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With Derek McIntyre
87 Plays3 years ago
With all the topics, arguments and questions one could address in speaking about the gospel, sometimes it's hard to know where to start. Today we hear from someone who decided to investigate the simple question "Was Jesus the Son of God?" and was surprised at the overwhelming amount of convincing evidence he found.
Derek McIntyre comes from a science background and came to Christianity in middle-age when he discovered the wealth of compelling evidence pointing to Jesus being the Son of God. When he became a Christian, he was compelled to share this evidence with others and so developed the "Jesus: The Evidence" website, presentation and booklet to allow him to do this. Read his testimony on the Solas website here.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Kristy and I'm joined by Andy Bannister. Andy, hello, greetings to you on this fine day. How's it going? It is fine day. I am here in Dundee and the sun is actually shining today. So what is not to like? Oh, lovely. And we're joined by the wonderful Derek McIntyre. Derek, hello, welcome to Pep Talk. Hello, how are you doing? Doing well, thank you. It's great to have you here. Derek, you are?
00:00:37
Speaker
Again, let me just make sure I've got this right. You're a street pastor in Glasgow. You volunteer at the Glasgow City Mission. You wear many hats. And you also come from a science kind of background. You're an engineer by trade, aren't you? And by education. So I'd love to hear how did you actually, how did you get here? Because you have quite the backstory, which I imagine that coming from an agnostic background to now professing kind of faith in Christ as a scientist,
00:01:06
Speaker
What did that look like for you? Could you share a little bit about your journey
Derek's Journey to Faith
00:01:11
Speaker
with us? Yes, sure, no problem. My family have no Christian links at all. I guess when I was in my 20s I had these conversations, you're having your 20s and your teens, you know, why are we all here?
00:01:28
Speaker
religious questions in my teens and I never really came to any clear conclusions on them. I guess I can apart them and I file at the back of my head thinking I'd come back to them later but really never did. However, in my late 30s I thought it would be worthwhile having another look at this and the whole question of these kind of matters and I started digging into it and
00:01:53
Speaker
I had a great conversation with a colleague when I was over in America. It was a training trip to America. I was sitting in the back of a car with this guy. He was from California and I was talking away to him and just introducing myself and getting to know him and asked him where he'd been in holiday that year. And he told me he'd been in holiday to opt for the missionary work.
00:02:20
Speaker
I didn't know you sent people to mission these to Oxford. Anyway, so they kind of piqued my curiosity, which of course it was meant to. I asked them some of the questions I had going round in my head at that time, and he said he would help me. He tried his best to answer the questions.
00:02:40
Speaker
He said at the end of the conversation, he'd send me a couple of books and I might find it of interest and it might help me with my questions. So sure enough, two weeks later, a copy of a Bible and a copy of The Case for Christ for Lee's Trouble appeared at my front door and I read The Case for Christ. I guess where I came to, it certainly didn't turn me into Christian, but it
Impressed by Historical Evidence
00:03:06
Speaker
it certainly I read it and I thought here there's maybe enough here to dig in to this in a bit more detail to try and find out you know is there something in this and so I spent well I guess four or five years reading up on the evidence for Jesus and I guess I was amazed at what I found that I was amazed at the amount of the evidence for Jesus it was incredible really I thought I
00:03:33
Speaker
you know, I was kind of interested in history and so on. And I didn't know any of this at all. And it was very, very convincing. And so I guess I kind of moved, I guess that kind of broke the ice for me in that I guess I was more open to the concept of possibly having a relationship with Jesus. And so that's how it happened really. The evidence for Jesus
00:04:04
Speaker
got me a certain position. I wouldn't have got that position, I don't think, for the kind of person I am. I needed evidence. I needed something to get my fist round, if you like, and something tangible. And that's what I found there was tremendous amount of convincing evidence for Jesus being the Son of God.
00:04:29
Speaker
So that really helped me move towards a position of faith. Well, I find fascinating in that story, Derek, given that kind of engineering background, I've got many friends who come from that kind of background. And I think engineers and scientists are kind of wired to think, aren't we, in terms of, you know, give me the evidence, where are the facts? Yes.
