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Episode 5: Broadening the Table: Membership, Access, and DEI in NAAHP
15 Plays28 days ago
In this episode of The Lunch Hour, hosted by the NAAHP Committee on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (CDEI), we’re joined by Theresa Blackman from the University of Tennessee Chattanooga—Chair of the NAAHP Membership Committee. Together, we dive into the evolving landscape of NAAHP membership categories, exploring how they intersect with access, inclusion, and the broader work of DEI. Theresa offers insights into the intentional strategies being developed to diversify NAAHP’s membership, the behind-the-scenes efforts of the Membership Committee, and how expanding who’s at the table strengthens our collective impact.
Pull up a seat—this is a conversation about representation, reimagining structures, and building a more inclusive advising community.
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Transcript
Introduction to Membership Discussion
00:00:01
John Moses-Brownson
All right. Welcome back to another episode of the Lunch Hour podcast. So this week we have, um the call is coming from inside the house, right?
00:00:11
Tahnee Prokopow
Thank you.
00:00:14
John Moses-Brownson
We're talking about NAP membership. Who decides? What that look like? What is the future of membership with our organization really look like?
00:00:25
John Moses-Brownson
And what is the thought and care that's going into that conversation? so This is ah really timely conversation about who is included, why, and again, who gets to decide.
00:00:37
John Moses-Brownson
So thanks for joining us for another super wonderful episode of The Lunch Hour.
00:00:59
John Moses-Brownson
All
Meet the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee
00:01:00
John Moses-Brownson
right, hello and welcome to The Lunch Hour, the official podcast of NAPS CDEI, which is the Committee for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. Each episode we seek to educate, connect and grow together as a community working to help prepare and support tomorrow's health care leaders.
00:01:19
John Moses-Brownson
My name is John Moses Bronson. I'm the Associate Director of ah Health Professions Advising. at Elon University in beautiful Elon, North Carolina.
00:01:30
John Moses-Brownson
I am joined today by several members of the Committee of on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for NAP. I will let them introduce themselves, but we will be doing this popcorn style.
00:01:42
John Moses-Brownson
ah We are going to start with our friend Tani Prokopo. Tani, go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners.
00:01:49
Tahnee Prokopow
Hello, everyone. I'm Tani Prokopo, Director of Health Professions Advising at the University of Michigan-Dearborn.
00:01:57
John Moses-Brownson
right, let's popcorn Taya.
00:02:00
Taya Jackson
Hello everyone, my name is Taya Jackson. I'm a health professions advisor at Montclair State University in Montclair, New Jersey.
00:02:07
John Moses-Brownson
All right, and lastly, but not leastly, sorry.
00:02:11
Zuri
Never leastly. ah
00:02:13
John Moses-Brownson
Never, there is no least on this committee.
00:02:14
Zuri
um Right, exactly. um I'm Zori Bennett. I am the assistant director at Johns Hopkins University Office of Pre-Professional um Programs and Advising.
00:02:28
John Moses-Brownson
All right. So thank you, CDI folks, for helping us to facilitate this conversation.
Roles and Contributions of Teresa Blackman
00:02:33
John Moses-Brownson
We're now going to um shift our attention to the person in, let's call it the lukewarm seat, not the hot seat, because we are nothing if not friendly.
00:02:40
Theresa
that's
00:02:44
John Moses-Brownson
ah Teresa Blackman, can you please let our listeners know who you are and what role you take care of within now?
00:02:55
Theresa
I do lots of things. so ah
00:02:56
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:02:57
Theresa
up So I'm Teresa Blackman. I'm the assistant director for pre-health student services at the University of Tennessee Chattanooga, which is the only system school that doesn't have orange as our color. So um we, know, no offense to the orange, but it's a hard color.
00:03:14
Theresa
It's a hard color to pull off. um But I, yeah, so I work with all manner of health profession students in my job. And in that, excuse me, i do a lot of things.
00:03:26
Theresa
um So I am the chair of the membership committee, which has been very exciting. I stepped into that role last year. And I'm also on the planning committee for the 2026 conference in New Orleans, which I'm excited about.
00:03:40
Theresa
um So I might be coming to everyone later to see if you want to help volunteer because I'm on the volunteer side of things. Yeah. um And I'm also the secretary of SAP.
00:03:51
Theresa
So I'm in the Southeastern healthcare region and I'm on the board there. So I do lots of things.
