Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Veg Growing In Cool Climates - Emmanuela Prigioni
35 Plays3 years ago
Emmanuela Prigioni (Manu) is a soil ecologist and the coordintor of peri-urban farming social enterprise 'Farm It Forward' that is based in the cool - temperate region of the Blue Mountains NSW. Join host Mykal Hoare as he chats with Emmanuela about all things cool climate vegetable growing. Manu is pasionate about the health of her soils, learn how she achieves healthy produce while improving her soils in a cool climate.
CLICK HERE FOR PATREON
________
Episode Links:
Emmanuela Prigioni instagram
www.farmitforward.com.au
Farm It Forward Instagram
________
Growing Media Links:
GROWING MEDIA WEBSITE
Instagram - @Growingmediaaus
Facebook - @Growingmediaaus
_______
Mykal's Links:
Instagram - @mykalhoare
Facebook - @mykalhoare
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Support
00:00:03
Speaker
Growing Media is a proudly independent podcast produced by me, Michael Hall, with zero corporate or network interference in our content. But this means we are running on the smell of an oily rag over here. So if you like the show and would like to make a small contribution, you could head over to our Patreon. You can find the link in our show notes.
Acknowledgment of Traditional Land Owners
00:00:28
Speaker
The producers of growing media recognise the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded and pay respects to Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.
00:00:43
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Growing Media.
Gardening Tips for Cooler Climates
00:00:46
Speaker
My name is Michael Haw and today I'm chatting with Emmanuela Prejioni. Huh? That name sounds familiar. Well, that is right. She is back in the house and she is here to give us all the good gardening tips on growing veg in our cooler climate.
00:01:02
Speaker
Now, I know you may not live in a cooler climate, but stick around because it's an interesting chat that relates to pretty much gardening everywhere, also mixed in with tips specifically for living and growing in a cooler climate. As a landscape gardener, I'm often faced with questions from my clients about their veggies. You know, most of the time it comes down to the climactic conditions that we live in.
Understanding Climate Zones for Gardening Success
00:01:26
Speaker
What difference does that make to veg growing?
00:01:29
Speaker
Well, rather a lot actually. For starters, you've got to be super prepared to make the most out of your growing season. So that means, you know, getting things in the ground at the right time. But what else? Well, that is what Manny is here to give us the dirt on. She has spent the last number of years perfecting her craft.
00:01:49
Speaker
through her social enterprise, Farm It Forward, which you can hear all about on episode four of the Growing Media Podcast. Go back and check it out if you haven't already. It is really interesting. Another super interesting fact about Manny is that she is our first return guest to the podcast.
Adapting Gardening to Climate Change
00:02:06
Speaker
Hey, Emanuela, how have you been? Woo-hoo, I'm your first return guest. That's it. I've been well. Thank you. That's good. So I guess to kick it off, how long have you been growing veg for?
00:02:21
Speaker
I have been growing veg for about six or seven years. Lovely. And what is so important about climate when it comes to growing good veg?
00:02:36
Speaker
So it's interesting because I used to live in the lower mountains and now I live in the mid-blue mountains and so I have changed climate zones and climate is super important knowing your climate zone is super important when you start growing things because
00:02:55
Speaker
There's no point trying to grow something that grows well in a subtropical climate zone in a temperate climate zone, for instance. So down where I was before was a warm temperate to subtropical zone, a little bit like Sydney.
00:03:10
Speaker
And now where I am now is more of a cool temperate climate. And when you go further and further up, of course, altitude makes things cooler and cooler. So if you go up to Kachuma, which is in the Upper Blue Mountains, that then becomes cool mountain climate, so cooler still. So that's really key is to know your climate zone and what type of climate you have in order to grow the right things.
Challenges in Cooler Climates: Timing and Crop Selection
00:03:39
Speaker
You know, it's really interesting. I work as a gardener within the upper mountains. And, you know, I always get people saying, oh, can I put this in here? My friend down in the lower mountains has it and it's growing well. And I kind of go, oh, hang on. Just a second. Because especially in the mountains, it changes just so dramatically.
