Sunday on the Pod with... Chicago

Transcript

Speaker: So

Speaker: Hello and welcome to Sunday on the Pod with... Casey, Flo and Rosa.

Speaker: Welcome to Sunday on the Pod.

Speaker: Sunday on the Pod is a podcast all about musical theatre.

Speaker: However, this podcast isn't just for performers, but it's for anyone who loves musical theatre.

Speaker: Each episode we cover musicals that some of you may love, some of you might hate, or maybe you've never heard of them before.

Speaker: Either way, we'll be singing and dancing about them.

Speaker: If you didn't already know, we pick a musical and discuss its plot, the show's creators, dissecting specific songs lyrically, musically, delving into any juicy gossip, and in our recurring segment, Stage Door Secrets.

Speaker: So what are you waiting for?

Speaker: Sit back and enjoy the pod.

Speaker: And as always, the best way to keep up with us is on social media.

Speaker: Not only will you be notified when new episodes drop, but we also post fun quizzes, trivia, and exciting empty news about new shows and revivals.

Speaker: You can find us at Sunday on the pod on Instagram and X. That's right.

Speaker: I'm up with the times.

Speaker: And you can also find us on our Facebook group, which is Sunday on the pod.

Speaker: So I know you're all dying to hear what this month's episode is.

Speaker: So come on, babe.

Speaker: It is Chicago.

Speaker: I thought you were going to go with like, come on, babe.

Speaker: Well, that was, that was what I was going for, but.

Speaker: You didn't want to give too much away.

Speaker: I didn't want to, I didn't want to, yeah.

Speaker: We could have done clicks instead of drum rolls.

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: Or we could have been like wah, wah, wah, like that and leaning into it.

Speaker: Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.

Speaker: Five, six, seven, eight.

Speaker: Five, six, seven, eight.

Speaker: I love that.

Speaker: I mean, arguably one of the most loved, most successful musicals of all time.

Speaker: And I believe, gals, that Chicago is our first ever Candor and Ebb show.

Speaker: I absolutely adore Chicago.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean, it's a classic.

Speaker: I love Candor and Ebb.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Oh, my God.

Speaker: Dead or alive, get me a dinner party with them.

Speaker: It's just also like so empty.

Speaker: Like it was the thing that I did when I was like 11 years old.

Speaker: They were like, we're going to do a song from Chicago.

Speaker: And obviously everyone would be like, oh my God, yes.

Speaker: And we'd come in with like dodgy fishnet stockings and like something that was just like too tight to wear.

Speaker: And obviously we'd all do like cell block tango and be like, we are empty.

Speaker: And when I look back now, I'm like, that was so inappropriate for like an 11 year old person to be doing.

Speaker: It's like when skills do cabaret and you're like,

Speaker: well oh oh like yeah I mean um my funny uh cell block tangle memory is when I was at uni we did a module in year uh two where we basically had to like

Speaker: write our own kind of musical and like the thing was it had to be a musical parody and what my group did which I'm very proud of I think it was so funny was we did Dragons Down the musical where musicals were auditioning to get funding to be musicals so I love that

Speaker: And we did like gay or European from Legally Blonde, but it was like, oh, I think it was like Cats or West Side Story.

Speaker: And it was like competing things.

Speaker: And then we did Cell Block Tango and we had four musicals and we rewrote the lyrics so that they were like competing.

Speaker: And in South Park Tango, I was representing the musical Cats and I came on and I just pretended to be a cat for the entire song to the point where like there was a point where during like my solo bit where I just put down a saucer of milk and just lapped it from the floor.

Speaker: It was like just me pretending to be a cat.

Speaker: And it was so stupid.

Speaker: And I thought it was so we all thought it was so funny.

Speaker: But we were like, they're just not going to enjoy that.

Speaker: I got an A plus for that.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: They were like, that was inspired.

Speaker: I was like, I mean, it just felt like I was drinking milk from the floor, but sure.

Speaker: well candor and ebb we all love them um we have so much to cover on this episode because chicago is such a beast um so what we're gonna do much like our son time is we're gonna do a deep dive on the kind of beloved liza minnelli loving duo uh later on in the year so we'll have a full episode kind of dedicated to them so chicago the musical as you might guess girls oh

Speaker: It's based in Chicago.

Speaker: We are... What?

Speaker: We're in the jazz age of the 1920s and 30s, and the show is actually based on a 1926 play, also called Chicago, written by journalist-turned-playwright Maureen Dallas Watkins.

Speaker: The jazz era was born out of the US prohibition, where there was essentially a constitutional ban on the production, importation, transportation, and sale of alcoholic beverages from 1920 to 1933.

Speaker: Also, I don't want to be this person, but I don't know what I would do if I could not have a glass of wine.

Speaker: So during the 1920s, what happened because of this ban on alcohol, loads of criminal gangs essentially took over the control and sale of alcohol.

Speaker: Because obviously people like me were still interested in having a little boogie and having a little glass of vino.

Speaker: So this meant that gangsters like Al Capone basically found ways to kind of secretly trade and sell booze.

Speaker: And one of the sneaky ways they found was the creation of speakeasies, which were these kind of fun secret bars.

Speaker: I'm sure people in America are like, they weren't fun.

Speaker: They were criminal hobbits, but.

Speaker: I think I've got in my in my mind I grew up with like Bugsy Malone so I'm like it's a fun speakeasy.

Speaker: Actually it was very dark and very twisted.

Speaker: Bugsy Malone is dark.

Speaker: So yeah so these speakeasies were basically secret bars where people could come to kind of drink have a little boogie and meet their friend and in addition to kind of posting alcohol they were also a hotbed for entertainment and they had swing bands that played kind of popular music and show tunes and

Speaker: And they had my favorite, the rebellious flapper girls.

Speaker: So I'm sure we all know about flapper girls, but in case you don't, these gals were essentially modern ladies who rejected the kind of modesty of the Victorian era, which is obviously just the last century.

Speaker: So they lost the kind of tight fitting corsets and long hair in favor of these kind of short, sleek haircuts, little pin curls.

Speaker: And they wore these kind of short, frilly dresses that flapped around so they could kind of easily dance and smoke and flirt.

Speaker: Essentially, a speakeasy is like a hedonistic dream.

Speaker: It's secret bars with passcodes, it's illegal drinking, it's hot gangsters, and it's kind of like sexy women dancing around in flapper dresses.

Speaker: So let's jump to 1924.

Speaker: A lady called Maureen is a badass independent woman and she begins working at the esteemed newspaper when she's quite young, the Chicago Tribune.

Speaker: She works there for eight months only and during that time she covered 50 stories.

Speaker: Very, very interesting.

Speaker: But two of the biggest stories that she covered were the two biggest crime stories of the jazz era.

Speaker: We have the murders committed by Belva Gaitner and Beulah Sheriff Annan.

Speaker: Two so-called jazz baby murderers.

Speaker: So if you don't know what jazz baby is, one, it's a number that Carol Channing does in Thoroughly Modern Millie that's really cute.

Speaker: It's also just a kind of a name for these women who frequented these kind of speakeasy, who's basically, you know, it's kind of a nasty term who engaged in this kind of so-called promiscuity and flirty behavior.

Speaker: It's now been resurrected as a term for just these women who were essentially involved in the jazz culture.

Speaker: So Gartner, she was accused of murdering her lover, Walter Law, who was like a married father that she was having an affair with.

Speaker: And Annan was accused of murdering her lover, Harry Calsted, who she was having an affair with.

Speaker: Maureen basically reported on the two women from the crimes being committed all the way up to the trials.

Speaker: And she really got like underneath the skin of the sensationalized kind of true crime cult that followed the two women.

Speaker: And she argued that

Speaker: that the woman had been corrupted by the Jats baby lifestyle, men and alcohol.

Speaker: Her reporting kind of referenced their beauty and the subsequent kind of public fascination with the cases.

Speaker: And she was the first to kind of refer to Inan as the beauty of the cell block and Gertner as the most stylish of murderess Roe, which is just great reporting.

Speaker: So she covered these stories for months, competing with other reporters and newspapers to get the inside scoops until both of the women's trials were completed.

Speaker: So shock horror, both women acquitted of their crimes just days apart by the Cook County Sheriff's Department.

Speaker: I mean, imagine being alive at that time and you've got two jazz baby murderers and then they're both acquitted a couple days apart.

Speaker: Crazy.

Speaker: Maureen...

Speaker: basically felt that they were guilty and that they'd kind of gotten a free ride from cook county sheriff's office because they were so gorgeous and she felt that the kind of the public kind of backed them because they were seen as these like sexually liberated jazz babies and she felt like they kind of ignored the violence of their crimes um

Speaker: because they were women and at the time hanging was of course the punishment for convicted murders and a lot of the public Anne Reyn herself kind of thought well they've just gotten away with it because the kind of sheriff's department don't want to be seen to hang young women

Speaker: So they're both found not guilty and they're kind of stars within their own rights.

Speaker: And then what happens?

Speaker: Another murder.

