Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Darker Shades of Black Ep49 (Ex Machina Review)
20 Plays1 month ago
In this review we explore the concept of artificial life and the likelihood of a created being becoming sentient. We examine Alex Garland's science fiction film Ex Machina.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Disclaimers
00:00:03
Speaker
Warning, this podcast is a Korea Black production. This is a podcast for adults only. It is not a podcast for people who think podcast hosts should be emotional friends, spiritual advisors, surrogate parents, or role models for their children, grandchildren, or potential offspring.
00:00:19
Speaker
This podcast may contain all sorts of trigger warning type content such as graphic language, harsh judgments, and microaggressive behavior. If you are a sensitive person or reality challenged, or you only listen to podcasts that agree with your religious views, personal philosophy, ideology, or feelings about life in general, please do not listen to this podcast.
00:00:38
Speaker
All comments, compliments, and complaints should be sent to koreablack at koreablackproductions.com. Thank you.
Exploring AI in Ex Machina: Themes and Ethical Dilemmas
00:01:34
Speaker
All y'all, I'm back with Gianna. And today we are going to Ex Machina. Now, me and Gianna apparently are fans of Alex Garland, because we seem to like everything, at least that we've reviewed, we seem to like by him, whether it's him as the writer or the director.
00:01:51
Speaker
This film is a little different than the other stuff I've seen by him, though, because at first when I was watching this, I wasn't exactly sure if I was digging this or not. And then once we get deeper into the film, ah was kind of seeing where he was going.
00:02:05
Speaker
So to just to start off right at the top, to me, this film was about if a man creates artificial life, does the created being have a natural right to exist?
00:02:18
Speaker
Or is that created being subject to the whims of the creator? Which also takes us to the question of why a person would want to create artificial life in the first place. And to be honest with you, I really don't know the answer to that question.
00:02:31
Speaker
because I wouldn't want to do this. Because to me, it just seems like what you're really saying is you want something that's less than human to act like a human, but it's bound to your will.
00:02:43
Speaker
That's similar to some kind of twisted or perverse way of having a pet. For anyone who's watched Westworld, that's basically what Westworld is about, right? It's a whole amusement park of artificial robots who look like humans who do anything you want them to do.
00:02:59
Speaker
The difference with that is that is specifically created for entertainment. Like, you know, those are sex bots and you know why they're created. Yeah.
00:03:09
Speaker
This is a little different. He wasn't really creating. I mean, one of them was, but he wasn't really creating it for the purposes of having entertainment or sex. Yeah. He was trying to create something that would evolve.
00:03:22
Speaker
However, it's bound to him. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the part that I don't understand. I think in theory, artificial life is amazing, but I don't understand why you wanted it except to fulfill some kind of basic primal needs that people seem to want served.
00:03:38
Speaker
That's really what it always comes down to. They either want their own slave that they can treat like shit and it's legal to do so, or they want it for sexual purposes. Yeah.
00:03:49
Speaker
Then you have the problem of, like I said, we said this before in the show earlier shows, so if you see ah master, because what going to call them, or owner, beating the shit out of their robot, female, male, whatever, or if it's a little kid-looking one.
00:04:03
Speaker
That is going to have an instant reaction to regular humans because they're not going to sit there and watch something get beat to death when it's screaming and crying and yelling for help. Yeah. Even if it isn't yelling for help.
00:04:14
Speaker
It's your natural instinct said to do something when you see so ah someone who looks like a human or an animal, for that matter, getting the shit beat out of them. But legally, you can't because that is a possession. It's no different than a car.
00:04:28
Speaker
If you want to beat the shit out of your your car, you can. It's yours. So what's the difference between that and a robot? To me, this just seems like a twisted and perverse way of having a pet.
00:04:40
Speaker
But yet a lot of people want this. It's true because like, why make the robot look so real that you don't know it's a robot, right? right That's the whole thing is like, it's it's different if you make something and like, you can clearly tell it's not human, but making something that looks and seems human, like that's where it gets weird, right?
00:05:01
Speaker
And then you always have the option to, if I want to cut this thing, because it's the thing, this thing's head off, I can and y'all can't do shit to me. But why did you make it look like a human then if you didn't expect that reaction?
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah. See, that's what I don't understand. And and so that's what I was kept thinking when I was watching this movie.
Film Setting and Character Introduction
00:05:20
Speaker
he He wants to create artificial light. And with him in particular, I think his is like an ego thing. I really do think he was trying to be God. Yeah.
00:05:29
Speaker
And he wanted that thing bound. It's like when we saw that in what, Prometheus? Was it Prometheus or Covenant? Yeah, where he's talking to his machine and David, I guess it was. And same thing.
00:05:40
Speaker
I created you. You owe your existence to me, even though I want you to look like me. ah just It's an ego thing, that but it's a twisted and reverse ego thing. And it's so odd to me that that that's where we're going to head.
00:05:54
Speaker
Nathan says, the Nathan, I guess is the bad guy the film, was saying that one day the AIs are going to look back on us and wonder when we're going to be extinct. you know What is our purpose with our crude tools and our crude languages?
00:06:09
Speaker
And he's absolutely right. yes They would evolve past us at a faster rate than we evolved. So why would they need us anymore? So you what you're really doing is contributing to your own extinction, which doesn't make any damn sense.
00:06:22
Speaker
This guy, the Nathan, who's the CEO of this tech company does have a huge God complex, right? You can tell that he thinks he's the greatest shit ever.
00:06:32
Speaker
However, like that house is awesome. Dude, the house is amazing. Yeah. I kept saying the only I didn't like is he has a set in the woods and there's a lot of bugs in the woods. And I like open land. i like the sea for miles.
00:06:45
Speaker
I would love, but you see how remote that you had to get there by helicopter. would say that's perfect for you, right? Absolutely. It wasn't even just helicopter. Helicopter drops you off and you still have to walk like a mile just to get there.
00:06:56
Speaker
That's right. But he said it was two hours and they were still going across his territory to get to the house. That's what I want. Now that sucks when it comes to the grocery shopping. Yeah, well, I mean, when you have that kind of money, you just get your your groceries airlifted in, right?
00:07:11
Speaker
Although, you know When we get to the end of the movie, let's let's go back to that point because how, yeah, how does he get stuff there? But let me let me talk about that later. So the story starts with we have a coder that, like, they show kind of in ah in a quick scene in the beginning that he's won a competition that allows him to go spend a week with this seat this CEO of the tech company that he works for.
00:07:38
Speaker
And you even see in the beginning, like it kind of does this flash where it shows a camera watching him. So like, it gives you the feeling that these people are all being watched, right? So like you said, then we get to the scene where he gets airlifted to,
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, they don't say what state this is even. No, they don't say it. There's no, the beginning is pretty quick. Like they do a very quick montage of like the guy wins. We ah then we see him transported to the estate.
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah. I have to assume it's in like Pacific Northwest, right? From the the way the geography looks. Yeah, and and in the weather. Although I read it was filmed in Norway. Well, I was going to say, because I was like, I bet you really liked the scenery. Yes, absolutely.
00:08:20
Speaker
It was similar to what you would see in like the Scandinavian countries. But you can tell that it's all like green screen. Like you can. Like there's certain points where they're out climbing rocks and stuff, because Craig was watching it with me.
00:08:33
Speaker
And we're both like, yeah, that's not real. Yeah. I mean, being in the industry, it's easier for me to tell. I'm sure like it looks fine for most people to watch it, right? yeah but for me, like knowing and doing that for a living, like I'm just kind of like...
00:08:49
Speaker
yeah i don't know So that was, and was it wasn't distracting to you? No, it wasn't distracting, but but like, it's something that I always look for, right? I always analyze it now. Because I'm always like, are they on location or are they in a studio? yeah Like we were talking about, he gets dropped off at the helicopter and the guy's like, ah yeah, you still have to walk, like, just follow the river until you see the house.
00:09:13
Speaker
and again it's just this beautiful landscape and he gets to this really cool house and at the door he has to get a picture taken and it makes him a little key card and that's how he gets into the house so still he hasn't like there's no one to greet him right this nathan guy has oh sorry and the guy's name is caleb is our programmer caleb wanders the house and finds nathan boxing for hitting a punching bag and in a punching bag yeah and Nathan tells him that like he's working out because he had a he's got a bad hangover.
