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Ep. 32. Kai Spellmeier, Boy Friends
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In today's episode I talk to Kai Spellmeier about his new novel Boy Friends (Bloomsbury 2026).
Kai Spellmeier is a German author currently living in England. He has published several books in Germany, including YA novels and non-fiction, and he has been blogging about books on Instagram for many years. Boy Friends is his English language debut.
Book Recs:
- Nina LaCour, Everything Leads to You
- Cameron Sullivan, The Red Winter
- Douglas Stewart, John of John
Follow the show on Instagramand subscribe to the Substack for transcripts and more links. Please leave feedback here. Get more from Kai at his Instagram.
Produced, hosted, and edited by Chris Lloyd.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Books of Close'
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Books of Close. I'm Chris Lloyd. This is the close reading show for writers, readers and anyone that wants to know how texts get made.
Introducing Kai Spellmeyer and 'Boyfriends'
00:00:11
Speaker
Today I talk to Kai Spellmeyer about his novel Boy Friends, gap which is out this month from Bloomsbury.
00:00:19
Speaker
And we're going to talk about the opening of the prologue today. So get your book ready.
Recording Challenges and Kai's Background
00:00:24
Speaker
I should say we were gonna do this in person because we live like two streets away from one another, but our animals kind of made that impossible. So we're doing online, but we are very close. So I'm kind of waving vaguely at you.
00:00:38
Speaker
Kai is a German author currently living in England. He has published several books in Germany, including YA novels and nonfiction. And he has been blogging about books on Instagram for many years. Boyfriends is his English language debut.
00:00:50
Speaker
Welcome, Kai. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be doing this. Actually, that last line about this is your English language debut. I do want to talk about that later. I didn't write that down as a question, but I do want to fold that a little bit later.
00:01:03
Speaker
Any questions allowed? Yeah. OK, well, maybe you not any. No, you can ask anything.
What is Close Reading?
00:01:09
Speaker
I can i can answer in any way I want. That's true. um for people that know us, we both have spicy literary opinions. So we'll we'll try and keep them. We maybe shouldn't, but we so we still have them. Yeah, we have them. Maybe they won't always be on air. But anyway, ah we'll see where we go.
00:01:30
Speaker
Let me start where we always start with everyone, which is how you feel about close reading. i know when we first suggested this, you were like, I'm excited. And the closer we've gotten, you're like, oh, no, we're going to read my book closely.
00:01:42
Speaker
How do you feel about it as a practice or as a process? I mean, i only really know it, like, from school and uni. So it's not something I've ever done really outside of that space. It's always been in classrooms.
00:01:56
Speaker
And I do remember... Those classes quite distinctly where less than half of the room had actually sort of read the passage. And then like the lecturer is trying to get a conversation going and keeps repeating the same questions and nobody's really willing to say anything. So that's definitely one. But then also, I mean, there's many examples where I i so appreciated having that.
Genre Analysis and Marketing
00:02:23
Speaker
in-depth conversation at like a really short passage and seeing it in a new light. So i actually find it quite fascinating. And yeah, the idea of someone doing that with my writing does make me uncomfortable, mostly because someone's, you know,
00:02:44
Speaker
prodding my sentences and my words and my language and I'm like I'm not will it hold up what are they going to do with that I think that's more so the idea like it feels like it's not but it feels like a test of quality and I'm like all about feels and an atmosphere and less about less about accuracy maybe sometimes. Yeah, that would be interesting.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting you said that. Because I think close reading can often be about feels and atmosphere, right? It's like, wait, this should yeah like this word is kind of like reminiscent of this, or this kind of sounds like this. I think often when close reading is taught at school, there's a a kind of sense that like this is the answer, right? That...
00:03:30
Speaker
This word is because it means X, as opposed to it kind of signifies this thing, but it also signifies this other thing. so I'm always interested in mood, right? And tone and like the vibe. Yeah, I think it's also, I guess, the texts we read and looked at were not...
00:03:48
Speaker
commercial romance novels or or even YA novels, both of which, you know, applies to my book. And so was, you know, you were looking at Charles Dickens or a literary novels and not books that were written, or you know, I guess they were. Charles Dickens wrote for, for I guess, the Masters in Entertainment, but um not not commercial romance that was written purely for entertainment. So that's not something that we really considered too much at uni. So i kind of like the idea of doing that with like with super commercial books.
00:04:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's why I was like interested to do this with you because, I mean, I'm not a big YA reader, right? i I guess it's just not a genre pitched at me, right, as a person. To be fair, let's go with, let let's I think the strategy for Boyfriends has been, let's call it a romance novel because YA is struggling so much. Yeah. because it's not romanticy. So it's not it's not a Sarah J. Maas, A Court of Thorns and Roses. So the the more accessible angle for a wider audience is just calling it a romance rather than o why a YA novel because that pigeonholes it more. yeah
00:05:04
Speaker
So at least on um from a marketing perspective, we're we're going with this is a romance, you guys. Okay, this is a romance. And even that's interesting, right? Because, you know, not to get too spicy with the publishing industry, but, you know, labeling a book is so interesting, right? That this is a romance or this is a YA before it is just a novel, right? Because I kind of like flew through this when I read it very happily. So um I think you were nervous when you gave me that copy. But I was like, this always it's always interesting when you read a book by someone you know, but you're like, Exactly. what is getting interesting and it's scary. So, I mean, i do that. I get scared when when when when people I know and like hand me their books. I'm like, oh God, I hope yeah i hope i hope i can say something good about this. But it's such like a...
