Transcript
Speaker: Outside the classroom the other day, a little boy came up to me and, tugging at the hem of my garment, asked, how do I be a success like you?
Speaker: And I didn't know what to say.
Speaker: You see, I've never thought of myself that way, because after GCSEs, A-levels and 2 degrees, society does not tend to see reading poetry to kids as a natural progression.
Speaker: And sometimes it feels like I'm not listening in the lesson, like this isn't proper work or the kind of thing a man should be doing.
Speaker: My parents tell me that I'm better than that, that this isn't a proper job, that of course giving kids the joy of words is no bad thing, but to leave it to someone else and to go out there and be someone.
Speaker: Wear a suit, son.
Speaker: Commute, son.
Speaker: And of course we read poems and books to you, son.
Speaker: But this was not an end in itself.
Speaker: At no point did we dream that one day you would be doing such a thing for anyone other than your own kids.
Speaker: What are you?
Speaker: A glorified bloody babysitter.
Speaker: And so the bitter taste at the back of my throat when the boy asked, how do I be a success like you, arose from not believing it to be true.
Speaker: It arose from skulking in the shadows of people my age on 80k a year.
Speaker: Of people my age with their own flats and cars and even of the bloke at the bar who, upon being told that I work with children, drunkenly snorts perverts.
Speaker: As though that could be the only excuse for a man wanting to do such a thing.
Speaker: It arose from having memorised the lines of a play in which I play no part, but no.
Speaker: Through that boy's eyes, I saw myself anew.
Speaker: So to the boy who asked me, how do I be a success like you?
Speaker: I say this.
Speaker: Believe that what you're doing is worthwhile.
Speaker: Believe that anyone who doubts you is mistaken.
Speaker: Tell yourself every day that you can be whatever you want to be.
Speaker: Tell yourself that success is not just reading from someone else's script, but believing what you say, or even better, writing the words yourself.
Speaker: And know that what counts is not whether you've spelt them correctly or whether they're in the right order, but that they are yours.
Speaker: Success does not come in manuals.
Speaker: Success is not flat-pack furniture.
Speaker: And you know what?
Speaker: Success certainly doesn't come from listening to poems about what success is.
Speaker: So, son, do it your way.
Speaker: Don't listen to what I say.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to episode 103 of our podcast at the Human Restoration Project.
Speaker: My name is Nick Covington and I'm a social studies teacher from Ankeny, Iowa.
Speaker: Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are Julie Wolver-Judkins, Trent M. Kirkpatrick, and Aubrey Holliman.
Speaker: Thank you for your ongoing support.
Speaker: You can learn more about the Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org, or find us on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook.
Speaker: My guest today, whose work you heard in the intro, is highly acclaimed, award-winning professional poet, performer, and educator Joshua Siegel, who uses poetry to develop literacy skills and inspire confidence in creativity and communication.
Speaker: He has worked in hundreds of schools, libraries, theaters, and festivals around the world, had books published by Bloomsbury and other major publishers, and has written and performed for BBC Television.
Speaker: Joshua Siegel has recently been awarded the 2020 Laugh Out Loud Book Award for I Bet I Can Make You Laugh and shortlisted for the 2021 People's Book Prize for Yapping Away.
Speaker: In this episode, I talk to Joshua about his journey from academia to poetry, as well as his own experiences attending British schools and the perspective he has on them now as an adult.
Speaker: And of course, we get a bit of a poetry reading near the end.
Speaker: I should add that I recorded this at home with a very busy three-and-a-half-year-old who you may hear throughout the episode.
Speaker: Thank you, Joshua, for being very gracious during an otherwise chaotic recording on my end.
Speaker: I hope you enjoy the episode.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's a really interesting journey.
Speaker: I've been a professional poet, believe it or not, for about 10 years.
Speaker: And it's kind of really difficult to trace back the steps and connect the dots in terms of how I got to do that.
Speaker: I think what happens initially was when I was at school myself, I wasn't massively into poetry.
Speaker: I think I've always enjoyed words and wordplay and writing.
Speaker: But I decided to go into academia initially.
Speaker: So I did a degree in philosophy, and then I did a postgraduate degree.
