Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 21 - Nick Denton - The History of Gawker, And Why The American Empire Is Destroying Itself
133 Plays11 days ago
On this episode of the Sphere Podcast, Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry, Publisher of Sphere Media, has a wide-ranging conversation with Nick Denton. Most famous (or infamous, depending on who you ask) as the founder of Gawker Media, Denton remains an active investor and entrepreneur with keen insights on current affairs, economics, and geopolitics. Gobry and Denton talk about the history of Gawker, Denton's front-row seat as American discourse grew crazier and crazier, leading to the Great Awokening and to the rise of Trump, why he thinks the current Administration is experiencing the same kind of madness that took over the Gawker newsroom, and why he believes the American Empire is dead. It's a wide-ranging, fascinating conversation.
Subscribe to the PolicySphere Morning Briefing: https://policysphere.com/subscribe
Follow Nick on X: https://x.com/nicknotned
Subscribe to the Sphere Podcast on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sphere-podcast/id1780831168
Subscribe to the Sphere Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/48eWEcxSYDyrgjC3lO0EJZ
Subscribe to the Sphere Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB2gs2TBXeP7vyn9QUaaxjQ
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Low Production Values Sphere podcast, which this time is very low production values because we don't even have video.
00:00:10
Nick
video. As always, I am broadcasting
00:00:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah As always, I am broadcasting from my terrorist hideout, which this time in Saint-Saint-Denis, which is the the Islamic Republic of Saint-Saint-Denis in the north of Paris.
00:00:22
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah And my guest this week is somebody who I've admired for maybe 15 years at least. um And that is ah Nick Denton, who is most famous as the founder of Gawker Media, but has done many, many interesting things and has many interesting thoughts.
00:00:46
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And the reason why i admired Nick so much at a distance and then we got to know each other ah is because I grew up in a French media ecosystem, which was so ah closed down and so
00:00:46
Nick
And the reason why I admire Nick so much at a distance and then he gets nervous
00:01:06
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
um so sort of controlled by a very small network of people who basically decided what the what the party line would be on any given week that the sort of blogging revolution that ah Nick had you had such a role in starting felt incredibly liberating.
00:01:27
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
um So I wanted to talk to
00:01:30
Nick
So I wanted to
The Evolution of Blogging
00:01:31
Nick
talk you.
00:01:31
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
you.
00:01:31
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
i know you've been doing other podcasts on, you know, the state of the world and where you see things as a businessman and investor.
00:01:31
Nick
I know you've been doing a podcast on the theme of the world. I want to talk about that.
00:01:37
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
and And I want to talk about that. But most what I've always wanted to ask you about how you
00:01:41
Nick
But I've always wanted to you about...
00:01:45
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
how you saw things evolving from the inside, how you saw the way that you know blogging, which is a very retro term now, sort of changed the way American discourse happened and eventually global discourse happened.
00:02:02
Nick
Thank you.
00:02:03
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
did you ah I'm going to start with a provocative phrase. did you Did you think that it would get so weird and so strange when you started Gawker?
00:02:16
Nick
We were all, i mean, I think all of us were way more idealistic ah back then. um So, you know, we we totally all some better version of the truth emerging from open discussion on the internet, and the where, you know, a experts who had been ignored by their organizations would be able to um to persuade just through the sheer power of their arguments that the information would rise up and connect and get to where it was needed.
The Impact of Metrics on Writers
00:02:53
Nick
and So i think it back then it was like an entirely different situation. but and we and we ah We absolutely saw the discussion systems, software systems evolving, and yeah correcting the mistakes that you could see were emerging already, um and getting us to some kind of digital yeah utopia.
00:03:14
Nick
And, well, obviously that didn't happen.
00:03:19
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
So what were wrong? What do you think went wrong?
00:03:23
Nick
I mean, I think that... We're going to go straight to the core the core of things. um But the metrics
00:03:38
Nick
ah That was a lure and was a lure for individual riders, just automatically they'd be checking their numbers. And it was a lure for you systems designers like myself and' to to connect up riders directly with the with an incentive system.
00:03:57
Nick
So for them to be able to kind of measure the ah the response of the audience kind of in real time and to adjust what they were doing in the light of that data. So ah a tight, tight feedback loop.
00:04:12
Nick
um and uh that worked but you can argue that it worked it worked rather too well uh drove the gorker riders mad at some point uh and the drove the whole world mad now
00:04:33
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, I mean, i um you you you were famous or infamous for having, I believe, a screen at the Gawker headquarters that showed live each writer's performance.
00:04:46
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
um
00:04:46
Nick
Uh-huh.
00:04:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
is that Is that true?
00:04:49
Nick
Well, it was each story. and so it was basically a ah real-time leaderboard.
00:04:52
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
OK.
00:04:56
Nick
um it was but you know basically but like those chart beats, top stories that a site would have, um but but this being tied to compensation too.
00:05:01
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right. art eat
00:05:07
Nick
Yeah.
00:05:08
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:05:08
Nick
um so so So whoever is up at the top of the board is going to get a bigger bonus that month, and a substantially larger bonus.
00:05:08
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:05:15
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:05:17
Nick
And yeah I was congratulating myself on the elegance, simplicity, ah cleverness of this
00:05:17
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:05:25
Nick
a whole design.
Incentive Systems and Risks
00:05:27
Nick
um Whereas, yeah especially with my background in derivatives and rogue traders, I should have been rather more alert and to some of the incentives. And also just a mismatch, you know, that yeah know any catastrophic losses would be borne by the institution and not by the individual rider. The individual rider would ah we we get the benefits of a of a of a hit, of a of a good story ah that resonated.
00:05:54
Nick
um But if a story really blew back on the organization, ah they that their losses would be limited. And the institution,
00:06:01
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
that That's a very good analogy, actually. Yeah.
00:06:04
Nick
and So I so i should have been know i mean i wrote ah co-wrote the book on this, or one of the books on this, about a rogue trader of Baring's Bank in Singapore who who blew who blew up England's oldest merchant bank, you know largely because he was unsupervised and because his bosses wanted to believe and the profits and were unaware of the accumulating liabilities in the back office.
00:06:16
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:06:31
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, no, that's ah that's a very good that's a very good analogy. For people who don't who don't know, ah this is very insidery, but Chartbeat was this New York startup that made an analytics tool just for media companies.
00:06:45
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And the the the this special thing about it was that it told you in real time what people were clicking on. um And, you know, that's that that that created, you know, that that certainly created incentives.
00:06:59
Nick
so
00:07:00
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Let's put it that way. I mean, so at the time,
00:07:03
Nick
I mean, I actually think that part of the issue, mean, if I look back and I think about, okay, well, what were the critical terms, especially the critical critical terms that may and not have seemed so critical at the time?