00:04:50
Speaker
And of course, what I find so fascinating about your story is because that was how you came to faith. And now, I suppose the reason we invited you to be on pep
Creating 'Jesus the Evidence' Presentation
00:04:59
Speaker
talk. And by the way, if people want more of Derek's story, we'll put a link in the show notes. We've got your testimony up on the Solas website, and it's a great read. But of course, now you've got this resource, this presentation you do called Jesus the Evidence. Now you're an evangelist and you're out there helping people
00:05:14
Speaker
sort of, you know, discover the same evidence that you did. So how do you find that goes down when you get out there on the road and the streets? I guess, I mean, the reason I do it was I became a Christian and I thought there must be something like this, you know, to concisely present the evidence for Jesus. I thought I must try and get involved with them and support them and so on. So I couldn't find anything.
00:05:43
Speaker
I don't think solace existed at that time. So I couldn't find anything. So that's why I did it myself, because I thought, well, look, is it clearly important if this is, if Jesus is the Son of God, I mean, it's really important that you do something about it. So I felt it was important to, I mean, I'd done all this digging for information, various books and various things I'd listened to and so on and so forth.
00:06:12
Speaker
And I thought, you know, there's plenty of people like me just wandering around, not engaging with this information at all. So I thought it would be good to condense all the information I've found in a concise one evening presentation and a small booklet, which we give out at the presentations. So it's easy to digest and written in a style or presented in a style that would
00:06:41
Speaker
engage with non-Christians because I think I guess that was the thing I found kind of difficult when I was a non-Christian myself. Many things I heard were written in that kind of Christianese language and it's perhaps harder to engage with for somebody that's not from that background, if you like. So I've tried to present the information in language that would be easier for a non-Christian to engage with.
00:07:12
Speaker
And so, yeah, it certainly has happened. The Jesus of Evidence presentations that do a great opportunity for Christians to bring the non-Christian friends along to and allow them to have a conversation about the topics raised. And I know that many people have found it very, very helpful to, if you like, get over a hump to allow them the possibility of having a relationship with Jesus.
00:07:40
Speaker
That's great, Derek. I mean, you've already raised it. Please tell us more. What is Jesus, the evidence? What are some of the information you present? I guess it's very difficult to kind of quickly summarise it, I guess. But there really is good historical evidence that Christ's followers saw him alive after his death. It's the most logical explanation for what happened and the spread of Christianity
00:08:08
Speaker
that incredibly quickly happened after Jesus' death. And the best explanation for it is that his followers saw Jesus after his death. And the lives were transformed as a result of that, where they went from illiterate fishermen, ordinary people, to tunnelist advocates for the risen Christ. And the very fact that Christianity survived to this day is
00:08:37
Speaker
kind of testimony to that and testimony
Staying Focused on Jesus' Evidence
00:08:40
Speaker
to the truth of this. Now that's a very, very, one thing I'm talking about. There's miles more evidence than that. Yeah. That's a great summary. And one of the things I, as you described that, I found myself wondering, kind of Derek, is that, you know, sometimes when we think about evangelism and sharing our faith with our friends, we can get sidetracked and all kinds of side issues.
00:09:04
Speaker
Is there a degree to which you found that doing it this way, zeroing it in on Jesus and his claims and his evidence, that kind of cuts through some of the places where else we might get. I mean, why bother debating evolution or more evolution or whatever or some of the or, you know, politics or other things we get sucked into? We get it focused on Jesus. Does that sort of, you know, I mean, I mean, it's pointless having these conversations. If Jesus isn't the son of God, it's that kind of
00:09:33
Speaker
and relevant conversations, the most important thing is Jesus the Son of God and then you can work out all your view on these related topics that is most important and the thing is most important that is Jesus the Son of God, is there enough evidence for that? If there is, well, what are you going to do about it?