Speaker: And during those studies, which I guess we can talk about a little bit later in the conversation, but I developed some quite brutal mental health issues.
Speaker: And I really found that writing creatively and kind of fitting words together in interesting ways was a really, really helpful way of dealing with the stress of my studies.
Speaker: And then eventually I... So I was just writing, you know, for fun, for myself.
Speaker: And one day, and this was when it was just after my postgraduate degree, when I loved writing and I discovered performance poetry as well.
Speaker: But I had no idea that it was even a possibility as a job.
Speaker: But then I read an interview in a local newspaper with a professional poet.
Speaker: And he talked about the work he did visiting schools.
Speaker: And I thought that's what I, you know, that's what I could do.
Speaker: So I, I, um, I looked him up, I sent an email and he invited me to come along and meet him and, and see what he did.
Speaker: And I thought, you know, this is exactly what I want to do.
Speaker: Um, and, you know, initially, you know, I was not able to do it.
Speaker: It took a long while before I was able to make a living off that, but that's, that's kind of how the ball started rolling.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: I made myself a website on Wix.
Speaker: They're not paying me to say that, by the way.
Speaker: But they're the people I use for my website.
Speaker: And I just started initially, I just started calling up all the schools in the local area and just asking if I could come and visit and share my poems.
Speaker: And I think one in about 100 schools said yes.
Speaker: And again, that kind of got the journey kicked off.
Speaker: And along the way, I got books published.
Speaker: And social media, which you mentioned at the beginning, has, well, increasingly so since the pandemic.
Speaker: But it's been absolutely crucial for me.
Speaker: It's enabled me to meet people.
Speaker: and connect with people and share my work.
Speaker: As you'll know, I post a lot of my work on the socials.
Speaker: So, yeah, and you mentioned the awards.
Speaker: The awards was for something called the Laugh Out Loud Award, and it's awarded every year to the funniest children's book.
Speaker: And it's voted on by the public.
Speaker: So it was really special to me to win that.
Speaker: And that was in, that was actually, I remember it because it was a month before the first lockdown.
Speaker: So that would be February 2020.
Speaker: So that was really, that was really special.
Speaker: It's interesting how that time kind of becomes a milestone in our heads, isn't it?
Speaker: That March 2020, there's like a pre and post.
Speaker: So you can kind of date yourself from that.
Speaker: It's so weird.
Speaker: Speaking to your experience, though, kind of in that in that world of academia, we kind of hear and I've heard from from my own friends and colleagues, too, you know, who have who have moved between careers.
Speaker: That's a pretty common theme, you know, struggling with with mental health, perhaps purpose and stuff in those institutions.
Speaker: And then through maybe the power of relationships or mentoring is maybe what it sounds like in your circumstance there.
Speaker: I'm kind of getting involved in what you perceive as being, you know, this new, powerful, purposeful work.
Speaker: So I wonder then, too, if.
Speaker: So many of our interactions have been around those issues.
Speaker: We don't have to necessarily speak to intelligence testing and all those other questions just yet.
Speaker: But I want to know just generally about your experiences in the British education system, perhaps as a younger person before your secondary collegiate university level stuff.
Speaker: Because I think through social media, we get such a narrow lens of what that looks like.
Speaker: So I'm really curious about your experiences with that.
Speaker: Yeah, well, you did briefly mention intelligence, and I think that has been a crucial facet of my mental health journey.
Speaker: My own schooling, my experience of the British system is not at all representative of
Speaker: So my parents actually paid for me to go to, we call them private schools.
Speaker: I think you call, I don't, or, so we say public schools, which means you've got to pay for them.
Speaker: But when you say public schools, that means it's free.
Speaker: Is that correct?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So basically my parents paid for me to attend school, which is not, you know, so I had a privileged or what would be called a privileged education.
Speaker: And throughout my schooling,
Speaker: Grades and exams and passing exams was of absolute paramount importance.
Speaker: The whole system that I was part of was geared towards getting into a good university and from then on, you know, getting a job which makes lots of money.
Speaker: That's the message that I kind of imbibed from the education system.
Speaker: And somewhere along the line, I internalized the notion that intelligence is what defines human worth.
