Kevin Stuart Swain, songwriter, engineer, producer, vocalist, guitarist, bassist

Transcript

Speaker: Hi it's Dan here for Dusty Geeks Radio and this is the podcast. Line our notes revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers.

Speaker: Today I'm very honored to have my special guest, my friend, songwriter, engineer, producer, vocalist, guitarist, and bassist, Kevin Stewart Swain, who has worked with the likes of Bronnie Bentall, Adelize, Al Harlow, Thor, and many more. And we'll be talking about his many musical adventures, and we'll get some insights into the Canadian music scene from someone who's been a part of it for many decades. So thanks for joining me today, Kevin. How are you? I'm just terrific. I actually played recorder in elementary school, too.

Speaker: There you go. We forgot that in the intro. Well, good. Well, I'm glad to have you on. I appreciate it because we've been friends for a long time. We've known each other and I wanted to get you on the podcast and I've had lots of people on that that you've worked with. So I'm looking forward to talking about that as well. So, but starting at the beginning, you were born in England. You were. Yes. And you came over here very young, I'm assuming.

Speaker: Yeah, I was born just north of Liverpool, funny enough, like in 62. I mean, that's how old I am. I was kind of around where, I don't know if I got anything out of that, but yeah, I came over here in 65. Okay. So you were a young guy and you come to Canada and then what was your musical influence? Like, how did you get into music? You just decide one day that it was a cool thing to do. Did you get some formal training?

Speaker: I did, but you know what it really was? Because I had a strong English accent still when I started school and I kind of got into the unpopular mode, like getting kitted around.

Speaker: and all that stuff. So I didn't really have much of a group and we moved a lot. So by the time I was about 14, I was thinking, okay, I hate this. What am I going to do with the rest of my life? I'm going to do something. And I kind of as an intellectual decision eventually decided

Speaker: that I was going to be a musician. I picked up a little classical guitar and a fellow came up to me and he was telling me about a, I was a North fan at the time and North fan was kind of a hotbed then. And one of the bands, you might remember a guy named Joe Staples. He had a band called Midnight City. So they needed a bass player in two weeks. And I thought, well, to heck with it, I'll forget about this acoustic guitar. It's too small anyway. And I'll get a bass and I'll join Joe's band in two weeks. And, you know, of course that never happened. But I did end up playing with Joe and stuff.

Speaker: But I actually kind of decided to be a bass player before I could play a bass and just kind of went out there and figured it out. Ended up in Barney Bento pretty quick. I've always respected you for that because you play guitar and you play bass and you're one of those guys that does both well and is okay to do either, which is great. That's been good for you over the years and helped. You've played in lots of bands because of it as well.

Speaker: Yeah, and it's usually been bass. I didn't really get into guitar until later. I just dropped that idea and just got right into bass and then started fiddling around with guitar. Now it's getting to the point where people are calling me as a guitar player, which is interesting. That's good. That's what I often ask my guests. Did you have a defining moment or how much it was planned or how much it was just an accident?

Speaker: and it sounds like you had a bit of a plan that you wanted to be a musician and you set out on that path.

Speaker: Yeah, I definitely had a plan. I mean, I was, I was still carrying the residual of the, the school thing being, you know, not popular and stuff. So I kind of wasn't a great team player. You know, I, there's the old saying is I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member. I was kind of in that thing at that point. So I jumped around a lot and there might be some hard feelings about that. And I mean, I mean, it hurt me more than them. I, if I could have stayed in my first band and still been in Barney Bentall, but, uh, but it's been a great journey, you know,

Speaker: Well, I mean, you and I are probably similar in that regard that I've always wanted to forge my own path. And some people, they read that the wrong way, but you got to follow your path, man. I mean, what other path are you going to follow? Are you going to be a side guy in somebody else's path? No, I mean, it's an interesting gig. Like you watch movies like Hired Gun, and I know a lot of guys that are those guys. And they're great players and they really dedicated to their art.

Speaker: But yeah, I guess I'm getting that way a lot more. I'm a bit of both. I can be a sideman and I can be a leader and I can definitely not confuse the two roles. So I have more empathy when someone's the leader. I'm not going, oh, you should pay me more and you should do this and that because I know what it's like. I think it helps.

Speaker: That's a good point, and I'm the same way. I can be a great sort of guy if you say, tell me what you need, I'll do it. But that's part of my path at that point, and then I'm back on my own path. Again, I respect you for that, and I know that you've been through lots of different situations and trying to find your path, and I just was never going to give my life over to being

Speaker: a side guy for somebody else. I'll do it when it comes up. But we did the legend shows, as you know, for many years. And I was great that way. I would often say, well, I don't need to be in charge, but somebody does need to be in charge. Yeah. Yeah. That seems to be it. You're sitting there going, I would love to lay back here, but I can't help but interfere because I don't want to, you know, the bus is about to go over a cliff, you know?

Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Well, so when I was checking your timelines out, I mean, so you really excelled quickly. I mean, you were in Brandon Wolf, which moved into Barney Bento, but you were a kid, right? You were 16, 17? Totally. Well, the neatest thing was I walked into my high school stage band. I'd been playing for about six months, just self -taught, and I told them I could read music, and I snuck into the stage band.

Speaker: And unbeknownst to me, this was the best, going to be the best stage band in Canada Junior. So I was only six, eight months playing and we were in Toronto and we won. You know, we opened for Mo Kaufman in front of 1 ,500 people and Hank Goodhearty was an adjudicator. So it started

Speaker: You know, my life changed real quick. All of a sudden at a social group, I had friends, I was immersed in music and I was actually playing, you know, serious shows. We're in CBC and all that. So, and then I decided to leave school. I'd always wanted just to get out of school. So I finished, you know, grade 10 and I joined Barney Bentall. And I just kept going. I'm still doing it.

Speaker: Yeah. Well, there you go. No, that's super cool. And of course you had the feel for it too. I mean, a lot of guys wanted to be, I can't count how many friends I know that really, really, really wanted to be a musician, but it just, they didn't have it in the soul and the heart kind of thing. And so it just fell away, but you were one of those guys that just sort of.

Speaker: had this natural affinity and just went into it and it kind of worked out. But you weren't in Brandon Wolf for very long, right? That was a bit of a short note saying what happened with that. Well, this is a story of me. I was first in a band called Dirty Diamond Coal Company that was the invasion and I was really into that. But there was a conflict of me trying to be in two bands. At that point, I was in both. So I decided to make my commitment to Barney

Speaker: And i'd lied about my age too so we're getting fired everywhere cuz i was sixteen and they're waiting for my eighteenth birthday so we could go to alberta at least and play and cuz that's where barney was from and not born but that's where you come from that's where the band was based on it right with calgary.

Speaker: Well, that's where the construction company is. It was Bran and Wolf. It was Barney and a guy named Gary Fraser who he wrote as Robert Arrow. He's a huge part that you don't hear in the Barney story, but it's the two of them. They brought their construction company ethics. North Van and we'd rehearse 9 to 5 Monday through Friday and stuff. They came from Calgary anyway. So how you got into Barney Bento? How you got into Bran and Wolf? It didn't last that long.

Speaker: No, I did like a year or something and then I'd actually left and they had the record coming up, the first record that we did at Little Mountain and cool it, 16, 17 years old or whatever it was, they said, will you do the album before you go? So there was already a new bass player, you might know him as Brad, I can't remember his last name. Right, Kilburn, right?

Speaker: Brad Kilburn. So he's waiting in the wings, must have been crummy for him. And I did the session and we had a record and it did really well. It got him a deal with A &M and Paul Rudolph from Hawkwind, the guy that replaced Lemmy and Hawkwind was the producer. And

Speaker: you know, we're in a little mountain, but yeah, so I think I did about a year with that. Yeah, and you co -wrote the Blonde on Blonde song. Yeah, which on the independent record, it has my name on the A &M record, it doesn't, so I'm uncredited on the A &M record. Oh, really? Yeah. Why are they saying that? It was my own fault. I was a dumb kid and I got papers in the mail to sign, you know, to go with So Can and everything, and

Speaker: I just was so scattered. I never even filled the papers in. On my side, I didn't do the due diligence and I think they just did some, I don't know what they did, but if it ever came down to it, yeah, I co -wrote that song. Yes. Well, there you go. Well, the thing is, it's funny because when you look back, of course, we're similar age and you look back and the timelines just seem so short. Everybody was switching around and musical chairs and you're doing this and for a short period of time,

Speaker: And it seems so short now looking back. Yeah. And I mean, I don't have a good read. The only reason I left was actually, you know, I got that kind of wrong. When I left, I was doing the invasion and I was doing Barney Bento and we had really strong management and direction in the invasion. And I think that bank could have been really huge.