Speaker: This time by two guys, Leopold and Loeb.

Speaker: Super interesting story.

Speaker: We don't have time to get into it now, but basically about two college students who were like obsessed with Nietzsche and decided that Nietzsche had this idea of the Ubermen.

Speaker: Nietzsche?

Speaker: I don't know what that is.

Speaker: The philosopher, the German philosopher?

Speaker: I'm sorry, I don't know what that is.

Speaker: Oh my god, okay, well, if you don't know about Nietzsche, get to know.

Speaker: He's super interesting.

Speaker: He's kind of like this German philosopher who, they all call him a communist, he wasn't really a communist, but he kind of explored the idea of nihilism.

Speaker: um but he's misunderstood a lot of the time like so he's I know the famous quote like if you stare into the abyss long enough the abyss stares back kind of thing and his like one of his most famous ideas is the idea of the uberman um and I'm not gonna get into the uberman because it's

Speaker: I've got a book in me one day about the Obermann and the misunderstanding of the idea.

Speaker: But basically, it's his idea that society will eventually evolve past the kind of rigid morality of Christian values and find their own set of values that are rooted in like love and community.

Speaker: But what is what Leopold and Loeb did was kind of misappropriate this to say like,

Speaker: we are a race of this is just completely misunderstood it that we're like a race of men who can are so evolved past other people that we can just do what we want which is completely not what Nietzsche said so they were like well if we do what we want we're gonna murder someone wonderful thanks for that Leopold and so that's like one of the biggest true crime cases like of the 1930s and essentially days after both women were acquitted the public who were like obsessed with

Speaker: the jazz baby story were like oh we're no longer interested in that we're interested in leopold low they just didn't care anymore and maureen was so obsessed by that how much the uh public had been caught up in this story and glorified these two women and then had like subsequently just been like oh we've moved on to the next thing is boring and she was like i'm gonna write a play

Speaker: So she decides to turn the story of Annan Gairtner into a play and the first draft is originally called The Brave Little Women and it was written as part of a class assignment by the playwright George Pierce Baker for his very very famous 47 workshop course.

Speaker: So within the play the accused murderess Beulah Sheriff Annan becomes the character Roxy Hart, her betrayed husband Albert Annan becomes Amos Hart and Velvet Gairtner becomes Thelma Kelly.

Speaker: The lawyer for both of the women's cases, William Scott Stewart and W.W.

Speaker: O'Brien, became the composite character, Billy Flynn.

Speaker: And the rival reporters that Maureen had competed against whilst she was at the Chicago Tribune for the kind of big scoops were turned into the character, Mary Sunshine, who is this kind of sympathetic reporter who kind of becomes Belmont Roxy's manager later on.

Speaker: And also when the original production is revealed, is played as a woman all the way throughout, and then it's revealed she's a man.

Speaker: so the play was a huge success it opened on broadway on the 30th december 1926 and it ran for 172 performances before touring for two years with clark gable guys before he was famous this was just like a little stint that he did love that wow yeah he performed uh he was amos amos heart oh that's really interesting

Speaker: I know, a little Clarkie.

Speaker: Cecil B. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up, Mr. DeMille, produced a silent film adaption in 1927.

Speaker: And then another adaption called just Roxy Hart was made in 1942, starring Ginger Rogers as the title.

Speaker: Oh, queen.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: I can't.

Speaker: The Roxy Hart version, I will say, pretty loose adaption.

Speaker: They kind of dump all the other characters, focus in on Roxy, and Velma Kelly is like an unnamed murderess, which is just silly because it's like the best character ever.

Speaker: So, Maureen was a bit of a badass.

Speaker: She wrote over 20 plays in her career and she became like a young millionaire, which loved that for her at the time because I can't even imagine what a million is in 1940s money.

Speaker: But Chicago kind of remained her most successful work.

Speaker: Okay, go grab a glass of water if you need it.

Speaker: We're jumping to early 1960s.

Speaker: Glass of water.

Speaker: or a glass of wine depending if you're in a speakeasy or not yeah yeah exactly watch out for the caps so there's an incredible dancer and choreographer about hmm what's her name Gwen Burden she reads Chicago the play and she says hmm I've got an idea this would make a fucking sick musical and

Speaker: You know what?

Speaker: She was 100% right.

Speaker: So she says to her husband, who's her husband, I wonder, Bob Fosse.

Speaker: She suggests to her husband, look, this plays great.

Speaker: I think you should make a musical.

Speaker: We don't have time to get into it.

Speaker: Obviously, we all know that Gwen was just as talented, just as groundbreaking as Fosse, and he gets a lot of the credit.

Speaker: We will save that story for another time and we can go into the whole Fosse Burden issue.

Speaker: But we love you, Gwen Burden, and we're here for you.

Speaker: So, Maureen Watkins, basically Fosse goes to her and he's like, oh my god, love your work, babe.

Speaker: I want to do a show.

Speaker: And she refuses to sell the rights to him because she basically felt like because the play was such a success and she thought that they were guilty, that she was just playing into this trap of glorifying these women and kind of further amplifying them.

Speaker: Of course, that would go on to then become the kind of central conceit of Chicago, was the audience's role and public's role in sensationalizing criminals.

Speaker: Do you think that stopped Fosse?

Speaker: No.

Speaker: She dies.

Speaker: 1969.

Speaker: Immediately goes to her estate and he's like, sell me the rights.

Speaker: And they agree.

Speaker: So despite a Marine saying that she didn't want to, for some reason her estate sell the rights to him.

Speaker: Now this is important.

Speaker: They don't just sell the rights to Bob Fosse.

Speaker: They sell it specifically to

Speaker: To him, Gwen Burden and the producer, Richard Fryer.

Speaker: So I think it's important that Gwen Burden's in there because many like to kind of minimize her role.

Speaker: The estate sold the rights to her.

Speaker: So clearly she had, you know, the kind of general conception of the show was she was clearly quite heavily involved.

Speaker: Immediately, Fosse's like, I know who I want to write this, John Kander, Fred Ebb.

Speaker: And they began working on the score.

Speaker: They used the musical style and design of vaudeville and incorporated Brechtian forms to set the scene of the driving narrative of the show, which critic James Lev describes at the time as cynical and subversive, exploiting the American cultural mythologies in order to attack American celebrity culture.

Speaker: In essence, the show is a sassire of how our public obsession with show business, true crime, and infamy can make celebrities out of criminals.

Speaker: So Fred Ebb and Fosse would write the book together and Fosse, arguably alongside Burden's input, directed and choreographed the show with Gwen originating the role of Roxy Hart.

Speaker: It's very interesting that you say that they make celebrities out of criminals because we kind of do that today.

Speaker: Like it's... Oh my God, yeah.

Speaker: It's really... Yeah, it's really... Like who's that really awful guy who's like a misogynist and he was...

Speaker: He has like an Instagram page where it's literally like all about the fact that he hates- Andrew Tate.

Speaker: Andrew Tate.

Speaker: That's it.

Speaker: It reminds me of this, but like he's been made into this huge celebrity and it's like, why?

Speaker: It's just bizarre.

Speaker: Well, it's the whole like all publicity is good publicity at the end because like, it's like the whole reason about why you should just de-platform people instead of engaging like Katie Hopkins.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Like instead of replying to her and-

Speaker: you know getting riled up actually what you should do is just ignore her and block her because the more that you engage with her even if you are saying oh i think you're a terrible person you're just giving her a platform the algorithm comes back to her boosts her views all of it just feeds the machine but it's you know it's really hard to not get roped into that stuff that's why like this whole movement of like the

Speaker: media blackout on celebrities at the moment.

Speaker: It's like, it's kind of funny that it's taken us so long to realize like we as the consumers have the power in our hands.

Speaker: So like, if you don't like a celebrity and you don't want to see their content, like, yeah, just, just block them, babe.

Speaker: You actually don't need that.

Speaker: You can choose who you like idolize and who you, you put on your algorithm.

Speaker: So block away babies.

Speaker: If you don't like them a lot.

Speaker: Block away jazz babies.

Speaker: oh my god i'm gonna start saying that to people walk away jazz babies um so super quick on candor and ebb um they were a songwriting duo active from 1962 to 2004 and they were most famous for their musical stage plays cabaret chicago kiss the spider woman curtains and of course liza minnelli's tv special liza with a z

Speaker: and their film score for Martin Scorsese's 1977 movie which I think they then later turned into a musical New York, New York apparently a critical failure at the time John Kander was the composer and Fred Ebb was the lyricist so they've joined Chicago they're hot off the huge success of Cabaret in 1966 and they would kind of go on to become really big collaborators with Fosse who would of course direct the 1972 film adaption of Cabaret starring Lesa Maness

Speaker: Right, we're up to 1975.

Speaker: The show premiered on April 8th, 1975 as a Broadway tryout at the Forest Theatre in Philly before opening on Broadway on June 3rd, 1975 at the 46th Street Theatre, which is now known as the Richard Rogers Theatre.

