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E091: Jessica Gutierrez
1.4k Plays4 years ago
Becky Gutierrez saw a man in a magic hat and beard take her little sister Jessie away in the night/early morning hours of June 6th, 1986. Now, 35 years later, we still don’t know what happened to four-year-old Jessica Gutierrez. But, if we press for answers, we can help find closure for this family so broken by their loss.
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Transcript
Starting a Podcast: Tips and Tools
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuthhounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own? Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are,
00:00:18
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends and from where our listeners hail.
00:00:46
Speaker
Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today. If you use our coffee and cases referral code.
00:01:04
Speaker
709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes. Not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now, it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Introducing Jessica Gutierrez's Case
00:01:32
Speaker
The picnic shelter and the riverbank at the local lake where I grew up. This is the place where my grandma pulled out the homemade milkshakes along with the old bamboo fishing rod. This is the place where I saw what love looked like. In the driveway of my home on a clear starlet night, this is the place where my husband first said all of the reasons why he loves me.
00:01:59
Speaker
This is a place where I heard what love sounds like. But just as we can recall in vivid detail the places where positive, life-changing moments happened, we can also recall in that same vivid recollection the places where our heart was broken the first time, the first time we felt betrayed, the first time we knew loss. The losses most of us have felt, though, cannot compare to the loss Deborah Gutierrez experienced
00:02:29
Speaker
on June 6th, 1986, when she discovered her daughter was taken from their home. Now, that is the place Deborah pictures when she thinks of both love and of pain. As Deborah said in an interview with Madeleine Stewart, when looking at the place where her daughter was abducted, quote, this is where I loved my children with my whole heart and soul. Home is where your heart is. And if you're not safe at home,
00:03:00
Speaker
Where are you going to be safe at?" This is the case of Jessica Gutierrez.
Purpose of the Podcast: Raising Awareness
00:03:44
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:03:53
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, and to follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok
00:04:17
Speaker
at Coffee and Case's podcast because as these families know, conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Emotional Impact of Child Loss
00:04:33
Speaker
Maggie, in thinking about our case this week, I don't know how it took me this long. I mean, we started this podcast December of 2019. Crazy. Yes, it's crazy that it's been that long, but it was this week that it really finally hit me
00:04:52
Speaker
the horror and the pain that are felt by parents in the cases that we cover because I almost began this episode by saying that our case this week is every parent's nightmare, the loss of a child. But then I realized that's what we talk about every week. Yeah, true. Everybody's child. Exactly. And it's just that it finally hit me
00:05:18
Speaker
that that's the feeling of loss in every single one of the cases we cover, whether that's the feeling of loss that's the result of a death or of a missing person's case. And I don't think that pain can compare with any physical pain. Agreed. Now, I could be wrong in this, Maggie, but I feel like when we think about someone taking our child,
00:05:46
Speaker
our fears are usually heightened when we're in an unsafe or a crowded space. Yeah. I'm definitely going to be that mom that has my kid on a backpack with a leash. That's going to be me as a mom. Yes. I'm not opposed to the backpack. No. I know that some people are, but it's a safety precaution. Safety first. That's right. I feel like that's when
00:06:11
Speaker
most of our fears are heightened. Like if there's a bunch of people around and when you return home, there's like this sense of relief. Like you can let go of that breath you've been holding. You're safe now. And I don't think you normally fear someone coming into your home and taking your child.
Child Abduction Statistics and Perceptions
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, you always think it's gonna be outside of the house because you're safe at home. Right, but statistically speaking,
00:06:41
Speaker
Your child is nearly just as likely to be abducted from your own home or the place where your child is staying the night. Those are 32% of the cases combined. Okay, so I'm getting ready to be like
00:06:55
Speaker
and Harry Potter got bars on the windows of my house. Yeah, you're sleeping with me, or right beside me, and you're never going anywhere. Exactly. 32%, or to be abducted from the perpetrators' home, 32%, that to be taken from a public place, the statistics were 36% of the cases in the study
Jessica Gutierrez's Abduction
00:07:20
Speaker
that I found. That's crazy to me. Yeah, me too.
00:07:23
Speaker
I would not have thought that at all. And Jessica Gutierrez, she was called Jessie by her family. So that's what I'm going to call her throughout the episode. She was born on December 3rd, 1981, which means... Oh, is she? Which is crazy because next week's episode, like the intros are almost super similar because I've already... Really? Yeah.
00:07:52
Speaker
And I talk about my brother in my intro for next week. She was born in 1981. And that means if you were doing the mental math and you caught the date that I mentioned in the introduction of when Jesse was discovered missing on June 6th, 1986, you would realize, yep, Jesse was only four years old when she was abducted.
00:08:18
Speaker
She hadn't yet turned five. I know. And Jessie was one of those like spirited, spunky little kids who are so fun to be around and you never know what's gonna come out of their mouths next. Yeah, I feel like, um...
00:08:33
Speaker
I, you know, the lady that works at your school named Samantha that I used to work with. That's who, like, that's how I would describe her oldest kid. That's who I thought of. She's awesome. Like, I love kids like that. Me too. Maggie and those kids, they say the craziest thing. So what's the craziest thing a kid has ever said to you?
