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Overcoming the Challenges Facing Pasture Poultry with Mike Badger, APPPA
174 Plays4 years ago
In this episode of the Direct Farm Podcast, we're excited to welcome back Mike Badger, Executive Director of the American Pasture Poultry Producers Association. Listen as Mike talks about how APPPA has been working to provide American Pasture Poultry Producers the resources they need to overcome the unique challenges they face as poultry Farmers.
Show notes:
https://apppa.org/
https://www.barn2door.com/resources
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Key Focus Areas
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Direct Farm podcast, the weekly listen for farm selling direct. We'll talk about the four levers for farm success, which are quality, brand, price, and convenience. We'll hear from outside industry experts and producers like you to delight your customers, save time, and to increase your direct farm sales and business. We're glad you're here.
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome
Introduction to Mike Badger and APPA
00:00:27
Speaker
to the Direct Farm podcast. I'm Rory, your host. We've got a great conversation for you today with the American Pasture Poultry Producers Association, or APPA. APPA is a nonprofit trade organization that encourages the production, processing, marketing, and purchasing of poultry raised on pasture. I'm delighted to welcome Mike Badger, the executive director of APPA. Welcome, Mike. It's been a while since we've had you here on the podcast, because you maybe start just by introducing APPA and kind of how it came to be.
00:00:54
Speaker
Well, first of all, thanks Rory for having me on the podcast and, uh, for allowing me to represent Appa. Appa came into existence in 1997, formerly it started at back then as just a way to get the grassroots people who were kind of piling onto this new idea called pasture poultry that Joel Salatin was champion. And the organization kind of formed from that need of those people to get together and share resources and share ideas and help one another grow.
00:01:20
Speaker
a better pasture raised chickens. And that's pretty much where we started. And we've held pretty tight to that mission over the last 25 years.
00:01:27
Speaker
That's great to hear. And that's awesome to hear that you guys have kind of maintained that consistent mission, but what are some ways that maybe that mission has kind of evolved since its origin? Yeah,
APPA's Evolving Focus and Impact
00:01:36
Speaker
sure. So one of the things that early on, and even I'd, I'd say the real shift has happened here in the last five to seven years. Before that we needed a lot of information about how to raise good chicken, the husbandry, the management, feed, the processing, but as information becomes more readily available.
00:01:54
Speaker
We're seeing that the need for our, our members and really the community at large comes down to business, a lot of business training related topics and really getting more out of their husbandry, their management and just how they raise chickens. So the technical level, I think that Appa engages is higher than it was, you know, just five years ago. And certainly we tend to focus more on some business subjects. How did you get involved with the organization?
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah. So my role currently is the executive director. So I kind of manage everything day to day. I started back, I don't know, about 10 years ago, I started raising some chickens, doing it pasture raised. And one of my friends said, Hey, you should check out this organization called Appa. I looked them up, joined, but also that time I realized that they had a job opening for an editor for the newsletter and I applied for it and I got the job to edit the bi-monthly newsletter. So that's how I came into Appa and kind of took over the executive
00:02:47
Speaker
director role when the previous one left. Could you maybe go into a little bit on how Appa has helped Pastry poultry farmers? You kind of touched on how recently you guys have been building more information around the business of pastured poultry. Well, I have two primary answers to this. One is in the business side of things, we usually take a deep dive into the numbers. And so when it comes to production numbers, like just understanding how much
00:03:10
Speaker
B, does it take to get that one pound of chicken or that dozen of eggs? What are your management decisions that you make and really try to show those relationships. And that's part of where we tie that back into the production. One of the other things that we do is marketing leadership and just general business management. A lot of that stuff ties into our conference. And then some of that information then trickles out throughout the rest of the year to the membership, usually through our bi-monthly newsletter, which is 28 pages.
00:03:36
Speaker
So it's not just, you know, a quick throw together publication, but it is kind of our journal of record of the pasture poultry industry in Nevada. In Jacksonville in 2020, our last in-person conference, you know, we brought in a lean manufacturing consultant from Rhode Island to lead several workshops throughout our conference about lean.
