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Ep 31. Clean Run: Detoxing the Running Jacket I Part 1 - Fibre and Fabric with Jeanne Begon-Lours and Khorceska Batyrova
2 Playsin 51 minutes
Have you taken a close look at the label on your running jacket? It probably mentions a list of materials such as nylon, polyester, elastane — but what it doesn't say is that these materials are born from fossil fuels, made with toxic chemistry, and designed in a way that makes them almost impossible to recycle or break down at the end of their life.
In this first episode of Clean Run, host Mili Tharakan takes an ordinary running jacket bought from the high street and deconstructs it — layer by layer, fabric by fabric — to ask: what would it look like if we rebuilt it from scratch, without the petrochemicals and toxins that are so embedded in performance wear today?
To answer that question, Mili is joined by three founders who are each replacing one of the jacket's core fossil-fuel derived fibres with something radically different.
Guests:
Hitesh Manglani, CEO & Founder of SuperCarb — processing sugar molecules from seaweed and food waste into a high-performance polyester alternative that is inherently antibacterial, flame retardant, and free from microplastic shedding.
Jeanne Begon-Lours, CEO & Co-founder of Tera Mira — developing the world's first fully bio-based elastane alternative made from seaweed, designed to replace the hidden villain that blocks recycling in almost every garment made today.
Khorceska Batyrova, CEO & Co-founder of OzoneBio — turning wood waste and nutshells into bio-based Nylon 66, producing the same high-performance fibre without the toxic adipic acid manufacturing process that releases nitrous oxide — a gas 300 times more damaging than CO₂.
Not petrochemicals but organic waste is the new raw material. Wood bark, nutshells, seaweed, citrus peels — the feedstocks these founders are using are things the world produces in enormous quantities and currently throws away. The running jacket of the future may well start in a forest floor or a food processing facility.
In this episode:
- Why nylon, polyester and elastane are so dominant in performance wear — and what makes them so hard to walk away from
- How bio-based materials can match the performance of petroleum-based fibres — and where the trade-offs still exist
- The chicken-and-egg problem of scale that every material innovator faces with large brands
- What it actually takes to bring three new materials together into a single garment
- Honest reflections on favourite failures, founder wellbeing, and what keeps these innovators going
The Clean Run series is inspired by the Performance Without Toxicity exhibition, curated by The Mills Fabrica in partnership with Goldwin, open until 26th June 2026 at Fabrica X in London. Entry is free.
Clean Run is a three-part series. Episode 2 explores the hidden chemistry of finishing — the dyes, coatings, and construction decisions that can undermine even the cleanest fibre
Connect with Mili Tharakan: LinkedIn I Insta I Buy me a coffee I Website
If you enjoyed this, please share the episode with a friend or colleague. Subscribe and leave a review, I love to hear your feedback and it helps others discover this podcast
Cover art: Photo by Siora, Photography on Unsplash
Music: Inspired Ambient, Orchestraman
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Transcript
Environmental Impact of Running Jackets
00:00:14
Speaker
This is an ordinary running jacket. You can buy one just like it almost in any sports shop today. It's lightweight, it stretches, it repels water. and When you're done with your run, you chuck it in for a wash and pick it up again for your next run.
00:00:28
Speaker
Every time you wear a running jacket, you're wearing a product built almost entirely from fossil fuel derived materials. The nylon that gives it structure, the polyester that lines the pocket, the elastane that makes it move with your body.
00:00:43
Speaker
Materials that work brilliantly on the trail, but it comes with a hidden cost most of us never see. It's in the chemistry used to make it, it's in what it releases when we wash it, and in what happens to it when it's worn out.
Introduction to Clear Run Series
00:00:56
Speaker
This is Clear Run, a three-part series that takes an ordinary running jacket and asks a single question. What would it look like if we rebuilt it from scratch without the petrochemicals and toxins that are so commonly present?
00:01:10
Speaker
Across three episodes, we follow the running jacket from its fiber and fabrics all the way to the end of its life, meeting the innovators who are radically rethinking each layer, the materials, the chemistry, construction, care and recovery.
00:01:24
Speaker
Clean Run is inspired by the Performance Without Toxicity exhibition, exploring sustainable and circular innovations in performance wear. And in this series, we will dive deep to unpack some of the solutions that are showcased here.
00:01:36
Speaker
The exhibition is curated by Mills Fabrica in partnership with Goldwyn Innovations. It is open until 26 June, 2026 in London. So if you're in the city, please, please, please don't miss it. You will absolutely love it. It is fantastic.