00:07:15
Nick
um So what you what were the junctures? And there was a, think it was a lunch with Jonah Peretti. And Gorka was, you know, had competition for,
00:07:24
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:07:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Jonah Priority, who would be the founder of BuzzFeed?
00:07:29
Nick
That's right. and and he was And he was arguing to me that ah page view incentives, so we'd operated on a system of basically rewarding writers for the amount of engagement they got, and which was mainly engagement from a from a core niche audience.
00:07:48
Nick
um and and And he persuaded me that if if I continued with this, that we would you basically be doubling down on this core audience and we would miss out on the gigantic growth that was happening in digital audiences at that time.
00:07:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:07:59
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
you
00:08:04
Nick
ah to Huffington Post, you know who he was advising, and and others like it ah that that were absolutely hungry for not for views but for uniques, not for enough for a contented core audience, ah but for ah continuous accelerating growth.
00:08:17
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
right
00:08:27
Nick
And he but he persuaded me.
Shift in Gawker's Focus and Strategy
00:08:30
Nick
and And I think actually that was a that was a fateful decision because that was but's taking an incentive system and then you of ah making it, ah the incentives apply to the second degree, ah the second derivative. it was ah It was definitely a ah ah ah sharpening of writer incentives that incented them to go after um mega scoops, almost traditional news stories.
00:08:54
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:08:57
Nick
so um that would actually break through onto television and you know get talked about um much, much more widely. And i think it that system, drove it drove us in that in the direction of news and tabloid news ah in a way that was ultimately very dangerous.
00:09:15
Nick
Yeah, I mean, you used to show a test at that time that sort of used to visit or
00:09:17
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, I mean, you you used to show a a chart at that time that showed um sort of ah unique visitors. And every time there was a scoop, there was a spike.
00:09:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And then it went down, but it settled at a level slightly higher than the previous level.
00:09:31
Nick
For long time... like
00:09:35
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And that was the theory, which...
00:09:36
Nick
ah
00:09:37
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
the The way you you get viewers is scoops, which actually sounds extremely virtuous, right?
00:09:38
Nick
that you are
00:09:42
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
You're doing you know you're doing investigative journalism.
00:09:43
Nick
you're doing you know investigative journalist
00:09:46
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
You're not just like reposting stuff with like rage-inducing headlines.
00:09:47
Nick
posting
00:09:50
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
You're creating an economic incentive for people to engage in investigative journalism.
00:09:53
Nick
for long for a long time ah for a long time ah it It did work, you know, and it and it worked well. ah You know, when when these were mid-sized sites, when they were basically like, you know, glorified online magazines um and and it it worked well.
00:10:11
Nick
um But, you know, more time that went on more competitors that came in, more capital that came in from... you know Andreessen Horowitz and others, um you know the more the sector was poisoned by American capitalism, and but the the ah the the more the incentives changed.
00:10:29
Nick
and yeah And then you had you know it's the bizarre situation of like increasingly left-wing journalists um
00:10:38
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:10:39
Nick
who whose incentives you led them, the white man stories did well. but Like, I would look up at the board and there they would be, but you know, one or two or three of them and they always had white man in the story or white men in the story.
00:10:56
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah
00:10:56
Nick
And that,
00:10:57
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Ah.
00:10:58
Nick
and though and I hated them because they were dumb. you know Almost all of them were dumb, dumb stories. um But they were there at the top of at the top of the board, and they would stick there.
00:11:11
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:11:12
Nick
And they would stick there for, like, who... Who were we to argue? You know, the audience had spoken.
00:11:18
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
right
00:11:19
Nick
You know, we had designed this whole company to be completely beholden to the audience. And and i think, you know, especially with social media and the tidal wave of traffic that came from social media, you know, the the fact is that the hoi polloi got into the club.
00:11:35
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right. I mean, okay, so this is this is where this sort of economic system intersects with politics, which is how we get to the broader story of what the hell happened to our civilization.
00:11:36
Nick
okay
00:11:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
um it But Gawker became known for a kind of particular style. And if you'll allow me, you know, people talked about snark, which was certainly true, but there was a kind of gratuitous...
00:11:54
Nick
And if you look out on the, you know,
00:12:02
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
meanness. And this is this is something that's sort of I don't want to say it's the same, but it's sort of weirdly parallel to the style of woke politics, which is, you know, it's what wokeness is not just like a set of beliefs about race and gender and so on and so forth. It's like a style.
00:12:24
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
of politics that's sort of angry, ah ah sort of gratuitously vicious, and so on and so forth.
00:12:24
Nick
I'll try take that through.
Gawker's Reputation and Cultural Commentary
00:12:32
Nick
i'm so I'm sorry to break in here, but like yeah but let's take a look in the mirror.
00:12:34
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:12:37
Nick
I mean, i don't mean i don't i don't me i don't mean you personally. um ah like you know you you You seem to still have a modicum of manners. But but but but like your your movement...
00:12:55
Nick
i'm i'm not I'm not taking any lectures from your movement on quality of discourse, okay?
00:13:00
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
you
00:13:01
Nick
um yeah like like go goga started off it like it went through different phases elizabeth spires was like was smart and jessica cohen was real funny um corey seeker was like was too indirect for my liking um and you know a little bit um dare I say too gay um and ah like so so it it had its different phases because it was you know it was a small site it was run by of one one or two people at the time and it would change according to know who the people were that would uh would run it and you know the the meanness like I mean it sometimes when it came to the PR people and the magazine companies and the old media and the
00:13:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes, yes. Yes.
00:13:39
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yes
00:13:47
Nick
yeah and i look I look back on it and I look at Jessica Cohen calling Joe Dolce a douchebag, which at it at the time was a big deal because it was yeah know i guess of a stronger word that had been than had been used so up to that point in the discourse.
00:14:04
Nick
and it was just like it was just like a straight-on personal you know personal abuse at the time i mean now it sounds extremely tired and dated um but but at the time it was actually it was actually kind of fresh because it was saying these people who seem like douchebags are douchebags you know like this whole system is extreme is extremely rotten and these are the rotten people who manifest the rotten system.
00:14:12
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:14:29
Nick
So, um like no, I'm not going to take any, ah like that much, ah ah like criticism of the the the the tone of Gawker, certainly as it applied to those people.
00:14:42
Nick
Because they deserved they but but they deserved all of but deserved all of that and far, far more, you know?
00:14:43
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:14:48
Nick
ah you yeah yeah you know you know what they deserved?
00:14:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
i
00:14:50
Nick
but and What they deserved was they deserved more essays in in a months in in amongst the the comic items. um So that so so that they but but what they deserved was was was a ah a more fully, more expensively argued essay
00:14:58
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
right
00:15:08
Nick
indictment of this whole damn system. um like that's That's what was owed the readers primarily. you know That was what was owed the writers themselves. you know That's what they actually, you know particularly in the later years, as there was more money, um that that's what they were actually increasingly able to do. So actually the quality of the essays i improved you know pretty much you know right through to 2012, 2013, 2014.