Speaker: And the manager was saying at that point, like on a loyalty level, like, you know, these days, everybody plays for everybody. In those days, it was almost kind of weird, you know, especially if you got two bands that are really going for it and you're just jumping in between. So that actually was why when I think about it was to make a commitment to the invasion.

Speaker: Right. Okay. Which kind of makes sense, but I mean, boy, there was a lot of short -lived bands and a lot of switching of players around back then. When you look at the different members of the different bands that you're well aware of.

Speaker: Yeah, and we didn't get along. I mean, not Barney Bentall in particular, but none of us had any social skills. I'd never even been in a romantic relationship really for a long time at that point. So I didn't know and I blame everybody else for my own, I was carrying all this stuff. And I always also thought the ticket was just a phone call away. So I kept just auditioning and getting gigs and taking the gigs.

Speaker: jumping, jumping, jumping. I remember at Casey Boyle one time at Feldman, I'm in the office looking through the book and he's going, oh, are you looking for a band again? I said, yeah. He goes, could you just let me know what band you're going to be in for the next five minutes just so I can write it down. And I knew it was a joke, but I also knew when they start joking like that, it's not just a joke. You better be careful, you know.

Speaker: Well, I guess, I mean, there's two sides to that too. If you're trying to find your own path, you're not going to stay on what you think is the wrong path for very long. That's one of the elements of that. If this doesn't feel right. You want to have the confidence and actual ability. I've dealt with guys in bands too that are just band records because they want, want, want, but they have no way of achieving it. What are you going to actually do? If I give you the key to the band, are you going to be able to drive it?

Speaker: At that point, I had no... I could bitch, but I couldn't do it on my own. It took a long time before I could put my own band together. Yeah, and of course, you're barely 20 years old at that point, right? Yeah, and scattered. But then, so after that, you ended up getting into some other bands, but you were in one track, which was a very well -known A -list band around Vancouver, right? You joined them in the early 80s, was that?

Speaker: Yeah, actually before that too, just before that, I joined Idolize and I was playing with them and that happened before, although Idolize broke after. So I did Idolize, co -wrote some songs, joined one track and then funny, I was on the road in Edmonton and I walked past a record store and I see Tad's picture.

Speaker: on an album and a what? And idolize, okay, now they've got a deal. And I was just really starting to lose my mind because everything I touched was turning to gold, but I'd walk away from it. So I walked away from it too. Well, I wasn't sure about the timelines there, actually. I thought one track was before that, but thanks for correcting that because I know that you co -wrote Sandra, which was a hit for the modest hit, but a hit for idolize. And then how did you hook up with Tad Campbell?

Speaker: All these things, it's this simple. I don't know if it's this simple now, but I joined Barney because Iron Music had an ad on the billboard and I would just fearlessly take numbers and phone. I didn't care. They go, how old are you? I'd try out for everybody. So I got him through that. I found Idolize. I think Tad had a thing in the buy and sell.

Speaker: And one track was the Feldman book and Georgia Strait was also really good. So I was always mining but I was always the grass is always greener. I'm in a band, I'm looking around because I thought instead of doing all the hard work of getting myself together and being strong, I just thought the easy way was to jump into the right thing and then have them do all the work sort of things.

Speaker: Well, I mean, and again, there's two sides to that because you're trying to find the right combination where you get something that's successful and you feel comfortable in it. Because I've talked to lots of people who said, well, yeah, we had a lot of success, but I wasn't happy in the band. Or I needed to switch around to find the right combination, right? Which a lot of bands have tweaked their combination to get the right one.

Speaker: Yeah, that's true. A lot of it's inside too. My biggest beef was drummers not being good enough. One of the reasons I was really hard on drummers is because I wasn't really playing as tight as I thought I was yet and I was blaming them.

Speaker: In my older age here, I wish I could take it back to those days because I'm a lot less demanding on other people and a lot more confident that if it's not right, I can probably fix it. I just read that book on the turtles and Mark, the guy that was the second guy in the turtles, the backup singer,

Speaker: and how they stayed together for so long and it's not because they were the perfect fit or they didn't have beefs actually Howard the singer said we just didn't hang out that much and I have a reputation for that and bands too is a lot of times I'll get there and leave on my own and I'll just disappear and I'll have friends in the town and I don't

Speaker: a lot of times get super deeply friendship social with the guys I'm playing with. And to some degree, I think that helps because you don't burn out the relationship. And now that we're not on the road, like One Track was playing seven nights a week when the Sunday opening started. I mean, you're just together so much that

Speaker: Yeah, I guess you get real. Well, you make a good point too, because you can have a compatibility musically, but not be best buddies. And I play with people like that myself. They're not people I would see socially or hang out with. We don't really see things that similar, but we're good business partners and we were successful together in that respect.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And if you're on stage and it's cooking and you're making that magic, I've talked to someone the other day that's saying, how bad is it really? Would we put up with anything? If you come and you can really lay it down and play, maybe non -musicians don't understand this, but I was asking a friend of mine who I won't say because of the topic here, but

Speaker: do you ever, could you find that you might not like a person because they weren't delivering musically? Like, is it that bad that you actually kind of, it actually taints your feeling for the person? And we kind of, we went, you know what, I think it's true. It's sad, but true. It's really hard to like a guy that's kind of sucking on his instrument. Well, fair enough. And then that's not going to be compatible for any length of time anyways, right? You're eventually going to... No, not musically, no. No.

Speaker: But, um, but you make an interesting, interesting point because when I studied counseling, one of the things that I learned from that was always check yourself first, no matter what situation you're in or what's going wrong or how you want to deal with it. Check yourself first. Am I reading this correctly? Am I responding correctly? And I wish I had known that earlier as well. I would have handled things a little bit differently had I looked inward and looked in the mirror first and then acted out of that understanding.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know how together you were as a young guy, but I mean, I was just a mess. Mentally, I was just a mess. Like, I couldn't like myself, let alone anybody else. But yeah, counseling and stuff like that, there's so much wisdom and so much I've learned from those kind of gems. Yeah, I found that. I mean, for me, I guess it was. I was the older brother type, so I was going to be the guy in charge and I was really aggressive.

Speaker: And I was overly aggressive and I did, I have to give credit to our former drummer Ian who taught me a few things, but he taught me that it's okay to be intense and stuff, but make sure your intensity is well placed or make sure that you're not making the situation worse rather than better by being intense about it, right? He kind of mirrored that to me and I did learn that lesson. So that was my main problem.

Speaker: I don't want to say. I'm just overbearing. I just wanted to be in charge. I wasn't going to let someone else be in charge. It worked for me in some ways, but against me in other ways. I wish I could have learned that earlier. By the way, I'm really enjoying your album.

Speaker: I appreciate that. We've been listening to it. Good. Well, I appreciate that. I wanted to do a serious effort with Mike Fraser and stuff and I do appreciate you giving me some feedback and having listened to it and stuff because I respect your opinion and I respect you as a person as well. That's a double for me. Thank you for that.

Speaker: Yeah, well, you know your song I love this life It's just uh, i'm in a point right now where i've never loved my life more and so the song is almost a theme to To you know the the awakening the the last six months of just being Just loving everything. So yeah, it's kind of my my theme song right now

Speaker: That's good to hear because that song, like the true singer -songwriter, you write songs that are sort of the storybook of your life. And for me, that was about me. It's sort of like listening to this old guitar by John Denver. That's the story of his life, and it kind of reflected on me. And then my song, I Love This Life, is sort of my storybook. And I guess people can relate to it, and it sounds like you did, so I appreciate that.

Speaker: Well, cool. So, so you got into idolize and you were, you were doing great with that. And then, um, I was going to ask you about idolize cause cause Ted Campbell, he was a club guy and we've talked about this before, but very few of the club guys ever got any sort of recording success, right? Feldman had the circuit and everyone did their thing and made some good money at the time, but very few of them emerged from there into the recording world. And Tad was one of those guys that was able to do that.

