Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Sunday on the Pod with... Casey Flo
Speaker: and Rosa welcome to Sunday on the pod Sunday on the pod is a podcast all about musical theater however this podcast isn't just for performers but it's for anyone who loves musical theater each episode we cover musicals that some of you may love some of you might hate or maybe you've never heard of them before either way we'll be singing and dancing about them
Speaker: If you didn't already know, we pick a musical and discuss its plot, the show's creators dissecting specific songs lyrically, musically, delving into any juicy gossip in our brand new segment called Stage Door Secrets, and my personal favourite, putting on our very own casting director hat and choosing a fantasy cast with another brand new segment, the Mega Mix Casting.
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Speaker: So this episode is the second part to last month's episode and is of course Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: As previously mentioned, we know that any Sondheim musical is an absolute beast, with Sweeney Todd being one of the biggest.
Speaker: So in order for us to do Sweeney its proper justice, we decided to split it into two parts.
Speaker: As mentioned last episode, this two part structure is going to differ to our usual shenanigans.
Speaker: So here is a bit on what we will be looking at this episode.
Speaker: Last time we looked at the production as a whole, its history and origins and past productions with its creators and cast as well.
Speaker: This episode, we are doing an absolute deep dive on the music in Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: We will be discussing music and lyrics and touching on the themes and imagery within Sweeney to give this musical the star treatment it deserves.
Speaker: Alright, so as Casey said, very exciting.
Speaker: We've got the music this week, so we'll be looking at a range of songs from Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: Starting with the Ballad of Sweeney Todd, we'll be looking at a Little Priest.
Speaker: Then we'll be looking at everyone's favourite, Joanna.
Speaker: And finishing up with By the Sea, alongside perhaps some honourable mentions.
Speaker: So without further ado, let's get into the music of Stephen Sondheim's Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: Sweeney Todd
Speaker: So I guess the best place to begin is the first song, which is the Ballad of Sweeney Todd, which is probably one of the best songs in the whole musical.
Speaker: And if you haven't heard it, please stop this podcast right now and go listen to it because it is so...
Speaker: brilliant it's like a musical theatre kid's dream it's so dramatic and so like overly musical theatre in like the best way I absolutely love it um so yeah so I guess I'm gonna begin at the beginning um
Speaker: What I love about this kind of opening of the opening song is this really dramatic like organ line that's like, like it's so dramatic.
Speaker: And it almost kind of sounds like it almost kind of sounds something like out of like Dracula almost.
Speaker: And that first chord kind of establishes basically the theme of the whole musical, which is like this like minor, super, super dissonant chords.
Speaker: which kind of sound like the chords are trying to resolve themselves.
Speaker: Like there are times where these organ chords kind of descend and it sounds like they're trying to go somewhere that sounds pretty, but then it gets clashed with this horrible dissonant chord.
Speaker: And that kind of goes on for probably about 30 seconds.
Speaker: It's like a really big opening, really kind of triumphant.
Speaker: Do you know at the beginning...
Speaker: always reminds me of is i'm sure classical music girlies are going to come for me because i don't know the name but you know that like classic strack the thing where it's like
Speaker: I don't know what that's probably like a very famous bit of classical music but I don't know that like always plays like in like cartoons when it like shows like a haunted house that is literally what this is and it sets up the whole plot of Sweeney Todd beautifully it's basically telling the audience like this is not going to be a comedy this is not going to be like you know I don't know carousel this is something really different
Speaker: And my favourite bit, because every single time I'm like, 34 seconds in, it basically interrupts this like organ bit with like the loudest screech ever.
Speaker: It's like, like it's horrible.
Speaker: And every time I'm like, God, what is that?
Speaker: And it almost sounds kind of like...
Speaker: I think I think what it's trying to imitate is almost like an industrial factory whistle that kind of sound but it also kind of sounds like a scream it kind of sounds a bit like a scream like I always thought I was like is that a scream is that a whistle and as well like a boat when obviously because Sweeney's uh coming off the boat it also gives that like you're coming into harbour it's like something's happening someone's arrived someone's back in London kind of thing yeah
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And it's interesting because underneath that like, sound, you hear like the organ almost sounds like someone's like sat on it.
Speaker: Like there's like a really dull, it sounds like sweet husband, like oops, and like leaned on like the organ, like by mistake, which I kind of love because
Speaker: straight away it's like it's taking it's taking kind of musical form it's taking like the traditional musical theater opening song and just basically chucking out the window and being like this is Sweeney Todd bitch I don't know if I can say that this is Sweeney Todd and we're gonna do whatever we like um if I can say that on the pod I love the idea of Sweeney Todd pulling up in a car and it's like it's Britney bitch playing and he's like it's
Speaker: I love when musicals have like really somber openings because it just really like, I just picture people who don't go to watch musicals sat in the audience and then them being like, oh, it's different, you know, it's,
Speaker: Tits and teeth.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: There's something dark and twisted about this.
Speaker: So yeah, I love that kind of opening part.
Speaker: And then there's kind of like, after that loud screech, there's almost kind of like a moment of suspense.
Speaker: And then straight away, we're transported into that opening motif, which...
Speaker: which is like, da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da, like that classic motif that you hear underneath the whole piece, basically.
Speaker: And you first hear it on the strings, and it's marked PP, which is piano, piano-piano, which is basically very, very quiet.
Speaker: And it's this repeated four-bar kind of ostinato.
Speaker: Ostinato is basically a fancy word for like a short, melodic phrase that you hear over and over.
Speaker: And it's basically, it centres around...
Speaker: not very many notes.
Speaker: It's G sharp, A, G sharp, C sharp, and then it basically goes back on those four notes with like the odd C sharp thrown in there, which for musos out there, you'll probably get.
Speaker: People at home who are like, don't really know what you're saying.
Speaker: Basically, there's not very many notes that he uses in that opening motif.
Speaker: But it's the more I talk about the key and the piece of
Speaker: It will get interesting.
Speaker: You'll be on the edge of your seat.
Speaker: You'll be like, oh my God.
Speaker: So this four bar or sonato is really, really important because it, again, it sets that super unsettling tone on
Speaker: of Sweeney Todd and like where this piece is going and it has lots of kind of sporadic moments where like it jumps it almost sounds like it's kind of jumping around not really kind of having like a sense of pitch or a kind of sense of rhythm and it also gives a really good sense of pace and urgency to this opening number because it's there for basically the whole piece and
Speaker: So, and it's kind, I like to think from like an actor's perspective, it kind of sets out the pace of like a city, kind of like London town, where you're not going to get this like, you're going to get like this, like, you know, dirty, unsettling tone, which is very kind of, it feels like it really sets a very truthful tone of what a city can feel like in a very dark period, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and there's lots of, like, things, not just in the Ballad of Sweeney Todd, but, like, throughout Sweeney Todd, where they use, like, almost music and arrangements as, like, a soundscape for the city.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, like, especially one of the things, I think it's in the, maybe it's in the prelude, I think, but it appears kind of throughout, is, like, the two-tone of, like...
Speaker: which is obviously like what ambulances sound like.
Speaker: That's the two-tone of an ambulance, which is like the nina, nina, or like a fire engine.
Speaker: And what's really interesting about that is like those two tones is when it's used musically, even if there's nothing to do with like someone being saved or like an ambulance or someone being unwell, we immediately associate that with like danger or with scariness or like something's not right, something's wrong, or there's an emergency or there's like,
Speaker: something that is like pressing that we need to be engaged with so like he uses that two tone that like did I'm not sure what the muses out there you'll probably know what the interval is on that I'm not so sure but immediately when you hear that even in the prelude or kind of peppered throughout it's that soundscape of like oh something's not quite right and I think we're in danger here yeah subconsciously which I think is really really cool yeah
Speaker: It's so, this piece is just so sexy and it's like, it is peppered with so many things that you're like, that is genius.
Speaker: I think something that I always talk about when it comes to music is the key.
Speaker: So the key that it's in is F sharp minor, which in itself is quite an unusual key to pick.
Speaker: But what is fascinating is that the piece itself actually doesn't settle on F sharp a lot of the time.
Speaker: It settles a lot on G sharp, which in relation to F sharp is really dissonant because it's such a close, it's such a close interval.
Speaker: And it again adds that like really horrible, like unsettling kind of sound to the piece.
Speaker: And it's all, again, as you said, it's establishing this like story that's clashing, it's jarring.
Speaker: And we see, we see later that like Sondheim really uses this kind of, this very chromatic, um,
Speaker: kind of way of writing his music, which is just very like clashy dissonant.