Speaker: And ever since I've been about, you know, in my early 20s, my journey since then has been a kind of deprogramming of that notion.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: I've learned a hell of a lot about, and, and, you know, as, as I've progressed on that journey, I've learned a lot more than the average, um, non-specialist, uh, in, in intelligence testing and what intelligence is.
Speaker: And, um, I don't know whether you want to go into that at all, but I've, I've worked and through the work I do, um, especially, um, I, I, I know that, um,
Speaker: There's no correlation between intelligence and what you might call lovability, you know, being worthy of love.
Speaker: And that's been, I mean, I'm very, again, we don't need to go into this necessarily, but I'm very interested in psychoanalysis.
Speaker: So that might be a slightly, you know, the idea of love and being worthy of love is quite a,
Speaker: you know, a deep topic, shall we say.
Speaker: But yeah, my journey with the education system, when I was in education, that's what it was like.
Speaker: My role in education at the moment, it's fairly self-selective in the sense that the schools that invite a poet in
Speaker: are by their very nature schools that are amenable to having a poet in so you know they tend to have a fairly progressive bent to them they tend to be schools who are willing to look at creativity and mental health the schools that aren't interested in that i don't have much experience of um other than through twitter you
Speaker: No, I would love it if you could unpack, you know, perhaps your own journey in that.
Speaker: I had pulled so many of the Twitter conversations that we do get involved in, kind of start with that seed of intelligence or testing and those kinds of things.
Speaker: And a frequent comment from you is like, if you were assessed purely on those tests or those intelligence tests,
Speaker: That is not a measure, perhaps, of your success or even of the way that you feel about yourself.
Speaker: And yet it is the way that we measure kids in so many different circumstances.
Speaker: So, yeah, feel free to go into that a little bit more in your journey.
Speaker: I mean, it's interesting because I have taken IQ tests and I don't do that well.
Speaker: Well, it's again, this is going into the technicalities of the tests, but that, you know, there's nonverbal elements and verbal elements.
Speaker: And I do well in the verbal stuff because that's my job and words and language is my life.
Speaker: But I can't do those bits with the shapes and all of that stuff.
Speaker: I'm just awful at that.
Speaker: And the notion that someone's performance on that kind of test defines their subsequent trajectory is just terrible.
Speaker: And not only that, I've actually got experience...
Speaker: Well, I spent a few years running a weekly club.
Speaker: This was when I was a resident poet in a school.
Speaker: And the club was a weekly lunch club for students with, I don't know whether you define them as disabilities or learning, you know, learning needs, shall we say.
Speaker: And when you work with poetry, it just opens up an avenue to be so imaginative and creative and express such deep feeling and
Speaker: notions and ideas that are just totally uncorrelated to how a student might perform in a standardized test.
Speaker: And I've got real firsthand experience of that disconnection.
Speaker: So it is something I feel passionate about.
Speaker: Even that notion of the IQ, the intelligence quotient somehow, you know, refers to your capacity for goodness.
Speaker: And so often we translate that into the capacity for value or, you know, your worth or what you had called that lovability, too.
Speaker: I think, you know, when I think of kids writing poetry, too, you know, I think of the lens through my own children, but...
Speaker: A little while ago, there was this poem going around from this student.
Speaker: And I don't know what the context of this book is.
Speaker: Maybe you had seen this.
Speaker: It's from a student.
Speaker: I'm assuming it's Niall.
Speaker: It's called The Tiger.
Speaker: And I don't know if you've seen this.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So let me see if I can recite that off by heart.
Speaker: I think it goes, the tiger has escaped its cage.
Speaker: No, the tiger, he destroyed his cage.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: The tiger is out.
Speaker: That's it to a T. Oh, I love it.
Speaker: And just the... I'll spend the rest of my career trying to outdo that and probably fail.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And it's so interesting that just, you know, this is not a six-year-old who has been trained in, you know, in the art of words or poetry or meter or rhythm and rhyme.
Speaker: And yet it contains all of those things and is just so pure.
Speaker: And I loved seeing the... Just seeing the...
Speaker: joy that people had from sharing, you know, adults sharing that in mass, just this most pure form of that.
