Transcript
Danny Price: All right. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Temple Talk Recap Podcast. This is going to be episode three. um We're going to be going over the sermon from this last week called Forgive Like Jesus. The difference with this um podcast episode, and this is going to be the case with a couple, is that Shane did not actually teach this sermon.
Danny Price: It was taught by Bruce Heggelson. um So Shane, just wanted to go over this. How does does it feel to be a pastor, but you know teach most of the sermons, and then have someone else teach? like Tell me about that.
Shane: Yeah, I mean, it's a hard thing sometimes. um and The more I get to know a person, the easier it is. um so a You know, when we have guests in that we don't have much of a relationship with, you know, that can be weird.
Shane: We actually had someone a couple of months ago that I didn't really even know. so I trust the person who recommended him. um and even then, it was really weird.
Shane: um But that's like.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Like I would only take the recommendation of maybe there's very few people that I would do that with anyway. um But yeah, i mean, with Bruce, I know Bruce, I know where he's coming from.
Shane: ah yeah kind of know how he thinks. So it is weird because I sit there the whole time and go, well, oh, I would have gone into this or I would have taken this deeper.
Shane: I don't know why you said that, you know, but but I think you just do that anyway.
Danny Price: Yeah. yeah
Shane: so
Danny Price: No, i think I think that's like once you're good at something and you see someone else do something, your natural reaction is to go, oh, that's cool.
Shane: Yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: I like that. Or, oh, that's interesting. Or, oh, I wouldn't have i would have done it differently. No, that that totally makes sense.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: I don't speak publicly.
Shane: It's hard not to judge them.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah. um Yeah, and that's what we're going to be talking about today.
Shane: Since we're talking about since we're talking about judgment.
Danny Price: it's It's perfect. It's perfect. um So yeah, so that's a good segue. So I'm hoping you guys that are listening to this, listen to the sermon first.
Shane: a
Danny Price: If not, I mean, obviously you'll still get stuff out of this, but it would meet you know help out with context. So the first question that I was writing down as I was listening to the sermon was, is being judgmental wrong? And does the Bible say strictly don't judge? Because I think A lot of people that maybe aren't even Christians, they say that.
Danny Price: Oh, the Bible says do not judge. Does the Bible actually say that? Should we not judge?
Shane: um It actually does say, don't judge lest you be judged. And then right after that, he goes into the parable of the plank and the sawdust.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: um But you know you can't just take one verse, the Bible says, and not have it within the context of what is meant.
Shane: he um Excuse me, i'm my throat's bogged and bothered me. so But um I would say, and Bruce actually talked about this, it's wrong for us to have a judgmental attitude.
Shane: Like we should not you know be looking for things to judge you know and be be picky about everybody and always you know always kind of looking out versus taking the time to look in. you know And I find that most judgmental people are more focused on looking out than they are looking in.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Got it.
Shane: So, you know, it's not wrong to like, well, I guess what I would say this. There's a difference, too, between judging like us making a decision. Is that right or wrong?
Shane: And then just following what God's word says. God's word as right and wrong. And it's not wrong for us to call out things that are in obviously in God's word.
Shane: um But I still think we need to be careful with it to make sure it's done in love and to make sure that we are really examining ourselves as much as we can in that.
Danny Price: right
Danny Price: Yeah. Well, that makes sense. That's that that's a good answer. So like with that, it's kind of like segues into like the next question. Do we really only, I guess judge might not be the best the best word sometimes, but do we have a role to call out other Christians?
Danny Price: And do we even have a role to call out the world? Cause they're, I mean, they're not holding themselves to a higher standard or is there just like objective truth that we can hold people to? I mean, I'm, I'm not saying that we should go out and just judge the world and judge other people and just call people out for everything.
Danny Price: Is it just for Christians? It's just people that we know, like in our social settings, or should we be behind the keyboard on Facebook? Just like, Oh, the world is this, the world is that, you know, does that make sense?
