Transcript
Speaker: Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart podcast network. Here we go.
Speaker: Come on. Hey, O'Shaughness. Let's The Seattle Sounders have done it. MLS Cup winners. The Sounders rule the region.
Speaker: Ooch of a gooch! All creatures, great and small! Rothrock gonna collect it, he does about, runs into the advertising order. Low to our left, ball goes in! Oh, what a Where's my copy? got bunch of them How many do you cost them? 50 bucks.
Speaker: I'll deadline you.
Speaker: This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters.
Speaker: They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, Pacific Northwest.
Speaker: Welcome back to another episode of Nos Adietes on the Sounder at Heart podcast network. I am Jeremiah O'Shan. Joining me today, once again, one of my my favorite guests.
Speaker: I'll just say it. One of my favorite guests. Paul Tenorio. He, of course, is the author of The Messy Effect, but you probably know him better as the former host of The Allocation Disorder.
Speaker: ah No. ah He is also the senior writer for The Athletic. ah Welcome back again. Yeah, thanks for having me. i um I was joking with my wife about what it meant when when someone said they were ah a big allocation disorder listener. I was like, it's it's like a red flag, I think.
Speaker: It's kind of a red flag. ah i was i was a big I was a big fan. ah but i mean, the people I love the most were big fans, but it's still red flags. for all it's red flag I mean, the biggest of red flags were for me and Sam, obviously, as hosts of Allocation Disorder. That's like the giant, enormous red flag. but Oh, I get it.
Speaker: Yeah. I definitely get it. ah it's it's You got to be a certain kind of sicko to be into that stuff. But I bring it up not on purpose, but actually as accident, because I think today this week's news sort of fit nicely into allocation disorder stuff. And let's be honest, you're still kind of doing allocation disorder stuff. There was a lot of allocation disorder stuff in the messy effect.
Speaker: ah It wasn't probably the reason a lot of people were buying the book, but it was the stuff I found most interesting in the book. And Larry Berg becoming the MLS commissioner is, i mean, this is something that I don't think 95% of MLS fans probably care about.
Speaker: ah But this is a big deal. This is a really big deal. I mean, this is the guy who's going to succeed the most successful. it's It's funny to call him the most successful ah commissioner in MLS history because he's, I think only the second or third commissioner.
Speaker: and But he was he was been there for 30 years. So it's, but, These are big shoes that Larry Berg is stepping into. ah But let's before we get too far ahead of ourselves on that.
Speaker: Tell us about Larry Berg. Who is this guy? And yeah, let's go from there. Yeah, so so Larry Berg is the co-owner of LAFC, and he was the managing partner of LAFC for their first five years, five or six years in Major League Soccer, which means he was the owner who was sitting on the board of governors as the primary um owner.
Speaker: He was the managing owner within the team. they They added an agreement to rotate. um So Bennett Rosenthal is the current managing owner of LAFC. But in the midst of that, even within that rotation, Larry became an important figure in Major League Soccer because he was named to what was then called the Product Strategy Committee in 2019.
Speaker: And the Product Strategy Committee, which is now called the Sporting and Competition Committee, is, in my opinion, you know one of the most important and powerful committees in Major League Soccer, at least from a fan perspective, because it controls the product we see on the field.
Speaker: It controls the roster rules. It controls the competition rules. When you see changes to how teams are put together or what the playoffs look like or anything like that, it starts in that committee.
Speaker: They work on it. They create the changes. They vote on it. Then they push it to the board. and But once it gets to the full board vote, it's already been decided once, once they're recommending it gets done, it gets done.
Speaker: um And Larry became an important voice in that room so much so that he was named the co chair of the sporting and competition committee in February of 2025.
Speaker: And, you know, that's when I, you know, in, in the book, the messy effect, you know, I, I sat and talked with him in the lobby of a fancy hotel in Chicago just a few months into his tenure as the co-chair about the changes he was making to the committee and the way he saw the league going and the vote that was going to be happening that day or the straw poll that was going to be happening that day on the the calendar shift. So all those things are to give you an idea of kind of what Larry's trajectory has been like within the league. Outside of the league, it's important to know Larry made his money in private equity.
Speaker: He was one of the senior partners at Apollo, um which is ah a hugely successful private equity firm. you know His focus was on a lot of areas of education. McGraw-Hill, he served as the chairman, several other education type of companies. He served on the board or as the chair of the board of of many companies.
Speaker: um He was extremely successful at Apollo um Global Management, which... We have seen, you know, Josh Harris was was one of the founders of Apollo as well, who's also done quite well and has purchased other sports teams, including the Washington Commanders and the Philadelphia 76ers and others.
Speaker: others um and And Apollo continues to get involved in in sports. In fact, they also play a role in in my book in that they offered a multi-billion dollar deal to League MX to invest in League MX, to convince League MX to centralize their commercial rights, which would be an enormous threat.
Speaker: to Major League Soccer and they they recently offered 1 billion euros to the Bundesliga on a very similar type of deal. So um he he comes from a private equity background, which I do think is interesting in terms of how we think about how how Larry thinks about change, instituting change, organizational change, all of that, all of that background, the private equity his work with LAFC, his work on the Sporting and Competition Committee, all of that is relevant to, I think, the way Larry will approach, especially the the first few years on the job as commissioner.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's very different than the background that Don Garber came into MLS with, where he was coming out of the NFL. He really had no soccer background. He was not a, I don't know if you would even called him a soccer fan when he got into the league. And that he he was really brought in to get the league's business in order just to sort of save it from ah collapse, essentially.
Speaker: And Larry Bird comes in at a very different time. in in some ways, and he comes in it with very different experiences too. he ah yeah He's a self-avowed lifetime soccer fan. He played soccer he played soccer to like in college, I think. he He was like a... He played ah a club soccer at uc but he grew up playing. He started playing at eight years old in in South Jersey, kind of in the Philadelphia area.
Speaker: And yeah, he's a lifelong soccer fan. In 40 years, he's only missed one U.S. men's national team game, either live or in person. So he's an enormous, he's an enormous U S men's national team fan, which shows the buy-in he's had on soccer for a really long time, far preceding his investment in major league soccer.
Speaker: um He was at the the first galaxy game ever in 1996 and um He was a huge fan of the NASL back in the day. you know, he talked about how devastating it was for him to see other leagues fail when he was talking about kind of Don's success. and And so, yes, he comes from a very strong soccer background as a fan, as a participant, as an investor. He he was an investor in multiple other teams abroad as well, including Swansea.
Speaker: So he has experience in in European football as well. And I think you make a really good point. of kind of where the league was and what it was recruiting before, what it was seeking in a commissioner when Don Garber was hired. Don Garber's first ever soccer game was the world cup final in 1994.
Speaker: He became, the he became the commissioner of major league soccer five years later. um And, um, Don was a marketing guy.
Speaker: That's what his success had been, right? He he came through a marketing firm. He was working on different brands. That's how he met the NFL. He was hired by the NFL. He created the NFL experience, which is you know things that I loved watching growing up. The quarterback challenge, that was Don Garber's brainchild during the Pro Bowl skills challenge, those types of things. The Super Bowl halftime show, the the NFL experience ahead of the Super Bowl, Don Garber created that. That was his his group that came up with the halftime show.
