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Ep. 26. Sasha Debevec-McKenney, 'WHAT AM I AFRAID OF?'
97 Plays15 days ago
In this episode, I talk to Sasha Debevec-McKenney about her poem 'WHAT AM I AFRAID OF?' from her collection Joy is My Middle Name.
Sasha Debevec-McKenney is the author of the poetry collection Joy Is My Middle Name (Fitzcarraldo, 2025). She received her MFA from New York University, was the 2020–2021 Jay C. and Ruth Halls Poetry Fellow at the University of Wisconsin, and a 2023-2025 Creative Writing Fellow at Emory University. Her poems have appeared in places like The New Yorker, The Yale Review, The Drift, and Granta. She was born in Hartford, Connecticut and is currently an Assistant Professor of Writing at Grand Valley State University.
Episode notes
- Diane Seuss, frank: sonnets
Book recs:
- Yasmin Zaher, The Coin
- Steven Duong, At the End of the World There is a Pond
- Elisa Gonzales, Grand Tour
Follow the show on Instagram and subscribe to the Substack for transcripts and more links. Find Sasha on IG @sashajdm. Please leave feedback here.
Produced, hosted, and edited by Chris Lloyd.
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Transcript
Introduction to Books Up Close
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Books Up Close, the podcast. I'm Chris Lloyd. This is the close reading show for writers, readers, and anyone who wants to know how texts get made.
Interview with Sasha Debevec McKinney
00:00:11
Speaker
In today's episode, I talked to Sasha Debevec McKinney about her poem, What Am I Afraid Of, from her collection Joy Is My Middle Name.
00:00:18
Speaker
Sasha is the author of the poetry collection Joy is My Little Name from Fitzcrawdo. She received her MFA from New York University, was the 2020-21 J.C. and Ruth Halls Poetry Fellow at the University of Wisconsin, and a 2023-25 Creative Writing Fellow at Emory University. Her poems have appeared in places like The New Yorker, The Yale Review, The Drift, and Granter. She was born in Hartford, Connecticut, and is currently an assistant professor of writing at Grand Valley State University.
Fitzcrawdo Poetry Series and Sasha's Book
00:00:44
Speaker
Thank you, Sasha, joining me and braving the snow. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
00:00:50
Speaker
I wanted to talk you for ages. soon as this book came out, I mean, I'm i'm on like the Fitzcraldo is like my thing, right? I'm deep Fitzcraldo hive. And as soon as I heard there was a poetry like series coming out, I was like, okay, let's go.
00:01:02
Speaker
And first it was like Diane Seuss and I was like, you know, we were just like in.
Insights on 'What Am I Afraid Of'
00:01:06
Speaker
And then this title, Joy is My Middle Name, came up I was like, I do not know who Sasha is. Diane's right there.
00:01:13
Speaker
I was like, I don't know, Sasha, who is Sasha? And I bought it like instantly. I was like, click. And this book was like, not what was expecting. I don't think it's so full of stuff and life and thoughts.
00:01:27
Speaker
And it was really hard to pick a poem to talk about with you today. And I suggested this one and your reply by email was like, why does everyone like this poem? And I really want to know, is that because you're just like surprised or is it just not a poem you feel strongly about?
00:01:41
Speaker
No, I think it's it's like genuine surprise. And also, it's a poem that I'm comfortable with now. But for like the first year i after I wrote it, and I would like read it places, i would literally have like, I would start like I hyperventilating because i feel like it's really easy
Choosing a Standout Poem
00:02:00
Speaker
for me and my poems to like embarrass myself and stuff but it's hard to like actually talk about how I feel genuinely and I feel like this was like one of the first poems where because the book is so like it's my first book it's a collection of like all these things I've written since like 2018 2023 you know and so that I feel like that poem was like this turning point where like I had been out of my master's program for like a year and I had like been in COVID, you know, like it's a much quieter poem than thing that I had been writing before. yeah And like lines are shorter. And so like, It's this poem that feels so vulnerable to me in in a way that I like have a hard time explaining to people. Like, so I love that people love it. And it's also like, it has been a good reminder to me that like, I can tell people how I feel, which I think is like a crazy thing for me to be like, I have problems with that because that's like
The Art of Close Reading Poetry
00:02:56
Speaker
the whole thing. But it it is hard because like that that poem felt like really serious to me when I wrote it.
00:03:02
Speaker
Like, yeah. So i'm i'm I'm happy to talk about it though. I love it. Okay, good. But that's always the thing, right? Like when I'm picking like a poem or an extract, I'm always like, do I pick a poem or an extract that like exemplifies the book as a whole or one that I'm like, what is this thing here? Right? Like, often I talk about the opening of a novel because it's quite easy to get into. But sometimes I'm like, this page here is wild.
00:03:25
Speaker
And it stands out from the rest. Right. And I think this does stand out in different ways, but it also has your comedy and your rhinos and your your interest in what language can do and language that like feels real. Anyway, we'll get into that in a minute. um But how do you feel about close reading generally? What is your relationship to it?
Making Poetry Accessible
00:03:42
Speaker
I feel like I'm kind of bad at it. Like, i'll I think I'll be able to do it with this poem literally because I wrote it. So I can be like, oh, yeah, I get that. But I think that like, I don't know, i think sometimes a close reading can make a poem feel like like a test. Mm-hmm.
00:03:59
Speaker
you know, that like you have to get right. And I feel like my job is like teaching creative writing, like in intro classes and like teaching new poets, like undergraduates. And so close reading, sometimes I'm like, this is...
00:04:13
Speaker
this is your experience of what it's been like with poetry. Like there's a right and wrong answer. yeah And so i feel like, and and then for me too, like my poems, like are really accessible. And i think a lot of poems I read, I just like, I can't enter them. And then,
00:04:29
Speaker
It feels like embarrassing to be like, I don't know what this says. It's like, I get like, I think a lot of people are like, oh, I love a poem. That's a riddle. And I like for me, I'm like, i I love when a poem like, you know, that's what makes poems good is they open up and they change. But like, you have to let me in.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah. like a little bit at first. And um so I feel like when I do close readings in my class, it's always in this place of like, there's no wrong answer.