Speaker: Yeah, well, he walks to the beat of a different drummer, that guy. Like, I mean, when I met him, he was a semi -pro hockey player with the Trail Blazers. And like a lot of guys he played with went into the NHL, so he was total hockey. And he kind of had that vibe, but he loved music. So our time, we weren't rallying the success. Like, first off, I joined him, we had a duo. It wasn't even idolized yet.

Speaker: And that's where we wrote a bunch of songs and we went around. But we got fired all the time for me being so young and we weren't that good. So I had a lot of firing in the Barney idolized days. A lot. And then he went to Australia and he formed Idolize with a chambermaid. He met at a hotel on the

Speaker: whatever coast that is. He came back and he has this idolized concept and he asked me to come back again. So we went, we started touring and stuff and they were already playing songs I'd written. The early shows we did, we actually recall the stolen lords in the beginning and it was more my original than his. So he was inspired or whatever, but he was writing more. But we actually did more of my songs in the beginning and then when I came back, they're actually out there touring in bar bands.

Speaker: playing songs I wrote, which was crazy. They're doing Crazy For Your Love, which never came out until I recorded it with Sparkling Apple album I produced. So we weren't big. And here's a really good tidbit. Tattle hate me telling this story. And it's nothing, it was fair, it was like Brothers or whatever, but we were in Pinscher Creek and it was getting tenser and

Speaker: with us and everything and we had a full full house and they're calling for on course we done a couple and i was getting savvy i'd actually played for awhile by them probably more than him the club owners shaking his hands going get off the stage so these people just you know you being green horns like they just don't wanna go home

Speaker: they don't love you. The longer you play, the more the bar is going to stay open. So I got the signal. I relayed it to Tad. He's looking mad. He would go from zero to a hundred in those days, the hockey kind of thing. And it was mama letting him play that he wanted to play. And he was our only guitar player at that point. He wasn't at that level. And I didn't want to butcher that song and pull into the bottom of the barrel. So I go over to him and I said, so we're not yelling because the place is full. There's no one on the dance floor. They're all staring at the band.

Speaker: So I go over to talk to him and he just nails me. He just starts fighting like a hockey game. So we're in the dance floor in Pinscher Creek and punches are throwing and our drummer who was from New Zealand was a bouncer by career. So he pulled us apart and we drove from Pinscher Creek, Alberta all the way to Trail and didn't even speak a word to each other.

Speaker: But within three weeks, we were hanging out again and I actually got offered to go on the human league tour. But at that point, I had to audition because it wasn't even TADS. It was TADS and it wasn't TADS. Like at that point, everything had to be done a certain way. So

Speaker: The audition, I felt like everything in the universe got in the way that day and it just wasn't going to happen. It didn't happen. I couldn't make the audition, I didn't get to it. The drummer told me later, he saw me, I was in a band called Rage at Club Soda and he said, you know, you would have nailed that gig, you're exactly what we needed. But then that tour fell apart. They were in the middle of South Carolina or something, the record company pulled the plug.

Speaker: That's why Sandra wasn't really all that big because it was on the radio and then the record company said, we're just orphaning you through different reasons. So it just floated away. But that could have been a big song. Well, good. Well, thanks for saying that because I was going to ask you that.

Speaker: these things have a shelf life and they come and they make their sort of rise and then they crest and then they go away and sometimes there's various reasons for that so so thanks for yeah yeah i mean it was a very well received song that's like mike beinhorn that produced super unknown for and herbie hancock and stuff produce that um very cool so sound guard and all that and then mike frazer was the assistant engineer on that with bob rock so there you go yeah mike there's some big names

Speaker: But at that point, it was like fire all the jets or cut it. And for some reason, the label just

Speaker: just cut him mercilessly. Like, I mean, right on the road, no more tourist support, nothing you're done. And I don't think it was about lack of success. I think it was, again, a conflict of personalities. Okay. Because I wondered about that because he sort of dropped off the map too, because he had Tokyo Road was big and then all of a sudden he just disappeared. So why was that? Just gave up on the base.

Speaker: He had enough of a momentum, so when they dropped it, he still did another album and it charted quite well with Blue Train and everything. He was out touring and it just slowly fizzled away. Tad's just a different guy. He's not a guy that wants to participate in the regular world. He would much rather live

Speaker: check to check and just have incredible freedom. He's a nomad. He likes to travel. He's a great guy. He's one of the most unique people I've ever met. And he just says this way. So right now, he's somewhere just doing the nomad life.

Speaker: Yeah, the reason I asked that because normally you want to get some modicum of success and you get to a certain level and then you take that as a springboard and you go further and other guys just kind of go away. And he's one of the guys that just kind of, he didn't use the success he had as a springboard, he just kind of went away.

Speaker: Yeah. And he got it easy too. Like he's, he's such a personable guy. He's such an incredible person. And he, um, he actually just found Lou Blair out in his driveway, washing his car and he walked up to him and did the classic, here's my cassette tape. That's how he got the deal. I mean, most of us would talk ourselves out and we can't do that, you know, but he, it wouldn't occur to him. He is such a people person. Like I've seen him just get to know people so fast, you know, he's, he's really,

Speaker: One of my favorite people. It's a nice, it's a nice skill to have. I don't have that myself, but I appreciate it in other people. And some people are just like that. So then you got to say that went away and then you were in one track for a little while. And then you, you played in some other club bands and you played in sparkling apple for a while. For those who don't know, for our listeners across Canada, sparkling apple was one of the top bands on the west coast during the late seventies and into the eighties and did very well. And you ended up playing with them for a little bit.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, that's one that's lasted because I joined them in the early 90s and I've never officially left and the band's never officially ended. So once in a while, we play. And they were an original band that played bars. I mean, they always had records out. They had a label and stuff. So I mean, the last thing I really did of note with them was that I went

Speaker: Where's your tapes? And I found the Masters, worked with Ray Roper and we were able to save all the Masters to digital. And then I wrote two new songs and I produced a sparkling Apple record for them. That was so great because of course I know Colin and Art fairly well.

Speaker: Yeah, they're good guys. They're good guys. They were around the whole time. Like when I was doing Barney Bento and stuff, they were in the same clubs because those guys could play like rock top 40 bars and original bars because they were just sitting in the middle there and they just managed to be able to do anything. They called it drunk rock. It was a big party.

Speaker: That's right. Yeah. Well, they were real personalities too. And then super loud and heavy. I saw them lots of times. Well, cool. And then so you got together with Al Harlow too. You did a bunch of stuff with him. I guess did you guys just make friends as friends first or did you, how did you end up playing with Al? I was friends with Frank Sota and Frank was having a benefit because he was ill and there was a benefit for his recovery.

Speaker: And so Thor was there too, funny, and I didn't know Thor yet. But I was sitting with Ray Roper making the Sparkling Apple record, and he got this email from Al, and Al was telling him what songs they were going to do. And I said, Ray, who's the bass player? He says, I don't know. And I said, okay, well, I'm going to write down those songs.

Speaker: I went home, I learned them, and when Al came in, I just said, ''Hey, Al, I'm Kevin. I know your songs for bass if you need a hand.'' He goes, ''Right on, you're the bass player.'' We've been friends ever since. Then I talked to him because we got to be friends. Right now, I don't think of him as Al Harlow from prison anymore. He's probably my best friend right now. Well, he's just a first -class guy.

Speaker: He is. And we've gone deep. We've gone deep through the pandemic and stuff. We've spent hours on the phone together. He's wonderful. But I understood that he had a certain... People talk about Prism and they go... He came in like six minutes, six months after it started and he was there when they were doing the first album. But there's this thing about, oh, there's no original members. He's been through a lot of crap with that.

Speaker: And he was talking about his originals and how he was a solo artist before. And I said, do you want to make a solo record? And I said, all you have to say is yes, because I can do all the rest. And so he said yes. And so we went on to look at

Speaker: seven -year journey. We laid down the first note to when we put an album out, so I obviously got to know him. You talk about people not getting along. In seven years, there was maybe the tensest part or whatever, but it was never tense enough that it would ever threaten

Speaker: friendship or anything right now we're just going like what do we want to do we love music dreams my dreams didn't really come true as much as this does but my dreams have come true and i just love music and it's down to nothing i'm not chasing girls i'm not trying to buy a mansion i just.