00:08:57
Speaker
Well, this isn't like a little kid though, but I once had like a sort of little kid say, I think your mascara is running down your face. And then she said, no, you just have dark circles under your eyes.
00:09:10
Speaker
Oh, no, no. Mine made me feel, you know, about the same as that probably made you feel that mine was from my my slow sound, which makes it even more good. Your own kid, out of the mouths of babes. No, but do you know, you know how, like, whether you're a man or a woman, your face has like little hairs on it.
00:09:37
Speaker
And even though I have dark hair, the hair like on my face is light, but you know, I mean, plenty of women get like their eyebrows waxed. Yes. Right. Not because you have to, and it's super hairy, but just to get like the small little hairs away. So one time Rodney was talking to her and he would always joke with her and, you know, like to try to get her to like,
00:10:08
Speaker
eat food that maybe she wouldn't eat, like spicy food. He's always like, oh yeah, don't, you know, grow hair on your chest or whatever, like joking around about it. And he tried to get her to eat something spicy. And he was like, yeah, then you can grow hair on your face, like mine. And she said, I don't want a mustache like yours. I want a mustache like mom. I was like, great.
00:10:35
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for the confidence boost. I was like, oh no. I swear. So yeah, I mean, kids. Yeah, they never lie. You know the truth. Oh. And when I was thinking about and I was reading about Jesse, those were kind of the stories that came to my mind. Because in one of the articles by Brittany Breeding that was from June 7th of this year, Jesse's mom stated, quote,
00:11:03
Speaker
I remember her being so small, so outspoken, just a little spitfire," end quote. And in a separate interview with Debbie Gutierrez, which is Jesse's mom, for an article published by WIS-TV on May 19, 2005, she related to the reporter that Jesse was, quote, the youngest, but she was the biggest. All of my kids looked for her for all the answers, end quote. Aw. Yeah.
00:11:33
Speaker
And Maggie, Jesse Gutierrez, this little like three foot 32 pound four year old was a cutie patootie. So yes, I am going to show you a picture that we will post on social media for all of you also to see slow sounds.
00:11:58
Speaker
There's this little girl with the bangs and the red dress. Yes! Oh my god!
00:12:06
Speaker
I know. She's so freaking cute. Her little smile, their little nose. I know. Like this little button nose. She's got a little bow in her hair. I know. And like those big brown eyes and that wavy brown hair and she has like that little kid full-tooth smile. Yeah, it's adorable. I mean, she's precious.
00:12:32
Speaker
So that's the girl at the center of our case this week. And like, okay, this is going to sound completely crude. It doesn't matter to me what you look like. It's still a tragedy when someone goes missing, but it's, I don't know, when you just see a picture of a child and you just think about how innocent he or she is, it just, it's gut wrenching. There's so much life that wasn't lived.
00:13:01
Speaker
Mm hmm. Exactly.
The Gutierrez Family Background
00:13:04
Speaker
So the Gutierrez family resided in a small town called Red Bank. That's in Lexington County, South Carolina. Like I kept saying Lexington on everything and I was like, Oh, is this a Kentucky case? But no, Lexington County, South Carolina.
00:13:19
Speaker
And they lived in a mobile home near highway six. And that actually reminded me of my own childhood because after my parents divorced for several years of my life, I lived in a trailer with my mom in like this smaller suburb of a small town and it was just off the highway. So I'm like picturing myself in this situation.
00:13:46
Speaker
In the days leading up to Jesse's disappearance, Debbie had made some changes.
The Night Before the Abduction
00:13:52
Speaker
Changes that she thought were the best ones, not only for her family, but also for herself. So she broke up with her boyfriend and kicked him out of the house. And nearly every source that I found Maggie noted Debbie reporting that he had abused alcohol and that he was possessive. So she had had enough of that behavior.
00:14:15
Speaker
and ended the relationship. Well, you go Debbie. I'm here for you. Yes. Kick him to the curb. So while that change in dynamics in the home was probably likely felt by everybody, the last day that Jessie spent with her family before the abduction was pretty uneventful. So Debbie and her kids worked in their yard all day long before coming in to have bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwiches for dinner.
00:14:45
Speaker
So, um, that sounds delicious. And because, you know, it's schools getting ready to start back and we now have no lives to, you know, no spare moments. It's been two days in a row. I forgotten to take my allergy pills. And if you know me, you know, I take six allergy pills a day and I'm just really lucky. I'm not a giant walking allergic reaction right now. Side note about Maggie's life.
00:15:14
Speaker
side note about the drama of a school teacher. Yep. And we never have time for dinner. Nope. So there are times when bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwiches. It's what you're going to like it. That's right. And that sounds like my kind of sandwich minus the tomato. I'm out on that. You're just going to eat bacon and lettuce. Yeah. Always bacon. But yeah, no tomato.
00:15:44
Speaker
Uh-uh. Fried bologna. That's a good meal, too. So that's what they had for dinner. And then Jesse's mom had actually painted Jesse's nails. And after she did, Jesse asked if she could sleep in bed with her mom. And I'm sure that her mom's answer of no that she gave
00:16:09
Speaker
is the one response that haunts Debbie to this day, since that would mean that Jesse wouldn't have been in the bedroom. Well, I know that it's super easy to question the like, you know, what ifs in situations like this. But like, you just, I don't know, it's hard, but like, you have to think about in that moment, that was what was best.