Speaker: So he was very successful in marketing and in selling sports. And that's what and MLS needed. They needed to have relevance. And so they brought in a marketing guy to help sell the league.
Speaker: And what what Don did was much bigger than that to save the league. right In 2001, he came to the table, a very small group in a small room with with bankruptcy lawyers on retainer.
Speaker: And he said, listen, we have two choices here. We can keep going business as usual. And if we do that, we're going to need these bankruptcy lawyers. Or... you guys can quadruple down. move Yeah. Or we can quadruple down.
Speaker: Literally. I'm going to ask for $40 million dollars each and we're going to create soccer United marketing and we're going to invest in the commercial market of soccer beyond just MLS.
Speaker: And what they did was they purchased the world cup rights, um which didn't have a buyer in the United States at the time, which shows where soccer was not that long ago in this country.
Speaker: And they purchased the rights and they ended up selling them via, um, purchased them, I believe from IMG, ended up selling them to yeah ESPN. What happened in 2002? Quite a good bet. The US went to the World Cup quarterfinal, which made selling the 2006 rights far easier.
Speaker: um and MLS started to make some good money through Soccer United Marketing, a very smart plan to invest in the commercial market for the sport itself beyond just Major League Soccer. and And the other thing he said in that room at the time was, we need to start building stadiums. We need to create permanence. We need to tell people we're not going anywhere.
Speaker: and And so that that's also asking for way more money, right? Because you have to go spend a lot of money to build stadiums. And so when we talk about Don Garber's legacy, that's what his legacy is built on. It's it's creating this commercial market that didn't exist before through SakiNet marketing, through MLS's growth.
Speaker: um building out infrastructure in stadiums and training facilities, recruiting ownership groups. um There was a stat that was thrown out at the at Larry's introductory press conference that I thought was super impressive. I hadn't really thought through before where 28 of the 30 owners in MLS were recruited by Don Garber, um which I think speaks to one of his other skill sets that he got better and better at, which is selling expansion teams.
Speaker: And, you know, and and really the Sounders are a big part of that story too, because 2009, the success of the Sounders, I look at as being one of the major turning points in the league history because they showed that you could be relevant and you could put 35,000 people in a stadium in an American market to watch soccer. And he took the success of the Sounders and he went for that second round of expansion teams that he sold off the back of that, including Atlanta United and including LAFC, which then became kind of the next the next Seattle's nine years later, eight and nine years later, respectively, um just after Orlando and NYCFC in 2015. So all of these things are interconnected, but MLS doesn't need the marketing and the sales anymore in the same way, right? What they need is they need to take the business from this kind of strong local business that exists now. For most markets, it's it's it's strong enough.
Speaker: to a degree, but what they're realizing is the cost of business is going up, right? Player costs are going up. And if you want to actually be what they say they want to be, which is one of the best leagues in the world, player costs are probably going to keep going up.
Speaker: And the local revenues that exist and that most teams do fairly well aren't enough to sustain that business. um they they can't sell They can't sell more seats in the stadiums, most teams.
Speaker: or a lot of the most successful ones have already sold out their stadiums. Their commercial deals locally are essentially maxed out. um The suites in the stadiums, you see a lot of and MLS teams now building stadiums that are built around suites and club so that they can charge more money. But there once you there's a cap on how much you can make on that.
Speaker: um what's missing is the national television revenue. And there's been a big chicken and egg debate for a decade on how do you get that revenue? And and MLS has said, we will invest in the product once we get that big TV deal. They they they said- You know, we believe it's the the chicken first, right? Essentially.
Speaker: and And now I think we've seen after about a decade, ah the egg comes first in this case, and they need to make the product better to compel people to watch on TV. And that's where MLS is now. It's like, okay, how do we make the product better? And and and really the the challenge Larry Berg has is is there's not consensus on the answer to that.
Speaker: And there's no proof. No, he's, he he can't know going in that anything that they say or do is, is going to work. Um, but that is the, that is the crux of the problem that Larry Berg is being brought into to solve.
Speaker: And he, and he talked about it at his introductory press conference product first. Yeah. And so he, the fact that he was in the competition committee, i would think, uh,
Speaker: gives was maybe what gave him the leg up because the other people that were the finalists, which ah i actually, I had no idea that Parag Marath was ah one of the finalists. is I don't know that the average listener of our show will know who he is, but he is a, you he was like running the 49ers essentially for a long time.
Speaker: And he has a he's kind of been in up and down 49er circles of of how good or bad that's been, but he's clearly ah a brilliant person, but not necessarily a soccer guy, although he has been involved in soccer with Leeds United and and some other things.
Speaker: And then, and he just left the 49ers by the way, to be full-time in soccer with Leeds and Rangers. So he stepped, I did not know that he withdrew from the, the, from consideration for the commissioner job as one of the three finalists. And he has taken a full-time job,
Speaker: with with the 49ers ownership group enterprises away from the 49ers to focus just on leads and Rangers, which are the two soccer teams that they own. Oh, i did that's that's fascinating. But ah either way, he was not so he was not really involved in... ah He wasn't one of the finalists. And the other one was ah ah forty ah sorry a Sounders minority owner.
Speaker: ah Why am I blanking on Nathanson, right? Yeah. Yes. David Nathanson. David Nathanson, former Fox executive. Right, right. and so that And so seemingly they were given two choices. We can either go with someone who has this more broadcast background or we can go with someone who has this more product focused background. And it seems like They went in with the the guy who has more of an eye towards the on-field product. Is that a fair way of looking at this? I mean, it's basically the final two candidates were the the two sides of the same problem.
Speaker: They need a big media rights deal. So do you go with a media expert who worked in media who can help maybe maximize those relationships to get a media big media rights deal done?
Speaker: Or do you go with the guy who's more familiar with the kind of the inside baseball problems that MLS is facing regarding their roster rules, their product, the guy who's been studying it and who has been at the forefront of the first two legs of MLS 3.0 that have already been voted on, which is the calendar flip, which begins in 27 and the changes to the competition structure, which they haven't introduced yet, but that Larry was letting slip of things that I'm sure All of the PR people in MLS were doing this when he was talking about some of it because they haven't publicly said it, though it is in the messy effect.
Speaker: So please go read the messy effect of the changes to the division structure rather than conferences, what the playoffs will look like, what the regular season will look like. um Larry's been a one of the leaders of those changes. So they went with somebody who already is familiar with the direction the league is moving.
Speaker: who's been a part of these conversations that have been evolving over the last two years. um But it wasn't a unanimous vote. They announced it as a unanimous vote. And ultimately, it got to a unanimous vote because and MLS only likes to announce things as unanimous.
Speaker: um But it actually took multiple rounds of voting for Larry Berg to get to the two-thirds supermajority that he needed to be named commissioner. And I wrote a column the other day saying, like, that's an important note because...
Speaker: Larry is among the people, among the owners in MLS who have said enough of this obsession with unanimity. We have 30 owners now. We don't have 15 or nine or four.
Speaker: yeah Being unanimous is not realistic anymore. And we need to stop pretending that we're going to get to unanimity. This is both on the Sporting and Competition Committee where there's 13 members, but it also extends out to the 30 members of the group. And um there's a quote from Larry Berg.