00:03:54
Speaker
principles and how that could apply to the farm because he had been working with one of our members and training the consulting really helped out this farm become more efficient and just the way they approach it. And so that's examples of some of the stuff that we do. We kind of look for things that you wouldn't necessarily expect to see when you go to a pasture poultry conference.
00:04:13
Speaker
How is APA able to help a farmer that might be coming maybe more of a conventional farming background start to implement those pasture poultry methods on their farm?
Challenges and Benefits of Pasture Poultry Farming
00:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's a tough one. The two systems really aren't complimentary. You know, you would think that the conventional farmer and integrated farmer who has a
00:04:29
Speaker
you know, maybe a stationary house capable of holding 20 or 30,000 broilers, you know, they might see the opportunity to come into a niche like pastured poultry. I do take those calls from time to time, but usually the couple with the bottlenecks that show up right away is that housing that they have already, that infrastructure, that loan that they're paying down, isn't really conducive to raising pastured poultry. It doesn't fit within the model because pastured poultry is first and foremost about movement across pastures. So that's the first obstacle.
00:04:55
Speaker
And the second one is, you know, when you raise 30,000 chickens for an integrator, a couple of trucks show up, a crew of hardworking young people show up and they throw them on a truck in half a night and they're gone. And that farmer has one customer, one point of sale, and they just take what they get. But when you move into the pasture poultry space where it's direct marketing, it's a different game. And you know that very well with your work at Barn to Door, right? That's what you guys do is help farmers understand that. And the scale up process.
00:05:23
Speaker
tends to be a lot longer and more drawn out than just building a barn and stocking it or six times a year with tens of thousands of birds.
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah, certainly a lot of roadblocks, but definitely some benefits too. I know something that we talk about. If you're doing conventional farming, you probably have one buyer, but as you go direct, you do get the benefit of managing your contacts and being able to have real buyer relationships, which is a huge advantage. What are maybe some of the other advantages to raising past your poultry that farmers don't necessarily realize before they either make that switch or if they're just starting to get into it, they're like, Oh, look at all these added benefits or this is easier than I thought it would be.
00:05:57
Speaker
I don't think anybody ever says it's easier than they thought it would be, but I think some people get connected to it. They see freedom in it. They see power in it. But some of those benefits, you know, when I'm talking about pasture poultry, I like to usually frame the big picture in pasture. It's more than just a photo opportunity. It really has purpose and it starts with the health of the bird. One of the reasons that a lot of pasture poultry
00:06:20
Speaker
producers can raise birds without antibiotics and other medications and manage their diseases is through a healthy pasture rotation by getting the birds off of their waste today and then on to fresh green grass the next day and so they're always moving and that gets them away from you know a lot of the pathogens and stuff so it's health of the bird health of the pasture but
00:06:39
Speaker
You know, the models you often see with the stationary houses, the birds go outside and they continuously graze an area of the pasture over time, relatively short amount of time. It doesn't look like pasture anymore. It looks like dirt, or it's really heavily impacted, especially around the barn. And that's not good for the soil. And then, consequently, it's not going to be good for the birds that are grazing on there.
00:06:58
Speaker
And then you have the health of the community, just that those economic personal relationships that you establish farmer to consumer, keeping money within your community, those kinds of things. And so it's a holistic view of what pasture raised is. And it's more than just turning birds out onto the outside and into green grass. And if you don't quite have that full picture, when you start pastured poultry, you tend to want to shortcut the details and you, because you don't understand how the details really do matter in this production model.
00:07:25
Speaker
So I know something that also is very valuable about APA is the community that you guys are able to provide for pasture poultry farmers.