Speaker: Um, and that G sharp in particular, this is where it gets interesting.
Speaker: So, you know, that, that ostinato that I talked about, that four bar ostinato, um,
Speaker: it settles a lot on G sharp.
Speaker: So it goes from, it literally starts on G sharp and one of like the highest notes it reaches is another G sharp.
Speaker: So again, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but basically what I'm saying is that he likes to kind of mess around with the audience's ear.
Speaker: And even though he's chosen an F sharp key, he isn't really sticking to it.
Speaker: So again, he's kind of chucking the rule out the door.
Speaker: The other really fascinating thing, and this is when I saw it, I was like, oh my God, because I had no idea.
Speaker: So the time signature is in 6-8, which is such an unusual time signature.
Speaker: And for muses out there, you'd be like, I know what that means.
Speaker: If you're not a muso, do not panic, because even I had to rub myself and be like, what is this?
Speaker: So 6a is compound timing, which basically means that instead of having even beats, like you might have like three, four, which is three even beats in a bar, this is one and a half beats.
Speaker: So six, eight basically means that you have two one and a half beats in a bar, if that makes sense, which I know sounds a bit like complicated.
Speaker: If you break that down, you basically have six quavers in a bar.
Speaker: And he uses six quavers in four bars to make this four bar ostinato.
Speaker: And the strongest beat in this kind of six, in this six, eight timing is,
Speaker: is the fourth beat of the bar.
Speaker: And he uses G sharp on all these, on all the fourth beats, like the really strong parts, he uses that G sharp.
Speaker: So it really, really kind of sings out.
Speaker: And I have a feeling that, because I know the strings do the ostinato, but I have a feeling that he uses...
Speaker: brass instruments.
Speaker: I don't know whether it's trombones or trumpets and these really play on the important beats.
Speaker: You know it's like da da da that bit.
Speaker: That is a it's like he's disassociating from the strings and bringing it into a brass section so you really really really hear it and it almost sounds a bit like a push rhythm.
Speaker: So again it's making you feel like you can't sit you have to be pushed along with the music.
Speaker: The music is pushing you rather than you sitting back as an audience member.
Speaker: So again, it's like that added layer of discomfort.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: For me, as a muso, I'm like, I love this.
Speaker: I just love it because it's so fascinating.
Speaker: And then what you were saying about, like, I'm not as technical as you when it comes to music, but what you were saying about, like, it starting on, like, the G sharp and then the highest note they're going to is the G sharp.
Speaker: Like, and you saying that kind of, like...
Speaker: is going out of the rule book and it's so interesting as well because that is almost giving it's almost like kind of subconsciously saying to the audience like this is might be a story that you're familiar with but you've never seen this retelling before yeah and this is the we're not playing within the rules of the traditional Sweeney Todd that you've seen we're entering a new sphere and a new retelling a new perspective on this and
Speaker: kind of prep yourselves for things you're gonna be unsure of yeah yeah exactly I guess I think that though I think that's why Sondheim is such an amazing writer because he does that in so many of his other musicals as well like you kind of think you know what you're getting and then suddenly he just like chucks the rule out of the door and you're like I love this it's just it's so unpredictable which is why I think when you first hear
Speaker: say Sweeney Todd for the first time, you are like, I just don't know where this music is going to go.
Speaker: Which is really refreshing, I think, for a musical, especially when a lot of musical theatre, you can kind of guess where the music is going to go.
Speaker: You're like, I know it's going to end on kind of like a pleasant note.
Speaker: And yeah, so that's kind of like, that's me getting super duper technical.
Speaker: But to pull it all back, the first kind of opening kind of chorus line we hear is
Speaker: They sing the lyrics, Attend the Tale of Sweeney Todd, which is basically like, you know, like a classic narrator being like, let's bring you into the world of the story.
Speaker: And again, they introduce a new motif, which they repeat over and over, which is attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: And they basically use that motif with different lyrics.
Speaker: And it's adding this sense of repetition.
Speaker: I think repetition in this music is really, really important because he uses all these different motifs to basically,
Speaker: represent this kind of relentlessness of the world that they're living in and that regardless of whether people are wealthy, poor, happy, unhappy, they still live within this London industrial like city that is just, it just won't give.
Speaker: Like, and you see that in kind of the brutality that a lot of the characters
Speaker: have had had in their life or have had later in the story, that it's just like, no matter who you are, you're going to get swept up in this.
Speaker: And I also think that kind of repetition is really, is a really gorgeous imagery of kind of like an industrial machine.
Speaker: where it's like, you know, an industrial machine where it goes round and round.
Speaker: It's kind of, again, it's mirroring that kind of, that imagery.
Speaker: It comes right back to the idea of Sweeney Todd in itself.
Speaker: And like that thing that we were talking about in part one, where for Sondheim, he saw it as like, oh, this is just one man's revenge story.
Speaker: and Harold Prince, who obviously produced it and did such an amazing job, he said, no, this is a metaphor for the industrial machine, the industrial revolution, and how the kind of working class were exploited and this factory, this idea that London turns out Sweeney Todd's and...
Speaker: kind of capitalism turns out Sweeney Todd's the factory has made him who he is and the factory has made this tale of revenge it's all this so yeah you're completely right it goes back to like this machine like kind of energy of product and consumerism and and I think as well like as you were saying is it like comes back around
Speaker: That's what we'll eventually get into with Sweeney Todd, where he has been spit out by this machine where people have exploited him.
Speaker: And he in turn exploits other people.
Speaker: He kills them and he feeds it right back down.
Speaker: It's a cycle.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: That's what he's doing.
Speaker: He's completing a cycle.
Speaker: It's like production, product, consumer.
Speaker: And that's all he's doing is delivering back to these people who have exploited these workers, who have exploited the people of London.
Speaker: He's giving...
Speaker: it right back to them he's serving it up on a plate literally yeah and he's making them eat it kind of thing it's just yeah it's so clever yeah um
Speaker: Yeah, so that opening line is basically the whole time after this, it's all being underscored by the strings and the trumpets repeating that first motif that we talked about, that four bar motif.
Speaker: And you do hear like other solo voices entering, which kind of like introduces the other people in London town.
Speaker: Classic.
Speaker: It's kind of like in Les Mis, you know, that opening song with the like, we're in London.
Speaker: And it kind of like establishes like kind of like the bigger chorus within the story.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then slowly kind of other instruments also start to trickle in.
Speaker: Again, the whole thing is kind of staying fairly quiet.
Speaker: There's nothing really like super, super loud, but you do feel that there's this kind of unearthly sense that it's building to something.
Speaker: and then suddenly the chorus jumps in F F which is super super loud and they sing swing your razor wide Sweeney hold it to the sky which is like super loud it's a great bit again so empty I love it and you hear loads of harmonies loads of different voices and it's a really stark contrast contrast to how we opened which felt very like quiet and
Speaker: This is where it gets interesting.
Speaker: Just you wait.
Speaker: I was shook when I read this.
Speaker: I was like, I can't believe this.
Speaker: So that, that like swing your razor wide.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Just, just remember that my, my terribly, my terribly sung version of it.
Speaker: This is so closely connected to a very, very famous Gregorian chant called Dies Irae.
Speaker: Which I had no idea about until I read about it.
Speaker: And the Gregorian chant is called the Mass of the Dead.
Speaker: And basically it's all part of this Latin Requiem Mass that translates to Day of the Dead or the Day of Wrath.
Speaker: And the whole text and chant basically describes the day of judgment and then the wrath of God, which is so fascinating because obviously this all links back to the fact that, you know, in the previous episode, you talked about the Industrial Revolution, but then how Sondheim was like, no, I think it's about one man kind of wanting to get his kind of his day of wrath, his like,
Speaker: his day of judgment.
Speaker: This is why this is so fascinating because he uses this, he uses this chant in a way that it basically links Sweeney to this chant where that's basically what Sweeney is doing, right?
Speaker: He wants justice for what's happened to him.
Speaker: And I had no idea, but this Dearest Iray chant has been used in so many other musical scores that,
Speaker: So it's been used in The Exorcist.
Speaker: It's been used in Star Wars.
Speaker: It was used in Lion King when Scar ordered Simba to be killed.
Speaker: It was used in Rent.
Speaker: It was used in La Vie Bohème, which I had no idea about, which I kind of wish I did know about when we were doing it.
Speaker: So it's a really... Is that the start?
Speaker: Is that the dearly beloved?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: It's used in that bit.
