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Catherine McKenzie/Catherine Mack
140 Plays7 days ago
Mystery and thriller author Catherine McKenzie/Catherine Mack, author of recent What Would You Do episode feature Please Join Us (2022) and the popular Every Time I Go On Vacation, Someone Dies (2024) and its sequel No One Was Supposed to Die At This Wedding (2025) joins Brook and Sarah in today's episode to discuss writing thrillers, mysteries, and what makes a great story.
Discussed and mentioned
Please Join Us (2022) Catherine McKenzie
Every Time I Go on Vacation Someone Dies (2024) Catherine Mack
No One Was Supposed to Die at This Wedding (2025) Catherine Mack
For more about Catherine Mack/Catherine McKenzie
website: catherinemackauthor.com
Instagram: @catherinemckenzieauthor
X/Twitter: @CEMcKenzie1
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CatherineMcKenzieAuthor
Related episodes
What Would You Do: Please Join Us (released February 18, 2025)
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For a full transcript, visit https://cluedinmystery.com/catherine-mckenzie/
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi, Brooke. Hi, Sarah. I'm so pleased that today we get the opportunity to visit with mystery and thriller author Catherine McKenzie.
00:00:29
Speaker
This is going to be such a fun conversation because ah we'll talk about some of her books as well as I hope please join us, which is one of the books that we did for our What Would You do episode.
00:00:42
Speaker
Yes.
Catherine McKenzie's Writing Journey
00:00:43
Speaker
So I'll start us off with a ah brief introduction to Catherine. Catherine Mack is the pseudonym for Catherine Mackenzie, the USTA Today and Globe and Mail bestselling author of over a dozen novels.
00:00:57
Speaker
Her books are approaching 2 million copies sold worldwide and have been translated into multiple languages, including French, German, Portuguese, and Polish. Television rights to Every Time I Go on Vacation Someone Dies and its forthcoming sequels sold in a major auction to Fox TV for development into a series with Mac writing the pilot script.
00:01:18
Speaker
A dual Canadian and U.S. citizen, she splits her time between Canada and various warmer locations in the U.S. Welcome, Catherine. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
00:01:29
Speaker
So, Catherine, before becoming an author, you practiced law for 20 years. What inspired your change to these more creative pursuits? Well, I'd actually already started publishing 10 years before I stopped practicing law. So I was doing both for 10 years. Yeah.
00:01:47
Speaker
And in the end, had just sort of run my course with my law career. um i didn't actually quit to write full time. um i think I just had enough of ah living in other people's conflicts, which is I was a litigation lawyer. So. all
Why Lawyers Become Writers
00:02:04
Speaker
it's just conflict sometimes resolution but mostly conflict so um so yeah that's how I ended up um writing full-time and I've been lucky enough since I left my law career to still be getting book contracts and still be able to make my living that way
00:02:23
Speaker
That's great. I like that you said that, you know, in your old job, it was all conflict. And Sarah and I talk about all the time that that's one of the draws to mystery fiction is there's always a good, complete ending, right? Justice is usually served. A nice bow is put on it. And in real life, it's not always that way.
00:02:41
Speaker
No, it's it's not always that way in real life. I mean, if you go to court, there is a resolution. You know, there's a judgment. um Most cases settle. And then both people are annoyed and then happy eventually that they didn't end up in court because they got to control their outcome. So it's different.
00:02:58
Speaker
um I think and maybe we'll we'll get here, but there are lots of lawyers who become writers. And i think actually the conflict is part of the reason, but maybe not for the reason you'd think. Well, let's talk about that a little bit um because you're right. you know i was I was thinking about ah how many lawyers interviews we have had, Brooke, with people who are lawyers or trained as as lawyers. And
Real-Life Conflicts in Writing
00:03:23
Speaker
we had another one um just recently with Jacob Kerr, who was a lawyer and then just published ah his debut novel.
00:03:32
Speaker
um It seems to be a, I don't know if it's a logical outlet, um right but ah it seems to be an outlet for a lot of a lot of people in the law profession.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think there's a bunch of different reasons that I've sort of formulated over the years. um One, i think, you know, most people who are lawyers are sort of highly motivated self-starters. So they're the type of person who won't just talk about writing a book, saying I'm going to write one in retirement or whatever. They'll actually do it. And then once they'll do it, they're actually, you know, have enough confidence to move forward with trying to get it published. So that like right there, that's you're you're narrowing down the you know, the the the pool there, I think. And then I think also a lot of law is writing, like especially in litigation. you know, every piece of litigation starts with a recitation of the facts and it is storytelling.
