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Age Against the Machine: Dan Pontefract on Why Older Workers Are the Future
18 Plays8 days ago
What happens to decades of wisdom when companies push out experienced workers? In Part 2 of this conversation, author, speaker, and educator Dan Pontefract goes deeper into his landmark book The Future of Work is Grey , breaking down the true cost of ageism in the workplace and why older workers are the most underutilized competitive advantage in business today.
Dan unpacks his Experience Dividend framework — three pillars organizations are leaving on the table:
▸ Career Canvas — why we need to burn the career ladder and build flexible, non-linear paths
▸ Wisdom Wheel — how to capture tacit knowledge and transferable skills before they walk out the door
▸ Longevity Lens —rethinking how age intersects with the future of work
He also introduces a powerful new model - Rivers, Rocks & Rubies - to replace outdated generational labels and honor the crystallized intelligence experienced workers bring to every role. Plus, real-world examples from BCLC's Phase Retirement Program and BMW's Senior Talent Transition Program that prove progressive companies ARE getting this right.
And for those in the middle of a job search over 50 or fighting age discrimination right now — Dan's message is clear: Age Against the Machine. Be loud and proud. Your vast wealth of experience is something no algorithm can replicate.
🔗 Connect with Dan Pontefract:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danpontefract/
Homepage: https://www.danpontefract.com/
Book Page: https://www.danpontefract.com/booksbydan/
Order the Book: https://www.danpontefract.com/the-future-of-work-is-grey/
📣 Follow the Ageism Survival Guide:
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ageism-survival-guide
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Transcript
Introduction to Dan Pontefract & Key Issues
00:00:05
Speaker
In the last episode, we met Dan Pontefract, renowned author and speaker. We talked about the inspiration behind his book, The Future of Work is Gray. We also covered some of the key issues facing companies and the individuals that work in them.
00:00:20
Speaker
This week, we get deeper into the conversation and to some advice for workers. Before we dive in though, I wanna encourage you to hit the subscribe button so you don't miss any videos on pragmatic tips to navigating the terrain against ageism.
Impact of Mass Retirements & Experience Dividend
00:00:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's it's amazing. as As I mentioned to you before, um before we went live here on the recording, you know, my my LinkedIn filled up with announcements of people going into retirement. Many of them or most of them were unwilling. And it it just blew up in my LinkedIn last year in 2025 when a record number of jobs were were lost, ah both in in the US, but also in in Europe, where where I have a lot of a lot of connections. And it's amazing. In all of this, every person who walks out the door is is typically decades of experience, decades of knowledge. you know
00:01:15
Speaker
you you can You can give a a room full of 20 year olds an assignment and they can Google and Google and and and jump on ChatGPT. but But somebody who's in their mid to late 50s, they already know the answer.
00:01:29
Speaker
they They don't have to type anything. They don't have to click anywhere. They they already know the answer. and and And this is all being lost. It's all being lost to the wind. And you mentioned in your book, you have a term that you call the experience
Career Re-Architecting Concepts
00:01:44
Speaker
dividend. And and and maybe we can we can get into this one and talk about what is the experience dividend and and what is it that companies are leaving on the table and and and not using?
00:01:55
Speaker
Well, wherever I look ah and whatever I've done, even though i get i get quite... um
00:02:04
Speaker
What's the word? I get quite descriptive on what's wrong in some of my um books and my research, etc. So whether that's collaboration and the inhibitors to collaboration, you know, the silos, the egos, etc., whether it's purpose. And as I mentioned, short termism and companies operating just for the short term.
00:02:25
Speaker
I always have hope. Like there's always a flip side. There's always like, like, what could we do? And there are examples of organizations and leaders that are thinking in good, positive, hopeful ways. So as much as I'm alarmed and am an alarmist for sure, like ringing the bell at the fire department.
00:02:44
Speaker
ah I do believe that there is hope and that we can we can make some very positive changes because some are doing it. So the experience dividend, so the opposite debt is a dividend. Like we would like um somewhat obviously to um ah allow our retirement savings to increase their dividends and you know continue to build upon a goodness. And that's my point, I guess, metaphorically.
00:03:07
Speaker
three three main areas I think we need to investigate and to to make some change. And I like alliteration, so bear with me. So number one is what I call the career canvas.
