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Our Ruined Lives with Erina Baci II - Ep 47
270 Plays4 years ago
In this edition of Our Ruined Lives, we are pleased to have Erina Baci return to the Podcast. Erina first appeared on Episode 7, way back in October 2019. We begin the show by catching up with her on what she has been up to since she first appeared on the podcast. We then delve into a discussion on the importance of geography and resources to people in the past, modern geopolitics, and how modern issues affect our current understanding of the past. This leads us to discuss an upcoming Memorandum of Understanding between the US and Albania and the potential implications of the MoU for Balkan Cultural Preservation. We close out the episode with Erina serving up some awesome advice for future and current graduate students.
Erina's Literature Recommendations:
- Archaeological Guide of Kosova - Online PDF
- The Illyrians by John Wilks
- Evaluating social complexity and inequality in the Balkans between 6500 and 4200 BC by Marko Porčić (2019)
- Archaeology as Bearing Witness By Hauser et al. (2018)
Contact For Guest
- Erina's Instagram: @TheAlbanianArchaeologist
- Erina's Twitter: @TheAlbanianArch
- Erina's Blog: https://thealbanianarchaeologist.com/
Contact
- Email: alifeinruinspodcast@gmail.com
- Instagram: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Facebook: @alifeinruinspodcast
- Twitter: @alifeinruinspod
- Website: www.alifeinruins.com
Affiliates
Recommended
Transcript
Episode Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to episode 47 of a life ruins podcast. Re-investigate the careers of those living life in ruins. I'm your host Carlton Gover. And as always, I am joined by my co-host David Ian Howe and Connor Jonnan.
Arena Bachi's Academic Journey
00:00:25
Speaker
In this edition of our ruin lives, we are pleased to have Arena Bachi return to the podcast. Arena first appeared way back on episode seven, which was in October of 2019. Arena, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. How are you doing this evening?
00:00:40
Speaker
Thanks for having me back. I'm doing all right. Just, you know, live in that stay at home, academic life, virtual learning, like everyone else. It's a hoot. It's been a year. Yeah. A year and almost, it seems like a year since January already. So. I'd agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. You doing okay?
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I'm doing as well as I can. I think being an academic, especially at an institution like where I'm at in Michigan, I think it comes with a lot of privilege. You know, I have the chance to stay at home, to teach virtually, to learn virtually. So I'm making as much progress as I can towards my degree. So I think, yeah, I'm in a very good position relatively. And since we last had you on, were you just starting your PhD program or are you finishing up your master's?
00:01:28
Speaker
No, so I was new. I had just started my PhD then. So now I'm in my third year. I'm making progress towards candidacy. It's a long, long process, especially where at my program we have a lot of prerequisites that we need to kind of check off over the years. So yeah, I'm finishing up classes, trying to get my pre-doc paper done, working on my proposal, hopefully trying to advance the candidacy soon.
00:01:54
Speaker
I'm right there with you. I think we started at the same time and I'm right there working on my candidacy paperwork. Yeah, it's a slog. Feels like Omaha Beach in 1944 trying to get this thing done. It's definitely been a process, but I was kind of relating
PhD Challenges and Structure
00:02:10
Speaker
to that. What is your candidacy defense like in terms of, are you writing along paper?
00:02:15
Speaker
a couple short questions and multiple papers, or are they going to lock you in a room for 48 hours with a computer not hooked up to the internet and just have you free type something? Oh, no. No, that was a nightmare. That sounds terrible.
00:02:28
Speaker
something like that. But it's a long process. So the proposal is essentially you showing your committee that you have thought about the research that you want to do. So it involves doing a lot of background research. At Michigan, it usually involves having some data collected, which I don't have yet because I didn't get to go out into the field last year.
00:02:46
Speaker
It's usually a data-driven kind of presentation where you make an argument for the questions that you want to answer. Usually involves grounding your question in the theoretical paradigm. Many people present a model that they're going to try to use to test their hypotheses. So it's in a way, it's kind of like it's a research proposal in a way. And then once you're approved, you do have to pass it like an oral defense. It's kind of a closed door. You just talk to your committee and make sure that, you know, you've really thought about what you want to do.
00:03:16
Speaker
And once you're approved, you're good to go. Hopefully you have some funding and you got into the field, you collect your data, you go out for a few seasons and you come back and defend. That's the plan. Yeah, exactly.
00:03:29
Speaker
That's exciting. And so for those who aren't familiar with this process, the candidacy part, which you are at is after you do a bunch of prerequisites and obviously get into the school. So it goes like prereqs, candidacy, and then you're actually a PhD candidate. And then that last bit is just you're researching. Is that kind of in general how it goes? Yeah. And writing lots of grants and hoping you get that funding.
00:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think Carlton's been spending a little time doing that. How's the brain doing? I feel like grant writing turns your brain to mush. Yeah, I had a couple of that. And yes, between my first draft of my proposal and three or four scholarships and grants I'd apply for and working on another paper or two other papers, it's been
00:04:24
Speaker
It's been a lot and I'm taking this week. This is my, this is my chill week. I've been reading personal books and I'm just giving myself a break before continuing on. That sounds healthy. That's important. Healthy boundaries. A lot of M&Ms and personal books. Dude, it's the, it's the time. My favorite are the, I'm so sorry. I'm totally derailing this, but like the Easter M&Ms with all the pastel colors, I don't know why they taste differently, but they're my favorite, but
00:04:53
Speaker
Makes sense, we all got something like that. Definitely, I support whatever you gotta do.
Considering a PhD
00:04:59
Speaker
So recently, a follower of mine, it sounds so weird to say that, but someone who enjoys my Instagram messaged me and asked, can you give me some advice on a PhD program or what is that like? Because they had nothing, didn't know exactly what goes on.
