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#26: The Tension of Ministry Success, Metrics, and Ministry Depth (Interview with Peter Pizzuto)
89 Plays1 month ago
Episode Summary
In this episode, Rich Brown sits down with his brother-in-law, Peter Pizzuto, to discuss the tension between ministry programs, attendance metrics, and genuine discipleship as this relates to how ministry leaders define success. Drawing from their decades of ministry experience, they examine the strengths and weaknesses of ministry structures, the danger of measuring success primarily by attendance, and the importance of prioritizing discipleship over programming.
Peter shares how the pandemic exposed weaknesses in his own ministry context (of over 500 students) and other highly program-driven ministries and forced leaders to reconsider what truly matters. Together they argue that ministry structures should exist to build students rather than using students to build ministry programs, why people must always come before programs, why small groups matter, and how churches can prioritize long-term spiritual formation over short-term success.
If you've ever wrestled with attendance numbers, ministry expectations, or what it means to truly disciple students, lean into this conversation! You will find yourself nodding your head or even talking out loud! This will encourage and challenge you.
The conversation highlights:
- People over programs.
- Small groups as the engine of discipleship.
- The importance of parents in spiritual formation.
- The danger of finding identity in ministry success.
- Preparing students for lifelong faith rather than temporary group engagement.
- Helping students answer the "why" questions about the faith.
- Measuring success by spiritual maturity and long-term faithfulness.
Resources Mentioned
Next Gen Matters: https://www.nextgenmatters.com/
Y2believe: https://y2believe.org/
Email for Rich Brown (NGM): rich@nextgenmatters.com
Email for Peter Pizzuto: peter.m.pizzuto@gmail.com
Subscribe for NGM Thursday Tools email
Watch this episode on YouTube
The Bible (Scripture references in the order of their mention): Psalm 71; Galatians 4:19; Colossians 1:28–29; Ecclesiastes 12:1; 1 Peter 3:15; Matthew 11:28–30; Ephesians 4:11–16; Ephesians 6:4.
Timestamps
0:00–5:00 — Introduction and defining ministry success
5:00–11:00 — COVID lockdowns and the ministry reset
11:00–18:00 — People over programs
18:00–24:00 — Small groups and discipleship
24:00–31:00 — The dangers of program-driven ministry
31:00–36:00 — Identity and validation in ministry
36:00–41:00 — Measuring success ten years later
41:00–46:00 — Parents as primary disciplers
46:00–End — Y2 Believe ministry and final encouragement
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Next Gen Matters
00:00:01
NextGen Matters
Hey, ministry leader, this is Rich Brown with the Next Gen Matters podcast, a show for ministry leaders seeking to move beyond overwhelm and move into leading with clarity, confidence, and consistency. If you're watching on YouTube, the guy sitting next to me is my brother-in-law, Peter Pizzuto, all the way from Cincinnati, Ohio. Peter, glad to have you here. Hey, so glad to be here. we're gonna hang and have a good conversation. We're to be We're actually shooting this in our our church's conference room here as Peter's been the speaker of our high school and middle school camp. It's an in-house camp this year.
00:00:32
NextGen Matters
they We're hosting it right here at the facility.
Defining Ministry Success
00:00:34
NextGen Matters
So I thought, hey, let's use the conference center and do a podcast. How's that? Yeah, absolutely. Perfect timing. We're about to... head out here for the final session. But before then, we'd love to have a good conversation. Oh man, we got some stuff for you. Okay, so here's the deal.
00:00:48
NextGen Matters
Success. Success in ministry. You may have a definition that could be different than your senior leadership's definition of ministry success. And then as you see through scriptures, unfortunately, sometimes you see that's even a different definition of success that Jesus has for his people in his church. So the question is, do we calibrate? Well, then everything's good and happy typically, but what happens when we don't calibrate? Another way of looking at this is metrics. How do we even measure success? Peter's got some stories. Of course, I have stories and here's where we want to encourage you with the following.
00:01:26
NextGen Matters
How do we tape measure
Peter's Ministry Journey
00:01:28
NextGen Matters
success? Because so many of us, I've grown up in a culture where success in the local church is defined through the program, or let's say the word, the structure.
00:01:39
NextGen Matters
We're not anti-structure. We're going to look into what are some of the benefits of a good intentional ministry structure. There's also a dark side and a negative side to structure. So Peter, we're going to jump in. Take us back to that 2020 that we all know.
00:01:56
NextGen Matters
The world shut down in March. It was the second week. y'all remember that? It was the second week in March back in 2020. Before that, what was going on in your ministry there Cincinnati? Yeah, so it was my last job that I had worked at the local church and was on staff there for about 11 and a half years.