Shane: Yeah, makes sense. I think judging the world based on what we are called to as Christians is like judging a dead body for not being able to walk.
Shane: um We.
Shane: We say we believe that someone is dead in their sins, that they they do not have the Holy Spirit in them. And then we tell them that they need to behave like they have the Holy Spirit in them.
Danny Price: right
Shane: And so I think judging them for that is wrong. Now, letting them know that there is such a thing as sin and calling them to repentance are two different things.
Shane: You know, like, so and think we can tell the world that there is sin and call them to repentance, call them to put their faith in Christ.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: But that's different than nitpicking their sins. Does that make sense?
Danny Price: Yeah, totally.
Shane: um You know, like, people need to see they need a savior. And if we don't think we have any right or wrong, then it's hard for us to see we need a savior.
Shane: um So I think as a Christian, we are called to talk about sin and holiness.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: Obviously, we need to seek to live out example as much as we can. And and then we point people to Jesus. But like if I have a friend who's a non-Christian,
Shane: I'm not gonna, if he wants to, you know, get drink every weekend till he's drunk and he is a womanizer and he, um you know, steals from his company I'm gonna let him know at least how I feel about it but I'm not gonna call him out on that every weekend because that's, that's, he doesn't, he doesn't follow Christ.
Shane: So of course he's gonna live that way if he wants to.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Now, what I am to do is try to find him when he's feeling lost, feeling down, feeling, seeing the emptiness, you know, cause everyone, when they practice sin, they have times when they're empty and they're sinned and hit him on some of those times and hopefully point him to Jesus.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: So,
Danny Price: Got it.
Shane: you know um But as far as Christians, I mean, we do, I think we, yeah, we are called to call each other out as Christians and to hold each other up and lift each other up to holy holiness.
Danny Price: Right. Right.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: so
Danny Price: Right. And we talked a little bit about that last week. So some of this stuff is going to be repetitive just because the sermon series is, you know, hitting things multiple, multiple ways.
Shane: Yeah.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: So I guess this is a question that I've had too for a while.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: You know, because you you talk about the put the parable of the plank and the speck, and Jesus says, you know, like, you feel you fool, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you'll be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Danny Price: What does that mean? Because, and like i guess, what would you interpret that to mean um from the Bible? Because does that mean that you have to get rid of all your sin? to be able to quote unquote, remove a speck from someone else's eye. What does that mean exactly? Is that just that you see yourself clearly? Is that that you're humble? Is it like, what is that? What is that?
Danny Price: I've never been able to really like put my finger on what that means. Like, how do you remove sin? How do you remove the plank? But you obviously can't be perfect. How does, what does that mean?
Shane: Yeah, um I think it means, you know, the once you heard the adage where whenever I point my finger at you, I have three fingers pointing back at me. you ever heard that?
Danny Price: Okay. Yeah, I have that.
Shane: um
Danny Price: I have heard that.
Shane: So it's kind of that idea of
Shane: man, focus on the three fingers pointing back at you. Now, once again, you have to wait till all sinners removed from your life? No, because you can't. If you did that, you'd never we'd never call each other out.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: um But once again, I think it's the attitude in the heart. And i think Jesus is saying, when I when i look at the context of that parable, He's saying that if you're going around having a heart to judge, your heart is the actual issue. Your heart has a bigger issue than the other.
Shane: um So there's a huge difference. You know, I mean, and you I have had conversations where we've talked through like things that maybe you either see in me or I see in you that could we could better ourselves in, right?
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: but But we know those are not coming out of attitudes and hearts of judge judgmental or an heart of judgmental.
Danny Price: Yeah, yeah.
Shane: I don't know how to say that.
Danny Price: No, what you're saying. Yeah, yeah.
Shane: A judgmental heart. um We know they're coming out of a place of love that only wants... to encourage the other person in their walk.
Shane: And you know that that is what we're called to do. And I think what Jesus is simply saying is when you're looking to judge others, you are the one with the bigger heart issue.