00:03:56
John Moses-Brownson
Wonderful. Yeah. Sap babies.
00:03:59
Theresa
it
00:04:01
John Moses-Brownson
Alrighty. So um thank you so much for giving us that overview of like sort of your professional contributions to NAP and sort of like where you come from professionally. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself outside of that professional capacity?
00:04:16
John Moses-Brownson
What do you like when you're off the clock? Any hobbies, interests, you know, obsessions? Yeah.
00:04:23
Theresa
I joke that I have the hobbies of a 90 year old, um, except for one.
00:04:26
John Moses-Brownson
sir
00:04:27
Theresa
Um, so I love to crochet. i like to garden. Um, I like to read, um, but I'm also a runner. Um, so I'm a really active 90 year old.
00:04:38
John Moses-Brownson
I feel that my dad will be that person when he's 90.
00:04:40
Zuri
I love it.
00:04:43
John Moses-Brownson
The man goes out and he's like, I chopped down a tree and cut it up for firewood every day. and I'm just like, listen, and dog, you are in your seventies.
00:04:49
Theresa
Yeah, no big deal. Totally fine. I don't, right
00:04:53
John Moses-Brownson
It's too late for that.
00:04:56
Theresa
I don't chop trees down, but I pay unnecessarily large amounts of money to run distances for shiny bits of metal. So I'm a South Florida girl. I was born and raised in South Florida, which is why i don't sound like I'm from Tennessee.
00:05:10
Theresa
um People think I'm from Pennsylvania, which is interesting.
00:05:13
John Moses-Brownson
You do have like an eerie accent.
00:05:15
Theresa
Interesting. Never been to Pennsylvania.
00:05:17
John Moses-Brownson
No?
00:05:18
Theresa
So apparently Vero Beach, Florida is the Pennsylvania of the South.
00:05:18
John Moses-Brownson
No.
00:05:22
Zuri
I'm flutter.
00:05:23
Theresa
ah of the Florida.
00:05:24
John Moses-Brownson
ah So as someone who lived in Pennsylvania for 25 years, um there's a lot of Pennsylvanians that go to Vero Beach specifically.
00:05:24
Theresa
Yeah.
00:05:36
John Moses-Brownson
It's like this really interesting corridor. So I wonder if you just hit critical mass there and you just absorbed that by proxy.
00:05:39
Theresa
Interesting. Maybe. Yeah. Well, you know, when you grow up in South Florida, like it's only popular, like it's half populated for half the year, um you know, between September and February,
00:05:53
Theresa
There are twice as many people there. ah And then they go back up north because that's how Florida works.
00:05:57
Zuri
Exactly.
00:05:58
Theresa
But yeah, no. So I'm originally from South Florida. So I grew up going to Disney World. um And so my husband and I do run Disney events.
00:06:03
John Moses-Brownson
Yes.
00:06:06
Theresa
um So if anyone wants, I can show you a picture of him as the best Disney princess.
00:06:07
John Moses-Brownson
I
00:06:14
Theresa
um If anyone watches MASH from back in the 70s.
00:06:14
John Moses-Brownson
agree.
00:06:17
Theresa
um So Disney owns Fox and Clinger, who famously
00:06:21
John Moses-Brownson
she
00:06:22
Theresa
as a cross dresses up as a lady in order to get out of the army is the most magical of Disney princesses. So he dressed up as clinger, um, the last race that we did.
00:06:31
John Moses-Brownson
i agree
00:06:35
Theresa
Um, and it was like, it was great fun.
00:06:35
John Moses-Brownson
Love that.
00:06:37
Theresa
So that's what we do,
00:06:38
John Moses-Brownson
All right.
Exploring NAP Membership Categories
00:06:39
John Moses-Brownson
Well, thank you so much. So we are now going to try ah transition into like the meat and potatoes of today's session. and I think Zuri, you're going to get us started. Yeah.
00:06:40
Theresa
you know,
00:06:48
Zuri
Yeah, I am. And, you know, um i really appreciate ah Teresa for, well, one, I will say it's been a benefit having committee chairs meet together um to kind of have a better understanding of what everyone is doing as it pertains to the bigger goal of NAP and the regions.
00:07:05
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:07:07
Zuri
So um in one of those meetings, we were like, ah yeah, we can collab. Let's talk about this. So thank you Teresa, for being ecstatic about being on the podcast and being able to discuss a topic that I don't know that a lot of advisor members even realize how large the community of NAP is.