Speaker: via the reporting of my book where he's in his first meeting in February, he said, we are no longer going with this. This committee is bigger than it's ever been. And the league is bigger than it's ever been. And we need to dismiss the idea of unanimity.
Speaker: um So it's kind of it's quite ironic that that they they felt like they had to get out there to be able to say it was a unanimous vote for a guy who a big part of the change to the efficiency he sees in in getting change done in MLS is let's do away with this obsession with unanimity and get to a place where we can create consensus despite disagreement. and that's And that's really important that MLS evolves to that point.
Speaker: Well, you know, it's it's funny. i was That was actually one of the things I was confused about in your story where you said that he was unanimous, but it was reported as not being unanimous. I was like, what I'm confused. So if I'm just – this is totally beside the point. But am I to understand that basically what happened is they went through multiple rounds going back and forth. And then once it got to a point where it was very clear who was going to win – Berg and everyone sort of just kind of went along and said, right. so fine So basically what happens is you, you let's say that I don't know what the numbers were and I'm not going to.
Speaker: So just, so I'll just start by saying these are not the official numbers, but you, he needed 20 votes to win. He needed a super majority. He needed two thirds. Yeah. So let's say they held the first round of vote and he got 18 yeas and 12 nays.
Speaker: And let's say they said oh at that point they have to vote again. And let's say they voted again. And this time it was 19 and 11. And then they needed a third round. And finally, in the third round, they got to 2010. At that point, he is the commissioner.
Speaker: And at that point, MLS owners basically said, okay, one more round of voting and everyone's going to say, yay, because Larry is the commissioner now. And so we want to be able to go out and with a united front to say, we all wanted this guy. And so that's what happened. Jimmy Haslam said, you know, at the end of the day, it was a unanimous vote. That's how he put it, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. When in reality, and that's, that's not being untruthful, right? Like at the end of the day, they had a unanimous vote. Everyone was ready to go with it. Right. It didn't start that way. And that's important because it is actually quite representative of where the league is at this point. There is a huge divide in the, in the board of governors. They, they,
Speaker: Um, they don't like to admit that they really do not like it. I'm sure I will get calls from owners tomorrow or people that, you know, if there are owners that listen to this podcast, we'll say there's not as big of a divide as you make it out to be.
Speaker: Listen, I've devoted my life in the last four years, three years to, to really understanding what the dynamics are at the board level. There is a divide. There just is, and that's okay. There's, there's a philosophical divide on the best way forward.
Speaker: And I think that's normal and natural and debate is good and arguing and figuring out how do we get to the best possible solution? That's a good thing. And so I think that vote for commissioner was representative of the fact that not everyone is on the same page about how to move this league forward.
Speaker: And and i think that is important for us as fans, for the fans, for the reporters, everyone to understand because that informs how we how we have to think about the job that Larry Berg is doing now.
Speaker: because there were people that voted against him and there were, there are people that don't agree on the board and he does have to find a way to get that first vote. Let's whatever it was, 16, 14, whatever was that whatever it was that split He needs to bring together again to 20 out of 30 to get to the answer on what the roster rule changes are going to be, to get the answer on what the next media deal is going to be. All of those things, like it's the same divide that he needs to find common ground on.
Speaker: and And to be fair, Larry talked about it. And I think that's important too. It's not, this is not a surprise to anyone that was in that room that it wasn't unanimous vote on the first, they're all living the same thing that like I've been studying, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, well, let's talk about maybe the one owner who does listen to this podcast or who might listen to this podcast. What side of the vote would you guess that Adrian Hanauer was on?
Speaker: Well, I would imagine he was on the side of the vote of his partner with the Seattle Sounders, I would i would suspect. um That there's there's some degree of politics that would be there for Adrian Hanauer that regardless of how he feels, he's probably voting for one of his partners first. I would say that it's an interesting spot for Adrian because he knows Larry really well.
Speaker: Because Adrian Hanauer is also on the Sporting and Competition Committee. and has been for a very long time. So he's seen Larry as a member of the committee and he's seen Larry as a co-chair of the committee. And I think that one of the perceptions of Larry that existed within the larger board was that Larry is because LAFC is seen as one of the more quote unquote progressive clubs in MLS, that that meant Larry was in the pocket of the more progressive owners that he, that they were installing somebody to, to basically be
Speaker: the the counter to everything and MLS had been before, right? Because the the perception is that Don was in was was leaned more towards the conservative ownership group.
Speaker: um And a perception that I think is fair, by the way. Though, again, i will say, like, this is ah clearly, again, we're talking about this, the reality for Larry is the same as the reality for Don. It's a very difficult room right now because there's not a ton of, because there is a divide.
Speaker: um But I think Don's instincts after 27 years was to stick with the the the formula that's worked, that's ah that's allowed the league to grow the way it has. And that's been a more that's been a more conservative formula.
Speaker: And I think that Adrian leans more toward that conservative mindset That doesn't mean that he always votes for the more conservative route.
Speaker: But I think that Adrian's approach is very analytical. He wants to study things. and And that's how the league went before. And that's kind of what the hallmark of the Sporting and Competition Committee was under the previous leadership, which was Clark Hunt and Greg Kerfoot. They were the previous co-chairs.
Speaker: is that And and the the strategy was, essentially, we're going to debate this. for a really, really, really long time, you know, whatever these issues are. And I think that's, I think Adrian prefers that, that route. And I think Adrian, i think also Adrian hasn't yet been convinced that a more aggressive tilt toward roster spend will work in work toward the goal of bringing in bigger audience, but we have to separate what fans will we'll think about that. it's not
Speaker: You can disagree with the idea that MLS needs to spend more, and also agree with the idea that MLS needs to spend differently in order to be better and more efficient.
Speaker: I believe that Adrian feels that the league needs to spend differently, that the roster rule changes do need to happen, but that spending more is not going to solve the problems that the league is setting out to solve without creating a different set of problems.
Speaker: So... this isn't necessarily where i hope to get into this, but we may as well get into it because it's a good transition, which I then do. Anyway. ah So wait if I'm, if i'm sort of gaming out the Adrian Hanauer mindset and we'll use Adrian sort of as a,
Speaker: you know, not necessarily him, but this idea is that even though he is behaving in a certain way where he doesn't want to spend, where he's he's giving off ah an energy of, i don't want to spend money that I don't have to spend.
Speaker: But you think that he also understands that if we had more flexibility in the spending, it would make more sense. And so it's not like he's sitting here saying like, I just want a level. I want, I want a parody at all costs and And if that means spending less, that means creating crazy rules, whatever we have to do. I just want parody.
Speaker: You, the impression I get from you is that maybe he's not a parody at all costs guy. He's just a, let's be reasonable how much we're putting into the pot. Yeah, I mean, everyone's definition of reasonable is different, right? like Sure, okay. For Jorge Mas, reasonable is I want MLS and Miami to be globally recognized. And in order to do that, you need to go spend big on big name players that resonate globally.
Speaker: I think that Adrian, one of the things that surprised me most as I was reporting the book was I, I came around to like, I was like, yeah, no ml no MLS owner should be spending big, crazy money under the current rules. Yeah.
Speaker: Why? Right. you know Adrian is said to me on the record, there is no correlation between winning and spending in Major League Soccer under the current structure. And he's right.