Danny Price: Got it. let's but That seems accurate. um i I've heard that parable, you know you can go crazy ways with that if you just take something out of context.
Shane: Yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: I think you could go crazy ways with it. So ah that's good that's a good word.
Shane: Well, the world loves the world love that passage, right? Because the world wants to point at that and say, ah we should never say anything is right or wrong. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: Accept everything, yeah.
Shane: So.
Danny Price: Totally. Okay. um So I know Bruce, he spent most of his time, which by the way, if you haven't listened to it, it's awesome. Bruce does a good job with but the passage and with everything going on. um He talks about forgiveness for you know most of the sermon. most of the sermon is about forgiveness. He does talk about the judging a little bit to kind of set that up and having a forgiving heart and all that.
Danny Price: Personally, I've never really had someone, I mean, I've had people hurt me and, ah go ahead.
Shane: Hey, Danny, you're gonna have to pause it. Danny, you're gonna have to pause it.
Danny Price: You got it, got All right, so the question I was trying to ask was, So I've, I've had to forgive people in my life for little things, you know, like the small injuries to myself, small, you know, things where people have hurt my feelings, um, kind of overstepped and stuff like that.
Danny Price: I've never had ah situation in my life where I've been seriously hurt by somebody and had like, really, it's been difficult to forgive. Um, Bruce talks about like Corrie ten boom. And obviously that was a crazy situation with the Holocaust, but I've never had anything close, even close to that.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: Um, you know I know as Bruce talks about the steps of forgiveness, have you ever had to forgive someone for something super serious like that, where it was serious offense to you? And then did you use those steps? Did you do something else? How did you go about forgiving them?
Shane: yeah um Yeah, I have. I've had a few things in my life where someone has either very specifically hurt me, like done or said something, you know, and and not just like on accident, oh, in passing and a thing, but like written me a letter being super critical or calling me all sorts of names or
Danny Price: Oh, gosh.
Shane: um yeah I've had situations like that. and then you know Even to you know my mom who abandoned me when I was a baby. and my or you know My dad who kind of yeah was a drug addict and messed up my childhood and all that.
Shane: so I've had quite a bit of things. like um but What's weird is I honestly don't look at any of it as that big of a deal.
Shane: really do think
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: i kind of and i really do think that's it like ah kind of a good indication of your heart. um i I personally am so focused on Christ's forgiveness for me that
Shane: that when people do things against me, sure, I hurt for a little bit or I even get angry for a little bit. But after a week or two, I'm usually like,
Shane: you know what, everyone sins, everyone's messed up, everyone, everyone's broken. and um You know, I even find myself kind of going, you know what, whatever they they're doing to me, it's probably because of whatever heart, they have worse stuff going on in their own heart that they're trying to deal with and they just don't know how to deal with it. So they're putting it on me and if it helps them to put it on me, let them put it on me, you know? um
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: So I really do think
Shane: that i mean i've i've had people come come to me and like how do i get over this how do i forgive and some of the things they're saying i'm like what are you talking about that's not even a big deal you know so um so i really do think a lot of it is on yeah how much judgment you carry towards other people if you have a hard if you judge other people really harshly
Shane: it's hard to forgive. um
Danny Price: You have a high standard.
Shane: But yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: It's, yeah.
Shane: But if you if you kind of have a heart of like, you know what, I'm just going to forgive people. and i'm not you know i'm When people do something against you, you yeah i think you have a little bit more grace towards it.
Shane: you know So um I don't know how if I'm answering your question, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: you know how do you do do that yeah i mean bruce's steps were great i i really believe and and i've counseled people who do the same thing about writing a letter and then just praying about it and then you know not sending the letter just praying over the person for a week or so and then just you know giving it to god you know um releasing releasing it to him you know quit carrying it you know um so i don't know
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. No, I think, I think that's good. Yeah. No, it's hard. If you're if you're looking for offense too, I think you're going to get offended more often. Not necessarily. That's not always a criteria for being offended because sometimes people do hurt you.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: But if I know that in my, in my life, like when I'm on edge and I'm, looking at, I guess what what, what, who was it? I don't know if it was Brene Brown or someone, somebody talks about like the whole perceived negative intent and perceived positive intent, like, or assumed positive intent.