00:07:31
Zuri
So um I would love to start with giving context to our listeners and helping us understand who makes up the association in terms of membership, what does that look like?
00:07:44
Zuri
And then what is the role of your committee in terms of major areas of development as as it pertains to membership?
00:07:54
Theresa
Yeah, sure. So there are seven membership categories. And depending on what you do determines what type of member you are. um And the member type that probably everyone's the most familiar with is advisor.
00:08:09
Theresa
um And so self-explanatory, you're an advisor. You work for a college or a university and you have the bulk of your role.
00:08:20
Theresa
You deal with pre-health advising in some capacity. um And so advisor members are members of NAP, but they are also regional members. So depending on where geographically your college is located, you are also eligible to join ah regional association.
00:08:39
Theresa
So that is the advisor membership. And again, what everyone's most sort of familiar with. Then we have affiliate members. And so these are folks that don't work for a degree, uh, granting institution.
00:08:54
Theresa
Um, they tend to work for nonprofits. Um, they are,
00:09:03
Theresa
so they're sort of our partners. so people like, um, like our committee, um, Chuck Camille, and I'll, he is, um,
00:09:14
Theresa
on the affiliate side because he works for Student Doctor Network. So he doesn't advise students, um but he works in that area.
00:09:18
Zuri
Thank you.
00:09:25
Theresa
um Affiliate members are not um eligible for regional membership. They're not recognized by regions, um and they are also not eligible for board positions or any sort of leadership, which we'll probably talk about later ah in this podcast.
00:09:42
Theresa
um Then we have community college members. And so these folks mirror our advisor membership pretty consistently. The only difference is they work at a community college rather than four year institution.
00:09:56
Theresa
They are eligible for regional membership. They are eligible to be in leadership. Then we have our independent advisors, which we'll probably talk about this a little bit more in the podcast as well.
00:10:07
Zuri
Yeah, we
00:10:08
Theresa
These are slightly controversial. um People have big feelings about the independent advisor um role um because, yeah, I mean, the that there is some hype that is correct.
00:10:22
Theresa
um But so as we all know, generalizations don't mean that that's how everyone is. um But independent advisors do not work for, they work for themselves. um They're independent contractors.
00:10:34
Theresa
They may work with a university. It's actually becoming a little bit common, especially, know, in this economy, ah which we won't go down that rabbit trail, where um folks are seeing budget cuts.
00:10:46
Zuri
well
00:10:50
Theresa
So pre-health advisors are actually hanging out their own chigg not singing that shingle. There we go. That's the word we were looking for. um And contracting back to the university that they worked for um as an independent contractor.
00:11:06
Theresa
um and the university saves money because they are just paying a contractor fee. They're not necessarily paying for benefits and retirement and health insurance and all that stuff. So independent advising is on the rise um just nationally in in various capacities, but these folks do what advisors do. They just don't work for college.
00:11:29
Theresa
um And they are also not eligible for leadership or recognized by the um regions um Then we have patron members.
00:11:40
Theresa
These are folks that could be advisors. They do work for colleges and universities. The big thing with patron members is they serve on a position that determines policy or um admission decisions.
00:11:53
Theresa
um And so they are not recognized by regions. They are not eligible for, um no, I think they are. It depends.
00:12:04
Theresa
um there's There's gray area in in patron members ability to be on anne leadership. I think they're able to, if I remember correctly, they're able to serve in leadership positions on the national level, but because they are not recognized as regional members, they can't do anything with the regions.
00:12:23
Theresa
um Then we have our association advisor or association members. These are people that are affiliated with like AMCAS, AAMC, CASPA. um They,
00:12:35
Theresa
are also not represent recognized by the regions. um And they kind of form a less advising, more advising us role.
00:12:46
Theresa
um And then our last one is our emeritus members. um And these are folks that have retired. They've been a member in some capacity as an advisor, community college member, or patron for at least five years before they retired. And then they are a Emeritus member.
00:13:04
Theresa
And so they're sharing their wisdom with us. So yeah, those are our membership categories. Um, and if you want to learn more, they're on our website on the NAP website.
00:13:10
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:13:15
Theresa
Um, and so if you are not sure what kind of membership you fall into, there you go. Um, and I think we asked, yeah, it's a lot.