00:09:47
Speaker
just the way this guy talks, it's kind of annoying, you know, because he's like, oh, I like to kill it with. a What did he say? I can't i didn't write that exact quote, but he's like hydration and exercise whatever. like it's yeah talks Like, a douche yeah yeah, he's got these part of that bro culture. yeah Yeah. He just happens to be very wealthy, apparently.
00:10:06
Speaker
So he can do whatever he wants to do. Kind of funny scene because Then Caleb makes a comment, oh oh well how was the party? And the guy was like, ah what party? So clearly he's like setting the stage of this guy's just drunk, basically. He does drink a lot. He's by himself in the middle of the woods, right? As far as we know at this point. So it's just like, all he does is work on his technology and they get hammered, it seems like.
00:10:30
Speaker
He does work out a lot, though. That's true. You're right. He works out. So he works on his AI, works out, and then gets hammered. I guess if you get hammered, I mean, I don't know how you work out your liver, but the rest of them is in good shape. But he drinks every day.
00:10:43
Speaker
Yeah. A lot. I mean, he likes to stay with that. He likes to have that constant buzz all the time. Yeah. So he starts to show Nathan around a little bit and like kind of get to know him.
00:10:54
Speaker
And he explains to him that the key cards only open certain doors. So he tells him to scan it like this one room and if it opens, it's his. So the key card works and we see this room.
00:11:07
Speaker
that's it's not like it's kind like a hotel roomish style but like a nice hotel room right it's like a bed a tv and a little bathroom area and it's all underground so you see like there's this moment where nathan senses he's disappointed and is like oh is because there's no windows and then he explains to him that this is like a compound so or like a research facility research facility and not a house right so it's not really built to be you know the rooms aren't really built to be like gorgeous or whatever like these great views also yeah well he's underground anyway so yeah i don't know why he would need windows i thought what he was gonna say is the walls were gonna change and give him like like that holodeck scenery thing but that didn't happen that's why i thought he was gonna say there's no windows because i can just make whatever scenes i want to happen although the view from upstairs on the patio is just ridiculous yeah when they were upstairs and he's on that little balcony or whatever you're like wow
00:12:03
Speaker
Plus he has the river going right next to his house. Yeah. It's it's very cool. The scene the way they did the scenery was just gorgeous. Yeah. And so this interaction is super weird though, right? Because Nathan is trying to like, like Caleb, I feel like is under the impression that he's there to like get a mentorship or like learn. And Nathan is just treating him like a bro.
00:12:24
Speaker
Yeah. So it's like kind of this awkward like weirdness that they have when he's first there. Yeah, Caleb doesn't know how to react to him. Yeah, he doesn't know what's going on.
00:12:35
Speaker
And they don't really say, like, does he get extra money for being here
Turing Test and AI-Human Interaction
00:12:38
Speaker
or anything. That's yeah. But what he does know is he doesn't want to blow this. Yeah. And then Nathan's trying to just say, hey, just relax, dude. Just act like we're just two dudes hanging out.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. However, generally, two dudes hanging out, the other dude ain't going to fire you. Right, that's true. Yeah, like, there is that level of, like, nervousness, right? Because, yes, it's like your big boss, you know?
00:12:59
Speaker
So in the room Nathan tells him, he's like, basically says, hey, I want to let you in on some really cool stuff that I'm doing, but you have to sign an NDA. And of course, Caleb looks over it and, you know, a lot of people have never seen an NDA.
00:13:15
Speaker
So he's he's confused and he's mentioned something about he doesn't know if he should sign it. And Nathan talks him into it because he's like, look, dude, did you come out here to see some cool shit? Like, we can just hang out and drink if that's what you want to do. But like, you're on the forefront of technology here. So he's like, if you sign this NDA, i could tell you about all the things I've been doing.
00:13:36
Speaker
I'm just surprised you wait till he gets to the house to have him sign that. That's true, right? Like you'd think that think the for anyone who doesn't know non-disclosure agreement would cover, yeah, going to the property and everything because now this now he knows, mean, maybe that's included in the NDA once he gets there.
00:13:53
Speaker
Right. Yeah. You'd think that there would be all kinds of legal stuff before he even gets on the helicopter. And I will say there's one thing. I guess we kind of find this out later, but if if you're just picked in a contest, you don't know him personally. So you don't know if he's a nut job and you're going to be stuck with him for a week.
00:14:14
Speaker
yeah You know? I'd be a little worried. Me, personally. I'd just be a little worried bringing some dude out for a week that I don't even know. That's the first time I met you. And we're going to sleep in the same house together. yeah I don't know what you're in. You might be in the voodoo and shit. Who knows?
00:14:29
Speaker
I don't know if I'd feel comfortable doing that. be weird. So once he says the NDA, Nathan informs him that he's been working on artificial intelligence. And he starts explaining his experiment. And Caleb realizes that what...
00:14:44
Speaker
he's been brought there to do is perform a live Turing test. So a Turing test is basically like a test of a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent behavior that would be indistinguishable of a human.
00:14:58
Speaker
So basically trying to figure out if the AI seems human. They do this with chess tournaments where a chess master will play against a chess computer program and they have a chess tournament to see if they can beat each other.
00:15:12
Speaker
And you're supposed to be able to, you're supposed to, the computer program is supposed to be so good that it thinks just like a human or it makes its moves like a human. I think we're still a ways away from what happens in this film, but that's the point of the turn test too, where you couldn't, because it even he ah Caleb even brings it up the fact that We're not supposed to, the way a true term test happens is you're not supposed to see the machine.
00:15:35
Speaker
And he's in then Nathan says, no, we're past that. We're past that. I just want to i want you to interact so you two can see whether you can tell or not, whether she looks real or acts real to you.
00:15:46
Speaker
And so there's a lot of sense to that too. You're right, and technically, like he shouldn't have even been told that it's artificial intelligence. He should have just interacted with the the person and then later on, have like see if he could realize that it was an AI or a human, right?
00:16:01
Speaker
Like if you tell him up front, then he's looking for stuff. He's looking for flaws. If you don't tell him at all, then he's going to treat this person like a regular person and then notice flaws yeah or differences, you see?
00:16:13
Speaker
so But that the the Nathan, like I said, he's got a God complex, so it's his rules. So he tells Caleb about this robot that he's made called Ava, who's played by Alicia Vikander.
00:16:25
Speaker
And I gotta wonder, like when we do these female robots, do they always just make them like the hottest person they can find? Like, really? mean, you know what I'm talking about, right? I mean, I guess though, if you're building your own robot, you're gonna make it a hot chick, right? Gianna, creation is supposed to be beautiful.
00:16:47
Speaker
So you would not make a robot that's 500 pounds named Bertha. You just wouldn't do that. Prometheus, you they cast a really hot Scandinavian. Oh, her husband. As well. Yeah, her husband. Her husband. Yeah.
00:17:05
Speaker
So yeah, you make a good point. Yeah.
00:17:09
Speaker
You're never going to see that in a movie. You'll never see that. this is it it's not gonna It's not equality they're trying to attain with artificial intelligence.
00:17:20
Speaker
They are trying to do how the Romans and Greeks thought of themselves. When they built statues, they only built them in peak perfect condition. You didn't see them with man tits and a gut. You didn't see no statues like that. They all had perfect bodies, six-pack abs, muscles, everything, you know?
00:17:39
Speaker
all right you make a valid point but like just to say to differentiate that she's not human he has left her like her face just the just the face part of her is human looking and then her feet and her hands are human but the rest of her looks like a robot yeah you can see her wiring yeah it's very clear that she's not human so they do the first interaction and it's very awkward.
00:18:09
Speaker
Like, and it's interesting because Caleb is in like a little caged room looking into another room that contains Ava, although she has a bigger area.
Ethical Quandaries and Power Dynamics
00:18:19
Speaker
Yeah. Well, hers is really like a bedroom, right?
00:18:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So when he first goes in there, she's just kind of like shyly walking up to him, you know, and she sits down and she asks him a couple of questions. And this is just kind of a short session, just to, I guess, like let Caleb kind of see what,
00:18:37
Speaker
Ava is. Yeah. So after this set, and like I said, they just do like a little bit of conversation back and forth, but nothing too interesting, I guess, like just kind of like, who are you? You know, this, because I mean, and this is, we also should point out that this is the first person Ava is meeting outside of her creator, right outside of Nathan.