Speaker: and And so it it literally the rules do not incentivize owners to spend money. why would Why would you or should you spend if it's not going to guarantee that you have a better team?
Speaker: it it makes just as much sense to say, all right, let's see how little we have to spend in order to make the playoffs. And once you're in the playoffs, it's a crapshoot. And if you spend smarter or you spend just a little bit better than your competition, then you can be in the hunt for a championship. That's MLS right now.
Speaker: And i think I think there's a couple things there. I think what age what what Jorge Mas said in my book is is a fair way of putting it, in my opinion, which is that it's a race to mediocrity. That creates this race to mediocrity of like, everyone is mediocre, so everyone has a chance to win. And and that's really what I think MLS has turned out to be. Like, this isn't a league that's very good. That's why they get beat every single year in the CONCACAF Champions League, except for once, which the Sounders are the exception to that, right? But like, it's because they're mostly just a bunch of mediocre teams that go down to Mexico and can't cope with the home field advantage in Mexico against teams that are slightly, yeah, exactly. Get out, shot 40 to four, right?
Speaker: And, but, ah but that doesn't change the, and MLS doesn't care as much as they should, right? They don't care as much about being the dominant team in the region as they do about maintaining competitive balance within MLS.
Speaker: Like that is the main crux that that has been the main crux of the business. And so I think you've seen some really smart operators say, well, no, I'm not going to spend.
Speaker: Like Sounders have cut spending. Colorado Cronky has never spent. Red Bulls stopped spending on designated players for the most part. NYCFC changed completely how they thought about spending and what their model looked like and looked for U22s and efficiency and spend. They didn't accomplish it necessarily, but they looked for it.
Speaker: You know, and and i I don't blame them for that because they look a lot smarter or or they're at the same level as Toronto FC without the losses. or Chicago fire without the losses, right? Like Mansueto came in and said, I want to spend, but then he went and got a guy who wasn't very good, right? Shaqiri was a disaster. And so was like, what was that worth it?
Speaker: you know, and, and so I just think like that system to me screams, this is broken. If, if it forces teams to spend in one way, essentially, like we can, we can debate about the kind of like flexibility that Todd Durbin and, and the sporting and competition committee have tried to create this kind of Frankenstein monster that responds to specific owners needs at specific times over history and hasn't evolved quickly enough. And,
Speaker: But sure, you can do things a little bit differently here and there. But overall, your spending has to be focused on designated players. The the the the vast majority of higher spending teams can only really spend it on three guys with transfer fees for U22s.
Speaker: and And that's just not efficient. Like nobody in the world could convince me that $25 million dollars transfer fee for Josh Sargent plus 6 million in salary per year over however many years is a better way to spend $45 million dollars to make your team better than signing nine guys on $5 million. dollars Like you just, there's no chance that that's true. It's, it's, it's there's no chance.
Speaker: And so I, I think that Adrian has looked at that situation and said, Okay, we can build a successful team without spending high amounts of discretionary spending. And so we're going to do that. We're going to cut. We don't need to go crazy in the discretionary money.
Speaker: We've got a really nice core of players, which they did. And we're going to stick to that core. And we're going to invest in the academy and invest in youth development. And it's going to be enough for us to win enough to make the fans happy. And that worked for a while. Yeah.
Speaker: And now it's falling apart. And, but the, but even though it's not working this year, the system hasn't changed yet. And so the, the answer is still the same for Adrian as well.
Speaker: We know that we can build without spending. So let's, so maybe we need to rebuild, but that doesn't mean we need to spend more. Right. And I, I want, this is more just what your impression of it is, because my understanding is that there's a lot of,
Speaker: dysfunction, for lack of a better term, inside the Sounders front office, like starting with Adrian and going down to the, you know, the coaching staff where Adrian and i mean, everyone's frustrated by the results.
Speaker: Everyone is, you know, there's a lot more arguing and a lot more loud phone calls. and As happens when you lose, right? Absolutely. When you lose seven in a row, that's going to happen, right? That's all part of it.
Speaker: But I think there's really different opinions on what to do about it. Like the impression I get is that the front office, the sporting staff really, it's like, give us some money and we'll go get some players.
Speaker: And Adrian is sort of sticking to his gun saying, i want you to get players, but I don't want you to spend money. And sort Brian seems like he's caught in the middle of saying like, I need players, but I also want to, I don't want to piss off my boss. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, yeah, but that's that's natural, right? Like a sporting director's job is to win this year. And if you don't win this year, you could get fired. So his take on what the direction is going to be, if I can spend, I can fix this.
Speaker: An ownership group, a lot of times, not all the time, but a lot of time will look at things differently. They'll look at it on a long-term plan. and And I think a lot of and MLS teams are going through this right now where they're looking down the road and they're saying, okay, and Adrian would know this better than most.
Speaker: We know that the roster rule changes are coming. So I don't want to commit. a $10 million dollars transfer fee with a $4 million dollars salary for player X. If I know in one year, I could spend that same amount of money on four different players and that's going to be doable. Whereas it's not doable today or five players.
Speaker: Like if you're, if you had an, if Adrian says like, I can afford 18 million and he says, okay. And, and the sporting staff looks and says, okay, we can buy this guy for 5 million on a 3 million salary over three years.
Speaker: you know, that's 14 million. And then we can do that, you know, they're going to look at it. That's how they're going to look at it. But if Adrian knows, okay, I feel like 70, 30 here, we're going to have roster rule changes where we're going to have, i don't, I'm not going to go with like what the actual change is going to be because there's still some debate over this, but let's say they created a floor and ceiling and let's say the ceiling was 30 million plus three DPs.
Speaker: And there weren't, you know, there wasn't TAM anymore or GAM anymore. There wasn't a max salary anymore. All of a sudden you can have $3 million dollar players that don't hit your budget any different. They don't, they don't automatically become DPs and thus you'd run out of DP spots.
Speaker: You can just have a bunch of $3 million dollar players on your team. You know, enough. You'd have six $3 million dollar players without having to blow up your entire budget. Without even going into DPs yet, right? Like you could have six $3 million dollar players and still have 12 million left to fill out the rest of your roster.
Speaker: And that's not even touching DPs, right? Right. Which is more than they have now. So if you're Adrian and you're thinking about your budget and you're thinking about your spend, you're like, Oh, the rule changes are coming in a year. Like why do this? I'm not going to react now for this year.
Speaker: If I don't need to, like, again I, again, haven't had these conversations with Adrian. So I'm not, I don't want to get into the possible mindset, right? These are, these are things that have to be discussed and thought about. And and the reality is that the roster rule changes are coming. They're being discussed and debated at the board of governors meeting at the all-star game in Charlotte.
Speaker: they the the The product strategy or sporting and competition committee presented ah potential plan for change. Obviously, this is all linked to the CBA, which makes it a little bit more difficult, but it's coming.
Speaker: So a strategy has to be set around that. And for an ownership group, they have to think about how much money do we want to invest in this product? When do we want to invest it?
Speaker: And if you think that this system is inefficient and the next system is going to be more efficient, I kind of sympathize with the idea of like, I'm not really going to commit money to this system. Now, that doesn't mean that that you couldn't do both, right? You can go and find really good $3 million dollar players that will be just as good at $3 million 2027 under the new rules as they are in under the current rules.