00:04:27
Speaker
um And it's, it is how you frame the facts and you can't make things up, but you do, it is still about people and characters and plot and personality and uncovering mysteries. So a lot of that is really applicable.
00:04:41
Speaker
The best lawyers are excellent writers. Yeah. Um, and then the third thing, which is what I was alluding to before is, you know, you do have access to people in a way that most people don't.
00:04:52
Speaker
So when you're a lawyer, you're always meeting people in a point of crisis um and under stress. And that's not how we interact normally with people, right? Like, yes, maybe our close friends or family members, but like literally every action interaction all day long with clients is people like when they come see you, it's the worst day of their life, right? They just got sued or they need to sue somebody.
00:05:16
Speaker
And then it never gets better from there. Like no one's like, yeah, I'm so happy to see my lawyer today. And my clients loved me, but still, you know, so, um so I think in in terms of insight into what people will do and how people will act.
00:05:31
Speaker
um And, you know, I was always fond of saying that people think that like lawyers are liars and stuff. And I'm like, it's not the lawyers that are the liars, it's the clients, you know? And um because I, you know, lawyers are not on the witness stand. And, you know, it definitely a shock for me when I first started practicing law to see like,
00:05:49
Speaker
How quickly people are willing to massage, bend the truth when, you know, there's real stakes involved. um And so, yeah, we just, I've just had access to like the worst of people for a really long time. And that does, not that I base any characters in my books on any, any client of mine or anything like that, but just having,
00:06:11
Speaker
access to the way people behave in situations and be able to take that and then apply that to the situations I put my characters in, I think is really, um, something that a lot of people just don't, you know, therapists, I think, and there's lots of writers who are therapists and there's lots of writers who are medical doctors, I think all for the same reason.
00:06:28
Speaker
Um, because we
Exploring Moral Complexities
00:06:29
Speaker
were taking a group of, you know, highly skilled, highly trained people and, and then you're giving them access to stories. And then you put that together and they can come up with their their own stories out of you know the experience that they have of things that didn't happen to them.
00:06:45
Speaker
So that's my 50 cent version of why there's so many people in those kind of professions who end up writing books.
00:06:55
Speaker
No, I think that's really fascinating. It's such a treat to speak to you because we did take that deep dive into your book, um Please Join Us, is a study on manipulation, white collar crime, and women supporting each other,
00:07:10
Speaker
sort of And often in thrillers, um Sarah and I have talked about a lot and we see characters making really silly choices and it's sometimes hard to really suspend your disbelief enough to get into the story. But you avoided that in this book and many times we said that we felt like, oh, I could see that really happening.
00:07:32
Speaker
So how did you do that and how did you approach making a story that felt realistic but was still a thriller? Well, thank you. Yeah, I think, you know, what I'm always trying to do is is explore the gray because life is not black and white.
00:07:49
Speaker
And um people like even Mother Teresa had bad thoughts. You know, there are people that Mother Teresa didn't like. Right. And so um and writing books about good people is boring. So um we don't do that.
00:08:03
Speaker
And I think, um you know, in particular with that book, I set out to write a book where everyone was a woman. So the good people, the bad, the villains, like The men are the side characters in the book. And it was a very deliberate choice that I made because while there's a lot of women-centered thrillers now, there wasn't 10 years ago, but there are a lot now, i think that we still tend to have a lot of gendered roles in thrillers. Yeah.
00:08:32
Speaker
So the woman is the heroine, but she's not the bad guy, you know? So I wanted to do that. And and then when when you make that choice, I think it's important to be like, okay, well, how did that person get to the place where this seemed like something that was something that made sense to them at the time? Like, I've been long fascinated with cults.
00:08:51
Speaker
and how people get drawn into them. And it's not my observation, but I think it's apt. It's just, you know, nobody starts off a day one in a cult like, okay, so you're in a cult and you're going to give up all your personal freedom and you're not going to talk to your family anymore. Like that's not how it happens. Right.
00:09:07
Speaker
And it is, it runs a parallel course with abusive relationships and, and it is a form of abuse, but it happens very slowly over time. And that's how people end up in these situations. So when you're on the outside of, you know, an abusive marriage or,
00:09:22
Speaker
people in a cult, you're like, ah obviously, like, why don you just leave, you know? But because there was a slow erosion of your sense of self and self-confidence and independence and and ah cutting off from everything around you. And they prey on people who are vulnerable in a moment um and are seeking answers, you know? So that's, I wanted to explore that and sort of show how that could happen because it does happen much more often than we think, I think.