00:05:17
Speaker
And in my master's, I guess I'll frame it this way. You go in and you formulate a thesis topic while you're doing your core classes and then you have some kind of exam and then you're ready to write your thesis and then you check with your advisor and you defend. And then you have some papers you have to sign with the dean and things like that. What is it like for a PhD? I know that's a loaded question, but do you guys know, can you boil that down if in a way?
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, that is a big question. I'll try my best. I want to start by first saying that I think it varies by department. That makes sense. Yeah. Different departments are just known for setting up their students for different things at Michigan. You know, we are, we do have reputation for being processual central. So one of the goals historically has been to kind of set our students up for thinking within a certain paradigm.
00:06:08
Speaker
So we're very theory heavy. Because of that, we are usually a very long program with all of the classes that you have to take in order to sort of fill that repertoire of the old school processional theory. We are kind of like changing things up a little, but I wanted to lead with where you go makes a really big impact on what to expect. But I think we kind of touched on it a little bit in my intro, but it's
00:06:31
Speaker
usually about three years. I don't know if it's the same for where you are, Carlton, of like classes and prereqs. And then once you kind of check those boxes, you do your proposal. And then afterwards, it can really take as long or as short as you can make it. Some people will need like two or three years of research. Some people can do it in shorter, but some people are in a program for about seven to eight years. So it's a long haul. So my advice to anyone considering a PhD would be like,
00:07:01
Speaker
make sure that you really love and are interested in what you want to do. Make sure you love with archeology, for example, seven or more years of your life that you're going to be committing into this. And I don't say this to deter anyone, of course, like obviously I'm here doing it, but make sure you're invested and make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. And, you know, go for it. If this is what you want to do, I think you should go for it, but just, you know, do your research. Okay. I think that's a, yeah, a good way to look at it.
00:07:28
Speaker
I think it's interesting that because people get out of their master's programs or their bachelor program and they're like, you know, staring there, like, what do I do now? And some people see as like the logical next step is just to continue doing it. But there's moments in there where you need to evaluate if this is what you want to do for the rest of your life and your career opportunities as part of that. So we are big advocates on this podcast as well for taking time to think about those things.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, for us, my program actually does not ... They prefer you to get your master's and PhD there. They're not really equipped for someone to come in with a master's. The amount of credits I was able to transfer was rather low, so I had to retake a bunch of classes.
00:08:14
Speaker
And then like an idiot, I took up two graduate certificate degrees, which was an additional 10 courses on top of my other course lab. But I was able to use, actually it was really nice that I was able to use some of my Wyoming credits that I couldn't transfer towards those other graduate certificates. So it kind of keeled out, but yeah, it was, I just finished up coursework last semester. So now I'm just trying to work on the disc. So I'm trying to get done. I was originally planning for three years, then COVID hit and now I'm expecting next
Changes in Academic Life
00:08:43
Speaker
year. So.
00:08:45
Speaker
We'll see, but it's definitely like Arena said, it's a process and you really got to plan it out and kind of have a game plan. But with that said, things do change. What I wanted to work on, my master's, what I thought I want to do for my PhD has definitely changed and allowing me to change departments gave me flexibility to do that.
00:09:03
Speaker
For sure. I also want to add 100% support people taking their own path. So your path is not going to be the same as our path. So just do what is right for you. Take time if you need to. And also not everybody needs a PhD. I think you can have a really fulfilling career in archaeology without one. So I think it's about finding what's right for you.
Alternative Career Paths
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah, I'd agree with that. And there's no pressure to even stay in the field if you don't want to. Like if you get your anthropology degree, there's no pressure to get a master's in it. There's no pressure to get a PhD in it. Like you could easily
00:09:39
Speaker
become a YouTuber and probably make way more money immediately. So either you could do that or become a construction worker, because you already know a construction site works pretty well from doing CRM. So you can do whatever you want. But if you do love it, I think Connor Rich had said this to me. Richard Adams will have him on the podcast here in a minute. But if something keeps you up at night with questions, you should get your PhD on that.
Impact of the Pandemic on Academia
00:10:07
Speaker
Obviously dogs keep me up at night, but my physical dog and like the theoretical idea of dogs, but yeah piggybacking out for that. And even if you start a program, you don't have to finish it. Don't feel pressured to, to finish it there. If it's not a fit for you, or if the professors aren't giving you the time of day, or if you're not agreeing with what it is or something in life happens, you know, don't,
00:10:33
Speaker
I think there's that option and it's unfortunately a war of attrition in grad school. You start out with so many of your cohort and you're like, okay, cool, we're all gonna graduate together. But then life happens and things happen. And that's perfectly okay. It doesn't mean that you're a failure or anything like that. It's just part of higher education, unfortunately.
00:10:57
Speaker
which we'll try to change, I hope. So we don't have to accept that. But I do agree. I think it's really important for people to do what is right for them on their timeline. If your interests change, so be it. Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:13
Speaker
What I was going to say there a minute ago is like on the subject of hopefully that will change. Like you guys go and like seeing my friends that are at Wyoming and other schools, like their posts and like calling me to be like, Hey, can we talk? And I'm like, yeah, just watching you guys in school through a pandemic and like everything that happened last year. And like a lot of my friends that had field research and like overseas, like obviously can't go. Like we're not allowed to leave the country. So like.
