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70. 'In The Court Of The Crimson King' - King Crimson (1969)
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'21st Century Progressive Band'
In 1969, a new Progressive Rock band stormed onto the scene. King Crimson made several appearances throughout the year and exposed themselves to large, attentive and accepting audiences with big, impactful live shows.
Following this success came an album that would pioneer, innovate and lay down the foundations for Progressive Rock. ‘In The Court Of The Crimson King’ showed to the world exactly what this fresh, new Progressive Rock was and how you could take all the external elements and amalgamate them into a singular, connected, seamless piece of art.
Is ‘In The Court Of The Crimson King’ the definitive Prog Rock album? We discuss!
Episode Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2vAkHj1QJRrTg76aqA3TiI?si=7b47f002f8f84f17
LONG LIVE ROCK ‘N’ ROLL
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Transcript
Introduction to King Crimson's Impact
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Long Live Rock and Roll Podcast. In 1969, a new progressive rock band stormed onto the scene. King Crimson made several appearances throughout the year and exposed themselves to large, attentive and accepting audiences with big, impactful live shows. Following this success came an album that would pioneer, innovate and lay down the foundations for progressive rock.
00:00:36
Speaker
In the court of the Crimson King, show to the world exactly what this fresh, new progressive rock sound was and how you could take all the external elements and amalgamate them into a singular, connected, seamless piece of art. Is in the court of the Crimson King, the definitive prog rock album?
Band Dynamics and Key Figures
00:00:53
Speaker
Joining me to discuss this is my co-host, Mr. Felipe Amorim. How are you doing, man? Very well, thank you, yeah. There we go, that could sort of set the scene and I'm ready to dive right into you.
00:01:05
Speaker
I like this new intro, that's great. I thought, yeah, glad to hear it. Right, well in keeping with the fashion, if it's not obvious, I'll show you because I love this album so much, I've got the vinyl. Oh, you've got the actual record. I do, yeah. So I've got it in my hands, it's very nice. So yeah, if it's not obvious what we're doing this week, we are doing In the Court of the Crimson King by the legendary King Crimson.
00:01:29
Speaker
So a quick few, a few quick fire facts for you. So it was released the 10th of October, 1969, recorded in only five weeks between the 7th of July and the 13th of August, 1969 in Wessex in London. The genre is obviously progressive rock. It lasts just under 44 minutes. The producers were King Crimson themselves and the labels associated this were Ireland, Atlantic and EG.
00:01:56
Speaker
So that's the basic info. Felipe, do you want to kick us off, man? Anything you want to kick off with? Well, let's talk about the two guys who I have on my background here. If you're watching this, instead of just listening. They look a little similar to the two guys in my background. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Lars got the album cover with the schizoid man and I've got Robert Fripp and Greg Lake.
00:02:22
Speaker
So some people know Greg Lake from Emerson Lake and Palmer, of course, and he's also a prolific solo career. And for me, he's one of, if I had to choose, I don't like doing those top five lists or something, but if I have to choose the top five, or even maybe my top three singers of all time, rock singers,
00:02:41
Speaker
I think he would be on the list. He is just such a phenomenal singer and guitar player and bass player. He was one of the greatest. So those two guys, they started King Crimson and they knew each other really well. They grew up together. I don't know if you know about this and they went to the same guitar teacher. So basically the interesting thing about them, they knew everything that the other one knew.
00:03:08
Speaker
You know that joke when people are like, oh, between me and my brother, we know every fact in the world. And you say, OK, well, what's the answer to this? Oh, my brother knows that one. It's like John and Greg, isn't it?
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So basically, so basically, they've learned the same things, like technically, the same things from the same teacher. And they used to go to each other's houses and practice together. So basically, so they were, Greg Lake said it was like a mirror, musically speaking. But when you see them on stage performing, and when they, you know, write and compose it,
00:03:45
Speaker
they're completely different musicians, which is amazing, isn't it? Like how music is used as a form of expression of your personalities, and even if you learn the same scales, chords, and melodies, two musicians would create completely different pieces of music. But yeah, and they worked really well together for just one album, isn't it? That's what I find amazing about this
Insights from King Crimson's Documentary
00:04:10
Speaker
album. It's just, it's the
00:04:12
Speaker
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I watched or bought a documentary actually just for this episode, which I thought it was going to be a in the court of the Crimson King making of, but it was just that the movie was called in the court of the Crimson King, but it was just the 50 year journey of King Crimson. Unfortunately, unfortunately, it wasn't specific to this album, but it did give me a lot of useful information. And that wasn't it wasn't it wasn't like the whole journey. It was definitely then
00:04:40
Speaker
I think it was around 2020, they filmed it. And it was just such an incredible insight to hear Robert Fripp's words about the band because I'd go as far as to say that he has hated most of the process. And I don't know if you're familiar with this or with his attitude or he, I literally wrote down, the interviewer said to him, how was it being in King Crimson? And he goes from 1969 to 2013,
00:05:09
Speaker
wretched and he seemed to hate it he didn't seem to get on with anyone in the band so it's got a long story short even the pizza they went back and they interviewed the old guys as well like the older members they interviewed Ian McDonald, Peter Sinfield, Greg Lake wasn't it but obviously he passed away didn't he
00:05:32
Speaker
So they interviewed the older members of the band and they were all saying that Robert needed control. It felt like Robert needed to be in control. And it was more like, there was one guy, I can't remember who he was, but he said, I was really upset because I felt like I was joining Robert in a project. And in fact, he kicked me out and I was like, well, hold on, this is our project, isn't it? And he was like, nope. So it just seems like, you know, and this is no slight on Robert Fripp because I haven't done anywhere near enough research to get this information.
00:06:02
Speaker
Seems like Robert was the leader of this band from quite an early stage. Because yeah, you're right, Greg left after the first album and a couple of them did.