Shane: Yeah. cap Yeah.
Danny Price: I think that's but that's the right way to say But basically if you go into a lot of situations, assuming they're, they have negative feelings towards you when they're intending things to be negative, you just read everything as like, Oh, that hurts me.
Shane: Assumed. Yep.
Shane: Yeah. Yep.
Danny Price: Oh, that hurts me. But if you go into situations with assumed positive intent, then you're assuming the best and trying to assume the best from people. And it's a lot harder to be hurt because you can easily go, Oh, well they might've had a bad day.
Danny Price: Or, you know, it's like, if you're driving with road rage all the time versus driving is like Oh, that might be a grandma that, you know, it's her, you know, she's just going to see her grandkids for the very last time, you know something like that.
Danny Price: Like you just have such a more gracious attitude, um, assuming positive intent.
Shane: yeah
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: So.
Shane: Yeah, and that's a great point.
Danny Price: Cool. um So let's let's look at my list here. Just being a Christian, does that change the way we forgive? Is there a difference between Christian forgiveness than just someone who's like a moral, quote unquote, good person forgiving?
Danny Price: um is What do we have different about christian like a Christian's perspective of forgiveness that others don't?
Shane: Yeah, I think absolutely it there is. um So I think there are some people, whether they're Christian or not, who just have a yeah makeup, whatever for whatever reason, the way they're built, they forgive easier than others.
Shane: So, you know, so you're going to find some non-Christians just who are moral, good moral people.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: It's well, no one is good, all that blah, blah, blah, you know, but for moral people who are going to
Danny Price: Yeah, right.
Shane: forgive easier than some Christians.
Shane: Because some Christians, for whatever reason, their background and whoever they're made up, they they that's a harder thing for them to do. That's a burden they carry. um But where it's different is, let's just say you have two people who are equal in kind of the way they're built in their forgiveness.
Shane: The Christian should should what they're called to do is not just put the thing behind them, But they're called to then even seek to love the other person in in that. and And I would say most people don't do that. Most people just kind of forgive and kind of go, well, whatever, and then they just kind of move on.
Danny Price: Forgive and forget, Hmm.
Shane: But as Christians, yeah, as Christians, we're called to say, okay, I'm going to forgive them. And part of that means as much as I can, I'm going to show them love um as Christ shows me love.
Shane: um You know, and it should be different because we we know Christ and we know that he forgave us at the highest level.
Shane: And so now you when you take that person who really struggles with forgiveness, they, it should, their love for Christ should rise them up out of that.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um You know, so that they, um
Shane: they're able to heal versus like a person who's not a good, good, at who's not good at forgiving, that person carries it there. They never heal or whatever, if if they don't know Christ, but if they know Christ, they should be constantly growing in that and be moving towards sanctification, where they grow in that and get better and better at it and heal more and more over yeah over the years.
Danny Price: No, that makes sense. That's good. um So then this leads me to a kind of a follow-up question that I was thinking of. and I don't have, I've heard this before from other people and I don't know um how much you want to get into this. We could spend a whole episode on this, but...
Danny Price: you know, Jesus calls us to be, you know, have long suffering and be, have patience and forgive, you know, and it goes on and on about that.
Shane: Thank you.
Danny Price: How do you, where's the line with forgiveness and not letting yourself get abused by someone? Like I think of like a battered woman who's like, okay, and I'm just going to forgive my husband. That's abusing me.
Danny Price: And like, I mean, talk about something that's just, I don't know how that would happen. like that'd be so hard for my mind to wrap around, you know, forgiving an abuser. But then we're not, you're not letting that person take advantage of you and just letting them do it over and over again.