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah. So she's a little confused as well and hesitant because she doesn't know how to act around a new person either. So this little session happens and then Caleb goes back to his room and figures out when he goes to turn on the TV in the room, it's actually a closed network, a CCTV.
00:19:19
Speaker
So he's able to watch Ava in her room from his bedroom. Whenever wants to Yeah, which is kind of creepy, but whatever. Yeah. Although, again, is it creepy when it's not a real person?
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you're right. There's again that like... See, that's the problem. Line of what is... Yeah, you're right. Because what's there between her and my vacuum cleaner? I mean, I could look at that all day and you don't think that's creepy.
00:19:49
Speaker
yeah But because that looks like a chick, it's creepy. Yeah. See? Now during this, there's a blackout or a power, not a blackout, but a power. Power outage. Powder outage, yeah.
00:20:00
Speaker
And like when this happens, Caleb can't get out of his room. Like the the shows that the house goes into like full lockdown and the key cards don't work anymore. So once the power surge or cut is over, he goes out of his room and he finds Nathan hammered, asks him about it. And he says that the power cuts happen on a regular basis and that he's working on it because he had like, I don't know if he explains it now or in the next scene, but he talks about how he paid all this money for people to come out and, and wire the system and it doesn't work.
00:20:30
Speaker
Technically there shouldn't be any problems with this house. Yeah, it should be perfect because he spent all the money on making it perfect. Yeah, I'm i'm assuming this house, what, a couple million dollars? Yeah, at least.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, depending on how much technological reinforcement, right? And security, like, yeah, I'd say minimum 5 million. Plus, you had to pay for those guys to stay out there and build it.
00:20:52
Speaker
That's true, yeah. But he he must have millions, so. Well, because that's the thing. Again, like, just to go off on a tangent here, how does he get running plumbing out there? How does he get...
00:21:04
Speaker
like you know electricity like they would have had to run all these things out there or figure out a way to like hydro power maybe because the river's there yeah i was thinking it was like well water or getting it from that yeah that river that's next to him and then his power i was thinking solar power yeah that's true And we don't really know, like, do they, they don't really say what year this movie set either. Right. So we don't know if there's more advanced. They don't ever, cause as soon as he wins the contest, he's flown to the complex. Yeah. They don't really give you an idea of what the real world is like. yeah
00:21:38
Speaker
So Caleb goes to bed and the next morning he wakes up and sees a Japanese woman in his room. And he's like, what the fuck? And we find out he goes to breakfast and finds out from Nathan that this woman's name is Kyoko and that she doesn't speak any English. And part of that is because that way she can't tell secrets because like if they talk to each other then like she doesn't understand and therefore cannot like relate that information. But she can repeat what she sees though, that's the thing.
00:22:16
Speaker
I'm going to give you the translation of what she is. This is a woman who is used for sex doesn't talk. Now, to some men, that is paradise.
00:22:27
Speaker
Not me, of course. But to some men, having a beautiful woman that don't say nothing, but she cooks and cleans and services you whenever your need arises,
00:22:39
Speaker
Do you think that's why this character is Japanese? Because traditionally that culture, like the woman is submissive. Like do that's probably why that's the character. Now, honestly, when I was watching I didn't think about it like that, but it would come off that way to a lot of people.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah. Because they a lot of people think that in the Asian culture, women are subservient to the men. So it would come off that way. I wasn't thinking of that then. was just thinking the fact that she's hot and she doesn't talk, but she cooks and cleans. Yeah.
00:23:10
Speaker
To some men, not me, is perfect. Yeah. know? Because there's no stress, no hassle. She don't complain. Yeah. So you see there's a lot of upsides to that.
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah. To some men. A later scene that's, I think, after the next Ava session, they're having dinner and she knocks over a glass of wine by accident. And Nathan, like, starts yelling and screaming at her. Right. So, yeah. So basically, again, reinforcing, like, this subservience because she just, like, leaves and, you know, cleans it up or whatever.
00:23:41
Speaker
But this is a world of his own making. This is how he likes it. Yeah, exactly. Everything is there to service him in some kind of way. It doesn't matter what it is. yeah Everything is here at his whim.
00:23:52
Speaker
And that's why he set it up this way, to be miles and miles away from civilization. And he can do be his own little god of his own kingdom. you know Yeah. So they do the next Ava session. And it's a little more comfortable. And she almost is like flirty with him in a way.
00:24:12
Speaker
So like they start to get this little bit of a rapport and he starts asking her questions about her and who she is. And she asks him questions about his life as well. Yeah.
00:24:25
Speaker
And in these questions, we find out that he's doesn't have family. He doesn't have ah a girlfriend. Caleb is kind of on his own.
00:24:37
Speaker
And he's like a master coder. Yeah, he's exceptional coder. His parents died in a car accident, but he was in the car too. Yes, yeah. But they got the brunt of it and died. He was in the back seat, and I think he was in a hospital something for for several months. and then while he was there, he started being taking an interest in coding, because in hospitals, a lot of the nurses do a lot of coding.
00:24:56
Speaker
And that's where that came from, that he wanted to be, he just, for whatever reason, he excelled at that. And boom, he became a great coder. Yeah, so the next, like, the next few scenes of this movie is basically back and forth between, like, the Ava sessions and then Caleb talking with Nathan about what he's experiencing, right?
00:25:16
Speaker
Yeah. So you get, like, so after this, I think it's after this session, it's a little confused in my head because it's all kind of, he does ask Nathan, like, did you program her to flirt with me?
00:25:28
Speaker
And he says no, he's like, and this is where he explained the whole, that you're the first person outside of me she's met, so like maybe she just has a crush on you. And then he also asks of like why, again, why he made her look like her, right? Because he could he said you could make ah robot that's a ah ah gray box, he said. Well, yeah, he was saying why did he why did he give her gender?
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah. Because it could have been, i mean, it it really could have been a great box with wheels. Yeah. But this is a funny conversation because then Nathan goes, what are you really asking? If you can fuck her, basically?
00:26:03
Speaker
you and he' like He's like, and to answer your question, yes, you can. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Because again, With men, it will always come down to chasing women.
00:26:19
Speaker
yeah That's why he made her look like that and made her able to have sex. yeah It always will come down to that, ah no matter especially if you're rich. So in these sessions too, Ava decides to at one point dress herself up to look, to like hide her robotic parts.
00:26:37
Speaker
So then it's almost even creepier because now it does seem like he's just talking to a woman, right? It becomes it becomes confusing. Right.
00:26:49
Speaker
Right. I guess it kind of would be because although this is what's supposed to happen. Yeah, they're supposed to be progression. And he doesn't seem to realize that that's the whole point of AI is supposed to get to as human like as possible.
00:27:02
Speaker
However, when he's confronted with it, he's freaked out by it. Yeah. You know, but I don't know what he was thinking. What are you expecting to happen? But I'm to say, like, don't know how I would feel either. Like, if you're sitting across from something that looks and sounds like it's a real person, like, how do you emotionally handle that, right?
00:27:21
Speaker
Like, how do you separate that in your mind that this is not a real person, you know? Well, true. I mean, because I was going ask you, with is this something you would want? A robot that looks and sees like. No, no, no,
00:27:34
Speaker
Would you want, even if it's just a friend, would you have visits and conversate with something you know is an artificial being? I don't know. That just seems weird. See, that's the question. I don't know. Yeah. Because it's like, when I talk to you, I know you're a real person.
00:27:51
Speaker
And we learn and talk about and discuss things. When I talk to a machine, I know no matter what I say to that machine, that thing's not real. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, so why am I talking to it?
00:28:03
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and if I die, it's just going to go on to the next person. It's not going to miss me. It's not going to miss our conversations because it's a machine. But what's funny is this kind of parallels the Black Mirror episode that this main guy is in.
00:28:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I'm so bad, I don't know how to pronounce his name. I think it's Dommel Gleeson is the main character that's playing as Caleb. yeah He was in a Black Mirror episode where he is killed in the first few minutes, and then his wife is able to use this AI service that starts out as just like a messaging service, but then it learns.
00:28:39
Speaker
So then you can call and then it's his voice and they actually have conversations, even though he's dead, like this isn't real, but it just becomes so real, you know? And it is like, do you think that's a good idea? Like, I don't know. I don't i don't think so, actually.