00:06:12
Speaker
After, so Giles and McDonald left. So we'll just go through the band members. So you've got Greg Lake on vocals and bass, Robert Fripp on guitars, Michael Giles in drums and percussion, Ian McDonald on sax, flute, clarinet, bass clarinet, melotron, harpsichord, piano, organ, vibraphone, backing vocals, et cetera. Jack of all trades, isn't it? Jack of all trades, yeah. So half the band left after
00:06:38
Speaker
the court of the Crimson King came out and I think Greg Lake must have left a bit after that anyway. Yeah I think he only did this album and I would argue that what makes this album special is him you know because obviously you have this band that lasted for ages and if I'm not wrong still active and but they only had one album with this
00:07:03
Speaker
terrific singer and bassist who is Greg Lake. Everything, man, everything about this lineup, I'm not sure we'll get into it, but the whole lineup's just phenomenal. But you're actually right, Greg Lake makes it. It's his soft voice, isn't it? Well, soft when it needs to be soft, isn't it? Exactly. He's so versatile as a singer. He can be really aggressive and really soft and he's got
00:07:31
Speaker
It's just perfect. Yeah. So just a bit of little bit of background.
Formation and Production Journey
00:07:36
Speaker
So the way this band came together is there was two groups. There was Giles, Giles and Fripp. That's one group. So I think that was Robert Fripp, Michael Giles and Michael Giles, his brother. I can't remember what his first name is, but they were a band.
00:07:48
Speaker
And then they also had the Creation, which was a band consisting of Ian McDonald and Peter Sinfield. They were the bands before King Crimson and in a turn of luck, they came together and the right members left their respective bands and became King Crimson. Now in early 69, they met with the producer, Tony Clark, ready to do the first album, but it really didn't work out, which is how King Crimson ended up producing this album themselves.
00:08:16
Speaker
And I think that's a pretty good event that's happened because the production of this album is great and you kind of imagine that everything is the way that someone like Greg Lake or Robert Fripp would have wanted it to be.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think that it's an album led by the musicians, not by a label or producer. So the musical freedom they needed to create their own art was there. So it's like no one but the band is deciding the direction of the album. And this, I mean, if you want to play proud music,
00:08:56
Speaker
I imagine it's really hard to produce a prog band, right, with loads of ideas and different time signatures and all that stuff the prog bands do. It's not that easy to keep them under control, and it's actually a good thing that they were not under control, you know. Yeah, kind of let them loose a bit, go free. Yeah, yeah.
Peter Sinfield's Unique Role
00:09:15
Speaker
And the interesting thing is that Pete Sinfield, who was the lyricist, he was doing lights, he was the light engineer for the band. Can I interrupt you and do something? Yeah.
00:09:25
Speaker
Time for a segment. How rock and roll is that? So here's my question to you. How rock and roll is it having a band member whose job is solely to provide lyrics to the songs and lighting for the stage show?
00:09:41
Speaker
I mean, it's such a unique thing, but because like, is not a guy who, well, most people wouldn't know about him, isn't it? It's like, I'll give it a solid 65 for that. Okay, there we go, 65. There's more rock and roll things, but that is actually really rock and roll. On that note, I'm gonna start, I should have done this at the beginning of the show, so I need a drink, so. Oh, the soundtrack to the Long Live Rock and Roll podcast, a can of beer popping open.
00:10:07
Speaker
Um, enjoy that, sir. Enjoy that. Yeah. So, um, Peter Simfield, he, he, in this movie I watched, he labeled himself as the jester of the band, which you might initially take as a bit of an insult because a jester is like, well, the jester performs for the royalty. But he said he's someone else. He called himself the jester and someone else called him the magic fairy of King Crimson, which I think, and the, the vibe I got from this is that Peter really tied things together for the band.
00:10:37
Speaker
Now, four people in the band is not easy because you can quite easily split into two groups of two. And in the terms of arguments and debates, you can butt heads. When there's three or five, it's easy because it's two versus one, three versus two. Might not always end amicably, you know, the arguments and discussions to be had might not always become, but at least you reach a decided vote where it's like, right, you're outnumbered. But when it's equal, it's a bit harder. And so I think Peter's kind of found himself
00:11:06
Speaker
as the, I don't want to, I don't want to give the impression that I know this for fact, like he's the deciding vote of King Crimson, but I think he just settled into that role as lyricist, as lighting operator, and just the general guy with the band, who the band could be open with ideas with and share the music. Yeah, imagine someone who is kind of a member of the band, but is not playing with the band. Oh God. Am I the Zeppelin guy?
00:11:35
Speaker
with Peter Grant. He wasn't involved with the music part of it, isn't he? He's still in the business, but he was so crucial to the band, to the band's success. He was like a member of the band. That's what I mean with Peter here. Yeah, in this case, it's like he is actively working with the band by providing lyrics, which are obviously really important, but he is not performing with the band. So it's an interesting
00:12:01
Speaker
There's an interesting role, isn't it? And the lyrics are really abstract. They really like the kind of stuff you expect for a prog band. He was really good at that. The lyrics are not too long, you know, it leaves a lot of room for instrumental. That's what I was going to say. Most songs, you only got like one verse and one chorus and then repeated and then that's normally it for the song, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Excellent.
00:12:23
Speaker
How do you go about
Song Progression and Analysis
00:12:25
Speaker
this? There's only five songs. Do you want to do each of them? We can pretty much talk about all of them. Yeah, one thing I find interesting. There's an interesting thing, because it kicks off with almost like a hard rock song, right? Yeah, I know you got something to say about that one. Just before we actually talk about the song, and then songs two and three, I Talk To The Wind and Epidaph,
00:12:52
Speaker
they are they are not really like heavy or intense so just so the the whole vibe goes down and it's it's it becomes kind of sad in my opinion and only by the last song you have that punch in your face again so it's like the album's got two heavy numbers at the beginning and at the end so that's what you have it's almost like the opposite of Animals by Pink Floyd
00:13:19
Speaker
You've got the short song at the start and the short song at the end and then three big ones in the middle. Here, you've got the biggest songs at the start and the end and then the sort of softer ones in the middle.