Reading and Analyzing 'What Am I Afraid Of'
00:04:56
Speaker
Like, yeah maybe it's because I'm lazy, but I don't go in being like, all right, here's the 10 things I need us to talk about.
00:05:02
Speaker
You know, it's kind of just like, we're just talking about a piece of art. Like, what did you like about it? yeah Like, what didn't you like about it What was confusing about it? Yeah. But yeah, I don't know, like, I think if we're talking, I mean, there's a poem in the Diane Seuss book, Blueish, that's about a knife. It's like, I bought a blue knife, it did not save my life or something like that. Yeah. It's just like the best poem ever. And like, that poem, it's like, I feel like in my copy of the book, i'm every time I read it, it's like I'm adding to my close reading of it. But that poem is like, it rhymes and it's ominous and beautiful. And like, there's all those things that made me want to
00:05:39
Speaker
Keep coming back to it. Like it wasn't like a challenge. So I love a close reading, but I think it's like, it's like a beautiful, special thing that you have in when you read a book. And instead of being like this thing we do in classes where they're like, you don't understand what the blue means. So like, you're stupid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
No, no. And I think that is like a long tradition of teaching literature and especially for kind of like to pass an exam or to pass whatever. And so much of the work I'm doing with my students is like, whoa, whoa throw that out the window.
00:06:07
Speaker
whatever are the vibes? Like, what do you what do you respond to or not? And they're like, yeah, but the meter must be there for a reason. I'm like, yeah, but I don't know. why don't we just talk about it together? And sometimes that sticks and sometimes it doesn't stick. And I'm really interested in how much like habituation there is to be like, this is what a close reading must be, or this is what poetry must be.
00:06:28
Speaker
So I think that's why I'm kind of drawn to your work that like on the surface, it feels very accessible. And then you're like, wait, what's going on? She did something weird here. And I'm like, I, yeah, there's something else happening in the background, which I think is fun.
00:06:40
Speaker
But today we're talking about what am I afraid of? I'd love if you could read it for us first and then we can dive in.
Themes of Identity and Self-Perception
00:06:46
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. What am I afraid of? The silence, the thoughts that come with it, the sinking suspicion that something more is wrong with me than anyone knows, including myself, including the doctor who hooked me up to the EKG machine and said that though my heartbeat was irregular, the irregularity was normal.
00:07:10
Speaker
It was nothing to worry about. The doctor told me there are two kinds of people. Unhealthy people who refuse to get help and healthy people who always think they're dying.
00:07:21
Speaker
Nobody's in between. But I've met so many kinds of people. People who stretch before they get out of bed. People who walk through life unstretched. People who think their body is a house and people who don't think of their body at all.
00:07:35
Speaker
People who peel their carrots. People who don't. People who stand on the roof and let the wind make them cry. People who are afraid to cry. People who step on all the leaves on the sidewalk.
00:07:48
Speaker
People who look straight ahead. There are people who aren't like me. They don't know the names of all the different apples. Once when I was cashiering, a woman said to me, wow, you really know your kale.
00:08:01
Speaker
And once at the butcher shop, a man said to his dog, That's the nice lady who smells like meat. I'm afraid I don't know what kind of person I am. i thought I would get a chance to do my life over in all the ways anyone could think of.
00:08:16
Speaker
Dying would be like changing the channel. I hate that you can't hold on to anything. I was washing an apple and then I was coring it and then it was cut. And that was weeks ago now.
00:08:28
Speaker
It was a honey crisp and it lived up to its name. Thank you so much. Lovely to hear you read that aloud. And you're right, this is like a really long, thin poem for people who can't see it. i will link it somewhere, but you you tend towards the longer line, i feel, in this book.
00:08:47
Speaker
You love to like stretch across the page. There are some, you have to turn the page landscape to read it, right? And I wonder, for me, those kind of like shorter lines, you're really burrowing down kind of on the page, right?
00:08:59
Speaker
Lots of your poems are expansive. It's like, the thought, the line that runs across, but here you're like narrowing in And I wonder how you felt about that as you were doing it. Yeah. i mean, that sometimes it's,
Balancing Vulnerability and Humor
00:09:12
Speaker
I feel like if I had to guess, cause this was maybe like 2021 that i wrote this, like, I think that like,
00:09:18
Speaker
It was kind of like i was saying, like I was in this mode of feeling like I wanted to like I wasn't spending time with people. I wasn't talking out loud a lot. Like I wonder honestly, like how much that affected, yeah like affected the work I was making because.
00:09:36
Speaker
I think that like a lot of times in the book, in other poems, it's like where I'm always using like I'm hiding, you know, like whether it's like I almost admit something or like I'm making a joke about something because I don't want to say it or like i start talking about a random fact because I don't want to talk about the thing or whatever. And like, I think maybe that the it's really just like a a way of hiding, maybe like these short the short lines, like kind of tucked in, like that's how the poem feels to me. Like it's very timid, I think. The short line feels a little bit a little bit just quieter. I don't know. like i did I think I remember feeling like, okay, I want to i want to grow up. I don't want to write these big um things. And then also like I feel like sometimes I'm just – if the first break is really good, I'm like, well, I'll just try and make all the lines about that long. So it's like the first line is just like the silence, the thoughts. And I and i bet I bet i just liked that line. and And also that was part of it too.
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah. Was that the beginning? Do you know if that was the beginning? Was that always the beginning? I think so. I mean, i do like when there's some sort of tension between the title and the first, the first line.