Speaker: Dearly beloved.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And that's literally, and literally the, the, the chant starts like, and it kind of sounds a bit like, attend the tale of Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: It kind of sounds like that as well.
Speaker: And I was like, I listened to it.
Speaker: I was like, oh my God, this can't be happening.
Speaker: I love stuff like that, where it's just like, you know, that meme of the Spider-Men where they're like, where they're pointing at each other.
Speaker: This is really what this reminded me of.
Speaker: I was like, oh my God, it's all been connected.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: I love it when writers use stuff from like years ago that,
Speaker: to people's ears they connect it with something but then when it's used in a different context they're like why does this really remind me of something else and it's it's so so interesting because obviously sweetie todd is so closely connected to themes of death themes of judgment themes of like wrath that i just think it's so beautifully used in this opening number i think like
Speaker: the use of something like that, something so like regal and like historical, it gives like an almost like Shakespearean entrance to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like, not just, not just, but like, this isn't just a play about like lovers or this isn't just a play about revenge.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: this is a Shakespearean like narrative and story and power and deceit.
Speaker: Like, I think it also introduces like, we're playing, we're in a big ball game here.
Speaker: We're, we're playing with love.
Speaker: We're playing with, we're playing with revenge.
Speaker: Like these are some big themes.
Speaker: Like this is not a gentleman.
Speaker: Didn't they say that though?
Speaker: Didn't we talk about that in the last episode though?
Speaker: That because he, Sondheim went to go see it at Stratford East and it was, the original play was by Christopher Bond, I think.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: And didn't he say, yeah, didn't he say something along the lines of like, this feels like a Shakespearean story or something?
Speaker: He said it feels like a Shakespearean tragedy.
Speaker: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So maybe that's why he was like, I need to write something that's bloody epic so it suits...
Speaker: I think he like recognized almost like Machiavellian like themes within it and like that Sweeney is this kind of almost like Macbeth.
Speaker: Yeah, it is.
Speaker: It very much is.
Speaker: Like tortured.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think we talked about as well.
Speaker: Love it almost like being this puller of strings as Lady Macbeth.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: definitely and in that way I think like the people of London especially in this song when they're like attend the tale of Sweeney Todd and they're almost giving like a eulogy at his funeral and they're they're kind of for they're almost like giving a eulogy and foreshadowing what's about to happen but which is very Shakespeare it's very Shakespeare very Shakespeare but they act like a Greek chorus almost yeah two houses both alike and you're like yeah yeah yeah we get it
Speaker: I was just going to say, yeah, it's very Shakespearean in the way of, like, Mrs. Lovett is very Lady Macbeth, I think, especially towards the end.
Speaker: And it is very, like, tortured artiste.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You can just imagine, like, I always think that you can just imagine, like, Sweeney borrowing away in his room writing poetry that no one cares about.
Speaker: Like, that's the vibe that I get from him.
Speaker: Yeah, especially when he has a song like, these are my friends.
Speaker: You're like, ugh.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I also kind of thought, how many times has he practiced that by himself?
Speaker: Just like with his knives, just like seeing that song, I'm like, okay.
Speaker: I mean, to be fair, I do love that song, but it's just funny to think that he probably has signed that before.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So yeah, so that kind of, that sexy kind of motif, that dies irae, that's kind of used again in like the second verse to quite a simple melody line, swing your razor wide.
Speaker: And then we kind of go into a bridge section, which intensifies the music even further.
Speaker: which is the bit where all the chorus is singing like Incaspicuous, sweetie was quick and quiet and clean he was, I love that bit because the rhythm is like all over the place, super super fast, super kind of like all yeah it's just it's it's all very it's it's almost like a pitter-patter type kind of like singing and the melody this is where the melody is all in unison so there's no there's no kind of harmony it's all together
Speaker: And then suddenly it descends into chaos when they start singing Sweeney.
Speaker: It's actually a really funny bit.
Speaker: I actually had to do a gala once where we had to sing this song.
Speaker: And in rehearsals, it is so hilarious because if you get the note wrong, it sounds so crap because everyone's like, Sweeney, Sweeney.
Speaker: And then you've got like, then you've got like the sopranos being like, Sweeney.
Speaker: Like right at the top and you're like, it's so intense.
Speaker: It's such an intense plot.
Speaker: I think a lot of Sondheim's works are like that because when we did company at university, you know, the... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And when they all kind of go... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: We got that wrong so many times and it sounded atrocious.
Speaker: And it's so funny.
Speaker: Spot on.
Speaker: It's so funny when it goes so bad because you're like, that is so wrong.
Speaker: That is so, so wrong.
Speaker: Those melodies sometimes, they are so close.
Speaker: Like the harmonies are so close to sounding terrible, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Like I was thinking Company in...
Speaker: you know, poor baby, which is like a bit of a piece of that.
Speaker: It's like that really high when she's like, I'm not going to do it, but she's like, poor baby, but it's like up another octave.
Speaker: And it's, oh, when it goes bad, it goes bad.
Speaker: Can I just say, that was my line.
Speaker: We had to switch it around because I think it was me and Georgia and Georgia won't mind me saying it, but she couldn't do it because she was like alto through and through.
Speaker: But that's originally Jenny's line in the show.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So they switched it around and I was like, great.
Speaker: Yeah, I know I've got it.
Speaker: I've got to do it.
Speaker: It was so hard.
Speaker: Sounds good.
Speaker: But when it's hit, sounds good.
Speaker: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker: The thing is though, with a Sondheim like harmony, if you hit it exactly right, you're like, that is hot.
Speaker: That is just so good.
Speaker: But then if you get it wrong, you're like, that needs to stop.
Speaker: Like in God, that's good.
Speaker: I always think because that is an intricate thing.
Speaker: like I think it's a six part harmony and they are all like
Speaker: if any one person is off, that's like cats wailing.
Speaker: And then when you hit it, like just right, it's so gorgeous.
Speaker: The boy is talented.
Speaker: The thing is when you're doing it, you're like, why are we singing in 12 part harmony right now?
Speaker: This is really, really hard.
Speaker: But then when you pull it off, you're like, oh, the payoff is worth it though.
Speaker: It sounds gorgeous.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But yeah, no, because the sopranos got to a high C sharp, which is horrible.
Speaker: It's horrible.
Speaker: I'm so glad I'm not a soprano.
Speaker: I was never, I was like alto all the way, baby.
Speaker: So, and then, and then suddenly after that kind of like crazy sweetie, sweetie,
Speaker: we hear Sweeney and he finally enters and he sings a very clean, very disciplined vocal line and the chorus then repeat it back to him.
Speaker: And it's this like weird, like call and response, almost that he's like the puppeteer in charge of like what they're doing.
Speaker: And it,
Speaker: definitely definitely symbolizes his power over the plot and also kind of over London town like especially the more the story goes on and the more you learn about him and his like and his plots and everything he has so much power and yeah like obviously Mrs. Lovett has like a Lady Macbeth feel to it but he definitely has like this he has this way about him where like he's one of those characters that like enters the room and everyone goes quiet like he has such a
Speaker: I think whoever plays Sweeney, they have to have such a presence to them in order to kind of really... Such a command of space, I think.
Speaker: It takes a really specific type of actor.
Speaker: I mean, definitely not to that calibre, but that's what I always think about when... Which I've never seen on stage, and it's one of my favourite musicals, Guilty Pleasure and Oliver.
Speaker: The amount of Bill Sykes I've seen that I've just been cast completely wrong because when he walks onto stage, it's got to go, especially at the beginning of my game.
Speaker: You've got to feel chilled.
Speaker: You've got to feel like that's a bad man.
Speaker: Yeah, it's obviously got to be nowhere near.
Speaker: But then this is what I think with Sweeney Todd is it might be an unpopular opinion, but what I think is really tragic about Sweeney Todd as well is that I don't think if these two characters had met each other that there would have been any murder at all.
Speaker: I think if they'd been left to their own devices...
Speaker: it wouldn't have, I mean, yeah, it wouldn't have gotten to the point it got to.
Speaker: Because Mrs. Lovett is the one that tells him that Joanna is dead and lies.
Speaker: And then he, I think from that moment on, he makes that decision to be like, cause, cause up until then he was just shaving and then it wasn't until she was like, yeah, Joanna's dead.
Speaker: And then he learned about, um, what's happened to her.