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah. It's like, you guys will be looked at as the generation of like anthropologists that just got beamed by life. Like it's just like, hopefully they'll go easy on you in the job market. But like, like hopefully a lot of people retire after this too. Cause it's, it's like a huge blow to like everyone in America. But like, yeah, you guys are in it. So I respect the hell out of you guys for doing like what you're doing. It's, it's the tough one. It wasn't a pandemic and I was in a masters. So.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, congrats. Yeah, we're trying. So I guess how do you guys keep saying this as part of this? You just keep working and hope that you'll get research money and things will open up. Is that kind of the mindset that you guys are taking at this point? Well, I mean, I think it just, it really varies. Like I can speak for myself. I think my approach has been just to take it a day at a time and just, you know, count my blessings, account for my privilege and just try to make the most of what I can.
00:12:42
Speaker
I haven't been able to go overseas to do my research. That is a huge blow, but I understand we're living through a global pandemic and people are losing their families. So in the grand scheme of things, things pan out differently. So it's just about a balance of also trying to stay mentally healthy. I'm GSI-ing, so I see my undergraduate students just really struggle with virtual learning. So it's hard for everybody.
00:13:07
Speaker
So I think balance is key, taking it a day at a time and just, you know, trying to think about, you know, the privileges and the blessings that we do have. Carlton, you can answer this too, I guess, but an arena, GSI, that's graduate student instruction. Yes, sir. Yeah.
00:13:22
Speaker
What is teaching like on this end? Cause obviously people listening are probably doing remote learning, but on your guy's end, I've heard a lot of like my employees, kids complain like, Oh my God, the teachers are really frustrating. But then I think about it, my friends are teachers and like, they're also frustrated. So like, like, and they're people too. They're also struggling with it. So like, I'm curious, like, what's your take on stuff?
00:13:48
Speaker
That's a big question. My take personally has been help the students as much as I can. Like deadlines are not a thing anymore. If a student emails me and they need an extension, I'm like, sure, you got to take the time you need. Send it to me when you can. And I think that's the approach a lot of people have taken, just this sort of more understanding that, you know,
00:14:07
Speaker
Yes, they're students, but they're also people. We have no idea what our students are dealing with behind the Zoom wall. They may have jobs, they may have responsibilities, they may have families, they may have health issues. They're dealing with COVID. They're dealing with so many things. My approach has been, I'm just going to try to be as supportive as I can of my students and hope that they learn something. But at the end of the day, I see
00:14:34
Speaker
one of my roles as their GSI is just like not to make their life more difficult about a deadline or an assignment. At the end of the day, I think their health, their mental health is worth more than a paper on the domestication of some plant. Like I care about archeology, but at the end of the day, like I think their mental health trumps the paper, so.
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah. I'm very much on the camp of no one should fail during a pandemic. No one should get lower than like a C plus has been my personal perspective. A lot of students here at Boulder take the intro to archeology because it is known as the fun class because we do have like usually a Mesolithic day where during the week they come out and we have a bunch of things set up. They're going to throw out laddles on the quad and they're going to make stone tools and set the lawn on fire.
00:15:22
Speaker
And it's usually a very hands-on class that people get to learn stuff. And through the pandemic, of course, all that's been canceled. And so I was at least in the opportunity, as we switched to fully remote, to be in a position to create all the new lectures that are based online. So they are very
00:15:43
Speaker
Media heavy, but not like National Geographic. And I've told this to like, a lot of David's ethno videos are in my lectures because they're fun. And they, they laugh and like Stefan Milo's and like other people, like the people that are coming and Raven and Tosh.
00:15:59
Speaker
I get young anthropologists who are good with YouTube and make the content fun. I'm just trying to make the class as fun as possible. One of their assignments is to make an Instagram post. Their final project is to make their own ancient recipe and do a two-page paper on why it's relevant and what this means about the civilization. We've transformed it to be more interactive in other ways. I always give my students, I've shortened my lectures,
00:16:26
Speaker
to, it is, okay, if anyone from CU Boulder admin is listening, it is a 50 minute lecture. However, I allow 15 minutes at the end for us to talk about whatever. I hit the main topics I'm supposed to and have an open space where they can ask questions about archeology that won't interrupt the lecture. And a lot of it goes into ancient aliens, but I have fun with it. So that's how I'm just trying to
00:16:51
Speaker
have fun as much as they're trying to learn has been my approach, because as Marina said, it's hard. And I always ask my students how they're doing, especially last semester is really rough. It's what it is. Yeah, it is what it is. I had some really nice reviews from some of my students last semester that kind of made me cry, because they were really kind. And this was the best class that I took last semester, because you made it so, and at least tried. And I'm not going to fail anyone during a pandemic.
00:17:19
Speaker
This sucks. Like they're having a bad time. I'm having a bad time, but I can at least try to make one 50 minute section a week. Not so bad. Thank you both for teaching and adapting during these times. And on that note, we're going to go to the next segment. So it's episode 47 of life ruins. We have arena Pachi here and we will catch you in segment two.
00:17:39
Speaker
Welcome back to the second segment of episode 47 of the Life Ruins Podcast. We're chatting with our friend, Arena Bachi. And last time we talked about how, you know, we're adapting to the times with COVID and how like, you know, their teaching methods and learning methods have to change with what's going on in our environment. So obviously environment plays a huge role in how humans behave. So kind of now going to have a discussion about how humans behaved in the past based on their environment.
Geography's Role in Archaeology
00:18:09
Speaker
So, I mean, I guess to start off, is geography something important to study as part of the past and how will you understand people in the past?
00:18:21
Speaker
Oh yeah, 100%. So I actually, I link geography with environment. For me, those two things are intertwined. So when we think about the past and we're like, when we're, you know, exploring our questions of, you know, humans in prehistory, it's important to understand that, you know, the national boundaries that we are very familiar with in maps did not exist, but the rivers and mountain ranges that we see and topographic maps did, and they played a huge role in the way that people interacted with their environments in the past.