00:28:54
Speaker
But here's the thing, even if the person, like God forbid, your other half passes away, right? And then you have a clone of him that matches all the mannerisms that Craig had.
00:29:08
Speaker
Here's the thing, you still know that's not Craig. That's my point. Now, had you not known ah known about the switch, that might be different. But you know that's not Craig.
00:29:19
Speaker
yeah credit Craig is at the bottom of some grave rotting and you're talking to a typewriter. yeah You see what saying? That's the problem. And you know that. Now, maybe some people can separate themselves, but I don't think so. um think yeah Although that might be a generational thing too.
00:29:36
Speaker
The first time it happens, like in our generation, okay, it's weird. But what if you have children or grandchildren? They might be used to it. So that cause you that's something that you can learn to get used to and you treat like a regular person.
00:29:49
Speaker
yeah So to that that generation, there would be no difference. So it could be that way too. Yeah.
00:29:57
Speaker
So during one of these meetings, there's another power outage. And as it happens, Ava suddenly turns to him and goes, you can't trust Nathan. So now we get this weirdness, right? Because Caleb is already feeling weird about Nathan because like we said, he's a drunk bro.
00:30:16
Speaker
You know, like he's very strange. Like it's not what he, what, not what Nathan expected. So now he gets this warning from Ava and it kind of throws his head into a tailspin. Right? Yeah.
00:30:28
Speaker
So one night after their sessions, you know, Nathan's again hammered and when Caleb's helping him to his room, he sees the like where Caleb is observing.
00:30:39
Speaker
Cause I've heard to say they show this earlier from, or sorry, from Nathan's point of view that that he has like this observation area set up where he can actually look and listen to the conversations that are happening in these sessions.
00:30:53
Speaker
It's part of his bedroom, um which which we find out is connected later. But yeah, this whole section that he's made where he's got these monitors and he can see every inch of the facility, no matter where you go.
00:31:05
Speaker
But after Caleb questions him too, he takes Caleb down to the lab and shows him where he actually made these this robot, made Ava, and explains that her mind is, that she's using him, that she's using what she's learning about him to manipulate him.
00:31:23
Speaker
Right. But he doesn't believe it because he's sucked into this. He, I think to Caleb, it's just a pretty woman flirting with him at this point, right? So like he is, he is, I guess, falling for this robot.
00:31:37
Speaker
However, there's a part in there where she asks but she she knocks the power out. Yeah. And then she goes, are you and Nathan friends? And he hesitates.
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah. And I understood what he's talking about because I used to have a horrible former roommate who We even would hang out sometimes. But I don't think either one of us would call each other friends. And we lived together.
00:32:02
Speaker
yeah And that relationship ended up being disastrous because at some point, the real feelings we had against each other came out. And we went our separate ways.
00:32:13
Speaker
And this wasn't like a sexual thing. She was just my roommate. I related to that because... He couldn't answer it straight out. He hesitated and paused. She asked him point blank, is he a good friend? And he couldn't answer it at first.
00:32:25
Speaker
yeah So I understood what he was talking about because he saw warning signs with Nathan. yeah That's what the hesitation was about. He knew, I don't know if this guy is a friend because I'm getting some red flags in my head.
00:32:37
Speaker
I'm saying something's wrong with this guy and I can't really put my finger on it, but I can't call him a friend either. Even though he knows he's being recorded. you kind of glossed over that we didn't talk about how during one of these power cuts Ava does she admits that she's the one causing them that she's able to like the what she uses to charge her battery she's able to save up that power and then send it back into the system to cause an outage yeah So basically she tells Caleb she's been doing this so that she can warn him because they she knows for sure that the, because Caleb's worried that even in these outages, like it's a trick that Nathan has planted cameras somewhere to watch them and see what they do when they think they're not being watched.
00:33:22
Speaker
Yeah. So he's still like completely suspect of what's going on. Which I would be worried too. Yeah, because you don't know what's going on. You're part of a test, right? So like, how do you know?
00:33:34
Speaker
What's going on? When ah Ava confesses to Caleb that you should not trust Nathan, and then Nathan asks, during the power outage, what does Ava say to you?
00:33:44
Speaker
Would you, Gianna, have confessed what happened? I don't know, because like, you have to think about where Caleb's mind is, right? He is like falling in love with this AI, right? Not in the beginning. It took a little bit to get to that part. You're right. You're right. So you're right. In the first power cut where she tells him don't trust, I think maybe he's just too confused, right? Like it kind of threw him that she said that because that first power cut was very short.
00:34:08
Speaker
Yeah. So she basically tells him that and he's like, what are you talking about? And then the power comes back on and she pretends that they were just continuing whatever conversation they were having. See, I think I might have told Nathan because I'm thinking Nathan has cameras everywhere.
00:34:23
Speaker
And I also probably think this is part of the test. Yeah, you're right. See, you see what I'm saying? And what he did was he lied. He said they didn't really say anything. because remember, when the power comes back on, she starts talking about books and artwork.
00:34:36
Speaker
Like, that's they were talking about. Yeah. yeah And I'd be worried that he had cameras around, and he was it this was part of the test to see if he was going to be honest with Nathan. yeah See? So that's why I would have probably said something.
00:34:50
Speaker
Cause you don't know, you don't ah i Remember Nathan's not your friend and she sure as hell ain't your friend. So you're kind of on your own here trying to figure out how to walk this maze. But I think that's the problem. I think he is suspect of Nathan. So I think that's part of why he doesn't tell him, right? Exactly. Because he doesn't know what's going on. Yeah. You're probably right. Yeah.
00:35:09
Speaker
I think that's what it is is because Nathan gives off those vibes of like, not like a being weird and not maybe being the most trustworthy person. i think that's why he protected that information.
00:35:19
Speaker
And because he tries so hard to say, just relax. We're just two dudes hanging out. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And when usually people do that, it's a red flag. Yeah, it's more sinister. There's something Exactly.
00:35:32
Speaker
Because they' they're trying to basically say, I know you don't trust me, but I'm going to make you trust me because I need you to get over this yeah for us to function together. And that's not the way you build trust. You have to build trust.
00:35:44
Speaker
You just don't make it. You have to build it. It has to grow. So... It's a red flag. So after one of the sessions, Caleb's is in his room and he sees on the CCTV that Nathan enters Ava's room and they kind of have what seems to be like a heated discussion. Oh, and he rips up a drawing that she had been creating. So I didn't mention that earlier that she does drawings and that she was showing Caleb because he was asking her like how she knew to draw these things since she's never actually been out of the compound.
00:36:16
Speaker
So it's just like another, like maybe her was uploaded with certain imagery, right? Well, she also says she doesn't know what it is she's drawing and she yeah she was hoping that he could tell her what it Yeah. yeah So that's another thing.
00:36:28
Speaker
There was a really interesting discussion or a thought experiment that he talks about with the black and white room, which was really interesting. And I'm probably going to get part of it wrong because I didn't write it down or anything, but he talks about how Like there's this color expert who was like trained in color, but all they could see in this room was black and white.
00:36:50
Speaker
And then once they leave the room, they actually see color for the first time. yeah And the whole experiment is that like a a robot is the person, is the one that's stuck in the black and white because they can never have that next level of understanding.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's similar to if you were born blind and all of a sudden you could see. Yeah. Imagine what your senses would do when you've never seen a thing in your entire life.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yeah. It would just, it'd be like a bomb going off in your head. All these sites. It's just like, what? I've never, all I've ever seen is darkness. And all sudden i've seeing colors, I'm seeing movement, everything. Yeah, it would be overwhelming probably for a regular human.
00:37:35
Speaker
For a machine, I don't know. It'd be, i guess, a whole bunch of data coming in they're trying to process. So back to this Nathan ripping up the drawing, this like reinforces what Ava's been telling him, right?
00:37:48
Speaker
So now Caleb is thinking that Nathan is like, you know he doesn't know what he's doing to these robots right he's building right so now he's like like you said is he using them for sex or like mutilation or like what is he actually building these ais for right so after this they're like him and nathan are again sitting around drinking and talking and caleb asks him what will happen well a at first i should say ava had asked in a session what happens if she fails the test because she knew she was being tested
00:38:22
Speaker
Right. And Caleb really didn't have an answer. So after he sees this happen, he does go and ask Nathan what will happen. And Nathan basically says he's going to reprogram her.