Speaker: Want to write music make it sound good and have people hear it. And so, you know, yeah Well, that's that's one thing that age gets you to I often say to people now I just want to deal with my friends. Okay, just treat me like a friend. That's all I care about it Like I'm not interested in the sharks and the barracudas I've I don't have anything left to prove just be my friend and we'll work together and it'll be good and I was very much on that page as well I think

Speaker: What a tremendous guy. Because he was in Seeds of Time too, right? He was, yeah. And then he joined Prism after the first album. So I guess that's the rub. He wasn't on the first album, right? But he was on NBC Forever Eyes and Armageddon. Yeah, Sea Forever Eyes. I mean, he saved that album because Rodney Higgs, it was Jim Valance, quit.

Speaker: So they're on the second album and the guy that's basically the heart, the everything, like everything that kind of happened for Prism was Jim Valance. And so they still had, I think, one or two songs left over from him, but Al wrote, he had like three hits on that album or something, so he came in strong. And, you know, he's a really cool writer. He's actually just a really cool person. He's been a professor. I won't talk too much because if you ever have him on his story, it's amazing. I've had him on, yeah. I did have Al on and had Jim Valance on as well.

Speaker: Oh, great. Great. Well, he's not getting nervous. Yeah. Well, though I've talked to these guys and it's been great, you know, but I mean, we're all just people. And especially when you're talking about those days, you're just young guys just trying to make something out of yourself. You know, I talked to a guy last night that managed the churros and stuff. And he said, all the guys at Gordon Lightfoot and Ian and Sylvia and all those people that were, they were just young people trying to make something out of themselves. So, you know, I guess you get, you can get a little puffed up afterwards, but if you're just a normal person that

Speaker: that's all you are. And you may have had a few songs that did well, but you're just a guy that did so. That's the way it is. And the coolest thing for me is, I remember a kid, my first girlfriend listened to the radio and I've played with a whole bunch of people that I used to listen to on the radio. And every time I just kind of pinched myself, I heard about Jerry Doucette, God rest.

Speaker: Yeah, Jerry. He was apparently a real tough guy to get along with and drinking and everything. I played with him for a while and he was like my big brother. He was the nicest guy in the world. He actually kind of reminds me of John. I get along with guys like that really good. I got to play with Jim Burns for a show. Yeah, cool.

Speaker: and Stonewall was on the radio in those days. I got to play with Ray. I've played with Stonewall a lot. It's been a great time. The thing with Jerry too, who I knew reasonably well, but he was a soft -hearted guy. He just had an issue with the drugs and booze for too long, but I was a huge fan and I thought he was great too.

Speaker: But yeah, so you played with Al, but you also did some Prism dates. I saw there's a couple of videos where you're playing with Prism and then you did My Mind Is Running Away With You. I think that was the first single that you released off that album you did with Al. Is that right? Yeah, that's the one I wrote and I got quite involved in that one. Yeah, I played Prism dates. I mean, the sort of thing right now, that's a fella named Tad Goddard's gig. He's had it forever. But we're really good with each other. It's just if he ever gets in a situation or anything, I'm sort of first call.

Speaker: I can jump in and out of prison. I can't remember all the dates we've done, but we've done a few and it's been great. Well, that's great. And then of course, you know, Al's original stuff and then the stone bolt, because of your connection with Ray Roper, you did some stone bolt dates as well.

Speaker: Did Stonebolt. I've had Ray and Al's band. We've all kind of worked together. I think Ray's actually all over, not all over, but he's on that Al Harlow album for backups and stuff. I did Stonebolt and a bunch of those. I mean, I think what I was telling in the early days when we got fired a lot, I kind of went for the security and paycheck at top 40 for kind of too long.

Speaker: But then again, it really honed my playing. And then I started, you know, so there's a sort of like an early part of like what could have been really successful years of bar bands and then getting back into the recording acts again, which is where my heart's at.

Speaker: Yeah, and you're, I don't want to say you're a hired gun, but you're a bit of a mercenary in the sense that you're sure I'll do that. You know, I'll do this. Sure. Let's, let's try that. Cause you played with some of the tribute bands. Like you played with Barracuda for a while, the heart tribute thing. You played a couple of shows or a few shows with the ABBA and the dreams that the Fleetwood Mac one too, right? If I'm not mistaken. Yeah.

Speaker: No, those guys are great, too. And the thing about Barracuda was Roger Fisher from Heart was to endorse the band. So I got to play a lot of shows playing Heart songs with Roger Fisher. Yeah, which is great. It's still a tribute. It's a tribute, but it isn't. You know, you're down in Portland and stuff and meeting people. Like, I met a lot of people through him. He's a good guy, too. So that's cool. And then you did some Lee Aaron dates, too. How did that come about?

Speaker: Um, she just phoned me and I don't know. I mean, like John Cody, her husband is a drummer is, uh, like probably Al's best friend I'd say, but I'm competing for that spot. But John, John's the drummer. I don't know what I, you know, Oh, I know what it was. I know what it was. I was playing with Ray Roper and we were doing a big, another, some sort of benefit or something. And I was kind of pinch hitting for a lot of bands. So I played.

Speaker: I was Lee Aaron's bass player that day and I met her side stage and said, hi, I'm your bass player for the evening kind of thing. Like we hadn't rehearsed or anything and we had some mutual friends and she kind of, she felt, I could tell she felt alone on the stage because

Speaker: She knew everybody, but her band wasn't there. There was something happened in an arrangement and I said something and I could see that I'd gained her confidence. We hit it off real well for that first show and then she called me a while later and said, can you fill in for a couple of shows? Because ironically, their bass player is in Barney Benton. He got double booked and I went and did some shows with her.

Speaker: Yeah, it was a great experience. I don't know if there was... Did you know many of her songs or did you have to do some woodshedding? That was a hard one. That was like four months because she came out of like she went into jazz for a while and so they were still doing one of her jazz songs and had a bass solo on it and Dave wasn't playing it and I went, okay, I really want to come in here and really hold this gig. So I like learned the bass solo for the jazz song and her material

Speaker: I'd almost say, I don't know who was producing the early stuff, but it's almost overly complicated, not for a reason. Like it's too busy, I guess. I mean, I love her songs and stuff, but when you're working in on some of the more album cuts, it's a lot of moving parts. So I practiced that show for a long time. Same with Stonewall, like almost bordering on jazz rock when you get into the album cuts.

Speaker: Right, yeah, but it's good. I mean, I watch the videos and you're playing it great and you're playing confidently and you make a good point too about giving a strong band gives a singer confidence. It's just a fact of life and it's really good.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. It must be scary. I mean, I can't imagine what it was like for Karen. I guess her name's Karen, but Lee Aaron to be able to, you know, just to jump in like that and have nobody, you know, I mean, I mean, I'm sure she's known Frank forever. Frank Sota, he was on the stage that night. I was like Rick Fettick, Ray Roper, Frank Sota, me, and Mark Gladstone from Prism. It's an all -star band. We just banged it out.

Speaker: Yeah. Cool. Well, Frank too, like I had Frank on the, you know, known Frank for many years. He moved out here from Toronto, but, uh, I had him on as well, but he's a great guitar player. Like I didn't actually realize.

Speaker: how good he is as a guitar player until I went, listened to his back catalog and talked to him about it. He's super. So we just did a song. It was really cool. I was in Vancouver and we'd submitted the last Thor album, so it was already at the label. And I'm playing a gig with a band I play in. And John phones and he goes, I got this idea for a song and I'd really like to get it on the album. It's been delivered. And I said,

Speaker: Okay, I'm in town until Monday and he said, want to go in the studio Monday? I said, let's just do it tomorrow. Let me get on the phone. I knew some people. So I got someone bumped out of session. I got a room and we go in and he's just sang on our, which we do a lot, but he sang a melody on my phone.

Speaker: And we came in Frank Sota and Mike Root this time me and we just on the floor there wrote a song and by you know, six hours later we track the song and I stayed later to do stuff but but Frank's the guitar player and

Speaker: he was sending me some extra tracks later because I'm trying to beef the song up and he plays this style with his fingers like he doesn't pick so much. He's got finger picks and he really gets in there. So these days we do a lot of guitar emulation where it's just a direct guitar and then you can put any amp you want on it and I've done lots of albums. Yeah, so I do that all the time, right?