00:18:49
Speaker
For example, how people may have been able to go through a mountain pass if it was accessible year-round, if it was not accessible during certain parts or during certain seasons. If a river was navigable, if people could use it to move between different areas. So I think environment and geography play a huge role. And I also think latitude plays a huge part. And for me, I also associate latitude with geography. For example,
00:19:17
Speaker
we can think about, for example, the Neolithic in Europe, and I'm going to talk about the Balkans because that's what I know better. But when people think about, for example, the Neolithic coming into Europe, they often think that people are bringing these domesticated plants and animals
00:19:33
Speaker
that everything is great and that these packages are just coming into the Balkans and everything is fine. People are going to become farmers. But what I think people fail to realize is that these domesticates are plants and animals and that they require certain environments and they require certain moisture levels and they're not great for all different kinds of levels of
00:19:55
Speaker
how cold an area might be, so having an understanding of the latitude helps understand why certain domesticates took hold in places like the Balkans when they did and why certain ones didn't. For example, on the Adriatic coast, which where Albania falls on, and certain parts of the Neolithic, you have like an influx of caprines like goats and sheep, and people may be wondering why are goats and sheep
00:20:17
Speaker
more preferred than cows, for example, which are more plentiful in the central Balkans. And of course, there's like, there may be lots of reasons why that is. It could be as simple as people aren't screening as well in different parts of the world, but it could also be that goats and sheep just do better in a mountainous environment than cows do. So I think having an understanding of geography helps us kind of understand the big questions that we ask of the past, like the spreading of the Neolithic into Europe and the Balkans and the cultural processes that came with it.
00:20:47
Speaker
It's a long-winded answer of saying yes. That's a genius answer. That's a really interesting answer about that because you're right. It brings up like climate and like not only climate but like fluctuating temperatures and then specific landscapes to that local area, not just that part of Europe and then like animal behavior in a sense too and like it
00:21:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's a lot of complex stuff you got to consider when you're looking at an area. I think it's interesting to think that I think in general, people think that, you know, like, like you were saying that the Neolithic just, everyone just went everywhere and it spread universally in the same way of advance. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it's, it's insanely complicated and it's, and that's because of all the things that you had mentioned, you know, latitude and things like that.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah, it just seems like the Paleolithic was a much simpler time. Now talking about what Irene is talking about, not only you have to worry about yourself and her family, but now you got to figure out what the animals are going to do. Now you have added responsibilities when before you can just hunt them down. And if the wheat will grow and if they'll get killed by early frost, there's just too much going on. Exactly. I think, let's see, was a goat herder, right? When he got frozen. And that was clearly a mountainous environment because he's in the Alps. So didn't bring cows up there with him.
00:22:10
Speaker
Cows are great, but I doubt they do as great in the mountains. Yeah. I mean, you'd be surprised. I've seen some cows in Kosovo and Albania up in the mountains, but it's rocky terrain. So it's hard. It's hard for me. So I can imagine. Yeah, absolutely. And there's like mountain bison out here in Wyoming and Colorado. So they live in these high altitude kind of areas, but surprising to me, you know, I have a hard time walking there as well.
Influence of Boundaries on Research
00:22:36
Speaker
And you mentioned like modern political boundaries don't necessarily translate in any way to the boundaries that were like back then. Whereas like obviously the Mississippi River is a pretty solid boundary in a lot of our states, but that's like a
00:22:51
Speaker
situational in the past like especially when we look at Paleo Indian points in the Americas we see a huge bias of them in the eastern United States and then Like it depending on which state you're in there's a lot more found in those areas and that's because that state might have more research put into Paleo Indian archaeology than others and there's just a lot more universities out east than there are out west so
00:23:18
Speaker
It definitely influences that, so. Or even conversely, right? Because in the West, there's far more public land than in the East and in the Central United States, right? Yeah. So even there's subdivisions of those political boundaries that affect sampling bias and our understanding. Because if you look at just like, you know, David, David's got me on a rabbit hole. No, go for it. You know, like the Mexican US border, like trying to understand Southwest cultural changes. It's hard because you have a view. Now you have a wall.
00:23:46
Speaker
a big, strong, beautiful wall, sorry, in between Mexico and the United States, which doesn't, no, it kind of hampens the ability to walk across the imaginary line in the sense that we say those people stay there, our people stay here to understand about prehistoric boundaries. You know, even in the United States, depending on what school you went to, we'll define what you call a certain cultural chronology. Because I think like if you're in Wyoming, there's one paleo-Indian point you call one thing, but everyone else calls it another. And we see that all the time.
00:24:16
Speaker
state boundaries. It's, it's very layered, but at a national level, you know, like in, in the, in the Balkans, is that how you pronounce it? I've always heard it as Balkans, like a bit sound. Hmm. I say, I say Balkans. I say Balkans too. I kind of just, maybe I'm not saying it the way that most people say it. I blame my Albanianness, but yeah, I say go with whatever's coming. I'll just, I'll just do Balkans. That's different. But you know, the, the Balkan states are, are much smaller and they've had a,
00:24:46
Speaker
far more fraught relationship with each other, especially in the past three decades now and going to four decades. So for someone that works for you, Irina, who works over there, how does that affect your research in that area and the understanding of other archaeologists working in the region?
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's a very big question, and I'll try my best to answer it succinctly. I think there's some themes that you mentioned in terms of how archaeology works here in the US that kind of carry over. So when you have these artificial boundaries drawn up, you have a disconnect and a conversation that is kind of, I guess, stopped. So there's no communication. So for example, you have archaeologists, local archaeologists that have been working in the Balkans for decades. They're doing good archaeology, but they're not communicating with each other.