00:16:34
Speaker
And like, you know what I mean? And like, she's four. So you're trying to create habits of, you know, you're sleeping in your own room. You don't sleep with mommy. Like, you know, so she was doing what was best at that time. Cause she didn't want to know. Yeah. Yeah. You couldn't have known what would happen. And we always say that about the friends in the family.
00:16:57
Speaker
that are left behind. Many are going to second-guess decisions, but they could not have known. And the reason that Debbie had said no was kind of, from my impression, what you just said about habits forming because Jesse had just slept with her the night before.
00:17:14
Speaker
And Jesse's older brother was in pain because he had an ear infection. So Debbie had actually already told him that he could sleep in bed with her that night because he was sick. And you know, when you're sick, you just want mom, right? So because her brother was going to be sleeping with Debbie, she told Jesse no.
Discovery of Jessica's Disappearance
00:17:35
Speaker
Sometime between 11 30 pm and midnight, Jessie climbed into the double bed dressed in a pink and white t-shirt and underwear alongside her six-year-old sister Becky and they drifted off to sleep. And according to the Charlie Project, another sister shared that bedroom as well but I didn't see her name anywhere. So there's four of them total, three sisters and brothers? From what I could gather, yes. Most of the articles didn't mention
00:18:05
Speaker
any of the children's names, the only two that were mentioned were Jesse, who was abducted, right? We know that from what I've already told you, and her sister Becky, because Becky's role will be important here in just a second. Okay. So around 9am the next morning, so remember, they go to bed between like
00:18:27
Speaker
you know, 1130 and midnight. Around 9am the next morning, Debbie woke to her daughter Becky calling across the mobile home asking if they could all have cereal for breakfast. So again, nothing out of the ordinary until Debbie walked into the living room. The front door was wide open and the family's dog, which normally stayed outside, was running around in the house.
00:18:56
Speaker
And then she saw the living room window. The screen had been removed and the curtains had been ripped down. So she's like, what is going on, right?
00:19:11
Speaker
What could have caused all of this? So she proceeded to go into the girl's bedroom, where she saw what looked like school papers littering the bedroom floor, like papers everywhere. So she starts looking frantically around, and Debbie saw two of her daughters, but not four-year-old Jesse. Remember, Jesse slept in bed with six-year-old Becky. So Debbie demanded of Becky, where's your sister?
00:19:41
Speaker
to which Becky replied, and I quote, she's gone. The man with the magic hat and the beard took her last night, end quote. Okay. So at first I was like, did she just wander out the open door? You know? Yeah. But till you get the magic hat man. Yeah. And like, did she dream that? Well, and I'm wondering,
00:20:10
Speaker
I think that that would probably be the logical reaction.
00:20:16
Speaker
The mom, Debbie, when she walks into this, probably didn't want to believe what was in front of her eyes. Or maybe thinking like, yeah, did she dream this? Is this some childish game? So Debbie starts pulling covers off the bed, crouching on the floor to peer under the bed, running around outside of the property, calling for Jesse, then screaming for Jesse in desperation. But no response came.
00:20:44
Speaker
And debbie admitted in an article by teddy colmala that she then ran back inside and began shaking Becky screaming at her to admit where Jesse was right thinking like. Oh they're playing or playing you know or whatever yeah but all Becky kept repeating was the detail.
00:21:05
Speaker
that the quote, man in the magic hat with the beard, end quote, took Jessie during the night. So I wonder if they've ever like put, cause I know we've talked about this in another case, but I wonder if they've ever like put her under hypnosis to see if that's like what she actually saw. I think that would be interesting if they did because I mean, we saw with the KK's corner case, you know, she was,
00:21:34
Speaker
Ms. Johnson was put under hypnosis and she was able to help create a sketch of what the perpetrator looked like. But I didn't read that they've ever tried that. But police now believe that the abductor entered through the living room window, because remember, screens gone, curtains torn down.
00:21:54
Speaker
And we know from Becky's later recollection that the man leaned over and picked up Jesse so as not to wake her up, put Jesse over his shoulder. And then we assume because the front door is wide open that he exited through the front door. So like, did he lean over Becky to pick Jesse up? Like he deliberately passed up one child to get another one? Cause I feel like that takes some planning.
00:22:24
Speaker
Like, you know, you have a target. Right. And I don't know, but I mean, obviously, in that same bedroom, there are three children. And he picked up one, which to me is targeted. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, he didn't come back for the other ones.
00:22:47
Speaker
And obviously, six-year-old Becky, six is young, right? She could not have stopped a grown man from abducting her sister. Yeah. But in the moment, Debbie was so upset, you know, and I think out of fear,
00:23:05
Speaker
you know, about where Jesse is, that she yelled at Becky and this, according to that Teddy Colmala article, is what she said.
Family Emotional Struggles
00:23:16
Speaker
Quote, do you realize how crazy that is? You're telling me some man picked her up and took her away and you did what? Why didn't you call for me? Why didn't you scream? End quote. And Maggie, I honestly don't know how to react to that comment.