Speaker: And I'm going, okay, there's only so much you can do. You got the box, you got your guitar. But with his way of playing, the sounds he got out of simulators that I've used before are out of this world. And there's about five seconds at the end when he's doing this guitar lick, Brian McLeod comes back. I mean, he comes right through him. Like there's a couple notes there I'm going, I've never, and I play with Anthony from the Headpins, who obviously is covering Brian's stuff.

Speaker: But for a couple seconds there, Frank, it's just like, Oh, I got chills. Like I just heard Brian, you know, and I don't know what to do with the way he digs in or what. Wow. Yeah. And so, but that, that leads to the idea to Thor as well. You've been playing with him live and you've been producing him and writing and promoting him. And you've got a new release out now, right off the iron horse. Yeah. And so you've been really immersed in that, right? That's been, that's kind of your baby now.

Speaker: Yeah, five albums now in 12 years. So I'm not exactly joining bands all the time. I mean, 12 years, it's kind of slow. Like I headline Metal Fest and Armstrong with him 12 years ago. And then I did a video for him, which I don't do, but this is another thing about the biz and I'm sure you've been talking about it. You become the Renaissance man, Jack of all trades. And I mean,

Speaker: I'm a video editor now. But I've made like half a dozen videos now. So first thing is he asked me to do a video. And with John, I think this is why our relationship works. He'll just go, I need you to do this. Or can you do this? Or will you do this? And he'll just go to the next guy. So I just always say yes. And I'm down to like, we did a movie. He goes, I need to shoot the movie. Pack a vengeance is called, right? Yeah.

Speaker: So all of a sudden I'm a producer and a gun prop technician at a time when that can go horribly wrong. Yes, there you go. But yeah, so I always just say yes to him and he likes to do stuff fast. And in some ways it probably hurts me because, you know, some of this stuff, we bang it off real quick and people are kind of, you know, what kind of producer are you? It sounds like a demo. My thing is just, you know what? It's presented itself. Another guy just loved John.

Speaker: I'm embracing the way he works and I'm trying to get better at doing it fast. I've done a lot of remix. If you'll notice a lot of songs on the album, there'll be a remix floating around. These days, you have to put an album in six months before it comes out if you're going to go vinyl because you got to get the vinyl made and there's a six -month delay. I think it's still going on. You're just racing to get this. I finished this album just

Speaker: in, God, I don't know, September or something, but it's coming out on March 16th. Well, okay. And I did a remix on that one too, so the video will have actually a better version of the song for the next single. Nice. And then was there, you talked about the 50th anniversary show at the Whisky A Go -Go, is that? Yeah. That's great. So you're going down to LA and he's going to do the 50th anniversary show at the Whisky? Yeah.

Speaker: Wow. Yeah. And it'll be the record reps and a lot of cool people from over the years. There's a DJ that's super, super good friend of mine, Eric Jackson, Luria out of Pittsburgh. He's just been a godsend and a great friend to me and to Thor. We met through Thor. So he's coming out. So I get to hang out with him. He's going to be the MC. Nice. Oh, that's a great story. We're playing Canada too, you know. Nice. Yeah. You got some dates coming up. You got Ebb and 10 Calgary.

Speaker: Yeah. And Calgary is my new hometown. I moved. Yes. He moved from Vancouver to Calgary. That's right. Yeah. In August. And I don't really know anyone. I haven't played any shows because I've been a total recluse. Like I spent all the time moving, you know, just getting into the house and it was

Speaker: pretty much like the day that I could actually consider this where John goes, he basically wanted to write and record four songs in two weeks and find a bunch of unreleased stuff that would be bonus on side B for me to put an album together in like two weeks. So I just was at the point where I could go, okay, I'm just going to do nothing but sleep and record.

Speaker: and we banged off. We'd recorded a single in Vancouver. Even then, I'd moved, I'd left my house and I was in between, but I managed to put a studio together and record a single and mix it and everything in a spare room. We had two songs and then he wanted to go for a full album. Now that I know John, I'm with him, it's like,

Speaker: Yeah, you know what? Sure we can. But he'd send phone messages and I'd tape the phone message and he's got great time and actually great pitch, funny enough. So he's in A440 without a guitar reference or anything. He's in the right key. He's got a nice tempo. So I just, I would take his vocal and I'd build a session and I'd build a musical thing behind it. And then I'd go, okay, we need another part. And I'd write a part and I'd send it and I'd go write something to this, you know?

Speaker: It's really fun. Yeah, no, that's that's very cool. I'm glad that's been a success for you and you can still run that out of Calgary. No problem, right? Yeah, yeah, it really doesn't matter. Yeah, that's cool. And then so let me ask you about your your band in Vancouver Crush. I saw you guys quite a few times and then that's with Scott Young, our friend, the drummer and then Anthony Delacroche who plays with the head pins and then

Speaker: I'm the singer shaun clatt the singer who's done lots of different stuff and then and then so you you did some club dates and you did some recording to you did you recorded star girl did you write that or was that an original to know that's completely scott's baby always it may have played on it but yeah he's also a part of he's been a part of everything he made the

Speaker: Al Harlow album and some of the Thor stuff with me too. Okay. And he's got a studio and Scott's quite smart actually. He's quite a smart studio guy. He knows a lot. Yeah. And quite another Renaissance man just

Speaker: I mean, he's paycheck to paycheck. He's just out there hustling and getting it done. I'm really impressed with Scott, yeah. And I phoned him. I mean, Anthony with Crush, the first guy, the reason I started Crush is because I asked Anthony if he would do it when Anthony said yes. But you know, Scott was my go -to guy. I mean, he's a great salmon, great drummer, great businessman.

Speaker: Yeah, he understood the concept which was foreign to most musicians I talked to it was like I got this crazy idea Let's go to a bar and give them what they're paying us to do You know, let's go in and get the girls dancing and sell some booze and play the songs that that

Speaker: that are universally accepted as dance floor packers, but let's play them with integrity like we're in that band, that we're not some hokey cover band where if Rick Springfield needs a sidemen, any of us could get in there. Let's play that good. I'm not saying we do. It was good though. I almost never go to see bands because I'm usually disappointed because it's just a bar scene and it's hacked versions of hack songs and I'm just not inspired by it. But I came and saw you guys probably half a dozen times.

Speaker: And then have you got any dates coming up? Are you going to do any more crush dates? We do, but the trouble is a plug for Anthony. He's going on the final foreigner tour with head pins. Right. And Scott has developed a CCR tribute, which has both him and Anthony in it with Mike Kelly. Right. The Bad Moon Riders. Yeah.

Speaker: So they're busy. I'm doing the Thor thing. Sean's jumping around. But we always intended for this to be a side project, an all -star band side project thing. And we ended up playing more because we're just getting a lot of demand. Me moving to Calgary has really kind of cooled that off.

Speaker: We're starting to take more corporate gigs and stuff because there's nowhere really to go with Crush as a bar band because there's only so much money and so far you can go. Well, and all those, even the places like the Union Jack and stuff. It's funny because when Ian was our drummer in March Hare for 18 years and then when he left, the first person I called was Scott, but he was too busy with other stuff. He told me. Yeah, he was the first person I thought of because I thought,

Speaker: It's not that he can't, but he generally is the leader. And Crush, technically it's my band, but it's not hard to run a band when you've got like -minded people that are sensible. That's my formula for success.

Speaker: He's a good drummer and a good businessman and a good singer. We probably wouldn't have been compatible in a band, I think.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, we really don't have a lot of issues really. And we're down to one club because there's only one club in Vancouver that can... We can't trust production when we're letting other people do it because the standard of production is just so up and down now. I can't trust someone supplying a salmon. So we do our own production. So we're only playing clubs that we do sound that has a stage and has a light show. So it's down to Donegal's and Suri, which Daniel Cook who runs that is

Speaker: again, one of my best friends, just one of the best guys that's ever been around. So we're just going to do that bar. So if you want to see Crush in a Bar, you go to that. Well, the scene is not. But we're there June 14th, by the way. June 14th. Okay. But the whole scene is not what it was. So you have to find different

Speaker: ways of making money and different ways to To find gigs and stuff. So I which I've been you know, very successful at thankfully But but the scene is not what it was so it's it's just showing you're doing it right too You've always done it right like you go out and you provide entertainment and really if there is half a dozen bands of that caliber Maybe there would be a scene but you know if you're gonna go out to the bar and

Speaker: After you've not really played much in your life, like a lot of these guys, it's sort of something they did as a hobby. Now they're full -time bands and bars playing their favorite songs, trying to get the high they got when they were in the Coliseum singing a band. So they're not playing dance songs. I'm not saying there's a lot of reasons.