Speaker: Uh, sorry, what's happened to his daughter and,
Speaker: that was like the pivotal moment where he was like right I'm now going to sing a song about my knives and I'm gonna take I'm gonna take revenge basically um so I agree with that it would be interesting to see I mean it wouldn't really be a very interesting story I guess if they'd never met because he'd be like well I'm not in London um I think as well like he like definitely at the start obviously after he kills Pirelli I think he's still in a mode of like I'm like I have my pursuit of my goal
Speaker: which is that I want revenge.
Speaker: And I think he would just kill anyone personally.
Speaker: I think he would just kill anyone in pursuit of this revenge story.
Speaker: And then maybe he would feel fulfilled at the end when he kills the judge and maybe that would be it.
Speaker: But it's Mrs. Lovett when she's like, look, it's a waste.
Speaker: yeah um who's like no i think we can kind of capitalize off of this and then i think it slightly pivots for him to not only be like i'm taking revenge on the judge it's like i'm taking revenge on the system that made me and i'm taking revenge on london
Speaker: And that's where it pivots, I think.
Speaker: And then he begins to obviously take pleasure in it and he's getting something of it.
Speaker: But like, I think without Mrs. Lovett being like, FYI, then he's like, oh yeah, FYI, I can just get revenge on the people of London actually.
Speaker: Instead of that bloody church.
Speaker: Yeah, like I think if they hadn't,
Speaker: I mean, yeah, maybe I'm going a bit too far to say there would have been anything, but maybe he would have got the judge and that would have been it.
Speaker: And it wouldn't have been turned into this whole like killing machine.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Almost like a killing factory.
Speaker: God, it's so clever, isn't it?
Speaker: people at home are like we get it we get that there's a factory we get it's the industrial revolution there shut up machines no but it is so clever it's just so clever that the shop turns into a factory that like he kills them it goes to even like the mechanism of the chair is like that is symbolizing the industrial revolution because we've got the mechanics involved now and it means the production's getting faster and yeah it's just god they know what they're bloody well doing
Speaker: He does.
Speaker: He knows what he's doing.
Speaker: But to come to the end of the song, they end it with the chorus and the instrumentation basically calming down this final motif, which is the first motif that you hear.
Speaker: But instead you hear it on a xylophone, I think, where it's, I don't know what it is.
Speaker: I was trying to work out.
Speaker: It's on a marimba, is it?
Speaker: Yeah, it's like, but the way that the instrument they choose, it almost sounds like blood.
Speaker: I always think this, because the way it's like, it sounds like something's like trickling like water or like blood.
Speaker: And then they end with the demon Barbara and Flea Depe.
Speaker: Street and I love that bit because they have that they have that like pause, which is like, it's almost like a fear that they don't want to say they they they don't want the story to start but it's also that kind of it's that wordplay of using the dissonance in the music but in language instead.
Speaker: and also it's almost kind of like a jump scare for the audience like you kind of think it's going to go the demon barbara fleet street but again sometimes like no screw that I'm gonna I'm gonna make them wait for it and again it's that funny thing in rehearsals I remember when we were rehearsing this last bit there was always one that came in too early and it's so funny demon barbara fleet street street and it's always so funny um when people get it wrong um
Speaker: But yeah, I mean, the opening number is just like chef's kiss.
Speaker: It's such a fantastic opening number to this amazing musical.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So I am going to take us through one of my favourite numbers from the show, which is A Little Priest.
Speaker: I love this number because one of my favorite things about Sondheim is just how clever, I think because he is such a brilliant composer and such a brilliant orchestrator as well, sometimes people forget about just how clever his lyrics are.
Speaker: And not only does he have kind of like really witty lyrics and really nuanced lyrics and, you know, there's words in there that really tug at your heartstrings, beautiful kind of imagery and stuff.
Speaker: He just also has a very clever way of like rhyming.
Speaker: And he uses, he doesn't use words sparingly in his works.
Speaker: He uses words to kind of fuel the narrative and to give you a perspective
Speaker: on what each character thinks about the world around them.
Speaker: So it's not just saying something for the sake of saying it.
Speaker: It's either driving the narrative or it's giving you a little glibber of how that character feels about something.
Speaker: And I think A Little Priest is just a perfect example of a song that not only drives the plot along because she's obviously introducing this idea of, hey, perhaps we can utilize the meat and kind of like kickstart my business again.
Speaker: But we can, it also gives us an indication of how, because they use,
Speaker: different professions and how might they taste and things like that it also gives you a glimmer into the kind of class structures of that world and how they see different professions which I just think is really clever
Speaker: It's very funny as well.
Speaker: It's very, very funny.
Speaker: So funny.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, so funny.
Speaker: If no one has seen the Sondheim 88th birthday concert, I think I talked about this in the last episode, the Patti LuPone and I think Len Carrey, you, and I can't remember the other Sweeney Todd, but they do a version of a little priest, the three of them.
Speaker: And it's hilarious.
Speaker: It is really, really funny.
Speaker: I think it's hard to do a funny musical theater song that's actually funny.
Speaker: Yeah, I was gonna say, I think the reason why it works time and time again is because it's very, again, like the music is very unpredictable.
Speaker: And like, you don't really know where Mrs. Lovett is going to go with this.
Speaker: And I feel like even she's like, I don't really know where I'm going to go with this.
Speaker: And then when they start talking about other people, it's kind of just like, it's yeah, it's brilliant.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: And I think like that even comes in that I don't think she knows where she's going to end up.
Speaker: And she's kind of boosted and buoyed by his reaction to her because he immediately is quite positive around it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's very brief.
Speaker: Which makes it funny because you're like, that's ridiculous that he's like, that's a great day.
Speaker: Yeah, it's so funny.
Speaker: So just to recap, this is a duet between Sweeney Todd and Mrs. Lovett and it comes just after Lovett has discovered Todd has killed Pirelli.
Speaker: So Todd kills Pirelli, Mrs. Lovett finds out about it and she kind of hides the purse, the coin purse.
Speaker: um to kind of get rid of evidence and the judge comes in and obviously Sweeney doesn't manage to get the judge but they're left with this problem of what do we do with Pirelli's body and before this song they kind of discuss how to dispose of the body and Mrs Lovett has like what you would call a light bulb moment where she's like
Speaker: hey there i think this could work out for the both of us um she basically says hey i think we can use the body of pirelli and maybe some future victims she's just floating murder um just pushing murder out there just pushing murder out there um
Speaker: Because what Todd has said after the judge has kind of slipped out of his hands is he's like, right, I'm going to rid London of all able.
Speaker: And she's like, that's so funny that you say that because I need me.
Speaker: This could work out for the both of us.
Speaker: so in this song Mrs. Lovett kind of introduces this idea to Todd and she discusses how it might work what the different victims might taste like and by the end of the number Todd is essentially fully on board and they become co-conspirators in this kind of murderous and no one ever talks about this word with Sweeney Todd but cannibalistic plan and this idea I think of kind of
Speaker: killing the people of London that he sees as evil, he sees as kind of too far gone in capitalism, greedy, cooking them, and then kind of this factory idea of then
Speaker: the product becoming them and feeding it back to the people of London.
Speaker: It's almost like he's kind of holding a mirror up to society, this kind of capitalistic, greedy society that he thinks has been born at the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker: And then instead of just being like, here's what you guys are, he's like, fuck that.
Speaker: I'm going to smash the mirror.
Speaker: I'm actually just going to stab you with it.
Speaker: It's just so on the nose.
Speaker: Yeah, it's kind of like a middle finger to London.
Speaker: Yeah, completely.
Speaker: Instead of helping them reform.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: He's like, hmm.
Speaker: Hey.
Speaker: But to be fair, though, London has treated him so badly.
Speaker: So he feels like he has a right to be like, you know what, I don't owe you guys anything.
Speaker: I'm going to kill you, cook you, and then you guys are going to eat each other.
Speaker: which is just... Yeah, I'm going to force feed you the reality of this situation.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It's brilliant.
Speaker: So Sondheim, of course, who's known for his kind of razor sharp wit and ingenuity when it comes to lyricism, he basically packs each line with kind of clever wordplay and really like surprising rhymes.
Speaker: So there's a great kind of quote from this music analyst called Joseph L. Holland, who says, A little priest serves as a duet between the central characters, Sweeney Todd and Mrs. Lovett, both of whom are driven by their own personal motives.
Speaker: The song takes place in Mrs. Lovett's pie shop, where the two protagonists form a sinister alliance, combining their respective skills of barbering and baking to hatch a diabolical plan.
Speaker: As the title suggests, the song revolves around the gruesome notion of turning human flesh into savoury meat pies.
Speaker: However, its true brilliance lies in the underlying satire and dark humour present in Sondheim's lyrics.