00:15:32
Nick
twenty twelve twenty thirteen twenty fourteen um you know You know, even during the most left-wing of periods, you Gorka was ah substantially more intelligent than any anything else that was actually in in its ah segment, its political segment.
00:15:46
Nick
I mean, I would absolutely claim that.
00:15:46
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yes
00:15:49
Nick
um yeah You know, Kyle Wagner's piece on the culture war, a dead spin.
00:15:50
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yes i mean
00:15:55
Nick
ah You know, you look back and it's like, oh, oh he saw it he so saw the whole damn future history. laid out like right right back in whatever it was, 2014, 2015.
The Hulk Hogan Legal Battle
00:16:05
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah. Now
00:16:07
Nick
So like but there are some there are some pieces there that absolutely stand the test of time. And frankly, the A.J. Delario Hogan piece, the the Hogan article that that actually brought down the company that provided the pretext for Peter Thiel's legal campaign.
00:16:18
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
now we're talking
00:16:24
Nick
um The video, it it was so disgusting to me that I never even saw it until the day before I was due to testify down in Tampa. um like I had no i have no interest in that kind of gross stuff.
00:16:38
Nick
And I think at some point i could yeah I could feel that it was a privacy violation.
00:16:40
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Thank
00:16:43
Nick
I don't care whether he's having sex with some other man and the other man is doing the one doing the filming or the context of it. the He had some expectation of privacy and it felt scummy having the video up and we took it down.
00:16:57
Nick
ah But the article itself, if you've ever read it,
00:17:02
Nick
Unfortunately for me, A.J. DeLario's gift, um but it was a perfectly it was a perfectly designed was perfectly designed case for Peter Thiel.
00:17:18
Nick
And it was a perfectly designed ah suicide, like ah but a bomb at the heart of everything I was trying to do.
00:17:19
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah
00:17:26
Nick
um Because it was it was entirely true. ah the whole thing from beginning to ah end. And it was interesting ah in its thesis because it was basically saying, here it is, and here it is. And by looking at this video, know, you are as bad as I am.
00:17:44
Nick
We are both, I am pandering to you with this video. You know, you can pretend to yourself, whatever you can pretend to yourself whatever motives you want, ah but I am pandering to you with this video.
00:17:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Interesting.
00:17:54
Nick
And you can pretend to yourself that by reading Gawker, you're reading a smarter version of all this this salacious gossip, you know, that you're reading the the take on it, you know, the the cultural interpretation of it.
00:18:07
Nick
yeah In fact, you're even reading this, you know, this pseudo-intellectual piece about the whole act of you watching this video and the self-disgust that you should feel now and the self-disgust that I certainly feel now.
00:18:19
Nick
And and ah read it. it's It's actually a very, very powerful piece. And that's why I could actually never, ever take it down, um because that that would have seemed a complete betrayal of everything that I ever stood for.
00:18:32
Nick
And so that's why I was up there, you know, on the ah but when Gawker was going on trial in Florida. And, you know, that argument that actually it was a good, true and interesting piece um fell, obviously, on death deaf ears and,
00:18:48
Nick
oh to MAGA majority magma majority jury jury you no and so in suburban Florida.
00:18:52
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
We're rural Florida jury, they were suburban
00:18:58
Nick
Suburban Florida, like absolute ma Tampa, like ah ah it's a total bellwether county in a bellwether state, what used to be a bellwether state.
00:19:00
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Florida.
00:19:09
Nick
And we um we went down there and was like, oh, like this is this is ridiculous. like we We are totally on hostile territory here. and any you know any oxford educated explanation of you know why gossip is important and you and why this this level of transparency that aj delario has revealed here in this piece is actually worth fighting for um like i laugh at myself my husband derence who's from texas uh you know he like he he was laughing at my lawyers laughing at me
00:19:37
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:19:44
Nick
yeah like laughing at all our illusions um but when we were down there confronted with the you know with the real majority in the country.
00:19:54
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah Yeah, I mean, that's that's that's ah that's a fascinating...
00:19:55
Nick
Yeah. I said, why is this reputation?
00:19:58
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
but By the way, what when when I asked my question about sort of the the sort of goaker style or tone, I think and <unk>s I prefaced it, and if I didn't out loud, I did it in my head.
00:20:03
Nick
I know it was
00:20:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah by saying it acquired this reputation.
00:20:12
Nick
wireness reputation i
00:20:13
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I know i know it was more than that, and I was happy to hear you defend Gawker, ah because yes, it like it it absolutely produced, among other things, really good journalism, really interesting essays, ah featured like really really smart and interesting writers.
00:20:19
Nick
yeah
00:20:22
Nick
do
00:20:29
Nick
like really right like really, really.
00:20:32
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
um
00:20:33
Nick
The world was a better place for the existence of writing like that. ah yeah For the enthusiasm of ah Gizmodo or Kotaku for just the um just yeah the love of beauty and simplicity and efficiency ah that you saw in Lifehacker.
00:20:51
Nick
and And yeah, the yeah the like that determination to say the unsaid, you know, to say what was previously the domain of journalists gossiping at a bar, to just like lay it all out there.
00:21:03
Nick
lay it Just lay it all out there. Come what may. um I think was it was a worthwhile it was a worthwhile effort.
00:21:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Good.
00:21:10
Nick
And now that I talk about it, i actually get prouder of it, talking about it.
00:21:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Good.
00:21:14
Nick
yeah despite the the the like despite Despite all the...
00:21:15
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
good
00:21:18
Nick
I accept most of the criticisms. And and i've I've said before that Peter Thiel did me a favor. I was relieved when Gawker.com was shuttered as part of the sales process.
00:21:28
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah
00:21:30
Nick
It its had yeah it had performed its function. if there There was not nothing good for it to do. What was it going to do? Join the anti-Trump resistance? Please.
00:21:41
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, I mean, I ah i hope you won't eat.
00:21:43
Nick
like like Like do Me Too, you know when it was doing you know the precursor to Me Too, it was doing.
00:21:49
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes, that's true.
00:21:49
Nick
you know but like the the store the store and we didn't We didn't actually usually, ah fortunately, I don't think much judgment was exercised. So yeah it wasn't like we were saying,
00:22:02
Nick
so-and-so must resign
Reflection on Gawker's Impact and Media Changes
00:22:05
Nick
huge action must resign like we won't ah like there was not nothing ponderous like that um but but but if there was a if there was a story going around about some movie producer with a horrendous reputation among amongst actresses like we we would absolutely run it yeah i'm I'm embarrassed that we didn't run more of the Weinstein stuff and we we ran most of the others but but for some reason we didn't we didn't do the Weinstein yeah
00:22:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:22:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah. um Yeah, I mean, I...