00:25:37
Speaker
So the archaeologists that are working in Albania may not know as much about what's going on in other parts of the Balkans and vice versa. And I said Albania because I'm from Albania, so I don't want to lead the other way around. But that's the case for a lot of these nations in the Balkans.
00:25:51
Speaker
Just the other day, I was reading an article and it was like looking at something like Neolithic sites in the Balkans or it may have been something a little bit earlier. And I look at their map and I always get really frustrated when I look at people's maps because often there's no boundary for Kosovo, for example, or if there is, it's incorrect.
00:26:08
Speaker
but also like there's usually this gap where albania and kosova are as if there's nothing there and i'm like dude you're a senior geologist i know you know their sites dating to this period in albania and kosova but you're not representing them so it creates this kind of false narrative that there's
00:26:25
Speaker
not much going on in that part of the world and i think that's really inaccurate and i don't mean to be like calling people out i think it's sometimes a process of people just not being aware of each other's literature because it's in different languages when you are you know publishing in english and when you are writing these kind of overarching articles i think
00:26:46
Speaker
you need to do the diligence to kind of look at the record of the countries you say you're representing to make sure that you're representing them well and that you're accounting for the archaeology that's there. So as somebody that has some understanding of the archaeology of Albania, don't pretend to know it all.
00:27:03
Speaker
But if I'm reading an article, for example, I guess we'll stick with the Neolithic because that's what we started. If I'm reading an article that's presenting the Neolithic of the Balkans and I see the map and I know that there's a site in Albania that's really key for understanding the Neolithic in the Balkans and it's not mentioned or it's not presented, then that speaks to a broader issue and that's, I think, where geopolitics comes in in terms of understanding how
00:27:29
Speaker
knowledge is presented and how politics play a role in the way that we present knowledge if that makes sense. That was very well said and I think you don't get that complete picture by ignoring any data. So it's important to be able to
00:27:51
Speaker
and do that extra part of it. That's part of doing the research is putting in that time to do your background literature research. And that's a whole class in and of itself. So it's gotta be, it's really important. And I like that you brought up the examples there. It's super interesting to hear about that.
00:28:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, even going furthermore, like during the cold war, Soviet scientists and archeologists were not talking to Western scientists and archeologists and creating their own interpretations. And my only thing is that still goes on today with some places like the big country that jailed Winnie the Pooh.
00:28:30
Speaker
They have their own version of what the past is and where human evolution takes place. That's such a large landmass in that part of the world that has restricted people who are not nationals of that country to access that information.
00:28:49
Speaker
which was really brought to my eyes is in my cohort. So me and David went to school. He was in my cohort. His name was Zhao Kun and his first year in the master's program was his first year in the United States. He had just come, you know, his education from that country. And the stories he was telling us about how archeology is accomplished there and what he was learning here was just, it made me recognize a lot of like my
00:29:13
Speaker
academic privilege in my position, to hear some of the stories that he was talking about how people are getting censored and what they're allowed to say, more importantly, was the big one. He's like, I want to be able to say that. That was just a really eye-opening moment for me in recognizing where I get to go to school and what I'm allowed to say.
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really great point. I want to acknowledge that I think maybe some of that is probably happening in the Balkans as well.
Archaeology and Political Claims
00:29:42
Speaker
So I don't want to seem like overly like I'm critiquing too much what's going on because there's different layers of what's going on here. But I guess as somebody who is kind of trained from a Western perspective, kind of looking back and having some sort of understanding of the local archaeology, I do see these gaps and I ask myself why. Yeah. And I mean, southeastern Europe and like Eastern Europe in general is kind of
00:30:06
Speaker
very foreign to like American audiences. We kind of only really worry about Western Europe in like the news and things. So it's like, or the news only makes us worry about that. So yeah, it's, it's neat that like you take note of these things cause I would have no idea. And especially like, I guess it's tough cause post Soviet Eastern Europe is a mess. And like, how do you, like all the States are like shifting and it's,
00:30:33
Speaker
how do you write the history books like really quickly to change how stuff works but I imagine then the archaeology is just
00:30:40
Speaker
wacky over there because of that too. Well, yeah. And it's like, and it can be archeology and understanding the past can be tied to social identity and how you perceive yourself and how you perceive yourself being on a landscape for a certain amount of time. So it, yeah, it becomes like a weapon or, or something that can be changed to help further your cause or help connect you to, to your land mass. So it becomes this,
00:31:09
Speaker
you know, archaeology doesn't exist just in an academic sort of sense. It's really exists in this world of social identity and how we perceive ourselves as well.
00:31:19
Speaker
Yeah, and that's a really great point, Connor. And that's something that I think about a lot, especially working where I do, because not only is archaeology used to kind of cement a claim to an area, but it's also used to sort of deny other people a claim to the area. So like, especially where I work in Albania and Kosovo, because Kosovo, for example, is an area that is disputed. So there's lots of ethnic tensions there. And people often use the archaeology to make an argument one way or another that
00:31:47
Speaker
Oh, Kosovo should be independent or no Kosovo should not be independent. And they make references to the archaeological and the cultural material there to try to support both sides of the claim. So it's almost like it's going back towards a culture history type thing in parts of Europe.
00:32:03
Speaker
Well, not going back. I think in some parts it never went past. I mean, yeah, I think in Albania, culture history has reigned supreme for a long time and it's changing now after the fall of communism and the kind of influx of Western thought. It is changing. We finally, you know, started doing your radiocarbon dates and incorporating kind of different sorts of theories.
00:32:26
Speaker
things are changing and that's that's really exciting but for the most part it's but in Kosovo and in Albania a culture history kind of rained for a very long time. On that note we wanted to talk about the new memorandum of understanding with Albania but we're going towards the end of the segment so we will talk about that in the beginning of the next segment and we are here chatting with Arena Bachi episode 47 on Life from a Podcast we will catch you in the third segment.