00:02:14
NextGen Matters
I had graduated from Liberty University, and got my master's in apologetics, worked at two churches in California, and then one more church in Ohio before I finally landed at the last church I worked at. So at this point, I was really...
00:02:26
NextGen Matters
Focused on, okay, I really want to plant my roots here. i want to i want to see some students come up through the ministry and be there for a long run. So got there in 2014.
00:02:37
NextGen Matters
And, you know, every year we were growing and and more students were coming and we were getting them connected small groups, having good momentum year after year. So right in around 2019, we really hit. we really hit In my experience for being there for that long, we kind of, I guess you could say we were pe peaking more students than we've ever had before, or more volunteers, all those things. Things are clicking on all cylinders.
00:03:02
NextGen Matters
We actually just got our youth room renovated in September 2019. And if you're from the Midwest, by the way, or you travel through the Midwest, 75, you know, gu goes from Cincy up to up to Canada. Anyway, then you got interstate 71, Cincy to Columbus.
00:03:21
NextGen Matters
They're the church that was right next to, or is right next to Kings Island yeah Amusement Park. And yes, you were just having the whole major development in that building. Yes. Yeah, so it's an old movie theater that has been renovated and the student room was the last one. It was a massive renovation and student room was incredible.
00:03:39
NextGen Matters
Opened it up, had a great kickoff back school bash. And then 2020
Reevaluating Post-Pandemic Focus
00:03:43
NextGen Matters
happened. Yeah. And you know, not sure what it was like in your setting, but it radically affected the majority of churches. And we weren't meeting for couple of months. How long can you Zoom, right? Oh, yeah. I think everybody talked to was like two or three weeks. It's kind like, okay, we're done.
00:04:01
NextGen Matters
Zoom exhaustion, fatigue was real. And no one wants to be on Zoom, especially students. one did That's how they did school, right? Yeah. But here's what we realized. We realized that once we, you know, we did the Zoom thing, tried all that we could. But when we started to gather again, even after...
00:04:20
NextGen Matters
things started opening up, we saw a major reset button was pressed and it really got me thinking, man, what was there something that I could have done or we could have done it as a ministry for years instead of doing what we did do so that when the doors opened, everybody was right back together. So I wondered and I really started to reevaluate everything.
00:04:44
NextGen Matters
Because you, me, so many of us, are so program driven that when the program wasn't available, what do we do?
00:04:57
NextGen Matters
And I think the why question, not the what, But the why question really kind of emerged. Like, why do we do this? Is it truly about developing disciples?
00:05:09
NextGen Matters
Well, then the how may look different than it was before. I've talked to so many who've actually, they did some pivots and they stayed with their pivots because they found themselves serving students better not the structure as they calibrate is some of the structure so hey that's what we're gonna look at and look into and have this conversation so Peter something you and my sister your wife we're talking about last night was the idea of people over program or you would call it over height you can the heart over heart over height yeah yeah so let's let's walk into that a little bit yeah
00:05:48
NextGen Matters
You know, leading up to 2019, we had monthly outreach events, which nothing wrong with us. That was a massive front door to our ministry. And we use that on campus to really give students the opportunity to invite their friends. yep So very, very effective.
00:06:10
NextGen Matters
But what I realized during the pandemic is okay, they love these events. they They want these events. Some of them are like, hey, we we miss not having our groups on those nights. and you say groups, walk me through that. Yeah. So group time would be, you know, we'd have programmed for 45 minutes. Okay. And then we'd have group time. Well, actually before the pandemic, we'd program for an hour and then a half hour groups. Okay.
00:06:34
NextGen Matters
But what we realized is, and what we, we all know this to be true. The church is, God created for connection. Yeah. For community. So it felt like, you know, looking back now, man, I put a lot of eggs in the basket for the front door.
00:06:51
NextGen Matters
But then when the front door, the program was taken away and the back door is groups, meaning by that, I mean, you know, an event is designed to invite somebody in. But like you said, what's the church all about?
00:07:04
NextGen Matters
We're about making disciples. And I thought, man, this really got me to rethink everything specifically into people over programs. So what that means is
Balancing Structure and Discipleship
00:07:15
NextGen Matters
programs are important, but we're not program directors or pastors. Yeah. We're not trying to put on a show. Right.
00:07:24
NextGen Matters
You know, I remember i would talk to my team about this. We would do some openers are really cool creative things. And yeah, I remember in junior high ministry, I would talk to my junior high director, and we would just talk about, man, that was really cool. There was a lot of effort that went into that. But the junior hires, just kind of they don't even appreciate some of the creativity and whatnot. And what we realized, especially the pandemic, just kind of reset our mindset to now people just want to know that they're cared for. Does somebody know my name?