00:22:35
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
the the The story I used to say to defend Gawker had to do with ah Dominique Strauss-Kahn, who ah in France, in the chattering classes of France, was known to be a rapist.
00:22:50
Nick
A pig.
00:22:50
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Like, everybody knew.
00:22:51
Nick
Total pig. total pick
00:22:54
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And and not just ah not just a pig, but like you know ah ah ah
00:22:55
Nick
but but know
00:22:59
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
you know um and man who would invite women for quote-unquote job interviews to like a special apartment that he rented for that purpose and didn't let them leave.
00:23:10
Nick
Wasn't that that a huge orgy in Lille with like tons of prostitutes and all that kind of stuff?
00:23:13
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes. Yes. And yes. And they would like and and when you know, I mean, I'm trying to keep this a family friendly podcast, but you know, when when women didn't want to perform certain and sex acts, they would hold them down and
00:23:22
Nick
Okay. Sorry. Well, you brought him up, no not nu numb me.
00:23:29
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Like all of that was real and very well known. And like I knew a girl who'd been assaulted by Strauss-Kahn.
00:23:32
Nick
ah
00:23:36
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I knew a journalist who had gotten another girl to testify on the record and was told literally, if you ever want to work again as a journalist, you know, A, we're we're not publishing the story and B, if you ever want to work again and as a journalist, you will not pitch that story to other newspapers.
00:23:39
Nick
girl
00:23:47
Nick
Uh-huh. that Well, it sounds very Weinstein-like.
00:23:56
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right, and and so, you know, coming from that environment,
00:23:57
Nick
Right. You know, coming from that time,
00:24:02
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah reading Gawker felt like a liberation. And so, you know, i hope you won't mind me telling this story, and if you want, I'll edit it out. But I remember you and I had lunch in Paris, sort of, I mean, I don't want to say it shortly after, but after...
00:24:22
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah
00:24:23
Nick
when When I was but but back in Europe in 2017.
00:24:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes, after you lost Gawker and you seemed sort of very liberated in a very admirable sort of zen way, ah but also sort of extremely regretful or, or I mean, you you know,
00:24:26
Nick
yeah
00:24:46
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
use i was happy to hear you defend Gawker right now because back then you wouldn't have you wouldn't defend it or almost wouldn't.
00:24:48
Nick
can
00:24:54
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
So it's it's it's nice to to to hear this sort of balance of views ah because I do think that it's the the legacy of Gawker is is' complicated.
00:24:58
Nick
I do think that it's
00:25:04
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
like it It was both this sort of
00:25:08
Nick
i i don't think I don't think it's that complicated.
00:25:08
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
the but of
00:25:10
Nick
It like like it had its share oh ah oh kind of kind breakthrough stories and insights ah you know and mess-ups.
00:25:22
Nick
ah It had its share throughout. um But ah the... but but I think its social media plus Slack, you know plus we actually had a factor of moving ah all of three sites, Gawker, Deadspin, and Jezebel, we moved all the writers into one open plan office, you know basically like it so like like a school library.
00:25:42
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:25:44
Nick
um And so they're all slacking each other, they're tweeting ah to their friends in other publications, and they are absolutely at the center of the media ecosystem.
00:25:56
Nick
ah in in you the new media ecosystem and in in New York. They're totally connected with instant feedback ah from from stats and comments and tweets and ah ah messages and everything.
00:26:05
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah
00:26:12
Nick
ah just like just intensely connected and it's extremely unhealthy and they and that newsroom went mad between 2012 and 2015 not the writers who were remote they were kind of they were pretty much ah immune they they didn't really but they they didn't understand what was going on you know the lifehacker, Kotaku writers just that they didn't know they didn't know what was going on and then in the middle of it you had you also had the unionization
00:26:18
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:26:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
That's interesting.
00:26:33
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
That's interesting. That's fascinating.
Politics and Online Influence
00:26:42
Nick
and which which I won't say was part of derangement, um but but it was definitely yeah it was definitely part of a strong left-wing swing, which pretty much removed my power over editorial matters yeah until I reasserted it in 2015.
00:27:00
Nick
um man and that and that's and And that's what happened, and that's kind of what i why I think I recognize what's happening to Musk right now,
00:27:00
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, i so OK.
00:27:09
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Oh, interesting, interesting.
00:27:10
Nick
and for that matter the whole administration um because i think they are all ah being pulled down into a and online vortex and
00:27:23
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
They're too online. that's That's what you think is happening.
00:27:24
Nick
ah And I think the whole damn empire is being sucked down this vortex all to, as I said, I think so much to say before, all to satisfy 500 on Twitter.
00:27:42
Nick
talk about that. Talk about how it's important to God's answer.
00:27:45
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Okay, well, okay, so talk about talk about that. Talk about how that happened to Gawker and talk about the parallels you see with what's happening now with Elon and the Trump administration, because I think that's fascinating.
00:27:50
Nick
and to gaker and
00:28:00
Nick
Well, I think i've already I already have ah talked about what happened to Gorka, which is that there was a complete disconnect between Gorka audience or the ecosystem in which Gorka operated and the the the public.
00:28:16
Nick
and and that And then at the trial, that ah became extremely evident because you know what we thought was funny, ah the jury found revolting.
00:28:16
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
right Yeah.
00:28:29
Nick
what What we thought intelligent, ah they found perverted. ah So, like, complete complete cultural disconnect.
00:28:35
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:28:38
Nick
And and it's not not even with ah just with MAGA. I mean, I think i think ah all but two on the jury were Republican-leaning, I think.
00:28:50
Nick
um but the But the jury forewoman was an NPR-listening, intelligent, a democratic voter, moderate Democrat.
00:29:02
Nick
um and
00:29:03
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And she still hated you.
00:29:04
Nick
And she was disappointed in me. She was disappointed that so like a ah pedigreed
00:29:08
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:29:12
Nick
um ah brit
00:29:13
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Englishmen.
00:29:14
Nick
ah ah A p pedigreed Englishman who talked so nicely ah could could it could could have actually stooped to publish something ah so low.
00:29:25
Nick
ah And she was right. You know, my mom would have been disappointed. Absolutely.
00:29:29
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:29:31
Nick
so um so So that was the measure of the cultural gap.
00:29:31
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:29:35
Nick
ah that you know Here's this thing that yeah and at least a goodly proportion of your audience are cheering on, and they're certainly cheering on with their clicks. you know and then and then you actually you you you meet You actually see them face to face.
