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Leading with Logic: Cultivating a Culture of Accountability and Genuine Care
61 Plays1 year ago
In this insightful podcast discussion, Brent Oberlink, Tucker Willms, and Travis May discuss the dynamics of effective leadership. Join us as we explore the significance of leading with logic, nurturing genuine care for team members, and fostering a culture of accountability. From personal anecdotes to practical insights, discover how to empower individuals to take ownership, communicate effectively, and drive positive change within their teams.
Gain valuable strategies for navigating tough conversations, developing core values, and building a cohesive, high-performing team. Whether you're a seasoned leader or aspiring to enhance your leadership skills, this conversation offers invaluable wisdom and actionable tips to inspire and empower.
#Leadership #Accountability #TeamCulture #EffectiveCommunication #PersonalDevelopment #GenuineCare #PodcastDiscussion #ProfessionalGrowth #Empowerment #TeamBuilding #LeadershipSkills #TheBetterContractorPodcast #landscapingpodcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Welcome
00:00:11
Speaker
All right, guys. Welcome back to another edition of The Better Contractor. Today, I am joined again by Tucker Williams with Arrow Valley. Hey, Tucker. Hey, man. And Travis. I'm not going to do a nickname for you today, Travis. I don't like the T-Raz. I got to think about this. It makes me think of toasted ravioli. Exactly, but kind of Tucker's like, yeah. Yeah. It makes me extra delicious.
00:00:40
Speaker
So we definitely got to come up with one for you though. But Travis, thank you for joining today. Always a pleasure.
Defining Effective Leadership
00:00:48
Speaker
So today, you know, we're going to talk a little bit more about being the leader that people need. So again, this could be inside of your company. It could be inside of your family. There's so many areas. Leadership is not just a leader of a company, the CEO of a company. All of us are leaders in some aspect to the circle that's around us, to our family, to coworkers or whatever.
00:01:09
Speaker
but being the leader that people need and then what are the qualities of an effective leader. So I kind of wrote a few things down to kind of just kick this off, but actually caring about your people. You know, there's a lot of leaders today that they come across as really only self-serving, like I'm doing this for myself to either climb the ladder at this corporation, or I am doing this for myself to grow my company. And while that is important, because you have to grow your company,
00:01:37
Speaker
You need to actually care about your people and that's what will build that culture. That's what will get people to stay, that people will want to actually work and perform for you. Demand more from people and stop being afraid to be honest. I see so many people who are afraid to actually demand excellence, demand more. And I see so many people who are afraid to have those honest conversations. Now, the honest conversations does not mean go be a complete butt to someone. That's not what that means.
00:02:05
Speaker
But it means if somebody is failing, that you're not afraid to have an open and direct but respectful conversation. And there's some emotional intelligence and some learning as a leader that you should be doing on how to have that conversation. Being a vision setter. As the leader in your family, as you're at work, if you aren't setting a vision, then you're not really being a leader. Your goal should be to set a vision for the family or your group or your company. Be the example for others.
00:02:35
Speaker
You know, I still think one of the best ways to lead is by example, because at the end of the day, as a leader, you have to get buy-in. And if you're not getting buy-in from your people, you can say all day long what you want to have accomplished or what to have them do. But if they don't think that you will do it yourself, or if they don't respect you because you aren't living life a certain way, then they're probably not going to follow you very far.
Vision and Action in Leadership
00:03:03
Speaker
They'll follow you until they find a new job.
00:03:05
Speaker
or whatever, but you got to be that example for others and then be outspoken on what matters, what needs to be done and then take action. I see a lot of people that don't do that part either, but they're not taking action on that vision or they're not setting out the goals to get there. So anyway, just to kind of start this off and start the creative juices flowing. So I was kind of curious, like what do you guys, have you guys had a leader in your life that like really, really stood out?
00:03:34
Speaker
And if so, what was some traits, what was some things that they stood out differently than others to you? I would go to consistency. You always knew what you're going to get from them. It wasn't an emotional roller coaster. You know how you go into them. You know how at least how they would respond emotionally and usually with sound judgment, but never having to wonder. Is this a bad time to come to them type of thing? I mean, that was something big that came up to me.
Emotional Intelligence and Leadership
00:04:04
Speaker
I like that point. There's one of the, trying to remember which one it is, on the better contractor, on the leadership portion, where it talks a little bit about that. And it's having the EQ, emotional intelligence portion, as a leader to where in the moment of conflict or in the moment of a disaster or something bad having happened, you know, you see this a lot in like military type environments, but it's also the same thing in a business environment.
00:04:32
Speaker
you should be the person that has a little bit of resolve, that is a little bit steady, you know, in those times of stress, and that can calmly bring people to a point of comfort, even though they know there's something bad happening right now, we got to work through it. But bringing that
00:04:53
Speaker
down to a level and then being conscious about, hey, this is how we're going to get through this. Now, as a group, there is a solution. There is a path forward and calmly communicating that. Like you said, I see a lot of people, their first reactions emotion, which is fine internally.
00:05:12
Speaker
but you can't as a leader immediately let that be what you lead with. Because then you're going to create chaos with all the people that are watching you for, hey, what's going on right now? What are we doing? They're looking to you. And if you look like you're a wreck, you're going to create a lot of chaos in your organization. So I do like that one, but that goes to even just daily stuff. Like do they, do you bring, you know, the stuff from home to work every day?