00:09:50
Speaker
And, and And yeah, I don't need you to like my characters, but I do want you to understand them. So to feel like, yeah, if I was in that situation, that is something that I could choose in the moment.
00:10:03
Speaker
You
Transition to Cozier Mysteries
00:10:04
Speaker
know, even if you think you wouldn't, um you might. And i just i'm that's the sort of versimilitude that I'm looking for when I'm writing, is to like...
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah. you So you don't have to suspend your disbelief in the same way. And like that book, I did get invited to a women's organization that was pretty fishy. Like that was the germ of the book for me.
00:10:27
Speaker
And I was like, is this a cult? Like, what is this? You know, what is this? and And my husband was like, well, you're not going. And I'm like, well, maybe I will. It's good. Like book research. And he's like, absolutely not.
00:10:39
Speaker
I'm like, well, if I want to go, I'll go. I'm not going to get pulled into a cult. um So I didn't go because I didn't, you know, at the end that left me the freedom to write whatever I imagined was going to happen at this retreat in Idaho um was where I was invited to go.
00:10:58
Speaker
um So yeah, you know, these things are happening out there. Right. So, um so yeah, but I think, again, I think there's more of that than we think. And I think taking realistic situations and then obviously amping up the,
00:11:16
Speaker
conflict and stakes and tension and all of that, but taking you along the the ride. I think part of what also helps the reader access that is because tend to write in first person. So you really have complete access to the thoughts of the character and you are experiencing what she's experiencing as she's experiencing it without any remove you know there's no like let me tell you about this thing that's happened to me three years ago right yeah it's happening it's unfolding in real time so I think that that helps too to sort of suck you into what she's up to and why
00:11:53
Speaker
ah So you've written other standalone thrillers, but you've recently turned your hand to some lighter, cozier mysteries. And
Setting Stories in Unique Environments
00:12:03
Speaker
I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the reason for that shift and whether you think you'll go back to writing thrillers.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, thrillers are a dark space. Yeah. And I've written, like, depending on how you class, I feel like I wrote eight books really in that space, eight or nine books.
00:12:22
Speaker
Um, and I was finding it heavy, be honest. Um, Like there weren't a lot of days at the writing desk that were like, oh, this is awesome. Like, yeah there's so many jokes here. and And ah so I was looking just for me to sort of stretch myself as a writer.
00:12:41
Speaker
um My first books before I started writing thrillers were comedies. Like I thought I was the next Nick Hornby, but I was a woman. So they called it women's fiction. You know, i wanted to sort of like take my mystery writing skills. Like I think I'm good at creating puzzles and, and, and, and then unraveling them on the page, et cetera, and, and twists.
00:13:05
Speaker
And all my books have had twists through my career, whether I was writing mysteries or thrillers or not. And then bring in some of those lighter elements, just like literally for more fun for me.
00:13:16
Speaker
and I had been working on a different idea that just wasn't panning out for whatever reason. Um, and, uh, and then I got the idea for every time I go on vacation, someone dies and and I was like super excited about it.
00:13:31
Speaker
Um, and it, and it really was just like so much fun to write. Um, and I, and I am working on a thriller, um That was something that I've been working on off and on for many years. So maybe it'll see the light of day.
00:13:48
Speaker
I'm having a lot of fun writing, you know, writing this series. And um I got a three book contract and I'm about to turn in book three. And we'll see if I'm allowed to write more.
00:14:02
Speaker
That's excellent. Well, you released No One Was Supposed to Die at This Wedding, which, by the way, I love this title. And it comes out in May of this year, 2025. We just released an episode where we talked about mysteries set at weddings.
00:14:18
Speaker
ah Why did you set your story at a wedding? Like, what was your idea behind that? Well, the whole idea behind that series, so the main character, Eleanor Dash, is a mystery writer um with a long-running mystery series. And part of the
Advice on Writing Realistic Fiction
00:14:35
Speaker
conceit of the series and the fun of it for me is that it's very meta and it sort of skewers different aspects of publishing or in No One's Supposed to Die at This Wedding, um books being made into film, and um but also bigger mystery tropes.
00:14:51
Speaker
And so to me, the like, you know, the wedding, like an island wedding trope, is it's it's there. And I think it's so rife with potential for mystery because like families, anytime you're getting a family together, like there's generational ah stress and, and ties and anxiety. And then just weddings themselves are so heightened because like, there's all this, like, it has to be the perfect day and all that coming together.