Speaker: Fosse directed and choreographed the production and his signature kind of Fosse style has stayed with the show's legacy, infusing all of its revivals and inspiring the kind of pastiche and parody on Broadway, television and film.

Speaker: So the astonishing original cast includes Gwen Verdon as Roxy Hart, the Chita Rivera icon and frequent collaborator of Candor and Ebb as well, McKellie, Jerry Orbach as Billy Flynn, Barney Martin as Amos Hart, Mary McCarty as Matron Mama Morton, that's a lot of M's, and Michael Ohoni as Mary Sunshine.

Speaker: And am I right in thinking that Liza Minnelli took over because Gwen was ill?

Speaker: Babe, you are so right.

Speaker: So, we're in August 1975.

Speaker: Gwen Verdon, supposedly, I don't know how scientifically true this could be, gets nodes on her vocal folds because she inhales a feather during the finale number.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: No, no, no.

Speaker: That's not a thing.

Speaker: No, no, no.

Speaker: Her voice went and she went, oh, I inhaled a feather.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: Well, that's what baby Gwen says and I love that woman too.

Speaker: That's what happened.

Speaker: So she got nodules.

Speaker: Yeah, she got nodules and had to undergo surgery and she had a recovery time.

Speaker: And this is August 1975.

Speaker: The show is struggling at this moment.

Speaker: People don't get the fourth wall breaks.

Speaker: The critics don't really get the whole critique on celebrity culture.

Speaker: They don't like it.

Speaker: They think the show's cynical.

Speaker: It's also competing with a chorus line, which like sweeps the Tonys.

Speaker: I do love a chorus line.

Speaker: It can't even get the ticket sales.

Speaker: It's got mixed reviews and a meetup.

Speaker: And it's struggling to get people in the seats.

Speaker: So Liza Minnelli says, I'll take over as Roxy Hart, but you've not to tell anyone about it.

Speaker: So there's no media release that says Liza Minnelli to take over the role in two weeks.

Speaker: She says, no one can know until opening night.

Speaker: And it pays off.

Speaker: Imagine showing up.

Speaker: Imagine showing up to the theatre, not knowing, and then being like, that's a lot of an alley.

Speaker: I think I'd pass out.

Speaker: I'd literally pass out.

Speaker: People did.

Speaker: People did.

Speaker: I'm sure.

Speaker: People died.

Speaker: People died.

Speaker: So she basically, she does one week of rehearsals and then she goes in.

Speaker: No one knows.

Speaker: And she just pops up.

Speaker: This reignites.

Speaker: Like people love the show now.

Speaker: So it's getting like the critics are like, maybe it's okay.

Speaker: It still has a pretty mixed review over the run, but people are interested.

Speaker: There's bums in seats.

Speaker: It wins no Tonys.

Speaker: There's nothing, nothing going on for it.

Speaker: And of course, Gwen Verdon comes back.

Speaker: And of course, people do love her in that role as well.

Speaker: But I think the excitement of Minnelli really like popped things off.

Speaker: Of course, we know that there was a film adaption starring Miss Catherine Zeta-Jones in 2002, which was directed by Rob Marshall and kind of received critical acclaim and it won the Oscar for Best Picture.

Speaker: But the show was also famously internationally revived and toured.

Speaker: And the 1996 revival holds the record for the longest running musical revival and the second longest running musical on Broadway.

Speaker: So I've got two quick quiz questions for you gals.

Speaker: One, which one is the longest running musical on Broadway?

Speaker: So Chicago is the second longest running.

Speaker: Which one has the top spot?

Speaker: Oh, God, that's really hard.

Speaker: I think I've got it.

Speaker: On Broadway?

Speaker: On Broadway.

Speaker: I'm going to give you a countdown.

Speaker: three two one cats cabaret phantom of the opera guys really and yeah well they have the specially built phantom of the opera i'm a phantom of the opera cats i love that you said cats that's so funny cats no cats cats was one of the longest running shows on broadway

Speaker: Weber is like well known for having a long running shows.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Cats was one of the longest running.

Speaker: It was as of.

Speaker: It's American audiences, babe.

Speaker: They love that.

Speaker: They love people who pretend to be cats.

Speaker: They love it.

Speaker: Eat it up.

Speaker: But yeah, so they built like a special theater just for Phantom and Phantom only closed, I think a couple of years ago.

Speaker: Like that ran for a long, long time.

Speaker: So second question then.

Speaker: The 1996 revival is still ongoing as of today.

Speaker: So it's never closed since 1996.

Speaker: Obviously, a little pause during COVID.

Speaker: I'd like you to tell me how many performances you guys think it has played in that time.

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: I hate maths questions.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: I'll take a ballpark figure.

Speaker: And this figure that I've got is accurate as of May 12th, 2024.

Speaker: Since 1995, you said?

Speaker: 1996.

Speaker: 1996?

Speaker: Well, that changes everything.

Speaker: That's 28 years.

Speaker: I'm going to guess at maybe like 500 performances a year.

Speaker: I'm going to say 10,000.

Speaker: Oh, now I think I'm only too low.

Speaker: I'm going to say 7,000.

Speaker: Casey, well done.

Speaker: It's 10,785 performances.

Speaker: That was such quick math.

Speaker: Oh my gosh.

Speaker: Very, very impressive.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And how is this for a little fun fact?

Speaker: Anne Reinking, who basically was cast as a replacement Roxy Hart in the original 1975 production, would actually go on to choreograph the 1996 revival.

Speaker: And she revived her role as Roxy again.

Speaker: She's such a queen.

Speaker: I love her in Annie.

Speaker: She's so funny.

Speaker: We got Annie.

Speaker: That's really good.

Speaker: So despite the original show not winning any Tonys and having mixed reviews, the 1996 revival went on to win six Tony Awards, including Best Revival, Best Leading Actor and Actress Awards, Best Lighting Design, Best Direction, and Best Choreography.

Speaker: Thank you, Anne Ranking.

Speaker: So, moving on to the actual plot of Chicago.

Speaker: This is kind of your spoiler alert now, so if you don't want to hear the plot, maybe just skip ahead, but also if you haven't watched Chicago, what have you been doing with your life?

Speaker: Because it's a brilliant musical.

Speaker: So I'm gonna open on Act One.

Speaker: We open on a nightclub singer, Velma Kelly, who welcomes the audience with the classic song that everyone knows and loves, All That Jazz, which is just such an iconic song.

Speaker: I mean, it's, yeah, it's brilliant.

Speaker: It's probably the most famous song from the show.

Speaker: I think it's like the one that most people would know.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's like, it's definitely had that, you know how like the Shirley Bassey number from Sweet Charity, I can't even remember the name.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Big Spender.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: Big Spender.

Speaker: You know how that's crossed over into the public sphere?

Speaker: I would say all that jazz is definitely like... 100%.

Speaker: Everyone knows that song.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So that's like, they open pretty strong.

Speaker: So they open with that number and then kind of overlapping with this kind of opening scene, they set the scene.

Speaker: And I didn't know this, but very specifically, apparently it's set on the 14th of February in 1928, which I didn't know.

Speaker: It's set on Valentine's Day, which is good to know.

Speaker: And it's set in the bedroom of the chorus girl, Roxy Hart, who's the other kind of lead.

Speaker: So we have Roxy and Velma, who we're both introduced to straight away.

Speaker: And Roxy basically murders Fred Casely, who she's been having an affair with, because Fred is wanting to break off the affair.

Speaker: And so she murders him.

Speaker: So obviously that then sets the scene, the audience know what's happened.

Speaker: Roxy's husband, Amos, then enters and Roxy convinces him that the dead body was actually a burglar.

Speaker: And Amos is like, don't worry, I'll take the blame.

Speaker: The police then show up and the police actually recognise the body and they're like, oh, hang on a minute, that's Fred Caisley.

Speaker: Amos then realises that Roxy lied to him and Roxy is like, okay, I murdered him.

Speaker: I'll put my hands up.

Speaker: I did it.

Speaker: So that's kind of like, that all happens right at the very, very beginning.

Speaker: Roxy is then sent to a women's block in the Cook County Jail, where she meets the other women who have also killed their lovers.

Speaker: And they sing the absolutely brilliant song, Cell Block Tango.

Speaker: Any MT kids listening to this, you've probably done a dance to this song many times.

Speaker: When they were like, we're going to teach you how to dance Fosse, they probably picked this song.

Speaker: Oh my God, yeah.

Speaker: 100% did.

Speaker: I remember doing this and being like, I'm so fussy.

Speaker: Terrible.

Speaker: It's that or Bye Bye Blackbird.

Speaker: Oh, God.

Speaker: The dodgy like jazz shoes, the dodgy hands.

Speaker: It's just like, oh, God.

Speaker: Those horrible little bowler hats.

Speaker: We had to have a hat.

Speaker: We did Bye Bye Blackbird and we had to have little bowler hats.

Speaker: And it was...

Speaker: Did you also have a chair?

Speaker: I feel like everyone had to have a chair at some point.

Speaker: Oh my god, yeah, those classic Fosse chairs.

Speaker: Oh my god.