Innovators in Sustainable Textiles
00:01:51
Speaker
I'm Millie Tharakin, and this is No Ordinary Cloth, where we stitch together a rich tapestry of innovations bubbling up at the intersection of textiles, emerging technology, craft and sustainability. Join me today for a glimpse into the future of performance wear.
00:02:07
Speaker
Today we start at the very beginning, looking at the various fibers and fabric this jacket is made from. And joining me are three young innovators who are taking one of the most stubborn corners of the materials industry, the fossil fuel-derived fibers that have powered active wear for decades and that have gone largely unchallenged until now. These three radical disruptors are cleaning up sportswear from the ground up.
00:02:33
Speaker
Hitesh Manglani, Jeanne Bigon-Lure and Korcheska Batirova. Welcome to No Ordinary Cloth. I'm thrilled to have you here. i have so many questions for all of you. But before we dive in, let's do a quick round of introductions. And since you're joining in from three countries, let's do a 30 second little trip around the world.
00:02:53
Speaker
and introduce ourselves. Jen, I know you're based in London, but currently you are somewhere much warmer and lovelier. Tell us where you are and give us a quick introduction to yourself and Terra Mira.
00:03:06
Speaker
Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for the invitation on this podcast. I'm very excited. And yes, I'm currently in Singapore. And yes, I'm French woman living in London for the past seven years and was always very much interested in tackling closed ways. And that's kind of from conversations and, know, experience, tumble into understanding the problem with elastane. And that's why now with Dania, how we are turning seaweed into stretchy fibres. to replace that elastin
Seaweed and Wood Waste Innovations
00:03:37
Speaker
that blocks after it used to be recycled and now of course dependent on the fossil fuel.
00:03:43
Speaker
Brilliant. And what's the weather like? Tell us what temperature is there. ah Right now I think it's like around the 5 minutes in the evening but during the day it was about like 30 degrees, 28, very humid and and it's sweaty. Wow. It's really wild. I know it's in midnight there so thank you for joining us and we'll try and not keep you up too late. or early into the morning. Great. So moving west, flying well past and over London. We go quite far up north this time. Now to Koyczewska. You have probably just had your breakfast and starting your day. Tell us where you are and give us a quick introduction to yourself and OzoneBio.
00:04:22
Speaker
Hello, everyone. My name is Korczewska. I'm CEO and co-founder Ozone Bio. We are based in Calgary. It's a city in Alberta. We're a Canadian company. What we do, we start with wood waste and nutshells and upcycle them into the new product stream. Our first hero product is bio-based nylon 6x, high-performance material that's used everywhere, from the textiles to car parts. and we're the only company in the world producing it out of the nutshells and the wood waste. We're currently at the one-ton scale per year and successfully passed all the trials in the textile industry. I'm excited to bring our bio-based nylon into the high-performance outwear very much soon.
00:05:09
Speaker
Excellent. And what's the weather like in Calgary? ah You'll be surprised. Today's like plus 10, plus 11. It's nice. Nice. yeah Brilliant. Okay, now moving a little bit further west, but more south, we have Hithesh, who has made an early start on a Friday morning for us. i Hope it's not too early for you. Tell us where you're based and give us a very quick introduction to yourself and Supercarb.
00:05:34
Speaker
Thanks, Millie. Great to be on this podcast. Thank you for inviting me. ah So my name is Itesh Manglani. I'm the CEO and founder of Supercarp. We are a California-based material science company. We are basically upcycling sugar molecules from seaweed and citrus peels into high-performance fibers. These fibers have very unique properties. You know, they're anti- ah they are flame retardant, antibacterial, fast drying. So they have the ability to eliminate a lot of toxic chemistries and they don't rely on petrochemicals that most of these sportswear jackets are made of.
00:06:08
Speaker
I actually come from a textiles family. ah My dad has been running a retail store for 35 years. And so I have a very deep and personal relationship with this field. You know, I grew up with his inventory in the bedroom I slept. And so, yeah, I'm really excited to be building this company.
00:06:24
Speaker
And so far, the journey has been pretty rewarding. Of course, like it's very challenging, but, you know, rewarding at the same time. Excellent. We're going to dive into all three of your materials and what they're all about, but love it.