00:09:54
Speaker
Is there a particular, I'm just thinking, I'm hearing this, Derek, is there a particular kind of aspect of the evidence that most resonates with people that you found, that as you've spoken to people, as you've kind of shared this material, is there a particular part that people have found most persuasive, or they've hooked onto you a little bit more than others? Well, certainly the accuracy of the gospels and the reliability of the gospel information.
00:10:24
Speaker
is certainly something that people are interested in and can get connected with. Can you trust with information in the Bible? Hasn't been mucked about with, hasn't been distorted, hasn't been changed in any way. The evidence suggests that the evidence for how these documents were created looks most likely that they haven't been altered
00:10:53
Speaker
and they are what we're reading. We read today, okay, we're reading in English translations, but is essentially that which was written back in the first century, very shortly after Jesus' death.
00:11:10
Speaker
I'm sort of struck by the fact that you've been studying this for a long time. It's part of your own journey to play, as you described, you know, Lee Strabel's wonderful book, The Case for Christ. Folks listening to this thinking, you know what, this is really interesting. You're right. You know, focusing on Jesus is the way to go. How does somebody begin, perhaps a Christian listening to this who hasn't had the benefit of reading all the stuff that you've read and thinking all the stuff that you've read?
00:11:32
Speaker
What's the best way for would you would you advise someone to begin getting their evangelism focused on Jesus? Think about the evidence, being familiar with it so they can then share that with their friends,
Sharing Resources on Evidence
00:11:42
Speaker
neighbors, colleagues. Where do you start? Go on the Jesus, the evidence website. I see a good link. And well, I mean, what I've tried to do is
00:11:52
Speaker
The booklet is available on the website. We'll send them out for free. If you want more than one copy, we'll send more than one copy. I sent 15 copies once to a fellow that was wanting to distribute them to his BB trip, so that was fine, no problem. I'm happy to send as many of them out. What I've tried to do is condense all this information into a handy booklet form, if you like.
00:12:21
Speaker
It's a good place to start, a good introduction, shall we say, to the evidence. You can then, I've made some suggestions about things you might want to read and things you might want to look at and so on and so forth in the booklet. So that would probably be the best, I would say the best thing to do.
00:12:40
Speaker
I've done the legwork for you. Love it. It would be great to hear, Derek, just how this resource has impacted people. Do you have any stories that you could share with us? Yeah, sure. I mean, as I say, I know some people have come to faith and I'd be wrong to say that this is the sole reason they've come to faith, but it's been a big part of getting them to move towards a faith in Jesus Christ.
00:13:08
Speaker
It's not important for everybody. I guess it's for people that they think there's no evidence for Jesus. They think it's a purely faith thing or you've been born into it or whatever. So it gets people over a hump, if you like, and then leaves them open to the possibility of a relationship with Jesus. And that's the key thing.
00:13:34
Speaker
that intrigues me. And I think you mentioned this at one point, I can't remember if it was in your testimony here or on the testimony on the website, where you talked about the fact, you know, you were quite surprised when you first came across this, that there was evidence that reminded me of I were doing an event at Aberdeen University three or four years ago, and I did a lunchtime event on the resurrection.
00:13:52
Speaker
And so it's similar to kind of territory really. And the student coming up to me afterwards and we were chatting and he shared how he actually used to be a Christian, had abandoned his faith, walked away because, you know, he thought people just believed because they believed. And then it's suddenly been confronted in his lunch bar with actually like a shed load of evidence. I remember his question my dying day. He was like, he said, what do I do? I think I made a horrible mistake. I just so actually, thankfully, Jesus is in the business of horrible mistakes.
00:14:17
Speaker
What I'm struck by Derek, why do more people and even Christians not know about the evidence? Because I think I've seen Christians eyes go wide when they're like, actually, we've got really good reasons for our faith. We've got confidence for our evangelism. Why is this not more widely known, do you think? I don't know. I've asked that question myself through the years. I really don't know. I don't know whether it's
00:14:43
Speaker
secular media, I don't want to talk about it, or people, maybe Christians, people that have been born with Christians and I've got a relationship with Jesus, it's less important to them, I don't know.