Community and Education Initiatives by APPA
00:07:32
Speaker
How do you guys go about fostering that community and helping farmers kind of collaborate together to be successful? One of the very powerful and underrated parts of our membership until you get there, until you see it, we host a private discussion group that when you become a member, you have access to some of the stalwarts in the community. And that's just a treasure trove of really
00:07:53
Speaker
great information and that's one of the ways. And the events that we do take that to the next step, you know, we've been running a national conference now for, this will be our sixth year coming up, but the events, the way we structure them is we try to put them so that they're member first. And by that, I mean that we show up to one of our conferences, it's a good chance that half of the agenda will be blank because that other half of the agenda will be determined by whoever shows up.
00:08:17
Speaker
We might have 25 people in a room or 80 people in a room around a specific topic, like value added processing or value added products and have a one or two moderators just kind of lead that discussion. And what happens is somebody asks the questions. I want to know about making a chicken sausage.
00:08:32
Speaker
You don't even have any ideas or any, anything to watch out for. And then a couple other people can jump up and say, we do this and it works like this or, and provide that back and forth real time scratching the itch of what people have at that time. And then we've started more recently, just running some monthly live webinars.
00:08:49
Speaker
A while back, the market as a whole started to catch on to a lot of the inhumane and the unethical practices used in the poultry industry as a whole, but it almost kind of led to this massive use of all these different terms and misleading messaging in poultry. And so how does Appa help their poultry farmers be educated and market their products to help consumers see the value in pasture poultry and understand what that is, but also to kind of see past that other misleading messaging that is so common in the poultry industry.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, usually I think what you're talking about there is label claims. You see all these different label claims of this and that antibiotic free and free range and pasture access and on and on it goes. Part of me is amazed that, you know, after all these years, we still need to have education with, for consumers specifically, you still have to have articles that describe the differences between free range.
00:09:39
Speaker
And what that really means in the U S we have to explain it to them because there's more and more people who just are bombarded by these messages and free ranges for the sake of clarity. This means that the birds have access to the outdoors, right? So all the, you know, most of the, the organic chicken you buy at whole foods, for example, doesn't mean it's ever solid.
00:09:56
Speaker
blade of grass in his life, its first sunshine it ever saw was probably when it got caught and put in a chicken truck called to process it. And so how do we deal with that? We try to do everything we can in our conversations and our articles and just lay out the issues. I'm a firm believer that our members need to keep tabs on what the industry is doing, what issues there are. They can go into their markets, into their customers and be a knowledgeable, accurate, truthful resource for them and be able to articulate
00:10:25
Speaker
The differences and the challenges. One of the ways that we've helped with that is we launched an initiative called Get Real Chicken. Get Real Chicken is basically a consumer directory site where our members can opt in to have a listing. And so when you become a member, you'll get some emails. We have five videos that kind of walk through some of these issues from a broad perspective and give some information about these issues. One of them being pasture raised, you know, versus free range like eggs, for example.
00:10:51
Speaker
Just showing the difference of what pasture raised means is a big theme for all of those videos. And it's a daunting challenge because when anybody, especially a commodity industry realizes they can get a few more dollars in a niche market, their goal doesn't become.
00:11:07
Speaker
How can I replicate that production model and get the value their thinking becomes? How can I change just enough as really minimizes the impact of me while still getting a premium for my product? It's almost the same product as I had before, but I'm going to market it like it's something different.