00:13:29
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Not only softer, but they're also like less complex if you compare it to the, so the first and the last ones, in my opinion, proper prog, and it really hits you and makes you think, well, this is, how can someone possibly play that? Sounds difficult to play a clever, you know, complex, and then it goes more into a mellow kind of vibe throughout most of the album. So, yeah.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah, no, I completely agree. Let's kick off then with track one 21st Century Schizoid Man, about seven and a half minutes in length. And actually, from our episode on Emerson Lake and Palmer on YouTube, someone commented and said that this song, or in their opinion, this song was arguably the first ever prog metal song.
00:14:16
Speaker
which, you know, although metal didn't even start until a year later, you know, we were still seeing the early signs of it coming from bands like Zeppelin and their heavy guitars. This song as well, you know, giving Sabbath the idea of how to really just get over that final line to metal. But you can hear it here, man. Intense, heavy riff, riffs, dissonant guitar sounds.
00:14:37
Speaker
the heavy distorted vocals. And even if you take away those, you've got such aggressive saxophone playing, complex drums, thunderous bass lines and the shouted vocals. It's quite a statement to make on a prog rock album.
00:14:53
Speaker
Yeah, it is. And it's a really intense start for an album. Because it's not a song, it's not like a happy song, it's not a sad song. For me, I don't know if I can find a word for that. Did you know the only word I can give you, I think is aggressive.
00:15:12
Speaker
aggressive. I agree with you. You're not happy, not sad. It's just aggressive and in your face, isn't it? So, yeah. So if you consider that there was a 1969 that's really heavy for the time, especially the vocals, I would say, because there's effects and stuff, but also the way Drag Lake Singing is quite aggressive. So, yeah, it's really close to heavy metal for the standards of the time. So I would say that is, yeah, it is a prog metal song. I agree with that.
00:15:41
Speaker
The fact that this song's got more drum fills than grooves, so basically Michael Giles isn't it, is just like filling every gap with really really creative phrases and
00:15:57
Speaker
but his phrasing is quite groovy because it's really tight because we have a lot of drummers at that time, guys like Ginger Baker and Keith Moon and B Ward who were the
00:16:13
Speaker
heavy-hitting drummers, but they have this kind of sloppy, jazzy feel when they swing all the time. And Gyles is steady, solid, every note is exactly where it should be, which is a different kind of taste, let's put it like that. It's not saying that the other guys or the other guys are some of the greatest as well, just saying, I'm a
00:16:38
Speaker
vibe and swing when you're playing fills. But with him it's more like really, really precise. And Greg Blake actually said that he was a master of coming up with really complicated drum fills. And he did that sometimes for fun to make it impossible for Greg Blake to find where the first beat of the bar is.
00:17:00
Speaker
Just such a progressive rock musician thing to do, isn't it? Exactly. Let's make it so hard and not even my bandmates know how to play this. This is the audition for the band. You've got to find the one. Yeah, exactly. What would you like about the song?
00:17:15
Speaker
I like the heaviness of it and for me it's like they bring the riff as a theme, so it happens all the time. The riff comes in and then there's vocals, something else, and then the riff again. So I like the way they play with being loud and then
00:17:34
Speaker
slightly more empty and then loud again. They do that quite a lot throughout the album. It's one of my points of this song. Big shifts in dynamics and tempos throughout. They're always changing on. They're going really loud, really soft, then really fast, a bit slower. They actually do a thing where they do some hits and then it gets faster, don't they? It's like...
00:18:00
Speaker
That sort of stuff you expect to hear perfectly done in electronic music, but they've enabled it here. Yes, exactly. If a 1969 man is perfect. Yeah, there's a bit at the end of the song, well, the second half of the song, where they all play the same phrase. After the solo, yeah. After the solo, and it's like... Unbelievable. It's so unbelievably tight, because nowadays you record something, someone is just lightly off, you go on a computer and fix it. But 1969, you've got the band performing live in studio,
00:18:28
Speaker
And you just have to nail it. Also, you're wasting tape if you don't get it right. And that's a lot of money. So you can see that they played live together and they were well rehearsed. That song actually, I think they kind of showed their musicianship straight away on the first song. Well, you've even in the solo, it's very jazzy and jazz fusion-y, isn't it? It's what we call for listeners or viewers who aren't sure.
00:18:56
Speaker
Jazz fusion is what you'd call, is what, I mean, tell me if you have a different definition, but for me, jazz fusion is jazz music played on rock instruments.
00:19:06
Speaker
Well, basically, well, I'll say that most people would describe it as jazz plus anything else, right? Okay, you say like Afro-Cuban jazz is very specific, but apart from that, what you have is the point where you mix funk or rock or anything else,
00:19:30
Speaker
like in terms of instruments or riffs or grooves, you put that into jazz, that's what fusion. That's fair, that's fair. Well, by definition, it's, you know, but I agree with you that if you play a jazzy phrase on a distorted guitar, so that instrument doesn't belong to jazz traditionally. So when you escape it from that traditional approach, playing something that is jazzy, but it's actually rock,
00:19:59
Speaker
So he can only be called Fusion, I would say. Yeah, that's pretty nice. But yeah, anyway, really jazzy in the middle, wasn't it? With the solos and the notes they were playing, the scales, the phrases, that was very much jazzy. Really reminded me, again, if any listeners, any new listeners and viewers, if you check the show note below, you're going to have a description of the episode, as well as a playlist, a companion playlist that we encourage you to listen to before or alongside this episode. And it's got all the songs from the album, plus any songs we mention in there. So go down, check it out and listen along.