Speaker: I even saw somebody who had gotten that tattooed on themselves.
Speaker: And oh, that's incredible.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it is just a testament to, you know, the power of expressiveness here.
Speaker: We might think a six year old doesn't have a lot to say or or even to contribute.
Speaker: And yet here's this thing that they've produced, you know, from from the purity of their own
Speaker: you know, experience just through the joy of the words.
Speaker: I mean, there's what, maybe a dozen words throughout that whole poem.
Speaker: And yet it's resonating with so many people who, you know, adults in London can recite it by heart.
Speaker: I mean, I want to find, I want to find Niall and talk to, talk to that young student, kind of see where they're at.
Speaker: I wonder if he's got any idea about, about that.
Speaker: The fact it's, it's resonated beyond his own book.
Speaker: I wonder if he's, he knows it's,
Speaker: it's it's been shared so widely that would be really interesting to find yeah i want to do like a where are they now for niall age six the tiger poem and get him on the get him on the podcast yeah exactly um and and i wonder too what what is the impact of having peaked at age six like that you know like if niall went on for a career as a poet you just know like i'm going to be walking in the shadow of the tiger yeah
Speaker: For the rest of my life.
Speaker: That would be the title of his autobiography, Walking in the Shadow of the Tiger.
Speaker: Walking in the Shadow of the Tiger.
Speaker: Yes, that's great.
Speaker: So I think then kind of thinking, I love kind of the perspective that you might have then, again, thinking of yourself as a young adult and then in your collegiate experience.
Speaker: And now what you see, again, kind of through the...
Speaker: through the lens of the perhaps progressive schools that you're involved in, that you're able to bring your wonderful poetry to as well, what you perhaps see as being successes in British education.
Speaker: And that could be in your experience or from what you just perceive in the policy realm or in the news world.
Speaker: And where do you see perhaps as areas of growth or areas that need to change?
Speaker: I'm not someone who does research very much about policy or that kind of thing.
Speaker: But from my experience, I perceive, and I'm sure you'll be aware of this as well, a more traditional or trad style of education is very fashionable at the moment.
Speaker: I think a lot of it, or certainly a portion of it, has its genesis in the research ed organization, which sprung up in
Speaker: Britain, but which is now worldwide.
Speaker: It has its genesis also in the current, well, they've been in power since 2010, but the Conservative government and their education ministers.
Speaker: And it seems to me like...
Speaker: the so-called traditional style of education, direct instruction, preparations for exams, standardized testing.
Speaker: It seems to me like they're fashionable at the moment.
Speaker: Maybe I only think they're fashionable because they get, you know, that's what I notice.
Speaker: But it seems to me like the, I mean, again, when I visit schools, it's fairly self-selective in the schools that I personally visit.
Speaker: But it seems like, you know,
Speaker: Yeah, there's a kind of traditional flavour of education at the moment.
Speaker: And from what I can see on social media, that seems to be fairly worldwide, not just Britain.
Speaker: But again, other people are far more qualified to answer that question than I would be.
Speaker: And it is such a curious thing.
Speaker: I think so much of how pedagogy is like kind of a society holding up a mirror to itself and kind of reflecting its own values.
Speaker: So it's really curious, I think, that
Speaker: A lot of the genesis, as you said, of that traditionalist kind of movement is reflected in a movement that calls itself research ed, which sort of takes it out of the realm of social values and puts it in this realm of objective science.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because then it says what we're doing is not just a value driven proposition.
Speaker: It's somehow rooted in it's the science that classrooms have to look like direct instruction and have to look like this.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I mean, as someone who calls themselves an artist, I do.
Speaker: I should I should preface this by saying I'm not a qualified teacher.
Speaker: So maybe my views are maybe the worth of my views on this are limited.
Speaker: But I see education as being as much an art as a science, if not more.
Speaker: And having worked with children, you know, right the way from two years old to 18 years old, you just can't replicate laboratory conditions in a classroom.
Speaker: You know, I'm sceptical of the value of applying a scientific paradigm to education.
Speaker: And that seems to be a very fashionable paradigm at the moment.