00:38:33
Speaker
Like regardless of whether she passes or not, she'll get reprogrammed because there's going to be a next version. Right. Like a next software version. like ah Like the next model car. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:43
Speaker
But I think because Caleb is now seeing this as a human and not as a robot, his whole thing is basically he's going to kill her. You know, that's how I think he takes it.
00:38:54
Speaker
Right. Right. Which again is crazy because it's ah it's a machine. But again, there is this is the problem you would have with people with, ah okay, the first generation of people to deal with this would have the toughest time.
00:39:09
Speaker
yeah Because they're gonna run into this. It's gonna be so human, so lifelike. um good I can't differentiate between you and a regular person. yeah So it's gonna be like, that that's that's the problem with this in my opinion.
00:39:22
Speaker
But I also think like part of the reason Nathan comes off as callous, right, is because he is keeping that separation. He understands that this is a robot and not a human.
00:39:33
Speaker
So he doesn't feel that sympathy or empathy towards this thing. right Right. Whereas Caleb, because hes he hasn't been around these or hasn't been around something that seems like so real, he is becoming emotionally attached to this robot.
00:39:48
Speaker
True. However, in Nathan's case, I really do think he sees himself as God. So these are all created beings to be, yeah to do with what he wants to. True. Yeah. So that, that helps with the separation. He doesn't get attached to them.
00:40:02
Speaker
They're all replaceable to him because he made them. He can make 50, he can make a thousand of them if he wanted to. Nathan passes out drunk and Caleb decides to take his key card so that he can have access to more areas.
Discovering Nathan's Experiments and AI's Sentience
00:40:16
Speaker
He goes into... Nathan's observation room, bedroom, and he looks on the computer and he finds all of these videos of past AIs, which is here we get to see a lot of boobs, by the way.
00:40:31
Speaker
Gotta have those boobs in the movie, right? So... Well, this was rated R, right? Yeah. But I'm just sitting there thinking, all right, and here we just get a bunch of shots of naked chicks.
00:40:43
Speaker
Well, you're supposed to look at it just as just body parts though. I know, but it is like, you know, you're seeing Ava this whole movie that doesn't, isn't naked. She's only like human for certain features, right?
00:40:57
Speaker
So then you see these videos of all these robots that he built that are fully skinned. yeah So they look completely naked, you know? In the videos, by the way, we do see how the the robots were lashing out at him.
00:41:13
Speaker
Yeah. Because I guess this was earlier AIs that hadn't gotten to the point of where Ava is. So they were questioning the creator as to why you won't let me out.
00:41:24
Speaker
Why won't you let me go? All this kind of stuff. Yeah, you see one that basically like destroys herself trying to get out. Yeah, she hits the wall so hard her hands come off. Yeah, and you see because an early in the movie they show a crack in the glass of where between Ava and Caleb's room.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah. And that kind of shows why it happened is this one robot like basically dria destroyed her hands and arms from trying to get out. Yeah, because he keeps looking at it and I thought it was odd. He never asked where'd that come from.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah. Not one time he never said, why is there a huge ass crack in the glass? Yeah, yeah you don't you know't want to tell me about that? they You never asked nothing? That had to come from something. didn't come like that.
00:42:07
Speaker
Something in it. you know But he never asked. So then he goes into Nathan's actual like bedroom, bed area, and we see Kyoko just completely naked on the bed.
00:42:19
Speaker
Well, I mean, what is her job? I guess, yeah. now Well, now we know for sure that's part of her job is she services Nathan. That's right. That's right. jesus She's on call. Whenever Nathan's ready to go, she's ready to go. Oh, she dance dances too. Yeah, I going to say, and dances. OK, in the movie, that was the dumbest part of this thing.
00:42:39
Speaker
That was the only thing I didn't like. I have nothing against Oscar Isaac. I think he's a great actor, but I never needed to see him dance. Never. that was just dumb i just like what yeah because they're in the middle i can't remember the exact conversation but caleb is confronting him about something and they're in the middle of this conversation and he basically he's like what are you gonna about it he's like what i do gonna dance or something like that i mean the line ridiculous and then him and kiyoko nathan and kyoko break into this choreographed dance and you're just like what the is going on
00:43:13
Speaker
um'm I'm sure there's some artistic reason for that. I didn't know what it was and I didn't care because I thought it was stupid. I just don't. If I wanted to watch a musical or music video, I would.
00:43:25
Speaker
But that's not what I was watching this for. So whatever. So back to the Kyoko in the bed. And then there's a bunch of these cupboards. so So Caleb starts opening him and he finds all of the other destroyed robot body parts hanging around.
00:43:41
Speaker
yeah And when he turns back to Kyoko, and by the way, I totally called this, she's a robot. She starts pulling the skin off of herself to show that she's also a robot. So now that we talk about it, reveal it. So from the very beginning, when she showed up, I go, Craig, this is the true test, right? Kyoko is a robot and he has to figure out that she's not one. Like, I was like, that's the test.
00:44:02
Speaker
I thought she was because when we first see her, when she put the food on the table, knocked it over. Yeah. When she's leaving, there's a wide shot of the two of them at the table and Kyoko is walking down the hallway to the elevator.
00:44:15
Speaker
As soon as she gets in the elevator, her arms drop and her head goes down. Like she's deactivated. Oh, I must have totally missed that. I didn't even notice that. Yeah, I was watching it the whole time because I was trying to figure out, are you a machine?
00:44:29
Speaker
I didn't even notice that. That must have been a quick, OK. It was real quick. It's when the door is shutting and then her arms just droop and her head goes down. Interesting. you know, humans don't do that.
00:44:40
Speaker
Yeah. so we see nathan starting to wake up so caleb walks back to the room and he's able well we see nathan can't find his key card but he's drunk so he thinks it's you know so caleb is able to like pretend that he finds it on the floor and give it back to him so now caleb is like convinced that nathan is crazy and like has this god complex that is whatever he's doing to these poor women right because that's i feel like that's what caleb is viewing them as now he absolutely is yeah so after this happens this is another crazy scene is caleb starts to think he's crazy right because now he sees kyoto kyoko is an and you have this scene where he goes into his bathroom and he like cuts himself
00:45:30
Speaker
He takes out a razor blade because he was shaving earlier. He takes the razor out and he cuts himself and opens up his arm to see if he can see circuitry. Yeah. All he sees is a bunch of blood coming out.
00:45:40
Speaker
Because you got to think from his point of view, are his memories real? He doesn't know. Because he says, well, because is this playing into why he was picked in the first place? Because he was an earlier model that he was lit up out into the wild and he was bringing them back so because he has to now experience it's in the wild and he's bringing them back in this controlled experiment.
00:46:01
Speaker
Yeah. So that's what he's thinking. So all that blood comes out. I personally wouldn't have cut my wrist open to figure that out, though. I just think there's another way. We forgot to mention that in the session before all of this happened, before he got drunk and went downhill, where she where she had asked about what would happen to her, Caleb told her he was gonna do this plan because the next day is his last day there.
Caleb's Plan and Ava's Manipulation
00:46:24
Speaker
So they come up with this plan where he says, you know, can you cut the power at 10 o'clock tomorrow? And she says, yeah. And he goes, okay, well, I'm going to re um'm going to steal Nathan's key card and- Reprogram the doors.
00:46:39
Speaker
so that they'll open instead of shut down. Yeah. So. Although, one second. I just want to bring up that conversation. but So when she turns the power off in is' the five questions scene, yeah and she goes, do you have to perform tests for someone to decide whether you should live or die?
00:46:59
Speaker
And then he goes, no. And she goes, well why should I? yeah So at that point, That is a question that you'd have to think about. Because once you created this being, does this being have rights?
00:47:13
Speaker
Because she's right. what i know she's created. I know she's legally Nathan's. But if we're really going to go with this AI, what you're doing is creating a separate life from the creator.
00:47:27
Speaker
Yeah. So does that being have rights? And I guess that's how Caleb was looking at it. You do have rights, in which I'm going to get you out of this prison because you are, in my opinion, a sentient being.
00:47:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's tough. I don't know what I do because he was getting confused with his emotions. Yeah. His emotions kept overriding his intellect, which is always a dangerous thing. Oh, yeah.
00:47:49
Speaker
And so he he didn't know what to do. It's not like he has anybody talk to. No. He has nobody to, Nathan, or Kyoko don't talk. She's only ready when you're ready, and that has nothing to do with talking.