00:32:54
Speaker
Welcome back to episode 47 of Life and Ruins podcast. We're here in segment three still with Irina Bocce. She has not decided to flee the podcast. So at the end of the last segment, Connor mentioned that, and Irina also pointed out, that there is an MOU, which is a mutual, it's not mutual. Memorandum. Memorandum of understanding.
00:33:19
Speaker
Yep, that's it. MOU, Memorandum of Understanding. It's not in place though, right? And it's between the United States and Albania. Well, it's in the works. It's in the works. It's in a work in progress. So what is this MOU? What does it mean and how does that affect archaeology? Some of those points that we just talked about in this last segment, right?
Protecting Cultural Resources
00:33:42
Speaker
Yeah, so this is super exciting. So the Republic of Albania has submitted a request to the United States to enter in a memorandum of understanding in regards to cultural resources in Albania, specifically to curb the looting of archaeological sites and the exportation of illegal artifacts out of Albania.
00:34:00
Speaker
and into other parts of the world like the US for example. So this is really exciting for a lot of reasons and I think it fits into the conversation we've been having today in regards to just the influence of geopolitics and archaeology and the interplay because this MOU is a political agreement but it involves you know cultural heritage.
00:34:18
Speaker
And I think it highlights a lot of really interesting things like the power dynamics at play. So, for example, in Albania, we know, like, local archaeologists know that looting is a problem. We know that artifacts are being illegally dug up and exported for illegal trade.
00:34:34
Speaker
entering into an agreement with a country like the United States helps us, I guess, helps us make some progress towards curbing this. And like I said, this kind of highlights the power dynamic of a country like Albania that has these cultural resources, that has this problem, but needs an agreement with another country to sort of try to tackle this in a way on the global sphere because on its own internationally there's
00:34:59
Speaker
little agency that Albania has when it comes to curbing the illegal artifact trade. So I think it's super interesting. And it just speaks to a lot of things as well, like cultural heritage management and international relations. Like, for example, how UNESCO sites get awarded. Albania currently has three sites, for example. And it's really interesting when you look at what these sites are. Two of them are cities, so Barat and Girocaster.
00:35:25
Speaker
And they are known for their more recent historical architecture. They're often cited as having really important Byzantine or Ottoman buildings. And the more prehistoric older stuff is also cited, but the importance is placed on this kind of newer stuff that ties this site to other parts of the Balkans or other parts of the world. And the same is for one of our other UNESCO world sites, Putrent, which is a colony in the south.
00:35:51
Speaker
And people love but everybody talks about it because, you know, it was made a colony under Augustus and Caesar was there. So it's all cool and it's flashy. But what's interesting is that there's a bunch of other sites that have been put forth by Albania to get this UNESCO status, sites that don't necessarily have the same international ties. And they haven't been, I guess, ascended to UNESCO status. For example, a site that's near and dear to my heart, the Cerza Posna, which is home to these Illyrian royal tombs.
00:36:21
Speaker
but it's also home to an Iron Age settlement. So there's so much archaeology at this site. It's beautiful and it's been on the register, I think, since 1996 or something like that, or maybe 1992, somewhere in the 90s. And it hasn't really made any progress towards becoming a UNESCO World Heritage Site. And then that begs the question, why? Why does a site like Butrint get to be promoted to a UNESCO World Heritage Site? And why does
00:36:47
Speaker
said, it's not get that same treatment. And I think it speaks to, again, geopolitics, power dynamics, and even some of the biases in archaeology, we tend to have a preference, for better or for worse, towards big sites, sites with monumental architecture, sites that we can tie to other parts of the world, like Greece or Rome or Turkey. So
00:37:07
Speaker
I think it ties on a lot of really interesting themes that we've been talking about today, which goes to show you that archaeology is not just about the past. The way we understand the past is very much influenced by current political currents and how we go about protecting cultural resources and heritage and the like is very, very much influenced by politics. I think all archaeologists, no matter where they work, need to be
00:37:34
Speaker
very much invested in understanding the politics and the geopolitics and the history of the place where they work if they want to really understand the archaeology of the area.
00:37:45
Speaker
And it seems like this memorandum of understanding almost gives credence and gives help to these Iron Age or even older stuff that have artifacts and things that can be easily moved. Like these Byzantine temples are not going anywhere anytime soon. So there's a bias in that, in that the built world is getting this, is not gonna be affected as much by this. And these other sites seem to need more protection
00:38:14
Speaker
And this memorandum could be a way of making a step towards that.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I'm really excited by it. Again, I understand that the need for this memorandum does highlight some issues that we've talked about. But I'm excited because I think it's a step forward. Because I was in Albania, I guess it was two years ago now because I haven't been there in forever. And I was surveying sites for my research. And when I was surveying a site, I noticed that people had gone there with a metal detector to dig up. I guess people are looking for gold. They never find gold. They just find, you know,
00:38:49
Speaker
that doesn't deter people. So like I'm out here surveying my sites and I just see like like holes and like a neolithic axe kind of just in plain sight and you know that was dug up because that is usually not found on the surface. So looting is a problem and I'm glad that the Albanian cultural heritage management, I don't want to say agencies, but I guess bodies are going to get maybe
00:39:13
Speaker
the help or bolstering or support that they need hopefully from this memorandum. It's not going to solve everything and I definitely don't want to make it seem like overseas international interference is the solution because I don't think it ever is. But I think in this case, unfortunately, given the power dynamics and the lack of agency Albania has in the international sphere, I think this is what it takes to make a step in the right direction. I do think long term, we need to think about
00:39:40
Speaker
creating a scenario where countries like Albania are able to do these things themselves and where they don't need interference or help from an outside agency. But I think we're a little bit a ways away from that for the time being. Carlton, you saw something similar in Ukraine, right? Where there were a lot of outside researchers that came in to do. It's also a post communist country. Yeah. Arena since last time we talked to you, I think that later that summer went to Ukraine and worked there for
00:40:08
Speaker
five weeks. Long five weeks. But what I noticed, and something that was brought to my attention by the Ukrainians I worked with, they're really confused why I was there. They've never had anyone come out to just be a volunteer and pay to dig because they're used to Central or West Europeans coming in and funding a site and taking the research and publishing it.