00:07:55
NextGen Matters
Does somebody know where I'm at spiritually? in my Are they helping me take steps in my faith? Forget the most creative thing ever. I mean, that's not really what the church is about. Should it be creative? Yes.
00:08:07
NextGen Matters
Those are all good things. But at the end of the day, people over program means we need to be putting all of our thoughts, energy and effort into shepherding and disciples people more than thinking oh what's the next best creative thing we can do. right And I value, i know you do as well, but I value highly intentional ministry structure. Me too. Yeah.
00:08:29
NextGen Matters
But something that I would say in my university days of teaching in the classroom was the following. Use your structure to build your students.
00:08:41
NextGen Matters
Do not use your students to build your structure.
00:08:47
NextGen Matters
Let that hang in the air. I grew up in the 1970s, daddy being a preacher. really tied up in the church growth movement which i i do i sincerely praise the lord there was a commitment to we've got to go into back in the day of the king james the highways and byways compel them to come in and use the program to do it again i think there's some good and excellent value of that but what i also saw as a teenager myself was We were using people to make us, not me, I was a teenager, but you know my dad, his peers in ministry, to make them look good.
00:09:28
NextGen Matters
right That's just really raw and honest. And then you think about when I jumped into youth ministry in the mid eighties, I began realizing, oh, I'm doing the same thing. I'm hoping I'm going jacked up. I'm hoping that I have a big showing to that youth event back in the day. We used to have fifth quarters after the football game.
00:09:46
NextGen Matters
So I could meet with youth ministry friends at churches. And when asked that obvious question that everyone always asks, Hey, how big is your youth group? Right.
00:09:56
NextGen Matters
So I could drop a number on the table. And then I realized, am I really encouraging students to bring in their lost friends to sincerely hear the gospel? Yes, a lot of me can honestly say yes, but I also, I'm being honest, I also had that the back of my mind.
00:10:12
NextGen Matters
And it also can make me look pretty good because we're all fighting for that sense of, of I'm valued, I'm a valued player in the kingdom work, right? And it makes me look good to have a bigger group because yes, we do value judge each other in the size of ministries.
00:10:28
NextGen Matters
and seeing your pastors go through the same struggle. And then that comes on to us as youth pastors. Are you feeling this right now, y'all? Are you feeling this right now? I know you are. So many of us, the metrics are the numbers.
00:10:42
NextGen Matters
And what can be lost in that? I know I'm getting jacked up on this. But what can be lost on that is the why. Am I really concerned about that 96% that's last episode, Matt McClay did a phenomenal job. And i by the way, I've still been in contact with Matt.
00:10:58
NextGen Matters
Every one of those students who received Jesus had been baptized or or being baptized within two weeks of this recording. Bam. That's all it was truly about making disciples. Just I'm making, to use the phrase decisions. Okay.
00:11:12
NextGen Matters
So I, and we are all about outreach. But is it truly about the first step in the process of becoming the disciple that Jesus has called us to be? That's what we're talking about here. It's just not metrics as far as numbers, but we see the 96% of law students coming in the front door. Yeah, we use some attractional things. Sure.
00:11:33
NextGen Matters
but is that the goal? Yeah. So Peter, let's walk through that. When I said that phrase, using this structure to build your students, you've heard me say that before, but what goes through your mind when you hear me say that? Probably the 13th time pretty for you to hear it. Yeah, well, obviously we're trying to let them, and ultimately sanctification yes is what it is. Ultimately to become more like Jesus because the gospel will bring numbers.
00:12:01
NextGen Matters
If the gospel is going forth, then numbers come. So that's why it's not as important to focus on the numbers. We need to focus on the gospel and sanctification. And that's what's so hard. And I've been the youth pastor who did all the things, yeah all the giveaways and and and and the hype and all the, you know, all this stuff, all the, you know, all the things you could think of, I tried and did. And as I was thinking about that, I thought,
00:12:26
NextGen Matters
yeah work' yeah We can get more kids in the room than what we can disciple. So that becomes a problem. Okay, okay. Which means if we're going to grow numerically. Yes. and By the way, y'all, he would where we met, I got to drop this back a minute. let be Let me drop back in coverage, okay?
00:12:47
NextGen Matters
Peter was 19 when I first met him. I started as I was the new youth pastor in his home church, literally just outside of Seattle. It was like the next suburb out of Seattle, Washington.
00:12:58
NextGen Matters
And I was his youth pastor as he was a freshman in college in the junior college, his local school there. 19, you were the game guy, the fun guy, the game guy. You were the drummer in the band.
00:13:09
NextGen Matters
You were ninth grade guys leader. And we connected just like that. It didn't take long at all. Three years later, my younger sister, 18 years my younger, is my summer intern.