00:11:24
Speaker
I'm going to get a premium, but the challenge with that is it's usually dishonest and their premium undercuts them, the existing niche market and price. And so that's where all this confusion comes in. And it's a, the challenging one. It's going to get worse before it gets better, I think. And we started by giving our members and really anybody who wants to use them some cash or poultry branding videos that they can use and share and use it as a base to talk to their customers and say, look, this is what we do. This is, you want to know what we do? Look at these videos from Appa.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah. And those videos are really well done. They're available on Appa's website. If you visit Appa.org, I would encourage you to because they are great. They're super educational. And in one of those videos, they talk to farmers from across the country raising pasture poultry. But one of the farmers points out the best way or maybe the only way to know how your food is raised and what goes into your food is to know your farmer personally. And so what kind of strategies does Appa share with farmers to help them grow their audience in and build those relationships so that
00:12:21
Speaker
customers
Marketing Strategies and Consumer Relationships
00:12:22
Speaker
can know their farmer and know exactly how their products are being raised this is really about relationships and how do you form them some people get that some people don't and the truth of it been trying to kind of help folks see when i talk with them that relationships that's what the whole world turns on like apple turns on relationships your marketing efforts turn on relationships your
00:12:41
Speaker
The employees you manage, internal relationships, and it seems like we always need more. There's always more need for marketing. And so processing is a big bottleneck. Marketing is also, in my opinion, just as an important and formidable bottleneck as processing. I think marketing is easier to solve when you get over the initial fear of it. So we do devote a lot of resources to that, whether it's like I said, in print articles, interviews with other people, and just, you know, spending a lot of time throughout the conference talking about this and
00:13:10
Speaker
That's great to hear that you guys are able to offer those resources and kind of help people learn how to establish that relationship. Because I think like you were talking about with all these different labels in the poultry industry, I think consumers can sometimes just not know what to do, you know, and they don't know where to go. And so certainly knowing their farmer is the best way to kind of jump over that hurdle and get straight to the source.
00:13:29
Speaker
Another kind of big challenge facing the poultry industry is it's that very difficult to make a living wage and the profit margins are very small on a lot of those products. How can poultry farmers, you know, implement changes and kind of overcome the problem and grow a scalable business model?
00:13:46
Speaker
Yeah. So there's a couple things wrapped up in that question. I think one of the first things people need to figure out is what do I want my pastured poultry business to be? You know, do I want pastured poultry to support an income for me full time and then pay for everything that I need to live? Does it have to support my life? And if that's your answer, you need to be looking at a certain level. You need to be thinking in terms of growing to that point. You don't get there with a hundred chickens, but if you just want pastured poultry to provide something meaningful, you know,
00:14:16
Speaker
Maybe it's an added enterprise to your farm already. Maybe it's just something you do in your homestead to earn some extra money. Then that can look different. And the size of it doesn't really matter. Like you should have a profit no matter what your size is. Meaning if I raise a hundred chickens, I should be able to do that with a margin on top of all my expenses. How big can profit on a hundred birds really be? That's sometimes the part that gets small when you talk to people. It's like, well,
00:14:42
Speaker
I only have this, but they've only raised a few birds relatively speaking. And so the first thing you have to be able to do is determine where it is you want to be with your business. And once you do that, then you can be comfortable where you fall. Because if I only want to raise a thousand meat birds per year, for example.
00:14:58
Speaker
You're not only want to raise 50 pens for eggs, you know, the success of that enterprise looks a lot different than it does if you're trying to raise as a primary enterprise that supports the whole farm and your whole life. And so there's this whole line of thinking is this cost accounting thinking that you have to include all these indirect costs into your price. And, you know, you're going to pay for all your electricity, all your mortgage, everything that's all going to come down into some percentage of your per pound costs or your per dozen costs.
00:15:25
Speaker
And what you end up with is a dozen of eggs. It has to retail for $10 or you end up with a chicken that has to retail for like 899 a pound. And those usually don't work in the market. One of the cool things last in last year's virtual conference, we brought in Dave Pratt from ranching for profits to lead a workshop. He'll be back in 2022 for a whole day, but he really talked about this idea of it was simple. It was a simple approach. It was, what does it take to make a chicken or what does it take to make a dozen eggs? What are all those, those costs, whether it's, you know, feed the
00:15:53
Speaker
chick itself, the bedding, the tangible things that you put into it. And then what's your margin on? So you add a margin and that's your gross margin. And that has to pay everything else, including your labor and things like that. And then I'm really glossing over this. I don't want to make it sound like I'm giving advice here that I'm not quite capable of giving because it wasn't my presentation, but it's enthusiastic. And I was riveted by Dave's presentation.