00:05:35
Speaker
If the answer is yes, you're probably going to be a slightly chaotic leader that people don't know. Hey, am I getting Tucker number one today or Tucker number two today? I don't really know which one's coming to work. Yeah, so you want to be someone who has figured out a little bit of that EQ and who can lead with the logic versus not that emotion doesn't matter. It does, but you need to lead with the logic. Gosh, an example in my life, I think the earliest point I remember really having to focus on this exactly was
00:06:04
Speaker
I don't know, middle school football. I was the quarterback at the time. The football coach we had, Coach Bradley, he is amazing. I mean, he was just one of those guys that, you know, Coach Prime and Deon Sanders, he says, send me your boys and I'll send you back men. That was kind of how Coach Bradley was.
00:06:19
Speaker
And I remember this game, I had thrown my fourth interception of the game. And so to say it was a bad game for me was an understatement. And I came back to sideline crying. I was so mad at myself, not like I was a pity party for myself. And he grabbed me by the face mask and drug me down the sideline away from everybody else and got two inches from me. And he said, if you continue to act like this, I don't want you on my sideline. He said, because you are setting the tone for the rest of the team, your emotions dictate everyone else that's under you and following you. He said, so get it together.
00:06:49
Speaker
And then from then on, it really clicked. Hey, I can't be in my own head. All these guys are feeding off of me. So young age that hit home. And ever since then, it's been big for me.
Building Genuine Relationships
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. And people, you don't realize that, you know, that's a sports environment there, but it is so true, especially in leadership, but not even just in leadership, but your mental state and how you're acting, you know, that does play into your team's bunch.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you especially see it in sports because you can just visually watch all of the people. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that's, that's true in literally everything. I mean, if you're leading an organization and you're a rec, the people underneath you, you know, if they're not a rec, they're going to think they should be, or like, what is going on? So yeah. Yeah. Emotions are impactful. So I mean, you're, the logic kind of comes maybe behind the emotion that you portray in that,
00:07:47
Speaker
for better or worse, in the sense that your emotions will translate to the people with what you're saying. So if you're crying, upset, fear resonates, fear spreads, so is confidence. I think Tucker probably knows this one, but one of my favorite podcasts is Ed Mylett, and he has a saying, I probably butchered it just a little bit, but basically that your emotions should comment
00:08:13
Speaker
and logic should command. So when something happens your logic is what should be commanding your actions and the emotions should be in the background providing a commentary because at the end of the day we are dealing with other people so you can't be emotionless but you got to kind of use the logic first let the emotions have some comment but don't let them be what you lead with and I think looking at one of the points here to genuine care for people so I've always kind of viewed as a leader when it comes to the work the vision
00:08:41
Speaker
when it's chaotic, when pooh hits the fan, whatever, that is when you have to lead with that logic. When you can lead with some of the emotion, I think, is when you're having maybe a one-on-one moment with someone and you're wanting to connect. That is, to me, that's when that emotion comes in. Not too too much, but that's where you can actually have that human connection where you get to know that individual a little bit more and they actually feel like, you know what, we're not just work only,
00:09:07
Speaker
This leader actually cares about my personal life, about my family, about my goals, my interests in life is not just about them. So I think we can kind of tie that into that genuine care for people by using the emotion a little bit more on that side. But in the work environment, just we're getting stuff done. We're accomplishing the goals we set forth. Then that really needs to be a lot more of the logic and the visionary and the person who's strategizing how to get to a certain point.
00:09:34
Speaker
People think, so I know I've had good and bad leaders all throughout my career. And the ones that you genuinely know care about you, and you can see it in their teams too, where they care about their people at a personal level. They care about who they are at work, as well as outside. They generally care about them as a human, creates that culture, that familial aspect where it's then reciprocated to you. But if it's not genuine,
00:10:05
Speaker
people see it and if people think like, hey, I'll do this little checklist and ask, hey, how's the family? Okay, cool, cool, cool. All right, so here's what the, they think that the superficial component of checking the box of like, I'm fainting that I care about you and that it's covered in that people won't see through that, people do.
00:10:33
Speaker
people see your genuineness. Regardless of how good of acting you perform, people will see it. And you think you're getting away with it, you're not. But all those organizations, people will do way more for those that they care about, they love, they share common interests, they share common care with, and those teams that you really see high performing, there's typically an element of that where it's a brotherhood.
00:11:02
Speaker
they care about each other beyond just whatever tasks in front of them. And typically, that's always from the leader down. And that oftentimes is a differentiation between a lot of the high performing teams, regardless of the industry. It really is. And I think hiring people that
00:11:22
Speaker
So like as your team gets more complex or larger, you know, for the leader at the top, it becomes a little bit more difficult for that to flow all the way through to the end. And I think, you know, for the companies of that size, then it becomes even more critical. That is you're promoting and you're hiring people for that, you know, whatever management leadership position that there are people that also exhibit those characteristics. You know, so I see a lot of companies and I've been guilty of this at times as well, promoting people into a position because they're good at a lot of things.
00:11:52
Speaker
But they're not necessarily good at that connection level. So even though I view myself decent at that, the team that I directly supervise, for the most part, we're a pretty tight-knit group that gets along. We can go do dinner. I know the family. I know the kids. And we care deeply about them. We lost one this past year. And it was tough on the whole team because it was like a family member had passed.
