seeing those kids to go on do great, amazing things.
00:39:48
Speaker
Obviously, some of them do, but I don't think they're correlated.
00:39:51
Speaker
I don't either.
Reforming Traditional Education Systems
00:39:52
Speaker
So the question I have for you, I guess this is twofold.
00:39:56
Speaker
One would be...
00:39:58
Speaker
Do you think that teachers should be seeking out employment opportunities that kind of embrace them as progressive educators?
00:40:06
Speaker
Or do you think it's enough or if it's a good strategy to try to stay where they're at and kind of help students as much as they can?
00:40:13
Speaker
Basically, they make more of a change if they were to kind of form a tribe, if you will.
00:40:20
Speaker
Or would they make more of a change just trying to do their best with what they're given?
00:40:26
Speaker
Well, I think that's a great question.
00:40:29
Speaker
Of course, I would want to be surrounded by like-minded progressive educators.
00:40:35
Speaker
But I think if I'm honest, I would rather be in a place where I'm causing a disruption, if you will, to the status quo.
00:40:43
Speaker
I feel like I just think, Chris, we can make more of a difference here.
00:40:47
Speaker
I'm afraid that we'd go off and we just create our own little island.
00:40:50
Speaker
And I worry about all those kids who would be unable to visit our islands, if you will, and what they would be, what they would be left to.
00:40:56
Speaker
And so while that is appealing to me, I feel like, you know, it's kind of my calling to be that one who's kind of fighting against the status quo.
00:41:05
Speaker
And, you know, it's really interesting that you, you said something about like teaching to not get fired or, you know, whatever you wrote about here just recently.
00:41:12
Speaker
I've been thinking about that a lot.
00:41:13
Speaker
You know, I've got 22 years of stellar education,
00:41:16
Speaker
recommendations, you know, and, and I think about these, these moments as I move ahead and as I do more risky, you know, revolutionary things, just like, I don't think they're going to fire me, you know?
00:41:30
Speaker
And I'm not going to, I'm not going to look to get fired, but I, you know, you said something that resonates with these, like, like we have to be true to our principles.
00:41:38
Speaker
And, you know, I've taught 10th grade out here for, for, for 15 years since I've been back here at Cheney.
00:41:45
Speaker
And I, in 10th grade is the, where the kids have to pass the state assessment.
00:41:49
Speaker
And I just begun to wonder, it's like, do they really want me to be the guy who's teaching the majority of the kids?
00:41:54
Speaker
I mean, we've always had great test scores.
00:41:57
Speaker
Um, but I just don't believe in it anymore.
00:41:59
Speaker
You know, I used to try to sell it when I was younger and didn't know better.
00:42:03
Speaker
And I, and I kind of just latched onto this idea that it's our kids reality.
00:42:06
Speaker
And so I'm going to help them with that reality as best I can, but I no longer want it to be the reality.
00:42:11
Speaker
You know, I want to fight against that.
00:42:14
Speaker
You know, and, and that's again, kind of putting me in that hard place where I reconcile that.
00:42:18
Speaker
And, you know, I don't know, it'll be interesting to see, to see where we go.
00:42:23
Speaker
And if I stay at 10th grade I'm just not sure that the district, you know, because our, you know, you know, as well as I do, our scores get published in the paper, you know, in Washington, they go on our school report card, you know, they're at the center of our, our professional learning community work.
00:42:36
Speaker
I mean, yes, we look to multiple measures, but you know, as well as I do at the end of the day,
00:42:42
Speaker
the data that's going to matter most is the state testing data, you know, and I feel like I should be able to challenge that with the data that I have collected from my classroom, you know, when and if a kid finds himself in a position where maybe he didn't pass the state assessment, but yet in my classroom, I have deemed that his work is worthy of meeting standard and moving on, you know, but I don't think we get that opportunity.
Socioeconomic Factors and Educational Outcomes
00:43:07
Speaker
And I think we pay a lot of lip service to all these multiple majors, but at the end of the day,
00:43:11
Speaker
he gets funneled down to the, to the state assessment, you know, which I think is unfortunate.