Speaker: We did a group before so we didn't have chairs, but we did have little hats and little cat shoes.

Speaker: Little hats and little chairs.

Speaker: little tiny hats um i would love to see that um so yeah so then we enter cell block tango amazing song if you never heard it put it on right now um and then we kind of meet amongst the inmates we meet velma kelly who is you probably recognize the name we met earlier who sang all that jazz and she is basically like a vaudevillian nightclub singer

Speaker: she then admits that she was involved in the killing of her sister and husband after catching them having sex together which I completely forgot that happened but yeah her sister had sex with her husband but then she still did

Speaker: Number 17.

Speaker: Number 17.

Speaker: But then she still denies the murder because she says that she blacked out, which again, I forgot that she says that.

Speaker: We then meet the character Matron Mama Morton, lots of M's, who is kind of, she kind of governs the cell.

Speaker: That's kind of the best way to describe it, I guess.

Speaker: Who is acting as Velma's agent for when she returns to vaudeville later.

Speaker: Velma is not happy to see Roxy and it's because she thinks that Roxy is basically stealing her limelight.

Speaker: Subsequently, Velma's lawyer, Billy Flynn, who's a very important character, then becomes Roxy's lawyer, which obviously Velma's not too happy about.

Speaker: So Billy takes on Roxy's case just before realising that Amos doesn't have the funds to actually afford him, which again, I feel like it's kind of like a subplot that people kind of forget about.

Speaker: like halfway through no one really cares about the man in this show unfortunately the least interesting roles in this show I was reading an article and someone was like really mean about Amos they were like then this happened to Amos bracket who cares I was like oh my god honestly though honestly valid I was like bloody hell he's so whiny yeah he is quite whiny

Speaker: So, yeah, so then, so Billy takes on Roxy's case, and it turns into a media frenzy.

Speaker: And her press conference turns into, again, a very iconic moment.

Speaker: It turns into this, like, ventriloquist act.

Speaker: which again, I'm sure any MT kids have probably done that song.

Speaker: Is it?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Is it put down the gun?

Speaker: We both reach for the gun.

Speaker: That's it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Everyone's probably done.

Speaker: Me and Casey there, but we both reach for the gun.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, so that's another one that if you've been to an empty school, you've probably done before.

Speaker: I love that they do this, this like weird ventriloquist act where basically Billy then dictates this new version of the truth while Roxy mouths the words along.

Speaker: So they kind of make up this new story of how the murder happened.

Speaker: Then suddenly Roxy becomes the most famous popular celebrity in Chicago and she plans her big career in Bauderville.

Speaker: We then have this really lovely moment, which again I completely forgot about in the story, where Velma then asks Roxy if she'll do the double act with her because she used to do this double act with her sister back in the day before she got murdered, not by Velma, even though Velma was there.

Speaker: But Roxy rejects it.

Speaker: And then suddenly, Roxy's headline suddenly gets replaced with the latest crime of passion, which I guess is where you were coming in earlier, Rosa, about the fact that these- The appalled in love.

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: So then that gets replaced by the latest crime.

Speaker: And Roxy then has the really great idea that she's going to be pregnant in prison because she thinks it's going to boost her publicity.

Speaker: And then that is the end of act one.

Speaker: go grab an ice cream, have a nibble, and then welcome back.

Speaker: I'm sorry, who nibbles an ice cream?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: I wasn't going to say have a lick because that sounds a bit weird.

Speaker: Anyway, on that note, we open on Act Two, where we open on the fact that Roxy has managed to seduce a doctor into saying that Roxy is pregnant.

Speaker: And she has a song where she basically happily sings about the fact that she has a future with this unborn child.

Speaker: Very, very odd.

Speaker: Amos then, poor Amos, he has kind of a moment where he's like, oh, I'm feeling really paternal.

Speaker: And then Billy, the other kind of...

Speaker: irrelevant man in this story but again a very important part of the story he finds he finds a hole in Roxy's story because he basically works out that Amos hadn't had sex with Roxy within four months so she couldn't be pregnant with Amos's baby and it must be someone else's if she is pregnant and

Speaker: And there's this whole kind of thing where they kind of hope that Amos just basically divorces Roxy over it, and that by divorcing her, he'll look like the villain.

Speaker: But again, poor Amos, he doesn't do that, he stays with her.

Speaker: So we lead up to Roxy's big trial, and Roxy is upset at being treated like a common criminal.

Speaker: She doesn't feel like she's being treated like a proper celebrity.

Speaker: Even though she's a criminal, which I love.

Speaker: And in a heated argument, she fires Billy.

Speaker: And Billy basically kind of pre-warns her that her celebrity status is very, very fragile.

Speaker: And that she basically, I mean, this is quite morbid.

Speaker: Again, I kind of forgot this happens in the story.

Speaker: He basically says to her, like, you'd be just as famous if you were hanging by a noose.

Speaker: And I think there is a point in the story where Roxy finds out, right, about a woman who gets killed.

Speaker: It's the... Is she Hungarian, I think?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So she...

Speaker: gets hung but she's actually the only one that's innocent in the jail so oh yeah so i think that's what kind of that's what flips the switch in roxy because it's kind of like she's like well i know that i did it and that woman didn't and she's just been hung so i think that she shits herself a little bit then and that's when she completely like does a 180

Speaker: I was about to say, the trial date arrives and Roxy does a 360 or a 180, whatever you want to do.

Speaker: And she, you could do a half turn.

Speaker: Wouldn't a 360 be the same direction?

Speaker: Because a 180 is only a half, like half of a turn.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So if you're going from like one thing to the other, then you're doing a 180.

Speaker: So why do people say I do a 360?

Speaker: People get it wrong.

Speaker: I think people say what?

Speaker: Yeah, people get it wrong, basically.

Speaker: Oh, okay.

Speaker: Well, she did a 180.

Speaker: She didn't do a 360.

Speaker: As Dua Lipa says, did a 180.

Speaker: baby of course thank you i love that that's your reference well as jua leeper says of course jua leeper the person who knows everything julie peep says julie peep um so roxy does a full 180

Speaker: And she basically begs Billy to come back.

Speaker: So Billy says yes.

Speaker: He creates this false narrative that Amos is actually the father.

Speaker: And he makes up a new story about what happened the night of Fred's murder.

Speaker: Cut long story short, Roxy gets acquitted, which is great.

Speaker: And just as the verdict is announced, really ironic and even more sensational crime takes press and interest and Roxy's fame is diminished.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So again, it's like the girl just can't win.

Speaker: Billy leaves Roxy, admitting that he only really helped her for the money, which is quite sad.

Speaker: And Roxy is left upset at how her trial has ended without any fame.

Speaker: And she ends up admitting to Amos everything, that she isn't pregnant.

Speaker: And all the truth comes out, as it always does.

Speaker: And Amos leaves her.

Speaker: We then finish on the final scene, which is Roxy and Velma, who are now performing in a new act together.

Speaker: And they sing very bitterly about modern life.

Speaker: And it kind of is, it's a 360 on everything that's happened.

Speaker: They've done a full 360 because they've ended up exactly where they started.

Speaker: And the show basically ends with a very brief finale as Roxy and Velma thank their audience.

Speaker: And that's the show.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: So we're doing things a little bit differently this week for Chicago.

Speaker: Also, whenever I think of Chicago, I do always think of Calamity Jane saying Chicago.

Speaker: Chicago just flew into the windy city.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Classic.

Speaker: So instead of focusing in on a song this week, I wanted to talk to you guys a little bit about the book and the musical style of Chicago because it's kind of earth shattering.

Speaker: It's groundbreaking.

Speaker: It's a real Fosse.

Speaker: It's Fosse's Fosse.

Speaker: This is like his baby.

Speaker: So in preparation for this episode, I actually reread a chapter on Chicago from Scott Miller's book, Deconstructing Harold Hill.

Speaker: And basically, all of the kind of information analysis you're about to hear has largely been researched from that book.

Speaker: So the show, of course, is heavily inspired by the jazz music of the 1920s.

Speaker: But to fit in with a kind of Brechtian style of the show, it incorporates vaudeville pastiche to reflect the kind of satirical driving narrative of the show, which is this mock of celebrity culture and sensationalism within the media and the role of the public and indeed the audience in glorifying and amplifying criminals.

Speaker: So Fosse uses fourth wall breaks in Chicago and sets up each scene really interestingly, essentially as a vaudeville act, which kind of enables the audience to become unwilling participants, idolizing the murderesses because they see them as these kind of glorious, beautiful performers.

Speaker: And they also laugh at the morality of characters like Amos, who we all hate, and kind of easily ignore the violence behind the jazz hands.

Speaker: And then we realize at the end, all too late, that we've fallen foul to the trap of the Cook County judges and we've given these murderers a free pass, a soapbox and infamy just because we think they're kind of beautiful and they have mystique.

Speaker: So Fosse kind of by using this narrative and setting the show up as a series of vaudeville acts, he basically felt like he was pulling the curtain back on show business.