00:10:48
Speaker
So like, basically I, like I said, I was living in Wisconsin in, in, I wasn't really seeing my friends as very much. It was like 2021 or whatever, you know, like anyway, so I, um, I was living back in the place after that. I had my like twenties in after like being gone for a couple, for a while. So the things that are in this poem, like the kale and the butcher shop, those are things that like had happened to me in the town I was living in, but like 10 years previous that I had like, I had been retelling those things for like, cause they were so funny. Like I just had never forgotten them, you know? And then when I was writing the poem, I was like, oh, that someone has told me what kind of person I am before. Anyways, I think that I was, I was alone and I just finished the MFA and one of my classmates had just like passed and it was, her name was, her name was April Freely and she's a poet and she had written and was like writing a lot about basically just like,
00:11:49
Speaker
Black women's health and how it's not taken seriously, like broadly among many other things. But that was like kind of one of the topics of her work. And so when she like died all of a sudden, it kind of like,
Teaching and Encouraging Creativity
00:12:02
Speaker
it was so sad because it's sad anytime someone dies, but also like,
00:12:06
Speaker
it was like the thing that she wrote about. And it was just kind of like, I don't know. I feel like I've been, i mean, knock on wood, but I feel like I've been pretty lucky and that I haven't experienced like a ton of significant grief in my life. So kind of,
00:12:22
Speaker
i kind of that like I think this poem is so much about like literally being 30 years old. I know that that's like so that's such a like like a bland way of putting it, but like I lost a friend and I felt like i was my voice was changing and I was literally like, oh, I'm going to die too. like i havet There's another poem I wrote at the same time as this, where which is like the bad version of this poem. Yeah. And it's basically ah poem about how I was watching like a Cary Grant movie. And I was like, everyone in the movie is dead. Like the parrot is dead. yeah dead the The director's dead. Like everyone's dead. We're all going to die. Like it was just this bit like it was I was like, I'm going to die. i You know, but that was like, I think like that idea that I had like. put so bluntly in the other poem.
00:13:11
Speaker
In this one, I was able to kind of like, I think that's really like the thing, ah like, you know, I say it in the poem, but like, I was literally just like, i my friend died. And I was, I was like, that could be me. Like, you know, I'm not 24. Ironically, everything in the poem is from when I was 24.
00:13:28
Speaker
What's interesting is the poem, you know, it starts like, what am I afraid of? And like, it could easily just be a poem of listing all the stuff.
Concluding Thoughts and Book Recommendations
00:13:34
Speaker
Do you know what I mean But instead it becomes a poem about like, what kind of person am i Which is really a different question from like, what am I afraid of? Or like, or what is a person? What kinds of people are there in the world?
00:13:46
Speaker
Can we categorize people, right? Is it just their actions or the kinds of things they believe in? There are two kinds of people, the unhealthy people who refuse to get help and healthy people who always think they're dying. And it's like funny, but it's also this kind of like schema that the poem's like, is that the only two options, right? Like, is is that all we have?
00:14:06
Speaker
So what's what's interesting is that like, it may be the poem starts in that sad place of what am I afraid of? The silence, the thoughts break that come with it, which is a great break. it's not it's not It's like the silence and the thoughts, but also the thoughts that come with the silence, which... It's a whole other meaning.
00:14:20
Speaker
But the poem then goes elsewhere, right? We end with like beauty and like things being what they sound like, the honey crisp. So yeah, well, I'm really interested in that kind of like a biographical background to this. Like the poem also takes us far beyond that starting point, which is why I think I love it.
00:14:37
Speaker
I think for me, like I said, it was such a poem about death when I was writing it. And then as like more people have read it and like talked to me about it, you know, they i feel like I have a friend that read it after going through like a really bad breakup. And she was like, this is like the the thing I needed to read after my breakup. And I was like, oh, like it's positive.
00:15:01
Speaker
I was like, oh, the poem is positive. Okay, I see that now. Right, right. or Or it's like more ambivalent about yeah both both the question, what am I afraid of? And the question of like, what is a person? Yeah. I mean, I think that's why it was like, you know, so nice for my friend who had like been in this relationship for 10 years to read the poem and be like, oh, it's actually okay. Like you could just be a new person. Like, I don't know. I feel like that's, yeah. And I, ah I think there's shame in that sometimes where you're like, oh no, I don't want to change or I don't want to like try something new and then fail or whatever. Yeah.
00:15:40
Speaker
The poem does know some things, right? And, you know, we start with that, like loads of sibilance, silence, sinking, suspicion, something, self, right? It's like really starts in this kind of like quite like a very particular rhythm, right?
00:15:55
Speaker
and it's And it's very personal, like something more is wrong with me than anyone knows, comma, including myself, comma, including the doctor who hooked me up to the EKG machine and like hooked me up to to the EKG machine, suddenly we had some kind of like irregularity of sound.
00:16:11
Speaker
yeah And then you say out loud and said that though my heartbeat was irregular, the irregularity was normal. And that line, like irregularity was normal. Like that is also like another, that's like another phrase for this book, right? Like that that throughout the book, you're like, they're like, here's the specific, here's the irregular and the irregular saturates our world, right? Like there's something so specific. I just love that phrase. It just makes me think so many things about the other poems, if that makes sense. they Yeah, it totally does. Thank you. That's a really nice thing to say.
00:16:44
Speaker
I mean, it's literally what he said to me. Like, you know, and I was like, oh. Okay. Okay. Like, I don't know. Sometimes someone just says something to you so confidently that ah you are forced to believe it.
00:16:59
Speaker
Like, and I think, you know, like, I feel like I really wanted to, like, not be scared, you know? And so, like, I feel that that beginning of that poem is, like, me talking to myself. like Yeah.