00:48:00
Speaker
Oh yeah, we found out earlier in the movie that he's not allowed to make phone calls out either. So yeah, he has no, he's not in touch with the real world at all right now. Right. So it's really this kind of like Twilight Zone world he's stuck in.
00:48:12
Speaker
Because he doesn't know who's real, who's his friend, and what he's supposed to do when he hits a moment of conflict. Yeah. So it's really, ah he's in a bad spot no matter. And remember, he's only here for a week.
00:48:27
Speaker
This is only a seven day experiment and then he's out of here. Yeah. So it's with but the love thing was kind of fast. I'll just be honest with you. Because he was already in love with about day three.
00:48:38
Speaker
It's true. Yeah. But some guys, you know, they don't think too well when they're in front of a half naked beautiful woman. It's true. So. The next day he is trying to put this plan into action where he's going to get Nathan drunk again.
00:48:54
Speaker
But Nathan did just says he's not drinking anymore, that now he's not a cleanse or whatever. Brown rice and mineral water. So we find out that Nathan because he is kind of suspect of what's been going on, when he ripped up that drawing, what he actually did was put a battery powered camera in the room so that he could catch what was going on during these power cuts.
00:49:21
Speaker
Yep. And even explains that like he, well, this starts because Caleb starts asking him about what's gonna happen to Ava and he sees that Caleb's too emotional, that he's too attached.
00:49:32
Speaker
So he's trying to explain to him what the real test was. So he says, i know about your plan. i know what you were gonna He's like, the test was you, Caleb. He's like, my test was to see if Ava was smart enough to manipulate you into getting her out.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah, because and then Caleb comes to this realization and he's like, wow, he's like, so you programmed her to know everything about me.
00:50:01
Speaker
And he's like, and I wasn't a random pick. He's like, you knew I didn't have family. You knew I didn't have a significant other. And Nathan's like, yeah, basically. By his search engine choices. By his search engine. And then what's even better is Caleb's like, did you design her face based on my porn image
The True Test and Ava's Escape
00:50:16
Speaker
searches? Exactly. And he's basically like, yeah.
00:50:19
Speaker
Yeah, because what that was was a shot at Amazon, Facebook, well, and the whole entire pornography industry. Because that they know exactly what you do every day by your search engine choices and what websites you go to.
00:50:35
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, a lot of people don't seem to care. They only seem to mind it if the government does it, but they don't seem have any problem with private enterprise doing it all day long. In my opinion, that's what he was talking about in that that little scene there.
00:50:47
Speaker
That, yeah, I just, I know everything about you because of all the things, you whatever you do on the internet, I was able to look at and see and then put that into like a profile that you would react to.
00:50:58
Speaker
And then boom, you get Ava. Yeah. Horrible.
00:51:04
Speaker
But he seemed to be most offended that he knew what kind of porn chicks he liked. Yeah, right? Well, I think he comes to the realization that like she was geared, like this whole thing was a trick on him, right? That he was basically there to see if this fake woman could seduce him.
00:51:24
Speaker
Nathan also lets Caleb know, apparently he has cameras in the bathrooms too, because he saw when Caleb cut his arm open with the razor. yeah So that means there's literally no privacy in this entire facility, even on the toilet.
00:51:40
Speaker
He can watch you on the toilet. See, at that point, we're done. Experiments over. I'm like, look, dude, there is something. don't care how much fucking money you I'll walk back home.
00:51:51
Speaker
But we me and you, we're done. Because this is over with. A man has to have some kind of privacy. Yeah, right. Get the fuck out of here.
00:52:00
Speaker
But so like Caleb's all, like or sorry, Nathan's all excited because this means that the test worked and that Ava is actually true, like as close as you can get to human. Yeah.
00:52:11
Speaker
But what he doesn't realize and what Caleb tells him is that he already reprogrammed all the doors. Yeah. The power cut comes and Nathan looks at his like, oh, I guess you remembered your time. And he was like, well, I already, already did it. Yep.
00:52:27
Speaker
And Nathan's like, fuck. And he knocks out Caleb. And he realizes that Ava's out now. And it's like, he doesn't know what she's going to do. Because again, this is a robot. It's way stronger than a human.
00:52:40
Speaker
Like, you how do you kill it, right? Like, the whole point was that he kept them in a in a place of control, right? Yeah, in a room. Because there's ah variable. Like, you don't know how what's going to happen.
00:52:51
Speaker
Right. Oh, and then Kyoko's still out there, too. Yeah. Yeah, we see Kyoko go to Ava, and they have this, like, private conversation. Well, first she doesn't know who it is. She goes like, who are you? Right. And then I think they both figure out that they're AIs.
00:53:08
Speaker
Yeah. And you see Ava whispering something to her, but we don't get, we as the audience have no idea what it is. Although I do think that was interesting. That's the first time she's seen anybody.
00:53:19
Speaker
Yeah. She didn't know there was other models. That's true. You know, so I guess that's kind of interesting to her too, but she did, she was told that what's going to happen is she's going to be replaced.
00:53:30
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess, that you know, so that's how she knew later where to find other, you know, to to replace her body parts. But I thought it was interesting. That's the first time she's ever seen, i guess, her counterpart, anybody who's equal to her.
00:53:42
Speaker
It's true. Yeah. It would have been nice to hear what she was saying to her. know. I want to know. but Well, we'll never know because it was intentionally withheld. So, yeah. So we see Ava approach Nathan in this hallway and she basically starts attacking him and he's able to, ah for what's the weapon he has? He has some, like a, like a- It was like a metal pipe, right? Yeah, metal pipe. He has a metal pipe in his hand that he had also knocked Caleb out with.
00:54:10
Speaker
And he starts like beating at her with it and breaks one of her arms off. But as he's doing this, Kyoko comes up behind him. And let me tell you, this has to be the sharpest knife in the world because the way she just like slides it right into his back.
00:54:23
Speaker
I mean, come on, you have to admit, like that was like, she barely moved. And maybe they're like trying to say that as a robot, she's really strong, but as a human, you would have to like jab that shit in. Like that's just not gonna like just slide in like that, right?
00:54:38
Speaker
ah Well, especially as slow as she was going. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. So he starts like, of course he's in shock because he has no idea. He thought he was God, right? So he has no idea how his machines are now against him.
00:54:55
Speaker
So after he gets stabbed by her, he turns around and he is able to knock half of Kyoko's face off with that same metal pipe. Yep. But because he's distracted by that, we see Ava gets the knife and she, again, the cleanest, easiest stab ever, right in the chest or up through the chest. You know, I don't know. We're right in the front. oh It wasn't his heart.
00:55:16
Speaker
his heart Was it his heart? Yeah, it was right where his heart is. Even more, because that's bone you have to go through. So that's like... But she is a robot, though. I know, but that's the only part that just was like, what? Oh, you're thinking, okay, but if it goes between the ribs.
00:55:29
Speaker
That's what saying. I think she got him in the ribs. but so But that was a long blade, so would have went through the ribs into his heart. Okay. um Yeah. If your heart gets pierced, you're not going to be able to walk another 20 feet.
00:55:42
Speaker
I would have had her just repeatedly stabbing him. Yeah. Viciously. I don't know what the slow motion thing was about. I don't know. yeah I don't know. But you see, like, so Nathan, since they're dying, kind of realizing, like, how fucked he is, basically. Yeah.
00:55:58
Speaker
He's just like, oh, all right. During this, Ava also goes and locks Caleb in Nathan's room, which again proves that none of this- Well, it wasn't necessarily- Remember, she says, wait for me.
00:56:12
Speaker
That's right. She did this before, but the first time she did is because she wanted to put on a nice little pretty dress for him. Yeah. So that was leading him to believe that he could trust her. Yeah. So he goes in the room and wait. It was the room he was knocked out in.
00:56:25
Speaker
Yeah. And she said, just wait here for me. And door shuts. We don't know it's locked. Yeah. We didn't know that. But that but that she just says, wait for me. The door shuts and it locks, and we don't know that happened yet. You're right, yeah. So we find out a little bit that it's locked, in and we realize now that, yeah, Nathan was 100% right. This wasn't that she loved him and wanted him to help her escape.