Material Composition of Running Jackets
00:06:37
Speaker
Great start. So each of you bring a different ingredient to the table, right? One that could potentially find its way into a running jacket in the future. So I went to the high street and picked up a a popular running jacket from a very well-known brand. And I thought we'd use it as our as our anchor for today's conversation and a way to understand what your materials could replace and what that shift might mean for how performance wear is made in the future. So here's the here the different materials that was listed on the label of this particular running jacket. So on the body, there were three parts. The face, which had 85% nylon, 50% elastane. middle, which was polyurethane. and the back, which was polyester, Then it had the side panels, which was nylon, lycra elastane. And the pocket lining was polyester that was recycled.
00:07:29
Speaker
So I'll admit, this was the first time I've ever really looked so closely at the label of a running jacket. And it really genuinely surprised me. There were so many different fabrics at play here, layered on top of each other, and I guess each doing a very specific job. I was really pleased to spot the recycled polyester in there, but it was only used in the pocket lining, which is such a small part of the jacket. And...
00:07:50
Speaker
the back panel had 95% polyester, but which wasn't recycled. so I was wondering like, why, how do they make these decisions? And maybe we can get into a bit of that later. But what struck me the most though, is just how complex a product like a running jacket is, which when you use it, you really don't think about it.
00:08:07
Speaker
So let's do what this series is set out to do. Deconstruct this jacket layer by layer and see how we might build it back up cleaner and without the toxins. So we're going to start with the nylon. It makes up 85% of the face fabric of this jacket and 82% of the side panels. Korcheska, can you tell us why nylon is often used in sportswear and running jackets? And why do we love nylon so much in activewear?
00:08:34
Speaker
Just very quick history remark. Nylon was developed about 100 years ago by DuPont. It was a very surprisingly ah very good innovation. When nylon was first and developed, the cost was more expensive than silk and it started from women's tights. So the nylon has a very unique properties as a polymer. So basically it's very strong, but at the same time, when you spin nylon and make thread out of it, even very thin thread, like 50 denier or 40 denier, it will be still very strong. Unlike other materials like polyester, elastane and so on. So nylon is one of the most strongest polymers that humankind ever created. And it has high plasticity, high quality strength. And that's one of the reasons why it's applied so massively in the sportswear, in the high performance sportswear, especially in the brands that care about their quality and the performance.
00:09:36
Speaker
um So when we see nylon, you think, oh it's a good thing because it it performs really well and it's high quality, right? Exactly. Yes. Yes, it's exactly that's the thing. if like If you're looking for the good pants, yoga pants or a jacket, look for a content like nylon, most of it mixed with other materials.
00:09:54
Speaker
Why is conventional nylon problematic? What is it made from or why should we be worried about nylon and what happens to it at the end of its life with our conventional nylon?
Challenges and Solutions in Nylon Production
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's the thing. A lot of people don't actually know that production of nylon is one of the most toxic productions in the world and it's not really... being addressed at all. Right now, all of it is made from petrochemicals. And what happens is nylon consists of two monomers. It's HMD, hexamethylenediamine, and adipic acid. And one of the most toxic one is production of the adipic acid. Adipic acid is made from cyclohexanone, just briefly. And then it's used in the conventional production nitric acid. Nitric acid is used to make adipic acid. So its side product is nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide as a gas.
00:10:49
Speaker
300 times more toxic than CO2. And currently most of the production of the adipic acid is sits in Asia and basically all the nitrous oxide that released is not being filtered or abated. It's technically just released into the upper layers of atmosphere which where that gas stays about 100 years. So 300 times more toxic nitrous oxide than CO2 stays in upper layers of atmosphere, destroying our ozone layer leads to the climate changes. So that's the problem of the production of the conventional petrochemical nylon.
00:11:28
Speaker
And a lot of companies been trying to produce it bio-based, produce it sustainably. and But the thing is, the molecule is very tricky and needs really high quality, high purity to have high performance.
00:11:43
Speaker
Wow. I've worked in the textile industry for a very long time and I've never known anything or heard about adipic acid at all. And it's shocking to find out that it was such a a big part of our industry. So tell us now, how is ozone bio solving this problem? Walk us through your material, how it's different. um The unique thing about our technology and our process is that we are not trying to find an alternative molecule because we know nylon has a very unique properties and you need to fit that performance um its characteristics and impurity. So what we've been targeting, we were trying to produce the same adipic acid, same chemistry, same chemical formula, but making it sustainable and bio-based using second generation of feedstocks. So what we achieved, we actually not using sugar or food as a feedstock. We're using waste, wood bark and nutshells. And we upcycle this waste streams using pyrolysis. And the side product of the pyrolysis is bio oil, where bio oil goes into the our process of green chemistry. And from bio oil, we take it all the way to the adipic acid, high purity above 98%. that goes further on into the polymerization of nylon 6-6. So the way we're making it is fully emission-free. We're not producing any harmful emissions except oxygen. We actually make a lot of oxygen as a side product of our um green process, and we're starting it from the wood waste. But we're not making anything different. We're actually we're targeting
00:13:20
Speaker
exact the same performance characteristics. So what we were able to achieve is fully bio-based out of the ah wood waste, adipic acid, same chemistry, high purity that was further on used for the polymerization to nylon. And our nylon, our textile has same performance characteristics as a petroleum-based, but emission-free and the bio-based. So that was a groundbreaking achievement for us in the last basically three months.