00:29:45
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I,
00:29:51
Nick
to face and yeah and your lawyer is trying all this First Amendment bullshit, that which is passing right ah rail over them. yeah sola you you know All the old you know democratic traditions, 12 angry men, all this kind of and just that like all that side of American culture is like is clearly completely irrelevant.
00:30:12
Nick
um And you know this is just is plain old yeah like culture gap. you know It's a plain old culture gap. And I think i think this is this is the plain old culture get that the online ride is now about to experience.
00:30:26
Nick
and that the
00:30:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
All right. Well, i talk talk about talk about that because I i i i mean, i I agree with you certainly to an extent. Like, it's certainly true that the people who are now running the administration are very online.
00:30:42
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And it's certainly true that I believe there is a risk there. Obviously, because the mainstream of the country is not the MAGA internet right and and
00:30:51
Nick
It's a risk. already in. risk was a long time ago. Any juncture, any path out of this was long time ago. Right now, unless you nuke the risk the risk was like as a long time ago like any juncture was ah any path out of this was a long time ago i mean i like right now and unless you nuke x You know, nuke the servers, you know. that a malevolent AI has originated, has emerged from within us.
00:31:21
Nick
It is here, right? I'm looking at it right now. it's it It is X. ah X is the is an intelligent amalgam, you of the the angriest people on the planet.
00:31:32
Nick
but what what what' what What do you think what what do you think ah x and What do you think X AI is going to be like? you know but but but What kind of AI are we birthing here?
00:31:44
Nick
you You put all the but the angriest people on the planet, the ones most betrayed, yeah the ones that are most suspicious of any official information, you put all of those people into one place, you network them, yeah you add an ai level ah AI layer on top of it.
00:31:46
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:01
Nick
yeah You put a ketamine, to quote one of your politicians, like a ketamine-addicted buffoon charge of the reform of your federal government. yeah And now ah don knows what position he's going to be so sniping at the administration from X. um it's a It's a disaster. It's not a risk of disaster. It's like a disaster right now.
00:32:24
Nick
um And think the market has finally yeah it's finally kind of woken up to it. It began to wake up, whatever, three days after the deep seek drop ah with the NVIDIA repricing.
00:32:36
Nick
And yeah and and now the you know the but now I think the markets realize that, no, the old the old equations don't work. The dollar might just might still decline you know despite these despite these tariffs. So the 2018 playbook, like clearly these circumstances are different.
00:32:54
Nick
um These tariffs are are amateurishly put together. like Any McKinsey consultant who came up with this as a ah yeah as ah as a plan would would be fired like and it's just it's just not competent you know plainly not competent and you know the smart people on the tech right are recognizing that i think they are distancing themselves extremely rapidly you just like look at look at all the silence you know look at all the people who are well look at all the people who are well away from this mess you know where is peter teal where is he yeah is he is he in new zealand
00:33:04
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:33:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
um
00:33:33
Nick
but is Is he in New Zealand trading stocks, shorting the US market through you know through intermediaries, ah like with
Europe's Strategic Responsibilities
00:33:45
Nick
shell companies? I mean, yeah you have to stay well away from that stuff.
00:33:48
Nick
Very dangerous, very dangerous. All that information, all that information and ah and a degree of detachment. ah he's he He must be in the greatest position any trader has ever been in and in all of human history right now.
00:34:02
Nick
you know No official obligations to hold him back. ah If the whole thing goes pear-shaped, he can always just disown Vance. you know Vance was the you know basically the hillbilly son that went awry. was ah
00:34:14
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I
00:34:14
Nick
you know It was ah an attempted adoption. it didn't work out. Incompatible with genetics. ah like ah Peter Thiel right now that somebody somebody needs to ask him some questions have some questions for him right now I just did
00:34:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Well, you know ah maybe maybe one day he will come on this podcast ah and and i will if and when he does, I will definitely ask you ah to submit questions.
00:34:46
Nick
i just did
00:34:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
what one one One of my fantasies is to do a joint Nick Dent and Peter Thiel interview, um maybe one day.
00:34:55
Nick
You know, i ah I offered that to him. ah Did I offer it to him or I was going to suggest it? was but It was basically like, you know what let's i think it was what i you know, I think it was, I suspected that he was the guy behind the lawsuits.
00:35:09
Nick
um
00:35:09
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, yeah, you you sort of began to suspect it, yeah.
00:35:10
Nick
as as as and and so And so I emailed him and it was like, you know, the common enemy is stagnation. It's basically like, what why why are we fighting?
00:35:24
Nick
why Why are we fighting? I mean, i guess that I guess that was the real question. like Why cannot this be resolved? like why are we Why are we fighting? who but Who is the enemy here?
00:35:37
Nick
What is the enemy here?
00:35:40
Nick
but but But I think that's been the story of America is that, you know, maybe Matt Iglesias and Joe Lonsdale, you know, have everybody from the hard right to the, you know, the sensible social Democrats, and like, no, no, everybody knows kind of what needs to be done.
00:35:55
Nick
ah But the the factions are so, you everyone's so deeply embedded in their factions and the bitterness is so ah great and that theres there's no possibility of people coming together and,
00:36:03
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:36:07
Nick
um some orderly reform ah at the moment. i think i mean I think that's the reason for my ultimate ultimate bearishness on the states. is just that
00:36:15
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
right
00:36:16
Nick
you You just cannot see people coming together. yeah You can't even see people coming together with within the Trump coalition. you know they are They are falling apart. you know that They are fragmenting as we speak.
00:36:28
Nick
ah like there is no There is no way that any reform or even any orderly debt restructuring is getting done.
00:36:36
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
So, okay, so that's that's the next question.
00:36:36
Nick
with
00:36:38
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Like, you you think the American empire is is on its way out, essentially.
00:36:46
Nick
and America's already withdrawn from Southeast Asia. did Did you not notice? ah Already, you've already ah China sent a small fleet all the way around Australia.
00:36:58
Nick
And there was...
00:36:58
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Oh, I did not know this. Okay, go on.
00:37:00
Nick
it's a base like go go look online, there's a whole bunch of maps, and including some kind of triumphant Chinese maps, you know, you're relishing the fact that they can you know rub these other powers' noses in the same, you know, kind of humiliation of having boats running a right up against your territorial zone.
00:37:19
Nick
um So they sent a little fleet around Australia, and yes, you haven't heard of it, because there was zero American reaction. but but but america The Trump administration is very ready.
00:37:33
Nick
Are you there?
00:37:34
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, yeah, I'm there.
00:37:34
Nick
ah okay. Sorry.
00:37:35
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I'm letting you talk, which is an interviewing practice.
00:37:36
Nick
The Trump The Trump administration is very happy to beat up on Denmark you know or Raddick Sikorsky, some some Europeans.
00:37:48
Nick
It loves to loves to beat up on Europeans. Canadians and Europeans are are the favorite target because they're basically proxy for domestic enemies.