00:04:01
Speaker
Extremely, yeah, for altitude adjust temperatures so much that within a relatively short distance we have so many different climate zones. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Which is good because it means that, you know, we can kind of get a taste of everything in the mountains. But I mean, for veggie growing in a cool temperate climate where you are, it does make it a little bit more tricky.
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah absolutely so there are certain things that I used to grow down where I was before like you know.
00:04:31
Speaker
avocados and peanuts even and things like this that I definitely can't grow here but also the other way around so there are things that I was dreaming of growing down in a more subtropical climate that I couldn't things like almonds things like cherries things like scarlet runner bean
00:04:57
Speaker
For instance, things like this don't do well in a hot climate and prefer a cool climate to grow in. Much more productive. Yeah, exactly. No, wonderful. So what is our biggest challenge here? Is it timing? Are we talking preparation? Getting the seeds in the ground? What is our biggest thing to think about when we're talking about veg growing?
00:05:21
Speaker
It's timing. A lot of it is timing. So what you want to be doing is making the most of your warm growing season in order not to end up with nothing in the cold season. So basically something that people are not necessarily very savvy with is when to sow seeds of
00:05:47
Speaker
things that take a long time to grow things like cabbage and cauliflower and broccoli these seeds need to go in at a very counterintuitive time in order to get your cauliflower or cabbage or whatever
00:06:02
Speaker
in time, in winter rather than getting it in the following spring. When is that time? Yeah, when is that time? So it is usually in mid-summer, even sort of beginning to mid-summer is when you would sow the seeds for these.
00:06:20
Speaker
That way you're giving them a really good headway by giving them some warm weather to grow in for quite some time and they'll be quite advanced by the time the weather cools. And that means you'll get your head of broccoli or your head of cauliflower in time without the whole lot just kind of going to flower in spring. Going to seed, yeah.
00:06:42
Speaker
Well, you've taught me something because that is counterintuitive, but I'm going to try that. Absolutely. Another thing is, you know, if you have a warm north facing windowsill or if you have a greenhouse at home,
00:06:59
Speaker
putting your tomatoes in with a heat mat underneath them maybe is also at a really counterintuitive time you know you'd want to put your tomatoes in in about August yeah I wouldn't think of putting tomato seeds in in August but that's when you want them to baby them in a warm environment with a decent sunlight and
00:07:22
Speaker
and then put them out in November on show days when usually people say to put your tomatoes out in a cold climate so that any risk of cold weather is passed. So show days, first or second of November, when's the Melbourne Cup?
00:07:39
Speaker
Well, of course, you know, nup to the cup, but it's obviously gives us a bit of a good indication of when we need to be getting those tomatoes in the ground.
Creating Microclimates and Soil Improvement
00:07:47
Speaker
Now, that's got me thinking, though, when you were talking about, you know, north facing warm, microclimate can play a big part in veg growing, too. We can create microclimates to enable better growing conditions for our veg.
00:08:04
Speaker
Definitely yes and you can create microclimates if you know a little bit about thermal mass so you know if you know which materials actually trap heat in and radiate it out things like rocks and pavers and things like this they're extremely useful in cool climates in order to create that warm microclimate to grow in.
00:08:27
Speaker
And what about polytunnels? Do you do anything with farm at Ford or personally at home with polytunnels? We haven't as yet. We use nets, you know, for some areas where we do have a lot of wildlife need to protect our crops. We have hoop tunnels with really, really fine veggie netting that doesn't trap things in it.
00:08:52
Speaker
And we use that, but we've never actually used greenhouse plastic or anything like this. Up in Katoomba, we will be trialing because we have a plot at Headspace in Katoomba. We will be trialing fleece, so you can make fleece tunnels. And that protects crops just a little bit from hard frosts, which you can get in Katoomba.
00:09:20
Speaker
Down here where we are in the mid mountains it's cool temperate, the frosts are hard but we just grow things that are frost hardy and so we don't have to cover them up. That's another good point as well as you know choosing the right crop for the right place.