00:05:52
Speaker
fast read it's like you really like settle into the characters very quickly and as I was reading I was thinking about genre and I was like huh what can you get away with I guess right in a YA book or a romance book like what are the kind of codes or the markers you need to hit the language is not particularly different from like other like literary fiction, right? It's not massively different. It's not like you're using, you're not dumbing down language in any way. no in terms of plot, like, yes, there is like a certain kind of genre arc, but like you can find that in Sally Rooney. do you know what mean? Like there's- True. When you start to dig down into like, I was really trying to prod, like, where are the differences between this and then other literary fiction that might have romance in it or like a romance story. Yeah. And I would say that this book is like cuter than like some literary fiction, right? It's meant to be so sweet. it is It is sweet and it is like heartwarming. And I wonder whether that's like an interesting difference, right? The literary fiction is like, it must be difficult or serious or...
Reading and Analyzing 'Boyfriends' Prologue
00:06:55
Speaker
Yeah, to be like too elevated to like a certain, I guess, language while also keeping maybe the cliches of the Romans genre. And they probably don't merge that well, but I'm sure it can be done. And then by then I think we automatically sort of, if it's a very literary book, but it suddenly uses...
00:07:21
Speaker
typical romance things, I guess that then moves it into more of an upmarket space. Maybe that makes it feel less literary, but I'm sure there's plenty of literary romance out there that I just can't think of right now.
00:07:35
Speaker
ah Yeah. Yeah. No, I've been like racking my brain about like... Yeah, especially like thinking, and I'm thinking about, you know, feel-good romance, like uplifting romance in the literary space, because there's because there's plenty of tragic literary love stories and plenty of tragic gay literary love stories, but maybe not so many that really balance the literary and the and and the positive uplifting feels of a romance. Yeah.
00:08:04
Speaker
ah yeah I've actually been, this is interesting because I've been trying to read more romances that feel elevated like not that that aren't just, you know, the beach reads where I shut my brain off, but some that really give me like a really strong sense of quality. And this is not a word I'm using to judge, but just that give me like a really lovely language while also a strong romantic atmosphere. And I've been, especially also in the air plus,
00:08:41
Speaker
something uplifting so and and and I've not been having the easiest time finding that necessarily m okay listeners please comment with those books if you know those books that are not flagged as or kind of like marketed as like romance but are doing other things or yeah send them our way we're we're interested we want to build a reading list because yes I think if you didn't know if it didn't have this cover or it didn't have this particular kind of marketing like what would one think about it right yeah and that and that's why i kind of want to do close reading because i'm like when you just focus on the language what do you see what do you notice what true what what comes out right i want to talk about the prologue because it really does set the scene for so much of what you're doing in this book why don't you read it first the extract we're gonna look at and then then we can like dig into a bit more yeah yeah
00:09:35
Speaker
I've read this only like once or five I've only done one event. So this is not a premiere, but it's a podcast premiere. So yeah, here we go.
00:09:48
Speaker
It's 12 minutes past five on a Sunday morning when I realize I'm in love with Simo Larka. The thought that I love my best friend arrives fully formed in my head like it's always been there.
00:10:00
Speaker
A piece of knowledge I've held for so long yet always chosen to ignore. There's no denying it. I'm in love with him. And suddenly the truth isn't scary at all.
Narrative Techniques in 'Boyfriends'
00:10:12
Speaker
It's just fact. Next to me on the sofa, Seymour sighs in his sleep. His warmth seeps into my skin, his breath the only sound. We're sprawled out on the L-shaped couch, my legs facing one wall, his legs another, our heads meet in the middle.
00:10:29
Speaker
From where I lie, propped up on a bunch of cushions, my gaze falls across his sleeping form. His chest lifts and breath escapes through his parted lips.
00:10:40
Speaker
And maybe it's the first rays of the rising sun that press against the curtains and fill the lounge with a cool glow. Or it's ten years of soaking up his features, but Simo's lips are what a renaissance painter's wet dreams are made of.
00:10:55
Speaker
The bottom lip is full and soft, while the upper lip is two sharp lines arcing into a cupid's bow. I have never allowed myself to think about kissing them.
00:11:06
Speaker
to imagine their weight on mine. That's asking for heartbreak, and I don't have a single masochistic bone in my body. But in the early morning, with the world still caught in a dream, and Simo dreaming next to me, I see clearly.
00:11:21
Speaker
For the first time, loving him comes easy. Thank you so much. Again, when I'm talking about mood, right, and you you said to about like vibes, we shift we do shift in registers here a few times, and I want to talk a bit about that.
00:11:35
Speaker
The big thing is that this is present. This is a present tense book, right? Like it's all in the present and it's first person. If you haven't read yet, listeners, we do switch first person, right? So each chapter alternates between the two boys.
00:11:50
Speaker
And I want to ask, was that always the case? Did you always want to make sure you wrote from both of their perspectives or was there ever a thought that it wouldn't be? I think it was always going to be dual POV.
00:12:02
Speaker
It's something I did before with a similar romance, but it was Christmas themed. And the change there, I think, is that it was third person. So this being first person,
00:12:17
Speaker
is the difference to the other romance. And that, I would say, makes it more immediate, but it also makes it harder because you have to think a lot more about voice because you it's it's such a personal thing to each character. Yeah.
00:12:37
Speaker
And no, I always wanted, I think I do love the the dual POV in a romance. It is also harder with when when when both main when both characters in that POV are the same sex.