Speaker: Since you've hedged yourself so much on speaking as authority on classrooms and education, I am really excited then for you to get to share, you know, what your expertise then is in creating wonderful, punny poetry.
Speaker: And I don't know if you had picked a selection for our listeners and things, but I'd love it if you could lay some on us.
Speaker: Yeah, so I'll just say, I'll just recite it.
Speaker: I mean, I should say I haven't planned, you know, I wasn't rehearsing.
Speaker: I didn't know I was going to be asked to do this.
Speaker: This is a poem which is from my first book, which is called I Don't Like Poetry.
Speaker: And it's written for people who don't like poetry and also for people who do like poetry.
Speaker: And it's based on a true story.
Speaker: It's something that happened to me when I was about eight years old.
Speaker: And it's called The Most Embarrassing Moment Ever.
Speaker: And it goes like this.
Speaker: The most embarrassing moment ever was at the beach.
Speaker: I ran up to my mum, wrapped my arms around her legs and cuddled her tight, screaming, Mummy!
Speaker: Mummy!
Speaker: But then I looked into the distance and I saw my mum and my dad and my sister.
Speaker: And they were pointing at me and laughing.
Speaker: And the lady I've been cuddling started laughing too and said, I think you've got the wrong lady, little boy.
Speaker: And I wanted the sea to wash over me like a little sandcastle, like a shallow rock pool.
Speaker: And I decided that I would never cuddle anyone again.
Speaker: There we go.
Speaker: And to this day, I have kept that promise.
Speaker: I haven't really kept the promise, but the rest of the poem is true.
Speaker: Oh, that's wonderful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: A life without cuddles from there.
Speaker: That's for that's great.
Speaker: Or at least without cuddles that I initiate.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Are there are there any others that you've committed to memory that you want to that you want to share?
Speaker: Yeah, I'll do a rhyming one because I, firstly, I love to rhyme.
Speaker: I love playing with words and playing with language.
Speaker: So I love rhyme, but I always say when I do workshops that poems do not have to rhyme because if children, especially younger children, if they try and rhyme, then they'll spend the whole hour trying to rhyme a few words together and it might not make much sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I'm very careful to share non-rhyming poems as well as rhyming poems.
Speaker: This is a short rhyming poem.
Speaker: Again, from my first book, I Don't Like Poetry.
Speaker: And it's called Warrior King.
Speaker: And it goes like this.
Speaker: I'm the warrior king of the garden.
Speaker: I'm a revolutionary with my gun and my axe and my telescope and my lookout in the tree.
Speaker: I'm the warrior king of the garden.
Speaker: I'm a soldier, a fighter, a winner.
Speaker: I don't take orders from anyone until mum calls me in for dinner.
Speaker: I love it because, you know, the, the, the buildup is like, you're going on this big adventure and then suddenly mom intervenes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think, um, I, I, one of my avenues into poetry was, was through comedy.
Speaker: Uh, I'm a huge aficionado of standup comedy.
Speaker: I, I, it's one of my favorite art forms to go and see.
Speaker: Um, so a lot of my poems are, are jokes effectively with a punchline.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Fairly lightweight punchline sometimes.
Speaker: But yeah, a lot of my poems do have that build up and then the reveal at the end.
Speaker: You know, this maybe wasn't something that I'm thinking about it here just spontaneously, right?
Speaker: Imagine having a spontaneous thought.
Speaker: But my thought is, you know, I don't know if your advice per se is for people to pursue your line of work in particular, only because, you know, that's not how you came into this, you know, the powerful kind of purpose-driven work that kind of aligns with the way that you see yourself and see the world.
Speaker: It's hard to maybe posit a one-size-fits-all approach to
Speaker: to that kind of thing.
Speaker: But I don't know, what do you say about people who maybe find themselves in your similar position that you were in, perhaps in academia or in stressful, unfulfilling work and kind of say, okay, what kinds of things can I do to help align myself with where I really see myself?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, my situation is probably... I don't know how typical it would be of a general situation, but I've been lucky enough to have really supportive, stable family and people around me who give me love and support.
Speaker: I have, for many years, on and off, had...
Speaker: had therapy, which has been hugely, well, life-saving, really.