00:13:22
NextGen Matters
They meet and the magic began to happen. and I actually got to do their wedding a couple years later, which the anniversary this coming weekend. Don't forget it, by the way. This is coming weekend. got it. Thank you for the reminder, though. 20 how many? 20. 23. I know that because we we moved to Lynchburg, Virginia. is Their wedding was actually part of our our move from Seattle to Lynchburg, Virginia. So anyway, you just missed me and had to move. i I was so thrilled that my, I'll say my baby sister, my beautiful baby sister, who's now this young adult, this young woman of God who had a heart for youth ministry, taking a youth major was now seriously beginning to date.
00:14:02
NextGen Matters
One of these great young men in our youth ministry, one of my leaders. I'm like, okay, Lord, let's make this happen. And he did. You've got three awesome young men, too, by the way. So, Peter, we've had a long, long journey together. I like to tell your sons, I met your, you know, I knew your dad before your mom knew your dad. And I know, of course, your mom before your dad met your mom.
00:14:24
NextGen Matters
They're like, what? And they got over and figured it out. Okay. So we've had a lot. weve We served together. i mean, you were one of our leaders. You were the camp guy with me and all this. lot of coverage we've done.
00:14:39
NextGen Matters
We both have done well at focused, intentional structure. But with that said, I would say so many times when I was your youth pastor, when you were one of my leaders, we only grow big if we keep quality in the sense of growing small.
00:14:57
NextGen Matters
Make sense at all? We only grow bit in a healthy sense. We only grow big as we have that quality control if will of being healthy as small groups. yeah And that's what you're talking about. Is it not? Or am I off? That's exactly right. Okay. So go with that.
00:15:11
NextGen Matters
Yeah. Which by the way, before NGM, Rich, there was Professor Rich, Dr. Rich. And before that, there was you, Pastor Rich. And I got to see of them. I going from Pastor Rich to Doc Brown to, that's my brother-in-law. That's dude.
00:15:24
NextGen Matters
I got to see you in the real world. doing real ministry yeah and it impacted my life greatly. And I wouldn't be where I am today without your influence. So thank you for that. You're welcome. It's been a joy to learn from you and and and see the amazing fruit and impact that you've had.
00:15:40
NextGen Matters
And a lot of what I do was influenced by you. So yeah, I would realize that we could get a lot of kids to an event, but on the back end, and I know I'm kind of speaking mechanically, but as far as someone who can disciple these kids, know their name,
00:15:56
NextGen Matters
go to their things, have them over. we were very overwhelmed. So it was always a battle of groups were being too big. Then you have to split. And you guys know if you have to split groups, that's the worst thing because kids always leave. There's no easy way to do it, which is just heartbreaking, heart-wrenching.
00:16:11
NextGen Matters
So I pivoted after 2020 to, instead of trying to think about outreach as much, which I know that might sound heretical. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I wanted to increase group leaders increase their capacity, try to recruit more, train more so that we could support the students there properly, disciple them because if they're being discipled properly, they're going to be sharing the gospel to their friends. And that's what growth happens. It's not, yeah that's the fruit of it. So small groups is everything. I think, and I think we're really seeing this now that kids are really hungry right now and they don't care about the the bells and the whistles, the the fog, the lights. We're seeing that with 20 somethings. I mean, and even beneath, You're what, Danielle, they just have left their church and God's them different ministry. But Danielle was actually on staff as the young adults director their church.
00:17:05
NextGen Matters
She was seeing in 20-somethings. We have seen this here in 2026, the last few years, of young adults wanting more of that, almost like, to use the phrase, simple church model. yes They just want they want worship. They want authentic time in the Word. They want connections. yes And that's also true because I'm been here, the 11th, 12th grade guys, i'm go i meet I met with them this morning. and our senior i'm jet They want the same thing. that But see, I was Gen X and I think when I was at that age, church was, if I just can put an over-generalized statement out there, boring.
00:17:37
NextGen Matters
So when we saw worship being a little bit more upbeat, when we saw more exciting things happening, more creative things happening, there was this genuine yearning to see that.
00:17:48
NextGen Matters
But now i think that's almost swung too far. and now this generation you know right now is currently running back to the authentic worship, stripped back.
00:18:01
NextGen Matters
I know they crave reverence and they don't even realize it. Because when they see it, they're like, OK, something here is different. there's something different than, than, and and I love high energy. I love all that yeah stuff, but there's a craving for reverence. There's a craving for authenticity. right And you know that authenticity has always been at play, but now more than ever, there's more reverence, more authenticity and kind and connection.
00:18:24
NextGen Matters
That's really what everything should be focused on. So let's jump back into the the front door. We have a, in my terminology, four levels of ministry, entry, then evangelism, then edify, then equip. That's how I process through things at UNF for me back before I was Doc Brown for you, just
Risks of Program Overemphasis
00:18:45
NextGen Matters
back to Rich kind of thing. Our front door, entry point, the entry level, then the sharing the gospel, the evangelism side.