00:03:21
Speaker
So we'll get into that. Number two is the wisdom wheel. And number three is the longevity lens. So it kind of be in order, career canvas very simply is that we need to set torch or or set fire to the ladder, the career ladder.
00:03:36
Speaker
And Whether you're um young, as I call rivers, whether you're middle-aged, which are rocks, and whether you're older, which is a ruby in my metaphor, I think what our organizations are doing is not paying attention enough to the fact that we have to blow up the whole idea of the of the of the job families, which is an HR speak, which is to say,
00:04:01
Speaker
You have a individual contributor and they move up maybe to be a team lead, they become a manager and then become a senior manager, they become a director and then it's the family within that. ah ah You're an electrician or you're ah an engineer or you're a pharmacist, right? Whatever it is, there's a there's a path.
00:04:17
Speaker
Now I'm not against there being still a path. I think people can progress, but what we have to equally do is re-architect the career because not everyone A wants to go up.
00:04:29
Speaker
ah B, some people want to be lateral. And then it let's say you're in the organization for a while, you're a rock or a ruby, you've been there middle-aged or older, then maybe there's times in which that you want to go down, maybe have a stint, maybe go outside of the organization and come back and boomerang in.
Rethinking Career Paths: Beyond the Ladder
00:04:47
Speaker
Maybe they are fractional, maybe their contract roles, maybe their gigs, maybe their assignments, maybe the rotations. I think young people need apprenticeship roles. I think they ah very well could use a buddy system and in kind of short term gigs alongside a mentor like a rock or a Ruby, middle aged or older worker. So the whole thing, John has to be, um you know, the metaphor where the the plane is in the air, but we need to sort of change the livery or the fuselage. That is what we've got to keep the career to a degree ladder, at least the career thinking in the air, and then retool the livery and or the fuselage so that the interior has both
00:05:30
Speaker
the kind of opportunity for people to grow and ah build up a career, but also to canvas out and have a whole different play. So that that's the first one. I'll pause there.
00:05:40
Speaker
I think and i agree with you um on the corporate side that that needs to happen, that they reinvent a little bit how people can progress through the career. I think also from a personal perspective,
00:05:53
Speaker
I think we're, and being a corporate executive for many
Identity & Career Titles: Separating Personal Worth
00:05:56
Speaker
years myself, um we're also guilty, right? Because you you start to identify yourself with what your role is, right? So if you're not on that progression path, you're not climbing in in that corporate ladder, you feel like you failed. And so there's this thing that's pushing you forward. And then once you once you leave that hamster wheel and in the corporate world, and and you and you you've been, let's say, pushed out of your company in ah in a wave of of of retirements, um to go back into a fractional role or to go back and and do something that's maybe part-time or at a lower level, I mean, that that hurts from a personal perspective, from a pride perspective. and And one of the things I've been trying to to kind of preach a little bit on the podcast here is is is to try to divorce yourself from that pride because you're almost as guilty in a way as as the companies who who have kind of put you on that wheel. We have to get ourselves off of that wheel and and stop thinking like that so that we can you know build a canvas, as as you mentioned, which is I know you're going to get into a little bit more detail on that shortly.
00:07:10
Speaker
i I could agree more. and And I would say that we are trained, tooled, ingrained into thinking, to your point, that the only way for credibility is up with title progression, girth progression in terms of budget, team size, right title size, office size. right These are all the trappings of a very antiquated line of thinking about your contribution and how you can have a sense of meaning and purpose to your to your work to your end to your life, quite frankly. So back to like when we were kidding around ah earlier when I said, you know, the first question at a cocktail party is, hey, what do you do?
00:07:56
Speaker
That is such a a lightning rod for
00:08:03
Speaker
inclusivity. Like, do you do you matter? Do you belong in the conversation?
Corporate Structural Changes for Career Diversity
00:08:08
Speaker
Because, you know, if you're like, ah i'm well, i'm on ah I'm on a six month gig.
00:08:14
Speaker
i'm a I'm a contractor. I'm a fractional CMO. I'm a fractional engineer. i'm I'm a seamstress to be. I'm learning to be a seamstress, whatever. like there's such We have such identity and sense of agency and purpose tied into what your title is and and what you do.
00:08:34
Speaker
Whereas to credit, like what we've got to be rethinking as individuals is is kind of like bucking that trend all the while still in the in the airline, in the fuselage, helping to almost retool what the library and the fuselage looks like. So I think we we can play a part if we sort of unite as individuals as well and kind of push up against the establishment. Meanwhile, I think the establishment has a lot of homework to do to to retool said library and fuselage as well.