Speaker: you can mean maybe they'd be better Because then they wouldn't be DPs, right? you could do Exactly. you So there is a solution that could fit both sides of this argument. There are solutions out there. I don't know what the conversation is at the Sounders, but I do i do understand why there are owners in MLS who right now and over the last couple of years have...
Speaker: said, Whoa, let's slow down. I'm going to slow down my spend right now because i don't really see the benefit of spending. And I think that's the whole point of these changes is like, we want to create a league in which owners feel confident that if they spend, it could give them a better chance to win or to put a good product on the field.
Speaker: And, and that will lead to a better overall league. Yeah. Sounder at Heart has been around in one form or another since 2009. In 2026, though, we make a pretty significant evolution when we go analog. Yes, that's right. In the year of our Lord, 2026, we are publishing a real life magazine. We're calling this thing 4, as in Sounder at Heart 4.0. But we're stylizing it as IV because we absolutely love Roman numeral. And if you want to refer to it as IV, that's cool too. The first issue has a comic book style cover that was hand drawn by local artist Kevin Newber. Features by Tim Foss, Susie Rance, and Charlie Boehm. A statistical deep dive by Kat Bush. A Q&A with Brian Schmetzer. A column by G. Willow Wilson. And photographs by Noah Reif, Max Aquino, Mike Russell, and Jane Gershowitz. I could not possibly be more proud of the work everyone put into making this, and I think you're going to absolutely love it. If you'd like to get your hands on one of these limited edition copies, we're currently selling them for $15 on our website. Get yours now.
Speaker: But and at the same time, there is a short term cost to this, right? Because I think like the, said like, we'll just talk about the Sounders here. This is a team that did build a lot of its goodwill on being one of the more aggressive spending teams. And that wasn't necessarily Adrian's, uh,
Speaker: desire but that he had a majority, he was a minority owner and with a majority owner who wanted to spend, who wanted to make splashy signings, who wanted to go out and get Clinton Dempsey.
Speaker: But the Sounders also built a lot of their brand on that sort of attitude. And I think what we're seeing now, especially in Seattle, is that there was a a reluctant...
Speaker: willingness to go along with the current spend as long as the results were there. And as long as you kept winning things and as kept long as the, the, you could, you could point to the results and say like, it doesn't like, look, we're not spending, but we are winning. And I have heard,
Speaker: Sounders front office people tell me that so many times ah that it's like, ignore that we haven't made signings. Look at our results. Like, and fair enough. But now you look at the results and the results are, are bad. And then all of a sudden the warts start showing everywhere else because it's not just the roster spend. It's the way that they've been handling season ticket holders. It's the, you know, it's, it's all this other stuff, all this ancillary spending where it's all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker: ah Like i said, there's a lot of warts that are suddenly being shown. And all of a sudden you have this situation where... I think you can call it a fan revolt or or or a building fan revolt where there is an actual vote on the GM's job.
Speaker: And from where I sit right now, the best case scenario for Craig Weibel is that he, like, I don't see how he gets a majority to support him, but there is a possibility that they don't reach quorum, which would be 40% and that they don't hit the 67% that would have to vote no confidence for him to legally be fired.
Speaker: Now, what happens if he is, You know, he hits at 49% and so he technically can keep his job. That's going to be a fascinating thing. But i I do wonder if the Sounders are fully grasping the the short-term damage that's being done and the work that's going to have to be done to sort of rebuild the goodwill if, say, in two years or next season maybe even, that they suddenly have more spending flexibility and there's like, no, we're ready to start spending again.
Speaker: Ignore what just happened. What, what I love about all of this is that it's a microcosm of MLS, right? Yeah. Right. Because when I first went up to Seattle a couple of years ago to work on a piece, you and I had a conversation about the beginnings of this was showing. Right. And it was the winning was covering it up, but the attendance was going down and fans were saying, we can see that you guys are not putting as much into the product. that This is not the Sounders type of Sounders teams that we want to watch. we want to be entertained.
Speaker: We, we like seeing stars. We want to feel like you're always chasing trophies, not that you're kind of tripping and falling into trophies, which it kind of felt like the Sounders were doing or like, you know, kiss the feet of Christian rolled on because he's been such an incredibly important player at such a bargain deal that he's covered up other issues elsewhere within the team multiple over multiple seasons.
Speaker: But this is the, this is the crux of the, of the problem MLS faces is like, you have this You can have a team that's like not flashy at all and win.
Speaker: And the question is, is that enough? Is that enough to compel your your market? Is that enough to make the business work? And the answer in some markets is yes.
Speaker: In some markets, it is We don't care what players are on the field as long as we win. We're going to keep showing up and and the business works. But nationally, we know because we've seen the TV ratings, not anymore on Apple, we just have to trust MLS, which I don't.
Speaker: But like people aren't people aren't tuning in, which is why the media deal doesn't exist. And so this is a microcosm of the problem in Seattle. it's it's we Winning in MLS isn't enough for us. We want to be entertained.
Speaker: We want you to compel us to show up. and And winning was there and it was enough to compel us. But as soon as that crack showed, as soon as it started to fall apart, the fans finally had the leverage to say, we're done with this. You you were lucky the last few years. we stuck Most of us stuck around, not all of us.
Speaker: No, but you know most. yeah but most and And now we're saying enough is enough. And I think that's kind of where MLS is. nationally. It's like, yeah, they have these little pops of attention and, and then people go away. You don't, you're not compelling me enough to watch. So I'm out.
Speaker: Let me know when you're good enough. Let me know when you matter. And, and it's like, well, what's going to make it matter? Like if next year the rules change, this is the actual argument that Adrian would be making, I think, or a lot of owners are making in the, in the room.
Speaker: if If I build a team, if I spend $35 million, $40 million dollars on a team, that would put me on the level of a lot of really good teams in Europe.
Speaker: And let's say I i let's say i plucked Feyenoord out of Holland and I dropped it into Seattle, a team that you know, has been very successful the last few years in in Holland that has qualified for Europe, that won a trophy in Europe, no big name stars, high quality soccer.
Speaker: Would that be enough for Sounders fans? Would 45,000 people start showing up if it didn't have a big name that popped, but they played great soccer and like high level soccer?
Speaker: Which, by the way, I'll just say I'll just jump in. I think that would actually resonate in Seattle. But the reason it would resonate in Seattle is because it has it's not built around one spectacular player. It's built around probably 10 players who would be on DP contracts in MLS right now.
Speaker: Correct. And so it would be like, I think Seattle is probably very well positioned as a market anyway, to capitalize on this sort of dispersed, like give me $30 million dollars and I can spend it however I want kind of model as opposed to give me an unlimited amount of money, but I can only, but ah most of that is coming out of my pocket or what, i don't know how they're going structure that. Bingo, right? Like you're right.
Speaker: that would probably work in Seattle and it would probably work in Nashville and it would probably work in Cincinnati and it probably worked in Portland. Portland's not, it would not work. I'm just joking. Yeah. But like, but like the argument that other owners are saying is bingo, let's create a system where you can do that.
Speaker: where' Where soccer, the level of soccer matters, and it'll work in some markets, but in other markets, they need the stars. And that's why you don't get rid of DPs. And you will give space and room for Miami to do what it's doing now, but, you know, in um in a less roundabout way of doing it.