00:18:51
NextGen Matters
But sometimes what we forget is that the growth side of the edify. Indoor within, we forget to teach them how to do ministry and provide opportunities, thus the equip. Or we focus just on the back end of just edifying equip and we don't have a heart and passion and ministry mindset for the lost. All we got to do is balance the airplane. Just balance that out, making sure we're doing something on both counts. So for you guys, you are seeing that, okay, we've got a lot of...
00:19:19
NextGen Matters
focused attention on the outreach side, as the the the church roster, the student roster is getting larger, but we don't have enough adults, is that what i'm hearing, to really shepherd well the roster, the students, is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, because small groups would be 12 to 16.
00:19:35
NextGen Matters
That's not a small group, that's a youth ministry. Exactly. mean, the average youth group in this country is usually less than that. You can't really disciple that many kids. Not even as a youth pastor. Not disciple. Yeah, exactly. So yes, we would always run into that problem. And then when groups are so big, they want to stay together you split and they get mad and it's difficult. So what did you guys do?
00:19:56
NextGen Matters
Well, we continued to try to recruit more and we wanted to give, we did allow more time for groups. So in the structure, so in the structure, lives despite all that, yes. Conversational. Yes. So, okay. Gotcha. You know, instead of like an hour for program and a half hour for groups, we tried to bring balance 45 minutes for program tops.
00:20:17
NextGen Matters
And then we actually wanted an hour and 15 for groups. So you would have time to break the eyes, you know, with guys, go throw the football around for a few minutes just to kind of make make some some genuine connection. By the way, what's the biggest thing you see here out the main hallway?
00:20:33
NextGen Matters
Nine square. Nine square. Yeah. Those dudes are lined up. The girls and the guys both. no But it's just a common experience and it's lot of fun. So we had an hour and 15 dedicated groups. we're not saying throw that away. we're not saying, no, none of it.
00:20:46
NextGen Matters
We just needed to prioritize group time more and then we were working so hard to just get more leaders so they could come in, we could get the groups. The ideal size is probably five to seven. yeah That's kind of like once you hit eight, nine, ten, it's just too hard for one adult to really...
00:21:02
NextGen Matters
get into their lives. Even from a conversational dynamic, from anyone who's, even in the counseling field or any kind of small group, whether it's faith-based or not, exactly that's just a group dynamic. You get past six. yeah it's There's not room for the others to talk because you always have the alphas to dominate and that's a whole other conversation, but still.
00:21:22
NextGen Matters
But then to truly even go beyond conversational spiritual talk to then truly discipleship, it's probably even a tighter circle. And we're not going to really in this episode unpack true, what we think traditional discipleship.
00:21:38
NextGen Matters
Doug Frank and leadership shres you know type discipleship, which that's a shout out to Doug, by the way. He's friendly. But Peter... Sometimes people can hear us talking and think, so you guys are against structure, right? No. Let's think of some things that where intentional structure, ministry structure is beneficial.
00:21:57
NextGen Matters
So bring me into the conversation of why does it benefit us? Well, I think, I think students like the safety and security of order and structure. I think if there, if, you know, if you don't start when you say you're going start and you don't end when you say you're going end, slowly kids figure that out and then they start becoming a little bit more,
00:22:17
NextGen Matters
you know They might then come late. or you know so when you're There's very muchs a lot of value in being structured so that they have they know what they're getting into. that so there's that That's a huge benefit in and of itself.
00:22:31
NextGen Matters
It also helps your volunteers because you know if everybody's late to a meeting, then they're not going to take it seriously. because the meaning the pre-service meeting is really important just to get everybody's head in the game pray same page yeah get everybody on the same page and help them focus okay for the next hour or two hours you know we're here for these students yeah so intentionality and structure is huge right because it helps everybody get on the same page and their safety and security in that and when you're
00:23:05
NextGen Matters
focused on a specific goal you can then meet that goal and how do we best meet that goal it's reverse engineering so even that particular night wednesday night sunday night sunday morning whatever in your cultural context of ministry what is my main goal for that night even you as a speaker tonight with us you have one main point right and that's that's true just not for as a speaker it's also for the whole structure what's that one main point for the evening Then we back up and go to how going to meet that goal. So there is a benefit to structure. If you don't want have structure, then why do we have traffic lights? Yeah, exactly. do we have curbs? We have to have healthy boundaries, and that's all they are. It's like we want keep God's ministry moving further, faster.
00:23:48
NextGen Matters
But what are some of the dangers of structure? Yeah, and let me just say one more point. sure. positive Please do. We don't go into the dangers. You know, we show up on time and excited for something we're serious about.