00:09:06
Speaker
So do you have any um suggestions or proposals? Do you outline any and in your book? Of course, your book comes out and in a few weeks, so I haven't read read it. Do you have suggestions, proposals on how they can do that redesign of the fuselage in mid-flight?
00:09:23
Speaker
Well, I'm writing particularly for leaders and people who are interested in sort of up ah skilling their thinking, right? Ultimately on what what a career ladder is and kind of retooling that. So that all being said, i think from an individual perspective, if I have any advice and it is akin to what is in the book and I point this out because the book, as I say a few times, like you need to look in the mirror whilst you're ah leading this charge.
00:09:53
Speaker
So the canvas itself, right, is the opportunity to say to you and also to your team, ah this is this is how we're going to operate differently.
Successful Career Flexibility Programs
00:10:05
Speaker
So let me use this as an example by a couple of company examples, one in Canada, one in Germany. So in ah in British Columbia, my home province, in fact, which is really needed me to have stumbled upon when I did some work for this company, ah the company is called BCLC, British Columbia Lottery Corporation.
00:10:24
Speaker
And so as you can imagine, they're in charge of the lottery and other sort of gambling and betting type situations, casinos, et cetera, right across the province. All the monies go back to the province, by the way, to help build roads and schools and whatever. so What I find out as I'm doing some work with them at their headquarters is they actually they kind of flippantly told me one day, i like, oh, yeah, we've got this thing called the PRP.
00:10:49
Speaker
i was like, oh, what's that? Well, the phased retirement program. was like, oh, what's that? Like, oh, well, if you kind of put your hand up, you can sort of slow your retirement down so that you kind of work 80 percent, 60 percent, even 40 percent over a period of years.
00:11:08
Speaker
I like, oh my God, that's brilliant. That's the whole phase down that I'm advocating as part of this career canvas. So like, oh, we didn't think it was a big deal. i'm like, no one's doing this, at least that I'm coming across in Canada.
00:11:21
Speaker
and i And I said, is this open to anybody? i' like, yeah, you can just kind of put up your hand. I'm like, That is such a way in which to then transfer that wisdom and get people sidelined with that other individual so that they can learn on the job some of the things. And so they eventually get to kind of a pairing where it's 50-50 or they move up or whatever the case is. Right. So I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. That's PRP, phased retirement program. Can we do that in ah in the rethinking of careers and at the same time, the transference of wisdom for someone coming into the role?
00:11:55
Speaker
In Germany, you'll like this, it's a car example. So it's BMW. And when I'm working with BMW, I find out that they have something called, i always get the German translation wrong, but it's like the senior talent transition program.
00:12:10
Speaker
You're like, oh my gosh, what's this? And so with their designers and a couple other units, when the the the chief designer or the director or the VP, they can put up their hand and they can say, hey, um I still want to work.
00:12:27
Speaker
I love the work. But is there maybe a way for me to like not do the leadership stuff, but to still be a designer, still be on the testing side or whatever? And so BMW in Germany, and I don't know if this is everywhere, but certainly in Germany, because I saw it in action.
00:12:45
Speaker
ah the That leader puts up their hand and HR works with them and they basically relinquish the leadership responsibility. They then go back to being a individual contributor with their designer skills or QA skills, whatever it is they've got.
00:13:00
Speaker
And then they they promote up like a rock, in my case, middle aged worker to become now that director or VP or whatever. And the other individual is like the conciliary, the mentor to that individual. They're not in charge of the final decisions. Of course, that person has taken on the new role and the other one has relinquished the responsibility for leadership, but it is just brilliant. And so again, they're thinking, hey,
00:13:25
Speaker
How can we still tap into the older worker, the Ruby, ah allow them still to have the same pay, like the same benefits, same, but they're now part of the team, not leading the team. i was like, my gosh, there is another example of a career canvas at play.
00:13:43
Speaker
alongside this wisdom wheel, like how do we continue to make sure that we can inculcate a culture of capture and transfer of some of that tacit knowledge, some of that wisdom that's been gained so that the whole team then can so still still you know function but also
Critique of Generational Labels & Career Intelligence
00:13:59
Speaker
thrive. So there's two little examples from two different parts of the world.