Speaker: I don't know that the quality of music is really helping. I don't know what it would take, but yeah, I've noticed a real decline in Vancouver for playing. It wasn't why I left, but you know what? In a way, I kind of wish it was like that in 1979 because I wouldn't have spent so many years just looking away, playing other people's songs.

Speaker: Anyway, it is what it is and Crush is fun. I love it. Yeah, but we'll be there June 14th. We'll probably play a couple of dates in the fall, but we're only going to play once in one. Usually it's bundled with a corporate date. So like in this one, we're going to play a Friday and then we play a corporate date on the Saturdays. Okay. Well, good for you. Well, I'm happy for you guys. It's a good band.

Speaker: So I watched your reel on YouTube, you have a promo reel on there, so if people want to see it, it's Kevin Stewart Swain on YouTube, and you do a reel there. It's pretty cool, you're ripping it up on guitar pretty good, and you're singing and playing bass, and you're playing a five -string Rickenbacker there? Yeah, which is hard to find. It's from the 80s too, I didn't even know they made them then.

Speaker: Well super good to fight with the get that is so i didn't watch game of thrones or any of that that big guy.

Speaker: the big, huge guy that's in Thrones and he's in Aquaman and stuff. He actually almost bought that base. Is that Jason Momoa or whatever? That's right. I don't know if he's a history of the base, but he was really seriously going to buy that base. I came in the next day and they're telling me the story and stuff. I was driving down because I went to Long McQuaid and I said, I want one of these new Rickenbacker five strings they're coming out with.

Speaker: Scott, the manager there, he phoned me as I'm driving. He goes, you know, there's a Ricky on the wall, a five -string from like 89 or something. And I go, no way, they don't make those. And there it is. And it was horrible. It was awful. It was set up wrong. The strings were wrong. The neck is no wider than a four -string should be. But I ended up buying it, and I quite love it. I don't think I'm going to be using it on this tour or anything. But yeah, if you're in a bar band as a bass player, and you don't have a five -string,

Speaker: Yeah. It's pretty hard to cover all the, you know, all the different stuff. Well, even the drop D gets you down to D but doesn't get you the low B, right?

Speaker: No, no. I'm going to get down there. It's so low you can barely, but I usually play an octave on top so you can hear the whole thing. Okay. But you know, I've got like, I've got a, uh, alembic right now, which is really cool. And it has the, I've never had the little hip shot that just drops the D down. This is all kind of technical. But I'm kind of loving that. I think I'm going to use that one for next year. Yeah. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you about too. Cause you play, you play bass with a pick, but you also pluck.

Speaker: So you're a pick and pluck guy like a high I mean I started as I started as a finger player like when I did the Barney Bento record I probably couldn't have played a song with a pic but okay at that time it became a thing it's funny cuz all the jokes now you know about pick players which I really hate in those days.

Speaker: It was kind of a finger player was that guy and all the great players, John Dryden and, and Ab Bryant and all those guys, you know, every baseline you've ever heard on a prison records played with a pick. And so, um, I reluctantly got into it. And then as it went out of favor, for whatever reason, I went and went to hell with it. I mean, this is how I express myself. It's a, call me a hack, but I'm not.

Speaker: Well, you're not, but you don't miss the pluck too because you sort of do a hybrid because you pull strings too. So you can make it sound like, you know, you're slapping a little bit or something, right?

Speaker: Yeah. I mean, that's what, if I get a bass player in the studio, what I want is that he can, his right hand does everything the right hand can do. Like if you're left -handed bass player that you can pick and you can pluck and you can snap and you can thump, slap or whatever, you know, like you need all those colors to, to be interesting. Well, that's cool. And, and then some of your bass solos on there are really good. Actually, I was pleasantly surprised. I hadn't watched that for a long time. So I was like, Oh, that sounds really good. So it was cool. And then.

Speaker: Well, thanks. I never worked those out. It's always impromptu. Like, I think the solo on that was we were playing with Al Harlow and Scott missed the ending and I didn't want him to. So I just like we just kept like, you know, this is the thing is a green band. I just have the deer in the headlights, but you go, okay, we're going to keep going. And then we don't really know what we're going to do here. And it looks like I don't think I'd be stepping anyone's toes if I start doing a bit of a solo and then we'll kind of make it look like we meant to do that. Yeah.

Speaker: So I wanted to ask you a little bit about your influences because, you know, I know you tend to lean towards the heavier stuff and you like the retro sort of eighties heavier stuff, but you also are Beatles influenced like most of us are. So you also like the melodic, the melodies and the harmonies and all that stuff.

Speaker: Yeah. Well, you know, you know, my bass teacher was Rene Wurst from Skywalk, the jazz guy. And my first two years or whatever, you know, we're playing Count Basie charts in a band. We're jazz guys. We're rock snobs. And so that's how I started out as a good finger playing propper.

Speaker: But I remember one day I was in a record store with Rene Wurst because we'd hang out with his friend, Steven, that was quite young. He's a good guy. I saw the hard album, funny enough, with Kick It Out and Barracuda and everything on it. And I went, if I buy this in front of

Speaker: He's gonna be disappointed in me. And I think I did see that look at disappointment. But I just had such a... Another guy I met that was really cool is Derek Sivers that ran CD Baby. And I had dinner with him.

Speaker: And he would talk about aha moments. And I don't know if he used these phrases, but basically the way I translate it is, you know, if it doesn't give you goosebumps, don't try to overthink it and figure it out. It just isn't what, that's your path. It's lightening up. And Rock just excited the hell out of me. So, but I start out in jazz. Yeah. So how much of a Beatles influence did you have?

Speaker: Huge. I was born in 1962 near Liverpool. They were recording Love Me Do when I was a baby. I'm a massive Beatles fan. I've met Pete Best. I've played in the Cavern once.

Speaker: Um, any Beatles stuff is I'm nuts about. So yeah, I'm, I'm a massive Beatles fan, mostly John stuff. Like I love Paul after, but I, in, in, in the course of the Beatles, I love John just he's, he's my kind of guy. Like he's a rebel and his songs are dangerous and he's got edge and you know, but that's the cool thing about it is of course we've all had lots of different influences, but

Speaker: maybe some people who were younger don't realize the impact that a band like the Beatles had and then it translated into all other kinds of stuff too. So if you play heavier music, it's still melodic and it's still harmonies and it's still very musical because of that Beatles influence. I would attribute a lot of it to that.

Speaker: I rarely have ever heard anyone talk about their story that's our age, that Beatles aren't, almost everything started because of the Ed Sullivan show. Oh, there's another guy I met. I met Sid Bernstein who was the promoter that brought them over to do. He did Shea Stadium, he did Carnegie Hall. I talked to him in Central Park and he told me the story just one -on -one like he'd never told the story and I'm thinking,

Speaker: How many times? What a great guy. So he's telling me the whole story of how he was the guy that brought the Beatles over to America. And he also brought Rolling Stones and Abba. He's dead now, but I got to meet him. And so I've had these Beatle moments, you know, like where I'm sitting, this guy's talking about phoning Brian Epstein from New York and getting them and making the deal. Crazy. Yeah. Well, you've traveled a fair, but how much touring and playing have you done like down in the States and in Canada and you've been all over the place?

Speaker: Yeah, I have but not as much as other guys But I've played a lot of American dates and I've done a little bit of Europe and you know I mean when you get in the top 40 senior in Canada, and you know we basically go from Thunder Bay and back But yeah, I've done, you know, I've done, California. I've done Portland Oregon stuff. I can't remember. Oh, we did the East Coast. It was great. We played New York We played Brooklyn very cool Philadelphia. Yeah, we played

Speaker: Thor's got me further east than ever. My record now is I've gone as far as Quebec City, so my next goal is I've never played the Maritimes. Anyone out there needs a bass player. Good for you. So did you reach the level of success that you thought you wanted in the music business? I don't know. I mean, as a kid, I thought I was going to be a massive rock star and it's the only thing. You know what's funny? We were watching a show the other day and the reason this all happened is because of David Essex in England. And he

Speaker: had that movie that'll be the day and then he had a movie called Stardust which was not the Stardust most people know now and it was all about a fictional rise of a rock star from the beginning to the end and I saw it and I was saying to Lisa Freecrock my girl here that we were watching an English show the other day and they had references to David Essex which I said you don't know this guy but this guy is the whole reason good or bad I'm sitting here right now and uh

Speaker: So, I wanted to be a rock star and I kind of didn't care about burning out. I didn't care if I was going to be a young, not leave a legend and burn out young. And now as I'm getting older, it's like, what a ridiculous idea that was. Yeah, that's right. Looking towards 35 or 40 and then looking back on it is a bit of a different experience, I would say.