00:15:00
Speaker
I've no idea. I've really no idea. So that's why I do this, because there didn't seem to be anything that existed when I started. Now, admittedly, there is so much now. And there are organisations that do this kind of stuff nowadays. But as I say, I've started it. So I carry on.
00:15:20
Speaker
Yeah. By the way, before Christie jumps in with the next question, just to say, I'm so glad you mentioned the kind of Jesus, the evidence resource for listeners. You're not familiar with, with, with Derek stuff. If you look at the show notes for this episode, whatever podcast app you are using, you'll see the show notes. We're going to put a link to Derek to your resource there to Jesus, the evidence of people come, come, come and find you and look up all that stuff that you're doing. But sorry, Christie, go ahead.
00:15:45
Speaker
No, Darren, I was just, when you first introduced yourself and spoke about your story a bit, I was really struck that you came to Christ in your late thirties and you mentioned that it was the evidence that kind of compelled you or something meaty or something you could follow. But was there, I'd love to hear more, just kind of like finish where we started in some ways. What was it that, was there anything else happening in your life in your thirties that in particular? Cause I feel like that's quite late considering when most people
00:16:15
Speaker
Back from the big question. Yeah, sure. I mean, I was I was going through a divorce, but that wasn't why I was looking at it. It was it was I was I guess it was bizarre that I've I was a full time father and husband and so on. And all of a sudden I was going through this divorce and I had this time available to think. And I guess that that was the thing more than anything else. I had the time of a time
00:16:45
Speaker
available time to have to actually concentrate on this and look into it in detail. So that kind of set me going at that time. I think that's helpful to remember because I think sometimes something one of the things I've been struck by Derek that to go
Personal Challenges and Faith Examination
00:17:01
Speaker
The Jesus, the evidence approach is absolutely phenomenal. But I'm also, I suppose I'm also conscious that people need to be in a place, don't they, where they're open to hear that, that, that, that evidence. And the same with like if a Muslim knocked on my door and said, hey, would you be interested in the evidence for Mohammed? I'm probably going to say no, actually. So I think it's, you know, it's those two things together, isn't it? It's looking for that spiritual openness, praying that the Lord brings the right people across the path and then being bold and confident in sharing Jesus.
00:17:29
Speaker
I was watching a couple of YouTube videos recently that I fell in America and he asks, if Christianity was true, would you become one? And it's amazing how many people say no. You know, it's, personally, it was, I wanted to find out, I wanted to come to a decision on this. So I was keen to go at it and come to a decision. And it was a great opportunity, I guess,
00:17:56
Speaker
when I made the decision. And I guess it was a funny thing. It wasn't kind of lightning bolts and I just all of a sudden knew. I kind of said to myself, I did an alpha course and I got to the end of it and I thought, right, okay, there's all this evidence, all this evidence here. What am I going to do with it? And I thought, you know, I'll give it a go.
00:18:23
Speaker
I'll give, I'll give it a go. Okay, right. Let's see what happens. And incredible things have happened as a result of just that, you know, it's a, how do you describe it? A kind of low key kind of decision I made, but had incredible consequences. Yeah.
00:18:45
Speaker
That's right. I think that's been shown by the way that the Lord has used you. Derek, we've come to the top of 20 minutes, so time goes fast. It's been fantastic having you on the show. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for the opportunity. You are very welcome. Again, strongly encourage listeners to check out Derek's website, Jesus the Evidence. We've got links to that in the show notes. We'll also put a link to Derek's testimony.
Conclusion and Next Episode Tease
00:19:09
Speaker
It's like a longer testimony on the Solas website where there is also a link.
00:19:12
Speaker
to Jesus the Evidence. And we, Christy and I, we're back in two weeks time with another guest, another topic for another episode of Pep Talk. So for all at home or driving the car or jogging, wherever you're listening to podcasts, thanks for listening to us and we'll see you again soon. Bye for now.