00:17:13
Speaker
You're okay. Like, remember what the doctor said? Like, everything's fine. Like, and I was absolutely hooked up to an EKG machine being like, everything's wrong with me. And he was like, no no no, no, no, no. Like, you're one of these people. This is just who you are. Right. And I was sitting there with him being like, showing me my results being like, literally, like, he did not. He was like, you don't need to get hooked up. We don't need to do your heartbeat. I was like, yes, do it. I want to know, you know what i mean? Like, like something's wrong with me. I know it is like, and also it was coming from like, my friend just died. Like no one listened to her, you know, and no one listened to her mom who had just died earlier before. And that was like what the poems are about, like, right and caregiving and all that stuff. So I just was like, I didn't believe him, but it was also, um, if I were going to be like,
00:18:01
Speaker
close reading this poem, it's like that is the first period in the poem, you know? like is really like me trying to be like, there is nothing to worry about Sasha. Like, here's the one sentence that's going to fit on a whole line. like Yeah, but there but there is something, like it was nothing to worry about. And it's like, ah okay, but...
00:18:19
Speaker
You know, like, like there's a certainty, but also like an instability too, because then the doctor just says there's two kinds of people. And then you or the poem is kind of like, there's nobody's in between, but I've met break so many kinds of people. So I think that's also interesting, right? Like nobody's in between, but I've met And it's just like suddenly the expanse of like the page, right? Like, but I've met who knows what, but so many kinds of people.
00:18:46
Speaker
And then you have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 11 peoples, right? In those next lines. When I read this out loud, I'm like, you got to cut some of this. cool
00:18:59
Speaker
But think- I get it. The repetition is interesting, right? The repetition is interesting. It's the kind of thing we might be like, oh, that's like a lot of people, but at the same time, it's like you're driving home.
00:19:12
Speaker
Like repeat, you it's when you repeat a word so many times, it doesn't sound like a word anymore, you whatever that thing is. um And you're like, that's not how you spell it. That's not a real word. This is all, yeah. people becomes so capacious as a word by the end of the poem so that the kind of the doctors like you're in this camp or this camp kind of falls apart in a way yeah he was such a nice man but it is like don't you feel like that's such a thing in a poem where or like a genesis of a poem for me it's like someone says that and i'm like something and i'm like
00:19:42
Speaker
I don't agree with you. Like, I feel like so much of my, and this is so funny because i'm sitting here being like, this is a poem about death. And like, this is a poem about like being like, no, you're wrong actually. Like it's coming from this like angry, scared place. And then,
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. and And I think that like, even though now I'm like, we, I would condense some of this. It is kind of, it is kind of nice to just feel like at a certain point, it's, it just becomes sort of like, and you have met all these people too. You know what I mean? Like, yeah you know, like you're going to, and also like you are one of these people, like yeah hopefully on this list. And, and I think also like it's setting up kind of, I like that, you know, like The carrots are in there. Like something that I really like about, I'll just keep talking about Diane Seuss. There's something I like about Diane Seuss's books are that they feel like middle class, like or American middle class, whatever you know what I mean? Like you're like, I'm always, she was poor, yeahp you know, like, and it, and that's there.
00:20:45
Speaker
And so like something about this book is like, I'm, I have a job. You know, like I've met these people because I worked at the co-op and because I worked at the butcher shop. And like these people came from standing and being forced to meet people all day.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah. And then eventually the poem turns to like them looking at me and telling me what kind of person I am, you know, like. But I think like you're making me like this. that you're I'm like, okay, maybe it is okay that it just goes on a little, it goes on a little long. But I think I was just thinking about all the versions of myself, you know, as well. Like I would say like at one point I was all, I yeah probably all these things would describe who I was and who I am and something that had changed about me, like in this, you know, five year period where i'm like, holy shit, I'm 32. Like what the fuck? Yeah.
00:21:39
Speaker
You know, like, so, yeah. Yeah, and like, it kind of opens up space for identity being like way less rigid than we might think. And I think there's the play in your, the book title, Joy is My Middle Name, right? Which makes us think like, oh, this is like very, you know, she's telling us something about herself and her identity and like whatever. And what am I afraid of? I'm like, okay, we're going straight in with the confessional or the, you know, whatever.
00:22:05
Speaker
And actually by the time the poem ends, you're kind of like, i don't know what a person is at all, right? Like yeah'm like sometimes i peel my carrots and sometimes I don't. It's like, yeah, like which camp am I I don't know. It depends on the day, right? Like some people, sometimes I peel and people around me like, what are you doing? You don't need to do that.
00:22:22
Speaker
I want to do it today. Leave me alone. Right. I'm on my hands. yeah Yeah, exactly. Which is like, you know, I just want to peel them. Just that's fine. And I think that sense of like, I know what kind of person I am is one of the like myths or stories that you're trying to poke at in the poem. yeah um You know, people are so certain of who they are sometimes, I think.
00:22:45
Speaker
And that always worries me when someone's like, I'm, you know, like I'm X kind of person. i'm like, are you? When? Today? today or just in this moment? because and And I think there's something quite freeing about this poem. And I think it's repetitions a part of that, right?
00:23:00
Speaker
By having people, by having irregular irregularity repeated. There's also like the including, including repetition that was early on, right? You're not afraid of repeating words.
00:23:13
Speaker
no only you But I think it's quite liberating, right? It's the kind of thing you're like, oh, why is this repeated again? Like, what's what's going on with that? It draws my eye. Yeah. and and And I also think, I feel like this is a time period for me where like, I was really trying to be conscious of what my norm was. I feel like probably in the six months after this poem, I was really always like, you always use repetition, like cut that out. You know what i mean? Like you, or like, and there's always anaphora in your poems. Like you need to stop. Like, that's how they all end. Like, like someone's gonna notice.
00:23:51
Speaker
And so like, I feel like it's nice because it's weird. Just I feel like this poem is so in the center of like how I used to write and how I write now. Like yeah you're ah pointing all this stuff out to me. And i'm like, yeah, like the people people, people, people, like all the, yeah, the anaphora in the poem, it feels like very something that I would cut out of a poem now.
00:24:11
Speaker
I feel like I only really use it when I like, good. I'm like, I must. Yeah. You know, otherwise I'm like, well, if the sentence still works without the an effort or without the repetition, like, I don't know that I need it, but I feel like I hear it kind of just, I don't know. Like, yeah, I think it is really like just coming from a place of like, really like, i like that there's a question mark in the title. You know what i mean? Like there is literally like, for me, if there's, you know, a punctuation of the title, it's like, I don't know. I, yeah.