Speaker: But you found your way. I guess for me, the traveling thing, I never wanted to be a touring band. I had a home and I had my kids and my wife and I just hated. To me, I wanted to make it, whatever that means. But then I realized you're chasing a life you don't even want to live. I wouldn't live that life. The thing, the void that filled it, it's really my whole life. My relationships, my family, my spiritual

Speaker: strength, all that, like everything that I've developed in other areas. Because always as a kid, I was really searching for, on a spiritual level, like I was trying everything, you know, Buddhist, TM, and you name it, you know. I remember going to a TM meeting so young, the guy says, how old are you? I'm 13. Well, with the love that you're here, you're gonna have to ask your parents permission if you're gonna, you know,

Speaker: But I was, I had this incredible, like, I guess this, you know, 13, 14, I was like, look, I just want to know, I want all the answers. I want to know what my job is. I want to know how to fill the spiritual void. Yeah. So, so now that stuff has paid off more. Like that's the stuff that's really paying off now. Like I love my home. I love living in Calgary.

Speaker: Good for you. Every day, I just am grateful to get up another day and have this situation that I have. We just got this, funny for an interview, but we bought a four month old cat from, rescued it from a thing and we call him Franco and he is just the joy of my life. I could just sit there and watch him play all day.

Speaker: Well, the funny thing is, of course, I know you, and I know that you're a deep and reflective thinker, and I've often said that's a blessing and a curse, but it's mostly a blessing because you can overthink and you can ruminate on things and kind of take things personally too much. That's part of the downside, but the upside is you think more deeply and reflectively about things and incorporate that into your life, and that creates, I think, more meaning overall in your life.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, the meaning it can take for music in the end is that you've got to this point where it can create something that really can do something powerful to other people. And it's a gift that you can share. And it's just all around full circle. It's just kind of a beautiful thing. And it's all my friendships and everything. Because I find that as a musician, my friendships, they're always there, but they're dormant until there's a project. And then all of a sudden,

Speaker: And he just, like someone was saying to me on the day, it's like, I haven't seen you in four years. And it's funny how we just step into it. Like we don't sort of try to catch up or anything. It's just like, Oh, I saw yesterday and here we are today. Yeah. So the music's really helps for that. Well, I think it also sharing what your gift is. That's, that's part of the fulfillment and it's more than a physical thing. It's more of a spiritual thing in my mind.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's fulfilling. And I mean, all the people that are real close to me in the business, we share that, you know, in one way or the other because I can't really get close to someone. I don't find I get really close if someone's very in their head and very methodical and there's nothing, you know, this is all just a

Speaker: coincidence and when it's all going to be over. I'm not saying that couldn't be, I can't prove anything, but I'm getting a lot more than music out of my little family here. It's smaller than ever. After the pandemic, I shrunk it because I realized that a lot of people I know didn't really have my back or we didn't have love. So I've really distilled it down to some

Speaker: absolutely amazing people. Like everyone you mentioned today, just top of my list. And you were one of them, Dan. I've known you forever, too. I appreciate that. Just a good bunch of people.

Speaker: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I've often been reminded and somewhat disappointed at times that just because somebody's friendly doesn't mean they're your friend and you find out that some people are disappointing in the way that they would treat you and the conditions they would put on you and stuff. And I know you went through some of that and I have too. And it's disappointing, but in a way it's revealing too.

Speaker: It is. I feel my eyes are wide open. I have a good impression. I have a really realistic, great impression of humanity right now. And it was really dark there for a while, like I was really not feeling that, but I feel like...

Speaker: In a nutshell, really it is, is people are good and bad. It's never going to change. This desire for perfection on earth is never going to happen. Let's embrace it and let's do the best we can with what we got. I've got a song called Take the Left that I haven't put out yet. And the chorus is, you know, take the left, take the right, win the war and lose the fight. It's all part of a plan I've begun to understand. And I've kind of seen the beauty of

Speaker: everything, the good and the bad, it's all perfect. And it's all exactly what you need. In Buddhism that I was in, there was a chant namul orangyakyo and basically it meant out of the swamp grows the beautiful lotus flower. And to me that says it all, right? You need the swamp, that's your soil. And like one of the sayings I heard when I was studying counseling was never don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Oh, fantastic. That you can have a good life, it's never.

Speaker: Well, the thing is, is that that's right. Cause people, if you, if you're looking for perfection, you're going to be permanently disappointed, but if you can find good, you got good. But yeah, in politics, there's, there's the perfection parties and, um, and, you know, ironically, they probably are less close to perfect than the ones that aren't even trying for it. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. But there's a lot of weird stuff in the world. Yeah. Well, you and I are, are very, very much, uh, you know, think the same similarly, I would say.

Speaker: Well, good. I'm happy. You're living in Calgary. You're happy. You're still writing and recording and developing artists. I saw you did some work with an artist called Chuck Chapman. I'm glad you mentioned him because I promised I would mention him. I've been working nonstop. I finished the Thor album months ago and all I've been doing every day is this Chuck album. Fortunately, he's willing to go slower and I end up being

Speaker: Like mostly the guitar player, you know, rhythm lead, everything I'm arranging and just really getting to use all my little tools. And I went down to East and South Carolina, played a gig with those guys down there. And I mean, small little gig, but the people that came up and talked to me after that were in the other bands.

Speaker: knock my head off. I've never had such camaraderie and family and support and no competition, just this love fest that I came out and went, oh my God, I'm buzzing. This is going to be my next six months of fuel right here for this one little show. So what's the plan for him? He's got some stuff released to radio and he's touring.

Speaker: Yeah, first album I did with him through Thor again, he just asked me to guest on a song because he wanted all guitar players from around. And like down the States, I'm recognized as a guitar player. In Vancouver, I couldn't get arrested again. But in the States, I'm kind of a guitar player. So he said, well, you play on the song. And I did, and we got to know each other. And he said, look, I'm running into trouble. The only other guitar player I've had is the guy from Enough's Enough on one track.

Speaker: I got a whole album to do. Would you want to come and just get this album done? So I came in and I arranged it and I played all the parts. Then I got John Webster I called a favor in and we went down to the old little mountain me and John and so he got this first album out. We were number five on iTunes in

Speaker: England between Metallica and Bob Seeger. Yeah, that's so great. So now he's got another label called Self Made that are out of Europe and we have a new album to put out and I'm just like in the midst of trying to get all these songs. Basically, I went down there and I got the drums and throw away everything else and that was in November and I've been working with a guy named Chris Russell who you know,

Speaker: who again has become super close in my circle and he has been a part of this and part of the Thor now. So he's kind of our newest addition and I'm super, I hope you are too, I'm super impressed with him. Well, no, I reached out to you when I did my album because I wanted some advice and I came to you and there was two or three people I asked for advice and you were one of them and then you hooked me up with him and he's been great. I'm very, very thankful for that.

Speaker: he's helping me because I mean basically if I end up mixing this album he's going to be the assist for sure because he's done a ton. I think what's going to happen with him is he's going to reach full capacity pretty quick because it's starting to get out that he's one of the good guys but you'll either have to expand or just sort of level off but he's quite busy now and he's tremendous. I love that.

Speaker: Well, good for you. So I often ask my guests, you know, how do you see the music scene today? And, you know, some of them are especially the nostalgia artists are like, well, it's totally different. It's just a different world. I don't know. I can't swim in it. But it sounds like you're kind of bridging the gap between having been what we would consider a nostalgic artist because you were around for many decades. But you're also fully engaged nowadays. So how do you see the music scene now?

Speaker: Well, I mean, my direct thing is that I'm dealing with a label called Cleopatra Records out of LA and a guy named Kevin Ty, who's the guy I deal with. And again, just a tremendous guy.