00:20:30
Speaker
I'm going to add in a couple of songs by Frank Zappa, one called Cosmic Debris, which really reminds me of the saxophone and the hard rock vibe of this song, reminds me of the 21st century one, and Gumbo Variations from Frank Zappa's Hot Rats album, which is actually the same year as this one. Just the way that the violin and the saxophone solos, they're not controlled
00:20:52
Speaker
It's not like, right, I've got to play this scale perfectly. Go and listen to gumbo variations. And it's 16 minutes of a violin jam and a saxophone jam, where the saxophone is playing some of the horrible noises you'd ever hear. But because of the vibe of the jam, it's just like you get the feeling of you're like, no, carry on, mate. Don't stop because this sounds awesome. So go and check them out for yourselves. They'll be in the playlist. Anything else about 21st century, Skitswood, man?
00:21:20
Speaker
Uh, not now. Oh, okay. Great. Great. All right. Well, let's move on to track two.
Emotional and Lyrical Depth
00:21:25
Speaker
Um, I talked to the wind, beautiful, beautiful, intricate acoustic guitar with Greg lakes, super soft vocals, um, harmonized, if you like, not, not literally, but I mean, for me in harmony with melodic flute, um, and a beautiful melotron that adds this kind of dreamlike feeling to the track. I mean, this is my favorite on the album. What about you?
00:21:49
Speaker
Well, it's not my favorite, but it sounds like the slowest and the quietest song in the album today. And I think it is a really, really good contrast coming from Schizoid Man. And yeah, it's a beautiful piece of music and I think the vocals are just brilliant. Yeah. And again, it's got that
00:22:13
Speaker
like 1969 vibe, isn't it? You've got to listen to this. Imagine that you were in England in 1969, so that would bring the right feel to it, I guess. So yeah, it's just a really, really beautiful piece of music. I think what it does so well is it kind of avoids that standard structure that you're used to with songs, with verse, chorus, verse, chorus, solo, chorus, bridge, outro, you know,
00:22:43
Speaker
It just kind of feels like it blows freely throughout and it's like you're almost not sure where it's going to take you, even though the different sections aren't dramatic.
00:22:54
Speaker
You're still there when it changes and you're like, oh, that's different, oh, that's odd. It's more subtle than in the first song is that it changes him. It flows into the next part. Perfectly. Yeah. And the flute solo at the end is just unbelievable. And again, this is what is progressive. We're seeing unusual instruments like a classical flute coming in.
00:23:14
Speaker
and playing on rock music. And it really reminded me of A Pillow of Winds by Pink Floyd from the med lounge. Both songs have the word wind in, so that's a little thing. And the interesting thing about Ian McDonald is he didn't have any kind of rock music background.
00:23:33
Speaker
at all. He was like a kind of a military brass section. That explains it, that explains it. And yeah so Greg Lake said that this is one of the best things about him, he came with a completely different approach, like you can tell, so it really adds some texture to the music that he wouldn't have otherwise. It's just such a different feeling compared to track one, isn't it? It's almost like chalk and cheese night and day, it's
00:24:03
Speaker
question if it was the same album. So hold on, the Spotify just screwed me over. Have they sent me to a different album? No, the second song of the same album. But yeah, do you want to kick us off on Epitaph? Yes, that's my favorite.
00:24:18
Speaker
Interesting. I love it. Yeah, I love all of it. And I think I'll tell you why, because I kind of, at some point in my life, I had enough of prog rock, because I listened to a lot of it when I was 16, 17. And then I started playing music, playing bands and, well,
00:24:40
Speaker
because well I didn't start playing the 60s so there's no place where I can play proper or I can make any money so I never played that kind of stuff with bands and so I got into more like simple forms of music and I've learned to enjoy it so sometimes when I listen to something that's longer than 10 minutes now I think well when I was a teenager I wouldn't listen to anything that wasn't at least 15
00:25:10
Speaker
five minutes. That's rubbish. But now how are you meant to follow the song? I was judged a song by the length. I would look at the back of the CDs and say, oh, I got four minute songs. I'm going to listen to this anyway. But but then having a sort of listening to this album again, I'm like, wow, there's there's some really
00:25:35
Speaker
intelligent life forms in Pro-Rock, isn't it? So basically, because we think of Pro-Rock as self-indulgent all the time, which it is most of the time. And this album didn't feel like that to me. And this song is specifically Epitaph is a song that is like,
00:25:56
Speaker
it makes it kind of makes you feel sad and it's again a ballad it's much slower than on the first and the last song on the album the lyrics are beautiful and it's got a sort of a groove to it so you have the drummer I've just mentioned who's technically amazing but it's keeping it really simple because that's
00:26:22
Speaker
This is great points you're making, bro, because I mean, a lot of a lot of what you're saying, you might you might hear it again in my monologue at the end. But I'm agreeing with you on everything. Epitaph is like it's for me, the first half of it is like a soft rock song. And I mean, super soft. But then as you go through it and as it develops, it gets so much more technical. And the production is so intricate that to hear all the layers of everything that goes on is amazing.
00:26:50
Speaker
The second half of it is so much more progressive and experimental in terms of your sound, the structure, the the orchestration. But I mean, for me, the interplay between Fripp's guitar and McDonald's Mellotron. It's almost like it's the future and the past. You've got the past with the acoustic guitar, like that's where music has come from. If you've got the future in the Mellotron, that's where music is going. You know, the more soft sounding electronic sound.
00:27:19
Speaker
But yeah, what else have I got here? Lush orchestration, haunting melodies and big dynamic shifts again. A very, very lovely and complex song because the arrangement literally is just showing off how good these guys are and how good their compositional skills are, but they're not showing off. As you said, it is all for the song.
00:27:43
Speaker
And maybe unlike most prog rock songs, this one started from the lyrics. It started as a poem. You can tell, isn't it? It's a very poetic lyric. And so, yeah, Pete Seinfeld said that he came up with a poem, but then this one is more of a collaboration. The other guy started adding parts and he said the most Greg-ish part of the song was, but I fear tomorrow I'll be crying. So that line,
00:28:12
Speaker
which is a beautiful line and just did so well with the song that wasn't written by B. Teamfield, that was written by Greg Lake. He put that one line there and it almost makes you cry when he sings it. It's just beautiful. I agree with you. Yeah, it's the last slope of the song, isn't it? Yeah. They repeat it throughout the outro and it's lovely. OK, moving on to Moonshald, the fourth song. Now, I thought this was quite similar to Epitaph. Yeah.