00:40:32
Speaker
back in other journals, but you know, they always have to have like an assistant who's Ukrainian who funds it, but they're using Ukrainian workers. I remember one made the comments, you know, yeah, why would I bring people from my country here? Like if I could pay one Ukrainian worker a day, what they would expect in an hour. And so it was,
00:40:50
Speaker
kind of an eye opening moment, I guess, just to see that happen. And as David said, and we've talked about this before on the podcast, we had Simon a couple episodes back. So if you're real curious, go listen to that for anyone that's listening. And the same thing, you know, good friend of mine who worked with me in Wyoming, he's Croatian and he has similar stories about what goes on. And he's said a lot of things and privately that you've talked about here, Reena, because, you know, Croatia also has a,
00:41:16
Speaker
history with one of its neighbors. And he's said some of the same things when it comes to Croatian and other Balkan country archeology. Yeah, the Balkans are an interesting place to work, that's for sure. Do you feel like your archeology work and like what your research is going to do can help with like the understanding of that area and like the political sphere of that area in a way?
00:41:39
Speaker
Well, I certainly
Improving Balkan Archaeology
00:41:40
Speaker
hope so. I don't pretend to be the solution to Balkan archaeology. I think there are many great minds and people that know a lot more than I do. But I hope to play my role, my little part in like trying to illuminate some of the issues in Balkan archaeology. Really, I think one of the things that
00:41:59
Speaker
I think is my job is just to be as good of an archaeologist as I can be, to be critical about my positionality, to be critical about the fact that yes, I am Albanian, but I'm trained in the West. So I shouldn't approach going back home with a colonial mindset that I'm coming from the West, therefore I know better. You know what I mean? There's a lot of things to be considered. So I do hope to play my part in trying to make archaeology in Albania a little better to kind of help move us forward, you know, past the
00:42:29
Speaker
the time of culture history and towards this more kind of collaborative archaeology, which is the trend, I hope, and I think, yeah, I guess a long winded way of saying.
00:42:41
Speaker
I hope, but my role is a little one, and there are many people doing similar things. So it's all about people working together, Balkan archaeologists, communicating with each other, talking to each other, sharing data, ideas, talking theory, and doing our part collectively to try to move the field forward.
00:43:00
Speaker
Sure. Well, best of luck with it. We are very excited to see it and, you know, keep checking in on you and chatting with you about these things. Cause it's, it's super interesting and not something we're exposed to on a, on a, on a daily basis. So we wanted to add this a little bit in here at the end of this segment to talk about. So it's this Thursday. What's the, what's the date? Mr. How 18th is anthropology day. Right.
00:43:27
Speaker
So February 18th that David just whispered into my ear is national anthropology day. And because we have you on here and you go to such an important school in anthropology and archeology in general, we wanted to kind of talk to you about how your, your theory is kind of taught to you and how you ultimately give that information back to the public in a way that's digestible and usable.
00:43:53
Speaker
That's a great question. I hope I give the answer that you want to hear. I may not. So I'll lead with saying, I think theory is important. I don't think theory is the be all end all. I think practice is just as important and methods are just as important and ethics are also very equally important. Going to a place like Michigan, I think there's, in terms of theory, I do appreciate that I've gotten a good understanding of just the history of archaeological thought.
Diverse Theoretical Frameworks
00:44:17
Speaker
and what it means to think like a processualist. But I think to somebody looking into archeology now and thinking about pursuing, or somebody who's in a PhD or thinking about pursuing a PhD, I would say that the days of kind of classifying ourselves as one type of archeologist are behind us, or at least I hope they are. So yes, read up on your theory, but read up on all theory. Don't just read processual or post-processual, read feminist theory, read black feminist theory, read about geopolitics.
00:44:47
Speaker
read about gender like read about everything and make sure that you are a well rounded kind of academic. And also focus on your methods develop your methods develop your applications again try to kind of broaden out and not pinhole yourself into one kind of.
00:45:04
Speaker
frame of thinking, you'll be, I think, a stronger academic for it. So as I'm making my way right now in my degree, I'm trying to read about the archaeology of not only Albania and Kosovo, I'm trying to read about it all. And yes, it's a lot, it's overwhelming, but I think it'll help me understand what's going on in my specific part of the world better if I have an understanding of what's going on, for example, in Croatia, and if I can tie that into what I'm seeing in the Iron Age in Albania or not. So
00:45:33
Speaker
Yes, theory is important. The history of archaeological thought is important to know. Like, for example, it's very easy to critique culture history because hindsight is 20-20. There are many, many pitfalls to the cultural historical approach, but knowing it is useful. Knowing what its pitfalls are are very useful for trying to move forward in terms of your theory and your paradigm today. So I hope that made sense. I think that is an excellent answer. If I just stated, then I think the three of us could ever say, but
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah, because you're throwing all these ideas for like...