00:12:52
Speaker
I think, you know, if it was like a man and a woman, you'd you'd fight automatically have something more distinct. And the he she's would just make it much clearer who's who's talking or who who's being talked about. So that's something that that is trickier when suddenly, you know, there's a lot of male or only male characters in in one room. and you kind of, op you know, even they're just making out like if if they're kissing, like who's who, who whose hand is and in whose face? Yeah. That makes it a bit harder. But generally, I think I really like the dynamic because you get to see into both characters' heads and you get to kind of have that immediate emotion. And at the same time, as a writer, you have to figure out how you don't give too much away and don't make things too obvious, both for the reader and for the characters. Right.
00:13:52
Speaker
Because if we know so much, then is there still a story? Like you still have to hold things back from the characters in order to keep it moving forward. And at the same time, that change of from that change of perspective propels you forward too. Like it forces me to switch perspective, to...
00:14:13
Speaker
switch story elements and figure out a way to keep things moving and forces me to keep things moving. And so in that way, I find it quite helpful.
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah. Because even this bit of knowledge, right? Like I realize I'm in love with Simo Loka. Like that is something... that he doesn't share immediately, right? like it So like we are you know, there's a lot of dramatic irony, I guess you would call it. We know things that like one of the two doesn't know. They're often sharing stuff with us, the reader, that like the other one doesn't know. So I think you can play a lot with those tensions, which is quite nice.
00:14:51
Speaker
So interested that as like a kind of setup between the two boys. But also like, I've talked a lot about present tense narratives on this podcast, but like you've got that kind of present immediacy, but also the book starts with like, it's 12 minutes past five. The real precision of 12 minutes past five when I realize. And yeah, I just think the opening line of the book is always like very important, right? It's telling us all the stuff. And it's telling us...
00:15:20
Speaker
this moment of like the precise moment when I realized something and I'm going to talk about realize as well in a minute, but also like with Simo Lorca and I'm like, Oh, you're also telling us something there, right? Like Simo is like one named Lorca is already conjuring up, as you said, that a kind of like poetic tradition, a Spanish tradition, like a literary tradition.
00:15:42
Speaker
and I feel like you're telegraphing something to us there already about who this character might be or what they might like, what might be coded there. Yeah, I think my intention with the first sentence, A, Emma was like, why do you bother writing a book when your first sentence is boring? You need to, like, in this world where everyone's fighting for attention, yeah.
00:16:06
Speaker
if If your first page is lame, why would someone continue reading? ye So I'm like, my goal is always to hook someone from the first sentence. And i want that I actively want to keep that really, really interesting. And so I wanted, I think when we were, the prologue, I think was maybe the first thing I wrote and the first sort of complete section.
00:16:31
Speaker
And that mood and that setting were always very, very strong and always very clear in my mind. And it might have been a bit longer. So we cut it down a little and really... to really get everything in and make it as clear and as concise as possible. But generally, not it hasn't changed too much. And I wanted to get across in the very first sentence that he's in love with his best friend, which I guess we've split over two sentences in this case. But I instantly wanted you to get the feeling of a romance and and longing.
00:17:06
Speaker
And again, that question of, I guess the question of why is it 5 12 a.m that this is happening yeah and like i realize which is like this kind of sudden bit of knowledge right and then the second sentence the thought that i love my best friend arrived arrives fully formed again it's kind of passive right like he's got nothing to do with it it just comes and then it's a piece of knowledge i've held for so long and then a few sentences later it's just fact
00:17:37
Speaker
It's really interesting to me that all of these words are about like the psychological element, not the less emotional. as Not that emotions aren't psychological too, but you know what I mean, right? it Like it lingers in the brain rather than like the body.
00:17:51
Speaker
And then as the the prologue moves on, we then move way into the body, right? He's just like endlessly focused with Simo's like his physical form, right? But it's really interesting that we start with like, realize it like just the thought rather than the feeling.
00:18:06
Speaker
And I feel like that's unexpected. I guess this feels, weirdly, this feels like I'm being quizzed. No, no, not quizzing, no. And I know this is not what's happening, but it's like, okay, so let's find an answer. I would say, i think it makes sense in the way that the emotional side of things for Luca, our main character, that...
00:18:28
Speaker
that feeling has always existed. And there at this point, they've been friends for 10 years. They've known each other for 10 years and pretty much the entire time Luke has been in love with Simo, but he's buried those feelings deep.
00:18:43
Speaker
And so finally, I think there's an epiphany of, you know, it it reaches his mind too. It's not just his gut or his heart or whatever.
00:18:54
Speaker
It, it, it, a picture clarifies. And I guess, yes, very much so. That's some that's a mental process rather than an emotional one.
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah, I do not mean to quiz you. that more just I'm aware, I know. it's It's just like, yeah, thinking about it this deeply is quite fascinating. And and also, yeah, helping helping me and listen to my own text there. But yeah, know it is that that's interesting, right? This kind of translation of like feeling, which has always been there into how do I
Genre Conventions and Originality
00:19:27
Speaker
make sense of that in my brain? Yes. And like, Luca is fully like, wait, this is a new thought. Now it has language, right? Correct. For those that haven't read it yet, like language plays a big part in the book is in the very like opening chapter, something is written down that kind of blows the whole thing open.
00:19:48
Speaker
um i won't tell you, you should go read it. i don't want to spoil anything in this book. There are twists to everybody. There are multiple twists. I mean, if we need to, we can talk about what happens in chapter one. after I know, but like, I just want people to to enjoy it when it happens. Yes. um So this paragraph kind of like, you've got these two really long sentences, then a piece of knowledge I've held for so long, yet always chosen to ignore. so you've got these kind of like quite unfolding thoughts. And then there's no denying it. Full stop.