Speaker: And you give space for New York City and LA and LA and Toronto and Chicago to go spend for stars that they feel like they need to resonate in those bigger markets. in addition to spending the this the same $30 million dollars over the course of the whole other roster.
Speaker: And you've now done both, right? You've put a superior product on the field, soccer wise, and you've also put stars, more stars on the field to bring in casual fans and general fans.
Speaker: And, and you're saying, I trust that soccer fans are, The soccer fans, the MLS diehards and the the the soccer diehards will recognize higher quality, even if it's not bigger names.
Speaker: Right. And I know that we still need, Messi has proven that star power still matters and matters maybe be more than ever in a generation where people follow players more than they follow teams more often, that we still need those stars.
Speaker: Let's build a system that encourages both. That's why I think this is such a fascinating time because we're like, you can no longer run from this issue. It is here.
Speaker: It is, it is happening in some of the most important markets in MLS. It's happening in Seattle. It's happening in Atlanta where Atlanta spending a crap ton of money and they stink.
Speaker: The worst team in the league. because Because the system is broken. So here you have one of the most important markets in MLS that's not spending at all. And now it's finally falling apart and the fans are pissed.
Speaker: And you have another really important market in MLS that is spending a crap ton of money and stinks because it doesn't matter how much you spend when you only focus it on three DPs and three rolls of the dice with the U22s.
Speaker: And so they stink. and And their fans are pissed and their fans are pissed and not showing up. And it's like, Hey guys, guess what this means? It's broken. Fix it.
Speaker: And that's kind of what yeah MLS is doing now. and And that's good. It's encouraging. And and I'm hopeful that, not optimistic, hopeful that they get these changes over the line for 2027, because I, I just think the longer it takes to get there, the bigger the risk is that people go away and don't come back or yeah that people find something else to latch onto coming out of the world cup, which they're already doing.
Speaker: And by the way, the Premier League has never been more accessible and the and League of MECs has never been more accessible. And ah there is no shortage of places to watch soccer right now.
Speaker: And MLS cannot assume that they have a captive audience. so And it's going to get more accessible, right? right they're gonna play yeah they're go Eventually, they're going to start playing regular season games here. i think MLS needs to pray that League of MECs doesn't wake up Because at some point they'll wake up and realize, actually, we don't need MLS and we don't need leagues cut for access to the American market. You know, we'll, we'll centralize our commercial rights. We're the most watched league and in the United States.
Speaker: We'll centralize our commercial and media rights. We'll get a bigger media deal than the premier league because we get better TV numbers. We'll start playing regular season games in Houston and LA and Dallas and Phoenix. We don't need MLS. And then MLS is really in trouble if they haven't figured their stuff out by the time league MX wakes up.
Speaker: So, you know, all of this is happening right now. Right. And, and it's like, em that's what's been, that's why I've been shouting. I feel like a crazy person. And I wrote a book about it because it's like, wake up, wake up, please.
Speaker: Not to get too distracted here, but did you get the sense that the book worked as a wake up call or was it sort of like, i don't know. Do you think, I mean, that would just be such a egotistical thing to say.
Speaker: um i I think, i think that, um, I look, I think that, i think that it, these are not, I'm not introducing problems to these guys. They know them. They, they know what's happening. They're having these conversations. I had, i think one of them among the impactful things that happened was that I had conversations with these owners in person about this stuff while I was reporting the book. I think that mattered. Having these conversations, developing relationships with some of these owners.
Speaker: I really respect. And by the way, i I really respect hearing what they have to say about it it it. It helped me get to that place where I can say, I understand why Adrian might not be spending a ton of money right now, or the Red Bulls, or all these other teams that say like, m why, right? Like it's actually, you have a high as high of a chance of messing it up and being Atlanta United or Toronto FC as you do of being inter-Miami. And really you don't even have a good chance of being Miami because there's only one messy, right? So like, yeah I get all that, but but I do think that, yes, I do think that the book,
Speaker: I know that some owners read the book and I've heard from them and And I think that that is helpful. um But I think they, you know, they're spending millions of dollars. They're losing millions of dollars. they They understand the problem better than I do because they see the books and I don't get to see the full books.
Speaker: um What I think, what I will say is that like, what encourages me to keep reporting and writing about it is that I do think it's making an impact. And I do think that it influences how people think about actions. And i get text messages from people that say like, hey, like,
Speaker: that was a really strong article or, Hey, like what, the way you phrased it in this chapter, like made an impact so-and-so. Right. And so like, because, because I think it's about, sometimes it's like,
Speaker: sometimes presenting the land, the whole landscape pulling back from ah conversation owner might be having with this owner or that owner that they trust and and so they see things through these in these small pictures you know what i was trying to do was to pull back and lay it all out there together to say you know premier league nbc deal lasso and wrexham and the pop culture thing usl trying to do pro rel and can they pull some of those fans away from mls
Speaker: League MX and the Apollo deal and and the the giant, the sleeping giant that exists there, you know, the the relevant deal and what's going to happen once games do start being played here and it will happen.
Speaker: Like I wanted them to see all of this to say, like the walls are closing in amidst these other conversations that you're having about your problems day to day in your specific markets and in the league and and try to like maybe help I don't know. I don't want to say help push it along, but like I'm rooting for them to get it right. Like it's. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I, I, I am too. ah And I would like to think that the world cup served as a you know, the world cup is a once ah one of a kind event, obviously, but I do think it showed the appetite for soccer. Like it's, it's, it's, I think it's the first time that American markets saw that soccer could be like the Superbowl. And it was funny to me that,
Speaker: In the lead up to the World Cup, we had local organizers saying like, it's going to be like six World Cups and i or six Super Bowls. And I would think that that's such an absurd way of framing it because I read it as, sure, it's like six worldwide TV audiences for this world for the Super Bowl. It's not to be like having the Super Bowl six times.
Speaker: But it actually did kind of end up being like having six Super Bowls in your market. during the world cup. And I would like to think that was an eyeopening experience. for It was an eyeopening experience for me as someone who's very much in the, in the mix here.
Speaker: But I would also think for MLS owners to say like, no, there's this worldwide audience that if we present a world, a worldwide relevant product that we can capture this audience right here in the United States. Bingo. And like, that's, that's where the title came from of the messy effect, right? Cause the first,
Speaker: idea of that for them was messy. It was like, Oh, if we take the biggest star in the world and stick him into any stadium in major league soccer, he will sell it out. And it was like, it countered some of the ideas that came from 2015 and BCG of like DPs don't work and they don't matter. You should move away from DPs.
Speaker: You got to push back on retirement league, lean into Miguel Almiron's everyone. Go get a Miguel Almiron. Like you can like just roll over in bed and find Miguel Almiron. Like, Right. And that, and guess what happened? They chased, everyone chased Miguel Maron and Miguel Maron was a fricking unicorn, man.
Speaker: Like, and, and so like all of that stuff kind of happens. And, and I think this was another example of like the idea of the messy effect, which is like, when you put the best players and the best product out there, there is a huge audience for it. And and MLS is not going to be able to put the best product out there, but it it can, it can put a better product out there and it can go chase bigger stars.