Speaker: So I would say try and surround yourself with people who believe in you because it's almost impossible to do it on your own.
Speaker: And I'm really lucky and fortunate to be able to have those people.
Speaker: I would also say it's difficult being, I'm self-employed and it's difficult because if I'm ill, I don't get paid.
Speaker: And it's not for everyone.
Speaker: My wife is very, she needs that regular paycheck.
Speaker: That's just her mentality.
Speaker: But I, I'm kind of quite spontaneous with my, with, with the nature of my work.
Speaker: That's so I'm, I'm okay not knowing what I'm going to be doing in a month's time.
Speaker: But yeah,
Speaker: you know, a lot of people, probably the majority of people wouldn't be comfortable in that kind of situation.
Speaker: If you hear guitar noises, my son has found the guitars that we hang up because I have the wall hangers for a couple of my acoustics.
Speaker: So he has found that now as his thing.
Speaker: So, I mean, it has just been chaotic on my end.
Speaker: But is there anything that you think I missed that you want to, that you feel like is worth adding on to this that we didn't get a chance to talk about or that I didn't think about?
Speaker: I think we met, I can't remember when it was, but it was on Twitter.
Speaker: And it was a few months before the start of the pandemic, I think.
Speaker: And it was actually a really crucial time for me, really, because I was getting really psychologically, well, I don't know what the word is, distressed is too strong, but dissatisfied, maybe.
Speaker: That doesn't, you know, I was being ground down a bit by what I perceived to be the traditionalism.
Speaker: And then I can't remember how I happened upon you, but I was just opened up to a whole world of progressive education, which I didn't really know existed.
Speaker: So, you know, people who don't view IQ testing as the be all and end all people who don't necessarily have much respect for standardized tests.
Speaker: people who see beyond grades, people who value creativity.
Speaker: And so I guess you were kind of my gateway into encountering that whole community.
Speaker: And it's been really, it's been really great.
Speaker: One quick thing.
Speaker: So I grew up kind of just playing a lot of music and being very musical.
Speaker: So we also have a nice little keyboard in the background.
Speaker: Oh, lovely.
Speaker: And so, yeah, perhaps you'll be able to hear those wonderful – we just have a basement.
Speaker: That's what this curtain is hiding, is a basement full of musical instruments and just play things and stuff.
Speaker: So my son is just going from bass to guitar to keyboard and just making – I was in a band a long time ago.
Speaker: So, yeah, I was a bassist and singer in a punk band.
Speaker: Oh!
Speaker: That is the most, you know, that is the least surprising thing I think I've ever heard from you.
Speaker: So that would be 15 years ago.
Speaker: And if anyone wants to check it out, it's the barbacle communication problem.
Speaker: And we're on YouTube.
Speaker: So if you just look for me on YouTube, there are, I think, two songs which we recorded 15 years ago.
Speaker: I'll tell you, the irony of having an award-winning poet in a band called Communication Problem is not lost on me.
Speaker: Maybe that's British humor, I suppose.
Speaker: You know, I I'm just I'm thankful for you for for sticking with me through that.
Speaker: This is the most chaotic recording experience of my entire life.
Speaker: So I'm a little bit proud.
Speaker: Well, I think, yeah, no, that's that's good.
Speaker: I'm enjoying it.
Speaker: I'm enjoying the chaos.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So and I just, you know, appreciate you generally.
Speaker: You know, again, I might have said it, but but punny, prolific.
Speaker: It kind of seems like there's a poem for every event and day of the week.
Speaker: And I just love it if I, whenever I end up posting something and it must get picked up in your feed, usually I can find a poem that either gives it some kind of perspective or at least lets me smile a little bit about that situation.
Speaker: Oh, well, that's, if I can bring a smile to people, then that's sort of 90% of my job done, I think.
Speaker: So I really appreciate that.
Speaker: Well, thanks again, Joshua.
Speaker: Pleasure.
Speaker: Thank you again for listening to Human Restoration Project's podcast.
Speaker: I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to push the progressive envelope of education.
Speaker: You can learn more about progressive education, support our cause, and stay tuned to this podcast and other updates on our website at humanrestorationproject.org.