Speaker: and bearing the ugly truth behind the glitzing glamour, laying bare the immorality and corruption that he felt came with celebrity culture.

Speaker: You're like, Rosa, that's some great analysis, and you're really clever.

Speaker: Thank you.

Speaker: It's all Scott Miller.

Speaker: But what's vaudeville?

Speaker: Or what's vaudeville?

Speaker: You can say both.

Speaker: It's fine.

Speaker: To sum it up incredibly quickly, vaudeville.

Speaker: Vaudeville.

Speaker: To sum it up incredibly quickly, it's basically a style of variety show that was born at the end of the 19th century in France.

Speaker: And it took its roots from kind of British music hall and American variety shows.

Speaker: So what we now recognize as like the American form of vaudeville essentially is just a variety show.

Speaker: where they took performance styles from every possible genre and just smashed it into one show so where a variety show might just be a series of like singers or a series of dancers they said no we're having magicians we're gonna have acrobats we're gonna have dramatic monologues we're gonna have dancers we're gonna have musical acts we're gonna have comedians we're gonna have burlesque we're gonna have a lion

Speaker: So basically anything, they just threw it and populated it on the vaudeville stage.

Speaker: Vaudeville actually, when you go to the French translation, it actually means voice of the city.

Speaker: So, which I really love.

Speaker: I think that's such a nice, such a nice analogy.

Speaker: And the show was often kind of tinged with a bit of satire, a bit of tongue in cheek.

Speaker: and a hell of a lot of spectacle so vaudeville was like the prevailing american art form for years uh 60 years it had its reign people loved it and then the financial depression hit of the 1930s people couldn't afford to do uh these kind of lavish stage productions anymore

Speaker: And radio and television kind of took off.

Speaker: And what we now know as the kind of integrated musical with Showboat, Oklahoma, that took off and that kind of replaced vaudeville as the kind of prevailing form, performance that people wanted to go and see.

Speaker: So it kind of died a really ugly death.

Speaker: Basically, it was like one day in the 1930s, someone was like, vaudeville's out, bib.

Speaker: And it died.

Speaker: It's really, really sad.

Speaker: And Fosse was born in 1927.

Speaker: And although he kind of was born towards the end of Vaudeville and he necessarily wouldn't have seen shows or anything like that, he basically spent years working in like burlesque clubs.

Speaker: with ex-Vaudeville stars and it was kind of like sleazy, sleazy bars that they worked in.

Speaker: They were a bit washed up and this style completely, like he just, he was obsessed with it.

Speaker: He was obsessed with their cynicism towards show business because obviously basically their careers just like stopped and they got shoved off to the sleaze bars and he loved that kind of like that grit and glamour, if for lack of a better word.

Speaker: He basically loved like

Speaker: He loved shiny sequins with a bit of puke on them.

Speaker: Like he liked the edge and he liked the beauty.

Speaker: And that's definitely, it's like the smashing up of Brechtian styles and the kind of sleazy glamour that Fosse has become known for.

Speaker: Like it's all born out of these burlesque clubs.

Speaker: So how, I hear you say audience, stop shouting at me.

Speaker: Rosa, how does vaudeville influence the show musically and narratively?

Speaker: Well, I'll tell you.

Speaker: Basically,

Speaker: Candor and Eb, very clever, and Fosse, they basically take Sondheim's idea of content dictates form and they're like, okay, so this is a show about two ex-Vodville stars who are now washed up and they've been under arrest for a crime.

Speaker: So what they decide to do is, obviously that's the context for the show, let's use it as a narrative tool and let's use it as the form.

Speaker: So every single scene...

Speaker: in the show is set up as a different vaudeville act which means the numbers completely vary and that's why it's such a glitz and glamour show that's why we have tap numbers that's why we have lounge bar numbers that's why we have big fan numbers because it's meant to mimic the variety of a vaudeville show

Speaker: And each character's vocal style and kind of musical accompaniment for their solo songs is set within the style of a real vaudeville act and is based on a real vaudeville person, which I think is so cool.

Speaker: This is according to Mr. Fred F. He said he wrote the book in a vaudeville style because the characters were performers.

Speaker: Every musical moment in the show was loosely modeled on someone else.

Speaker: Roxy was Helen Morgan, who was a vaudeville torch singer, who also starred, just as an FYI, in Rodgers and Hammerstein's Showboat.

Speaker: So she had a bit of a career after vaudeville.

Speaker: Velma was based on Texas Gwinin, who I'm going to chat about a little bit later.

Speaker: Billy Flynn was on Ted Lewis, who was a band leader.

Speaker: Mama Morton was on Sophie Tucker, who was a brassy singer known for her kind of Mae West style, funny, sexual, risky numbers.

Speaker: Who was also nicknamed, which I just think is the best, Last of the Red Hot Mamas.

Speaker: which put that on my gravestone excuse me that's me literally love and John Cander also said the reason why the show was called a vaudeville act is because many of the songs we wrote are related to specific performers so there's tons of easter eggs I'm just going to go through super quick of the easter eggs in the show and the homages to the vaudeville characters that we see throughout the show so funny honey which is a song sang by Roxy

Speaker: is actually a pastiche of Helen Morgan's song Bill from the musical Showboat.

Speaker: Obviously, Showboat, part of it's set on a vaudeville-traveling showboat.

Speaker: So her number Bill is replicated in Funny Honey.

Speaker: Then Matron Mama Morton, she sings a raunchy number, the best number ever.

Speaker: When You're Good to Mama, which is a parody of Sophie Tucker, the last of the Red Hot Mamas number, you've got to see Mama every night.

Speaker: The tap number, where Roxy manipulates Amos into having to pay for her lawyer, is a conscious homage to the tappers that essentially peppered the vaudeville stages.

Speaker: Even Billy Flynn gets a little vaudeville number.

Speaker: So in his song, All I Care About Is Love, he sings in the style and kind of parody of the band leader, Ted Lewis, who used to begin his act by kind of saying to the audience,

Speaker: is everybody here?

Speaker: Is everybody ready?

Speaker: Which I think is really cute.

Speaker: So another homage is the character Mary Sunshine who's of course revealed at the end in the 1975 production to be a man in drag.

Speaker: That character is a parody of Julian Elton and Bert Savoy who were two drag queens well versed on the vaudeville stage.

Speaker: We both reached for the gun that you were talking about earlier, Flo.

Speaker: That's actually a reference to the ventriloquist sask scene on vaudeville stages.

Speaker: And obviously it has a kind of double entendre there because it's Velma performing a

Speaker: a version of events that perhaps is fictionalized using Billy as a mouthpiece.

Speaker: And then of course we have Ms.

Speaker: Velma Kelly herself, who acts as Flo was saying as our compare for the evening.

Speaker: So her opening number, her iconic opening number, All That Jazz is...

Speaker: Basically introducing the audience to say welcome to tonight's event.

Speaker: This is a vaudeville show and everyone that you see on stage is performing.

Speaker: Which is of course what Roxy and the other murderesses do when they're in court.

Speaker: They present this version of events and they present a version of themselves to the media.

Speaker: But she's actually based on Texas Gwinen, who's super cool.

Speaker: She was basically, she was born Mary Louise Cecilia Gwinen, best known as Texas, which is a much better name.

Speaker: And she was an actress, producer, and entrepreneur during the jazz age.

Speaker: Basically, she got caught up in like a weight loss scam and she decided to ditch her career as an entertainer.

Speaker: And she said, I'm going to form my own company, baby.

Speaker: And I'm going to manage my own speakeasies.

Speaker: So she ran these like speakeasy clubs during the prohibition era.

Speaker: And eventually she was arrested and charged for, because they were illegal to run, and she was famously acquitted during her trial.

Speaker: Girl boss.

Speaker: Layers, baby.

Speaker: Layers.

Speaker: Supporting women's rights and women's wrongs.

Speaker: I was literally going to say that.

Speaker: So, of course, Texas is a perfect character homage for our Velma Kelly.

Speaker: And in All That Jazz, perfect opening number, because it basically says, look, we're in the context of the jazz era.

Speaker: Everything you see on stage here is just a performance.

Speaker: And basically, according to Scott Miller, he kind of makes the point that not only is Velma our conduit for the fourth wall breaks, but she's also the link between the real and the performed.

Speaker: um the vaudeville and the pastiche and she's the one that takes the audience from the theater seats right to the back of the curtain and she closes it as well and she layers yeah layers layers um and really interestingly i'd never clocked this before thanks scott miller um the other characters aren't performers by trade they're housewives they're reporters they're lawyers they're prison guards belma is the ex vaudeville star she's always been a performer maybe

Speaker: So Velma knows the game.

Speaker: She is the one with the inside crack knowledge.

Speaker: The rest of the characters become performers by the nature of the context that they find themselves in.

Speaker: I think this is also evident in her one song, Velma Takes a Stand, where she basically talks quite openly about the kind of performativity aspect while she's giving her testimony.

Speaker: She says, look at little Belle, see her give him hell.

Speaker: When she turns on, ain't she doing grand?