Speaker: it could be fine it can It can go spend the same amount of money it's spending now, exact same amount of money it's spending now and put a far better product on the field and expect that to lead. And, and again,
Speaker: this is the question that every owner asks me when I have this conversation is like, well, why do you think that'll guarantee a bigger audience? Cause that's what it comes down to. You know, if if you're arguing to a certain extent, but depending on what market you're in, like most owners cannot spend more and sustain the losses.
Speaker: And so they're saying like, can you guarantee that the audiences will be big enough that we'll get the TV revenue we need to justify the higher spend. And that's why like my argument is kind of morphed to,
Speaker: spend what you're spending now, spend it better and but smarter. And, and other teams can go be, and like, and this goes to the, and I don't, this will go a slippery slope, but where we, we basically talked around it. Let's put a title to it.
Speaker: This goes to the, to the, the solution of super teams, right? Like, and MLS is the only league in the world that thinks that it doesn't need super teams to be successful.
Speaker: and it And it points to like, you know, MLS loves to say like, we've had X number of champions in X number of years and that shows our systems working. And it's like, okay, but like the Bundesliga is super popular because it's got two teams that do really well and yet it's still successful.
Speaker: Um, Premier League, it's six to eight, however you want to look at it. Spain has three teams. Holland has three teams. The NFL has super teams.
Speaker: Major League Baseball has super teams. The NBA has super teams. yeah The NHL has super teams. But MLS doesn't need them. so Well, and I think the difference between the NBA, NFL,
Speaker: whatever the American teams is that it's not set in stone who those super teams are. And I think that's sort of the, like that's, that I think would be the aspirational goal of MLS. And, and I suppose you could argue like, well, isn't that what LAFC and I guess to a certain degree, the Sounders and inner Miami are sort of like the, but no, they aren't. I mean, those teams are just like very clearly just rising slightly above the chafe. Like they are just barely standing out.
Speaker: ah through sort of like grinding. There is no super teamness. Maybe you can argue that Miami is the exception. Miami right now is the exception. But like everyone else is, did you hit on your DP or not?
Speaker: Right. LAFC hit on its DPs and therefore it's a super team. The Galaxy, when they hit on their DPs, they were a super team. And then they and then the DPs regressed and they weren't. And by the way, Miami's not even leading the league right now. Like for all their super team-ness.
Speaker: Right. Right? Because they can only be so good. Because when you have that much money committed, then there's no money left for anywhere else. Right? So like, and and again, there's the other thing of this, which is like, you know, I had a long... I did a podcast for the athletic that I would encourage people to go look at, uh, and listen to after this podcast.
Speaker: Um, and part of it was a conversation with Brad Sims. And I think he brought up some really important points specific to the super team, which you could argue, of course he would, he's NYCFC, which would be, would benefit from a super team.
Speaker: But, you know, I think like, ah a big boost for any professional league in America is that we have a playoff system and and that's the ultimate equalizer.
Speaker: If you have a one-off do or die game, then Atlanta United, that was, you know, whatever it was, 30, whatever points behind inner Miami. And it was a best of three series that they beat them in.
Speaker: Like playoffs are a competitive balance equalizer that don't, that doesn't exist in Europe. The number of champions of the Premier League would be different if at the end of the year, the top eight teams in the Premier League played a playoff and that would determine the champion.
Speaker: And the same in the Bundesliga. Bayern Munich wouldn't have won all of the games, all of the titles that they won if at the end of the year, the top eight teams of the Bundesliga played in a playoff because upsets happen, man.
Speaker: Upsets happen in playoffs. And, and so, with MLS, you can open this idea up to super teams and still have ah a pretty good team that can upset one of the super teams in a one-off game in a semifinal and go and win a title.
Speaker: And like, I think that that's something that and MLS continues to lean into and should lean into. Like the playoffs are super compelling because it's the really, the only big games of consequence in league play But it also is it's wildly entertaining and it'll still be entertaining even if you change the system to allow super teams.
Speaker: I think you're going to have super compelling playoffs because you're going to have four or five super teams that are all going to have to play each other for the title at the end of the year. It's not a race throughout the regular season and in MLS.
Speaker: Yeah, it's I mean, it's an it's an absolutely fascinating period to be following MLS. Do you think there's any i don't know. I would imagine the goal is probably to get the CBA done before Berg to circle it back before Berg takes over. Is that a no, no, is that no no no, no chance for that. the The goal is to get I mean, I would say that the I don't want to even say this. i don't want to speak for the league.
Speaker: I believe that it is critical that for the league to get the CBA done ahead of the summer of 2027 so that it can unveil the new um MLS or MLS 3.0, however you want to think about it, all at once together.
Speaker: The calendar flip, the roster rule changes, the competition structure and say, and and and what happens if you get all those rules done in time for MLS 3.0 to launch together in the summer of 27?
Speaker: That means you can actually go and spend in that first transfer window of 2027, And so you're you're kind of doubly announcing yourself to fans because everyone can go out and spend a bunch more in the transfer window. It has that kind of same similar feel of Saudi when it was like, oh my God, Saudi is actually like involved in the transfer market in a really big way. We have to pay attention to them. If if all of a sudden casual soccer fans started to see 30, 40, 50 deals happening in a transfer window from MLS teams. And they're saying, Hey, we're launching a new MLS this summer. And look at all the money we're spending in the transfer.
Speaker: Like all, if you don't change the roster rules and you're flipping the calendar, it's just the same league. It's just the same league starting at a different time. And then you will have to wait a whole nother year till 28 to get that summer transfer window.
Speaker: And by then, by the way, Messi will be walking away and you'll have missed this change happening with Messi on the field and MLS, which is another whammy of a miss, right? Like, so that has to be the goal.
Speaker: I don't know that all the owners are aligned on the idea of like, we should get this deal done by 2027. That's insane to me. It's totally insane to me. That's totally insane. By the way, the CBA expires middle the, the middle of their first season.
Speaker: So there, you know, if there is this concept of, Oh, well we're going to wind it down and we're going to have more leverage because we're winding it down. and and they, they don't, you know, they miss the forest for the trees. Like, yeah,
Speaker: it doesn't need to be a very long work stoppage for, for to it to upset and ruin your first season on this flipped calendar and your playoffs happening in may when everyone's all these things, like it would just be such a mind blowing miss.
Speaker: But I also thought that they would get it, you know, get things ready for the world cup and they missed that too. So The goal the goal has to be has to be taking advantage of the summer of 2027, going out and buying a bunch of players, relaunching your league all at once, and not making this a slow drip of change where you announce the changes in 25, the World Cup comes in 26, you take a break, you come back, you're right into League's Cup, no one's watching.
Speaker: you know, you're selling out of stadiums, but no one's still, no one's watching on TV. And then you go into 27, you don't change anything about the league other than the calendar flip. So you can't really change the rosters until 28.
Speaker: Finally, in 28, you change the rosters. And by the way, now you're trying to go, you're going back to market for media rights in 29. So you're going to have a half a season to convince new media partners that it's worth buying you at double the price that they're seeking per year.
Speaker: So it's in the best interest of everyone to get this deal done by summer of 27, whether it happens or not, We'll see. Stay tuned. you What do you think the big... and I'll let you get out of here soon. I appreciate all the time you've been doing here. but ah What do you think the big sort of internal fight is? I assume...