00:37:51
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:37:55
Nick
like that like that's the That's the role that they really fulfill. yeah This is all polity. um
00:38:01
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I mean, i yeah that's that's definitely been the signature of the let of the Democrats historically, which is basing their foreign policy on who reminds them of domestic enemies.
00:38:13
Nick
but but i mean that's what but Well, that's why Denmark is always such a funny one, because ah you know it's it's just a sign how of how um America, neither left nor right, just they just don't understand Europe. And European politics do not map exactly to American politics, thank God.
00:38:28
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
true.
00:38:29
Nick
and And Denmark shows how you can actually have a social democratic ah led government ah but putting through anti-immigration measures ah that that the right wouldn't even dare push and in the in the States.
00:38:36
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:38:39
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:38:46
Nick
yeah for but far Far more radical, but much more along the lines of Singapore.
00:38:46
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:38:50
Nick
you it's basically what we will take We will take who we need and no ethnic enclaves.
00:38:50
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
right
00:38:55
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes. Yes. ah Yeah. that's i mean that's that that's That's definitely a fact. So you're bullish on Europe.
00:39:03
Nick
I'm bullish on Central Europe.
00:39:06
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Interesting. Okay, well, talk talk about that. why Why Central Europe specifically?
00:39:11
Nick
and because they Because Central Europe, these are still nations.
00:39:12
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And why not Western Europe?
00:39:19
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Okay.
00:39:19
Nick
Okay. and But paul but but but but but pope Poland is a nation.
00:39:20
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
So you are a nationalist.
00:39:24
Nick
you know Poland is 99% Polish, and they might have their vicious domestic political disputes, and and they are vicious, and but they will die rather than live under Russian occupation or under the shadow of Russian occupation.
00:39:28
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:39:35
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:39:40
Nick
ah
00:39:40
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:39:41
Nick
And if you want to solve the Europe's security issues, all you have to do is to put battlefield nuclear weapons in the hands of Polish armed forces.
00:39:53
Nick
but look but like like Seriously, that is all you have to do. It's not it's not that complicated. ah You have to put battlefield nuclear weapons in the hands of those that are willing to use them if they are ever overrun by Russian forces.
00:40:08
Nick
the the the The same... you you can apply the exact same ah order of battle that that applied ah in Europe from you know the 1950s on, which was that Western conventional forces were inferior and it was expected that Russian tanks would be able to ah would be able to defeat Western conventional forces.
00:40:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:40:30
Nick
And the instructions were that ah if the battalions were overrun, and that the commanders had the license to use nuclear weapons.
00:40:40
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yes
00:40:40
Nick
But it's not that complicated.
00:40:43
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
but No, I mean, you're you're you're absolutely right about the history of NATO, which is unpleasant and people don't talk about it, but because, you know, ah Russia had an, I think, 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 tank advantage, the the strategy was basically to start with nukes and go from there.
00:41:01
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
um
00:41:03
Nick
it was It was a tripwire.
00:41:04
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
In fact, yeah.
00:41:06
Nick
yeah but you're basically the The conventional forces were there as kind of sacrificial lambs.
00:41:09
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:41:10
Nick
ah and
00:41:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
To essentially create political capital
00:41:13
Nick
and No, i don't I don't know whether actually that Russian invasion would have been that successful ah um as was feared.
00:41:18
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:41:18
Nick
you know yeah I read there was a book by so General Sir John Hackett called The Third World War, which is basically exactly the scenario, ah except I think the um it was a conventional bombing rather than a a nuclear.
00:41:33
Nick
they they I think they avoided nukes. So it was just like massive conventional bombing of Russian concentrations. ah but it But it was basically the same plot line of a conventional war in which Russia wins until it becomes a nuclear exchange and then ah Russia collapses.
00:41:50
Nick
um that That was basically the the storyline. And I don't see why it's that different. you russia Russia is vulnerable. um i don't think I don't think the French should be responsible for the nukes.
00:42:01
Nick
I think that's asking France for too much. it's it's not it's not as vital a French national interest as it is a Polish national interest or a Ukrainian national interest or a Nordic interest.
00:42:13
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I mean, we've gone to war over Poland before.
00:42:13
Nick
And I...
00:42:15
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
you know you know the The issue there is that we hate when it's somebody else invading invading Poland.
00:42:17
Nick
that but
00:42:21
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Only us get to invade Poland.
00:42:24
Nick
I mean, I obviously think there needs to be a proper division of labor within within Europe. and They've talked about the coalition of the willing in Ukraine. I think that's the right way to go. um and yeah and yeah And Europe has other strategic responsibilities too.
00:42:33
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:42:37
Nick
um So you know i you need to leave the containment of Russia to Scandinavia, ah to Poland, to Romania, and to Turkey, ah ah the countries that are actually on the front line, that actually have vital national interests as state.
00:42:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Thank you.
00:42:55
Nick
ah yeah you need You need Romanian forces ah you know in the outskirts of Odessa, and you need Polish forces on the in Lviv.
00:43:05
Nick
and maybe that Maybe the Germans can play a role in Lithuania or something like that. um But France, I don't believe that France should actually have but ah forces in Ukraine.
00:43:16
Nick
it's It's too distant for a lot of people. you know let Let France worry about the Mediterranean. you know let Let France worry about the... you know France should be worrying about the sea lanes, the Red Sea sea lanes.
00:43:28
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:43:29
Nick
but like what what what Why is this ah yeah an American responsibility?
00:43:29
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes. Yes.
00:43:33
Nick
Vance is absolutely right. yeah Why is this an American responsibility? It should not be an American responsibility. It it should be a French and European responsibility.
00:43:43
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah. I mean, I, okay.
00:43:45
Nick
and are you is europe a serious Is Europe serious or not? yeah other
00:43:49
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I mean, that's a very real question. um and and And thus far, there are few indications that it is, although it may be shaken into seriousness but but by what's happening in Washington, which is why I actually fully support ah the the sort of Trump-Vence policy.
00:44:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah Because I think it's the only thing that can shake Europe out of its sort of post-historical torpor.
00:44:16
Nick
make Europe great again. They're going to make Europe great again.
00:44:18
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:44:21
Nick
going to make China great again. They're going to make Mexico great again. They're going to make China into the world's
00:44:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
I'm sorry.
00:44:32
Nick
preeminent power. This is not the Chinese century. This is the Chinese era that we are ah we are embarked upon. And yes, it would have happened anyway. And ah yes, you can actually blame Biden for a lot. you know He gave the bubble one last you know, ah one last ah push, one last puff. And here we are.
00:44:57
Nick
And poor Trump, ah poor, poor Trump is going to be the one ah holding this bag of excrement. to use the language of Marge and Cole.