00:23:33
Speaker
I agree with you because on one hand you know like I get that the mom is scared right and but also the mom is a mom and the kid is how old did you say she was six six yeah she probably just didn't understand that that was scared that she should be scared well I definitely agree with the part like
00:24:02
Speaker
with the mom, I get that perspective because I think you're right. I think she was speaking out of fear. And I feel like when you're afraid, then you say things that can hurt other people.
00:24:16
Speaker
And I also get her wishing that she would have known like exactly when it happened, because even though Becky couldn't have prevented it, maybe she could have. And this part saddens me a bit as much as it's real and raw. And I applaud her for being honest, but Debbie told that reporter Teddy Colmala that it actually took her about a year and a half to forgive Becky for not yelling.
00:24:44
Speaker
Oh, that's sad. I know. She was a baby too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she was only six and that's why I find that comment so hard to react to because again, I get Debbie's perspective. Yeah. And we don't know what emotions she had and I hope we never know that. Yes. And again, I think that her admitting that that's how she felt
00:25:09
Speaker
is probably something that she has now been able to recognize. And I'm kind of proud of her for being honest about it. But obviously, I can see it from Becky's perspective. And I also don't think that she should feel any guilt. And I don't think that Debbie wants her to feel guilty.
00:25:33
Speaker
you know, because like we said, she was only six at the time. And she actually told her mom later that she was too afraid to make a noise. Okay, perfectly understandable. Yes, like, you know, because you're thinking, oh my gosh, this person's going to come back, you know, and what are they going to do this? First of all, like once this guy walks out of the room, she doesn't know where he is.
00:26:00
Speaker
where he's taken her sister, right? Like she doesn't know anything. He could still be in the next room, right? And so she told her mom that she was too afraid to make a noise. And so she's like trying to lie there motionless and that she doesn't recall when she fell back asleep. I know. So I'm sure like she was trying to be quiet, not move. So she wasn't hurt.
00:26:25
Speaker
and then like innocently had fallen back asleep without meaning to. And then I'm sure the next morning when she woke up, you know, cause again, she's young, she's a baby still. She might've even thought, oh, that was just a bad dream. Yeah, or I'm wondering, and you might talk about this, like have they thought about maybe Becky knew who took Jessie and that's why she didn't say anything? Cause she thought it was someone she could trust.
00:26:54
Speaker
I have not seen anything that said that, but I think that's an interesting idea. And so like once Debbie realizes what happened, she immediately contacts law enforcement to report Jesse missing. They grilled her with questions and they actually even tapped her phone just in case somebody tried to call with information or to ask for ransom for Jesse's return.
00:27:22
Speaker
But no call came in. After searching the home and talking to the family, they actually Maggie had two pieces of information to go on. They had Becky's description of the quote, magic hat, whatever that is, and beard, right? And they had a single fingerprint
00:27:44
Speaker
lifted from the living room window. Oh, that's good. Yes. Yes. It was taken from the outside of the window, which is where the abductor would have had to like grab the window to get it open, which is why we assume that window was his point of entry. And the print was described in several sources as quote, fresh and not weathered, end quote. So we know this is recent, this fingerprint.
00:28:14
Speaker
And according to the missing persons of America page on Jesse's case, Debbie cleaned the mobile homes windows religiously. And that would explain why they were able to get a fresh print. So like my windows at my house. Yeah. Not so much. Not cleaned them since we moved into our house like over a year ago. Yeah, I haven't either. But luckily Debbie did. I talk about this a lot. I feel like there are so many clues that people have because they clean a lot. So maybe I should clean more.
00:28:44
Speaker
You don't have Tom. This is true. We're eating fried bologna sandwiches and bacon and lettuce sandwiches for dinner already. Yeah, it's like almost to the point I'm going to start brushing my teeth while in the shower just to save Tom. Right, just to save time. So they were able to find this fingerprint, but unfortunately that fingerprint was sent to the FBI and no matches were made with anyone on file.
Suspect Identification
00:29:08
Speaker
At least we have a print, right? We don't know whose it is yet, but we have a print. But maybe we will figure it out.
00:29:14
Speaker
Well, and Debbie did have her own suspicions. Oh, I'm sure she was definitely like it was my ex-boyfriend. Yes, that was her first inclination because she had just kicked her ex-boyfriend out literally like the days leading up to Jesse's abduction.
00:29:34
Speaker
So Debbie not only told law enforcement about her ex-boyfriend but she actually called him herself to confront him. Yes. I know because she's like not letting this go. So on the phone she immediately accused him of taking Jesse and demanded to know where she was and what he had done with her. Well because she could still be if he did take her I'm sure she's thinking like he abducted her just to get back at me and she's probably fine and he's just being like
00:30:03
Speaker
a grade A butthole. Right. Yeah, because there's at least some hope in this accusation. Right. And I think you're right. Just what you said, like, if it's him, then Jesse should be safe. This was just, yeah, a move to make me
00:30:24
Speaker
feel scared or whatever. However, he said he had no idea where Jesse was or what Debbie was even talking about. And police also questioned him several times about the abduction, but he was never charged with the crime nor even named a suspect. And the fingerprints didn't match. Plus,
00:30:48
Speaker
Becky would have recognized him, right? So this would have at least been somebody where eventually, because we're still talking about this case and it happened in 1986, right? Eventually, even if she was scared at the time, Becky would have been like, oh, it was, you know, so-and-so, because she knew him. Yeah, like, or that morning, she would have been like, well, I didn't say anything because it was blah, blah, blah that took her. Right, right. And not just the man in the magic hat.