00:24:42
Speaker
I think it's like, ah it's, it's a person for asking themselves like a genuine question. Like I was really scared at this time, life like about everything changing. And um there's something so interesting to me about like, like looking back and being like, wow, this is so hectic. This is so, so much. And then you look at the poem and it's so like, like a slice. yes Like I'm, I feel like I'm always trying to like, it's an attempt at neatness in a feeling that's like really not neat.
00:25:10
Speaker
Yeah. oh But like neatness, but also like precision as well, right? yeah Because i mean, I love your poems because they like run across the page. i think there's something really like freeing about it, even while I'm like, there's nothing free or haphazard about this, right? Like Sasha knows what she's doing, but they feel they feel free in a way.
00:25:31
Speaker
And whenever I try and write a line that's longer than six words, im like, this feels so unstable, Chris, what are you doing? Like, I don't trust myself to go across and I love the word unstable. It's true. Like I do, I do not trust that the line can hold the weight of all the words, but you do it so well. And I think it's just, it's so striking to then turn the page and see this like long, thin one yeah that then gets like so intimate and it is about like your fears, but then it is like super expansive about the kinds of people in the world. And then you've got this like kind of a turn. Like there are people who aren't like me. They don't know the names of all the different apples. i'm like,
00:26:10
Speaker
apples okay you know that's not what you this is not what i expect in this turn in the poem yeah you get once when i was cashiering and i'm like it's such like an interesting turn in the poem right you've gone from like the very person on the doctor to like the kinds of people in the world to back to you or the speaker whoever it is a woman said to me wow break even like there is like such a good break right a woman said to me wow because you could that could be anything right but instead it's you really know your kale and you're like oh I've had so many of those social interactions, right? where it's like a setup and then the underlining part. And once at the butcher shop, a man said to his dog, like, of course he said it's the dog. That's the nice lady who smells like me. And you're like, oh, okay. Like the first one like made me laugh. The second one, I was like, oh no, I know this man.
00:27:00
Speaker
But it's just so funny that we've gone from like, there's really broad designations to these very specific people and you give them like quote marks too, right? Like, like this is speech. And i'm like, oh, okay. we haven't had speech in a while in like some of these. books It's a very interesting choice, right?
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, those are things, like I just said, that i just never forgot. Yeah. Like, I never, ever. Yeah, like, truly. And I think that if I'm being honest, like, i There's there are just those things where it's they those were in my brain like waiting.
00:27:31
Speaker
a They were like sleeper cells just like one day we are going to pump. If a man you that's a nice lady who smells like me like you it's kind of like you know like when you're going through a breakup or whatever and you're like at least I'll get content out of this like.
00:27:47
Speaker
Like, okay, he said I smells like meat i smell like meat, so like I have to write that down or else like someone just said that to me and I have to live my life like that forever. yeah Someone else needs that line to saturate their brain, you know? Exactly, get it out. But I feel like, yeah, I don't know. And then also i do think it,
00:28:06
Speaker
is like, I think I, I go too far without making a joke. Like, it's funny that you're saying like, when the line is like longer than six words, you're like, it might not be able to hold it. And when I'm, when I go like shorter, I'm like, people are going to find out I'm a bad writer.
00:28:23
Speaker
I don't know. Like, sometimes they just get yeah, I get really self-conscious about my vocabulary, I think, or whatever a reason, like, I don't know. And so it's kind of scary to be like, okay, I'm going to do it. Like, and and I think this poem is like a place where I'm just being so vulnerable in a way that it makes me deeply uncomfortable. Yeah. um And so like, I think I got to the point where I was like, I have to put a joke in here.
00:28:46
Speaker
Like I need to give myself a break. but Like I'm being too genuine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That's like a really interesting flip on the way. Yeah. I understand that. But like, but also your language is like your language, right? Like every poem I'm like, Oh, that's Sasha. Like that's your language.
00:29:05
Speaker
I would rather you not use other words. You know what I mean? Same with those, right? Like those sonnets, like she does not go straight far from like her vernacular. no And I'm like, well, that's good. Like, I want that. I don't want someone using weird, long, strange words. I'm like, what like it feels right.
00:29:25
Speaker
So much so that like the next line is, I'm afraid I don't know. break what kind of person I am you know that is like that is the that two line that is the break right because it would be very different if the whole line was I'm afraid I don't know what kind person I am if it was a traditional like longer line for you it would land but it would land in a very particular way the break means like it opens up I'm afraid I don't know what kind of person i am like that to me is like why this thinner poem works Yes. i I love talking to poets because I can, i I can, like, you get that, like, that, that line break is, that's, like, a scary thing for me to do the at the point I was in my life. Like, yeah I don't, I think, like, I always constantly need to be reminded that, like, the things I was saying before, just that that like, i love when people are honest and open and genuine. And so like, it's okay that I could do that too. Like that's what a poem is literally for.
00:30:21
Speaker
You know, but yeah. me Like you want someone to think with it, right? Like I want to weigh in, but then I also want to be like, like, I want to gasp a little bit. Right. And I, I mean, I do that throughout your book. Like every single, I was reading on the train and I was just like, and I was like, okay, put it down, Chris, put it down.
00:30:37
Speaker
Thank you. But I also think like, it's a move where it's like, probably i had the idea in my head. I have to imagine that like, I would answer the question in the title at some point yeah in a genuine, with the genuine answer.
00:30:50
Speaker
And so, you know, like even that is something that I think I would have been scared to do or feel like I couldn't have pulled off, you know, to be like, oh, actually I didn't forget by the way, like I'm getting the question for you. Like you just have to wait for it.
00:31:04
Speaker
You gotta get through all this other stuff. Like, It is like, it is such a, it's like such a vulnerable line break. Yeah, but, ah but vulnerable and like super powerful because even then, like the next bit, I thought I would get a chance to do my life over it in all the ways anyone could think of. Dying break would be like changing the channel. Like, well, you're really like giving it to us now, right? You're like, okay, we're not holding back. Dying would be like changing the channel. It's such like a...