00:13:21
Zuri
yeah It's definitely helpful.
00:13:24
Theresa
I was actually referring to it while I was talking you.
00:13:27
Zuri
yeah Yeah.
00:13:27
Theresa
I'll just make, make sure I remembered. Um, But i think you also asked about like what our committee does, right?
00:13:35
Zuri
So like in terms of the membership committee, how do you essentially work within the context of the executive board and what um essentially you handle in terms of supporting the membership?
00:13:50
Theresa
Yeah, so we're kind of in a renaissance with the committee. So there's a lot of stuff that our committee is doing now that historically they haven't really done.
00:14:01
Theresa
um So historically, the membership committee has been sort of making sure that people are in the right categories. And we advise the board and the national office if there's any questions. So we had a situation where um the national office was contacted, um an individual wanted their administrative assistance to have NAP membership because they wanted access to all of the data that advisors have.
00:14:29
Theresa
um And so the national office kicked it to our committee and said, hey, what do you guys think? Do you think this falls under a membership category? um And we met, talked through it, um voted, and we did not feel that that was um appropriate to offer those individuals membership because they weren't involved in advising students. They simply wanted access to the like advisor portal and things like that, which are great perks for our members. If you don't know, um our advisor members do get that access. Our independent advisors don't.
00:15:08
Theresa
So um again, we'll talk about that later. ah But um so, so we help ensure that the national office is holding true to those membership types that if there's questions, um, we are, are sort of weighing in on that. And our committee is the only one that has a membership, like each membership type represented.
00:15:34
Theresa
um there's some current discussions going on as we're looking at, um, bylaws and things within NAP of like what the definition of leadership is, is it serving on a committee? Is it leading a committee? Is it being on the board?
00:15:50
Theresa
Um, it's unclear. Um, and so the board I think is, is doing some work on that, but, um, because of that, people like independent advisors, patron associate, our affiliates don't, aren't able to serve on other committees.
00:16:02
John Moses-Brownson
I don't know.
00:16:06
Theresa
So this is really the only place that those membership types have a voice.
00:16:10
Zuri
Mm-hmm.
00:16:10
Theresa
And I'm super grateful for that voice because it it really brings a different perspective. And so when we are asked about, um,
00:16:22
Theresa
membership sort of types and like, would this person be eligible? We're able to really kind of give a good, well-rounded um answer to that. um But what we're doing now is we're looking at things like um code of conduct, ethics type things. We're looking at expanding, we're advocating.
00:16:42
Theresa
and That's one of the things that we added to our charge is the advocation of members. And so we're advocating for some more equitable representation for all our members and things like that.
00:16:53
Theresa
Yeah, so that's what we're doing.
00:16:56
Zuri
That's great.
Challenges of Equitable Access in NAP Membership
00:16:57
Zuri
um I think, Taya, you might have a question that actually clarifies
00:17:07
Taya Jackson
Yes, how does access intersect in this conversation between all the memberships?
00:17:17
Theresa
What do you mean access? Like who gets to be a member?
00:17:23
John Moses-Brownson
I think access is really how we are framing it, right, is how we think about access to like higher education institutions, right? um You know, we have created access for a lot of people, but what does meaningful access actually look like? Like, yes, a student from low socioeconomic status could be admitted to a college, but if we don't have the infrastructure to properly support them, is that access meaningful? So how does this idea of letting people in at support structures, how does that intersect from your perspective in this membership and your committee's perspective on this sort of like layered conversation?
00:18:04
Theresa
Gotcha. So for us, so the membership committee sort of was dormant for a little while. And when I stepped into chairing it, we sort of came back up. So most of the folks in the committee, we've, they've not been in it much longer than I have. And so we have been asking lots of questions.
00:18:23
Theresa
Um, and one of our questions is why do we're going to use independent advisors batten down the hatches people, big feelings.
00:18:31
Zuri
Yeah.
00:18:31
Theresa
Um, Why do independent advisors pay $800 a year for access in quotation marks to NAP when they're not recognized by the regions?