Speaker: He uses sharp wit and double entendre to craft lyrics that are simultaneously shocking and amusing to the audience.
Speaker: The characters engage in cheeky banter as they discuss various professions and how their respective clienteles might contribute to the improvement of the pies.
Speaker: The song plays with the notion of societal hierarchy, poking fun at different occupations and shedding light on the moral decay of Victorian London.
Speaker: It forces the audience to confront the uncomfortable truths while expertly towing the line between laughter and horror.
Speaker: Which I think is very true.
Speaker: When you're like listening to it, you're like, he's a little priest.
Speaker: And then you're like, oh, God, they're actually talking about how human flesh might taste like this.
Speaker: And cannibalism.
Speaker: And we're there like, la, la, la, la.
Speaker: So the number is a key moment within Act One.
Speaker: Of course, it not only sets up the kind of narrative arc of Act Two, but it also showcases this kind of moral decay.
Speaker: So the lyrics.
Speaker: In the first verse, Lovett introduces the idea of using the victim's bodies as meat.
Speaker: And what's interesting, just as you were saying, Flo, it's almost like she's just come up with this.
Speaker: This is a light bulb moment and it's on the spot.
Speaker: And this kind of first section of the song really speaks to this idea that she's kind of just
Speaker: She's kind of seeing things out later.
Speaker: As they come.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: I feel like the music also does that.
Speaker: The music doesn't force her to have like a rhythm.
Speaker: It's just very like, I feel like it almost follows her.
Speaker: Like with her opening like, seems an awful waste.
Speaker: Like that whole like opening bit where she's almost kind of thinking about it and she's like, I'm just going to go and say it.
Speaker: I'm going to tell him what I'm thinking.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And she, she's kind of, she is toying with him a little bit.
Speaker: I think she's just ahead of her thoughts.
Speaker: And she says, it seems a downright shame.
Speaker: And he says, shame.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Seems an awful way.
Speaker: Such a nice plump frame.
Speaker: What's his name, Had?
Speaker: That's Pirelli.
Speaker: Had.
Speaker: Has.
Speaker: She's still kind of getting to put some of the fact that I do.
Speaker: Which is getting very, very funny because also it kind of gives you an insight to her, like, not education, but like her understanding of English language.
Speaker: Like, had.
Speaker: Has.
Speaker: Had.
Speaker: I'm not sure which one's which.
Speaker: Which is quite funny.
Speaker: And it's also like the toe in the line of like, oh, yeah, it's a waste.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: hang on, there's still a body.
Speaker: Is it a waste?
Speaker: We can use it.
Speaker: Like, it is that sort of thought, that thought trade.
Speaker: Completely, yeah.
Speaker: You're so right.
Speaker: It's like, it might not be a waste.
Speaker: Nor can it be traced because they obviously know now that she's taken the evidence of the purse.
Speaker: Business needs a lift, debts to be erased.
Speaker: So she's kind of reeling him in with being like, well, I'm not doing so well here, sir.
Speaker: And, you know, the debts, I've got racked up a lot of debts.
Speaker: Think of it as thrift.
Speaker: And she's still not said it yet.
Speaker: She's like just giving.
Speaker: It's like she's excusing everything.
Speaker: She's layering it with like these excuses and this build up as a gift.
Speaker: If you get my drift.
Speaker: He doesn't quite get a gift.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Seems an awful waste.
Speaker: And then here she goes.
Speaker: She just hits the nail on the head and she tries to give it to him.
Speaker: I mean, with the price of meat, what it is, when you get it.
Speaker: And then she goes, stops.
Speaker: And she says, if you get it.
Speaker: yeah and that's essentially her introduced it she says with the price of meat what it is when you get it if you get it and she's obviously meaning if you get do you get what can you get the meat there's an access issues but also do you get it mr todd i'm giving you this kind of wink wink yeah we should do yeah and don't worry because todd gets it uh he immediately is it's ridiculous how quickly he's on board but
Speaker: So it's a really great opening line with these kind of opening verse.
Speaker: She set up our problem, the opportunity and solution.
Speaker: So the problems are that the shop's struggling.
Speaker: It's in debt.
Speaker: The economy's in the shitter and the price of goods has been driven up.
Speaker: The opportunity is that Todd's killed a man and the body does need to be disposed of and it would be wasteful otherwise.
Speaker: And here's the solution.
Speaker: Reuse the meat and the pies.
Speaker: No evidence will lead back to them.
Speaker: The shop's going to thrive.
Speaker: with each kind of new lyric and new thought mrs lovett not only kind of convinces todd of the merit of her idea but also provides key opinions on the different professions that could pass through the shop and end up as victims kind of setting up this class divisions as a kind of centering narrative tool within the story arc so a few kind of great examples of this is of course our namesake from the song um she says it's priest have a little priest
Speaker: And then Todd says, is it really good?
Speaker: She says, sir, it's too good at least.
Speaker: Then again, they don't commit sins of the flesh.
Speaker: So it's pretty fresh.
Speaker: Todd says awful lot of fat only where it sat, which is just very, very, very funny.
Speaker: So kind of trying to say that because priests apparently don't commit sins of the flesh, that their body would be untainted and therefore like nicer to eat.
Speaker: But awful lot of fat only where it sat is very, very funny.
Speaker: So I think how I read it is they kind of view priests not as a kind of manipulative form of like political interference as like the Catholic Church may have been in those days, but rather it's just kind of like lazy, really unhelpful beings.
Speaker: So I think this lyrics is kind of like a criticism on the passive nature and rhetoric of the Church of England Church in that time.
Speaker: I'm not claiming that that's what they are like now.
Speaker: who claim to kind of support the working class and offer a kind of safe haven, but don't advocate for them.
Speaker: So they don't take any direct action to support the poor.
Speaker: They welcome them to the church.
Speaker: They listen to their woes and say, oh, God, it's so terrible.
Speaker: And then they take the funding from the kind of upper classes and the politicians who are implementing the policies that kind of negatively impact the church.
Speaker: I've kind of summed it up as they rob Peter not to pay Paul, but rather to kind of dangle the carrot of prosperity in front of Paul so that Paul doesn't rise up against those who have wronged them.
Speaker: So then we move on to my favourite lyric, which is, well, then if you're British and loyal, you might enjoy Royal Marine.
Speaker: Anyway, it's clean, though of course it tastes of wherever it's been.
Speaker: I really interpret this, of course, Royal Marines, especially during that time and kind of still to this day, they're doing lots of traveling all over the world.
Speaker: But in those days, we're kind of back in imperialist Britain.
Speaker: So I take this as a kind of anti-imperialist statement, really, where it kind of reflects the British army and the Nami of that time, which is obviously kind of in the Victorian era,
Speaker: that is this kind of Britannia rules the waves and it's this going out, this kind of colonialist attitude of going to different countries and conquering and kind of taking these culture and treasures as their own as a kind of a show of ownership.
Speaker: So though, of course, it tasted wherever it's been, it's like these navies have gone out and they've taken little bits of this land.
Speaker: as Todd was obviously exiled to Australia as a prisoner and was likely taken by the Navy in a kind of cargo.
Speaker: He certainly would have either been the victim of or would have witnessed the kind of brutalisation of the Indigenous people of Australia by the British military then.
Speaker: And I think he would have had a lot of ill will towards them, which probably would have been justified.
Speaker: But what I think is really interesting is the Royal Marines during that time
Speaker: they had, the Navy had like a kind of hazing ritual that they used to use that's kind of performed at the equator.
Speaker: And it's called, it's called Neptune's Barber.
Speaker: And it basically means that whenever you get to like crossing the border of the equator, when you're on their travels, what they would do is for first time sailors, they would shave their beards and they would shave them clean.
Speaker: That is so fascinating.
Speaker: Isn't it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I love it when stuff goes like this.
Speaker: It's very tenet.
Speaker: Like it's all just like it all comes together.
Speaker: And often it was really violently.
Speaker: So it was out kind of consent.
Speaker: So they would just grab these.
Speaker: And I think there's a lot of other kind of rituals they did at the equator that's linked with King Neptune and things like that.
Speaker: Some of them are quite barbaric.
Speaker: But it was quite barbaric in its sense that they would just grab these sailors from their bed and they would be naked, I think, and they would roughly shave them, this very violent thing.
Speaker: So you can imagine that maybe Todd had experienced something like that.