00:31:33
Speaker
Yeah, such like a good startling image. I hate that you can't hold on break, to anything. You know, like the poem is trying to hold on. We're trying to hold on. And you were like quite relentless at this last bit. It's like you put the like pedal to the metal or whatever the phrase is. I don't know. Like you put you put your foot on the gas by the end.
00:31:53
Speaker
And then you do the swerve of all swerves. Midline, like to anything, full stop. I was watching an apple break. It's like, we've gone back to the apple stash there. Like you just got us to dying would be like changing the channel.
00:32:06
Speaker
yeah And instead we get, I was washing an apple and then I was coring it and then it was cut. And that was weeks ago now. Somehow that's like the saddest line of the poem. you know like so It's gone.
00:32:17
Speaker
it was a honey crisp and it lived up to its name. Also like living up, I think it's like a gorgeous idea, right? like yeah Like the honey crisp lives up to its name, but also like, and it lived up.
00:32:30
Speaker
yeah Not like lived down or lived side. I don't know. There's something quite um startling about that. Right after the saddest thing I've ever read in my life. Yeah. yeah Yeah. And I'm just like, you know, a lesser poet, shall we say, would end on, I hate that you can't hold on to anything.
00:32:46
Speaker
But instead you took us back to the apple and this particularity. Do you remember that moment? Do you like, did you realize that you like needed to go somewhere else? I think I literally had had that thought.
00:32:59
Speaker
yeah Like ah that was genuine. that was another That was just one of those images. I think I like, this was also a time in my life, despite everything I've just said. i was I think I was like falling in love for real for the first time in my life, which is a crazy thing to bring up at this point right now. Yeah, bury the lead. Yeah. But I think that like I remembered i was standing in his kitchen And I had like, it was, you know, like i it was my first really like real, really adult relationship. i was
00:33:31
Speaker
And like, I had never like been in a relationship where someone was like, yeah, you can just be at my house and I'm not there. Like, it doesn't matter. don't care. You know what I mean? Like that was new to me. wow And I remember standing there, like cutting this apple up for myself before I was going to like, like he had been at work for a couple hours or whatever, something like that. Or I was meeting him somewhere. Like, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I just remember feeling like this is such a special moment. like i've Like I'm in someone else's house and he likes me and I can like, and he got this apple for me and now I'm cutting it like, and I know where the,
00:34:03
Speaker
Like I know where the cutting board is. And I know like it was just like a really beautiful moment. And i think that like it had been just in my mind. I don't know that I had had that. And so like maybe the carrot line and the cashier like, yeah, I i wish I knew because but I think it was kind of like that apple I had been i had written that apple thing down.
00:34:25
Speaker
And then you're like, this needs to go at the end. i don't know, like you're really describing the writing process and it just makes me even more stressed out because you're just doing this, like you're just going, like, it just feels right. And I'm like, no, I want the trick of how you did this.
00:34:39
Speaker
I wish there was a trick, but i I think that like genuinely that was like an image I had written down and didn't know what to do with. And then and I think in the moment I was like, oh shit, I had just written the thing about the fucking apple. Yeah.
00:34:55
Speaker
Like, I think that's what it was. And and also, like, um just because I had already talked about the kale and carrots and all that stuff, like, I bet that what happened is I did that and then I went back and added the line about there are people who aren't like me. They don't know all the different apples. Yeah.
00:35:14
Speaker
Because I bet like just as kind of like to prepare you that that's coming back maybe or whatever. yeah and maybe yeah And also Honeycrisp Apple. There's nothing like that.
00:35:25
Speaker
But as I'm i'm looking through, the i found, like I said, I found this old like draft of the poem in my in my notes. Beautiful, yeah. And it's literally a poem about being scared of...
00:35:39
Speaker
the basement of my house oh because there was like a hot tub down there he and it was like in the back. And I think I was scared of that. And so then what happens is sometimes like I'll have a document where I like start to write a poem and then I will use that document for like other lines.
00:36:02
Speaker
yeah And I think that it literally is so funny because the title of the, the thing, is what am I afraid of? This last time this was edited was December, 2021. And then it says the silence.
00:36:14
Speaker
And then it says I was washing an apple and then I was coring it, then it was cut. Except for there's like a weird fact about piranhas being biologically male or something like that. It doesn't matter. And then it starts talking about the hot tub and the doctor and how scary it was and all this stuff. So like, it looks like the it's the beginning of the poem in this draft. Like, don't know what happened. Yeah, exactly. like I think I probably had that image and then wrote the poem out of that image, but didn't realize that they were connected and then put them together. Like, yeah, it is always like we're like, OK, it's like ah you're constantly battling between like craft and like what feels right.
00:36:50
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And strange alchemy. But like what feels right is like good. The only other thought, like before I ask you about your writing practice, which now I'm like super interested in, it's like it lived up to its name is like the last word of the poem.
00:37:03
Speaker
And I can't help but like link that to the title of the collection. Right. Yeah. Like, i you know, like the idea of naming. And I know, like, I think you've said an interview, like Joy is your middle name.
00:37:13
Speaker
ah But also like just it's just a brilliant like double meaning. Like the poem has done so much to say, like identity is complicated. The self is like unknowable. Sometimes the kind of person you are is strange. But like the Honeycrisp living up to its name is like the poem's apex. I'm like.