00:31:19
Speaker
Despite no proof, Debbie has always felt that tickling sensation of doubt always on the recesses when thinking about Jesse's abduction. In fact, she stated in an interview with Teddy Colmollin in 2017, quote, to this day, in my gut of guts and in my heart of hearts, I know he's involved. I just cannot prove it, end quote.
00:31:50
Speaker
So she's feeling he may not be like directly the person who did it but involved in some way. Yes. Yes. That is her gut feeling. A second person initially looked at was Jesse's father and Debbie's ex-husband David Romero Gutierrez Ruiz.
00:32:13
Speaker
According to the Resource Center for Cold Case Missing Children's Cases, Debbie had reported that he previously made comments that he would, quote, get the children, end quote, and that even though there had been reports that he was living in Mexico City, Mexico at the time, he was found living in California. But why did he only take one kid? Yeah, that doesn't you're right. That doesn't make any sense.
00:32:42
Speaker
Right. If he said, I'm going to get the children. Yeah. And if they're, it's their dad, like I don't feel like you would need to be super secretive. I mean, like, obviously you don't want them to make a lot of noise, but I feel like you could wake them up and be like, we're playing a game. Be quiet. Come with daddy. Right. Right. And again, the fingerprints didn't match.
00:33:03
Speaker
Plus, Maggie, authorities were able to prove that he was on the West Coast, because he's living in California now, at the time of Jesse's disappearance in South Carolina. So he was ruled out as a potential suspect. About 10 weeks after Jesse's abduction, there was a break in the case. There was finally a match
00:33:28
Speaker
to the fingerprint lifted from the living room window. Oh, yay. Yes. It was a 27-year-old man from West Columbia, South Carolina, who had stolen a van in Lexington County. And remember, that's where the Gutierrez family lives. He had stolen a van from there, had driven it to North Carolina, had broken into a home to find a sleeping woman
00:33:55
Speaker
whom he raped. Which turns my stomach because if he was involved with Jesse, I don't want to think about what else could have happened. Right. But he was charged with that crime in North Carolina, convicted and sent to prison. And that's how he got his fingerprints. Exactly. And so that's how we get his fingerprints. And this man,
00:34:23
Speaker
also just happened to be a friend of the family. Someone that Debbie claimed her ex-boyfriend had been acquainted with. So then perhaps the ex-boyfriend could have been involved if he kind of persuaded this man to kidnap Jesse. That's the very reason that I think Debbie says she has a gut feeling like she believes there was more than one person involved. But
00:34:52
Speaker
this man who...
00:34:57
Speaker
was convicted and charged with a crime in North Carolina, denied knowing Debbie's ex-boyfriend and Debbie's ex-boyfriend denied knowing the convicted man. But the Charlie Project notes that Debbie recalled them meeting each other at a gathering at Waffle House a few months before Jesse's abduction. So in her head, she's thinking, yes, you do know each other because I was at the Waffle House too.
00:35:26
Speaker
And I know that you talk to each other, right? And now they're denying that they know each other. That's crazy. So I think river in Egypt or whatever that saying is. Yeah. Denial, denial. So in 1987, the man with the matching fingerprint, right? Who has never been publicly named. So like, I don't even know his name to tell you.
00:35:55
Speaker
When he was serving time in a North Carolina prison for that rape, are you ready for this Maggie? Probably not. Probably not. I ask you this all the time and the answer is always the same. This man told his cellmate
00:36:11
Speaker
that he had also kidnapped a girl in Lexington County.
Confession and Legal Challenges
00:36:16
Speaker
Well, that's where Jesse lives, and she's been kidnapped. Yep. And he said he was wearing a tall cowboy hat at the time of the abduction. OK, so he had a magic hat on. Yep. And he told his cellmate that he had buried the little girl's body in a landfill. Oh, my god. So he confesses to all of this stuff. Did he have a beard?
00:36:42
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I didn't read it. Yeah. Luckily that cellmate who he confessed to told authorities what the cowboy hat man, cause that's what I'm going to call him had said, and when law enforcement confronted cowboy hat man about his statements, he said that he would confess and give all of the details if they would grant him immunity for the crime.
00:37:09
Speaker
And when police told him like, no deal, we're not going to grant you immunity, he refused to say anything else. So I'm wondering, I wonder what his sentence was for rape. Like was it like life in jail, life in prison? No possibility? No, because he is now out. Yeah. I was going to say, if he was already in for life, I'd be like, sure. Yeah, but he's not. Can police not agree to that kind of stuff with like a finger crossed?