00:20:18
Speaker
I'm in love with him. Full stop. And suddenly the truth is just fact, full stop. You get these sudden like three very short, sharp sentences where... um The drama. Yeah, the drama, but also like it echoes the kind of solidity and certainty.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yes. Right. It's not a kind of like rambling thought sentence. It's just like, there's no denying it. Full stop. It's it's just fact. And you're like, just fact. It made me think like facts aren't feelings, Luca, but anyway, um my feelings aren't not good but the kind of like definitiveness that I think is part of this strong opening, because I guess even by the end of that paragraph,
00:20:54
Speaker
we know as readers, hmm, okay, well, there's gonna be tension here, right? Like suddenly this person knows something about his friend that probably maybe won't be reciprocated, maybe won't, can't be articulated. yeah um Luckily, there aren't many homophobes in this book, everybody. So thank God for that. Like, this is a world in which a boy being gay is like fine for his family or for his father. um And that's lovely. And his mother, who's kind of in the book, but not really. Luckily, you don't have to deal with that, which I appreciated.
00:21:23
Speaker
again, like a kind of maybe a genre difference, right? Like the tension isn't, will everybody accept him, you know, for who he is kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah, that sort of element has taken out I think because when especially queer young adult literature became a thing, became widely read and had a breakthrough, and i potentially I think maybe that happened before that, that was deeply and widely explored in literary fiction, I feel like. Maybe there was a bit of a knock-on effect there. But the first few novels, and a lot of them that came out, were very much about exploring your queer self and realizing that that queerness. And while both my characters do that to a degree, that was not what I wanted to focus on.
00:22:16
Speaker
And I wanted to take that... element of deep angst about sexuality out, especially because the relationship between which we don't see here between Luca, um who's speaking in the prologue, and his dad, who's also who's who's a gay man, and who has never hidden this from his son. so I think for me, I've always wanted that clarity and that ease around that element of of Luca's identity and his dad's identity and and how that shapes their relationship.
00:22:54
Speaker
Again, I mean, sexuality does play a big factor for this entire novel, for this entire story. I mean, there's a reason why Luca has tried to bury those feelings and not realize them and not tell Simo about it.
00:23:09
Speaker
But overall, I didn't want that to be a traditional coming of sexuality story. Yeah, there's ah there's a different like focus. And I appreciated that, actually, that drama isn't that. The drama is how did friends navigate friendship or not, or is it something more? Also the dad character. I love the dad.
00:23:29
Speaker
I love the dad. Whenever this becomes a movie or a TV series, which I'm sure it will. like That needs to be well cast. That man needs to be very attractive. In my head, I know who plays that person. they're like you know I want to know i want to know who you think plays that person.
00:23:44
Speaker
I would want like a Jonathan Bailey-esque person who played that man, like slightly younger, maybe even a ah Luke Evans, possibly. Yeah. He's just a beautiful character. Like every scene, I was like, this man is so lovely. um Again, like ah and another kind of emotional response to a book that I guess I don't have all the time.
00:24:06
Speaker
I've said on this show many times, like I don't really care about character. Like I'm not. And I love character. Yeah. Yeah. like I could read a book where like I hate everyone in it, but i don't I can still power through because I care about so many other things. But in here, I was like, oh, I'm really drawn to... like you You get sucked into those dynamics in quite an interesting way. yeah yeah The second paragraph, so we've moved from the first paragraph, which is kind of like realization paragraph. Second is where we start to shift towards Luca now looking at Simo, paying attention to like his every movement. Next to me on the sofa, Simo slides in his sleep. His warmth seeps into my skin. His breath in his sound, whisper all out on the side couch.
00:24:44
Speaker
So much sibilance here, right? Intentional. Like so many soft S sounds. Yes. Whisper all out my legs facing one wall. His legs on the other. Our heads meet in the middle. You've got these four clauses across the sentence, right?
00:24:58
Speaker
kind of break it up in a in a way that almost models their bodies like intersecting, I think, in a way, right? The L shape, the kind of overlaps, if you like, of their bodies. And again, my gaze falls across his sleeping form. Again, passive voice, right? I think Luca is not always aware of the he's the one doing things.
00:25:17
Speaker
right And then there's stuff that comes later on that might clarify why that's the case. But, you know, there is so much here that it's like, it's just happening. My gaze falls across it. Like, no, you're looking at him. lu Like ah that passivity or that kind of, it's just taking over me is quite funny. I'm like, girl, you know, you're looking at him.
00:25:35
Speaker
right Yeah, but ah sometimes it's, you're completely right. I think sometimes it's also just a way of how can I make I'm looking at him sound nice yeah and romantic specifically. and yeah And so my gaze falls across his sleeping form, just, I guess, draws an image. Yeah. That's that's that's quite soft or gentle or sweeping.
00:26:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And we get way more of that right in the third paragraph where we get even more into the body. Right. Like his chest, his parted lips. The lips are like focused on for quite a bit here.
00:26:16
Speaker
course. Like, of course. And I think it's funny, right? You go from and maybe it's the first rays of the rising sun that press against the curtains and fill the lounge with a cool glow. long claws or it's 10 years of soaking up his features and you so like these are very like rich kind of romantic lines but Simo's lips are what are renaissance painters wet dreams are made of I'm like whoa oh It's the first moment, I think. I mean, I guess best friend is like a phrase that might age the voice of the character, right? In the second sentence. Maybe, maybe not. Like it's the first moment where I'm like, ooh, who's to, again, I know that it's a teenager. This is about a 12 year old, yeah. Right, right. Exactly. It's not a 12 year old, but equally, it's not a 25 year old or a 30 year old. Right. Yes.
00:27:03
Speaker
And ah you know that because of the cover and the kind of marketing copy. But if you do like proper close reading where there's no context to this and I didn't tell you what the title was, I didn't tell you anything about it. It's that moment there that kind of moves from the hyper romantic, the rising sun, the curtains. Yeah.