Speaker: I know it's bad out there, but with my new way of thinking, I'm just surrounded by this great energy. Really, the thing you got to let go of in the music business is money. When the money shows up, great. But if you're about money, you're going to be bitter. Once the money's out of it, we're just a bunch of guys trying to be successful.

Speaker: I don't know. I know the business is bad, but I'm loving it. Like I'm, I'm loving the people I'm working with. And, um, I don't know. I just, I, you know, again, in Buddhism, there's a thing about grasping where if your existence is grasping, like I'm not happy, but I will be when I get that next house or that next car, that record deal. Um, I don't have that anymore. It's like, you know, I'm playing way less than I used to, but I got great shows coming up and, and I, I, when I write a song.

Speaker: people all over the world are going to hear it whether they like it or not. I'm content as hell, but if I was 20, I'd give it a hard think of do you want to live a life of where there's a lot of drugs and alcohol and a lot of habits that you can form that are going to stop you from having a meaningful relationship. I never had kids or anything because I was dirt poor my whole life.

Speaker: You know, so there's things I missed, but right now, and I mean, I'm not trying to, you know, another, here's a good saying too, and you probably noticed that counselors never judge your outside, your inside by someone else's outside. So these radio things too, I always promise myself, like my life's not rosy.

Speaker: But I'm so grateful for everything I have. And I have so many good days and the bad days, I just kind of work through them. And no matter what happens, these days are going to come. So it's a struggle for me like anyone else. And I'm just trying to look at the bright side and I'm pretty happy and satisfied.

Speaker: Mostly mostly you've done a lot i mean i think especially when you get older again you deal with that you want you talk about the positive energy that just translates into what i said about i just want to deal with my friends i just want to deal with people who i consider friends or who could be friends with that i don't care about the people who want to exploit me or treat me like a commodity.

Speaker: or people who are fake friends. I just want to deal with people who are genuine. And then you're pretty comfortable in your own skin and the success is measured by something different than money is what your point was.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have, um, you have some of those friends that'll challenge you too. Like I'm not looking for a bunch of ass kissers. Like if they want to say, Hey, Kevin, you should pull your socks up here and there. I've got those people, but they're good people and I know they're good people and I know their intent isn't just, you know, cause I've, I've, I'm sure you have too, but

Speaker: I've told a few, we talked a few stories to friends and they've gone, wow, you've met some real horrible people. Yeah, I've really been like on the verge of not halfway in nervous breakdowns and things. To this day, I mean, there's sharks out there that is gunning for me.

Speaker: But I try not to give that any attention because, you know, then all of a sudden the person that just gushed all over you sincerely and loves what you're doing gets 5 % of your attention and 95 % is going to the guy that's just, he's just trying to get under your skin, like just let it go. I mean, you know, when I say this, it's not that easy and if you're out there struggling, so am I.

Speaker: Well, fair enough. I guess you got to set your goals. I always felt like I never achieved the goals that I had originally set out for myself. So what I did was just adjust those goals. I wanted to make it and I was going to be a big star and all this stuff. Eventually, as the years go by, I would never have paid the price. Maybe I couldn't have been anyways, but I wouldn't have paid the price to do that. But one of the things that I find that brings a lot of discontent to people is comparing your weaknesses against other people's strengths.

Speaker: So, some people's strengths might be to write hit songs. And that's not my strength. I've written some good songs. I've never written a hit song. But I'm not going to compare my weaknesses against someone else's strength. And I'll just take what my strengths are and and profligate those as much as I can in my life and do the best I can with it. And I'll be comfortable in my own skin at the end of it. And it sounds sort of simple, but it's a better path to happiness than to constantly be disappointed in your effort or your success.

Speaker: And they're fake. When you hit them, you'd still feel empty anyway. Yeah, good point. There was a famous saying that I forget who said it, but he said, I wouldn't have tried so hard to get to the top if I had realized there was nothing there. I have long conversations with friends that did a lot better than me, you know, Al. And another guy I really like I want to mention is Neil Turbin, who was the first singer for Anthrax. And he was on, I produced him on an album.

Speaker: with Thor and he's become a really close friend too and I mean he's seen a lot more than me too and all these guys share their struggles and I realize that they're in the same place I am anyway. If not, I'm actually feeling grateful that I actually have a little more

Speaker: But I'm going to see Neil for the first time. When I first met him, it was he was going to be on the John album. So John says, well, here's his number. Give him a call, Thor. I mean, and he's in the Hollywood Hills in a car trying to get to a house because after five o 'clock

Speaker: There's eight or whatever. There's a curfew like he couldn't be on the road So he was still so committed to music that in LA he's driving to this house where he's gonna jam all night Sleep in his car and at five in the morning He's allowed to drive home again, and that's the first time I ever met him Wow on the phone and we just hit it off like that guys I'm really looking forward to seeing him in LA because I want to do more with him This guy is you know anthrax singer. This guy's like a Mike Bolton Michael Bolton, you know

Speaker: like just an incredible soul R &B singer that has so much to offer. It's a cool little circle of people, but you talk to Al, he's got incredible stories, but we're all struggling with the same stuff. The answer wasn't becoming a rock star. That would probably have been my demise. I don't know if I would have survived it.

Speaker: Well, I think that's right. I think that's right because you never see the path you didn't take. You only see the path you did take, but that path you didn't take might have led to a cliff. Yeah, quite possibly. And I know for me, that's part of my story. I toured a bit, but I just, you know, I would have lost my family or not had a relationship with my kids that I wanted and stuff. And that would have never, I would have been way too high a price to pay for any gig.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean at the end you're alone in a hotel room, you know, I mean you might not be, but generally in the end you are because nothing works. So you end up with your ears buzzing in a hotel room. If you're fortunate enough to get past the addictions and stuff, your head's not buzzing and rolling and everything. And you go, okay, this is lonely. This sucks. Every bit of this sucks except that hour we were on stage.

Speaker: but all those people when you're looking out in the crowd all those people have lives and all those people went home to their life you're back in the hotel room some guys back in the hotel room drinking a bottle of jack.

Speaker: and watching reruns of Johnny Carson or something, right? That's not a lie. We kind of think the guy in the stage is the winner. He's got the girls needs money and the money and you're just the lowly guy in the audience enjoying it. Now I'm realizing I think they're getting the better deal because there's no amount of money you can give to a musician. It's a sacrifice at the end of the day, no matter what you get, it's a sacrifice. You've given it to the people.

Speaker: Well, that's what I say when we do the Bob Seger shows. And before I do turn the page, I talk about that and talk about, you know, when I look on the stage now and I see big stars, I always ask myself the question, you know, what price did that person pay to be standing in that spot that he's standing in? And sometimes it's really high.

Speaker: You know, John Cody, um, Lee Aaron's husband just wrote a book called Happy Forever about the guy from the turtles, Mark. Yeah, I'd like to read that. Yep. I would, I would recommend it. And, and you really want to get inside a musician, you know, and, and what it, what it's entailed, how we got into it, why it happened, how it went so long. This guy reinvented himself like four times. I mean, he became a.

Speaker: First off, he became a musician, and then when the business got into it, they couldn't even call themselves the turtles anymore, and then he became Flo and Eddie, and he's in, you know, Frank Zappa, and then he became a professor. And then he had a spiritual awakening and became a... He's Jewish, but he became a Christian.

Speaker: And so it's like a four -part life story of how all these things affected and all the other people that were part of, you know, the players, like the Zappas and all these, you know, he was in Laurel Canyon. I mean, everybody, I mean, Frank Zappa and like Mickey Dolan's, you know, would hang out at the pool. There was no difference in, oh, you're not allowed to be here. Like everybody was...

Speaker: It just sounds like a good time. Yeah, I'll check it out. John Cote. Happy forever. Happy forever. Very cool. Many thanks to my guest, Kevin Stewart Swain for being part of the Liner Notes podcast and sharing some insights from his many musical adventures and accomplishments. More information is available at kevinstewartswain .ca.

Speaker: and also YouTube, Kevin Stewart Swain, check that out, there's lots of videos on there and he's active on Facebook and social media as well. So, we hope you enjoyed the podcast and invite you to subscribe to it and share it on social media so others can enjoy it as well. And we also invite you to listen to Dusty Discs Radio Tuesdays and Thursdays to hear the music from the Canadian artists you're hearing on this show. Until next time, I'm Dan Harry.