00:13:47
Speaker
It's pretty new. That is so exciting. Two questions here. Where do you source your wood waste or nutshell waste from? And maybe a silly one, does the type of wood or nutshell, does that impact the quality of the adipic acid and the nylon you're able to produce?
00:14:04
Speaker
ah So we're located in Canada. It's actually one of our strategic locations. Canada is rich in amount of the wood waste. We're sourcing it from Northern Ontario and the We can use wood chips, we can use wood bark, whatever is leftovers in the wood processing facilities. We actually don't really care about the type of the wood. We like birch.
00:14:24
Speaker
Birch is the most like useful for us, but we right now getting any type of wood. And in terms of nutshells, um we're getting it also from Ontario, from the company Ferrero. They've been providing us cocoa nutshells.
00:14:38
Speaker
um We can take any ah other nutshells except pistachio shells. It's like pretty low content, lignin content in pistachio shells, and but it still would serve as a feedstock and just the yield of the adipic acid will be lower because we're targeting lignin as a feedstock for adipic acid and our process.
00:15:01
Speaker
So when a product designer chooses your material instead of conventional nylon, what might feel different? You said the performance is exactly the same, but is the cost the same? Is the feel the same or is it almost like for like?
00:15:15
Speaker
Quality is exactly the same, feel is exactly the same, fit the same performance characteristics. Like it's so pretty much identical to the petroleum base in the standard deviation variation. so in terms the The price is definitely at the scale we're at would be higher because we're producing right now in our pilot scale only one ton per year. That would qualify as a premium material. However, as we scale up, as we get into the bigger production scale, definitely the price will drop. And right now, if you see what's happening, oil prices,
00:15:50
Speaker
prices fluctuations due to the ah conflict. And that's always going to be the case in the in the world, the instability of the supply chain. And because we take targeting wood waste as a feedstock, we're quite ah well backed up in Canada. So the fluctuations and the price point, we actually might be, who knows, in the near future, much more competitive with the petroleum-based Olympic asset in terms of the price. Depends on the price of oil, basically. What's been the biggest technical challenge you've had to solve to make this work at the performance that is required for the industry, for example, to be used in a running jacket that we spoke about? Yeah, we we we needed to, first of all, we needed obviously to work on the improving the yields of our process because the higher yields, the higher purity eventually. So we jumped technically in the beginning of the last year. We've still been in the kilogram scale. And within one year, we jumped like to one ton scale per year because we were able to improve the yields of the process. And that required a lot of brainstorming and technical development. And I would say the main criteria to get into the application of nylon, because nylon is very tricky material for polymerization, Needs to be like really polymerized to the quality of very nice polymer. That was one of the innovations that DuPont made like 100 years ago. So it's a tricky, tricky polymer. So we had to have high purity adipic acid that we're talking about, like above 98%. which most of the bio-based producing companies failed to provide previously, and they never had a high yield. So, yeah, so the biggest development is high purity adipic acid and high yield out of the bio-based feedstock that was so unique for us.
00:17:42
Speaker
I mean, I guess all manufacturing processes have waste streams. What waste streams do you produce and how is that processed? You mentioned oxygen, you produce a lot of oxygen. Is there anything else that kind of goes out the door? Yeah, we we definitely, like I wouldn't call it waste streams. So what's happening is we take a lot of, we need a lot of wood to upcycle in order to produce adipic acid. So technically, For one ton of the adipic acid, we need at least 100 to 200 ton of wood waste. And a side product of virolysis in our case is syngas and biochar. bio It's actually both of these products for us right now in our current
00:18:20
Speaker
business model work as ah additional revenue streams. And in terms of like waste, we would have some fractions of bio oil that we do not use in our process. There are two ways we can address this. We either keep them and find the application because it's a type of solvents actually. that some industry can use, or they can be injected back into the ah ground and generate the carbon credits. So that's the waste streams that we're producing. But in terms of the quality of our green chemistry, the processes
00:18:56
Speaker
So interesting though. So one of the major waste streams would be back is water and oxygen. And like I said, some of the bio-oil side products that work as a solvents. And right now we're storing in the lab and my chemists are saying that, guys, we need to start selling it because this is like a good solvents.