00:37:39
Speaker
See, I don't know what goes into that decision because part of me, I feel like as a parent, if my child were missing and somebody made that comment, I think I would rather know where my child is and be able to have that closure. That would be the closure that I needed probably even more than
00:38:09
Speaker
Well, you're going to know who did it. But see, yeah, you're right. And that's hard because if he's only serving a sentence and it's going to be out, you know, in a couple of years and you're granting him immunity, then yeah, he's walking around and you could see him every day so that I don't, I don't know. He's free regardless now.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yes, he is. And cowboy hat man is considered a person of interest in Jesse's abduction, but he's never been charged. And despite all of the connections that I mentioned to you, and that fact that there are all of those connections has been a huge point of contention between Debbie Gutierrez and law enforcement. Well, that and a few other conflicts, but let me explain this contention first.
Investigation Problems
00:38:59
Speaker
But here are the problems with the quote unquote evidence. Okay. Number one, the fingerprint was found on the outside of the window. So for Debbie that makes sense because the crank that you would use to open the window was broken.
00:39:18
Speaker
And so the window would have had to have been lifted up from the outside to enter the home. So it makes sense that the fingerprint is on the outside. But Debbie said, as reported on the missing persons of America page, that a representative from the Attorney General's office has said that the fingerprint being on the outside was part of the problem since it wasn't on the inside
00:39:44
Speaker
They couldn't prove that he had actually entered the home. Okay, but that's like just a big giant piece of red tape, a big giant piece of dog duty you have to step over. You know if that fingerprint's on the outside of the window that they came in. Yeah. That's an annoying legality. The window was left open and the screen is taken out of that same window and the curtains are torn down. Yeah, I'm sure Debbie didn't do that before she went to bed. Right. But that's what they said.
00:40:13
Speaker
The second problem is that cowboy hat man had relayed that he had put the body in a landfill and landfills near the Gutierrez home were searched, but nobody was found. And obviously that's something that would have proven his story true and not a false confession. Yeah. But he also, how far did he drive to rape the woman that he was put in prison for?
00:40:39
Speaker
I mean, he drove from South Carolina to North Carolina. Yeah. So who says he put her in a neighboring landfill? Right. I mean, that's true. There could be one in North Carolina, you know, since that happened a few weeks later. So number three problem.
00:40:58
Speaker
Some of the searches in the area were also conducted in like this wooded area, this wooded space that was known to be frequented often by cowboy hat man. And these searches there were to like look for clues, but no further clues were found there either.
00:41:17
Speaker
Problem number four, Deborah was, according to several sources, and I didn't read how, but that she was able to locate an abandoned vehicle that she said belonged to Cowboy Hat Man. She needs a job for the FBI. I agree. Well, I mean, listen, don't put it past a mall if you want to. Exactly.
00:41:43
Speaker
And she said that she had located fibers in that vehicle that she says are linked to her Jessie, but I didn't read an official report of whether those fibers were like tested, the way like a court would want them tested and proven to be linked. Problem number five, even though cowboy hat man had told a cellmate of the kidnapping of a young girl,
00:42:09
Speaker
Since he refused to speak after being denied immunity, there's no confession on record. More red tape. So as a result, yep, prosecutors said there wasn't enough evidence to file charges. They're like, we're not likely to get a conviction, so we're not going to file charges. Well, I guess because
00:42:32
Speaker
It could be, I mean, a lot of it, I don't know if it's really hearsay is the correct word, but like we don't really have, besides the fingerprints, super tangible evidence. Right. Unless there were fibers in his car. Right, but I feel like you would read that in like several places if that had been through. I mean, I'm not saying it isn't, I just feel like you would read about it more. Well, part of the problem is
00:43:01
Speaker
another issue with the evidence that I'll get to in just a minute. Perfect. As to maybe why we can't prove or disprove.
00:43:11
Speaker
So before I get to that, another point of contention happened at the time of Jesse's disappearance, but it wasn't revealed to the public until years later.
Tensions with Law Enforcement
00:43:22
Speaker
So for reasons that I couldn't find. For reasons unknown. That's right. For reasons unknown, Debbie Gutierrez had believed at the time that investigators were getting pulled off of Jesse's case for the day. Right. And she's like, I don't know why she thought that they were, but she thought that they were.
00:43:41
Speaker
So she called up Sheriff James Metz to talk to him about it. Again, don't put anything past mama bear Debbie, right? Like she's going to find answers about what's happening in her daughter's case. And again, I applaud her for that. The transcript of that conversation and a recording of it were released in 2007.
00:44:06
Speaker
And while Metz, when this recording was released of this call and he was asked about it, he was like, well, I don't know why Debbie would have recorded the call. He apparently forgot that the call was recorded because law enforcement had tapped her phone line in case the abductor tried to make contact. So that's why we have the recording of this call because her phone had been tapped.
00:44:35
Speaker
And she said that she hadn't released the recording before because she was afraid that if she did, investigators would stop searching for Jesse and that fear alone was big enough to keep this quiet. So once it was released though, Maggie, I think it's shocking. And again, I think, I mentioned earlier when people's feelings are hurt,
00:45:02
Speaker
I think they say things that they don't necessarily mean in the moment. That's like when you're hangry. Yeah, but it's hard to then justify why those things are said.