Speaker: She's got him eating out the palm of her hand.

Speaker: So she knows, Velma's like, this whole thing is a rose, baby.

Speaker: eat it oh it's just so brilliant and it kind of replicates what happened to vaudeville in the same way that there was an untimely demise of vaudeville that one day it was just old news the exact same happens to velma kelly so it just makes it the perfect channel to tell our story

Speaker: So, on to the music in Chicago.

Speaker: And I couldn't not cover my favourite song of the entire show by my favourite character, Miss Velma Kelly.

Speaker: I Can't Do It Alone.

Speaker: Which, it is, I think, without a doubt, one of the hardest musical theatre songs to perform.

Speaker: I would not touch it with a barge pole.

Speaker: It is hefty.

Speaker: So if you don't know what it is, it's basically...

Speaker: a huge triple threat number.

Speaker: I say triple threat, probably quadruple threat because it is singing, acting, dancing, comedy.

Speaker: It is all thrown in there.

Speaker: So just to give you a bit of background about the song, if you're not familiar with it.

Speaker: So the song falls about halfway into the plot when Velma realises that Roxy is becoming a bigger celebrity than her.

Speaker: So Velma's kind of been hot shit in the prison.

Speaker: Everybody wants a piece of her...

Speaker: Everybody is obsessed with her and the crime and just her swanning about prison.

Speaker: And she's getting favours left, right and centre.

Speaker: So she is living at large.

Speaker: But as soon as Roxy comes in, it's literally a huge decline for her.

Speaker: Because then Roxy is kind of like the new young hot thing.

Speaker: And Velma's kind of pushed to the side.

Speaker: So people are focusing more on Roxy's case and in order to try and win back favour, she decides to try and entice Roxy into becoming a performing double act, much like Velma used to perform with her late sister.

Speaker: So she performs a full double act routine by herself,

Speaker: all singing, all dancing, full out performance to try and persuade Roxy that joining together will be better in the long run for them both.

Speaker: However, due to Velma's treatment of Roxy prior to the proposal and also Roxy's fame going straight to her head, she decided to reject the offer, which is humiliating to the already downtrodden Velma.

Speaker: Which I love a strong bitch character with a

Speaker: soft exterior it has to be said you love a strong bitch with a heart of gold I do I do she's a bit Midler girl she is so during the song Velma performs both her own parts and the parts that used to be performed by her sister Veronica

Speaker: She goes full out to the point of extreme exhaustion.

Speaker: So like literally when actresses are performing this, I don't know whether it's a stylistic choice or whether genuinely it just beats the shit out of you vocally and physically that you are literally left going like at the end of each sort of

Speaker: but you know verse it is hefty thinking about it i think it definitely is a stylistic choice i think obviously the actresses probably are extremely exhausted during this number but it it's really adds a layer of desperation and i think it's the first time we really see this character crack so the tough exterior that velma's kind of had up she's been this untouchable person up until now she won't even bother speaking to roxy she's like running shit getting shit done

Speaker: As soon as that starts to slip and she doesn't have anybody looking up to her, the veil kind of drops and we see that she's actually really insecure.

Speaker: And this is why I think Chicago is quite sad because it's all about validation.

Speaker: I think these women just want to be wanted.

Speaker: And that's why I love it.

Speaker: Which, well, not completely off topic, but I went to see this on Broadway in 2018.

Speaker: Really bad now.

Speaker: I can't remember the actress's names who...

Speaker: were Roxy and Velma, but they were older.

Speaker: They were like, like late forties, fifties.

Speaker: I like it when they do that personally.

Speaker: I do.

Speaker: I think it added, I mean, it's like when they cast Sally Bowles as like a 45 year old.

Speaker: I'm like, yeah, she's meant to be like an agent.

Speaker: It adds that layer of like, it adds, it's like in company where changing Bobby to a woman just makes so much sense.

Speaker: That production killed me.

Speaker: That actually killed me, that production.

Speaker: It's just, it adds such a new layer of, you know what?

Speaker: Actually, women are so pressured with these things.

Speaker: So why wasn't Bobby a woman from the beginning?

Speaker: Like what, what 30, sorry for the rant, but what like mid thirties man is pressured into settling down and getting on with life?

Speaker: yeah I well I think at the time maybe at the time yeah I mean it's what 1970 something that came out so but I think Sondheim himself was like yeah it aged badly because also clock that another 10 years do you know what I mean like 40 maybe yeah exactly that's what yeah times moved on it's like oh my god 35 pick out a casket

Speaker: you know what I mean yeah I think having Velma and Roxy be older it's sort of sadder because it's kind of like oh we are older and we are really desperate and this is not happening for us and it kind of just yeah I mean it's society that's kind of put this thing on women in that women are sad when they age but it is that it has an extra layer of that desperation to it

Speaker: So throughout the song, there are themes of ambition, survival, and manipulation.

Speaker: So she's working for it, girl.

Speaker: So Velma's plea to Roxy is not just about forming a partnership, but also about Velma's struggle to adapt and survive in a world that has moved on without her.

Speaker: Oh my god, that's so sad.

Speaker: I know, poor baby.

Speaker: She may be a manipulative, narcissistic murderer, but... My girl.

Speaker: My girl.

Speaker: What's that thing that you both said?

Speaker: We back women and we... What was the thing you just said?

Speaker: We support women's rights but also women's wrongs.

Speaker: That is a key example.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: Because do you know what?

Speaker: She just wants to be loved.

Speaker: Stop.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: She just wants people to like her and think she's great and think she's hot shit.

Speaker: And she's not really... I think you're hot shit.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: are you saying that to Casey or I don't know I'm saying it to all women all women you are hot shit this is slowly becoming like drunk bathroom like at the club I love you and I need to know that literally met you two minutes ago nothing wrong in your life ever he's the asshole he's the asshole

Speaker: Yeah, so it's about her struggle to adapt and survive in a world that has moved on without her, which always circles back to the lyrics, but I simply cannot do it alone.

Speaker: So she is really letting herself slip here, because up until this point, that is not a thing you would think would come out of this character's mouth.

Speaker: She is

Speaker: absolutely like all about me center stage i can do it by myself and now she is going you know what i really can't please help um so throughout the song it's a comedic song and it is performed in such a vaudeville style i think pretty much every vaudeville style comes into this

Speaker: So literally out of everything.

Speaker: So the parts where she's singing kind of like the first I'd do, do, do, do.

Speaker: Then she'd like, it's all kind of tongue in cheek humor.

Speaker: And she's like sort of mimicking herself with the, she'd say, what's your sister like?

Speaker: I'd say, man.

Speaker: So it's that kind of interaction with the audience and like comedy, but then also go straight into sort of like sexy dancing tap.

Speaker: jazz style dancing acting funny like comedic bits it is all shoved in there so it's actually quite sad when we sort of see a character breaking down like it actually feels like a breakdown as much it is a plea it is very much this woman is having a breakdown right now because she is grasping at straws um i always feel really bad you know the bit in the middle where she's like oh so what do you say and roxy just goes

Speaker: Which, great, really funny, but also... That's so rude.

Speaker: That is like literally shitting on her parade.

Speaker: Also, let's pick a time, babe.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You want to pick your moment?

Speaker: I feel like you guys are really on the side of Velma versus Roxy.

Speaker: She can do no wrong.

Speaker: No, Roxy is a bit annoying though.

Speaker: It is annoying vibes.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I fear.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I fear.

Speaker: Is she a little bit like, you know, like Sandy in Grease?

Speaker: Yeah, honestly.

Speaker: I get it.

Speaker: But then you're like, I just want to watch Rizzo to be honest.

Speaker: I can't tell you the only reason why I'm really here.

Speaker: Yeah, it's so true.

Speaker: I think they have... I think the reason they don't get on is because they are inherently very, very similar.

Speaker: Like, they... And jealousy.

Speaker: Which is annoying, because I hate seeing women betrayed as being, like, jealousy.

Speaker: Because, again, it's another very, like, misogynistic trait to be, like, women can't support women.

Speaker: But, again, like, I guess it was written...

Speaker: back in that time.

Speaker: Yeah, and I just think that they are both so set on, like, I am going to be number one, that there is no room for anybody else, which I think is kind of nice where it comes to the end and they do the Hot Honey Rag together and they've kind of joined forces and actually it's even better because Hot Honey Rag, what an amazing piece of performance.

Speaker: Yeah, so I think...

Speaker: At this point in time, they are both... I mean, actually, Velma's not, but Roxy is kind of now turned into Velma in that, you know what?

Speaker: I am now hot shit.

Speaker: You're not.

Speaker: So I'm going to treat you how you treated me.

Speaker: So really, she isn't doing anything wrong, but I just prefer Velma.

Speaker: So the song is very dynamic and exciting.

Speaker: It's clearly there to represent the urgency and desperation for this partnership.

Speaker: Like I said, you're going from...

Speaker: tongue-in-cheek, little audience interaction, comedy bits, dancing bits, like vocals, standouts.

Speaker: It is hefty.

Speaker: It is a big number.