00:12:18
Speaker
You know what I mean? And like, we still stay in contact with people, you know, related to it. And because we actually cared, you know, if we didn't care, it'd be, you know, we'll, we'll rehire and move on. But that's not what it was. And I look at like, you know, our management staff, you know, at work, you know, and it's, it's so much different now than it was like at a job I had previously worked before I started Atlantic work. You know, there was none of that there. Like, I felt like people came and went.
00:12:46
Speaker
Nobody really felt a connection to anybody, you know what I mean? And that does completely change that culture. Yeah, having that genuine care and like Travis said, people will see through that. If it's not genuine and it looks like you're just checking a box, people's going to pick up on it. And in this environment with a super, super competitive labor market, people don't want to work at that company and guess what? They don't have to anymore.
00:13:11
Speaker
So if you're, if you're a company or a business owner listening to this and you don't have that part figured out and your employee retention is terrible, you might want to look inward a little bit and see how you can do better at connecting with people genuinely. And it's, it's, it's truly caring about them. Like it, it's not a technique. It's truly seeing your people as human and the work environment that you create for them.
00:13:38
Speaker
if it's a positive one that's uplift will impact their home life. They will take a bad work environment and a bad experience home with them that will impact the relationships outside of work, which then potentially spirals that into a negative experience, which then it's this reciprocal thing where they bring it back to work with them the next day. So it can have this spiraling effect of downward returns or just a negative environment
00:14:07
Speaker
But yeah, you weigh impact just because it's a job and you're the boss, you impact way beyond that. And that can have cascading effects in their career or in other things. So yeah, don't underestimate the value that one person has, even though it's maybe a business relationship, you have impact way beyond that, on the lives. And you even take it beyond that, the wife, maybe the wife had,
00:14:38
Speaker
If it was a boy or a girl or a man or a woman in your employee, yeah, but they take it home, their spouse, and they take a negative attitude environment back home, that impacts not only your employee, but then their spouse and their spouse takes that and maybe that transfers over to the kids. And if they have kids and the kids have a bad day at school, they're like just, yeah, you have a huge responsibility to care about your people. I mean, whether you see it or that or not,
00:15:06
Speaker
It kind of takes me to my next point very well, Travis, which is being the example. So a lot of people will think in a business setting that being the example basically means, let's say you're a landscape company. So being the example would be, I'm getting out there with my people and doing the work with them. I see a lot of people that think that is what that means. That's a part of it, but that is not all of it. So to me, being the example, and it goes back to true leadership,
00:15:33
Speaker
You should be being the example as a human being, how you treat others. So how you treat the, the, the customer when they're there, how you treat the other crew members, the respect that you give people, um, how you live your life. So if you're like a traveling crew, which a lot of ours Atlanta corporate traveling crew, so they stay the night in a hotel somewhere are what kind of life are you living after hours? Are you living an example life then, or are you a completely different person when the clock's turned off? So how do you treat your wife and kids?
00:16:03
Speaker
When you're traveling like that, are you having an affair or are you actually being faithful to your life? So there's all these different things that this being an example actually means. And I think when you're the leader that actually lives a life that other people want to follow, you gain so much respect just by that action that you can actually lead them in ways that other people can never, never could. So I want to challenge some of you like being the example again, doesn't just mean I go do the work with you.
00:16:29
Speaker
It means that I am a person that is living a life worthy of your respect. So that's to me is what that actually means. I see tougher. I see your juices flowing there, man. Oh, yeah, man. Yeah, I think it's a whole 360 approach to how you live. It's like you can't just be the guy at work that has great ideas and you motivate him in the morning.
00:16:51
Speaker
before they go off to their job sites, it's gotta be, they've gotta see, I mean, we've talked about fitness before, they've gotta see it on the fitness side, they gotta see it on your relationship side, the way you treat your wife, they gotta see it how you're involved in the community, they gotta see it how you treat clients whenever, you know, they gotta see it all over. They really need to see how you respond in bad situations like we talked to, we'll talk about it in the beginning.
00:17:14
Speaker
I don't think you can be, I don't think you can be failing in one area and still be somebody that your team should be looking up to or you know what I mean? I mean, yeah, they'll look up to you, but not to your fullest potential. So I think it, I think it matters everything you do.
Leadership Beyond Work
00:17:29
Speaker
Yeah. And I agree with that. I think looking, listening back to the last podcast, uh, that we shot with you Tucker, you know, we talked about, you know, making an impact. So that goes back to the same point being the example, you should be making an impact as a leader of your group.
00:17:44
Speaker
that they are actually a better spouse at home. Maybe they actually are taking fitness seriously now because of your example.
00:17:52
Speaker
Maybe they're a better father or mother because of your example or how you treat others. Maybe they decided to mentor a kid or a teen or another adult because of the impact they saw that you made on someone else. So it's being an example and a leader in that regard where you're elevating people just because of the life that you're living.
00:18:16
Speaker
Gosh, that is like my number one goal. If I don't even care about landscaping that much in the sense of I would, if I can have everyone on our team go home and be a better version of themselves for their families, then, then I've succeeded. Like if that is, if I know that they're having a better home life, because not necessarily, not necessarily just because they're getting paid more, but because their mental state's better because they're seeing what it looks like to be a leader, to keep your word
00:18:44
Speaker
to work hard, all of those things. If they're taking that home with them, that is why I do it. I want to build a company, a premium brand that attracts premium talent, that pays our guys a premium price, but then that they have pride in everything they do, including their relationships. And so they're just all around great people. Finances of money have to be there when they have to pay for bills and create the quality of life. Or if it's in disarray, it's going to manifest in different ways.