00:24:01
NextGen Matters
So, you know, students can know if we're, you know, if we're late or if we're, you running past deadlines, students will know something's off here. yeah They won't be able put their finger on. But if it's something we're passionate about and mean something to us, then we will be on time. We will be structured.
00:24:17
NextGen Matters
The dark side of it. That's a good question. Well, I mean, the obviously the biggest one is we can spend way too much time behind our desk thinking of the next big opener or the next big giveaway or the next big secular song that we need to try to figure out how to weave into you know service how to redeem it yeah how to redeem it dena that's the word redeemed the next secular song so you know the the temptation is i can just it's so much sorry my mind goes back to 20 years ago daring to move switch foot exactly we gotta use i mean it's crucial matter we gotta use it all the time anyway you know because it on the
00:24:57
NextGen Matters
No, but the dark side is it's, let's be honest. Yeah. Is it easier to disciple students or build a program? Right. It's way easier to build a program than actually get and do the messy work of ministry. Sometimes, you know, students get in the way of our program. I know, right?
00:25:14
NextGen Matters
ministry be so People would love youth ministry. It's just for those teenagers. Yes. Ministry be so much easier without anybody in it. you know So that's the dark side. of there There's a problem about that says where there's no oxygen the crib is clean. Yeah, no people no problems. Right? Anyway, so yes, the negative side i already mentioned it.
00:25:32
NextGen Matters
We start using people to make us look good. God forbid. There's a phrase I kind of came up with back years ago it was like pastors build people Pharaoh's built pyramids. good.
00:25:46
NextGen Matters
That's exactly Pharaohs built what? Like these iconic structures so you could so look at, you know, over generations, look back and go, oh, that was King Tut's, you know, pyramid.
00:25:58
NextGen Matters
Long live King Tut. No, the dude's bones are in there and the dude is, without Jesus, he's in a different place called hell. Okay, so the point is, Pharaohs were using people to build legacies for themselves and I'm so afraid, Peter Pizzuto, that We see it in lead pastors and we see it in student pastors. We're all sometimes cons consumed about, I've got make myself look good, which honestly comes out of our own insecurity.
00:26:25
NextGen Matters
Yeah. It really, yeah. you you know If there's any validation to be had through growing a ministry, then that's that's an opportunity to press pause because it's not for us. It's not about us. We're not to, you know, find validation in what we do. So my identity,
00:26:44
NextGen Matters
is not in being pastor rich. And the last year of me teaching residentially, I told my senior students and Ryan, my son was actually in that class. There was those God, Holy Spirit driven moments. I said, guys, there may come a day when I'm no longer teaching, when I'm no longer called it Doc Brown.
00:27:02
NextGen Matters
That's not my identity. And I had no idea, prophetically speaking, of a restructure to take place to when many of us lost our positions because of because of finances. And I had to really not walk that back.
00:27:17
NextGen Matters
I'll lean into it and go, yes, my identity is in Christ. What I do is my calling. But my identity,
00:27:27
NextGen Matters
I wake up and and talk to him every day. I wake up and I say, thank you, Lord, for another day. living in beautiful central Virginia, driving over here to church this morning, mountains are gorgeous, beautiful sunny days. I said, Lord, thank you. I get to serve you by loving on students today. That was not a professorial thing or a pastoral thing, just because I wanted to be with these students.
00:27:50
NextGen Matters
I think when we lose that, what happens? Right. Well, and you know, he's going to have different assignments for us along the way. Yeah. Yeah. So we can reach whoever he needs us to in whatever timeline that he needs. yeah and it's hard and So that's such a good point. like it's you know we we We can't get lost in trying to accomplish something or do something with the people. What we're called to do, we already be good stewards, but that is not who we are.
00:28:20
NextGen Matters
And I think, unfortunately, that's one of the dark sides of the program is because we're the program director and thump the chest look at us. And that's that's dangerous. Another thing I think is dangerous too, from my perspective, is that we lose sight of the
Long-term Faith Development in Youth
00:28:34
NextGen Matters
main thing.
00:28:35
NextGen Matters
And we've already been alluding to it even saying it. And that is this, what did we sincerely try and accomplish? Paul, the apostle Paul says in Galatians 4 verse 19, he talks to the Galatian people and he says,
00:28:46
NextGen Matters
I struggle so much to see you growing in Jesus. He uses the phrase of a mother giving birth to a child. He says how he wants to see Christ being formed in you.
00:28:56
NextGen Matters
that we That's what breaks your heart, listener, is you when you see a student who's wavering in their faith, waffling in their faith. Oh, I think I'm starting to deconstruct. Your heart is breaking. because it's not about you. It's about they're they're struggling with Jesus and that because of your love for Jesus, that's breaking your heart because you want them to experience the freedom and forgiveness of Jesus at the center.