00:43:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:16
Speaker
It's also, you know, I'm going to stay and disrupt the public school.
00:43:20
Speaker
I think that would be the path I would choose, though.
00:43:24
Speaker
I would love to be around like-minded progressives.
00:43:26
Speaker
So I think, so, I mean, I teach American history for half the year that we're semester based and I probably reach on a good year, 50% of the content.
00:43:38
Speaker
The other 50% pretty well.
00:43:41
Speaker
And our students actually perform, not that I care, but they do perform better on the standardized test.
00:43:46
Speaker
And we're not taking in the best and brightest kids.
00:43:48
Speaker
We're taking in anyone who wants to come.
00:43:50
Speaker
So I don't even know.
00:43:54
Speaker
And actually, there's research that shows this.
00:43:56
Speaker
doubling down on preparing for these standardized tests doesn't actually even increase necessarily their learning capability to do these state tests because logical reasoning or whatever skill is being assessed by these standardized tests is something that's more about just being able to read and write very well.
00:44:14
Speaker
And a lot of that comes down not necessarily to what the school is doing, but it comes down to the
00:44:20
Speaker
I guess more to your zip code.
00:44:22
Speaker
It's down to what resources you had available to you when you were younger.
00:44:25
Speaker
It comes down to, do you have a supportive household at home?
00:44:28
Speaker
Do you have enough money to get by?
00:44:30
Speaker
Like, are you stressed out about other things?
00:44:32
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many other things that that kind of build into this.
00:44:36
Speaker
And conversely, if you're a student that is very well off, a lot of times those are the students that are pressured to get higher grades and actually don't critically think as much.
00:44:45
Speaker
There's a reason why a lot of business owners tend to be from the lower to middle class, because those are the people that tend to have the kind of the perfect balance between structure and unstructure.
00:44:58
Speaker
Right, right.
00:44:59
Speaker
So let's move on to a different question.
00:45:00
Speaker
This is something that relates, but I'm really curious about this one because I have a lot of stories.
00:45:07
Speaker
Do you ever find that other staff at your school, or if you don't want to trash talk your peers, maybe a conference you've been to, wherever you've been, that people have kind of distanced themselves from you or labeled you because of how you believe about student relationships or progressive education?
00:45:25
Speaker
So
00:45:26
Speaker
something that I hear a lot is, oh, you're the easy teacher or the weird teacher.
00:45:31
Speaker
You're like the really out there, quote unquote, creative teacher.
00:45:35
Speaker
So therefore, you know, maybe students tend to hang out in your room.
00:45:39
Speaker
Maybe they want to be in there at lunch.
00:45:41
Speaker
Maybe you're the ones, the first one that they say something's wrong.
00:45:44
Speaker
And like you talk to the guidance counselor and people are like, well, why is that guy talking to his kids so much?
00:45:48
Speaker
That kind of thing.
00:45:50
Speaker
Do you ever find yourself in that situation?
00:45:52
Speaker
Like, are you ever painted as like the weird guy, if you will?
00:45:56
Speaker
Every day for 22 years.
00:45:58
Speaker
All right.
00:45:59
Speaker
Well, you know, it's a sticky question.
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah, I have been that guy.
00:46:03
Speaker
I am that guy.
00:46:04
Speaker
And I suspect, you know, Chris, I'll be that guy always.
00:46:07
Speaker
You know, and for me, it's like I've run the full gamut, I think, from, you know, annoyance to people feeling like that to, you know, suspecting on some level that maybe it's professional jealousy or, you know, whatever.
00:46:21
Speaker
I don't know.
00:46:22
Speaker
I mean, who knows where those folks are always coming from.
00:46:25
Speaker
Um, but you know, at the end of the day, I believe in what I'm doing.
00:46:30
Speaker
Um, and, um, so much so that, that I have a literally an open door policy.