00:19:19
Speaker
In terms of scale, you said you have you're producing one ton per year. When could brands really start adopting your material if they wanted to? And, you know, do you think seeing a material like this in a running jacket, is it five years out, two years out, 10 years out? What do you feel? no I think look it can be done immediately. So I'll give you a quick reference. So one, if you buy Lululemon yoga pants, the weight of that yoga pants would be around 300 grams.
00:19:49
Speaker
jacket would be around let's say 400 grams half of it is the adipic acid it's 50 percent like weight let's say it's 85 you just said like it's 85 90 percent nylon 50 it would be One ton of nylon, let's say, would make really good enough amount of jackets. So it's enough for the capsule production of a brand. It's also would be enough like for first limited edition of running jacket for the immediate adoption. So if we're talking about the massive application, supplying it to multiple ah brands, The go-to volume was for us, what we know is around 15 to 50 ton where they would feel comfortable. Some of them are enough like to take like 50 ton per year. So I would say we're very close to that level. Our next scale is actually around 50 ton per year. That's what we're looking targeting for our next demonstration scale. And we're looking to start producing, start like working closely with some champion brands, I would say, in the world that actually really care about the sustainability and adopting new materials very much within a year or so.
00:21:11
Speaker
So you'll be producing them nylon as fabric or are you working with yarn suppliers to get that made into fabric? Where do you plug into the supply chain?
00:21:23
Speaker
A good question is that we, at first, we started with making nylon chips, nylon pallets, and like we were trying to get into the collaboration with ah some of the brands. But for most of the brands, it's much easier to start with yarn. So right now, we work on both sides. We start with the brands that can control their supply chain and they know who is the yarn producer, who is a textile producer. And ah we also work on the other hand where we know the players in the supply chain and we supply some chips, nylon 6x, nylon pellets, and they can make yarn and then out of it textile. So that was ah one of the major achievements for us because we are chemical company and it was hard for us to navigate to make a textile. But what we've done, In the last three months, we were able to make a polymer, we're making yarn and then textile. It's ah just a reason that that's why we're able to present it in London in the Mills Fabrica event.
00:22:29
Speaker
I don't know if we talked about what happens to regular nylon at the end of its life, but what happens to your nylon at the end of its life? Same thing, what happens into with a regular basically nylon. Our nylon is not biodegradable. It's ah exactly the same performance as a petrochemical.
00:22:47
Speaker
nylon. And if there are some pioneers in in the area of recycling nylon, that would be great closed loop production. So our business is upstream. We're making it bio-based. We're not in the business of recycling that material. So if there are some pioneers or companies, I know some chemical companies that take nylon, for example, and they can do chemical recycling. And that's Not startups, it's ah actually chemical recycling of nylon been here for the last 50 years. A lot of ah carpet fiber that made out of nylon been recycled in the United States. So chemical recycling is here. And if there is a way to close the loop, awesome. We are not in the business of recycling.
00:23:37
Speaker
Try start doing that. But I would say we're as busy as it is upstream trying to figure out to produce it like emission-free. Yeah. I mean, there there is there's a startup um in London, Epoch Biodesign, that does nylon recycling. I think like also guys from Synthetica do that. Yes, that's right. I would say we don't really need to care about it. But if we want to close the loop, the process of chemical recycling is well established.
00:24:06
Speaker
And it's actually not really harmful in terms of environmental footprint. And there are a lot of compounding established chemical companies in the United States, they can do recycling of nylon. Where do you see the future of this particular technology in five to ten years time? So for us, we're not only nylon producing company. The thing is, because of the uniqueness of our technology and the opportunity to upcycle wood waste, like I said, producing WUTAR, we're positioning ourselves as a new generation chemical company. So what we do, what we're trying to do, and our vision is to replace conventional petroleum and oil with WUTAR. It was actually the movement about 100 years ago, but then petroleum prices went down and then all the developments in the sector of the wood tar upcycling and then producing chemicals out of the wood tar stuff. So what we're doing, we want to produce multiple chemicals out of the wood tar. Adipic acid is one of them. We already mastered that.