Speaker: Maybe he was the victim of that, but it just has this great link of the cleanliness of a shave and the kind of gentleness that it's meant to be balanced with the fact that even when you're just getting a normal shave,
Speaker: you have a knife, you're trusting someone, you've got this knife very close to... Like, violence is just around the corner, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which you definitely see in, like, the song Pretty Women, where, like, the actual song itself, out of context, is actually quite a melodic song.
Speaker: Like, Pretty Women, like, it's very, like, melodic, but the actual act of him holding a blade against his, like, face and his neck, and what he's internally wanting to do to him...
Speaker: it's that like juxtaposition of something that is very, very kind of vulnerable and very close versus something that is just so barbaric.
Speaker: And so, yeah, it's very interesting.
Speaker: I just thought that was so, yeah, I thought it was such an interesting like ritual that I imagine it's like Todd's recreating that in his own image and he's kind of manipulated it.
Speaker: So another quick profession and the opinions that Todd and Lovett have on them.
Speaker: This one's a bit of a silly quick one.
Speaker: But here's the politician.
Speaker: So oily, it's served with a doily.
Speaker: I just love that imagery of the slipperiness of the politicians of their day.
Speaker: Like slimy.
Speaker: Yeah, it's so evocative, I think.
Speaker: Even when they've been cooked and processed, you still have to serve them with a doily just to catch all the grease that's spilling off of them.
Speaker: I think it's like such a great image.
Speaker: And like it's served with a doily because obviously doilies are quite like fancy in a way.
Speaker: And I think it kind of speaks to the fact that at the time politicians before kind of MPs were paid that like standard wage and stuff.
Speaker: The majority of politicians were people that could afford to do that full time without being paid.
Speaker: So they often were upper class.
Speaker: So like I think that doily also speaks to that kind of aristocracy as well, which I quite like.
Speaker: um and then a couple of other ones that I think are funny that then the actor that's compactor and then Todd goes yes and always arrives over done which I just think is funny um it's just very poor actors and then I think this is the section of the song and I love this section it's really melodic but it really sums up
Speaker: the ethos of what they're about to do and why they're about to do it.
Speaker: And Todd kind of takes over the melody at this point, which kind of had been driven by Mrs. Lovett.
Speaker: And he does this gorgeous, like...
Speaker: And I'm like, legato.
Speaker: It's like, the history of the world, my sweet.
Speaker: And then she goes, oh, Mr. Todd, oh, Mr. Todd, what does it tell?
Speaker: And he says, it's who gets eaten and who gets to eat.
Speaker: And that, I think, just completely sums up.
Speaker: Doggy dog world.
Speaker: I'm bringing it back to the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker: Yeah, it's this doggy dog.
Speaker: It's this proletariat and the bourgeoisie.
Speaker: It's the oppressed and the oppressor, the factory and its worker, the product and its consumer.
Speaker: Like, it's just this great juxtaposition.
Speaker: And then, because it's sun time,
Speaker: He's always got to cycle that one step further and one step more nuanced.
Speaker: And Mrs. Lovett says, and Mr. Todd too, Mr. Todd, who gets to sell?
Speaker: And that is the question there.
Speaker: So you have who gets eaten, who gets to eat and who gets to sell, who gets to profit.
Speaker: And they make that decision there that they recognize this kind of big disparity between the oppressed and the oppressor, the factory and its worker, the product and its consumer.
Speaker: And they say, we're sitting outside of that.
Speaker: And we're going to profit.
Speaker: We're going to sell.
Speaker: And we're going to be this bridge between the world.
Speaker: They're going to be the kind of circle that the kind of connection that completes the circle, the cycle of consumerism, which I just think is so, so interesting.
Speaker: And then the way that it kind of ends, and this is what I'll end on, which is such a funny way of ending it, but it also completely justifies them.
Speaker: Not that we think it's justified, but they justify each other in the decision that they've made.
Speaker: So they've made this separation.
Speaker: They say that it's who gets eaten, who gets to eat, and who gets to sell.
Speaker: Who's the victim?
Speaker: Who's the consumer?
Speaker: Who's the seller?
Speaker: And they say, but unfortunately, it's also clear that everybody goes down well with beer, which is just a brilliant, brilliant lyric.
Speaker: So I think this kind of summarizes Todd's like philosophy and his justification for the murders because it's kind of his like twisted idea of justice.
Speaker: So obviously in death, kind of no matter your class or your riches or anything that you've done to hurt other people or maybe the moral good that you had.
Speaker: everyone is just treated the same.
Speaker: It's this idea that kind of everyone is equal and Todd is kind of basically he's laying it bare so he's laying out all the professions all their ideals all their immorality and their evils and he's kind of processing it and feeding it right back to the people that created it.
Speaker: It's just to be honest to sum it up it's a bloody great song
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: So now we enter a song, which is probably one of my favorites again.
Speaker: I mean, I have many favorites.
Speaker: I feel like I'm very, very biased, but one of my favorites, which is Joanna.
Speaker: And it's one of my favorites because it's just such a beautiful song.
Speaker: And I feel like it gives, you know how like in a tragedy you have like a comedy relief.
Speaker: I kind of feel like this is like the romantic relief that we need within this musical.
Speaker: Like we need something that's just like pretty.
Speaker: that isn't like, you know.
Speaker: It does feel, it feels like off brand for the musical sort of.
Speaker: Yeah, it feels, you're kind of like, am I in a different world suddenly?
Speaker: But yeah, it's a gorgeous, gorgeous song.
Speaker: And it's sang by the young Anthony.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So as always, I love, I love kind of talking about the key of the music.
Speaker: Muses out there, this one goes back to you.
Speaker: So the music is written in E flat major, which is very interesting because, and I didn't know this, maybe people at home knew this, E flat major is actually a key that is associated with being bold and heroic.
Speaker: So other composers that have used this key a lot include Beethoven, Beethoven,
Speaker: He used it in his Eroica symphony.
Speaker: He used it in his Emperor concerto, his Grand Sonata.
Speaker: Mozart used it in his Korn concerto.
Speaker: Korn?
Speaker: Korn?
Speaker: Horn concerto.
Speaker: I want to know what the corn concert was.
Speaker: And his barley concerto.
Speaker: No, Mozart used it in his horn concerto.
Speaker: Haydn used it in his trumpet concertos and Strauss used it in his piece called A Hero's Life.
Speaker: And one of my favourite pieces of music, Holst used it in his Planets music.
Speaker: He used it in Jupiter.
Speaker: So that kind of key has been heard a lot to kind of symbolise something that is bold, heroic.
Speaker: And I guess it kind of matches what Anthony is doing to be with Joanna, where he's, and I hate doing this as a woman, but it's like him being like, I'll be your hero.
Speaker: I'll save you from this terrible world that you're living in, which the feminist in me is like, she doesn't need him, but also she's in a terrible situation where like, actually, no, she does need someone external who's actually going to help her because she's in a terrible situation.
Speaker: So that kind of sets like the tone of the piece.
Speaker: The piece is written in 4-4, nothing really that kind of interesting, very kind of standard tempo.
Speaker: And we begin the song in a very romantic way.
Speaker: It's written in MP, which is kind of mezzo piano, so kind of like, kind of quiet.
Speaker: and it's written in andante tranquilo e non robato terribly said by me which basically means the piece is going at an easy pace it's tranquil but also we're not being robbed of time so it's like we're taking it slow it's quite tranquil but also get on with it mate that's basically what they're saying um the actual song itself has a very very simple structure chorus verse chorus verse chorus
Speaker: which is, again, quite nice because I feel like a lot of the music previous is all a bit kind of chaotic.
Speaker: It doesn't really follow a kind of structure.
Speaker: Straight away, we hear very distinct chords, four very distinct notes, chords, beats, however you want to call it.
Speaker: which again is being used as a motif throughout the song, which is like the da-da-da-da, that kind of really, that was terribly done by me.
Speaker: But if you know, you know, that kind of lovely kind of melodic four-bar kind of feel.
Speaker: Again, it kind of adds to this kind of triumphant quality because as it ascends, it kind of feels like this light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker: And you kind of hear Anthony start to sing kind of almost along with this four beat, four chord motif.
Speaker: And then he kind of has a moment where he slightly quickens, where he sings, I was half convinced I'd waken, satisfied enough to dream.
Speaker: And what's interesting is that Sondheim changes the note on the word dream from a G natural to a G flat.
Speaker: So he creates this sense of dissonance.
Speaker: in the piece where before you hadn't heard any dissonance.
Speaker: So he creates this kind of uneasiness of,
Speaker: within quite a romantic song, which is just so Sondheim, so Sweeney.