00:09:36
Speaker
Absolutely. And, you know, seasonality is really important as well. People need to understand that they can't get tomatoes in the middle of winter. We need to get back in contact with this, with these rhythms and cycles, knowing what's in season and what to eat that's in season so that you're getting it locally and you're growing it locally.
00:09:59
Speaker
And also, your body needs that type of food at that time. Absolutely. We've evolved to have tomatoes in summer, not tomatoes in the middle of winter, even though Mr. Coles thinks, you know, we should have them all the time. That's right. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's quite important. And it's really important resilience knowledge as well, you know, to know what to grow when is essential.
00:10:23
Speaker
Well, that's it. Now, let's get our hands into that dirt, into that soil. And I know you are very passionate about the health of your soil as we all should be. Let's talk about some ways that we can improve our soil. Now, I know that, you know, a technique in permaculture is often like thrown out about the chop and drop, you know.
00:10:46
Speaker
Now, in our cooler climate where I live, the chop and drop, though it does work, it doesn't work as successfully as it does in warmer climates. What are some ways that we can improve our soil in a cooler climate?
00:11:00
Speaker
So I am a little bit of a compost addict, let's face it. So I have to say, and this is not something, this is not just me. So I studied a lot
Benefits of Homemade Compost
00:11:11
Speaker
under Dr Elaine Enum, who's a microbiologist and a doctor of soil microbiology. And she used to drill us about compost.
00:11:24
Speaker
Really important is that homemade compost. And I'm not talking about the stuff that you get in bags. I'm talking about stuff that you make yourself and that is really just teeming with beneficial soil microorganisms.
00:11:43
Speaker
Why is it teeming with beneficial soil microorganisms? It's basically perfect habitat for them because of the organic material you've added. You may have added fruit scraps that contain quite a bit of nitrogen and moisture, and you may have added dried autumn leaves, for instance, that contain a lot of lignin and carbon, so really, really, really
00:12:10
Speaker
beneficial to house fungi. So you really do need a fantastic mix of fungi and bacteria and all, everything in between, the things that eat fungi and bacteria, the things that eat the things that eat fungi and bacteria. So you need a huge diversity. The more diverse your environment, your soil environment is, the more nutrient dense your plants will be.
00:12:38
Speaker
So before you mentioned not using composts out of a packet, why is that? Well, the reason for this is, look, you can use it in combination with your homemade compost. But the reason why we can't just use compost that comes in a packet is that in Australia and in most parts of the world, anything that is a bagged product is pasteurized, which means that it really doesn't have much living in it.
00:13:09
Speaker
And that makes sense to the manufacturers of the product because they want a product that's even, they want you to know exactly what's in there, they want it to all be uniform for their customers. But that does come to the detriment of the product. All of those good microorganisms.
00:13:29
Speaker
Some bagged products even have the opposite, have things that repel those good microorganisms added to them. So, you know, things like lime and sulfur and things that are chemically maybe, you know, a good idea.
00:13:46
Speaker
biologically, they're not. So we've, you know, very recent soil scientists have found that you can't adjust or you can't just chemically adjust the pH of soil without thinking of the biology living in there, the living things in the soil. So let's say, you know, things like lime and Gibson, some people go really overboard adding these chemicals, you know, these
00:14:11
Speaker
minerals to their soil, not realising that they can be detrimental to the life in the soil, to the biology in the soil. Good compost and a good diverse organic matter will attract the beneficial microbes that will adjust pH accordingly.
Using Organic Fertilizers for Soil Health
00:14:32
Speaker
Now, if we translate this back to our veggie growing, obviously with a lovely healthy soil with a large diversity of microorganisms in it, it enables the plant to be able to access those nutrients that they need to be able to grow.
00:14:50
Speaker
I guess that aspect of plants being really the real type of solar panels, so they get energy from the sun to produce sugars. And a percentage of those sugars is to build their own bodies, but a large percentage of it goes to feed the microbiology in the soil.
00:15:13
Speaker
and swap those little critters for nutrients. So it's really important to grow those nutrients in your soil, sorry, grow those microorganisms in your soil and provide habitat for them in order for your plant to be happy. Would you say that veggie gardening is almost more about growing healthy soil than it is about growing healthy plants?