00:45:16
Speaker
So here's a short transcript of the conversation. I'm kind of nervous about it. I'm not going to lie. Oh, yeah. And this is as it was reported in the article, Missing Girls Mother Questions Conversation with Sheriff Metz that was published by WIS TV on November 24th, 2007. OK. By God, that's my young and I want her brought back home, Debbie said. Sheriff Metz, what do you want me to do? Someone's got to hold your hand.
00:45:45
Speaker
or out working. Debbie, listen here, I don't need you to hold my hand, and I don't need you to get smart with me either. Sheriff Metz, I'm not going to get smart with you, but you're not going to get smart with me either, lady. I've been up all night long working on your case, and I don't need your smart mouth. Debbie, oh really? Sheriff Metz, no.
00:46:13
Speaker
Debbie, when I ask you questions, I need answers. Sheriff Metz, we'll give you answers when we got answers to give. Now you mess with me, I'll pull all my people off and we'll go home and go to bed and forget about your case. Debbie, you mean to tell me that if I mess with you, you would pull all your people off this case and go home and forget about my child? Sheriff Metz, that's right. Yeah.
00:46:42
Speaker
Okay, so I can see why she didn't say anything about it. Yeah, because she's like, they're gonna pull everybody off of it. Yeah. And from his perspective in the comments that he has made, and he hasn't said a whole lot when asked about the content of the conversation. But he, he actually said like, in that moment, he was tired and
00:47:10
Speaker
And he did say that, on the contrary, he didn't...
00:47:14
Speaker
you know, take away investigators that he actually added more investigators to the case. But like I get Debbie, you know, being like, Oh my gosh, like, why would he speak to me that why would you make a threat like that? Well, I can think about like, obviously not anything close to this. Like, just think about like, if you we go into work, tired, you know, it's so easy to snap at people or
00:47:40
Speaker
You know, that one kid that annoys you every single day and you put a smile on your face and pretend like they're God's angel on earth. And then that day you're lacking sleep, they say something and you just kind of snap. I mean, it happens. People, we're all human. The big thing is you got to apologize. I know. And I haven't seen an apology.
00:48:04
Speaker
but they did continue working on the case. And they actually did locate a girl living in Kansas. And this was in 1987 that police initially believed to be Jessica Gutierrez. They said that she had scars that matched Jessie. So a small scar on her upper forehead and like scars on her ear lobes from having her ears pierced.
00:48:32
Speaker
And I didn't read whether this girl in Kansas also had the small brown birthmark on her right butt cheek that Jesse had. But according to that Teddy Colmala article, and this is the part where I'm like, I don't know if this was a typo.
00:48:52
Speaker
or what, but it said that this girl in Kansas even had matching dental records. But how could that be possible? That's why I think it was a typo. She would have had her baby teeth. Yes. Law enforcement actually flew Debbie to Kansas to identify her. Like that's how sure they were. Like this is Jesse. But Debbie said that as soon as she heard the little girl's voice before she even saw her face, she knew it wasn't her daughter. Did they do DNA just to be sure?
00:49:22
Speaker
Not that I've seen. And that's why I was saying like, I'm not so sure that all of that is true because, especially about the dental records, because I was like, can people have like matching dental records? You know, especially when you're a kid, you know, before you have like your adult teeth. I mean, I don't know how that works. I don't either. How old in 1987? Five. So it's just the very next year.
00:49:52
Speaker
Oh, so she probably still hadn't really lost any teeth. Maybe she did. But then I was like, you know, forensically, I feel like you would know. So I was like, I googled it and I was like, can people have matching dental records? But even identical, identical twins don't share the same dental records. Like their teeth and their patterns are as unique as fingerprints. Who can I say they're like fingerprints?
00:50:21
Speaker
Yeah. So, and because I didn't see anything, you would think that if this were her, they were that sure that they would have done a DNA test and I didn't read anything about it. I feel like I would do that just to be sure. Honestly. Yeah. But I mean, it was so close to the abduction date that, you know, Debbie should be able, I get like, if you wouldn't recognize your kid, if they went missing, you know, at age six months and then they're 30.
00:50:48
Speaker
you know, standing in front of you, but if they, right. And Debbie actually said in a May 19th, 2005 article with WIS TV that in her words, quote, I do believe that if I see her, I'll know her. Like, and she's saying this now, you know, years after the abduction. And she said, and that may not make sense to some people, but to me, I will know her. I will know her.
00:51:18
Speaker
end quote. I feel like most mamas would feel that way. Mm hmm. I think so.
00:51:24
Speaker
Another point of contention, and this is what I was mentioning earlier with the evidence, is that Debbie has also stated that law enforcement mishandled other evidence that was taken from the scene, like they failed to follow chain of command to protect the evidence, which could have happened with the fibers. I don't know if that's why, you know, because like every piece of evidence, you have to know exactly whose possession it was in. Right. So it wasn't tampered with.
00:51:54
Speaker
And the evidence was not, according to Debbie, stored in an environmentally controlled area. So she actually accused the Sheriff Metz and the solicitor in charge of Jesse's case of corruption. Metz, the sheriff, the one whose conversation I read to you and all of that, he was arrested in 2014 on charges of bribery, conspiracy, and wire fraud. And the solicitor,
00:52:24
Speaker
that Debbie accused of corruption has been arrested for multiple DUIs in the past. But Debbie's biggest issue with them is what she feels was an unwillingness to press charges against that cowboy hat man, especially since, according to the Resource Center for Cold Case Missing Children's Cases website,
00:52:48
Speaker
That solicitor, the one who's like, we don't have enough evidence for a conviction, had previously tried two murder cases without a body, but he wasn't willing to press charges in Jesse's case. That's crazy. We had the matching fingerprint. Yeah. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why Debbie is so upset and I get it.