00:46:36
Speaker
Um, you know, I never teach with my door closed.
00:46:37
Speaker
I have nothing to hide.
00:46:39
Speaker
Um, and yet I, a lot of these teachers who criticize me tend to be the ones who close their door.
00:46:43
Speaker
And I'm not saying that every teacher who closes his door is, is hiding something, but, um, man, I'm an open book and, uh, you know, I invite parents to my class.
00:46:52
Speaker
I invite other teachers to my class.
00:46:55
Speaker
I just want somebody to come, you know, sit in a desk in my room for a day, for a week.
00:46:59
Speaker
And, you know, before you decide whether I'm the easy teacher, before you, you know, unfairly come up with a reason for why the kids like me.
00:47:08
Speaker
There's a reason for kids like me.
00:47:10
Speaker
I work really hard to get to know them and to establish relationships with them.
00:47:16
Speaker
And what I have with them is real.
00:47:18
Speaker
And, you know, what's interesting about that is I don't have exclusive rights to that.
00:47:21
Speaker
Every teacher can do that.
00:47:23
Speaker
You know, and so I've always found it funny that those who, those who criticize my having a relationship with kids, I mean, they can do the exact same stuff, you know, and, and have those relationships and those connections with their kids.
00:47:35
Speaker
But for some reason they choose not to.
00:47:37
Speaker
And, you know, um, I, I'm not sure why.
00:47:40
Speaker
And, and I kind of wear, I kind of wear being the, the, the weird guy, the, the, you know, the, um, uh, the guy who's always kind of pushing the edges is, is a little bit of a badge of honor, you know?
00:47:51
Speaker
Um, if, if, if people were saying, well, he's fallen in line and he's conforming and he's doing things as I do, that's just not who I am.
00:47:58
Speaker
You know, I wouldn't feel like I was being true to myself.
00:48:01
Speaker
So when I hear, you know, and the kids talk to me, you know, they tell me what the teachers say about me and, and, and, um, in our class and stuff.
00:48:08
Speaker
Uh, but you know, if they weren't saying something that I'd be worried.
00:48:14
Speaker
So I embrace it.
00:48:15
Speaker
I kind of gotten to the point where I embrace it.
00:48:17
Speaker
You know, it's like, thank you.
00:48:18
Speaker
you know, and, and I don't think we need to turn it into a, and I'm, I know you're not suggesting this, but like you even said, like, how can we change this into more of a positive behavior?
Balancing Passion and Student Needs
00:48:27
Speaker
And I just think we have to, we have to work with each other, you know, and I think there's something to be gained from those, those of us who were out here on the edge, you know, and I think it's unfortunate that more people aren't, aren't drawn or aren't drawn to that.
00:48:41
Speaker
I think it's really bad.
00:48:42
Speaker
So I feel personally like,
00:48:45
Speaker
It's usually one, the major thing that I see more so than not is that it's teachers that went into education not to educate, but because they really like their content.
00:48:55
Speaker
And there's definitely something to be said about someone who's very passionate about their subject and they inspire people to do that subject, et cetera.
00:49:01
Speaker
However, I hesitate saying this, but I sometimes feel like teachers that are incredibly passionate about their subject area are more about themselves and less about their students.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah, I'm at the center of the room.
00:49:13
Speaker
I'm very amazing at math.
00:49:15
Speaker
Look at all these crazy things I can teach.
00:49:18
Speaker
I want to inspire you to follow me, which is a great talent to have.
00:49:22
Speaker
But they seem that time.
00:49:24
Speaker
Is that something that we necessarily need for high school or something that we need for a college professor where you're choosing to take that class?
00:49:29
Speaker
That's something you want to learn more about.
00:49:31
Speaker
And I'm not I.
00:49:33
Speaker
That's not to disparage against, like, I know that someone's, like, read, like, Teach Like a Pirate.
00:49:37
Speaker
That is a major theme of that book.
00:49:40
Speaker
It's all about passion and dedication.