00:18:45
Theresa
They are not given the same tools that advisors do. They like don't have apps ah like the free MSR thing that we get, like independent advisors don't get that. um So what, what is the reason, like, why are they paying more money for less,
00:19:03
Theresa
resources. um
00:19:04
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:19:05
Theresa
And so we're starting to push questions. And that's one of the reasons that we're looking at creating this sort of court of conduct ethics policy for leadership is that there are big feelings towards, um not trying to pick on independent advisors, but there are big feelings towards independent advisors being in leadership because sort of the boogeyman fear is that these companies that are charging like $900 an hour and giving students bad information and really just like taking advantage of students and their desire to get into professional healthcare programs are going to come in and they're going to fundamentally like move NAP in a direction where it's for profit and you know it's just going to be a hellscape.
00:19:56
Theresa
And so the majority of independent advisors are not these large companies. The majority of independent advisors are people like us who worked in higher education. They worked for a college or a university.
00:20:09
Theresa
And for whatever reason, they decided to go out and have their own business and they have to pay for all of the things that we don't think about.
00:20:14
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:20:20
Theresa
Like my computer is on its death's door. So all I have to do is say, Hey, you to CID, it like I need a computer refresh. Like that is the extent of the concern that I have. If my computer dies,
00:20:32
Theresa
If I was an independent advisor, so much stress right now because, you know, we're having a fight with China. I'm not going to get political, but you know, we are, we're doing this. ah So electronics are now wildly more expensive, are going to be wildly more expensive.
00:20:47
Zuri
Very
00:20:47
John Moses-Brownson
Yeah.
00:20:49
Theresa
So if I have my own business, a laptop replacement is a much bigger deal than it is if I work at an institution. um And so that's the bulk of what who our independent advisors are, are standalone people just trying to and try to make a living.
00:21:06
John Moses-Brownson
yeah
00:21:07
Theresa
And so feel as a committee, it's it's really unfair to paint an entire membership group with a singular brush that they're all super rich and they all are just trying to take advantage.
00:21:22
Theresa
So one of the things that we have done is propose that the membership fee be adjusted um to something a little bit more reasonable um if we are not going to increase access to this membership type.
00:21:40
Theresa
um And so, I mean, that's one example. Another example would be, um And that's why we're really pushing this idea of wanting to expand recognition of membership. We're wanting to expand access to leadership because let's say you're advising, you're just a regular advisor doing your thing. And then a job opportunity opens up at your institution that now allows you to sit on the selection committee for like your school's public health program.
00:22:09
Theresa
Your membership category changes. You are now a patron member, which means effectively you are booted out of your regional membership because patron members are not recognized by the regions.
00:22:17
Zuri
Mm-hmm.
00:22:23
Theresa
If you're in a leadership position and your region, not anymore. um Your fee goes up from, and think it's around $300 for a patron member um and you have less access to the regions.
00:22:39
Theresa
um than you did before simply because your job change. Like, and so we just feel as a committee that if someone's doing great work, we should not punish them for getting opportunities to be better um because independent advisors can make more money.
00:22:57
Theresa
um Honestly, independent advisors make what regular pre-health advisor should make. ah ah We all know the struggle is real.
00:23:04
Zuri
Yeah. you know
00:23:05
Theresa
you you know To us, we just feel like it's fundamentally unfair to classify how someone has access to resources within regional and national membership based on their job, because a lot of us are doing the same thing.
00:23:23
Theresa
um So it's a very long roundabout way that hopefully answered your question. um But that's kind of, that's the feeling that our committee has.
00:23:31
John Moses-Brownson
Yeah.
00:23:32
Theresa
And that's what we're really taking that advocacy part that we added into our charge seriously. And we really are asking, you know, the national office and the board, hey, like, why are we doing these things if we don't have a good reason? Maybe let's not do anymore.
00:23:48
Theresa
Or maybe let's change it.
00:23:49
Zuri
Mm-hmm. All right.
00:23:51
Tahnee Prokopow
I definitely hear just because we always did it doesn't necessarily mean that's the answer to question.
00:23:57
Theresa
ah Exactly. Exactly.
00:23:59
Zuri
Mm-hmm.
00:24:00
Tahnee Prokopow
I have another question.
Advocacy for Fair Representation and Access
00:24:01
Tahnee Prokopow
um What challenges, and maybe this is what you're talking about, what challenges have you all experienced in giving voice to our entire membership where everybody feels they belong and and are invited to the table?
00:24:16
Theresa
Yeah, so definitely with our independent advisor friends, it's preconceived notions. um There's definitely independent advisors out there that are shysteamishishestorsons.