Speaker: And I just think if you can perform it and perform it well, it is amazing.

Speaker: Because I just think it's so impressive.

Speaker: I can't stress that enough.

Speaker: It is an impressive number.

Speaker: It's a little bit like that song in a chorus line that Cassie sings, Music in the Mirror.

Speaker: I remember the first time I watched that, I was actually, I couldn't stop crying.

Speaker: So I was like, this is probably the best thing I've ever seen in my whole life.

Speaker: Honestly, I was obsessed with the chorus line when I went to go see it, like for the first time.

Speaker: And it is very much of that vibe where you see someone who's so physically athletic, such an incredible voice, amazing actor, like, and yeah, it is just like one of those things that you're like, hats off to whoever can do that.

Speaker: Because it is just like incredible to watch.

Speaker: Okay, now on to some stage door secrets, which some of these, mainly the last segment of this, is incredibly juicy.

Speaker: And I can't wait to see some of your reactions.

Speaker: so on to just a few fun facts so Chicago grossed 300 million on a budget of 45 million this is the film now that's effing crazy for a musical as well yeah it literally everybody ate that shit up it was like

Speaker: number one in the box office everybody was like this is amazing and it's do you know what so i mean people love that movie yeah it was like the sweden todd film where it was like the public got on board with yeah i feel like they were also really forgetting the fact that renee zellweger was in it like big cast yeah and she was she was hot shit at the time as well because of bridget jones

Speaker: yeah bit of a stunt cast at the point at that time because Renee Zellweger didn't get cast until quite late in the production she was like one of the last people to be cast um interestingly Catherine Zeta-Jones was originally Roxy I did not know that yeah that doesn't work no the woman has too much of a presence yeah she does I think for Roxy too much of a command of space as much as Roxy does kind of become like Velma number two towards it I think she needs to start off as a wet wipe like

Speaker: I wouldn't look at Catherine Zeta-Jones as like, I mean, I'm just picturing her.

Speaker: You wouldn't cast her as Sandy.

Speaker: No, I wouldn't look at her and go, you're not walking into a room and like people are just ignoring you.

Speaker: Like a wallflower.

Speaker: Yeah, you're not a wallflower.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: But yeah, the original cast is wild.

Speaker: So yeah, people ate Chicago up.

Speaker: The first, it was the first movie to win an Oscar for best motion picture since Oliver...

Speaker: And that was in 1968.

Speaker: So Oliver won for Best Motion Picture in 1968 and then Chicago won in 2002.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: Christine C. Jones performed all of her own dancing, including tap, as did Richard Gere.

Speaker: Oh my god, I'm such a Richard Gere fan.

Speaker: I really hope that, I actually don't know tons about him, so I'm also saying that with a caveat that people are like, by the way, he's a really bad person.

Speaker: I just love that man.

Speaker: I just think he's really adorable.

Speaker: Yeah, I'm such a gearhead.

Speaker: When I watch Pretty Women, I'm like, yeah, I get it.

Speaker: I know he's 50, but I get it.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Also, did not know this, Catherine Zeta-Jones was pregnant during filming.

Speaker: I did know that.

Speaker: I mean, that's insanity.

Speaker: And she kept it to herself for the first few weeks because she was like, if I get kicked off, I'm going to be so mad.

Speaker: But yeah, another thing is that Rob Marshall wanted Catherine Zeta-Jones to kind of support her natural hair.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Maybe he just liked it.

Speaker: Interesting choice.

Speaker: But Cesar J really had to battle for that bob.

Speaker: She was like, no.

Speaker: Battle for that bob.

Speaker: She battled for that bob.

Speaker: Because Rob Marshall was like, oh, no, I think it's kind of signature.

Speaker: Your long hair is like, everyone's going to recognize it.

Speaker: You're going to look really nice.

Speaker: It's very chic.

Speaker: And Catherine Cetha Jones was like, that is not what Velma Kelly would have had her hair like.

Speaker: She's a flapper girl, baby.

Speaker: Yeah, so she was like, she fought for the Bob.

Speaker: CZJ fought for the Bob and the Bob won.

Speaker: Love that.

Speaker: I fought for the Bob and the Bob won.

Speaker: Oh, another juicy bit of info, which is really annoying that I didn't know this because I feel like it's so obvious after I watched it again.

Speaker: So in the beginning of the scene when Matron Mama Morton is introduced to the new inmates, Roxy Hart has a brief conversation with a woman in the cell.

Speaker: So I don't know if you remember at the beginning of the film where she's like an old lady smoking a cigarette and she's like, you ever had Morton before?

Speaker: And Roxy's like, oh, no, sorry.

Speaker: And she's like, oh, she's fine, as long as you keep her happy.

Speaker: That woman is Chita Rivera.

Speaker: Oh, my God.

Speaker: I've never clocked that.

Speaker: The original Velma Kelly.

Speaker: So they had her as like a little cameo in the beginning of the film.

Speaker: Oh, my God.

Speaker: Loved me too.

Speaker: Now, onto my favorite bit, because I have a list.

Speaker: Oh, I can't wait.

Speaker: These are some of the original casting choices.

Speaker: So when Catherine Zeta-Jones was in talks for Roxy, who do you think they had opposite her to play Velma?

Speaker: Go on, spill the tea.

Speaker: Who is it?

Speaker: Madonna.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: Madonna was set to play.

Speaker: I think I haven't seen that, though.

Speaker: Oh, no.

Speaker: I think that would have been...

Speaker: I think it would have been great.

Speaker: She's got such a big... I love Madonna, don't get me wrong, but she's got a big presence, a bit like Catherine Zeta-Jones, that I just... Yeah, but she was going to be playing Velma.

Speaker: Oh, I thought she was supposed to be playing Roxy.

Speaker: No, so this was when Catherine Zeta-Jones was in talks for Roxy.

Speaker: She was going to be playing opposite Madonna.

Speaker: Oh, wow.

Speaker: Which I...

Speaker: kind of would have no i think nobody can do it as good as katherine zeta jones she owns that role she really like fought for it and kind of owned it but i mean i wasn't the biggest fan of madonna and evita so but i just think madonna is i just think madonna is such a velma kelly in general like yeah i think she is very hang like clinging on to like her past successes and

Speaker: Because, sorry, I'm just going to say it.

Speaker: She is.

Speaker: I love Madonna.

Speaker: I'm a Madonna girly.

Speaker: Her new music is shocking.

Speaker: I love Madonna.

Speaker: Madonna as a woman and as an artist.

Speaker: I don't care for her as a musician.

Speaker: Oh, no, no, no.

Speaker: I do think her old stuff was pretty boppy.

Speaker: I love all of her.

Speaker: Oh, no.

Speaker: Yeah, sorry.

Speaker: Like, Celebration.

Speaker: That album's fucking great.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But I think she is kind of like, oh, I'm still the it girl.

Speaker: And it's kind of like, no.

Speaker: Oh, no.

Speaker: So I'm just going to run through this list because there is so much.

Speaker: Obviously, it was a massive, massive.

Speaker: It had a huge 45 million.

Speaker: It's quite a huge budget.

Speaker: So I feel like they really like.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: It must have taken ages to kind of get the casting right.

Speaker: So they ran through some names.

Speaker: Some people that were in talks were Jennifer Aniston was considered for Roxy.

Speaker: no way I'm like get her out of the limelight now I need to see this but I don't know if Jennifer Aniston can sing I don't care I'd still watch it I'd still watch it also this next one which I think would have been stunning Christina Applegate from Roxy I think she would have been I think she's such a fossey girl

Speaker: Well, yeah, hello, Sweet Charity, when she was in that revival.

Speaker: That girl is, I mean, I love Christina Applegate as a human being.

Speaker: I love her as a performer.

Speaker: I love her in Dead to Me.

Speaker: I love her in any way, shape, or form I can get Christina Applegate.

Speaker: Yeah, and I'm just like, that would have been incredible.

Speaker: Drew Barrymore for Roxy as well.

Speaker: I can vaguely see that.

Speaker: Kathy Bates for Mama Morton.

Speaker: Iconic.

Speaker: Why didn't that happen?

Speaker: Incredible.

Speaker: Sandra Bullock for Roxy.

Speaker: That was also considered at one point.

Speaker: Possibly.

Speaker: Kristen Chenoweth for Mary Sunshine.

Speaker: Oh, I kind of would have loved.

Speaker: Yeah, how cute.

Speaker: Thank you.

Speaker: Cute.

Speaker: Cher for Mama Morton.

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: Well, done and dusted.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: I'd be watching that right now.

Speaker: Which, to be fair, I feel like she kind of embodies that in burlesque anyway.

Speaker: I feel like that is such a mama role.

Speaker: Yeah, she...

Speaker: She absolutely has her Fosse turn.

Speaker: Well, what about Cher for Velma?

Speaker: Like, she would kind of be pretty sick.

Speaker: Cher in 1975 as Velma.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: That would have eaten up.

Speaker: Like, that would have been incredible.

Speaker: This one is a bit out there.