00:46:07
Speaker
here's this way of thinking and this way of thinking and like here's style versus function and then here's structural functionalism and then you're like blah blah blah and then like it just becomes words but at least when you're told all of those things you can kind of get an idea for like okay right cultural history or culture history I can't look at things that way because that would be biased and like behavioral ecology is awesome but then I'm looking at people just as data on a landscape and that's not good so I gotta like
00:46:37
Speaker
It helps steer you in a way. And like, I think you're right. There's no reason for us anymore to just pigeonhole yourself into one of those and be like, I'm processual. And it's like, no, just think critically. We got a hot take. This is something that my, because I had this conversation with my advisor, Dr. Bamforth.
00:46:56
Speaker
And, you know, he's from the same, like he went to gate cliff with Bob. So same generation, they're the same age. And something Doug told me is like, you know, theory has definitely changed over the years. And now instead of it being, it's more, it's just more like a toolkit. All the theories are kind of like a set of tools and you get the right one for the job. I just had to retake theory as part of the CU Boulder thing, as they made me retake theory. And there was, I was far more engaged.
00:47:21
Speaker
last semester than I was the first semester of my master's at Wyoming. And I felt more comfortable talking about it because not only did I have, you know, a theory class behind me, but at that point I'd read so much in the literature is much easier for me to engage with theory and enjoy theory.
00:47:41
Speaker
than it was the first time I took it because I was, you know, it's just daunting. Yeah, daunting. You're a, you're a, you're a freckled baby deer in the woods who doesn't know anything and you're just scared. But I found it, it was one of my, I looked forward to it. Even though it went on, it was supposed to be three hours, but it would often go to five hours. But after three, we were out to drink wine. So that, that might've helped. But
00:48:04
Speaker
I fell in love with it. And I'm actually working on a theory paper now, which actually talks about culture history and its applications to today and how it works very well with indigenous archeology, how you can take culture history and actually intertwine the two. Because they kind of build off each other and add some and replace some of those pitfalls with other parts of theory to combine them to be like, this isn't a bad... For what I was trying to do, it was a bad approach, but you could take some of the methods culture history does
00:48:28
Speaker
to better understand the archeological record. I don't know. Now I'm going on a rant. Yeah, exactly. I a hundred percent agree. Yeah. I love the melding of things and it's, cause it's not just, they're not just categories. They're influx and they can work together and, and yeah. And on that, thank you so much for chatting with us, arena. Thank you so much for coming on.
00:48:53
Speaker
My pleasure. Thanks for having me. I'm always happy to talk about maps, Albanian Kosova and all of the above. Absolutely. Yeah. And I appreciate you always helping with those posts too. It's like.
00:49:05
Speaker
I always explain you as big brain because I can be like, Hey, can you explain this to me? And then you can just explain it to me better than two years of grad school taught me. So it's like, well, cool. The secret is I Google my prelim notes. I like control F my prelim notes. And that's how I get you an answer. That's what works. It works.
00:49:28
Speaker
There you go. Before we end the show, Irina, what are a couple sources, one to three books, articles, videos that you would recommend to anyone interested in Albanian archaeology, history, anthropology? This is what we're going to call the Caleb Welch section because that kid is hungry for literature. You got anything at the top of your head that our listeners can check out for themselves? Let me think. In terms of
00:49:51
Speaker
Archaeology of Kosovo, there's a PDF available online for free. It's called Archaeological Guide of Kosovo. I recommend that to everybody that knows nothing about Kosovo and wants to know something. It's in English and it's free. It's by Mirot Darisha. He's an archaeologist, a local archaeologist in Kosovo, so it's great.
00:50:08
Speaker
In terms of Albania, I think I have already mentioned the Illyrians by John Wilkes. It's an oldie. It's like from 1992, but I still kind of refer to that every now and then. There's a great article, though, that came out recently in 2019. It's by Marco Porcic. He talks about inequality in the Balkans in a way that I have never seen before, and I think it's so great. It's 50 pages, but he brings in theory into the archaeology of the Balkans, so it's really great. He looks at
00:50:36
Speaker
He tries to answer the question of, why don't we have states in the Balkans? And it's a great article. I mean, I really like it. So I totally recommend it to anybody who's interested in the Balkans. This is a great injection of theory, in my opinion. In terms of archaeology in general and ethics, Hauser et al., 2018, there's an article called, Archaeology is Bearing Witness. And I think it's a really great piece. It has multiple perspectives from many different archaeologists who are working in the field right now, talking about what the role of archaeology is.
00:51:04
Speaker
So what is our job as archaeologists? So I totally recommend that to everyone and everybody. So I think that was three or four. That's perfect. Where can our listeners find you on social media? Mostly Instagram. I post lots of rambling stories on Instagram about maps and geopolitics. So if you want my takes, you can find me on the Albanian archaeologists on Instagram. Arena is a prolific Instagram story person. There's a lot of stories.
00:51:34
Speaker
It's great. I always learn something though. I'm like, Oh, that's cool. Or I find cool accounts that I can then follow. Yeah.
00:51:41
Speaker
Excellent. Well, everyone, we just interviewed Arena Bachi, PhD student in anthropology at the University of Michigan, soon to be PhD candidate, fingers crossed. You can find Arena on Instagram by following her at the Albanian Archaeologist. Please be sure to rate the podcast, provide us with feedback on whichever podcasting platform you choose to listen to our show. And when I say please rate our podcast, I mean, please rate our podcast. Thank you. Bye.
00:52:12
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archaeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. All right. And this joke is coming from the Dean John and joke machine that he is actually just sent me a website and it works out great. These are dad jokes sent to me by my dad.
00:52:41
Speaker
So someone complimented my parking today. They left a sweet note on my windshield that said, parking fine. This is getting worse, man. Tuckled at that. So much worse. They're getting into the groaner stage, which is what I'm going for. Right when we are out.
00:53:15
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV Traveling America, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.