00:14:03
Speaker
that are ah exemplary, but they're also tantamount to my, we can do it. Like there's examples that are doing it differently, whether it's the career canvas or wisdom wheel thinking.
00:14:16
Speaker
Now, I like, well, first of all, i like your your alliterations. ah Can you maybe ah define them a little bit more, the the wisdom wheel? Like what the, you used it in in in context, but.
00:14:28
Speaker
so So basically the wisdom wheel is defined as the opportunity to capture, transfer and educate ah the organization, the team, whatever on said wisdom. And wisdom sits in ah younger workers, the rivers, the middle-aged workers, the rocks and certainly the rubies at the ah at the older level. And what we what we're not doing though in the wisdom wheel is that we have a flat tire, John.
00:14:55
Speaker
the The whole point is that we are either firing the people and not capturing it, whether they're young, middle-aged, or certainly older, and or we're certainly not transferring it. So the recommendation, for example, just one little example would be what are called cognitive task analyses. Now it sounds crazy, CTAs. So what are we doing in the in the advent and now opportunity with ai to go around and just start filming all the people and particularly older workers. Film them, like get them in a camera. What do they know?
00:15:29
Speaker
What's their relationships with the client or in the service line or in the QA or wherever it is, engineering? I don't care. why are we not filming them and why and then so the cta the cognitive task analysis capture is now we've got all this gold this gold of their stories their intellect their again their tacit knowledge etc etc so now we've got it so what are we going to do with it and when we make that point now the wisdom wheel starts really churning and we're like
00:16:02
Speaker
All right, John used to work at Volvo and he's got like a million stories. So here's like John stories woven in with AI and learning management systems and all this good stuff to then say, this is how we're going to teach people going forward. A flip side to this story is Apple.
00:16:20
Speaker
um Before Jobs passed away, one of the things that he asked to be done was to get two librarians hired.
00:16:31
Speaker
And those librarians were actually historians. And the historians went around the company and to alumni and started interviewing them about what worked with Newton or what didn't work with Newton, what worked with Lisa, what didn't work with Lisa and so on.
00:16:49
Speaker
And so he had the foresight back in maybe it was 2008, 2009 to go ahead and say there's there's gold in the stories of what we did right and what we did wrong. And so I think, as usual, Jobs is way ahead of the time or his time or any of our time.
00:17:07
Speaker
And that's an example of CTA, essentially cognitive task analysis. It's like the wisdom wheel can turn and not be deflated or flat if we are thinking strategically about what we know that's not sitting on a hard drive, on a Google drive, in an email or ah an insta Instagram DM message, right? That's what I'm getting at.
00:17:29
Speaker
Now that's brilliant because we always talk about saying, oh, we have to learn from history, but that's generally, I think people think about that meaning like like global history, in international history, geopolitical history.
00:17:43
Speaker
But to think about that within an organization and and it's the history of the company and and what made it successful or unsuccessful in the past on specific projects, I think it's that's a brilliant idea. I think honestly, like the wisdom wheel concept, i think every organization, small, medium or large can have a historian. Now that doesn't have to like it could be an AI historian, like it could be a role that is, you know, someone looking after an HR that's just like, hey, let's go do this. But you need an actual human being in some cases. In some cases, I think you do. I think like Ford, it's like large organizations like BMW and Apple, etc. I think it's a great idea. You can learn a lot from the history of an organization.
00:18:24
Speaker
No, certainly certainly you can. i also love your um your terms of rivers, rocks, and rubies. what i I think that's ah obviously a replacement for generational titles.
00:18:37
Speaker
what what did you How did you come up with that? and And what's the purpose for using that terminology as opposed to saying you know early in your career, mid-career, late career, or whatever other terminology? I get really ticked off, and i I'm using it in this interview with you because...
00:18:56
Speaker
That's the vernacular. But I get really ticked off when we start calling ah workers of a certain vintage older workers or elders. It's driving me bank bonkers.
00:19:08
Speaker
But what drives me even more bonkers is when we associate a generational label to them. So I'm Gen X, but I'm Gen X in life. I'm not Gen X at work.
00:19:21
Speaker
I might like Pearl Jam and other bands from the 90s with Seattle ah kind of ah flavor to them. But I... I'm not a Gen X employee.