00:16:16
Speaker
And that he just simplified all this, all the years of pricing conversations that you have. And it's just like, what does it take to make it at a margin? Now you have a margin and you have a certain dollar amount that you need to cover each month to live and to cover all your costs and have a profit. And as you scale, eventually you're going to hit that point where now you're profitable. But it is this idea is really get ahold of your costs is the first part of that and get ahold of what you want to do. And once you have those two pieces, I think there's other things come in line and finding out.
00:16:43
Speaker
where the, what works for your context is, is important too. What would be your advice or kind of insight to them on maybe some steps to their, their steps to the full time or profitability and growing a long-term scalable business and pass your poultry.
Financial Success and Full-time Transition in Poultry Farming
00:16:57
Speaker
You've, you're going to need to know several things to get to that point. You're going to have to know how to raise the chickens, market the chickens, and then run your business and figure out the processing along the way. And that's a lot of hats for one person to wear. So.
00:17:10
Speaker
Typically you're going to need more support, whether that's family or employees, you're going to need to find all those skillsets to help you grow. And I think, you know, again, it's, if that's where you want to go and that's part of the planning process, if that's the model you want to go to, then you can really plan to get there in a deliberate way. And rather than backing into pasture poultry, which is how most people get there, right? They, they raise 50 birds for their family. They're like, Hey, this is pretty cool.
00:17:32
Speaker
i think i could sell a couple of these and then next year they're they're raising like 400 and they're selling them and they don't really quite have any idea of the business implications of what they're doing it usually starts because they don't have a clear path of where they're going and once you have that clear path and you start plugging in with people who are smarter than you who've been there done it who can give you honest advice along the way
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah, definitely have the plan in place for the long-term growth is definitely a very key aspect to that.
APPA Conference Details and Resources
00:17:59
Speaker
We've touched on the APA conference a lot throughout this conversation, but the conference is set for January 16th to the 18th and it's going to be held in Jacksonville. Could you maybe tell us a little bit more about what pasture poultry farmers could expect from that conference?
00:18:13
Speaker
We're actually working through some of the final details, but here's what I can tell you. We're going to go bigger than what we've done in previous years. Hopefully everybody can get there. The main conference is in person in Jacksonville. It's three days. Our first day will be workshop based. That's where we'll have a Dave Pratt from Ranch for Profit come in.
00:18:31
Speaker
lead a four day workshop on basically money and people will split his time between those two things. Monday and Tuesday will come along and we have some other marketing topics specifically. I think we have a story brand topic lined up. These are kind of tentative. I'll throw them out there, but everything's somewhat subject to change at this point, but I'll give you what I'm 99% sure of.
00:18:50
Speaker
And we have some other business topics and then the rest of it will just, you know, breakout sessions around those topics and then around the issues that our members bring to us. So we want to utilize them to get the experience that they need is kind of how we approach our conference. And then backing up into December, we'll host two virtual pre-conference events. December 4th will be our introductory workshops to pasture poultry. That'll be a full day. And then December 11th, we'll do a heritage breeders summit. Again, a full day kind of event just to get access to more people.
00:19:18
Speaker
build off the success we had of our virtual event last year and then lead into our in-person stuff in Jacksonville. That's great. That's really awesome to hear and very unique concept, kind of two appas that having such a almost reactive conference to the needs of what your farmers are facing this year or that season or whatever it may be. So that's a really great resource. Where could people find more information?
00:19:40
Speaker
information will be at appa.org. Find the conference link. It's usually slash conference and you'll be able to get details as they emerge there. That's certainly great to hear. And I'm, I'm excited to see the work you guys continue to do and also the results of your conference coming up in the next year. Well, I want to extend my thanks to Mike and all the farmers at American pasture poultry producers association at barn to door. We're delighted to serve farmers in all 50 States, including pasture poultry farmers across the country.
00:20:06
Speaker
For more information on the American Pasture Poultry Producers Association, visit apa.org. To learn more about Barn to Door, including access to numerous free resources and best practices for your farm, go to barn to door.com slash resources. Thank you for tuning in. We'll see you next week.