Ethical Leadership and Business Success
00:19:11
Speaker
But you create that type of environment where you're building those people up
00:19:15
Speaker
I think it'd be hard pressed to say that that's not going to materialize in the business where the clients are happier, the work product is better, the team's more working more efficiently, you're making more money, the brand and the reputation. So that almost foundational can lead to everything else too. And without that, it will be really tough to create that profitable business where the
00:19:41
Speaker
the ethical, the leadership, the character of the environment is cancerous or, or deteriorating. That's the foundation, essentially, that it will be really tough to build something on top of it. Where you build that foundation, the rest of it likely will come. Exactly. Yeah, I think tying to that, one of our other points with this was being a vision setter. You know, so
00:20:08
Speaker
being the example people look up to, but then also realizing inside of your family or inside of, especially at work, most people want to be a part of something that is growing, that is getting better, that is getting bigger. They want to be a part of a more of like a movement. So, you know, I think the other part of being an effective leader is also being one who can set a vision in a way that inspires other people. And inside of that vision, you know, going back to something Ed Mylett had said earlier, you need to be able to set a vision that's so big that
00:20:38
Speaker
your people's visions can fit inside of it on a corporate level. So if you're setting a really small vision and everybody's like, so I'm pretty much capped out where I'm at then basically is what you're telling me. You shouldn't be setting those type of vision. Now you can't set a false vision. It needs to actually be something you can accomplish and you plan to accomplish, but you need to be able to set a vision, but then you got to be the leader that actually gets it done. So if you just are constantly setting visions all day long,
00:21:04
Speaker
But at the end of the day, everybody's like, yeah, I set one last year too and we didn't hit any of it. Then you become a bad leader because people don't trust you to actually see it through. So you got to set a vision and then actually execute on that vision and hold people accountable to it. But I think that vision setting is a crucial part of all of that as well. And the vision setting motivates me to be a better version of myself because I'll set these visions. And quite frankly, I'm not sure I do a great job
00:21:32
Speaker
I know I don't share it at sharing everything that's in my head with the team of where the business is going. I know they know they can see we're blowing up with growth. They can see we're expanding and doing great things, but my head it's a hundred times more than what I've said. And so that's on me, but where I'm going with this is I think, gosh, I think if
00:21:56
Speaker
If they could see what I see, which is my job to show them, they would be even more motivated than they are right now just to be better themselves. That drives me because if I'm not living up to the person I need to be to get the company to where it needs to be, then they'll never achieve their potential through the company. It pushes me when I set these big goals to better myself, to be that person for other people.
00:22:23
Speaker
whether this is an internal problem or not, I don't know, but like I need an external weight pushing on me to make myself better. And so if I can tie that to other people's success, I'll skyrocket. And so that's what I've been trying to do. I like that. It's kind of building a culture of achievement too, you know, within your organization and the people around you.
Culture of Achievement
00:22:41
Speaker
So, and that's personally and professionally. So if you're constantly pushing that, hey, we're going to get better,
00:22:47
Speaker
at work, we're going to get better in our fitness. We're going to get better in all these different areas. If you can build a culture around that where everybody's kind of holding each other accountable to an extent and everybody's building up, that's where your culture comes from, the side of anything, an organization, your family, whatever. That's where that culture of greatness comes from is having a leader that's pushing that culture, then having all these people all of a sudden start to become more competitive that, hey, we're going to get to this level and we're going to hold each other accountable.
00:23:16
Speaker
Which then kind of goes into, we talked earlier about being transparent and honest, you know, as a leader. And that's something I've seen inside of our organization, other organizations where some people just have a tough time with those honest conversations. But you need to be real with yourself that as a leader, you're not only there to motivate, to set a vision for all the good side. You're also there when someone's failing,
00:23:45
Speaker
you owe it to your team to either bring that person up or remove that person from the team. Because otherwise, if you don't, that's going to be a cancer inside that team. And all of a sudden, that culture of achievement and all of that will start to suffer a lot. So having those direct conversations and open conversations is something probably for some people that's the toughest part of leadership or management is having those conversations. And I would challenge you on that to actually
00:24:14
Speaker
try to find books, read, self-improve upon that because there is a way to do it. If the person completely is like, they did something that's so just terrible and there's really no coming back, then you just need to remove them. But that's normally not the case with most people. Most people, it was something that gradually built up to a certain level. They got a bad thing in their mind. They got a little animosity against another employee or whatever it is.
00:24:40
Speaker
that someone didn't deal with along the way. Like people knew their mindset was changing, but they allowed it to get to a level eight instead of realizing that level two or three and then saying, hey, Tucker, come here a second. Let's talk about this. But there's a proper way to pull that person aside out of respect, to have that conversation with them where you actually help that person a lot of times, depending on the situation. It's obviously depends on the situation. But if you can go to them and say, hey, I know from the last time we met,
00:25:10
Speaker
These are the goals that you had for yourself, professionally, personally, whatever it is. And as your leader and as someone I hope that you respect, I need to have an honest conversation with you and say you're a little bit off track. And I care about you. If I didn't care about you, I would just let you do it and I'll find somebody else to replace you. But I actually care about you. So I'm having this tough conversation with you.