00:37:29
Speaker
okay, I don't know what that does for me now. Like, what do I do with that? Right? Like, how does how does one live up to their name? Yeah. i I don't know. Yeah. but Like, I feel like um maybe that is coming back to just the idea of like, you know, my friend that I was missing. And it's like, that being like, you know, my, what am I about to be, you know? Like, it's such a, but it's really, i think it ends on this really optimistic note. Like, I And then i just love food and poems. Like to say that a little, I'm immediately like, I can like taste in my mouth yeah and it's, it's honey and it's crisp. Like it leaves you with a taste in your mouth. I think that's just so nice. Like, yeah I don't know. And I think that like, I was always trying to put a bow on a poem and hit you over the head and like stab you in the stomach, like, and be like, look how like great I am at any of this poem. And I think that like, this was again, like me trying to just be quieter to just kind of like try my hardest to like not say a big thing. yep
00:38:35
Speaker
Like just to be like, okay, I'm going to end on this image of me, like coring this apple. Like, is this okay? Like, yeah. Yeah. I keep away with this like i think you get away with it.
00:38:46
Speaker
I think you did. I was reading over this, this old draft or this poem and it actually is, The whole center of this poem is me, my friend. God knows which friend this is. I want to ask and find out who it is. But they had gone to a meditation retreat.
00:39:02
Speaker
And it was this concept of how you can think your thoughts and let them go. And I think that's what it was of like, I'm going to cut this apple and then I'm going to let it go. Like, like like it's a thought. Like, what I wrote down here is like, you think your thoughts and let them go the same way you smell a fart or taste a pear. the thought is gone and the fart is gone and the pair is gone too. I think that's literally where this, kid this is like the ugly version of this.
00:39:28
Speaker
I love both versions. I know. I'm like, maybe I can write them. Like what should I, should do something. I wouldn't you know now I am so interested in your writing process like obviously you're writing in these different documents and you're going back to them but do you have like a set time or setup like do you have like a practice or ritual or are you just doing it as and when like typing on your phone etc.
00:39:53
Speaker
I feel like it really depends. I definitely should sit down and write more. Duh. Like, honestly, you know, I should sit down and like write something down every day in the morning or whatever. But like, that's just not my life. That's not lot of people's lives. Like, you know, if I think ah I would rather write something in my iPhone than not write something, you know? like Even though I thought, you know, people are like, I should be on a typewriter drinking. Yeah.
00:40:21
Speaker
cup of tea. Like, that's not what we're doing here. Like, sometimes I'm on the bus. I literally just wrote a poem on the bus two days ago, like in my phone, you know, like, and it was a short poem. So I probably won't change it very much. But if it were a long poem, I think it would be similar to like this where, you know, like, there's just kind of like a document with like, maybe a skeleton of a poem and then like, images and things I overheard like in that kind of time period. yeah And I think I just trust my like self enough at this time in my life.
00:40:53
Speaker
Not like, oh, i i'm so I'm so good. I trust myself enough. I literally like you just have to trust that like there was a reason why you were thinking about those things.
00:41:04
Speaker
Like um what did I just I was reading my friend Rob's sub stack and he had the description that Frank O'Hara said of like, I see this, I see that. I'm like, yeah, okay. Like I'm enough. i can be the glue or whatever. Yeah. I feel like I just, I'll generally like, I'll have something, I'll have some idea. I'll type it on my computer, like on a document. And then when it gets to a point where I like actually really think it's good enough to keep working on it, I'll like put it in a Google doc and then I have access to it on my phone. But like it has to make it out of the document. I feel like um my my computer is full of documents that are like a really good title.
00:41:40
Speaker
yeah And like one line. Yeah. so Like I feel seen. someone says something to me other day and I was like, can I just write that down? and they were like, sure. And I just like wrote it. It's just on a sticky on my desktop.
00:41:55
Speaker
like, have I written it? No, maybe it'll come back one day. Who knows? Literally. i mean, I can't literally, I remember the day in like 2015 when that guy said that to me about the fucking meat. Like you never know when stuff is going to come back.
00:42:10
Speaker
why you have to write it down. Yeah, but your but your poems are so, i don't what the word is, like sin it'syn they synthesize so much, so many different kinds of cultural references and like registers. And I'm just always like, wait, how did you hold all of those things together like in your brain, but then also on the page, right? like you You do lots of kind of cultural swerves so often that I'm like, how did we go here? And yes, I'm really interested in this idea of like you know collecting and taking pieces from here and here and like moving them around.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think like definitely i i heard a poet once be like, oh, I just like I write down a bunch of lines and images and then like when I have enough of them, I'll like try and turn it into a poem. And I was like, that's not writing.
00:42:52
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like, I was like, that's cheating. Like, probably that was not, you know, like, that's not nice of me to say. I think whatever. And like, I would never say that to like my student or, you know, I'm like, whatever, yeah all his writing is writing. But so I don't, I don't do that.
00:43:08
Speaker
Like, i definitely am like, I have an idea and I have a thing, but like, I think it comes from one, just like, I like that a poem is like a very, like, it feels like always like a pretentious, like space I can't have access to. And so I'm like, well, I'll put the Real Housewives in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:27
Speaker
Like, you know, and and and like just um just like truly trusting that like I've pulled it off before so I can do it again. like and and And a lot of times like, like the poem I wrote on the bus the other day, it was like a breakup poem and i was really sad and I was just like,
00:43:48
Speaker
writing about Lee, I was writing about the civil war, you know? And yeah, du and, but I genuinely like, i think it's, it's just safer.
00:44:00
Speaker
it feels safer for me to be able to so talk about these things I feel comfortable with because I'm so uncomfortable talking about like, I'm sad. So like it's coming from a place I think also just like, you know, I'm going to put it all in there and like, you know, you all admit the thing I'm feeling, but it's it's going to be kind of packed in. and And also like I'm someone who like my whole life I'm like trying to be like, hey, everyone, am i I'm really obsessed with whatever X, Y, Z. yeah yeah Everyone is like, Sasha, stop talking about that.
00:44:30
Speaker
And then I'm like, okay, fine. I'll just like, I'll write about it. I guess you guys won't listen to me. Like I'll put it in my poem or like, and I'll make you listen, you know? like I love that. Okay. I want to ask you given that you do teach creative writing, are there any kind of like lessons or tips or kind of like things you set your students to do that you might want to share with listeners?