Speaker: Again, very, very on brand of just like the whole story, that even though there's like this lovely romantic song, you know that there's something that's not quite right about it anyway.
Speaker: Soon enough, he brings us back to this kind of main motif.
Speaker: And just before the final chorus, we hear a very triumphant kind of orchestra line
Speaker: which continues as Anthony sings his final chorus, which is like really, really like, has very layered, lots of different instruments.
Speaker: And it gives this kind of sense of throughout this story where you're like, oh God, can it get any worse?
Speaker: It kind of gives a sense of like courage, determination that Anthony is going to save Joanna amongst this kind of darkness within the story.
Speaker: And the song ends with this, again, there's kind of four distinct notes
Speaker: It gets a little bit slower, a little bit more defined, and it ends very triumphantly on the last note, which again is very like,
Speaker: very off-brand for a lot of his previous songs where it kind of ends with you being like, oh God, is that the end of the song?
Speaker: Whereas this is like, this is the end of the song.
Speaker: And yeah, it's just a lovely song.
Speaker: And I feel like lots of guys, if they want like a romantic song, they kind of add it to their rep because it's just like a gorgeous song.
Speaker: To be honest, I want to sing it.
Speaker: I want to add it to my rep.
Speaker: I feel like guys and girls, they, them should sing it because it's a gorgeous, gorgeous song.
Speaker: So moving on now to By the Sea, which is one of my favourite songs.
Speaker: Mrs. Lover is just one of my favourite characters.
Speaker: I just support women's rights, but also women's wrongs.
Speaker: So a character like... That is so brilliant.
Speaker: Any sort of female character, I'm like, but she's doing it for...
Speaker: There must be a reason.
Speaker: There must be a justification as to why she's doing this.
Speaker: I am.
Speaker: I will defend any female villain with my life.
Speaker: So it's just a great song.
Speaker: I think it's more than being great lyrically and musically.
Speaker: It probably doesn't fall into the category of being that great.
Speaker: you know, sort of amazing compared to the other songs in Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: I think more so for the way it sort of propels the plot towards the end.
Speaker: We're kind of seeing a different dynamic now appearing between Sweeney and Love It.
Speaker: So the song falls around about halfway in act two.
Speaker: The song is sung by Mrs. Love It.
Speaker: It's basically a love letter to Sweeney and
Speaker: with Mrs. Lovett talking about their future together and everything they'll do.
Speaker: She's sort of like planning out their lives together almost, piece by piece, thinking of all the specifics, like really random things.
Speaker: Like you can tell.
Speaker: Do you know when you're first getting with someone and you just start... I don't know if maybe this is just me.
Speaker: Like when you sort of fall in love and you're like...
Speaker: oh, can't wait till we're 62 and we're sat on rocking chairs on the front porch and doing all of that.
Speaker: She's basically saying that out loud to him.
Speaker: So lines like, we'll have chums over every Friday.
Speaker: It's a really cute line.
Speaker: I love that one.
Speaker: Even down to the kind of clothes that they'll wear.
Speaker: And she sort of plans out the wedding and talks about the wedding day.
Speaker: So it's really clear at this point in the musical that Mrs. Lovett is like head over heels.
Speaker: Sweeney, however, is a very monotone and sort of unresponsive during this entire song,
Speaker: which differs to his usual fast-paced style.
Speaker: The songs that they've had together have been sort of quick patter, like back and forth.
Speaker: There's quite a lot of talking to each other and sort of bouncing off each other.
Speaker: And it really differs in this song.
Speaker: It's becoming more and more obvious that Sweeney is becoming obsessive and consumed by his desire for revenge.
Speaker: It's not sort of a thing that he's thinking about now.
Speaker: It's kind of this desire to get revenge on everyone has completely taken over him and nothing else now sort of around him affects him at all.
Speaker: He has one goal.
Speaker: It's kind of that... What's the saying?
Speaker: Tunnel vision.
Speaker: Tunnel vision.
Speaker: tunnel vision, like he's got, he can't think of anything else.
Speaker: So he clearly does not reciprocate these feelings that Mrs. Lovett has.
Speaker: And
Speaker: And it is quite clear.
Speaker: He's making it quite obvious.
Speaker: In the presentation of him on stage, he is very much not even giving her eye contact for 90% of the song.
Speaker: However, this does not deter Mrs. Lovett.
Speaker: She continues her fantasies and tries to encourage him to join in.
Speaker: I think it's really well done in the film.
Speaker: I think what the film does really well with the imagery of this is that rather than her just singing about these situations like what their house is going to be like,
Speaker: where they're going to live, what they're going to wear, how they're going to be.
Speaker: It shows you.
Speaker: So the imagery in the film is really beautiful.
Speaker: It kind of gives you snippets into this life that Mrs. Lovett has created in her head and kind of goes back and forth between these little sections.
Speaker: And in every single one, Sweeney is just like dead to the world, sort of.
Speaker: He's kind of, you know, the lights are on, but nobody's home.
Speaker: He doesn't really respond.
Speaker: He doesn't engage in these fantasies.
Speaker: He's just kind of there.
Speaker: It definitely feels like before they were like kind of co-conspirators, it feels like he's now branched out.
Speaker: I mean, I think there's a big argument to make about whether he did really ever feel like co-conspirators with her or whether they ever felt like they were a partnership.
Speaker: She certainly did feel like that.
Speaker: But he has now gone more of a close and it's like, it's my revenge story.
Speaker: It's my doing.
Speaker: And this is, this is my actions, my kind of theory of revenge that I'm enacting solely.
Speaker: And she's trying to like bring him back to be like, this was us.
Speaker: And like, and we could have a life beyond this and like, come back to me.
Speaker: And he's just so passive and unengaged.
Speaker: And he was just so focused on like what he sees as like his story.
Speaker: She definitely sees them both as like two sides of the same coin.
Speaker: he's like love i'm in a completely different person i feel like love isn't his priority in this in this musical in this world and i feel like that is very much that is very much mrs lovett's priority is that even though she wants to help him scheme her drive in this musical is very much like i've always always loved you i've always like i've always had a fancy towards you whereas he's like i've
Speaker: ever since I've been shipped to Australia, I want to get revenge.
Speaker: So it's sad because you kind of see that also at the beginning of the story when she first introduces him like back to the barbershop.
Speaker: And like he at that point is very like, almost kind of disconnected from her.
Speaker: And it's not until she proves useful to him that he shows interest to her.
Speaker: And that's what's interesting about their relationship is that
Speaker: And it's sad for her because I don't think she gets that.
Speaker: I don't think she realises that he is very much using her for his own advances.
Speaker: And even to the very, very end where they're both dancing together, when he realises that she's been lying to him about his love being dead, and then he ends up killing her.
Speaker: Sorry, plot alert.
Speaker: Sorry, what's it called?
Speaker: What's it called?
Speaker: Spoiler alert.
Speaker: Plot alert.
Speaker: Spoiler alert.
Speaker: Um, I don't know what I'm trying to say.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Yeah, it adds so many layers to their relationship because I feel what's interesting about lots of the posters is that they put them, like there's that cartoon poster, which is a very famous one of Sweetie Todd, but they're both like, they're both looking, I mean, people at home can't see what I'm doing with my face, but they both look kind of like, it kind of looks like a comedy.
Speaker: And it's interesting because their relationship, yeah, it's funny, but it's also really tragic because it's very one-sided.
Speaker: It's very, very one-sided, that like love relationship.
Speaker: And that song, By the Sea, is a really clear way of showing, actually, that Sweeney doesn't really care for Mrs. Lovett as a person.
Speaker: He's using her and he's kind of like, you can sing your little song.
Speaker: I'm not bothered.
Speaker: Yeah, it's definitely kind of like...
Speaker: I've used you for your purpose now.
Speaker: I don't really need you anymore.
Speaker: And it's kind of like when they've, a little priest is kind of the complete opposite of by the sea is that is the moment when they both realize they can utilize each other or more, but he can utilize her to like act out this, this revenge scheme that he's got going on.
Speaker: Whereas she's sort of seeing this as, finally, I've got somebody, like she's probably been really lonely before this point and has found somebody that maybe has the same sort of fascinations and is very similar to her.
Speaker: And she definitely sees this as some sort of partnership.
Speaker: I'm not sure.
Speaker: Did you see, I put it on the socials at last episode, Sutton Foster in Singing by the Sea,
Speaker: where she's sort of like sat all over him.
Speaker: And she's like rolling around as well, like on top of him.
Speaker: I was like, what is this like?
Speaker: What in the sudden foster is going on?