Danny Price: Is that accurate? Like, how do you, how do you forgive people and have long suffering and patience and not become someone that's just abused and taken advantage of in a bad way? Like, not like, you know, I'll, so I'll, I'll serve them, you know, and let myself quote unquote be taken advantage of, but I'm talking about like real, like I'm being taken advantage of.
Danny Price: Someone's hurting me physically or mentally.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: It's serious. And I don't, you don't want to walk back into that over and over again. How does that work?
Shane: No. Well, I think i so Henry Cloud's um Boundaries, the book Boundaries, ah does a good job.
Danny Price: I don't think I read it.
Shane: okay It does a great job of explaining this. That idea that you can forgive someone but still put a boundary to say, I'm not going to let you hurt anyone.
Shane: um And you know like let's just take not let's not go to the extreme of the abuse like a physical someone who's physically abusive, but some people have a family member who is just extremely manipulative or.
Danny Price: okay
Shane: um ah controlling and you know always just ruins family events and everything right. um.
Shane: I start with that is you forgive the person and you love them, but then you set the boundaries and you be clear. you vert You verbalize, hey, this and this and this happens regularly.
Shane: I'm not going to let that happen regularly. So you can come to this event or whatever if you promise not to a B, and C. If you do A, B, and C, I'm going ask you to leave.
Shane: You know, um so that's kind of like not as extreme, right?
Danny Price: Right, yeah.
Shane: An abusive situation.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: i mean, I've counseled couples to say, hey, you can forgive the person, but that doesn't you stay in the home. You know, um you you can forgive the person, but maybe you need to move out for a while while this person goes to therapy, while this person gets held accountable by people men or women or what you know whatever their gender.
Shane: um And then, you know, that person has to earn right for that level of relationship with you. um You know, and, you know, I think that's a biblical view of marriage.
Shane: You mean, you don't just leave, you know, just, you know, divorce right away, just be good.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: But you also You also don't just sit there and go, well, I'm married and I'm just going to let this person beat up on me.
Danny Price: Just let it walk. Yeah.
Shane: Yeah. You know.
Danny Price: What was that book that you mentioned that talks about this?
Shane: It's called Boundaries by Henry Cloud.
Danny Price: Henry Cloud. Okay.
Shane: Yeah, it's definitely worth the read.
Danny Price: Yeah, I know I haven't read that.
Shane: It's definitely worth the read.
Danny Price: No, that's good. um Yeah, because I think as Christians, sometimes I think even people who are abusers could use verses like that. Like, well, you have to forgive me and you have like you have to.
Danny Price: And that doesn't mean like, you know what i mean?
Shane: yeah Oh, yeah.
Danny Price: Like someone who's like, well, the Bible says you have to forgive me and you're a Christian.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: So you've got to forgive me and take me back every single time.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: And then you get in situations that can get incredibly messy because of that, which is sad.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: But I think it's, you know, the world we live It's sin.
Shane: No, absolutely. Absolutely.
Danny Price: Sin. Yeah.
Shane: All right.
Danny Price: So final question that I have for today is, so scripture it says, scripture teaches us the importance of forgiveness in our life and receiving forgiveness. And, there seems to be some kind of contingency that Jesus puts both in certain places like in Matthew, but then I think Paul puts other places about to receive forgiveness, you need to forgive.
Danny Price: And then the the explicit example that I'm thinking of is the parable of the um servant or the slave that owes his master. Um, whatever it is. I think in like U S currency, it was, it's like crazy amounts.
Danny Price: It's like hundreds of thousands of dollars, but then the master has mercy and forgives him.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: And then he immediately goes out and finds this guy that owes him like the equivalent to like 50 bucks or something or something small and rings his neck.
Shane: Yeah, it starts strangling.
Danny Price: And it's like, to throw you in jail. Yeah. And it's like, give me my money. And then the master finds out about It's like, how dare you? so then, then i you know, the summary is, is like, forgive, forgive lest your father in heaven, not forgive you.