00:45:10
Nick
yeah He's going to be the one on the holding the bag of excrement when when the music stops, which it is right now.
Future of Media and AI
00:45:17
Nick
um And yeah um' i wouldn't be surprised if he does feel bitter.
00:45:22
Nick
wouldn't be surprised if Vance does feel bitter. I wouldn't surprised if Marge does feel bitter that they've been, you basically landed the responsibility for this almighty mess that has been building for decades, at least a quarter of a century, probably a half of a century.
00:45:27
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
you
00:45:38
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Okay, so ah brutal transition, but we're ah we're heading towards the end of the hour. ah what What are your thoughts on the future of media and publishing?
00:45:48
Nick
and
00:45:51
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Because I know you're working on something in that area, and you're always ah one of the... the the the the most um the sharpest i was looking for the word the sharpest thinkers when it comes to how media operates and i know you've been sort of kind of unbind on this holy grail hunt for some kind of format or technology that allows us to have like the good bits of online publishing without the bad bits
00:46:25
Nick
look but My view is that this, but that we're doing right here now, is the future of media.
00:46:33
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Okay.
00:46:33
Nick
like Having a discussion about having a discussion about the timeline
00:46:33
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:46:36
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah
00:46:40
Nick
like The timeline that we're on ah the future timeline that we see, the the possible branches, the contingencies, the threads and the sub-threads.
00:46:51
Nick
So, you know, we we are you know currently, you know you and i having this discussion, we are in... some kind of intellectual maze, you know, there are turn-offs and, you know, and when you disagree with me, well, that's a branch in the logical structure of this, you know, this tree of knowledge on this particular topic.
00:47:06
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yes.
00:47:12
Nick
You know, the topic might be, you know, when is America going to devalue finally and stop messing around with all these tariffs and just recognize the fact ah that the dollar is just simply overvalued.
00:47:23
Nick
And equilibrium needs to be re equilibrium needs to be restored with a massive yeah upward valuation of the yuan and a devaluation of the dollar. like that's like that's That's my thesis.
00:47:39
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, I mean, well, so, okay. Uh...
00:47:43
Nick
Somebody just call.
00:47:48
Nick
So so anyway theres but my view is that dis this discussion is media. And you know the role of technology is really, and the things that I've spent a lot of time working on, is is how do you take this and kind of seemingly unstructured discussion that you and I are having ah and and how do you identify the underlying structure and then present it in a way that is more coherent.
00:48:12
Nick
you know an s
00:48:12
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Oh, that that is fascinating.
00:48:14
Nick
An essay with side essays.
00:48:17
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And is there AI involved in that?
00:48:19
Nick
Well, yeah, obviously AI, if you do it once manually, then the AI can repeat the process automatically. It learns very quickly. And the AI understands threading naturally.
00:48:32
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:48:33
Nick
So the the AI thinks like an outliner.
00:48:33
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:48:36
Nick
It tries to output ah as an outliner. yeah it It thinks in structured terms. It understands forums. It understands Twitter. It understands outlines. It understands structured documents more than it understands ah andru unstructured data.
00:48:51
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:48:52
Nick
So so if but so if you if you brief an AI with a proper yes you give it a proper structured briefing, it will be able to interact much more intelligently on this topic.
00:49:04
Nick
you know It will answer your questions more ah more and intelligently and more astutely. It will seem to begin with the body of knowledge that you have yourself accumulated just by the very act of laying it all all down in a structured form as essays with branching Sub essays.
00:49:22
Nick
So actually, the the media, as in the essay, and let's say, um you know which is kind of the the the fully fashioned form of the media, is an incredibly valuable thing because it is nothing more than a trading memo.
00:49:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:49:38
Nick
you know it's it's basic It's basically and an argument for taking a certain position ah which can always be traded. There's always a trading expression of any but any position that you have.
00:49:49
Nick
So if you believe that the ah Trump administration, Musk, Vance and Trump are all caught in an online vortex from which they cannot ah release themselves without a crisis, if you believe that, well then you have some trades to make, you know maybe some puts on the dollar.
00:50:06
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:50:09
Nick
deep out of the money puts on the dollar, for instance. um So ah what what is me?
00:50:15
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Well, yeah I'm de facto along the dollar given that my company is based in the US.
00:50:16
Nick
Well,
00:50:20
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
So, you know.
00:50:21
Nick
but so you should be hedging yourself right now. yeah yeah
00:50:25
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah Right after I leave this conversation.
00:50:27
Nick
Yeah, you you used to be you should be hedging all your future income streams because they won't be worth they won't be worth as much in euros. um So yeah, you you should be trading. ah Everybody should be trading.
00:50:38
Nick
I mean, Joe Weisenty of Bloomberg, super smart guy, has been on to the China story before I was.
00:50:44
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:50:45
Nick
um
00:50:45
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
he i mean He's one of the smartest people I know.
00:50:48
Nick
Oh, he's there he's incredibly smart. um what what are his he He's in index funds. He just like leaves it. He sits there. He says, I'm a terrible trader. I mean, what he actually is, is unfortunately, he's a staff.
00:50:58
Nick
I mean, he's got Bloomberg relationship, and I guess they don't allow people to be trading.
00:51:03
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Oh.
00:51:04
Nick
um but sir but But that's a tragedy, you know, because here you have somebody who's absolutely early to you know every important market story and and should absolutely be making ah yeah making big bucks for his insight.
00:51:12
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:51:21
Nick
yeah And he's still collecting a salary. Yeah.
00:51:26
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Well, I mean, i you know, i'll
00:51:30
Nick
but put your money where your Put your money where your mouth is.
00:51:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
you should.
00:51:32
Nick
That's what I say.
Media Transparency and Legacy
00:51:34
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Well, I mean, the problem...
00:51:34
Nick
ah the But those tech those take guys, but but the tech guys, their strongest criticism of the tech journalists, you know whom they ah courted, they loved, and then they hated.
00:51:44
Nick
Well, they certainly hated anything and that was remotely critical. yeah They wanted blowjobs all the way. um But the thing they always used to say was, well, they don't have skin in the game.
00:51:56
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Right.
00:51:56
Nick
yeah You can't take them seriously because they don't have skin in the game. Well, okay, bitch, I go skin in the game, all right? I go skin in the game. I go puts on that Apple and Tesla and on LOM, BYD and Xiaomi. Okay, how you like that?
00:52:13
Nick
How you like that for a portfolio? Argue with that.
00:52:15
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Is that literally true?
00:52:17
Nick
Yes, that's literally true. but Everything I say is literally true.
00:52:22
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Okay.
00:52:22
Nick
okay
00:52:23
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Uh,
00:52:24
Nick
Okay, as a good that's a good note to end on.
00:52:27
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah, we we have a final question that we end every ah every interview with, which is recommend a book.