00:29:21
NextGen Matters
You want to see Christ formed in them. My life verse is Colossians 1 20 29 that we would preach Jesus to see them become totally conformed to his image.
00:29:32
NextGen Matters
That's why we have a structure to build The students. And we have those small groups to see Jesus truly formed in them.
00:29:45
NextGen Matters
I think the real test where are they going to be in 10 years? Yeah. Yeah. And there's a verse. Did you catch that? Where are they going to be in 10 years? Right. And we with most of us now listening have been in ministry a long time.
00:29:57
NextGen Matters
Well, and I'd love to come back and have another conversation with you because I'm working out with an organization that is thinking of the 10 years and what happens when they leave high school. Right. Because, you know, back to your question, like, what are we trying to accomplish? Yep. Yep. A verse that's really stuck out to me. One of my favorite books of the Bible is Ecclesiastes, which I say that and that's ironic because it's a very depressing book.
00:30:20
NextGen Matters
But just finished listening to it today. yeah that my dry vote But you know, King Solomon, the guy who was, you know, the wisest guy who ever lived, he had everything. And then he asked God, God asked him, what do you want? And he asked for wisdom and God gave it to him. So he had the supernatural wisdom and he writes this book and you know, at the end of his life, he's done everything there is all that the world has to offer. And he says, Ecclesiastes 12, one, remember your creator in the days of your youth.
00:30:48
NextGen Matters
So it'd be like you know sitting down with your grandpa and asking him, hey, what's the most important thing I can do as a teenager? And he's saying, remember him when you're young. And he talks a couple of verses later about seeking knowledge and seeking God. Yes. Seeking knowledge of God and seeking God. Yeah.
00:31:04
NextGen Matters
So there's something that, you know, what am I trying to accomplish as a student pastor? It was all about making sure that they have a personal connection with Jesus and remember him while they're young.
00:31:15
NextGen Matters
because if they can do that Jesus will shape the trajectory of their life so we're going to be in 10 years that and even with these upper level these high school guys I have I'm really speaking into them and I said I'm not calling you boys I'm calling you men I said do not look in the rear mirror of your lives look in the front windshield be thinking as you're leaving a junior seniors now you know this is summertime it's a recording as you're stepping into your senior year or your junior year before you know you're out of high school I want them to be positioned to embrace an adult walk with Jesus. Come on. And I think that's that's Mike McGarry. Shout out to Mike on that. Speaks so much of that.
00:31:57
NextGen Matters
Youth ministry theologian. If you follow Pastor Mike, he's an incredible guy. And he talks a lot about that. Our goal is not to raise godly teenagers, it's to raise godly adults. Matter of fact, to help with that, this is random, but it's not. So in two hours, right after your session, my wife and are meeting with the parents of the students.
00:32:16
NextGen Matters
Not sure if you can hear this in the background, I hope you can't, but they're practicing for lip sync contests right now. That's i actually worship. The lip sync competition. Oh, that's worship. for her They're getting the worship on. Yeah. But I'm saying during the lip sync, the last event of the weekend, Janet and I are meeting with the parents to talk through how just encouraging them, how they can carry forth what they've been learning from you on i'll review your content with them and then speak into that, speak into their lives, how to encourage them to help their own adolescent go further faster with the gospel. Yeah. And that, again, that doesn't, sound that may sound to you like, well, that, what does it have to do with this conversation?
00:32:53
NextGen Matters
Everything, everything, because we're Ephesians for the church. raising up mature followers of Jesus. Ephesians 6, dads, moms speaking to the lives of their children, their true admonition of the Lord.
00:33:04
NextGen Matters
Yeah, you'll like this. yeah You love baseball. You know I love baseball. So, you know, I see youth pastors. We're a relief pitcher. The parents are the ones who are the starters. Okay.
00:33:18
NextGen Matters
So if we can equip parents, they're the ones that are in the game with their students so much more. Now a relief pitcher, we can make a difference. But the more connection we have with parents just goes back to the whole discipleship side of things.
00:33:32
NextGen Matters
Yeah. See what i'm saying? Yeah. and let's go further with that. Great way. i never heard that before. But who usually makes it in the Hall of Fame? Starting pitchers or relief pitchers? Who are they going to remember more?
00:33:44
NextGen Matters
Well, there goes the mic. Who are they going to remember is parents. So much more than us. Yes. So much more than us. We can set the parents up with some success as much as we can. It makes all the difference. That's right. That's right.
00:33:59
NextGen Matters
You're going into a new ministry. You've actually started it. Take us through that a little bit because this actually calibrates into what we're talking about. Yeah. And then I'd love to come on and talk all about it. but We're going to unpack that more, but just give us quick version. I got my master's in apologetics because I really love helping students answer the why question.