00:28:38
Speaker
but far more ambient and atmospheric. I feel like a lot more emphasis was placed on technology and soundscapes and avant-garde atmosphere noises. Do you know what I mean? Do you agree with that? Yeah, the second half of it is, it's experimental really. There's not a, like,
00:29:07
Speaker
single second of a composition on the second half of the song it's just all of it improvised sounds a lot like free jazz to me at some point and it's just like it sounds like they're just hitting things and making some noise well do you know what can i just respond to that and say that i agree i agreed with you on my first listen of it and maybe even my second listen a bit but as i listen to it again and again you're right there is a lot of just noise put in percussion here and then it doesn't come again and
00:29:36
Speaker
One thing that stands out to me is the guitar. In that second section, that sort of, I don't know if you call it a guitar solo, but the ambient section where all that noise starts from, the guitar phrases are quite jazzy. Even if he just plays one chord, it's jazzy. And I'm here thinking, well,
00:29:59
Speaker
I'm familiar with random noises in songs, okay? For listeners and viewers, I listen to a lot of Frank Zappa, so there will be a song that has the most beautiful, soulful groove going on, and then suddenly there'll be a burp. So that is just Frank Zappa, and he was influenced by the composer Edgar Varese, who was, again, very, I can't remember what they call that, style of classical music, modern or whatever, modern classical. But anyway, it's very avant-garde, it's very out there, it's unorthodox, it's unusual. So I'm used to hearing noises throughout
00:30:30
Speaker
And there wasn't a pattern with this one, you're right, there were just random noises, but I still felt like we were getting a bit of communication between the instruments. The guitar does something and then something, the percussion just answers back with it.
00:30:44
Speaker
And it didn't bother me as much as I did in the first time. Yeah, they are interacting. It's not like when you say random, it is at some point, yeah, it feels like, well, they're just hitting things and whatever. But yeah, someone reacts. Yeah, it's like a try to create the language. And it's a little bit similar to writing music.
00:31:11
Speaker
with your bandmates instead of just writing a song on your own and then bringing it to the band. So they're kind of creating all the spots, which again is something that I really miss in modern music, like people just jamming along and coming up with stuff. It doesn't necessarily have to be
00:31:33
Speaker
beautiful or precise or correct, but it's rock and roll, right? I just feel like, you know, like I said, I've listened to a lot of Zapper and a lot of avant-garde stuff where there are just random hits in. I feel like there was more method to this madness than some of the stuff I've spoken about before. Like other examples, it felt like
00:31:56
Speaker
Instead of we're going 100% avant-garde with random hit squeaks here and there, it felt like, okay, let's do 80% avant-garde, but we're going to keep some musicality and we're going to keep the guitar playing jazzy phrases. We want to keep this doing a little rhythm here. It just felt like it was thought about rather than random.
00:32:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that they probably rehearsed some form of it before they went to record. Or they agree to, when we go to this point, we're going to start jamming or creating on the spot.
00:32:31
Speaker
And to make it clear, the two parts of the song are called the dream and the illusion. So you have two parts with two different names and it's interesting because like the previous song Epidaph has got two parts as well called
00:32:48
Speaker
The title of the song says, including March for no reason and tomorrow and tomorrow, but you can't really notice any change that makes you think, oh, this is another part of the song. In Epitaph. Yeah, in Epitaph. Agreed. So someone, I found some information about this, apparently it was a suggestion by the
00:33:12
Speaker
advanced management that you could make more royalties by having more song inside of song which I'm not quite sure doesn't sound doesn't sound accurate to me but it could have been just a joke but you can't really tell the different parts whilst so maybe that's the
00:33:30
Speaker
what is that's what is brilliant about this song because you're coming from um two slow songs and you need to somehow build up for an explosive ending yeah right and it so the the previous two songs they the change the changes in the songs they just flow you go from one part into another it's very subtle with this one it's more like we finish this um how can i put it
00:33:59
Speaker
well-written piece of music with all the parts really well explained. And then out of the blue, the second half is completely different. So I think it's, yeah, it's a great way of connecting the, let's put it, the quiet part of the album to the end. That's a great point. And I didn't even think about it because there is a hecticness about the second half of Moonchild, although it might be organized as we've alluded to, might, we're not sure.
00:34:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's a very good point. And so then that takes us into the final song of the album, which by the way, I lied.
The Majestic Finale
00:34:39
Speaker
I Talk to the Wind is my second favorite song on the album because The Court of the Crimson King is my favorite song. It might actually be my favorite prog-rock song of all time. I first heard it when I first watched the movie Children of Men and it plays at the start of that.
00:34:54
Speaker
And I think maybe I was with my brother and he told me about the song where he shazammed it or something. I just listened to it. And when that chorus comes in, just so soft and haunting. In the court of the creams and then the snare and then it just hits you like a fucking brick wall, doesn't it? It is, it really hits you. And there's the kind of choir style vocals as well, the harmonies. And yeah, it's
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's epic. Here's what I've got. Majestic, anthemic. Anthemic. Yeah. It's a very spinal tap.
00:35:34
Speaker
What a song, though. I mean, you've got everything in here. You've got the rock. You've got some folk. You've got the classical elements as well. I thought the middle section was so beautifully classical, where you had that flute just sort of tying it over to the next section. But the rest of the rest of the instruments worked around the flute. This is so obviously a rock song. Yet in that middle section, you've got the flute leading the way with the rock instruments just dropping back and keeping the rhythm and everything. Just amazing.