00:15:22
Speaker
And then you're also just getting together a group, a disparate group of people who don't maybe don't normally hang out together. So I thought it was like a fun environment to explore. you know, all of those tropes together.
00:15:35
Speaker
um and just the setup of the novel is that it's, they're making a movie of her bestselling book. And um it's the end of filming and the main, the, the,
00:15:47
Speaker
the actors who are playing the main characters who are based on her and her ex-boyfriend are, have fallen in love and are getting married. And so I like that duality too. I like the idea of having like, there's two Eleonors walking around really. And there's two Connor Smiths walking around and I get to play around with, with that in the book.
00:16:06
Speaker
So Yeah, I mean, I didn't, I don't know if I've thought it all the way through that there's probably a whole subgenre of mysteries set at weddings. um But it's fun to play with tropes because i I like to acknowledge the trope and then twist it.
00:16:21
Speaker
Because that's, I think, what keeps the mystery less predictable for the reader, you know. And i I'm not going to say like, oh, no one ever guesses the endings of my books. Like, that's not true.
00:16:33
Speaker
Um, but I think what I do well is that I'm fair with the reader. So you might figure it out, but it's because I've given you enough clues to figure it out and you're going to figure it out at the end and you're not going to get all of why.
00:16:51
Speaker
Like there's going to be parts of it where you're like, oh, okay. I didn't, that I didn't get. But now that I go back, if I read this, I understand. so um I think it's like, it it it was a fun thing to explore all of those, those moments that, and people understand that framework too, right? Like, you know, you have to explain a lot with a wedding.
00:17:11
Speaker
It's like people know, okay, rehearsal dinner, like, you know, bachelor party, whatever. Like those, the elements are all there. Engagement party. People get it. So it's just, ah it's something that people know, it's familiar. And then, but you're going to bring them in. Like the book,
00:17:29
Speaker
The structure I use for this book is we start in the middle with the discovery of a body and then we go back two days in time. So like you're at the wedding, there's a dead body. How did we get here? yeah Awesome.
00:17:41
Speaker
i'm I'm looking forward to reading it. So you've talked about, ah you know, having been a lawyer and then and then becoming an author. What advice do you have for people who might want to use their career or life experiences and craft mysteries?
00:17:59
Speaker
I mean, I think you have to be careful. think that most people's first novels are like semi-autobiographical, I feel. And I have a semi-autobiographical first novel that lives in a drawer um that will never see the light of day.
00:18:12
Speaker
um But I'm glad I wrote it because I got myself out of the way. And that opened me up to like write about other things than me. But people do love that specific connection.
00:18:24
Speaker
So if you have like an interesting job that people don't know about, you know, definitely use that. You know, someone I know is a court reporter. And I was like, you need to write a series of books like ah with a court reporter because, my God, you're like the invisible person in the room and whatever. And she did end up proposing something and she did sell her series. So like I want my cut, but I'm kidding.
00:18:47
Speaker
but um but But yeah, I think for sure. like we don't need more books with lawyers as the main character, Yeah. but Not that they aren't good and not that I haven't written many.
00:18:57
Speaker
I think what you should always be trying to do is like take your life experiences and then extrapolate them to the made situation. So, you know, people are always assume that like, like especially I think if you're a woman that you're writing about yourself and it's things that you've gone through. And I'm like, well, i haven't murdered anyone. And like I've written 20 novels by now. My life is not that interesting. You know, I haven't done any of the things that my main characters have really. But what I have done, what I do do is think about analogous situations and how I behaved or people around me behaved or people I saw behave. And then I take those emotions and reactions and put them in the fake people that I made.
00:19:34
Speaker
ah So I think lots of people have interesting access to people. And if you, you know,
Hybrid Writing Process
00:19:43
Speaker
you can definitely use that regardless of what your job is.
00:19:46
Speaker
um Somebody could get murdered in the middle podcast, right? Personally, i think that you shouldn't be too wedded to the way things actually happened. I did a writer's conference for a long time where we would read the first 15, 20 pages of people's novels.
00:20:04
Speaker
And a lot of the time, like it didn't make sense for a book and then be like, well, that's what really happened. And I'm like, right, but you're writing fiction now. So, you know, it's not a memoir. You can change things and you should, because this doesn't make any sense in a book. Life is very rarely tied up in a neat little bow with like a beginning, middle and end and act breaks and all that stuff. Right. So.