00:27:20
Speaker
to a renaissance painter's wet dreams where i was like lol yes and i think kind of i committed to the cliche there and i think that's also the nice thing about romance that you don't you're not writing something revolutionary and insanely original because you follow you follow the genre conventions and so i was like do you know what we're going with the renaissance painters like lips here we're going with that and and and i'm and i'm happy with that yeah and i always whenever i read it i can't help but
00:27:54
Speaker
smile because i i bet either like someone who's reading this is like rolling their eyes or they're like or they're like oh this is if if you know if it's a young reader who's coming across romans maybe for the first time or they're like oh this sounds nice or like they're they're doing both they're like rolling their eyes but actually maybe it's charming hopefully so i i think that's always also my reaction of like okay yeah we're we're going all in and i can't help but grin a little with yeah Yeah, like you're going all in, but there's a kind of like playfulness, right? Yeah. the Wet dream.
00:28:31
Speaker
And, you know, even the bottom lip is full and soft, while the upper lip is two sharp lines arcing into Cupid's bow, right? You're like, here are the genre codes. Yes. yeah I guess my question as I was thinking about this in our conversation is, as you're writing, how much are those conventions worth?
00:28:48
Speaker
like present in your head during
Writing Process and Teen Emotions
00:28:50
Speaker
sentence making? Like how much is like, I'm writing the story I need to write versus I feel like I need to get in something, not in a strategic way. I don't mean it that way, but rather like, does this sentence do what I want it to do within the genre versus am I just writing the story? If you know what I mean?
00:29:10
Speaker
Tricky. I think with romance, one of the first, like when I worked in my first, when my agent edited for the first time, my manuscript, and it was a romance manuscript, the biggest feedback, the line that kept repeating itself was up the romance, up the romance, up the romance.
00:29:28
Speaker
And so now that is so ingrained when I'm writing a romance, that I think about it a lot. And I'm always like, how can I increase the longing and the tension and the desire and the the romantic atmosphere?
00:29:51
Speaker
And I think with that comes a certain poetry, melody. So I think it's less... I think I go with the flow ah very much. And I go with that mood and I try to commit to that. So it's less of an active...
00:30:09
Speaker
I'm putting these words here. I think to me, it's also always like a sound and a flow. it Does the there's the melody of the sentence work well with this? And um it's often feeling based and less less a strategic word placement, or maybe the the strategy comes through the through the feeling. Yeah.
00:30:31
Speaker
I don't if that makes any sense. no It definitely does. I'm like, it's just something I guess I've not thought about in in genre that way. I mean, obviously don't write like this kind of stuff. So I'm not, I'm never really thinking about how that language is landing or the kind of images that, you know, you want to use images that your readers are expecting in a way, but then at the same time you want to give like a twist on it or like new kind. Exactly. No, I do. i you're You're sort of aware that you're moving within conventions and And that is helpful and that is fun because everyone knows what we're in for, but I also want to give it fresh twist within that. And I do want to keep the surprises coming and just keep someone invested in in that story the way I am invested in that story. And so there's definitely always a an idea of how
00:31:24
Speaker
How do I keep this immersive? Yeah, that then, so like we've got paragraph one, the thought, paragraph two, just like the present moment, paragraph three, the focus on the lips. Then paragraph four is kind of we zoom back out again, right?
00:31:42
Speaker
Luca says, I've never allowed myself to think about kissing them. It's like, okay, so now we're in... what is the danger territory, right? Like what is the obstruction here? Because so far we've been like, we're just in full, everything's beautiful. Yes, exactly. To imagine their weight on mine, that's asking for heartbreak and I don't have a single masochistic bone in my body.
00:32:03
Speaker
Not entirely sure that's true, Luca, but anyway, we'll come, we'll, we'll, you know, read the book. They lie to themselves a lot. Yeah, oh, they really do. And you you so you suddenly get like, the what is the tension that might be driving the rest of the plot? Yeah.
00:32:16
Speaker
But it but and there's like that lovely but in the early morning comma with the world still caught in a dream and Simo dreaming next to me comma I see clearly for the first time loving him comes easy. So like even there, like the tension is set up, but he's like, you know what?
00:32:34
Speaker
it's 12 past five. We don't need to get into that just yet. Like, can this moment just be? The prologue does go on a bit more, but you do get the kind of setup of romance, presentness, the voice, the gaze, I guess, right? Like the looking, they're always like looking at each other trying to figure out like what the other one is thinking, feeling, doing.
00:32:57
Speaker
It's nonstop just like staring at each other and trying to pretend like that's a romance for you. Yeah. yes But like, I'm not looking at you in that way, honest. And yeah, I just think it's like an interesting way of kind of like balancing both.
00:33:08
Speaker
You want to give your readers the kind of like richness of this interior life. at the same time, you're gonna have to put roadblocks in the way, right? as that like There have got to be hurdles.
00:33:18
Speaker
And there are more hurdles than you think, readers. So many. I mean, especially when you're a teenager, I think that's what what makes it more fun. You're like, God, what's going on with you? That's a lot of emotions and feelings for one little teenage buddy. Yes.
00:33:33
Speaker
Did you um find that easy, tapping back into that teenage self? I think so. Yeah, I i do always, I think writing for, and we're we're writing for children. I mean, we're we're also writing for Very much there's a massive audience of of adult readers that love young adult and new adult and crossover and whatever that is But at the end of the day, YA should be for teen readers. So I think I do always question, is that really how what how a teenager would act or think? And I think a little bit of freedom comes with this is fiction, this is a story.