Speaker: This was for the original 70s.

Speaker: Like, they were going to make a film in the 70s.

Speaker: And then it never happened.

Speaker: So it was going to be a musical film in the 70s.

Speaker: It just never happened.

Speaker: It kind of fizzled out.

Speaker: but Goldie Hawn was signed on to take part in that as Roxy.

Speaker: Shut up.

Speaker: Incredible.

Speaker: I love me some Goldie Hawn.

Speaker: I mean, I love that the podcast has just descended into you naming our favourite people.

Speaker: It's actually you just naming women and us being like, we love women.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Love it.

Speaker: This one would have blew my socks off because obsessed.

Speaker: Michelle Pfeiffer as Roxy Hart.

Speaker: I've actually heard that fact before and yeah, why didn't it happen?

Speaker: I love Michelle Pfeiffer.

Speaker: Love of my life.

Speaker: Catwoman?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Gay Awakening for me, honestly.

Speaker: And last two, because I saved these ones to last specifically.

Speaker: Bette Midler was offered the role of Roxy Velma or Mama Morton.

Speaker: They said, take any.

Speaker: And she said, none.

Speaker: Oh my God.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I'm so mad.

Speaker: In fairness, and I hate to be this person, for this style, not for Chicago in general, but for the style of movie that they were going for, she was too old.

Speaker: Not to be mama, though.

Speaker: Not to be mama, she could have done that.

Speaker: But also, oh my god, Queen Lativa's so good.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then, random one, not for a role, but... Barbara Streisand was offered to direct...

Speaker: Right, okay.

Speaker: Sorry.

Speaker: I don't want to be... Okay.

Speaker: So before they secured Rob Marshall, it was offered to Barbra Streisand.

Speaker: Why?

Speaker: Because she'd done such a wonderful job with Yentl.

Speaker: Yes, Rosa.

Speaker: And I see that as a Yentl lover.

Speaker: And the mirror has two faces.

Speaker: Sorry, and the mirror has two faces.

Speaker: I see that as a Yentl defender, but like, if that was her body of work...

Speaker: The worst thing about Yentl, and I love Yentl, Papa can you hear me?

Speaker: I can hear you babe.

Speaker: But the worst thing about Yentl to me is the fact that they had Mandy Patinkin.

Speaker: Mandy Patinkin is a main character and she didn't let him sing a song.

Speaker: It's Patinkin babe.

Speaker: How are you gonna have Patinkin in your movie and he's not singing?

Speaker: Say Patinkin again.

Speaker: Patinkin.

Speaker: Patinkin.

Speaker: Alright girls, so we're switching things up this episode and instead of doing our mega mix casting where we cast the cast of Chicago with another show, what I thought would be fun to do because the 1996 Broadway version has been going on for 10,000 performances baby and has had so much hilarious stunt casting over the past couple years, I thought it would be fun to do a quick quiz of who's played this part, true or false.

Speaker: So I'm going to give you

Speaker: some celebrity names for the characters roxy mama morton and billy flynn and you got to tell me whether you think this person actually had a stint on broadway okay so count up your points and we'll see who wins at the end so for roxy heart true or false pamela anderson true false that is true

Speaker: What?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Pamela Anderson had a stint, babes.

Speaker: It was in her documentary.

Speaker: Oh my god, I can't believe that.

Speaker: Love her.

Speaker: So that is one nil to Casey.

Speaker: Keep your own scores.

Speaker: Okay, what about Emma Stone?

Speaker: False.

Speaker: False.

Speaker: Yeah, you're both correct.

Speaker: She has not had a stint.

Speaker: She did, of course, have a stint as Sally Bowles in Cabaret.

Speaker: Melanie Griffith.

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: I kind of want that to be true.

Speaker: I'm going to say true.

Speaker: Melanie Griffiths.

Speaker: I'm going to say true.

Speaker: Melanie Griffiths.

Speaker: Melanie Griffiths.

Speaker: Yeah, both correct.

Speaker: It's true.

Speaker: Brooke Shields.

Speaker: True.

Speaker: True.

Speaker: Yeah, you're both true.

Speaker: Flo, I'm going to have to ask you to start answering first because it feels like you're slightly copying Casey.

Speaker: Okay, that's fine.

Speaker: Okay, moving on to Mama Morton.

Speaker: Again, I'm going to name you some names.

Speaker: You tell me whether you think they were in the 1996 continued revival.

Speaker: Kelly Osbourne.

Speaker: True.

Speaker: False.

Speaker: True.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: I have no idea what you're copying Casey.

Speaker: I kind of thought that was too random to not be true, actually, but I still went with my gut.

Speaker: it was wrong yeah that queen the i don't know who was in charge of that also it's slightly rude because she is actually a roxy but it was clearly because she was plus size that they were like well stick her in as mormortons like why on earth is one minus kelly osborne in it anyway but if you're gonna cast her as anyone it's roxy surely rupaul oh i wish but i think no i don't think that's true

Speaker: Yeah, false.

Speaker: God, you guys are really good at this.

Speaker: Okay, Michelle Visage.

Speaker: True.

Speaker: Michelle Visage has done it.

Speaker: Yeah, I'm going to say yeah.

Speaker: No, Michelle Visage has never played Mama Morton.

Speaker: I've actually seen Michelle Visage outside a reformer studio before.

Speaker: The place that I was training.

Speaker: It was so random.

Speaker: It was so random.

Speaker: It was in St.

Speaker: John's Wood.

Speaker: Really fancy studio.

Speaker: And I was leaving and I thought, that woman really looks like Michelle Visage.

Speaker: And it was.

Speaker: She was going in for a PT session.

Speaker: I just thought, oh my God, I can't believe it.

Speaker: starstruck that is so funny starstruck i think she she has done miss hedge in yeah yeah i think that's why i'm getting confused and then she also did she did that like one night only adams family thing i think is morticia adams well all right what about wendy williams true false

Speaker: truth i feel like i have to say the opposite of casey i oh no i'm sorry all right last round billy flynn who has played the famous billy flynn what about matthew morrison true false false i hate i hate playing against casey because casey's always right

Speaker: sorry say that again Casey's never right that's what I said what about Jerry Springer oh true true yes it's true very random but yes he has played what about Usher false but I wish I'm gonna say true

Speaker: True, baby.

Speaker: You don't have to wish.

Speaker: I'm sure the footage is out there.

Speaker: I can't believe that.

Speaker: And lastly, we have Billy Ray Cyrus.

Speaker: False.

Speaker: False.

Speaker: True.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: Again, I hope there is an archive of footage from this show.

Speaker: See when the revival finally ends, I'm going to need a super cut of all of these celebrities playing these roles.

Speaker: I need it so bad.

Speaker: Like, I am obsessed.

Speaker: But I will say the people who have played Billy Flynn, God, they've got some good names behind it.

Speaker: Genuinely good names.

Speaker: Michael C. Hall.

Speaker: from Dexter, Todrick Hall, Harry Hamlin, who's Lisa Rinna's husband.

Speaker: Lisa Rinna.

Speaker: Harry Hamlin.

Speaker: For all my Scottish people, we've got Marty Pello from the band Wet Wet Wet.

Speaker: We have Patrick Swayze.

Speaker: Oh, cute.

Speaker: Which is crazy.

Speaker: Billy Zane, Adam Pascal.

Speaker: Honestly, this list is crazy for Billy Flynn.

Speaker: Huey Lewis of Huey Lewis and the News, which is random.

Speaker: But I think my personal favourite has to be, because it's just so mental, Billy Ray Cyrus.

Speaker: Yeah, what the hell?

Speaker: That's so strange.

Speaker: When the revival ends, I am imploring whoever owns the current rights to Chicago the musical, presumably it's John Kander because I think he's still alive, please put together a supercut.

Speaker: Release the supercut.

Speaker: I need it.

Speaker: I need Billy Ray Cyrus.

Speaker: Well, thank you so much, everyone, for joining us on this romp around Chicago.

Speaker: It's been so fun to talk about vaudeville origins.

Speaker: It's been so fun to talk about speakeasy.

Speaker: I think we all want to live our flapper girl dreams now.

Speaker: And I would say to you, all the women listening, put on a flappy dress, cut that hair into a sharp bob and go and smoke a cigarette.

Speaker: Go and dance the night away.

Speaker: Please keep up with us on socials.

Speaker: We've got so much stuff unplanned.

Speaker: If you keep up with us, I'm sure that you'll have already seen that we did a Mean Girls quiz last month that was super fun.

Speaker: Let us know if you want us to do a Chicago quiz.

Speaker: I will happily do another round of has this person been stunt casted in the 1996 revival?

Speaker: And you guys can test your knowledge against Casey who seems to get everything right.

Speaker: Just a reminder to rate and review us wherever you listen.

Speaker: We're available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and five-star reviews just really help us get the show out there and helps us to keep bringing you more and more content.

Speaker: Let us know what you'd like us to cover next.

Speaker: We're all yours.

Speaker: And just like that, we've been All That Chess.

Speaker: Bye!