Speaker: I was like, I'm so confused.
Speaker: It really, it kind of rings true to the, just to the opening of the song where she's like, oh, Mr. Dodd, I'm so happy.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: She can't, it's just that I can't get enough of you.
Speaker: I am so in love with you.
Speaker: And he is sat there completely just,
Speaker: like in the chair, disassociating.
Speaker: And she's just kind of sat on his knee, climbing all over him, kissing him, like trying to get his attention, like lifting her legs up, trying to woo him.
Speaker: And he just could not be more bothered.
Speaker: It's really quite sad, but it's really, really funny.
Speaker: So Sweeney's only responses during the song are purely obligatory because of Mrs. Lovett's incessant badgering, trying to get some sort of response from him.
Speaker: He gives short answers.
Speaker: So after when she's asking him, don't you want to know?
Speaker: And he's like, of course.
Speaker: And she's like, do you really want to know?
Speaker: She's like, come on, put some effort in.
Speaker: She's really pestering him to sort of engage in this fantasy that she's cooking up.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And he's like, yes, yes, I do.
Speaker: So it's all, it's just because she's bugging him, really.
Speaker: His responses after that are just revert into anything you say.
Speaker: That's, you know, every time she'll go on a big rant for like a whole verse and then he just goes, anything you say.
Speaker: It's sort of the equivalent of...
Speaker: Yeah, it's the equivalent of yes, dear, I think.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: That's basically what he's saying there.
Speaker: He's clearly not listening to her and he's caught up in his own thirst for revenge that he cannot possibly interact outside of that idea at all.
Speaker: The song itself, not very muso of me.
Speaker: I've wrote here quite floaty in melody.
Speaker: But, you know, it sort of differs from...
Speaker: the songs that they sing together, like if you think of how choppy a little priest is and quite how like it's a jaunty little tune, this one is quite melodic and
Speaker: And I think this is kind of to show that this is a dream and this is all hypothetical and a fantasy that Mrs. Lovett has created in her mind because this massively differs from the other songs the pair have sang together, which obviously, like I said, has been quite fast up until that point.
Speaker: It also kind of shows that they were both on the same page during those of the songs, whereas now she's kind of gone off into this sort of like love ballad, sort of like Joanna.
Speaker: It's completely changed pace.
Speaker: from the rest of the musical because now it's purely love and revenge isn't really taking part in this song at all and it completely changes from the rest of the score which i think is really quite interesting um so yet before the pair were on the same page but now that mrs lovett has has developed these romantic feelings it's clear they no longer are
Speaker: And then just a little, I tried to be a bit muso here, but correct me, Flo, if I've gone off on one.
Speaker: But the music starts off in 3-4.
Speaker: So during the speech and sort of the kissing bit, so the, oh, Mr. Todd, I could eat you up, I really could.
Speaker: That's all in 3-4.
Speaker: And then as soon as it gets to, by the sea, Mr. Todd, it changes to 4-4.
Speaker: So I'm not sure if that's done deliberately to kind of show like, okay, the beginning bit is reality and we are now inside Mrs. Lovett's head.
Speaker: This is what's going on in here.
Speaker: We've switched it.
Speaker: We switched up the tempo.
Speaker: This is to show now that this is kind of fantastical and isn't really set in reality anymore.
Speaker: Yeah, I think the three, four like definitely adds like a nice syncopation to her.
Speaker: like sporadic like first bit and then I guess like the full four I guess the change it probably just like helps settle the piece and it helps it feel a bit more even because you've got four beats rather than three beats in a bar um yeah I love that you're like flows the muso honestly I wish I wish I was this like amazing muso I just like I know like bass knowledge which I love to kind of delve into but I do love that
Speaker: So, our fantasy casting section looks a little different this episode.
Speaker: In Sweeney Todd Part 1, we cast the show using characters from Tim Burton's Beetlejuice, and surprise, surprise, yes, Catherine O'Hara was Mrs. Lovett.
Speaker: But for Part 2, we thought we'd give our listeners the chance to dream up an amazing cast for Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: We asked for your input on who you'd like to see in each main role in the show and we put together six options per character from your suggestions to put to a vote.
Speaker: You guys loved dreamcasting this show and we think that you actually came up with a pretty perfect cast for Sweeney.
Speaker: If you haven't seen it already on our socials, here's your dreamcast for Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: So let's work our way back up to the titular role.
Speaker: So first off we have Adolfo Pirelli who you decided was going to be played by none other than Jack Black.
Speaker: I'm actually so happy with this casting as Jack Black was my suggestion.
Speaker: I just thought he's so fun and I'm so glad that so many of you agreed with me.
Speaker: I think his Pirelli would be brilliant.
Speaker: As the beggar woman, or Lucy, Todd's estranged wife, we have Jessie Mueller, who, yep, I completely agree, that woman can turn her hand to anything, I think she'd be brilliant.
Speaker: As Judge Turpin, we have my man, Mandy Patinkin.
Speaker: Mandy is perfect for this role, his beautiful vibrato, his kind of stately attitude.
Speaker: I would absolutely love to see him do this role, I think he would just be amazing, but I just think Mandy Patinkin is amazing.
Speaker: As Joanna Barker we have Amanda Seyfried which yep I mean we all saw her as Cosette in Les Mis.
Speaker: The woman has a beautiful voice and she's got that lovely soprano range which is perfect for Joanna.
Speaker: As Beatle Bamford we have Toby Jones which yep that role was made for him.
Speaker: I would love to see him do that.
Speaker: As Tobias Rag we have Gaten Matarazzo who is of course from Stranger Things and who also just came off of the run on Broadway where he played Tobias so yeah pretty good casting there and from everything that I saw he was really good in that role so I think he's a pretty perfect Toby.
Speaker: And for Anthony Hope we have Andrew Garfield which I thought was a little bit left-wing but the more I'm thinking about it the more I think he might be right.
Speaker: I mean he obviously had a wonderful turn in Tick Tick Boom
Speaker: And he's got quite an interesting voice, I always think.
Speaker: And yeah, I think he would make quite a different Anthony, but one that I think would be really cool.
Speaker: Alright, time to pull out the big guns here.
Speaker: Mrs Lovett.
Speaker: Now this one was really tight.
Speaker: We had some great options.
Speaker: Catherine O'Harell was back in the mix.
Speaker: And it did come to a very close vote.
Speaker: But finally, Hannah Waddingham came out on top.
Speaker: And oh my goodness, yes, this role is made for her.
Speaker: I would love to see her do this show.
Speaker: I think she is just perfect.
Speaker: Alright, here it is.
Speaker: In the role of Sweeney Todd, the demon barber of Fleet Street, aka Benjamin Barker, we have the incomparable Joshua Henry.
Speaker: My good lord, how much would I love Joshua Henry to do Sweeney?
Speaker: His voice is just so rich, so powerful.
Speaker: I think he would just be a wonderful, wonderful Sweeney.
Speaker: and honestly guys i think you've smashed casting this we've got joshua henry hannah waddingham andrew garfield gayton materazzo toby jones amanda seafried mandy patinkin jesse muller and jack black so guys clear your schedules is all i've got to say we've got the current revival on broadway happening i say let's throw out beloved josh groban sorry josh i do love you um and let's get these guys in because i have got to see this in action
Speaker: Thanks so much for playing along with our fantasy casting of Sweeney Todd.
Speaker: We've absolutely loved doing this.
Speaker: And it seems like you guys did too.
Speaker: So please let us know if you'd like to see this in the future.
Speaker: If you'd like it to coincide with other episodes that we're doing.
Speaker: Or if there's any shows that you just fancy doing a little bit of casting for.
Speaker: We're happy to accommodate.
Speaker: So yeah, thank you so much for getting involved.
Speaker: And yeah, petition for this revival to be brought.
Speaker: Headed by Joshua Henry and Hannah Waddingham.
Speaker: And with a little guest appearance from Jack Black.
Speaker: Thanks so much guys.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Well, thank you for joining us on our two-part odyssey of Soin E. Todd, the demon barber of Leet.
Speaker: Street!
Speaker: I'm sure that timing was way off.
Speaker: Thank you so much for joining us on these two episodes.
Speaker: We've had so much fun doing a bit of a bigger deep dive on the music and a big shout out to Flo for keeping us on track with all her Muso knowledge.
Speaker: Just a reminder as well that you can rate and review us wherever you listen, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Speaker: Every little review helps as long as it's five stars.
Speaker: And we look forward to catching up with you soon.
Speaker: And just like that, we've been a little priest.
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: Bye.
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