00:34:13
Speaker
And at the same time, you want readers of any age, really, to be able to relate. And I think it does help that as a young person, feelings are so intense and small things turn into like a big drama. Yeah.
00:34:33
Speaker
And emotions are so heightened. And so I think especially writing young people in love, I think comes with a freedom where that maybe adult romance in that way doesn't have because you're like, you're 30 years old, you're being an idiot.
00:34:51
Speaker
Like, this is stupid. And, and you know, with teenagers, they they can get away with that because they don't have things figured out even lesser than adults. So, you know. Yeah. um And I think that makes it quite nice. Yeah.
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah. Something you can lean into. Yeah. you know, from my old vantage point, as I'm older than you. Do you want me to stop you there? no, no. Do you want to interrupt and be like, you're not old.
00:35:19
Speaker
We often say that about teenagers, right? Like they feel everything more intensely, but I'm like, I don't know, have you met adults?
Writing in English as a Second Language
00:35:25
Speaker
Like adults are full of feelings. We just code them differently. my God, of course. Yeah. There is a way, as you say, like you can be more transparent about that in the writing, right? It can be, the narrator can be far more forthcoming about those kind of workings, those machinations, if you like. Yeah. I think the other thing is also that I think teenagers and generally humans are quite messy and they don't make sense. But if you're writing, you know, such immediate characters, especially for younger audience, you very much, you're forced to explain them to the readers. And I think that's where I sometimes struggled where, for example, Luca is vegetarian. And there were certain several times my editor was like, oh, or even the copy editor was like, oh, you should, shouldn't you explain that here? Like, why is he not eating that meat? And I'm like, no, I don't want to like, that's where there were moments where like, I don't want to have to dumb it down. I don't want to have to state something obvious. Like someone can draw their own conclusion as to why he's not touching the steak. You know, I think that's sometimes where I'm, I'm thinking, hey, I don't,
00:36:41
Speaker
no, these are teenage readers, they're not stupid and they don't want to be talked to, like they don't understand things. yeah And so you're forced to make things really clear, but at the same time, you're meant to leave room for interpretation and that can be tricky. But I'm just aware of the fact that I don't want to i don't want to talk down, yeah especially to a young audience. Yeah, for sure.
00:37:10
Speaker
i want to transition to talking about your writing practice a little bit. And I said this earlier about you're writing in a second language in English. This is your first book in English. And you're already battling, as we've just talked about, kind of like genre codes, convention codes, like writing for a particular audience. Like there are already quite a few things that you're having to like navigate.
00:37:31
Speaker
How is writing in a second language, first of all, and how is doing a particular genre in a second language? Is that easier, harder? Maybe maybe neither, but... So I learned English in school yeah as a teenager.
00:37:46
Speaker
We did very much, I distinctly remember learning like colours and names for like fruit in so in in in kindergarten when I was like... you know, five, six, I very, very much, but we only learned sort of grammar really when we were 10, 11 years old and we were in high school and that's when the proper language classes happened. And then I, I think for me, I started reading in English because ai was impatient with how slowly,
00:38:15
Speaker
some of my favorite series were being translated. And also I realized that there was, I wanted to see queer characters in my books and I really struggled finding them in German. So they were somehow easier to find in in English great language books.
00:38:33
Speaker
And I think that's so, that's why language and and reading and stories have always, I think, been quite interlinked with me. And so I think that's why also I i am drawn to writing for YA audience. And so I think it is easier to make English sound nice, melodic, poetic than German.
00:38:57
Speaker
she because you Not that it's not possible in German. I just think it takes more skill. It's harder to put that language into something that sounds beautiful and poetic, not because it's not, just because, yeah I don't know. i think i think it's I think it's harder for whatever reason. And so I think having read all of those books in English, I think it's just for me in that way, easier to tap into that.
00:39:27
Speaker
You know, it's hard enough to write a novel, but then to write it in another language and then to write it for a particular audience. and to Like, I'm always in utter awe of anyone that can speak more than one language, let alone write full-blown novel in it. No, it is...
00:39:42
Speaker
It is such an achievement, I must say, in any language. Yeah. yeah and So i always want to give props to people for doing that. I think what I do very much rely and always have relied on either just native and English speakers, like...
00:39:57
Speaker
you know, who read my, who proofread stuff yeah and where i also rely heavily on my editors is very much sort of the grammar and the tense. I'm like, I write it as I feel and how it sounds correct to me and sometimes how it sounds good to me. yeah And then someone comes and like goes over it and is like, actually this, you know, in like the yet always chosen to ignore. I'm sure that for me, this was always yet. I always chose to ignore. rather than chosen and i'm like okay i see this is grammatically correct but i distinctly remember there wasn't an n in my head yeah um and so i think that's when i have the luxury of ah like letting someone else fix my mistakes and i think i then sometimes get away with this not being my first language because I'm allowed those mistakes or I allow myself those mistakes. Yeah. And don't feel too self-conscious about not getting it right. Right.
00:41:00
Speaker
And sometimes I'm like, throw the grammar out, right? Like it sounds good. It sounds good. Exactly. Like what bothers me, what really bothers me is this stupid, like, I will call it, yeah, I'm not going to get cancelled for that because it's silly, is this stupid like whatever copy editing guide or like, you know, the rule book that Bloomsbury books have where like the word OK is the letters O and K. not the written out okay a y and that annoys me so much i think it looks so stupid and i don't think whenever when anyone thinks the word okay they think oh you know they they think okay like the like like the word and so that really that i struggle with like my characters say okay a lot because they they're teenagers and so they they don't say okay
00:41:51
Speaker
And and that that's something that really deeply bothers me, but that I just have to like just have to stick to those rules. And that I find stupid. That I'm like, Blueberry, don't make me do that.