00:19:33
Speaker
And so, for example, when we had the whole, hey, boomer, yo, boomer, you boomer kind of mantra or meme happening a few years ago, that that fell, that didn't fall, that that that leaked into the into the workplace.
00:19:48
Speaker
And so all of a sudden now, older workers were boomers and boomers in the workplace were sort of laughed at, scoffed at. and it's like, no, So I have I take huge umbrage with the fact that we continue. HR is culpable, as are other parts of the org, but identifying people by their generation.
00:20:12
Speaker
it It just it doesn't it doesn't compute. What computes for me is the fact that you and I, John, have gone through three eras. And my kids will go through three eras.
00:20:24
Speaker
Their kids will go through three eras. We all go through three eras. And those eras doesn't matter what birth year you were ah born. And it certainly doesn't matter really how old you are. Like there's a range, but it doesn't matter. Absolutely. The age of 28, you become a rock.
00:20:43
Speaker
So I am paying homage to the two types of intelligence, but saying actually there's a third. So over here in the rock land, you have fluid intelligence. Fluid intelligence is, you know, 16 to some age, whatever it is, 28, 38. I don't care. It doesn't matter. But it's like you're learning.
00:21:04
Speaker
You're not quite stoic yet. You don't have all the answers. You've got tons of ideas, but your fluidity is like a river. it's like, right you're just you're on you're You're on a roller coaster river ride, essentially. You're like, put me in, coach. Let me learn. I'll make mistakes. We know you will. But you have then your rock era that you graduate to. So you're still in your river. like The river is you. It doesn't ever go away.
00:21:30
Speaker
So you're in a river, but now you've got rocks in your river. that Those rocks give you stability. you know They can protect they can ah you can be looked up to like, oh, wow, look at that rock. That's like there's some stolid stoic you know leadership happening there.
00:21:45
Speaker
And then as the river continues and it's shining your rock, you enter your ruby era. And the ruby era now has this crystallized intelligence, which is why it's a gem. And the ruby is able to look look around corners, right? It really now has a lot of that history we talked about of what went wrong and what went right in the past, this tacit knowledge that you just don't earn when you're in your fluid or river era. And so this idea, and whatever the age is, again, I don't care. It could start when you're 45, 55, 65. It doesn't matter.
00:22:26
Speaker
It's that each of us are unique and the river rock ruby eras are up to you and up to us, I guess, right? How you define yourself. And it's a natural, you know, flowing kind of state.
00:22:39
Speaker
So i maybe you're a rock, maybe a ruby. I don't really care, but I think that we can do a better job in our organizations ultimately of you don't have to say, here's all our rivers, rocks and rubies. It's just the concept.
00:22:53
Speaker
And to stop this nonsense of generations and certainly stop the nonsense of calling people elders or older workers, it's just like, hey, like we've we've got this great three-level era kind of um career path, if you will, and that just makes people
Advice on Facing Ageism
00:23:13
Speaker
feel good. Wouldn't want to be a Ruby? That's shining gem of wisdom? Come on.
00:23:18
Speaker
You know, um as as we as we kind of a get closer to the to the end, I think, of the of the episode here and the conversation,
00:23:29
Speaker
I think you ended on a really great note there with with this progression from rivers, rocks to to rubies, ultimately. um My target audience on on the podcast is is really people who've been impacted by ageism and and the name itself, the Ageism Survival Guide is is what can they do to either survive in the workplace or what to do when they've been forced out of the workplace and what to do you know as a, let's say a second career or a second reinvention of themselves.
00:24:03
Speaker
Now your target audience, I think you mentioned before is, is a little bit more the executives and trying to raise that alarm on on, you know, this thing is coming, this, this visible train crash, which is unavoidable. If, if you were to talk to the, to, to the audience here on the podcast, the people who are impacted by this, what, what advice could you give them?
00:24:25
Speaker
a few, ah certainly. So I, I have a couple of adages. One is, um, I think we have to have a very stoic but proud kind of age against the machine type of thinking. That's sort of a riff on the old band Rage Against the Machine. But age against the machine is be a realist that there are um a hell of a lot of ageist practices that are visible and invisible that you won't be able to remedy, but you still have to be stoic enough to recognize. So age against the machine is just basically saying, look,
00:25:07
Speaker
ah youre You are not going to be able to solve those problems out there. So just recognize, accept, and then move on. When I say move on, I don't mean to be flippant.