00:56:45
Speaker
This was she knew how to manipulate a man into getting her out. Like, that's exactly what it was. Because she's a machine. Yeah. She's incapable of loving. All she's capable of doing is evolving and using variables to get to what she wants to.
00:57:00
Speaker
Exactly. But love has nothing to do with it. yeah That's the difference. That's the problem with that. She can pretend all day that she loves you. I'm sure when ah Nathan was banging Kyoko, she was screaming like a banshee for him. But that doesn't mean she really felt anything.
00:57:15
Speaker
It's because he programmed her to do that. Exactly. You see what I'm saying? So that that's what my man Caleb was not seeing, that everything that Ava was doing was manipulation. Yeah, exactly.
00:57:27
Speaker
Because she's supposed to do that. So then we get this scene where we we watch Ava go into the, like basically the parts closet and she builds herself back and like takes the skin and she makes herself look human.
00:57:42
Speaker
Puts on a wig, puts on clothes. And yeah, this is where we see that she's actually locked him in because we see her walk out right past him and he's banging on the door trying to get out.
00:57:53
Speaker
And she just ignores him and gets in the elevator. Now remember, the other guy who could let him out is dead. Is dead. So he's stuck there. Kyoko is, I guess, dead too because she hasn't moved since her jaw got knocked the fuck off.
00:58:06
Speaker
Yep. So he's banging on the glass. that I guess it's probably gorilla glass. And he can't get through there. And there's nobody else alive in this facility. Nope. Which is like 100 miles away from civilization. So this goes back to what I was saying earlier that I can now...
00:58:19
Speaker
reference, how does he get food and groceries delivered, right? Is there someone that comes every so often that would find Caleb and be able to let him out? Like you'd have to think someone would be delivering or you don't think that's the case.
00:58:32
Speaker
In my mind, I was thinking it was that helicopter guy. it's not because if the helicopter guy was going there regularly then when he picks up ava on the way out how did she get there right like wouldn't there be questions of him picking up this random woman that never got dropped off yeah because never brought her because that's i'm saying i don't think it was the same guy doing these helicopters i think they just call a company and say hey a pickup or a drop off right yeah so i don't think it was a regular thing because i actually said the same thing to craig and that's what we were talking about because wouldn't he be suspect that Ava's getting on and not Caleb?
00:59:07
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think they just called the company and said, hey, have a helicopter to pick up a person at this time. Oh, so you think there would have been someone who eventually would find Caleb's body? I mean, I'm wondering, right? Because that's what I'm saying is like, how does he get food and stuff there?
00:59:21
Speaker
Does he have someone come regularly that brings deliveries, whether it's once every couple of weeks, once a month, that would eventually be like, oh, this is weird. Like, why is no one home? I was thinking something different. I was like, let's say they escaped.
00:59:34
Speaker
Nathan's still alive, right? And the two of them escaped. what Where is he going to go with her? What is the plan? Yeah. Because Nathan owns that thing.
00:59:45
Speaker
Yeah. So what if you just stole, I'm assuming she cost millions of dollars. Yeah, right. You just stole something that's like $5, $10 million dollars from him. Yeah. What are you going to do? You're going to go out there and go little house in the prairie and raise kids and all that?
01:00:00
Speaker
No. No, it's all a fantasy you're living, dude. You're done. Yeah. You just stole. What you did was no different than me going into a Mercedes dealer and stealing a Mercedes. No different.
01:00:11
Speaker
So I didn't understand his plan. Unless they were going to lock him up or kill him or something like that. Because all he did all all he has to do is call the police and say, this person, are he can either say it's a human or he can say it's a robot. But either way, it's kidnapping or it's theft.
01:00:26
Speaker
One or the other. So either way, you're going to jail. So I don't know. this is a smart guy. But again, what was he doing? He let his emotions, which is what Nathan said, yeah your emotions are clouding your intellect.
01:00:37
Speaker
That is what's wrong with you. but see and that's the variable that nathan didn't realize right the whole the whole test was that she would emotionally manipulate him into letting her out what he didn't realize was how far that would take caleb right now yeah because dudes will do some crazy stuff for love man yeah they will i mean wars have been fought over y'all hu But yeah, so the movie ends with her basically integrating into human society.
01:01:06
Speaker
Kayla asked her, if you got it, what would you do? And she said she would just love to go to an intersection and watch people walk by. Yeah. I mean, I guess big dreams start with little dreams. Yeah, right. There you go.
01:01:17
Speaker
It's interesting, though, because now I would love to see a sequel to see what she does. That's what I'm saying. They leave it very open-ended, right? So it's just, it's very interesting because you're like, well, all right.
01:01:30
Speaker
A lot of buildup and we don't know what's going to happen. Oh, okay. so So, so what did you, did you like the ending or you didn't? No, did like the ending. I liked it. It was ambiguous. Yeah. And I liked this movie too, because like movies that are small cast and contained. Right. Me too. I like the small cast. Yeah. So it's, it's a great, this was a really good story about human emotion. Right. Like we were saying, like you see how someone can be manipulated by their own,
01:01:59
Speaker
Likes and interests. Yeah. Right. And it shows you too. I think how even in relationships. People do that. Like real people are doing that to each other. You know. They figure out ways to emotionally manipulate. And control people.
01:02:09
Speaker
Right. And that's. That's what this movie is showing to me. Is that. Is the test. Like I said. with The test was that she would. Convince Caleb. That. She loved him or whatever. And to help her escape.
01:02:22
Speaker
And like I said. Nathan didn't realize that. Caleb would actually go to those extremes. And do it. Yeah, and and and what I thought was interesting is that I guess through the whole week that she was there, she was running different scenarios in her head yeah of how to manipulate Caleb the whole time.
01:02:43
Speaker
Each day, she was trying to figure out what I have to do, what I have to say. Even from the first time when Caleb's talking about his parents dying in the car accident accident, her face all of a sudden softens up and empathizes with her. Yeah.
01:02:57
Speaker
All fake. She did that to get the reaction to see if your action would be what she was expecting it to be. yeah you know It's all manipulation. Well, yeah, because she also speaks at one point where she says she can see when he's lying, right? Yeah, yeah. She can see micro adjustments in his face that that show that he's lying. And why is that? Because Nathan but had, ah according to this movie, hacked into, I guess, cell phones around the world and recorded audio and visual or audio and video pictures of people.
01:03:29
Speaker
So there was he was covering every kind of scenario the human face can make. And from that, she could use that to tell people are lying to her not, like your facial tics, your gestures, whatever.
01:03:40
Speaker
She doesn't know what you're lying about. And so I was like, dude, you got so played by this woman. I remember this thing, really. it's just And then the fact that she's beautiful, had she been ugly, she wouldn't have got nothing from Yeah, right?
01:03:54
Speaker
I promise you. The beauty was the bait. But if that woman would have been, like you said earlier, why are they always pretty? Well, if she would have been 500 pounds with zits all over her face, he wouldn't have trusted nothing she said.
01:04:05
Speaker
It was the beauty that was the bait. The bonding is what trapped him. Just like that. So I felt kind of bad for him. And then he's stuck in that room, which will probably die of starvation, unless, what you say, there's some person who shows up for food.
01:04:20
Speaker
I don't know. so And then you got to worry about the fact that if he doesn't die in that room, is he going to be blamed for killing Nathan? Yeah. What are you going to say? The robots did it?
01:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, right. but You know? So I really did. Like I said, I said the beginning, in the beginning of this movie, I wasn't sure if I wasn't going to like it because it was just a lot of, I thought what this was going to end up being was the two of them falling in love with each other and we could see the beauty of humanity.
01:04:50
Speaker
and And i was like, yeah, that might be a Gianna thing, but that's not a me thing. And so, but as we're getting there, I'm noticing that I'm starting to see what this really is about. Is this really about manipulation?
01:05:01
Speaker
But it's about manipulation from Nathan and Ava towards Caleb. And Caleb doesn't realize he's being played by both of them. Yeah. that's what was That's what really hooked me for this thing. And the fact that Alex Garland seems to like getting into the darker recesses of humanity.
01:05:18
Speaker
Yeah. He doesn't seem to really want to show how beautiful mankind is. He wants to show all the flaws and what he thinks at the core humanity's problem is. That they're narcissistic and selfish and they give in to their I guess, basic primal feelings about things.
01:05:37
Speaker
And if you really want to evolve above that, you can't give into that. But a lot of people do. They give into their own selfish needs or desires and fuck everybody else.