00:49:42
Speaker
Sometimes I feel like teachers that focus so much on delivering their content very well miss the fact that it's really not about the content.
00:49:50
Speaker
I've said it before, like, we've said it before, like, at least, like, five times during this discussion.
00:49:54
Speaker
Content doesn't come first.
00:49:56
Speaker
Content is something that comes later on once a student actually trusts you, and you're expected to have a student trust you to actually deliver them real information in a very short period of time relative to the grand scheme of their lives.
00:50:09
Speaker
So this idea that we're going to inspire someone to become a great reader or writer seems like it's not going to hit as many students if we're just super passionate about writing as if...
00:50:21
Speaker
As much as if we were to just talk to all of them, get to know them, be very friendly, teach empathetically towards them so that we understand where they're coming from.
00:50:30
Speaker
We try to integrate then writing and reading, for example, into their lives and show it how they can help them.
00:50:36
Speaker
And they'll probably be more inspired that way, I would assume.
00:50:40
Speaker
I mean, it's all about more just what's the best way to possibly educate people.
00:50:45
Speaker
not what is the content that I'm obsessed with.
00:50:48
Speaker
And typically to me, the question to ask is, why did you become a teacher?
00:50:53
Speaker
And you give them the choice between content or education.
00:50:56
Speaker
Any teacher that says content, sadly, might have chosen the wrong field.
00:51:00
Speaker
And I don't like to tell people like you can't do something because that would be very authoritative and beyond my pay grade nor my place.
00:51:10
Speaker
However, that being said, someone who is purely focused on content and education, I don't feel like will ever be happy.
00:51:17
Speaker
They may as well just become a professor.
00:51:19
Speaker
And then we could we could even get into the fact that possibly professors need to change the way that they're teaching as well to people that are in their classrooms
Actionable Steps for Educators
00:51:26
Speaker
in higher ed.
00:51:26
Speaker
But that's.
00:51:27
Speaker
higher ed's a whole other beast i don't even yeah i don't even want to get get close to close to that world because that's a that's a that's a giant one we could have a five-hour podcast just on that uh so um for for time purposes let's build right into this one because this might be a this might be a long one depending on where we're at so um
00:51:47
Speaker
The final question I'm about to ask is a question we've asked every single guest, I think, unless we missed one.
00:51:51
Speaker
What is one step that you think that teachers, administrators, or a school in general could feasibly take tomorrow?
00:51:58
Speaker
So obviously, get rid of standardized testing would be an unfeasible suggestion.
00:52:02
Speaker
What's something that really, like, everyone or one person could do to feasibly improve tomorrow the lives of their students?
00:52:11
Speaker
I have two, Chris.
00:52:13
Speaker
And there's something, literally, that I think
00:52:17
Speaker
anyone can do tomorrow.
00:52:19
Speaker
So for all, I think we, I think they should ask how they want people to feel in their classroom and their building or in their district.
00:52:27
Speaker
I think they should make a list and I think they should start basing their decisions from there.
00:52:30
Speaker
You know, if you think back to my, my list that I gave you for what I, what I share with my kids, you know it would really be no different for a school perhaps to say, I want kids in the school to feel empowered.
00:52:41
Speaker
I want them to feel connected, valued, respected, challenged, and supported.
00:52:45
Speaker
And imagine, you know, I'm not a big fan of mission statements either.
00:52:48
Speaker
But imagine if that was your touchstone, if that was your standard that you set for yourself, as I do in my classroom.
00:52:55
Speaker
You know, and so now when you're having a discussion with a kid, maybe about misbehavior, you know, and we're all in agreement that in this building here, we want kids, we want people to feel respected.
00:53:07
Speaker
That's where you begin that conversation.
00:53:09
Speaker
Sure.
00:53:11
Speaker
You know, and so I just think there's nothing magic there.
00:53:14
Speaker
It's just about asking the question about how you want kids to feel.
00:53:18
Speaker
I mean, I think it could go beyond that.
00:53:20
Speaker
I think it could go to community, to town, to city, to state.