00:24:26
Theresa
There are definitely people out there saying, I have all of the answers, and if for the lower price of like $20 million, dollars like I got you.
00:24:27
John Moses-Brownson
Thank
00:24:35
Theresa
um
00:24:36
Zuri
golden ticket so
00:24:36
Theresa
ah Right? like And that's why the students too, like if it sounds too good to be true, probably is. Because like if this guy on YouTube wants like $400 and he could give you all the MCAT secrets.
00:24:48
Theresa
Why is he just for charging $400? Why doesn't everyone know about this? Like I promise Stan from YouTube did not unlock the MCAT. Um, but like, so there are definitely people out there, but we have all worked in higher education.
00:24:57
Zuri
yeah
00:25:05
Theresa
We have all had experience with folks who, yes, they have the title, but they are terrible at their jobs. And they also do not know what they are talking about. So who employs you does not necessarily dictate your quality, your honesty, your ability to do the job.
00:25:27
Theresa
And unfortunately, love it look at that, look at the sound.
00:25:29
Zuri
yeah And...
00:25:32
Theresa
um I was waiting for it. But So what we're trying to do as a committee is try to advocate for this membership type and showcasing like, yes, like there are problems with and independent advisors.
00:25:51
Theresa
Not all independent advisors are bad. And there are absolutely ways that we can partner with independent advisors to help people. And we should not sequester these people off into a corner and say, you can't play with us.
00:26:06
Theresa
because of some bad eggs. um I mean, a perfect example is, so in the Chattanooga area, like my office isn't. um And as of August, there's now two.
00:26:18
Theresa
From 2019 until August of this past year, it was me, but that was it. um And so there are several small colleges in the area that I would frequently have NAP send students to me, like the find your advisor,
00:26:36
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:26:36
Theresa
thing and be like, hey, can you help this student? And I would have to say no, because it was me trying to serve 1,700 UTC students and like my office serves prospective and alum. And I did not have, like I couldn't.
00:26:53
Theresa
um And so I would have to say no. If there was an independent advisor around here, i could say, hey, go talk to this person. They can absolutely help you.
00:27:03
Theresa
um and That would give more access. Look at us tying it back in. Here we are tying it coming around.
00:27:09
Zuri
period.
00:27:11
Theresa
More access to students to get into professional education. um Because outside of Chattanooga, like our area is fairly fairly rural, fairly low income, ah deeply red, deeply.
00:27:26
Theresa
So there is not as much ability for students from very small towns with very limited resources to become doctors. And if they don't have access to pre-health advising, they're even further behind.
00:27:41
Theresa
But if we were able to work with independent advisors, then how many more students could we help? How many more people that could have been doctors would be doctors right now? Could have cured cancer.
00:27:52
Theresa
Someone who could have cured cancer, maybe a Walmart grader now because we didn't have pre-health advising. Not that there's anything wrong with being a Walmart grader, um having done that in high school.
00:27:57
Tahnee Prokopow
Yeah.
00:28:02
Theresa
But...
00:28:03
Zuri
Yeah. Love it.
00:28:04
Theresa
but You know, so, yeah, I mean, we see a potential. And so one of the things we really want to do is try and challenge this narrative and provide guardrails for people to feel comfortable basically giving people a shot.
00:28:10
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:28:21
Theresa
And so one of the things that we're working on now is a code of conduct ethics for leadership. um that specifically addresses the concerns of using NAP for self-profit, you know, marketing off, you know, what NAP does um and really provides guidelines that way hope will make people more comfortable to give affiliate and patron and association or and um independent advisors opportunities to have more of a voice in, you know, ah organization.
00:28:55
Theresa
But yeah.
00:28:56
Zuri
yeah That's super helpful. um I think some of, um it's very easy as an advisor to get bogged down by the responsibilities that you have at your institution to sometimes just take a minute to understand the greater, like,
00:29:08
Theresa
Thank you.
00:29:14
Zuri
aspects that are at work when it comes to nap and then our regional associations. And so I wonder that many of our membership might have not, of course, they see the professional schools because in the associations, because they interact with them probably the most. And so it's particularly new advisors, I would say under five years are still kind of wrapping their mind around what they actually have access to.
00:29:40
Zuri
So I'm also like, as you explain what the role of the committee is, what you're aiming to do, developing this code of conduct, um, have you come across any challenges that were unexpected?