00:36:02
Speaker
For me it takes the best elements of the whole album, the classical, the ambience, the soft vocals and the heavy rock, but fashions it into like an amazing end to a progressive rock album. What do you think about this song? I think I really love the contrast between the intense instrumental parts and the fairly quiet sections that give space to
00:36:28
Speaker
the vocals as we said this happens all along the album but it's really like specifically beautiful in this song and the coda the flute at the very end I didn't see that coming it was like wow you know sorry when you think they put everything into a song that is specific a bit at the end is yeah so it's I find a
00:36:59
Speaker
it for me. You don't know what's going to happen but it doesn't sound like a bunch of bits and pieces put together. It does sound like an intelligent composition and it sounds like they know exactly what they're doing there and I love that. I love the fact that they planned this one really well.
00:37:19
Speaker
There's almost, there's little tweaks in there, like the outro that the, right. So you've got the chorus, whichever one knows, but then at the outro, they take the exact same rhythm. They copy and paste the chorus from earlier in the song to the end, but they remove the vocals, but there's just something different about it. It's almost got like a bit of positivity, a bit of hope, a bit of charm. I don't, Felipe, I haven't even analysed what they've done.
00:37:44
Speaker
I don't know if they've changed the chord, if they've changed one note, but something is different from the choruses at the start of the song to the choruses at the end of the song. Apart from the, there's no vocals. There's just something so hopeful about it. And I think of a whole album through the lyrics, through the sound of the songs, through the mood of the songs, take you through quite a sad journey, like you said. And I just feel like all the sadness
00:38:15
Speaker
is kind of almost paid off at the end, just with that, the positivity and the hopefulness that I hear in the outro of the Court of the Crimson King. And for me, it just makes the album even better than I thought it was at the start. Tiny details like this that progressive fans think about. Yeah, exactly. And it comes just as you kind of think, and this is getting too slow,
00:38:49
Speaker
It's a punch in her face again, just like the beginning. So I find quite hard to find the perfect song to end an album and I think
00:39:02
Speaker
uh most albums we've covered they they have great like opening tracks yeah and i think i think people think a lot about the opening track you have to it's the first impression you have to especially at the time i'm going to put your your record
00:39:21
Speaker
And as soon as it starts playing, you want to cause a good impression from the beginning, so people don't just give up, and then they don't listen to the rest of it. Now, it's fairly easy to just say, you know, well, the last song can be whatever. It doesn't have to cause a huge impact on anyone, because if you have this kind of mind-blowing start for an album,
00:39:48
Speaker
That, to be fair, if the album only had one good song, any of those, and it was all crap, just one good song would be enough to make it... A decent enough album. Yeah, but then every single song has its role in the album. And the last one, yeah, is as good as the first one, which I find normally really hard to find. I've got a question written here.
00:40:15
Speaker
Is this one of the best closing tracks of all time? So you've answered that. That's awesome. We've done the five tracks and obviously they're long in length. We know they're progressive. There are quite a lot of changes within the songs. But the album itself is not long. No, no, it's not just under 44 minutes.
Influence on Progressive Rock
00:40:35
Speaker
So I really want to talk about now, as I alluded to it at the intro, the introduction of the episode, but what I think we need to talk about is how important this album is to progressive rock, because for real, I mean we weren't there in 1969, but from everything we've read and all the research we've done, this seems like the beginning for progressive rock. Here's some quotes, so from Paul Stump- They never got much better than that.
00:41:01
Speaker
It's really interesting you say that because I've got something to say about that in my monologue, but I'd like to ask you as well. Quote from Paul Stump who wrote the history of progressive rock. If progressive rock as a discrete genre can be said to have had a starting point, then this is probably it. Classic rock said, it blew off the doors of musical convention and cemented these quintessentially British innovators place in rock history for all of time.
00:41:30
Speaker
All music said as if somehow prophetic King Crimson projected a darker and edgier brand of post psychedelic rock. And I just wanna talk about how important this album is because as we said, this is essentially the starting place, the foundation, Bay Zero of prog rock. And the way they did it is very simple. They took their rock music and they added the unusual elements, jazz, avant garde,
00:41:58
Speaker
classical sections, classical melodies, symphonic instrumentation, electronic ambience, longer songs, unconventional time signatures, unconventional song structures. And that's what they did. But Felipe, they didn't do three of those things and mix it with rock. They did everything. They just took it all. Yeah. So if you listen to that first track, that is
00:42:26
Speaker
But maybe it's the best song to be used as an example of what prog rock is. If someone asks you, like, what's prog rock? So listen to 21st Century's Kizod Man. Very good point. Yeah, I agree. Got everything in it. And it's almost as heavy as hard rock or heavy metal song. It really pushed the boundaries of contemporary music. Because you've got to think, two years before,
00:42:54
Speaker
Beatles did Sgt Pepper. It's all about sleeping and it's so weird thinking about this. It's almost different worlds, isn't it? Yeah. But two years difference. Yeah. I still yeah. The music has evolved so much at the time. Yeah, from 65 to 70. It's
00:43:13
Speaker
unrecognizable yeah it is and it's beautiful isn't it we don't get much of this nowadays no but when you think what the Beatles were doing in 67 with sergeant pepper people like my god this is different yeah two years later you get this yeah really pushing other i mean here's what i wrote in my notes this album is shocking yes yeah no definitely
00:43:32
Speaker
McDonald spent many hours overdubbing layers of melotron and his woodwind instruments to achieve the thick, lush, orchestrated sound they got.
Production Challenges and Innovations
00:43:40
Speaker
Now this was not easy in 1969 because you only, I think they were using an eight track tape, I think I read, but still four of those tracks as the guitar, bass, drums and vocals. So he only had four other tracks to do his classical stuff on. So what he did was he'd record his classical section on an eight track
00:44:00
Speaker
What do you want to call it? Condense it and export it if you like.
00:44:04
Speaker
Then he put, he'd use that as one of the eight tracks on the final thing. Four tracks into one track. And then yeah, eight tracks. Yeah. So he took eight tracks into one track, put it in as one of the main eight tracks. Um, which, you know, as you said, it was conventional. It was normal for the time, but I read it. It was, but it's like, Oh yeah. To nail it. There's a limitation that you need to work around it. And to nail it would be really hard. Wouldn't it? So I've absolutely smashed that.