00:25:35
Speaker
and call it out and then follow it up with what can I, as your leader, do for you to help get this back on track because I want to see you succeed. That is a completely different way to deal with that situation than what some people think it embodies. You know, it doesn't mean pull the person, don't pull the person aside and call them out in front of the whole group and saying, Hey, you pretty much suck right now. You got to get your stuff together. That's a completely different way because it doesn't show you number one, you care about them.
00:26:04
Speaker
You called them out in front of people, you disrespected them. So there's a right and a wrong way to do it. But I think leaders have to be able to have those conversations, be comfortable with them and excel at giving them. And when you can do that, then you also are building even more respect and trust with your group because they know, Hey, he's not just the fluffy leader. He will hold me accountable. He does have a standard. And if I don't meet it, then we're going to have a one-on-one conversation.
00:26:30
Speaker
And I think that's hugely important. That's something a lot of people are not comfortable with. But you got to get comfortable with it. Right. I couldn't agree more. Man, I just want to brag on two of our guys from yesterday. I was at the job site doing a job walk and talking about accountability. This plays in. There was an issue on the current job. We're not a big one at all, just a very small one. But the leader of the foreman of the crew, I asked him about the issue. And he brought it up to me. He's like, I take full responsibility for this. It was my mistake. And he said, we fixed it by doing this.
00:27:00
Speaker
And then I brought up another issue from a job, the previous, or a very small one, but still a job on the previous issue. And we recently had one guy take another job. And usually the issue that we had was usually that guy's job. And so I expected them to blame it on this, the guy that left. But another guy on the cruise piped up and said, no, it wasn't him. It was my mistake. I was the one who did that. And just right there, that made me probably more proud than
00:27:30
Speaker
Then, then I realized it would, because that guy took accountability for something that he very easily could have passed off. And I would have never known. And it's just knowing that those guys on our team got to be cultivating the new guys that are coming in is just, it's priceless. Oh yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of the honesty and transparency too, is also fessing up. I was like, Hey, I thought this was right. I messed up and I owe it to you guys. I wouldn't apologize to you guys.
00:27:56
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. I think that's huge. But another point, point of what you just said though, too, is you're utilizing, so training obviously can encompass, you know, me doing the training or someone else doing the training, but it also can encompass what you just said, where you've created a culture that's strong enough now to where your people are honestly doing a little bit of the training for the new hire anyway, by culture. So they're saying, Hey, we have an expectation. We have a code. We have a standard.
00:28:23
Speaker
Right. And this is what it looks like to work on a, on our job site. This is what it looks like. And that's training. Whether you know it, you know, what, what you think it is or not, that is training. Yeah. Yeah. Very important. Yeah. Um, so being outspoken of what matters, I've seen, I think we talked a little bit before we started recording about, you know, the people's like, I'm gonna be honest with you when really all they're doing there is just basically saying, I'm getting ready to be a butthole, butthole to you. And I'm letting you know upfront.
00:28:51
Speaker
That's not what we want.
Core Values and Integrity
00:28:53
Speaker
Like when we talk about being outspoken and honest. Um, again, you've got to have the emotional intelligence when you deal with a group of people. Um, so don't be that dude, you know, which I'm not saying that that was, but I did my notes to make sure we, we clarify between the two because there's so much of that out there for people are used to saying that and people's like, eh, okay. He just gave himself permission to basically tell me off. So yeah, this doesn't be fun. Yeah.
00:29:20
Speaker
So, so another thing, like whenever I'm thinking of, you know, a lot of companies have core values, I I've struggled. We have core values, but I've struggled with like what to include in them. And I heard a quote. I don't remember where it was or YouTube somewhere. I'm sure the guy said your values are what you're willing to lose money over.
00:29:40
Speaker
And it stuck with me. I mean, it's like, okay, every single one of the core values that we have are we'd lose money over them for sure, uh, to make sure that they're right. But just, just going into teaching your guys, teaching your team, it's like, what is the most important thing? And then if it really is like, you would be willing to lose money over if it came down to lose money or, or not follow through with it. So I think that's been huge. Just that little phrase, your values are what you're willing to lose money over.
00:30:08
Speaker
Yeah, I've not really heard of them quite like that. I know internally, we've always kind of practiced that you basically make your decisions by those. So you hire, you fire, you're getting ready to make kind of a tough decision. You make sure it follows your core values. And I know how we kind of picked them was we look back and the company was at its infantile stage and it blew up. What were some of the things that made it what it was at that time? Because at that time it was me and like one or two other people.
00:30:34
Speaker
but it has such success early on and it's like, well, what, what was that a tribute to? Well, for us, it was being people for a word, you know, so if we messed up on a job, even though I didn't have any money at the time, we did our darndest to make that right. Even if it meant we went in the hole and we didn't have the money to go in the hole back then. Yeah. And it was being honest. So if I told you, Hey, I'm giving you, I'm going to get you a quote tomorrow by five. Guess what? I'm getting you a quote tomorrow by five. I'm not going to be that company that's like,
00:31:02
Speaker
the very next day. Hey, you forgot to send me that quote last night. Oh, shoot. Yeah, I forgot. I'll get it to you.
00:31:08
Speaker
We want to be people of our word on everything, you know, whether that's we're showing up minus a weather issue or equipment issue. We're going to be there. We're going to do the job. We're going to do it per the scope of work. Uh, anyway, I'm getting a little bit off tangent, but I think that's important though, that your core value should play into this too, because again, that goes back to the respect. Your core value should be something that you're living. And then you live that in front of your people, thus the respect, but you're also building that culture of achievement and that culture around those core values.