00:15:37
Speaker
Well, yes, it starts absolutely starts and ends there because the healthier and more diverse your soil, the healthier and more nutrient dense your plant will be.
00:15:51
Speaker
Obviously our veggies are very hungry plants and they need quite a lot of nutrients to support themselves and to produce the fruit and veg that you want to eat. Now a way to do that is by using synthetic fertilizers but I did want to have a quick chat about synthetic fertilizers not being so great. Essentially what they are is a byproduct of the fossil fuel industry quite often
00:16:15
Speaker
And they are also a form of salt. Now we all know when you put salt on something, it creates barren soil and ends up harming those soil microbes that we've just been chatting about.
00:16:31
Speaker
So what I like to use is a pelletized chicken manure or blood and bone in combination with a seaweed solution. Once a week, I'm applying my organic fertilizers. And if you are still building up all that beautiful soil, this is a really good way to add to the soil.
00:16:48
Speaker
but B, to feed those plants. So you're feeding the soil to feed those plants, not feeding the plants directly with a chemical fertilizer. Got that out of the system. So I suppose that brings us to pests and diseases. What are we doing? I know you're not going to be using herbicides for your weeds, but that's fine. Obviously pick them out of the ground. But what about your pesticides? How are you combating your pests?
00:17:17
Speaker
So a lot of it is keeping things in balance. So we don't often get big infestations of anything in particular. Yes, there can be climatic instances where, you know, last year, for instance, when we got that torrential rain, incredible amount of rain,
00:17:42
Speaker
There was a huge overpopulation of slugs, for instance, but you'd want to really look at what controls slugs naturally and how do we attract them. So a lot of the time, adding good organic matter in your soil means that you're also attracting the lizards and the skinks that like to eat the slugs.
00:18:04
Speaker
So if you have a diversity, you know, diversity in the soil but also diversity in what you're growing, so you're not growing the same type of thing all over your garden, growing a couple of different varieties of the same vegetable perhaps, so you're not putting all your eggs in one basket.
Natural Pest Management Strategies
00:18:24
Speaker
For instance, this year
00:18:26
Speaker
With our cucumbers, we grow three different varieties of cucumbers. Two of them are quite wonderful heirloom varieties. One is a Lebanese cucumber and the other one is an Armenian cucumber. And that means that often pests, if there is a big overpopulation,
00:18:44
Speaker
It will affect, it can just affect the one variety and not the other. Some are more resistant than others. So that's really important is diversity. Another thing is
00:18:58
Speaker
Usually, if pests have come and infested a plant, that's old mama nature trying to decompose the plant back because it's not thriving. So in a natural ecosystem, the plants that are really affected by one particular type of pest are usually the ones that are not thriving and need to be decomposed back in the soil to make the whole environment healthy again.
00:19:25
Speaker
And so it's often a better perspective to see it that way and go, okay, why is this plant getting attacked? What's the soil doing? Is it healthy soil it's growing in? Was it set back by something earlier on in its life, et cetera, et cetera. So really important to look at all those things when you're looking at
00:19:48
Speaker
pests and diseases. Usually when a plant is affected by pests and diseases, it's that it's not thriving for a reason. And often it has to do with soil health. We're watering. Yeah, we're watering. Before you were talking about counterintuitive planting times for cooler climates,
00:20:11
Speaker
Do you see that pests, obviously if you're going to put a cabbage in in the middle of summer, are you then attracting some pests to that plant that you probably wouldn't do if it was planted at the sort of more intuitive time if you were down in a warm climate?
00:20:29
Speaker
Okay, well that's an interesting point actually. When you know that certain pests are particularly active at certain times of the year, it means that you can plan better. So baby and your baby seedling, cabbage seedlings in your greenhouse are
00:20:49
Speaker
during the summer without putting them out and then putting them out in winter once things are really cooled down means that they won't get quite as thrashed by cabbage white butterfly for instance. So yes that is a really really good point. Another thing is that a lot of the time the insects that we see as pest insects often come in bouts
00:21:15
Speaker
When I'm saying this, I'm thinking of things like aphids, for instance. So I know just from doing this, for quite a few years now, that aphids come in bouts, sort of in the end of spring, there's a bout of aphids that come through.