00:29:40
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:29:54
Zuri
i mean, i would assume that, that there was some, um, prediction of maybe pushback of the way that things are, um have already been done or have been structured in the past. But um knowing that the leadership, both at the executive level and at um the regional level um often have um voices within how this membership looks and everything. And so, yeah, what what challenges maybe have you come across when it comes to trying to talk about equity across membership that maybe was a little bit more unexpected?
00:30:32
Theresa
Yeah. So, I mean, um we've had great support with the national office. um Tony's been a great support in, especially with us sort of trying to readjust the um the fee for independent advisors.
00:30:46
Theresa
um And we're not going crazy. Like it's it's still it's still high, um but it's less high. So, um and our big argument has been because this this membership
00:30:57
Zuri
you
00:30:58
Theresa
fee is so expensive. Like we only have like 13 independent advisors. um And there are two sides of the camp. And that's kind of where the pushback is coming from.
00:31:09
Theresa
There are people that definitely think like they should, you know, independence shouldn't be involved in NAPA at all because they're giving bad information.
00:31:15
Tahnee Prokopow
Thank you.
00:31:16
Theresa
And we like, we don't want to let them in our club because then they'll know our secrets. um or they'll use our secrets against us. um But then there's the other side that's like, well, if they're giving bad information, wouldn't it be better to have them in NAP and have them have the right information so that they know um sort of ah not the independents are our enemies, but like, you know, keep your enemies close.
00:31:38
Theresa
like yeah Like if if we're going to go that route, like wouldn't that be like strategically better?
00:31:43
John Moses-Brownson
Yeah.
00:31:43
Theresa
So there' there's that pushback from people that just don't believe that that membership type really should have a space in our organization. um And then there's the pushback from folks that feel like that membership type is, you know, Scrooge McDuck um diving into his pile of money.
00:32:02
Theresa
And so we should charge them an arm and a leg. um And there are absolutely independent advisors who have like ridiculous amounts of money. um Not most of them.
00:32:13
Theresa
So that's sort of the pushback that we get.
00:32:14
John Moses-Brownson
yeah
00:32:16
Theresa
And it's not in any one particular area. This is sort of a fundamental issue. divide across sort of the entire organization. There are people within like the board that have different views about this.
00:32:31
Theresa
There are people within our committee that have different views about this.
00:32:34
John Moses-Brownson
Yeah.
00:32:35
Theresa
There are people within the regions that have different views. So we're really trying to focus on education to help people learn what these membership types are to help combat those preconceived notions.
00:32:46
John Moses-Brownson
yeah
00:32:49
Theresa
um And hopefully as we do that, the pushback and the sort of resistance will, will lessen and we'll have an opportunity for people to actually give folks a shot and not just independence, patron and affiliate members as well.
00:33:06
Theresa
um Cause there's a lot of movement within the organization too. We have people again, thinking about one of our committee members who was an advisor and there was a patron member and is now affiliate member. And like this person has so much institutional knowledge Like, why are we sequestering this person a away and not really leaning into what they know?
00:33:27
Theresa
And so making more equitable access for everyone helps everyone.
00:33:27
John Moses-Brownson
yeah
00:33:32
Theresa
So thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
00:33:33
John Moses-Brownson
yeah I think the
00:33:35
Zuri
Yes.
00:33:35
John Moses-Brownson
worst and we will come again. i think the part of this for me that always gets missed in this is the end user, right? These applicants that don't have access. I think we often think of like the people who utilize some of these services as Scrooge McDucks of their own, right? Just with like all of the money in all of the places in the whole planet.
00:34:00
John Moses-Brownson
But I think a lot of the you know, the the people that are utilizing these services are folks that didn't have access at their undergrad institutions or don't have, did not have great experiences for a variety of reasons.
00:34:09
Theresa
Thank you.
00:34:16
John Moses-Brownson
And I think that like by putting all of this information and skills behind this like, yeah you know, sort of imaginary wall, we are disproportionately affecting these applicants who have already been historically removed or prevented from you know reaching medical school.
00:34:39
John Moses-Brownson
It's just another way to catch more students and applicants.
00:34:42
Theresa
Mm-hmm.
00:34:43
John Moses-Brownson
And so from my perspective, like do i love the the Scrooge McDucks in that camp? No, but I also know some really great independent advisors that are like, oh, I do sliding scale. If a student can't afford to pay me, I don't charge them.