00:34:19
NextGen Matters
If they've grown up in church, they know the why. They've heard the Bible stories. They know all the things. So if they've grown up in church, it's time for them as a teenager to understand the why if they're not going to turn away from their faith because they're going to get challenged yeah in college or the workforce or whatever. So we want to start preparing them for that now.
00:34:37
NextGen Matters
And if they haven't grown up in church, even better. We want to answer their questions. absolutely So I work for Why to Believe. We are strategic partners with Liberty University where theology students can go and work with our organization and go be a free resource to churches. So we can come in, we can speak one night, four nights, we can do Bible study. It doesn't matter. It's whatever the youth pastor needs.
00:34:59
NextGen Matters
We can just be a support for them. They can, you know, have a couple of weeks off. We come in and we have some. Yeah. And you guys are coming to be four weeks with us. Yes. Yeah. Fall. Yeah. So. Yeah. so yeah I'm passionate about helping students deepen their faith. That's what we do. Also give them a couple of tools and questions to help them share their faith in a less intimidating way and winsome way.
00:35:20
NextGen Matters
Yeah. I love the way it's packaged too. It's framed up as winsome. In other words, 1 Peter 3.15, the third part of the verse is forgotten and do it with gentleness and respect. That seems to be sometimes forgotten. We owned the fill the blank. It's not about owning somebody.
00:35:39
NextGen Matters
It's about helping them understand who Jesus is. yeah Speaking God's truth. Revealing God through, know. It's easier to try to win a debate. Setting apart Christ the Lord in your heart. Then it says, yeah being able to give a defense of the hope you have followed with It's easier to argue and win and debate than do that. yeah And actually listen to someone. Gentleness and respect. Listen to somebody's story, but also then weave in Jesus. so This is all about seeing our students strengthen.
00:36:06
NextGen Matters
We want to see our students strengthen.
Conclusion and Future Topics
00:36:10
NextGen Matters
It starts with, I love Matthew 11, where Jesus says, come unto me.
00:36:16
NextGen Matters
What a declarative messianic statement. Come unto me. He's declaring deity. Come unto me, all of you who are weary and heavy hearted. I will give you rest.
00:36:28
NextGen Matters
That's salvation. A call to salvation. Take my yoke upon you. That's discipleship language. That culture knew that. A yoke of bondage of slavery to Egypt. they That Jewish listener knew that language. Take my yoke upon you.
00:36:42
NextGen Matters
Justification. i love this. And learn from me sanctification. All in one verse. Yeah. Coming to faith in Christ is the beginning, not the end.
00:36:54
NextGen Matters
It's the beginning, it's the birth of that relationship. Peter, we get to be part of their lives. Listener, you are part of their life. You are you are a voice of God's influence. You are an ambassador just to law students. You're an ambassador representing him to believing students. We are em as parents. Paul David Tripp always uses that language. Just finished one of his books recently. We are ambassadors to the body as well as to the unbeliever.
00:37:23
NextGen Matters
get to represent Jesus. So hey, as you walk into your next youth ministry opportunity or children's ministry or your young adult leader, That should fire you up. You get the chance to be that relief pitcher. Yes. And potentially a pivotal part of the game when the game is won or lost. It can save a game. Yes. And not even the ninth inning. Come on. Yes. Seventh inning. It's called high leverage, right? Baseball talk right here. see I know my game. I know my game. say High leverage pitching.
00:37:48
NextGen Matters
The game is one or lost now always baseball in the ninth inning. Many times it's a six or seven. Basketball, unless you're Spurs. My next just one little thing. So he's going for the Spurs. Sometimes it's not always just one in the fourth quarter, unless you're Jalen Brunson. Sometimes it's one in the first or second quarter. Yeah. Football, the same thing. In other words,
00:38:09
NextGen Matters
God has put you that time in that student's life for such a time as this. Rise up. Rise up. Thank you, Father in heaven. He's called you to do this.
00:38:20
NextGen Matters
And now let's go make a difference. Peter, thank you so much for the time, brother. Absolutely. All right. Don't knock the mic over. Very good. I got you this time. Great to hang out with you. Great conversation. Yeah, you man. We're going to bring you back to talk about why to believe. I think students go from what?
00:38:33
NextGen Matters
How's this, Yo? They go from what to so what? And they also have that why question. Yeah. But that boredom thing, so what? Does it really matter? Yeah. Wow, there's a lot more to unpack with this. let's Let's do that soon. Okay, guys. Hey, thanks again for listening. Remember, your ministry matters and your leadership matters because the gospel matters. So keep pressing on for the kingdom of Jesus' sake.
00:38:55
NextGen Matters
Thank you for listening and have a great week. See you guys.