00:31:36
Speaker
Yeah, like it goes over into training and culture on the team. Like whatever, I mean, this isn't the way we were to, but one of our core values, essentially, we're gonna do it right no matter how long it takes or what it takes. We're not gonna cut corners. Because a lot of things that we build and do, there's a lot of ways to cut corners underground and behind things that you would never see until it's an issue and the thing's failing. And so we've vowed we were never gonna cut corners in that regard. And sometimes, since we're still so young and since in the business,
00:32:07
Speaker
It wasn't bid totally correctly to account for X, Y, or Z. And so it goes back to what you'll lose money over. We have to make the decision, are we going to do it right and lose some money on this aspect of the job? Or are we going to cut corners to keep the bid? And it's like, that's never an option. And the foreman knows that. And so whenever they're out there working, I've really ingrained in them. If there's two ways to do it right and wrong, do it right no matter what.
00:32:31
Speaker
We'll figure out the results and what we have to come up with afterwards, but let's get it right. We'll learn this lesson for next time. Exactly. At the end of every job, we sit down and we say, okay, what did we learn? What did we learn? And then we take notes on that and then we'd be sure that it doesn't happen again. Next time, it's seven extra hours to complete this task because we forgot. Right. Travis, you've been quiet. That's unusual. What are you saying?
00:33:01
Speaker
We've let them talk, we've just been going. No, I mean, I think it, I think it ties back into like, there's so many common themes and stuff that we talked about, like developing a family, developing culture. Leadership definitely plays a part in that. I know that in circumstances when on both sides of it. So being a leader and having a team and measuring performance and
00:33:26
Speaker
meeting deadlines and holding the standards. If you've done it appropriately, where you've been a great leader, you develop that culture where you trust each other, you know the team there cares about each other, wants to do the right thing. You built the right team too. You know where their heart is. You know that they genuinely are wanting to do the right thing. And when you go to them, it's so far like the tough conversations.
00:33:55
Speaker
When you go to them, it makes it a little bit different conversation out of one is I know the times where I got into a lot of trouble as a leader is when I became disconnected from what was actually happening. And I came in with assumptions that weren't necessarily true, but I wasn't staying close to whatever was happening. So I truly didn't understand what was going on. So that later tempered my approach to it in that
00:34:24
Speaker
I knew who they were. I knew where their heart was. They truly did want to do the right thing. And maybe there was a misunderstanding of where I thought was going on. And so when I approached the conversation like that, truly out of a place of carrying them as a human, then knowing that maybe there's something missing if things aren't happening the way that they should. I know that's not what their intent was. And usually that dialogue and get back on track and having that good relationship
00:34:53
Speaker
It was just a pivot then. It was understanding and then working together. And then the flip side on times where maybe I've been that person. So I know where I fall into challenges is I'm an A-type personality. I like to take on everything, figure it out. I'll take on more than what I potentially can and feel like I'll just figure it out. Even things that I've never even done before, I'll go headlong into it. I'll frickin' learn it.
00:35:22
Speaker
And I've developed kind of a career of doing that. And a lot of times, especially in the areas where maybe I haven't done it before, where it takes longer, maybe I miss timelines or I miss those tough conversations, I feel horrible that I've had to have them in my career. I feel horrible that I put that leadership in that position that we even we're even here. And that
00:35:49
Speaker
becomes a learning point for me is leadership not only happens from the top down, but it happens from the bottom up. Communication's critical. Leading yourself to, if things aren't happening appropriately, leadership happens at yourself, the people around you across, down and up of, if there's an incongruency and things aren't happening the way they should, maybe the plan slid or we're not achieving whatever we had set out to,
00:36:20
Speaker
If I'm putting my leadership in a position where they
360-Degree Leadership
00:36:25
Speaker
don't understand what's happening and we've gotten to the point where something slid, that's an ownership on my part. I didn't effectively communicate, hey, what was happening before there was a Mitch match. I put that on myself. So the leadership thing, the community that you build, the people that you're around, the team that's there,
00:36:49
Speaker
And the leadership starts with yourself, but leadership doesn't always just have to happen from the top and whoever's the CEO or the manager or the boss. You lead yourself, you lead the teams around you, but you also lead up to in the sense that that's typically in the form of communication and continuing that relationship. And if things are a mismatch in either way, it's typically communication. It could be the team, it could be things, but as long as you know that the team and the individuals on your team
00:37:20
Speaker
are like-minded, that they care about, they want to do the right things, then it's typically a result of lack of communication or lack of leadership on multiple levels, not just one direction. I like that because I think our society now likes to put a lot of emphasis. I heard a speech not too long ago from someone that's more in the safety field. With our business, safety is a huge part in the industry and in the house.
00:37:48
Speaker
But the person had talked about, so like a lot of the whole safety movement the last 10 years or so has almost been, let's say I'm an employee in the field and let's say Travis, you are a safety director. So it's almost too much of a reliance that I am looking to you for all of my judgment. Um, you basically tell me what to do when it comes to safety, Travis, please. But what that does is it's also taking the self responsibility I should have.