00:52:27
Nick
Okay. we have a Uh-huh.
00:52:33
Nick
which recommend
00:52:34
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
It can be any book, fiction, nonfiction, old, new, as long as it's not in your area of expertise.
00:52:38
Nick
not Foundation, Isaac Asimov.
00:52:43
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Excellent recommendation.
00:52:44
Nick
and Essential to understanding the modern world.
00:52:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Are you The Mule or are you har Harry Seldon?
00:52:48
Nick
Yeah.
00:52:51
Nick
Oh, I don't know. ah um I was just having a discussion. Apparently, Asimov based the character of ah the mule or the historical arc on time Tamerlane.
00:53:04
Nick
So, you know, Mongol invader who basically had no real...
00:53:06
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:07
Nick
no real lasting impact who kind of came and went, you know, a but a barbarian blip. um
00:53:14
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah
00:53:14
Nick
so it's so maybe So maybe the barbarian blip is actually the United States, you know, it's like, it's basically a, but but from a chinese from a Chinese perspective, you know, from the perspective of the Middle Kingdom, you know, of, you know, however many thousands of years of of dynastic cycles, you know, and then you have, know, these barbarian kingdoms, which you usually get absorbed, you know,
00:53:34
Nick
The Manchus got absorbed, king got absorbed. ah So the the barbarian kingdoms usually get absorbed by the Middle Kingdom.
00:53:37
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Sure.
00:53:41
Nick
And they you know they form the new aristocratic strata and then intermarry until they ah disappear into the Han majority.
00:53:45
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
true
00:53:50
Nick
um but but the But the United States or or the Anglo-American empire, know let's but you know it's that's that That was basically a barbarian kingdom that happened to invent ah the steam engine.
00:54:04
Nick
um and And then took it from there, conquered a continent, and established dominance for, um i guess the rise was what?
00:54:10
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:16
Nick
The rise was maybe 400 years from, 1600. so sixteen hundred The Anglo-Ryse.
00:54:20
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah
00:54:21
Nick
Let's say Elizabeth. think Elizabeth the 1575 something like that.
00:54:22
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
yeah
00:54:25
Nick
Right through it wasn't 2025. It might have appeared to be 2000. Let's say 1600 to 2000. Anglo-American kingdom.
00:54:33
Nick
ah right through to but it wasn't twenty twenty five it might have appeared to be two thousand let's say let's say sixteen
00:54:41
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
was a good run.
00:54:42
Nick
sixteen hundred to two thousand ah the but the angloamerican barbarian kingdom
00:54:50
Nick
but It was ah um an amazing run. it it was it was it was the mule. It it it basically broke it it broke the pattern of history. It broke the cycle of of empires in China. It broke the Chinese cycle.
00:55:03
Nick
It was the event that broke the Chinese cycle and hurtled China into the modern age. um So, i mean, I guess a little bit like the black ships of Nagasaki. um
00:55:13
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:55:14
Nick
and So just like a ah a a um ah shock of modernity. You know, when all these like little powers, Japan and Germany and France and the United States, and they're all setting up concessions, and they're all their extraterritorial privileges yeah know in in your great cities.
00:55:34
Nick
ah Yeah, that's a century of humiliation. And and ah like that that will knock you off your your course. that will That will knock the cycles off their pattern.
00:55:48
Nick
and so And so, you know, the the the but the Anglo-American barbarians basically pushed China into the AI age.
00:55:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:55:56
Nick
It pushed China into the intoplanet into a ah it was the beginning of the interplanetary civilization. ah yeah Despite the mars whatever Mars colony Elon Musk may be able to establish, you know this is it is China that is going into space.
00:56:15
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Well, on that note,
00:56:15
Nick
Well, on that note...
00:56:20
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
well, we I mean, that's that's an investable bet.
00:56:20
Nick
Well, I don't... that's that's an investment
00:56:23
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
So we'll see in 10 years who makes it to Mars first.
00:56:23
Nick
so get the
00:56:27
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah Anyway, Nick and...
00:56:30
Nick
i think i I actually think that's so but's ah that's a sell of SpaceX bet, actually.
00:56:31
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:56:36
Nick
Because i think I think Musk is absolutely serious about the Mars ah about the mas voyage.
00:56:39
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Yeah.
00:56:40
Nick
ah like Do not take this as being hype. He's absolutely serious. That is his exit option. from disappointment on Earth to be the first leader of the Mars colony. like He wants to make that happen.
00:56:54
Nick
And that's actually very bad for SpaceX stock because ah it's much less profitable than launching satellites. That's neat.
00:57:00
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
that's That's certainly true. ah All right, we're at the end of the hour.
00:57:04
Nick
All right. We're the end the Thank you
00:57:05
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
nick Denton, thank you so much for your time. You're always one of the most interesting people in the world to talk to with a unique perspective.
00:57:12
Nick
talk the Fed there.
00:57:14
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And thank you especially for talking about the history of thought of Gawker, which is a sensitive topic, and for having a fresh perspective on current economics and geopolitics.
00:57:25
Nick
it actually It actually sounds like i maybe this is therapy for me because it it actually wasn't, it it it didn't feel sensitive to me at all. i was like it was actually kind of quite fun to talk about.
00:57:35
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Good, good. I've wanted to have that conversation with you for I don't know how long.
00:57:38
Nick
wanted
00:57:41
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
So I i was certainly very happy to do it.
00:57:44
Nick
you know and Maybe maybe i was actually ah happy to have that conversation too. um you like like a lot of A lot of people on the right have really misunderstood me. ah and but i means Seriously, I don't blame them because they were yeah seeing me as the publisher of this you know a group of writers, many of whom they hated deeply.
00:58:03
Nick
um But so i feel I feel like by There isn't that much difference between me and Peter Thiel in terms of like what we were ah seeking to achieve.
00:58:14
Nick
And yeah, I guess my tool was transparency and yeah his was secrecy.
00:58:17
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Thank you.
00:58:18
Nick
So there there is a big big difference there. um But I think the objectives were you pretty much the same. And maybe the despair with America is pretty much the same now.
00:58:30
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Maybe, maybe. i don't i don't know. ah But I mean, the the the parallels do sort of, you know, right themselves, right?
00:58:35
Nick
the
00:58:39
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
And that's that's certainly ah a fascinating aspect of that story, which is why one day i want to ah get both of you around a table.
00:58:48
Nick
Okay, well, I'm in.
00:58:48
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
ah
00:58:52
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
All right. Well, after after I do this, I'm i'm sending a ah a ah a bottle into the sea.
00:59:01
Nick
see you later.
00:59:03
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Thank you.
00:59:04
Nick
Thank you.
00:59:04
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
Goodbye.
00:59:04
Nick
Bye.