00:53:23
Speaker
I just think that it's just a way for us to connect on a human level.
Building Classroom Community through Emotions
00:53:27
Speaker
And I think anybody and everybody can do it.
00:53:30
Speaker
And then for teachers, you know, and I thought maybe we'd talk about this earlier, but we didn't.
00:53:35
Speaker
So I do something that's called smiles and frowns.
00:53:38
Speaker
I begin...
00:53:39
Speaker
every period, every day with it.
00:53:40
Speaker
And we take five minutes and we go around the room and we share a smile and or a frown.
00:53:46
Speaker
Kids always have the right to pass, of course.
00:53:50
Speaker
But, you know, I have done it now for 143 days.
00:53:54
Speaker
I will continue to do it.
00:53:57
Speaker
And for me, it's been the very best instructional, maybe classroom decision I have ever made.
00:54:02
Speaker
You know, we've learned a lot of things this year, but I think the most important thing we've learned is each other.
00:54:07
Speaker
Um, my kids love it.
00:54:09
Speaker
Uh, you know, they, they hold me accountable.
00:54:12
Speaker
Um, even when I have a sub in the room, um, they do it on their own, um, because it's a way that we, we connect.
00:54:18
Speaker
And so, um, I just think it's a great way for any teacher to start a period and I'm never not going to do it.
00:54:23
Speaker
I'm going to do it for the rest of my career.
00:54:25
Speaker
So could you elaborate more on what that is?
00:54:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:30
Speaker
So, um, we just call it smiles and pounds, um, up on my board.
00:54:33
Speaker
I put, um,
00:54:34
Speaker
today I want you to feel connected.
00:54:36
Speaker
And I put smiles and frowns next to that.
00:54:38
Speaker
And so we just go around the room and each kid shares.
00:54:42
Speaker
So a kid might say, you know, I aced the math test today, or I scored a goal in soccer last night, or my dog passed away last evening, you know?
00:54:50
Speaker
And so they're just sharing something from their lives that either has made them smile or happier than a positive, or maybe a frown, something that's made them sad, something that's bummed them out.
00:55:00
Speaker
You know, a frown, they just failed the math test the period before and
00:55:05
Speaker
Or I failed the science test and everything that he told us was that he taught us wasn't on the test.
00:55:09
Speaker
I mean, you know, those situations and I, and it just gives me and the kids an opportunity to learn and know each other.
00:55:16
Speaker
And I think that that's our basis for our relationships.
00:55:19
Speaker
And it takes five minutes.
00:55:20
Speaker
You know, I think about all the other silly things that we do in our classrooms.
00:55:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:25
Speaker
I'm taking a thousand minutes of instructional time away this year.
00:55:28
Speaker
But I have no regrets.
00:55:30
Speaker
And I think it has, has made for the very best year.
00:55:33
Speaker
Um,
00:55:34
Speaker
I've had in 22 years.
00:55:35
Speaker
I mean, I know my kids, man.
00:55:37
Speaker
I love my kids.
00:55:38
Speaker
That's incredible.
00:55:39
Speaker
You know, and one for me too, like when I was talking earlier about walking and talking and I don't want to be an icebreaker teacher.
00:55:45
Speaker
If I'm going to say relationships are important, then I have to make them important.
00:55:48
Speaker
I have to make them a priority.
00:55:49
Speaker
And I do that every single day, no matter what, even if it's a test date, we still take those first five minutes.
00:55:55
Speaker
And we connect, you know, we touch base.
00:55:58
Speaker
I love that idea.
00:55:59
Speaker
That kind of structural piece is something that any place could build upon, which is having emotional structure for students, not necessarily regimented.
00:56:08
Speaker
academics.
00:56:09
Speaker
It's just having an actual plan in place to connect socially with kids beyond just talking to them because, you know, sometimes, you know, you might not, one kid might not talk as much, you know, there's always, you know, the quieter kids and stuff like that.