00:38:19
Speaker
to lead myself, to be safe myself without you. You're providing a guidance. But anyway, so this speaker was talking about was you can't take all of that away from them. They should have, and you should be hiring people who are naturally going to figure that out themselves a little bit, that they want to work on a safe job site. They're not going to rely on Travis 100%. They want to just be safe.
00:38:45
Speaker
They'll look to Travis for certain examples of safety. But anyway, taking this back to more leadership, that's correct too. And what you're saying, I think is you also have to have the right people that realize, yes, the leader is important, but I actually also owe that person honesty because they can't make the right decisions if they don't have the whole story. You know, I've seen that before where the leader thinks, Hey, I got all this data. I can make a decision based upon this data, but the data is faulty.
00:39:15
Speaker
And maybe that goes back to him, you know, or him or her leading a company to where people are afraid to be honest and direct with him, you know, where they're afraid to come to him. Um, or maybe that's a hiring issue where they hired the wrong people or, or whatever it is. But, you know, every person has, has to bring forth the full transparent, honest truth, or the leaders not doing their job. And I, a lot of that does sometimes come down to, I think where the leaders unapproachable, you know, and I look back at like my time as leader at Lanarkorp,
00:39:45
Speaker
There's been several times where some of our core guys, I was actually the first person they called at times like, Hey, I just messed up. What do I do? You know, where sometimes that's, that's, this is the last person they want to call because I'm also the one that signs your paycheck. And I love that I was the first one they called because number one, they trusted me to help walk them through it.
00:40:07
Speaker
you know and they weren't afraid to bring that to me. So I think that's a huge thing in leadership too and I'm gonna tie that back to safety now. One of the reasons Atlanta Corp I think that safety is better here than it is other companies is because people are not afraid to actually bring us the near miss. The hey that almost happened or the safety concern that they have on the job site where some we've worked for some companies
00:40:32
Speaker
where it's such a punishment model that nobody ever wants to bring anything forward. You know, the customers we work for, not all of them, some of them, where people are just afraid to bring stuff to them. Well, guess what? You can't learn. You can't improve because you don't know because people are afraid to come to you. So I think as a leader, we got to make sure, too, that we are calm, that people respect us enough to actually bring us the full story, whether that's in safety, whether that's a job site issue, an employee issue like, hey,
00:41:02
Speaker
This does not represent in Arrow Valley or Lanter corporate, whatever on the job site. Like they may act this way in the office when they're around you Tucker or around you Travis or whatever, but in the job site, they are rude to the customer. You've got to have that open the openness and honesty with your crew. Um, so anyway, that's another leadership, not on our list today, but that made me think of it, Travis, and you're bringing that up. So there's a, but talk about leaving yourself to, um, I think leadership too, if, if,
00:41:30
Speaker
We spent any time studying it. It typically gets kind of a connotation that it's a top down, but it's so important to view it as 360, but it starts with you.
Self-Leadership and Personal Growth
00:41:43
Speaker
There's a, I don't know if you call it a fable or what, but it's an old saying, I actually saw it as a poster somewhere, but it's talking about the tale of two wolves or maybe, but it's some grandfather that was talking to his son
00:42:00
Speaker
essentially said that, and I'm paraphrasing, but that there's essentially two wolves in all of us. And that one wolf represents like jealousy, sorrow, regret, arrogance, resentment, pride, ego. And then there's another wolf that's good that represents like peace, love, benevolence, generosity, integrity. And then the grandson looked up at the grandfather and said, so
00:42:28
Speaker
If they're always battling and they're inside of you, which one wins? And his response just like the one you feed. And ultimately that what we focus on, what we choose to focus on will prevail. And that starts with us. We choose what we focus on. For better or worse, we descend into sorrow and pity and so for more some become bitter to ourself and those around us or
00:42:55
Speaker
If we see the setbacks or the wins, don't let the peaks and valleys get too high, but always focus on what's positive. And I think it was maybe part of our previous conversation too of who do we surround ourself with? What content do we surround ourself with? Feed the wolf, that's good. Whatever we focus on, whichever wolf we feed, that's what's going to materialize in our life that starts with the leadership of yourself.
00:43:21
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. John Maxwell calls it the law of the lit. It's the first law in the 21 irrefutable laws of leadership. He's like, if you're, if you're here, you can't lead people past here. He's like, you've got to come to here if you want to lead them at any higher than what you are. And part of that is teaching them to lead themselves and teaching them to lead others. So like you said, 360 approach, but you're never going to lead someone past where you are. So you are the lid of your organization. There's, there's another, it's called the Peter principle. So this is,
00:43:49
Speaker
It can be good or bad. It typically results in bad. It depends on who this affects. But the Peter principle in that we're promoted to the level of incompetence and that you take somebody who's a high performer in a certain area and you continue to promote them to a position where they're no longer competent in that you've given them scope or responsibility or a team or areas beyond what they've ever achieved before.
00:44:19
Speaker
and they plateau out. And I think there's two paths that, well, maybe three, but it really is, it's either ascension or dissension. When the person gets to that plateau where they're now uncomfortable and they haven't chartered this ground before, they either stay stagnant, which really isn't stagnant, they start to descend, they cover up,
00:44:49
Speaker
that they cover what they can, but things typically start to destabilize whatever they're responsible for. Or they ascend, and that's typically a result of them realizing, man, I'm somewhere where I haven't been before, and I need to learn. I need to grow. I need to absorb, start influencing things in my life where I understand or I can excel, one, compensate for the deficiencies where I'm at and be able to achieve
00:45:19
Speaker
at this level, but then how do I take it to the next step? How do I start to win here where I've never been before? But that Peter principle, it's kind of an unrealizing. We don't typically see it because it happens in the background where we promoted that person in our organization to that period. And then we just wonder like, well, damn, what happened? Like they were a star performer. Maybe you put them into an area where they haven't been before.