00:53:12
Speaker
But now, years later, the potential for a trial is even worse. Because there wasn't a trial at the time, now, and we talk about this all the time, Maggie, now witnesses' memories have faded even more. And in some cases, witnesses have passed away. And Debbie said that the sheriff Metz had actually told her years after the abduction that they, quote, had a stronger case in 1986. What does that mean?
00:53:41
Speaker
I guess like now, you know, with less evidence because it's been, you know, not handled properly and there aren't as many people who recall things. We were more likely to take it to trial in 1986 than we are now. Yep. So you asked about this earlier, cowboy hat man, while a convicted sex offender
00:54:06
Speaker
was released from prison in 1997 and has been free since then. And for Debbie, that's a detail that's hard for her to rectify in her mind. So she told reporter Teddy Colmala of the investigation, quote, the ball was dropped. I've seen cases tried on less evidence than what they have with my daughter, end quote. So what are your thoughts, Maggie?
00:54:34
Speaker
I don't know. Like I really wish that, I know it's not like super reliable or whatever, but I really wish they would have hypnotized Becky and seen if she could like help them put together a sketch. That's my big wish for this case. Well, besides the fact that, you know, Jessica's found. Right. Do you,
00:54:58
Speaker
feel like in your heart of hearts, like Debbie does, that cowboy hat man and the ex-boyfriend could both be part of it? I don't know if I would go so far to say that they both could be part of it, but the cowboy hat and the magic hat thing, it just kind of stick with you, you know? Yeah, I agree.
00:55:30
Speaker
But the pain has been something that Debbie and her children have dealt with daily.
Struggling with Celebrations
00:55:36
Speaker
And the aftermath was hard. For years, the family didn't celebrate Christmas. It was too hard with Jesse's birthday so close to the holiday and to not have her there. Even though Debbie moved out of that mobile home and moved away from Lexington County, it was short lived. Just a few months later, she returned.
00:55:58
Speaker
just in case Jesse ever came back home and she doesn't want to be too far away.
00:56:04
Speaker
Debbie even went so far to say in an article with Brittany Breeding for WACH, quote, I wish he had murdered me that night. And my kids had to grow up without me as opposed to losing my daughter. You don't know how many times I've wished that. It's hard to go on without her. I cannot go and die without knowing where my daughter is and have her in a proper place, end quote. She even tried to take her life on multiple occasions because of the pain.
00:56:34
Speaker
Luckily, Debbie has a detective on the case who has not given up hope of closure.
Ongoing Commitment to the Case
00:56:40
Speaker
Sergeant David Pritchard of the Lexington County Sheriff's Department. Even when Pritchard transferred to a training department, he pleaded to continue to work on Jesse's case. He felt that he had already invested so much time into it and already had a grasp on the work that had already been put into the search, that it was more beneficial for him to stay on the case.
00:56:59
Speaker
and for someone new to have to acquaint themselves with the work that had already been done to get up to speed. Sergeant Pritchard told Madeline Stewart of WIS-TV just a few weeks ago in a story published on July 7th, 2021, that even after 35 years, Jessica Gutierrez's case is not a cold one, and that he has been and will continue to fully investigate every clue that comes in.
00:57:26
Speaker
Debbie also has the aid of the accomplished gentleman of the unfinished files, both criminal investigators who have continued to work closely with her on search efforts. They were involved in the search of a possible dump site and turned their findings over to authorities. Please like and follow their Facebook page, The Unfinished Files, to continue to receive information about this case and others. Thankfully, Debbie has people in her world to focus on hope
00:57:57
Speaker
and on the future because Debbie herself instead also sometimes focuses on what she might have done differently back in 1986 if given the chance to relive it. She had told Dara Khalid of WACH
00:58:14
Speaker
She would, quote, squeeze her and squeeze her and I'm not sure if I'd let her go. And I certainly would get that bicycle that she wanted so bad. That little bicycle has really been hard for me all these years because she had a birthday coming up in December and that's what she wanted. Her very own bicycle, end quote. In other words, it sounds to me like she wishes she could reclaim that place of her home as one not associated with both joy and pain.
00:58:43
Speaker
but just as a place of love. That is the place she longs to stay. And now is the place where you come in, Sleuthhounds, to change the trajectory of this case to probe and to question. Pictures of Jesse both as a child and an age progression photo will be posted on our Coffee and Cases Facebook page.
00:59:09
Speaker
Please, if you are from North or South Carolina especially, but honestly, if you are from anywhere, share the post, share her story, and share the hope for closure in this case. Anyone with information is asked to call the South Carolina Crime Stoppers at 888-CRIME-SC or 888-274-6372.
00:59:39
Speaker
Again, please like and join us on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and to see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to Coffee and Cases podcast at gmail.com.
01:00:00
Speaker
Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.