00:56:23
Speaker
And that kind of opens up a way to make that a little more uniform to everyone.
00:56:28
Speaker
I like that a lot.
00:56:29
Speaker
You know, and again, I think it's really important that we allow kids to pass because again, it needs to come from a place of commitment, not compliance.
00:56:37
Speaker
And so
00:56:38
Speaker
You know, I have some kids who pass every single time, but they listen attentively as all the other kids share.
00:56:43
Speaker
And so it's really about us, our learning each other as a community.
00:56:46
Speaker
I mean, it's pretty dang cool.
00:56:48
Speaker
And you have a classroom full of kids clapping because Elijah has, he's a gay young man in my sixth grade class, clapping because he has his first date.
00:56:57
Speaker
I mean, that's pretty dang cool.
00:56:58
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:56:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:59
Speaker
I mean, what better way to teach tolerance or just to teach empathy or even honestly, like teach normalizing failure, any of your
00:57:07
Speaker
any of your soft skills, because even though those kids might pass every single time, you know for a fact that they are relating to many of the things that are being said, whether that be positive or negative.
00:57:17
Speaker
And it's helping them kind of cope with either good feelings or bad feelings.
00:57:20
Speaker
And there is no, literally not one standard that says anything about emotional intelligence amongst our kids.
00:57:27
Speaker
Even though I think most people would say those are the most important things.
00:57:32
Speaker
And I think that's what most parents would want for their children as well.
00:57:35
Speaker
I mean, that's why would they not?
00:57:37
Speaker
At least that's the case.
00:57:39
Speaker
Well, yeah, you know, and I think about my own kids, man, I just want my kids.
00:57:44
Speaker
I want my own personal kids, my children.
00:57:46
Speaker
I want them to be happy at school.
00:57:48
Speaker
That's what I want.
00:57:48
Speaker
First and foremost, I want them to be happy, you know, and I want them to feel like they belong.
00:57:53
Speaker
I want them to feel like they connect.
00:57:54
Speaker
They're connected.
00:57:55
Speaker
You know, the content stuff will come and I just we teach kids.
00:58:01
Speaker
And you know that I just, you know, the content is secondary.
00:58:05
Speaker
I mean, we teach kids with content.
00:58:06
Speaker
We don't teach content to
Conclusion and Further Engagement
00:58:08
Speaker
kids.
00:58:08
Speaker
I think we have to reframe.
00:58:10
Speaker
I think the easiest way to understand that is that go to any kindergarten, first grade classroom and talk to the kids about, you know, what they're learning and the kids are into it.
00:58:20
Speaker
you'll never get more clarifying questions or just random interest questions from a group of kids when you say, does anyone have any questions?
00:58:28
Speaker
They all raise their hands because they're going nuts because they're
00:58:31
Speaker
they're actually learning and they want to be there and they're having fun and people naturally want to learn.
00:58:36
Speaker
In my opinion, schooling kills that love, sadly.
00:58:40
Speaker
And the reason why, especially as a high school, as a high school instructors, we run into an issue where it's kind of like they're at the end of the machine.
00:58:48
Speaker
They're, they're, they're kind of winding down.
00:58:51
Speaker
It's kind of our goal to try to reverse that track.
00:58:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:54
Speaker
You know, and it's hard, it's hard, you know, because they don't trust anymore.
00:58:58
Speaker
They played the game for too long.
00:59:00
Speaker
And so,
00:59:01
Speaker
Even we who are progressive and we try new things out, you know, it takes a long time for the kids to kind of give us that trust that, you know, the year I gave all my kids A's, they were like, what, really?
00:59:12
Speaker
And it took them a long time to get there because they've been so conditioned for so many years.
00:59:19
Speaker
But, you know, I don't know, small steps.
00:59:21
Speaker
We'll make it happen here someday.
00:59:28
Speaker
Hope you enjoyed this podcast.
00:59:30
Speaker
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00:59:32
Speaker
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00:59:39
Speaker
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00:59:46
Speaker
Thanks again.