00:44:32
Speaker
But culturally, I mean, this literally shaped the direction of progressive rock music. Everything that came after that was, it's a new title, it's a new, what am I trying to say? It's a flag in music history, this album. Do you think that's fair to say? It is fair to say, and I'm really happy that you chose this album. Me too. I had to listen to it again. Do you have anything else you want to talk about?
00:45:01
Speaker
Yeah, I have a short and tragic story about the album to share. So the album cover, I think it's a big part of what this album is, because again, I find that face kind of
00:45:21
Speaker
I don't know if it's shouting or laughing or whatever, but it is quite disturbing. And Robert Fripp actually said that the, that's the face of this gizoid man. So it says that they, he calls it like smiling face. I don't think it says smiling, but it says, if you ignore the mouth and look into the eyes, you see a great amount of sadness.
00:45:47
Speaker
Sorry, I'm going to interrupt you. I think, right, I read the same thing you've read.
Iconic Album Cover Story
00:45:53
Speaker
I think he's talking about the other guy, this guy. Oh, this guy. Yeah, so here's what I tried. So he said, oh, you're right, because that one is his mind. He said he said he said the outer vinyl. So the outer is 21st century skitsoid, man. When you open the vinyl, it's this guy. Right. And he said the inner, he said the inner guy says is King Crimson.
00:46:15
Speaker
And he's smiling, but he's sad. Yeah, because if you cover the mouth, let me try. There you go. If you cover the mouth, his eyes are sad. Yeah, such a sad thing. So yeah, sorry to interrupt you. That's the skitsoid man. So yeah, that's the skitsoid man. That's King Crimson.
00:46:32
Speaker
Oh, interesting. So the face of the schizoid man was based, so the artist, he was only 21 years old, Barry Godber. So he was looking at his own face in the mirror to take an idea and shape that face for the schizoid man.
00:46:53
Speaker
but the thing is he was friends with Pete Tingfield and they didn't realize until halfway through the album recording they needed a cover they were like oh my god we're gonna finish this album in a few days and we haven't got a cover and then Pete Tingfield said I know a guy who's a graphic designer he can do something for us
00:47:16
Speaker
young man he is really creative so okay ask him to design a few options for the album cover and bring it to us so he came with this package and with and the scissors and and and and he cut it open and that face just dropped and and and fell on the floor and they saw that face and and they said that's the schizoid man with one interesting thing the song has
00:47:47
Speaker
So the artist was commissioned to do a cover for the album but he didn't know the song that they thought was that face. So basically he was drawing this
00:48:02
Speaker
Man without knowing the song existed. The band had, they didn't have the chance to listen to the final song yet when he walked into the studio. And he cut the packet open and that thing dropped on the floor and they look at their face. That's it. That's the album cover. They knew it right then. Cause that's the Skizoid Man. And the tragedy is only three days after that, this young man, 21 years old, he's walking down the street and he has a heart attack and dies.
00:48:32
Speaker
So do you mean the man whose face that is or the artist? Well the artist, that's his own face. I mean it's not his own face but he looked at his own face as a model to start drawing it. So probably three days after. He died three days after
00:48:53
Speaker
after they received the final artwork from him. So that's his legacy. What a legacy to have because it is one of the most iconic album covers in rock music, isn't it? Can't I say all of music?
00:49:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's one of the most iconic album covers of all the time. And it's so disturbed. I can't stare at it for too long. It's such a beautiful piece of art. And Robert Fripp has the original painting. Yes, he did, because he was worried that it was sitting in the executive offices of the label. And he was worried that the way he said, when he went in for a meeting, he said the way the sun was hitting it, it's going to wear out. It's not going to be good. So he was like, can I take it back?
00:49:36
Speaker
But yeah, that album cover is just fantastic. It is amazing. Any other points? Any other things you want to touch on? No, I think that's it. Yeah, I think that's all right. Yeah, we've done quite a lot. So in terms of awards and stuff, Rolling Stone named this album the second greatest prog album of all time after Dark Side of the Moon. Which, do you know what, I feel like that's kind of appropriate
00:50:03
Speaker
What, because the best prog rock album of all time, I think most people would naturally float to Dark Side of the Moon. And I think when- You say it's the most popular, but I wouldn't say it's the best, right? Fair enough. That's interesting. Do you know what? Yeah. If I had to think about it, it might not be my answer. But I know what you mean. Yeah. But in the five year gap of Dark Side of the Moon coming out and Court of the Crimson King, you know, in that gap, it's brilliant to see how much it changed.
00:50:31
Speaker
But almost in terms of Dark Side of the Moon, how much more simplistic it went. When you listen to what happened in the early 70s from, yes, Genesis, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, stuff got pretty, as we like to say, wanky in certain places. But to hear Pink Floyd keep that essence. I'm almost looking at Dark Side of the Moon in a different light now.
00:50:53
Speaker
because I've heard how good the supposed first ever prog rock album was. I'm hearing more of a link between Dark Side of the Moon to this than one of those crazy Emerson, Lake and Palmer albums. And I'm not comparing, it's not one's better than the other. I'm just, I'm appreciating it more.
00:51:09
Speaker
But in the 1000 albums you have to hear before you die, Colin Larkin rated this number 193. So, they're the accolades. It didn't really, you know, critically, it did kind of well. There was a few people who didn't enjoy it. I haven't even looked into our album sales and stuff because I couldn't really find it in the immediate research I did. Which tells me, just like I'd expected, it's not an overly popular album to the mainstream.