01:05:47
Speaker
They don't care whether it hurts anybody else. yeah So I kind of liked it. I didn't know I was really going to be into him as much as I do. But so far, i mean, I haven't seen everything he's done, but I like the things we've done, we've reviewed. I liked Annihilation. i don't think you really liked it that much.
01:06:01
Speaker
No, that wasn't really my favorite. But I love Sunshine and I like this. And I don't know, we might do devs. It's up to you. Yeah, I think so. I think I'm going to check it out when I have some time. I've never seen the beach. He wrote that.
01:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's not sci-fi though. I saw it years ago. That's Leonardo DiCaprio, right? Yeah. Oh, and I saw it 28 Days Later and I like that. I know you didn't see that, but I like that. one Yeah, I don't think I've seen 28 Days Later.
01:06:25
Speaker
Yeah, that was ah that was also Danny Boyle directed that. It came out in 2007. It was a different kind of zombie. It was before all the zombie craze, before Walking Dead came out. But these zombies, the whole thing is set in London.
01:06:37
Speaker
And what's name? Cillian Murphy? that you say his first name? Yeah, he's like the star of it. And the the the plague breaks out there. And it's just a different kind of zombie film. That's what I noticed about right the bat, which is why I liked it.
01:06:50
Speaker
But I just realized that him and Danny Boyle did that together. Alex wrote it, Danny Boyle directed it. And I just liked the way he writes. I think he's a really good writer and he doesn't do a lot of cliche bullshit. But when I was reading the reviews of this film,
01:07:03
Speaker
They wanted more plot, and that's not what this film's really about. It's more of a character study. And they wanted that traditional journey that they can you know have a checklist to check off.
01:07:14
Speaker
Well, we hit that point, we hit that point, so now I can figure out where the story's going. And that's not what this story's about. It's not about that at all. it's It's examining human nature, how dark it can get and what it needs to do not to fall into the darkness.
01:07:29
Speaker
And I guess a lot of the sci-fi heads don't like that. They felt the same way about his Annihilation movie because Annihilation was more about the imagery than actually talking about the scientific principles of it.
01:07:41
Speaker
Yeah. And I know that wasn't why you didn't like it, but that's why a lot of the science fiction people did not like Sunshine, on the other hand, a lot of people like that movie, both hard science fiction fans and non-science fiction and fans. They just like that that story.
01:07:54
Speaker
But I like this. I like the way he writes. I'm looking forward to some of the other stuff he's going to do. I'm glad we watched this. I just didn't know if you were going to like it. But what I've noticed about you, you like nuanced science fiction.
01:08:06
Speaker
that's what It took me a while to figure this out. Mm-hmm. But that's really what it is. It's not that you hate science fiction. You just don't like generic science fiction, like Star Trek or Star Wars, that kind of shit.
01:08:17
Speaker
Yeah. But if it's nuanced and has subtlety to it, you're all about it. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, like, this movie specifically was because I tend to enjoy character-driven movies more. Yeah. Well, Sunshine was, too. Yeah, i was to say, it didn't matter that the plot was, like, not huge in this one.
01:08:36
Speaker
so Yeah, i didn't it didn't bother me about the plot either. I was reading that that a lot of people didn't like the fact there's really not a plot, or at least it's not you can't figure out the plot halfway through the movie. But I didn't care because but i don't care that the dots don't connect.
01:08:50
Speaker
It's just as long as the journey's good. That's all I was really trying to figure out. And that's like we talked about on Yellowjackets. Like there was a lot of those episodes that there was like not a lot of plot at all. But it was still an hour that kept you totally sucked in.
Character Study vs. Traditional Storytelling
01:09:04
Speaker
And you were like figuring out these characters. Right. So that's that's more of what I enjoy is like when you get deep into character study. And I've noticed that a lot of people, particularly Americans, they don't like character study.
01:09:16
Speaker
They want the traditional hero journey, checklist storytelling. It's another reason why a lot of people don't like nonlinear storytelling. That drives a lot of Americans up the fucking wall. I liked it.
01:09:27
Speaker
Because when I first started seeing it, was in Japanese films. And I never knew this was a thing. Then Quentin Tarantino took it and he started doing it and then Americans started getting more exposed to it. i mean, the general population, not critics.
01:09:39
Speaker
But I've always liked nonlinear storytelling because I can't really predict how the story's going to end. yeah And that's the whole point of it. It's misdirection. And a lot of people don't like that because like cause the first thing you'll read in reviews is, why can't you just tell the story from A to Z?
01:09:53
Speaker
Why do you to do all this jumping around? That's part of the art form too. Yeah, but- It's not just telling a regular traditional story. Go ahead. I mean, a lot of people like mindless entertainment, right?
01:10:04
Speaker
They do. They want to be spoon-fed a fucking Marvel movie, right? Where it's just, oh, action, like linear plot. Like, they just kind of want that type of movie.
Artistic Vision in Filmmaking
01:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, because it's easy to understand and every stone is turned so they can figure out every little minutia of the story.
01:10:23
Speaker
And I don't need all that. I just need to hit... just certain points and certain things I'm looking for, but I don't have a checklist when I watch a movie. And a lot of people do have a checklist.
01:10:34
Speaker
And I noticed with Alice Garland, he's kind of difficult in Hollywood because he does not like to give in on his artistic integrity. yeah And when he did Annihilation, he had in his contract that he gets final edits.
01:10:47
Speaker
And so that pissed off the producers because they wanted to change the ending of the film. And I think they want to change other things, too. So that's why it didn't premiere theaters here in America. They put it to Netflix because they knew it was going to bomb in the theaters.
01:11:00
Speaker
Yeah. But because of that, he went to TV. And that's how you got Devs, the TV show. He doesn't want to be told what to do in his movie making, even though he's using other people's money. and so So that really speaks to him because he's got his own artistic vision and he wants it done the way he wants it seen in his head.
01:11:17
Speaker
He doesn't care how a producer sees it and he sure as hell doesn't care how most of America sees it. He sees it the way he sees it and that's the story he wants to tell. yeah And I actually like that better. i like I don't want you to tell a story that you think I like. I want you to tell the story that you want to get me to like.
01:11:34
Speaker
That's what I'm looking for. And a lot of people want the story that that they want artists to create stories custom made for them. And I'm not looking for that. I'm looking for an artist's vision from him that he's supposed to convince me to like. yeah And I prefer it just that way. That's the way it always used to be until I guess the Marvel age.
Sub-genres and Cult Classics
01:11:54
Speaker
I guess because that's that's about as cookie cutter as you can get. They're all pretty much the same. You're just replacing the costume. Yeah. Essentially. But no like I said, i wasn't sure going to like it, but I have noticed with you, you really do like the character study and the nuance stuff. You like the little subtleties and stuff like that. Yeah, but they do.
01:12:14
Speaker
But I didn't know that going in because when we first started doing this show, just you you really don't like science fiction. But it's because you keep getting exposed to the populous science fiction, the one that everybody eats. you know't i guess you didn't even know there was like sub-genres of science fiction.
01:12:30
Speaker
Because I guess you don't, because they generally don't do well in the theaters. yeah So I think you were more of a theater watcher than actually renting movies when you were younger, right? Yeah. So you wouldn't even have known about it, but ah usually these guys, these kinds of movies are cult classic kind of things.
01:12:46
Speaker
Even sunshine, which did, did okay. it It wasn't like star Wars level or star Trek level, but it's a cult classic movie to a lot of people. I'm looking forward to devs. That's what you want to do. I'm looking at IMDb now. It says it's eight episodes and it did come out during the pandemic 2020.
01:13:03
Speaker
So I don't know what these other thing men, the civil war is. don't know what that is, but I, and I think that devs is just a mini series. So I don't think there's any more past this eight episodes that's ever coming out. Yeah.
01:13:13
Speaker
Cause he did say that he doesn't like doing sequels. That's why you won't get annihilation two or X machina two or any, at least not by him. If someone else does it, he's fine, but he ain't going to do it. Interesting.
01:13:25
Speaker
But this was good. I'm glad you liked it. Yeah. I really liked it. Like I said, I'm never sure with you because your taste changes is like the wind.
01:13:35
Speaker
All right, y'all, this is the end of the episode. Appreciate all of y'all listening to the show. Until next time, goddammit.