00:25:17
Speaker
I'll get to kind of what my other practices are. I think we have to be loud and proud. When I say we, I'm 55 by the time this thing ah reveals itself online.
00:25:28
Speaker
So we grew up in Canada with a commercial, and it was ah called Freedom 55. And when I was a kid, these commercials on the radio is like Freedom 55. It was this insurance company that said you will retire at 55. Freedom 55.
00:25:44
Speaker
And it always kind of bugged me. It's like, wow, that sounds so old when you're 10 12 and I'm now. And I'm thinking, huh I got at least 30 years left of very competent, hopefully intellectual thinking. So I and I think what we have to be as a tribe of rubies is to be loud and proud.
00:26:07
Speaker
And we can not forgive ourselves if we um pretend that we're not a certain age. Like we just like once more of us start being loud and proud about your age, what that number is and and what you've done with that career that you have, that then lends itself to point number three, which is your transferable skills.
00:26:35
Speaker
I think what we have to get out of and again, I say we I say us the rubies. We have to get out of the, well, I've been an engineer for 40 years.
00:26:47
Speaker
I got nothing left in the tank. I don't know what I'm going to do. I've been a um a marketing agency rep for 35 years. I got whacked. I'm 62. I have no idea what I'm going to do next. The the fact of the matter is that you have an incredible...
00:27:08
Speaker
mezzoine of experiences that are transferable. Now, you may not be an engineer or a marketer going forward, but we have to be open to the possibility that we can do other things because I assure you, John, and you know this, you can do other things because of that gained wisdom and crystallized intelligence and the tacit knowledge of how things actually work in life and work can be transferred to another organization or role.
00:27:42
Speaker
And I think that we have to ah disassociate our, well, I was VP of this or director of that and start thinking about what what's your what's your skills map?
00:27:55
Speaker
and start identifying with all the good things that you can do and how you might transfer that into either another full-time role. Maybe it's a part-time role. Maybe you are what I call the trivial pursuit pie graph and the pie piece, and you have six things that you do.
00:28:13
Speaker
And each of those are all part of your skills map. It's your transfer transferability a pie piece and you can do these little pie pieces, you know, over the course of whatever you call your career next. So those are three things I think we got to be thinking about.
00:28:29
Speaker
ah Fantastic advice. And um in fact, i I've just kicked off a series of of episodes that are upcoming, which address really that, which is literally ah every week, once or twice, there will be an episode that talks about opportunities, different opportunities. and think there up to 20 episodes coming that literally will give an idea every week on what what is a possibility that you can re-employ your knowledge and your wisdom. And I really love your loud and proud. um if If you look at the logo of the ageism survival guide, it's it's kind of an upraised fist with a microphone.
00:29:06
Speaker
and And then the music that I've chosen is is a bit of a protest song style of kind of heavy rock. So I'm not going quietly. And and thank you for the loud and proud.
00:29:18
Speaker
Excellent. Well, we are going to be friends for life then for the rest of our Ruby lives. Perfect. Perfect.
Conclusion & Thanks to Dan
00:29:25
Speaker
I want to thank you, Dan, for for joining today and for sharing what you've learned, looking across the whole globe, not just ah in in the US or Canada, about the impact of of ageism and demographics and and where this is going and for being a person who is ringing that siren, ringing the bell for for companies and for individuals to to watch out. It was really a pleasure to talk about that today.
00:29:51
Speaker
ah The honor was mine, John. Again, thank you for the opportunity. You're not just well prepared, you're in the thick of what ah we ought to be doing to be loud and proud and to to push sort of a new um way of thinking, a new chapter, a new library in our airplane metaphor here so we can fly to the next destination.
00:30:13
Speaker
Absolutely. I I'm, I'm fully on board with you there. And I did mean that pun. ah Um, so I think with that, ah let's wrap up this episode. Um, fantastic discussion. I'm going to make sure that the links for not just the one book that you named dropped, but all of them are going to be in the, in the show notes so that the the listeners or viewers of the episode this week, we'll have the chance to check those out and hopefully consider, uh, to order one, one or more of your books.
00:30:43
Speaker
Very kind of you. um I wish everyone that may have stuck around this long ah wellness in your age path. And thank you again, John. You're welcome. You're welcome. As we always say here on the Ageism Survival Guide, youth runs fast, but age knows the terrain.
00:31:02
Speaker
Until next time.