00:42:03
Speaker
Just the the things we have to deal with. Yes. The first world problems. I think that's what those are called. But yeah, I want to ask more about your writing practice. Like, how do you do it? When do you do it? What's your like ideal setup?
00:42:21
Speaker
Are you typing? Are you handwriting? Could not be the person that handwrites. Like I already have so, so little time. and i can't, I can't be dealing with them like writing it all over again. Although, I do see like the advantage of then instantly sort of editing yourself in that process.
00:42:39
Speaker
But I would say I'm more of an more of an evening, nighttime writer. I'm not much of a morning morning person generally. um I do really like to write with music to to get that mood across. I very much have writing playlists for every specific manuscript that I work on. and They might evolve, but i definitely always have like a a set list of songs that inform the characters and that inform the mood and that of sometimes even inspire like plot points. yeah
00:43:15
Speaker
it's I would say it's a lot of like melancholic teen pop stuff. And a lot of queer songs as well in that in that space.
00:43:28
Speaker
But so listen to music a lot. I'm also not someone who can easily write in between like moments. I'm not someone who like quickly whips out the laptop on the... 10 minute train to between Manchester and Stockport and gets like a few sentences down. That is not me. and I have to commit. And that's a struggle when you're also, when you've got a day job and then you actually, like, I need to take at least an hour out and sit down for that hour. Cause I'm not, I can't squeeze myself.
00:44:00
Speaker
squeeze writing in between. Maybe there's a couple of poems in there and that more so because it's because it's such a slice, because it's such a fraction and it's such an, I think, instant moment. That's possible.
00:44:13
Speaker
But if I have to get into that headspace, I can't do that in a matter of 15,
Kai's Writing Journey and Book Recommendations
00:44:20
Speaker
20 minutes. yeah And I kind of envy people who can do that, who can just write under any circumstances Because that would that would make me a faster writer. yeah But that's not me. <unk> yeah And I'm also someone who...
00:44:38
Speaker
edits as they go along. Maybe that is an advantage because I know that some writers just put everything that races through their heads on on paper and just spew it all out and then have a manuscript of 120,000 words and then cut down and then edit. That's not me. I definitely edit while I write and that helps me and maybe then again slows me down because I reread passages over and over and over again.
00:45:06
Speaker
I would say that's my setup. And yes, I'm a snacker. I shouldn't be because then the then the keyboard gets greasy or sugary, um which is not nice. You mentioned cookies this morning. so It's a motivation. It's like, if I have to write... then I get to then i get to snack. yeah um That's a compromise. yeah One of my bosses at work, she is like a task first, treat later person. yeah I'm a treat now and throughout person.
00:45:39
Speaker
I tell myself, I write and then afterwards i I get a treat, but it always ends up that the treat happens while I'm doing it. Yeah. um And you're sitting at a desk or like on the sofa or?
00:45:52
Speaker
Anything. Yeah, both. yeah um I also like a cafe setting to work in. Yeah, we do like cafes, this is true. I do like cafes. I like the romance of like a dirty chai and a, I don't know, whatever playlist is on, it also doesn't bother me and like the smell of coffee. And I mean, nowadays there's always my dog hopefully snoozing next to me so she doesn't interrupt the writing process. Yeah. um Do you have like an early memory of writing? Did you like I knew you said earlier you were, you know, you were always a reader, but were you always a writer too?
00:46:29
Speaker
No, i wouldn't say I was. I always enjoyed it. And I very much remember like enjoying again and like on English tests when we had to write a short story. hmm.
00:46:41
Speaker
And I quite enjoyed that. I very much enjoyed then borrowing like insults. Like i I distinctly remember like borrowing the word jerk and putting it on my English test because you know, It was like a creative writing exercise and I could get away with it. And I wanted to impress my teacher and be like, and and I wanted them to ask, how did you know that word? But they never asked. So, you know, um so yes. And there's definitely also, ah guess I did a bit of a creative writing exercise with a schoolmate of mine where we sort of,
00:47:15
Speaker
write the same story but each of us would write a chapter and then send it on them and then they'd continue that and I'm scared that at one point that person will dig out maybe that email chain and i hope I hope not because I'm sure it's pretty bad but I also kind of want to go back to it and reread but I also really don't I think i always, deep down, even though I wasn't doing much writing and I specifically, I think, struggled to commit and finish something, i always knew eventually one day i would write and publish a book.
00:47:49
Speaker
I just didn't know when it was going to happen and I didn't expect it to happen, i think, in my twenty s But I always knew that was in my future. That's nice. um Yeah, finishing something.
00:48:01
Speaker
That's the big one. That is the one. The Irish writer, Colm Toybean. Like, his but whenever he's in interviews, people are like, what advice do you give to writers? He was like, finish the thing that you start. He's do not start a new thing. Finish the thing.
00:48:16
Speaker
yeah And then you can do a new one. and um like best ideas come The best for other things come while you're writing one thing. yeah but i guess it helps getting paid for that one thing yeah so you're kind of forced to finish it yeah and yeah that commitment helps yeah get it done people okay my last question what books are you recommending to listeners old things new things things not yet out I'm looking at my bookshelf right now. So something I read also, again, to get in the mood for, because I'm currently writing the sequel for Boyfriends. And then I know some people completely stay away from books within that same sort of space that they're writing in because they're, I don't know, scared of
00:49:05
Speaker
copying stuff, yeah it does help me to get in the atmosphere and in the mood and and feel inspired. And so I read, and I generally love the author Nina Lacour. She writes, I think now basically anything between picture books, young adult novels, and also i think literary or at least upmarket adult novels.