00:21:33
Speaker
often you wait for about a week and looking at the bout of aphids and you see that the ladybirds have rocked up because there's been enough food for them and so they've made lots of babies and their ladybirds make short work of the aphids so really important to know when the bout is going to end and go okay yep I can see there's lots of aphids around I'll smoosh some of them with my hands
00:22:00
Speaker
But I know that this is going to end and it'll end well with some ladybirds. That's it. It's one of those things where I think people are almost too reactive to things. You've just sort of got to take a step back and, you know, as we've been talking about, let the natural systems occur. Absolutely. And the pests will take care of themselves. The beneficials will come in because the food's there for them and the equilibrium will kind of, you know, even out.
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah, I love when I first learnt, and I forget who told me this, but I think it was an elderly lady who lived a couple of doors down. She said, what's the first thing you need to attract aphid predators? And I was like, beneficial flowers, you know, blah, blah, blah. She's like, no, aphids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really important to have a few aphids there, otherwise the predators won't come.
00:22:51
Speaker
Well, that's right. Yeah. I mean, I think the term pest is, you know, kind of redundant these days anyway. Like, we're just trying to create that balance between it all. And if you don't have a balance, if you don't have any pests, you probably aren't really a part of an ecosystem.
00:23:09
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely and it's really important to do what you were saying is to zoom out and really look at the system as a whole and be patient because it is not
00:23:25
Speaker
We have evolved in a type of society that wants us to have the answers for everything at all times, but nature is not like that. It's not an exact science. There is no medicine that treats exactly that symptom. And a lot of the time, I have so many people coming up to me going,
00:23:49
Speaker
Oh my gosh, my tomatoes look terrible. And I just go, well, is it the end of the season? It is the end of the season. Your tomatoes are supposed to look like this. They're dying down. So it's the kicks of autumn. So it's really important to
00:24:07
Speaker
not get too much paralysis by analysis in that respect. That's a good one, paralysis by analysis.
Consistent Watering and Foliage Care
00:24:15
Speaker
You mentioned just before a little bit on watering, which I think often gets left out of the conversation here about veg growing, but I think one of the big important things is to have even and consistent watering.
00:24:29
Speaker
Absolutely. You know, I think when you give too much, your tomatoes will split, for example. You give too little and your plants will shrivel and die and obviously you're not supporting that microbial life within the soil also. But yeah, even consistent watering throughout the season is probably the key and probably at a ground level. A lot of our veg don't particularly like wet leaves. You know, some love a foliar fertilise.
00:24:57
Speaker
which is great, but they probably don't want constant wet leaves. So keep it a ground level and keep it a nice, even amount of water each day. Oh, Emmanuela, thank you so much for being on the show again today and giving us all those juicy little tips and tidbits for us to devour and implement in our own veggie gardens. I really do appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Engagement and Social Media Promotion
00:25:30
Speaker
That's it, team. Thank you so much for listening today. You can keep up with the adventures of Emanuela at Emanuela Periglione on Instagram. And make sure to check out episode four of the Growing Media Podcast to hear all about the running of the social enterprise Emanuela coordinates called Farm It Forward.
00:25:50
Speaker
You can also follow the pod on Instagram at Growing Media Oz. I have also just created a Facebook page for the show. It is a little lonely at the moment, so go and give that a follow if Facebook is your scene. You can also follow me on Instagram. I am at michaelhaw, m-y-k-a-l-h-o-a-r-e.
00:26:12
Speaker
Look, if you're enjoying the show, please, please give it a rating and a review. I would love to hear your feedback to be able to make it bigger and better for the future. Also share this very episode with two of your best buds. It will help get the word out about the show. Next episode is a Christmas special. It's all about growing your very own Christmas tree in a pot that you can keep year on year and bring it in and out of your house as you need.
00:26:41
Speaker
All right. Hooroo. See you in a fortnight. Today, I'm chatting with Emmanuela Pergione. At Emmanuela Pergione on Instagram.