00:44:52
Speaker
Like a little thing. Oh, we do all kinds of weird stuff. This is not something that I thought of myself at all. I took this probably from, I know that someone I worked with at a camp in Michigan did this with their students and I kind of like took it and um um like moved into other stuff. But um i I really love...
00:45:14
Speaker
I really love making my students sit on the ground and write like and then make my students like write with their left hand. Like someone was just like, you know, we put so much emphasis on like. making these changes. Like what I was just talking about being like, I'm going to try and write shorter lines and like, I'm going to do all this stuff, but rarely do we ever like physically change like the physical way that we write. And instead yeah, especially for me, someone who I'm always cutting out like three words per line. When um'm when I do a thing where I have to write in my left hand, like it's the only means by which I will not
00:45:51
Speaker
use 10 words when I could use three. I'm like, well I'm not writing 10 words with my left hand. I guess I'll figure out how to write it in three words this time. So I liked making them do that because then they also get angry. But the thing that I'm doing right now is with my intro students, we have to do like a collaborative project. And so something that I do is I'm always taking pictures, like just of every little image. So right now I'm just having them each like have a just like a folder in their phone where they like, I'm called I don't know, in one class, I called it beautiful things. And the other class, I called it little details. And I want to see what if that makes a difference or whatever. But I don't know, like, I'm always just like, if I see something, I'm taking a picture. of Like, it's not just notes. And then a lot of times I'll put that picture in my notes. But I feel like,
00:46:42
Speaker
especially for like younger kids like and me too i'm like always like i want to put my headphones on i want to be looking at my phone like yeah yeah it's it's a good experiment to be like i actually have to get up and like look in the yeah pay attention notice Yeah. Yeah. And then I just really want people to realize that like, I tried to show them examples of things that like aren't typically beautiful, you know, like the electric scooter buried in the snow, like you know, things like that. Like it's, I think the thing that kept me from writing poetry is like feeling like it I didn't see myself reflected in it. And I didn't see like my, I try and tell them like, yeah, you can put, put that in a poem.
00:47:24
Speaker
Yeah. Whatever have you want. Put it in there. Yeah. Just put it in there. Yeah, like no one's going to stop you. No, it's your poem. Yes. Yeah. har Okay, my last question, other than Diane Zeus, obviously, but like what books might you recommend to listeners? Things you're reading now, old things, new things, things you return to, whatever you like. It doesn't have to be poetry, but obviously. Oh my gosh.
00:47:51
Speaker
Right now I just started reading... The Coin, which is a novel. i literally read like 45 student submissions and then like was moving things around in my backpack and like pulled the novel out and it was like, I'll just read the first page. Even though I just...
00:48:07
Speaker
read things I didn't necessarily want to be reading for like the last four hours. And I like physically could not stop reading it. i It was just like, yeah, gi like pulling me through. So I feel like the second the class, the school week's over, like Saturday morning, I'm just going to wake up and like, just finish that. I'm loving it.
00:48:24
Speaker
I really love, well, like literally just here, I was looking through these. I have, this is um Stephen Duong's book. At the End of the World There Is a Pond. Stephen and I did like the MFA together and our books both came on Norton together. oh and i I love this this book. And then there's lots of sonnets in it. Stephen's a fiction writer, technically. I mean, like obviously he's a book of poems, so he's a poet.
00:48:48
Speaker
um Like there's all these, there's like this like series of sonnets that are called novel and it's like about writing a novel. o And it's just like, so interesting. I love, I love the book and I just love the cover to it. So yeah. And then I've, I just, I always tell people to read this book. So it's like the best book ever written at Lisa Gonzalez's grand tour. It's just like, I'm just,
00:49:13
Speaker
I feel like Gizara, I don't know if you feel this, but sometimes you see other people who are really successful and like beautiful and wonderful. And you're like, that's annoying. And, you and then like, you read their book and like, at least that was my experience with Elise. Not that's annoying, but I was like, wow, like we're about the same age and she's so beautiful and so smart. And then I read the book and I was like, oh, and also like, this is the best book ever written. Like, okay, cool. Like, good to know. Like, you just can't even be jealous of someone at that point.
00:49:43
Speaker
fit And you're like, yeah wow, I'm so happy for you. But um yeah, I just think this is like, this is such a beautiful, Grand Tour is such a beautiful book. And then also like one of my students one day was really like, you would love this poem and brought me a poem from this book. And so I think it's like accessible and and also like super challenging.
00:50:03
Speaker
Like, I just think it's, she's just such a master. I'm so excited to finish the coin. Like I like can't wait until the so the week is over so I could just read it all at once. Definitely. You're the second person that's recommended it in this month. Okay. Wow. This is huge. It's clearly the book that everyone should be reading right now. So yeah, go read it people. love it Well, my book got nominated for some prize, like long listed for some prize. And then I was like, well, I'll read what won last year to see if I've shot. And then I was like, but I love this book.
00:50:34
Speaker
Sasha, when you described that other book, like, oh, these people, like, oh, they're just, like, amazing and talented and, like, this is how I feel about you. So, like, please take this away. And someone else probably feels that way about you, too. It's all a circle. It's just a circle, yeah.
00:50:50
Speaker
Like, we all, we're all just, like, each other's fans. Yeah, exactly. This has been amazing. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a real joy to talk to you. Ditto. this is a i'm So I'm like, get me back to the UK. I want to be friends.
00:51:05
Speaker
yeah Anytime, please come back, come back. Okay, perfect. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you want more poetry conversations, I recommend you could go back to episode four where I talked to Richie Hoffman or episode nine where I talked to Victoria Adukwe Bully.
00:51:25
Speaker
Please subscribe if you haven't already, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or YouTube and do share with people on social media. Follow the show and me on Instagram at booksupclose.
00:51:36
Speaker
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00:51:48
Speaker
You can also get show transcripts and more information by subscribing to the Substack. Books Up Close was made possible by an Impact Accelerator Award from the University of Hertfordshire and the Arts and Humanities Research Council.