00:49:27
Speaker
And so I read one of her earlier works, which is called Everything Leads to You. And that might've been Maybe the first time she wrote a lesbian main character. Okay.
00:49:39
Speaker
And... Again, that was maybe even before the boom of, or what I call the boom of queer young adult that came with Love, Simon. And that is, if you like a sort of, I would call it quiet novel. I think that's a sort of book that would maybe struggle to get sold today because everything is, especially in, I think, commercial children's fiction is very much about getting readers engaged, keeping them hooked,
00:50:07
Speaker
having something propulsive that that keeps moving the plot forward. And that's very much a book about atmosphere. And while it kind of has, it's the story of this girl, I think, who's just finished school and who's very sort of embedded in like the LA film industry. she's She's an intern as a set dresser, which I found really interesting.
00:50:33
Speaker
profession in a book that I'd never read about. So I was like, this is quite fascinating as itself. And then how that informs how she looks at the world was also really fascinating that, you know, and then sort of the author ah making up these, these films that she was telling the audience, I'm like, okay, how can you invent a story within a story within a story that the reader still cares about. i think that I also found interesting and what she always managed to like make that story within a story within a story like that film that the character was working on sort of reflect back to the overall plot or to that emotional inner life. And
00:51:12
Speaker
So she then slowly falls in love with this girl. But it's also not even primarily a romance. I guess it's a bit of a, again, coming of age, young coming of age story. And I really enjoyed the voice of the setting and the overall atmosphere of that. was amazing. It was internal and there was never that big moment of, oh, you've made a huge mistake that you need to fix or there's a big fallout between the the love and interest that needs to be overcome. There there was never really that. It was just a really nice way of existing in that world. And it was, yeah, it was it was undramatic and still...
00:51:52
Speaker
really interesting so if anyone enjoys like a quiet coming of age novel um that is does really well at setting an atmosphere i'd recommend that let's go with another book that released this year already which i loved and which i was so looking forward to and for anyone who likes fantasy and the sort of The Witcher space, like a really quality fantasy.
00:52:23
Speaker
It's a debut out author. And it's also, I think... one of the rare occasions where ah queer man writes a queer male lead in a high fantasy adult novel, also on a really quality level.
00:52:43
Speaker
um And that one is called The Red Winter. I forgot the title there for a second. And that's honestly been one of my favorite books. It's like...
00:52:55
Speaker
it's It's on several different timelines and it's very much sort of pre-French Revolution. the the story of, you know, the sort of werewolf beast and a kind of mage immortal who has to...
00:53:14
Speaker
kill this beast or hunt this beast, but also falls in love with like a French Lord at the same time. And so it's a very, very horny book without ever getting really smutty. Like there's, I realized afterwards that there's no actual sex scene. There's just a lot of that like tension, tension, tension, And you do like, you know, things are very much body parts are very much named and right they bodily functions definitely do things. um
00:53:51
Speaker
But yeah, the fact that there's no sex scene and it still manages to be so sexy, but it also manages to like, it's it's a brick of a book, like 500, 600 pages of it really thought-out, quality fantasy story that also gives me the lovely... You know, I'm seeing, like, a bisexual magician that, I don't know, I quite loved that. And it was so suspenseful and it was, like... I think it combined a lot of elements that I really, really like in a book and put them together in a way that just blew my mind. So for anyone who enjoys a fantasy now and then, that's one. And then if we're if we're moving to literary, because it's also just releasing, I was a massive fan of John of John ah Douglas Stewart, I must say, because i love exploring in my own stories that child-parent relationship, because I find that generally quite complex. And then when you add queerness to that dynamic, how does that shape the relationship? And then I myself wrote, wanted to write, you know, boyfriends about a gay dad and his gay son. And John of John also does that, but it does it differently. And it also very much explores that relationship, but it's a very different relationship.
00:55:14
Speaker
And so I think I just sort of finished writing Boyfriends and then came across John of John. And that was like a really nice sort of mirror to hold against Boyfriends. And also, it's always a nice reminder that your you you think you're you you know you think you're such a such a creative mind and then someone...
00:55:37
Speaker
is doing the exact same thing that you are differently, but you know, you've not come up with that idea. Someone else is also doing that. And a lot of other people are doing that. And so I think that was, was really nice to read someone also exploring that dynamic, but doing it so differently. So, and it, and yeah. I think that was so far my favorite Douglas Stewart book because there was more tenderness and warmth in that one than in the two previous ones. yeah And I think i that really speaks
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:56:08
Speaker
to me. Yeah.
00:56:10
Speaker
Kai, thank you so much for joining me today. This was really fun. Yeah, thank you. We didn't say that many spicy things. i saying which Should we drop something? What can we say? how about you tell me How about you tell me that author that you didn't want to tell me about earlier whose whose book you don't want to read? Yeah.
00:56:29
Speaker
Okay, we'll end the episode there. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was really fun. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you want more books on families and relationships, but in a very, very different mode, you can go back to episode 12 with Abigail Bergstrom, or you could go back to the previous episode, number 31, with Madeline Dunnigan to read another book about teenage boys who are friends and lovers.
00:56:58
Speaker
Please subscribe to this show if you haven't already. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or on YouTube. Share with people in all the places. Follow the show and me on Instagram. Tag me in posts of any episodes that you'd like. And if you can, fill out the feedback form. That would be amazing.
00:57:13
Speaker
You can also get more information by subscribing to the Substack. This show is made possible by an Impact Accelerator Award from the Arts and Humanities Research Council and the University of Hertfordshire.