Speaker: that there's like from the player side, you would think opening up the check, like just sort of, cause there's going to be probably more money. You got to assume there's going to more money going into this system. There's going to more flexibility.
Speaker: i would think the players would be like, yeah, give us some of that. Uh, So I would think that the like what what where do you think the the fight is coming? Is it just the league wants to be careful about how much more money they put into the into the pool? I think there's some of that. It's like you don't want to once you so once you open a door, set a precedent to something there. It's hard to close that door. Right. So I think there's some of that. I think a big sticking point is going to be minimum salaries.
Speaker: Um, the WNBA minimums just went up to 350,000 a year, I think something like that. And MLS minimums are 90. Um, i imagine that's going to be one of the big fights and sticking points, understandably so.
Speaker: So like there are some little things here, but I think if you are, I think it's really, i was talking to somebody the other day that put this really well, which is like, if you can't win a negotiation in which you're handing the players, uh, uh,
Speaker: proposal that includes losing the maximum salary number, senior max salary, opening up spending for more, aligning the transfer windows so that players contracts are coming up when the vast majority of the world does its business. Like all of these things that are super beneficial for players that you can't get some some of the things you want in return, like also that they should probably open up free agency so that they can fully create a market in which MLS teams are buying and selling more actively, like things that, that create these moments of roster building that are really important and transparency, all these things that that are better for the league, better for the players, to your point, like this is this.
Speaker: And I wrote this the other day, like, Both sides need to come to the table with the idea of getting this deal done for December 27 because it's beneficial for both sides. And it becomes a lose-lose if they don't.
Speaker: It really becomes a lose-lose if they don't. Yeah, it's hard to envision what the possible... it like The degree to which it would be an own goal of not getting this deal done. And I honestly think even by the summer of 27 feels a little late.
Speaker: Like ideally it's going to be done before the summer so that teams go into the off season for sure. Knowing exactly what they need to do. Right. Like this is, if they're waiting until the summer, that's going to be no cap sort of a, yeah, you'd have to feel pretty confident. The deal is going to get done during the sprint season. And and it's helpful that you have a sprint season, you know,
Speaker: you know, there's, there's some contracts timed out for that already, all those things, right? Like the hope is there that it happens, but like, this is one of those words, like, and I know this is so much easier to say than it is like, it's because there's a history there and the PA doesn't get along and you know, with the league and they've had these epically, but like, and you guys know it in Seattle better than anywhere because of the club world cup and the demonstrations and all of that. But like the reality is that the relationship was actually improving and it had improved going into the deal And then COVID happened.
Speaker: And then there was the lockout after COVID. And then there was, you know, there was the renegotiation. Yeah. The lead, the the union agreed to push back because of the losses of COVID. And then once they, they pushed back by a year and then the league came back again and locked them out in order to put a force majeure in, which just completely blew up that relationship again. and so,
Speaker: But my point being that like, you have to put this to the side, this beef or this lack of trust, this distrust that exists. And I really think part of it needs to be that there are different people at the table.
Speaker: Like, I think that's that's something that's important for Larry Berg to figure out and figure out quickly. But like, I think that you have to create an environment in which you you're sitting down and saying like, this is not the time for us to worry about who wins this negotiation.
Speaker: Like right we, we can both win this. This moment is critical for the success of this league in, in America. And if we don't get this right together,
Speaker: we're both digging out of ah a really big hole. That's already a bit, we're already in this hole. Like if we, if we can't figure this out, the hole is only going to get deeper. And that's the that's just the reality. And I think, I hope that all sides can, can see that and that they don't get lost in this idea of quote unquote, winning the negotiation that that you so often hear coming out of a CBA.
Speaker: It's so frustrating. And I just hope that they don't get lost in that. And it did seem like that was sort of the, the sort of the way it worked. The last few where the players felt like they won the 2019, I guess, ah negotiations. And so the owners felt like really like they needed to get one over as me.
Speaker: Turned out they had an excuse to do it right away. Right. And it's like, let's like, you've got to lose that attitude because it's, it's both, both sides are going to lose if, if we get past the summer of 27. And if there's a work stoppage or if there's issues in January of 28, going into February, and you can't come back out of the winter, your first ever winter break with action, like it's just so much that can go wrong. So we'll see, man. I really believe that enough owners are aware of the stakes here.
Speaker: They'll get it done. i have faith. Um, I really think that like, i don't, I don't discount that there are a lot of really, really, really smart people in that room. Like Adrian Hanauer really smart individual.
Speaker: And like a lot of these conversations I've had with owners, you know, you come away being like, man, like, you know, like Jose Moss is the the CEO of Moss Tech. Go look at the performance of Moss Tech under Jose Moss since he took over as a CEO.
Speaker: Like it has just been... sh You know, he's, ah he's been an incredibly successful businessman, you know? So it's like, there are people in the room that understand these, these problems. And I hope that they, um i hope that they are able to get to this solution.
Speaker: Yeah. So do i I do hope. And, and hopefully the sounder, mean I mean, I would like to think that this sort of current situation, the sounders find them in themselves in is a little bit of a mirage or a temporary sort of holding where, know,
Speaker: Look, I would love to give Adrian credit for... ah just holding his powder until there was a time to actually spend it. It doesn't feel that way right now. ah But I mean, I'd like to think that that's possible.
Speaker: I could probably talk to you for another hour about the just the sounders and what is going on here. But ah you've given us enough of your time, Paul. I really appreciate it. Your book is still available.
Speaker: People can still buy it. It's still relevant as ever. It's right there on your your bookshelf. The messy effect. i I read it. I loved it. I thought it was a really compelling read. i I breezed through it, honestly, in ah in a week or so.
Speaker: And that was reading it on an iPhone. That is not how I would recommend reading anything. That is not a good book reading experience, I'll tell you. no but but I appreciated that. I appreciated the effort you put into it. didn't mind. I got through it, and it was important. And, of course, it was also we also exerted it inside 4, the Sounder at Heart magazine. i hope you I hope you were okay with the way that we pieced it together. and Yes, and I have the copy here, which is great. I was waiting for it when I got back from the World Cup, so thank you for that, too. Nice.
Speaker: ah Yeah, I guess... We could have talked about the World Cup, too. But anyway, Paul, as always, you're doing great work. I love that the allocation disorder lives on in our hearts, if not in audio form. It felt like it here. Yeah, it did This felt like a did this did feel like an i did it. It did. I felt like my old allocation disorder days.
Speaker: Well, I I'm going to take that as a compliment. So I hope you do. thanks for for joining us, Paul. but Where can people, people can follow you on blue sky. Are you on Twitter too? I'm on blue sky. I'm on, I'm still on Twitter. Unfortunately, I'm on Instagram. oh You can find me in all of those things and at the athletic as always. And hopefully back here soon, we'll all keep an eye on the Sounders. I know you will be too. We'll come back. We'll talk. We'll, we'll see what how things evolve. We'll do a whole Sounders thing. Uh, but all right, well, Paul, thank you for doing this. Uh, I'm Jeremiah Shan.
Speaker: This is no Saudi at this part of the Sounder Heart podcast network and we will catch next time.
Speaker: Let's go at Sounders.