00:45:50
Speaker
I mean, it could be other things too. There could be other personal things or whatever that's affecting that. But when we're looking at purely from a business or contextual standpoint, to be cognizant of what are the attributes that they have, what skills do they have, where have they been, what will they do when they hit adversity? Will they shrink or will they rise? And helping maybe coach them through that or understanding that's that personality that they'll work through that.
00:46:19
Speaker
That's something that typically affects growing organizations specifically, that it doesn't matter what the industry is, but it really depends on that self-leadership too. Realizing if you are that person where the Peter principle is in effect in that you've now been put into position where you're out of your depth essentially, what do you do? And it comes down to self-leadership. I like that.
00:46:48
Speaker
Basically, you are responsible for you at the end of the day. You know what I mean? I think it kind of can tie back to what we talked about in other episodes is that continuous improvement, self-improvement. You know, as a leader, like you said, Tucker, if you if you lead an organization for 40 years and you started the bar here,
00:47:05
Speaker
And then you grow people to that, but if you don't continue to grow yourself, those people, you know, can't continue to grow with you. Um, and I think if you're like you said, Travis, someone's promoted into a position and you're like, ah, man, this is actually a little tougher than I thought they will either ascend or descend. But I think having that approach that, Hey, I am now in this position. Now I have stuff I got to learn and hopefully I can lead on my boss to do some of that. And the boss will provide it.
00:47:30
Speaker
Or maybe I just need to, you know, dig into some podcasts, digging into some books, but I have learning I need to do and continuously learn to, to, to develop, you know, my little group of people that I'm in charge of. So I think, you know, again, self-improvement, self, uh, you know, the, the draw the blank, but anyway, growing oneself and constantly pushing to learn. It's just, I don't, to me, that is, that goes out through, throughout all areas of life, whether that's fitness, faith, family, leadership, whatever it is.
00:48:00
Speaker
The moment you become stagnant is the moment you die. You stop right there. So anyway, just a thought whenever you were, we're talking about that Travis. Any final thoughts guys, as we wrap this one up? Man, I think it's, I think it's our duty to be the best version of ourself and that's for others. Like even if you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for those who depend on you. Yeah. I think that's good. I like that.
00:48:31
Speaker
Travis, what about you? Any final closing thoughts? Nuggets of wisdom. You know me. I mean, you said to yourself, we can talk. We're already pushing the hour. This is so important. I think everything we're talking about comes down to the human piece T. Ownership, ownership personally, ownership of our organizations, 360. I mean, performance, human performance, striving for excellence. I mean,
00:48:57
Speaker
Those are all kind of human traits and human characteristics want to be the best version, not only for ourself, but everything around us, the people around us. I love what you just said there, Tucker. And we'll do more to avoid pain than to gain pleasure. And if we can reframe things in that manner, not necessarily for ourself, because we might endure pain ourself, but we can view it as the pain and the hardship that people around us will endure.
00:49:25
Speaker
if we aren't our best self, um, can maybe be a better motivator. But yeah, it comes. You just throw in these little quotes and just keep on rolling. He's a quote master, man. He's a quote master. He's good, man. That's good. Do people do more to avoid pain than they do to gain pleasure? I like that. It's a dominant human characteristic. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very true, unfortunately. Yeah.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah, when I say I like that, I guess I like the quote, I don't necessarily like that. Yeah, yeah. Now and I think to kind of wrap things up too.
Leadership vs. Management
00:50:01
Speaker
There's people need to understand the difference between leadership,
00:50:05
Speaker
and management. There are two completely different things to me. Leadership is more like you said, Travis. It's more the human element. It's the leading by example, caring about others, building that culture, being the vision setter. It's about the human element of, well, it's leadership. Management to me is more of the strategy behind the scenes. Hey, we need our financials to hit these targets. We need our KPIs to be here.
00:50:32
Speaker
If we do this, this, and this over the next three years, we acquire this company, we do this, we get this level of growth, hopefully. It's more of the strategy, the analytical side. And I feel like a lot of people think that's mainly what it is to work with a group of people, to be over them, it's more the managerial.
00:50:50
Speaker
You got to have both. The managerial should help guide the vision, but then you've got to have the leadership to take that to the people and actually get them to buy in, actually get them to want to follow you. But then you've got to be genuine in all of that. And it can't just be, I'm here to achieve goals. I'm going to be this fake person to help get us there. You've got to actually care about these people. You got to actually be the example, not just at work as a human being, be an example to where you gain the respect and you're actually helping them in their life.
00:51:19
Speaker
I think when you do those things, that's when you gain the respect. That's when people actually want to follow you because you're a human being worth following.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:51:28
Speaker
And then that's when you can actually be the leader you want to be. And then hopefully you've got the managerial side, you've got the team in place there, the accountants and the lawyers and all those people to help this whole chess game move forward. But you've got to be the leader that people need. So thank you guys. Tucker, always a pleasure. Travis, always a pleasure. If you liked the podcast, we don't charge for it.
00:51:49
Speaker
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