Danny Price: um Talk about that a little bit. Why does it seem like there's very clearly like a contingency upon you being forgiven by how you forgive others?
Shane: him um There's a lot. That's a deep question.
Danny Price: I know.
Shane: um
Danny Price: I'm sorry. That's...
Shane: Yeah, no, no, that's a good. um
Shane: It's hard because.
Shane: yeah know Jesus said he forgives us of all of our sin, right? um But then you' have you definitely have this parable where Jesus says, you know, um as you forgive, you'll be forgiven, basically, you know.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: um and And the prayer, which says, you know, give us our debts as we forgive those who are sins and those who live against us.
Shane: And
Shane: i do think we have a call to show our movement towards Christ-likeness by how much we are willing to forgive.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: um And, you know, because we ah the Bible also says, you know, you'll know us by our fruit. And, you know, you can say you're a Christian all day long.
Danny Price: right
Shane: But if you're someone who constantly you just hold things and never learns to forgive, then have you have you really yourself truly experienced the forgiveness of Jesus?
Shane: Like, have you? Like I said earlier, like so many things in my life where some people might go, oh, that's so big. How do you get over that? You know, in my mind, I'm like, you know what? They screwed up. They're sinners. I'm a I'm a sinner. That's good. Thank you. Thanks for the grace of Jesus.
Shane: And but there are some who go, well no, don't.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: How would you heal? How do you heal from that? Well, part of me goes, man, have you um have you really experienced the forgiveness of Jesus? If you're unwilling to forgive, you know, that' that's a, I don't know, that's a fruit issue that only God can judge.
Shane: But he does make it clear at some level, there's got to be a judgment on it.
Danny Price: right
Shane: and And so, you know, i can't I can't answer that exactly how, but um it does seem to correlate.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, no. it And it's, and that's a tough question because I think I don't want to, yeah. I don't want to put this, like this huge thing where you're like, well, if you just, if you've had this hard issue and you self and forgiven them, then you have no forgiveness and you sit in unforgiveness. Like literally God will not forgive you. And you are sitting in unforgiveness unless you forgive this person. It's crazy.
Danny Price: So that they've made. i mean, that's a hard, that's a really hard line to draw. And I'm not asking you to draw that.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: I'm just curious about, cause I mean, it says, it seems pretty clearly in a bunch of different places in the Bible where it talks about forgiveness and being forgiven. It kind of goes handin hand in hand. Um,
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: But man, and and again, for me, as someone who hasn't heard or sorry, been hurt by someone um that seriously, I'm like, it's like, oh, it's easy for me to say that. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, forgive, you know, forgiveness. I get forgiveness. I forgive.
Danny Price: But then I'm thinking of people, you know like that story that he shared from Corrie Ten Boom that were like, I mean, it's it's something that I can't, my physical human mind can't even comprehend, like that level of evil and just pain and abuse from being like in a concentration camp.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: like I can't be the first one to say that. Like, oh yeah, but you but you just you just have to forgive. Otherwise you're not living in forgiveness. I mean, that's ah that's a tough thing. I want to be consistent with scripture and uphold scripture, but that is that is that is very hard.
Danny Price: So there's like ah there's a weight to that. So thanks for answering that.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: that was ah That's difficult. So on that happy note, that kind of that kind of rounds out all my questions.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Is there anything else you wanted to add?
Shane: No, I guess I would just sum it up by saying, know, it's quite fault we're called to love. Yeah, right. We don't know we're Christians by our love. but Forgiveness is a big piece of love. So are we going to ever be perfect in forgiveness? No.
Shane: But we are called to constantly grow in our forgiveness.
Danny Price: Yeah. but that's that's that That's great. Growing in forgiveness, um especially if it's something that you don't, um you're not naturally inclined to. So that's a good word.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Awesome. so All right. Well, with that, that rounds us out for the end of episode three.
Danny Price: talk to you guys later. Bye-bye.