00:51:35
Speaker
but rock fans and prog rock fans know this is the one, don't they? Yeah, do you think, I think I know the answer, do you think if someone who's not into all sorts of rock, whether let's say someone who's a heavy metal fan, would you still recommend this album? Yes, to put it short, because
00:52:01
Speaker
How can you not listen, if you're a heavy metal fan, let's just take that example, how can you not listen to 21st Century Schizoid Man and be like, oh my God, I can hear that the music I love, the heavy metal I love, I can hear it in this. And this was one year supposedly before metal even began. So yeah, I'd show this to anyone because I'd love to show this off. Songs like I Talk to the Wind,
00:52:25
Speaker
A lot of, I always think about my family because my family have such a diverse taste in music. You know, my sister, she loves musical, you know, musical theater. My auntie, she kind of loved, my auntie and uncle, they kind of love pop, but not always so poppy, you know, not like the radio pop, but popular music, especially popular rock bands. My dad likes the sort of old school rock bands. And I like imagining how they'd all react to an album.
00:52:52
Speaker
And I want to play, I talked to the wind, to the likes of my auntie and my sister. Cause I want to know how much they'd enjoy it. Because although it's a lot, it's six minutes. Okay. But it's all calm. It's all internet. It's all intricate. It's soft. There's nothing not to like. So yes, in answer, long, long answer to your short question. I would, I would show this to anyone. And I wouldn't with other albums we've done in the past. Some of the Prague albums are only for Prague fans, but there's definitely not. Oh, cool. There we go.
00:53:22
Speaker
How about your monologue? Let me do the monologue and then I'll ask you a question because I did have one more point to discuss. In the court of the Crimson King is a seamless amalgamation of everything we know and love about progressive rock rolled into one definitive piece of art.
00:53:41
Speaker
The album laid the foundations for Prague to come and did so in such a cohesive way in which everything feels so natural and so right but not overstating or overdoing the progressive points. You have the jazz elements in 21st century, lush classical orchestrations littered throughout but most prevalent in I Talk to the Wind and Epitaph, beautifully atmospheric ambience in Epitaph and Moonshield and unusual avant-garde passengers in Moonshield
00:54:08
Speaker
but all tied together with majestic, anthemic, impactful rock music, which is even more evident at the end of the album. The musicianship throughout this is impeccable, with thrips varying guitar tones and styles, lakes emotive vocals and driving bassline, McDonald's stunning orchestration, composition and arrangements, and Giles thumping, fill-littered drums, all joined together with Sinfield's thought-provoking, short but sweet lyrics.
00:54:37
Speaker
Musicianship, however, comes second to the songwriting and composition for this album, and this is where I feel Prague should aim to reach. Admittedly, I'm far from well-versed in Prague, but from what I've heard and what my main problem with Prague is, is that I hear a clear distinction between albums that write music for the sake of the complexity, intricacy and difficulty, and those who write it for the music. I understand that there are audiences for both,
00:55:03
Speaker
But for me, real progressive music is not needing to show off for it to be good and King Crimson established that with this album. I haven't even mentioned the fact that it is a debut album.
00:55:16
Speaker
No several attempts to get it right or several years needed to gel as a band. The talent these guys possess and their seeming professionalism to just form a band, get a fan base and write slash produce one of rock's best ever albums is a marvel to me and something that I don't feel gets spoken about enough. Massive credit to King Crimson for pulling this out of the bag so early in their career.
00:55:38
Speaker
it's almost impossible for me to think of another debut album that is a perfect sonic example of the music that it would go on to pioneer and innovate. I'd go as far as to say that this is the best prog rock album I've ever heard and the fact that, for me, I haven't heard any prog album that is better than this is a testament to how pioneering, innovative and incredible this album is and how immaculately King Crimson executed their debut release. Dare I say it, 10 out of 10,
00:56:08
Speaker
perfect, a landmark and genre defining album. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. I could have said it better. Thank you. Bit of a long one, but I thought I needed to get all the points in. So my question, and you alluded to earlier, and this is why I had a smile on my face. It's almost a bit insulting what I'm going to say. But you said it, so I'm in the clear. Yeah, blame it on me. I did. Yeah. I'm trying to phrase it in a polite way because
00:56:39
Speaker
is is this the best prog rock ever was and did anyone do you in your opinion do you think anyone improved on it because i don't i think you could claim that some albums that can be as good as this one in in many ways never better i i i wouldn't say there's a prog rock album that is like
00:57:03
Speaker
clearly better than this one. And you like Pro Gro quite a bit. I do. I listen to quite a lot of it. Well here's a question for the audience. Yeah I think this is
00:57:16
Speaker
It's got the perfect balance between melodies, lyrics, instrumentation. Heaviness as well. And the fact it was done right at the beginning. That's another. If you consider that no one has done anything like that up to this point in time, so that makes it even more impressive. Bro, like I said in the monologue, it's their debut album as well. It's still like they needed a few albums. Amazing.
00:57:44
Speaker
Question to the audience, the listeners and the viewers. Let us know, please, if you're watching this on YouTube, if you are, and I know we've got a lot of really hardcore progressive rock fans, because they have a commenting on all the Emerson, Lake and Palmer and Yes videos, we know you're there. Let us know what you think about this particular discussion point. Is this the birth of progressive rock as we know it? Question one. Is there an album
00:58:10
Speaker
that has matched this or got better than it, question two and question three, is it the best Prague ever was? Yeah, did Prague get any better after the first, if this is the first, did it get any better after the first Prague album? Also, can you hear the influences, you know, in other bands, which albums sound like this one or even
00:58:39
Speaker
remotely like, can you notice which bands were influenced by this album, not by the band itself, but by the album? There you go, there's your fourth question. So yeah, please let us know in the comments. All good, all done? Yes, all good. Fantastic. All right, let's wrap up then. Guys, thank you again for joining us for another episode of the Long Live Rock and Roll podcast. As we say every week, please help us out. And if you're watching on YouTube, hit like and subscribe so you stay up to date with all of our content.
00:59:09
Speaker
And if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, please just scroll down, give us a rating, give us a review, and it sends us up a chance to be seen by more appropriate people. So thanks again, and we'll see you next time. Yeah, thanks for being with us for another episode. Keep on rocking, everyone, and don't do anything else. And as usual, guys, you take care and long live. Rock and roll.