00:20:24
Speaker
um i think I think people take write what you know too literally, and they they think it means write about yourself. And I don't think that that's what it should mean. I think it's, you know, write something where you can use your experiences to make it realistic on the page, whatever that means.
00:20:44
Speaker
But like, You don't have to just write things that you personally have gone through because like, how would we ever have murder mysteries? You know, if that were the case, right? Like, especially in Canada, we don't have that many murderers here. Um, thanks. Thankfully. So.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah. Great advice. Great advice. Well, I'm interested, Catherine, in like, are you somebody who plots out your novels ahead of time? Do you discover them as you go along? What's your process like?
00:21:13
Speaker
I always said I was a panster. I think I'm like a hybrid, honestly. So I don't do detailed outlines of my books. But I do know the beginning, middle, and I know who did it.
00:21:26
Speaker
I know how they did it. I know why they did it. especially when you're writing mysteries, I think it's very important to know those things before you start. I mean, I just saw, so I always use Stephen King as an example of someone who apparently was a complete panster, but he's just written a mystery and he admitted that he plotted it. I was like, I saw that too. I'm like, I knew it, you know, knew you had to do that. So, um,
00:21:54
Speaker
Yeah. And I think also, you know, did Stephen, does Stephen King write out detailed outlines? No. Does he sit down in front of the page every day and have no idea where he's going? Also, no. Right.
00:22:05
Speaker
I definitely spend a lot of time thinking about the overall plot, who's going to be in the book. And then I start writing to sort of spend the most time in the first third discovering like, where is this going to be set? Who else is going to be here?
00:22:18
Speaker
What are they going to be like? What's happening to get me to my first like big you know, twist, reveal, whatever that's going to happen at the end of the first act and And then once I know that, I kind of plot in thirds and I write in thirds.
00:22:32
Speaker
um So I tend to like write the first third of the book and then go back to the beginning and then write through the second third and then go back to the beginning and then write the last third. I've used that process a lot, probably for my last six, seven books.
00:22:45
Speaker
Seems to work for me. Keeps forward momentum. I'm always, you know, and I, again, I know how it's going to end. So I'm driving towards that, that end, um which definitely helps.
00:22:58
Speaker
Um, and
Social Media Presence
00:22:59
Speaker
I have notes, you know, i have notes, which I sometimes consult and sometimes don't. Sometimes I go back and I'm like, oh yeah, I meant to do that. Oh well. But no, I mean, I know somebody who writes like a 50 page outline. Like that to me is just a short first draft of a book. Like, I don't know what, what's that about, but yeah. So that's, that's my process. I'm a big believer in forward momentum. I think a lot of new writers get stuck on the beginning chapters of their books and never move past that because they're trying to make them perfect.
00:23:30
Speaker
And um I think it's like, You need to finish a draft. And once it's finished, then first of all, you know what the book is. And yeah you can go back and you can fix what needs to be fixed.
00:23:41
Speaker
If you never get to the end, never going be done. so ah That's great advice. um So, Catherine, can you share where readers can find you?
00:23:55
Speaker
Sure. ah So I'm very online. ah If you want to know about me and my books, like I'm on Instagram, Facebook, um my website, ah Catherine McKenzie author kind of everywhere. I'm also on TikTok, what I'm doing over there.
00:24:14
Speaker
um my political posts go viral and then men say mean things to me in the comments for like weeks
Conclusion and Production Notes
00:24:19
Speaker
afterwards. and And yeah, so I'm kind of everywhere online. It's not hard to find me if you're looking for me, but my books right now are published under Catherine Mack.
00:24:31
Speaker
So M-A-C-K. um So if you search for me, I think that comes up now. Like at the beginning it was a secret, but now I think, you know, people have figured it out. So Um, so yeah, that's where you can find me.
00:24:45
Speaker
We will make sure to put links to all of your spaces ah in the show notes. Catherine, it has been so much fun to speak with you today and just learn a little bit more about your writing and your writing process. And, uh, I am definitely looking forward to your next book.
00:25:04
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, it was so fun to talk to you guys. Thanks for having me. Yes, this has been great. And thank you listeners for joining us today on Clued in Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah.
00:25:15
Speaker
And we both love mystery. Clued in Mystery is written and produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers. If you liked what you heard, please consider telling a friend, leaving a review, or subscribing with your favorite podcast listening app.
00:25:30
Speaker
Visit our website at cluedinmystery.com to sign up for our newsletter, The Clued in Chronicle, or to join our paid membership, The Clued in Cartel. We're on social media at Clued in Mystery.