00:35:00
John Moses-Brownson
And that's the kind of access we need. So, you know, i'm I'm all here if we're gonna like make Scrooge McDuck, like take a few of his gold coins, but we're never gonna take all of Scrooge McDuck's gold coins to enrich our students.
00:35:16
John Moses-Brownson
But if those ones that are really filling gaps that we cannot fill through, like, you know, our advisor members, like to me, I think that's, it's just good sense for better service.
00:35:28
John Moses-Brownson
So I think this really,
00:35:28
Theresa
Right.
00:35:29
Zuri
good sense for better service that's a line that's the name of the episode
00:35:31
John Moses-Brownson
I'm all here for better service.
00:35:34
Theresa
right
00:35:36
John Moses-Brownson
So if someone listening to this is like, dogs, I'm down, I'm biting. This is delicious. And I want to eat more. How can our members, our listeners get more involved if they want to?
00:35:51
Theresa
So we have a couple of spots open in our committee um because we have a representative from each region and then we have a representative of each membership type and we have some holes.
00:36:02
Theresa
So you can absolutely sign up to be more involved in NAP and sign up to be part of the membership committee. And if you hit one of those holes that we have, we will take you um very enthusiastically.
00:36:18
Theresa
um
00:36:18
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:36:19
Theresa
The other thing people can do is just have conversations like where CAP has already had their conference, but SAP is coming up.
00:36:22
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:36:27
John Moses-Brownson
Mm-hmm.
00:36:27
Theresa
ah WAP and the app are coming up as well. Like when you're going to these conferences, if you see someone who is a patron or affiliate member or something like go have coffee, strike up a conversation, be like, Hey, tell me about what you do.
00:36:40
Theresa
Cause knowledge is power. um And we're not going to we all know this because of, you know, things that are happening in life and world, you know, they wanted to know things.
00:36:47
Zuri
Right.
00:36:48
Theresa
But like knowledge is power. And so if you have a notion about a certain membership type because your friend told you they had a bad experience, like you don't really know what you're talking about.
00:37:00
Theresa
Like go have a conversation and and see for yourself um if that notion is correct or not. um And advocate for each other. Like that's the biggest thing. We are not in a space right now where we need to be divided. You know, education is being attacked.
00:37:16
Theresa
Access, equity, those words that we're not allowed to say now, that start with D's and E's and I's, that's all under attack.
00:37:19
Zuri
Yeah.
00:37:25
Theresa
And so the very last thing that we need to be doing now is to be divided and not supporting each other. Because if an independent advisor can get someone to medical school that's like, you know what?
00:37:37
Theresa
I care about women's access to healthcare. And I'm gonna advocate for every woman to have equitable access life-saving care, regardless of what people think is or is not healthcare, that makes the world a better place.
00:37:51
Theresa
You know, if we can get someone to dental school that believes that everyone should have access to dental health so that they can have good nutrition, so they can live a healthier life, like, I don't care who talks to them.
00:38:05
Theresa
I don't care who gets them there.
00:38:05
John Moses-Brownson
Yeah.
00:38:07
Theresa
Like, they're making the world a better place. And so that's really my challenge to anyone listening to this. is like, let's just work together to make the world a better place. Cause we can, we do that.
00:38:19
Theresa
Like we make the world better by helping our students get there. um And they are asking the questions and they are pointing out the things that need to be fixed in this world.
00:38:31
Theresa
And whoever can get someone into a space that can do that. Like if they're an affiliate member or an independent advisor or an advisor at a university, like Godspeed.
00:38:42
Zuri
Right. That's it.
00:38:45
John Moses-Brownson
the more you know.
00:38:46
Zuri
Love it.
00:38:47
Theresa
The more you know.
00:38:47
John Moses-Brownson
all right.
Closing Remarks on Inclusivity and Justice
00:38:48
John Moses-Brownson
Teresa, thank you so much for your time today. i want to thank my peers on the Committee for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, Taya, Tani, and Zuri. Thank you so much for always being here, putting in the good work to share the messages of how we do what we do and how we try to do it better for more people.
00:39:07
John Moses-Brownson
We want to thank everyone across the membership for tuning in to another episode of The Lunch Hour. And please, Please keep striving for a more inclusive and just health professions community.
00:39:19
John Moses-Brownson
Until next time.
00:39:26
Theresa
Thank