00:25:12
Speaker
Second chemical that we're already making is a vanilla extract out of the wood waste. We're also making some fragrances like eugenol. It's also food additive. And we already made a lot of solvents out of the wood waste that like methanol, we're also making acetic acid. So it's a multiple chemical streams that in the case of the supply chain destruction and the movement towards domestic location of chemical companies in United States or Canada, our company would be, like I said, well positioned as a new generation of future chemical producing companies. So that's our vision, one of them. And yes, first nice, beautiful hero product is the bio-based nylon, because it's been a hot topic for the lot of companies in the last almost 20 years. And we're basically the first who successfully produced a textile out of the bio-based alipic acid.
00:26:08
Speaker
I mean, there's a real need for this material in the textile industry and the industry has recognized that. So it's great to have you start with the textile industry. Thank you so much, Kracheska, for diving deeper into um Ozone Bio. We'll now move to Supercarb, which is a polyester replacement. This jacket has polyester in the lining and across the back panel, 90%, 95% of one layer.
00:26:33
Speaker
Again, before we get to the problem of polyester, can you tell us why polyester is a very, very, very commonly used material, not just in sportswear, but ah in fashion generally? What are the advantages of this materials? Would you have any statistics on how much polyester is used in sportswear
Polyester's Prevalence and Pollution
00:26:49
Speaker
or fashion?
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah, I will give you like my real experience. So I actually worked in textile mills across Thailand and South Carolina, which is the cotton belt of America. So I've been like deeply embedded into this industry from like actual manufacturing side, like where it's produced on like weaving looms and knitting machines. And so, you know,
00:27:09
Speaker
At those mills, like we were using cotton, polyester, wool, you know, cashmere, acrylic. And one thing that polyester is amazing at is strength. Polyester is so strong that it dramatically improves the efficiency and yield of all the machinery that is in the middle. When you're spinning the yarn, when you're weaving, when all of the yields in the machine production rate is so much higher, so you're really reducing the cost in the middle as well.
00:27:39
Speaker
You know, even like at the start of the material itself, like, you know, oil and gas is a $4.5 trillion dollar industry. The precursor for polyester is xylene, which is a byproduct of the big oil and gas industry. It's just a $200 billion dollars industry. Okay. It's a tiny drop in the bucket for this massive oil and gas industry. And so because it's a byproduct for them, this precursor is very cheap for the industry.
00:28:05
Speaker
They're trying to basically to make money on something that may not have made sense and way back in the past. Because, you know, if you think about the history of polyester, it has existed for some time, but the boom only happened in like 1990s. So, and like over the last 30,
00:28:22
Speaker
30 years or so, it has dramatically basically taken over the entire market. I believe, and this is, I think, an old statistic now, I think the current total production of fiber is set at around 130 million tons. I believe that the last I checked out of the 110 million tons reported couple of years back, 60% of this market was polyester.
00:28:44
Speaker
And it's projected that it's going to continue to go to like 70%. So I think polyester is going to squeeze out other fibers over time predominantly because, you know, it's extremely cheap. Our industry loves cheap and, you know, it's extremely strong. So it allows all the middle processes spinning, knitting, weaving, all of these processes to be extremely more efficient. So you reduce the cost and then the cost of the final product is extremely cheap as well. And so that's why it dominates the industry.
00:29:15
Speaker
Wow. I never thought about the machine efficiency as being such a big factor for why we have so much polyester. Really interesting. What is the problem with conventional polyester that we need to solve? So conventional polyester emits... Actually, the funny thing is that the carbon dioxide emissions from polyester is relatively not as big as people think it is. Actually, the impact of some of the other fibers in our industry is actually more dramatic, but because the volume of the polyester, it still makes a massive impact on you know the emissions in our industry. The biggest problem that comes with the polyester in industry is because it's so durable, it is very resistant to biodegrade. like It does not want to degrade at its end of life. And the other thing is that the fleeces that from Patagonia that people really love, you know those fleeces really break down into smaller microplastic. And the problem of microplastic is so prevalent, you know, like all four of us here have a tremendous amount of microplastic in our bodies, you know, ah there's generation after generation that's being born with microplastics in our body. And so, yeah, I think like to me, like the biggest problem with polyester is because it's so stable, it doesn't biodegrade it at its end of life. And during the use And even post-use, it ah continues to break down into tiny microfibers, you know, which all of us consume in our daily life now. And, you know, it's in a food, um you know, and it's in our body systems. And that has, you know, the long-term impact of like those tiny microplastic in our body hasn't been studied. and you know, new reports are continuing to come up with, of course, like Europe leading with a lot of regulations around those as well.
00:31:02
Speaker
So in the introduction, you said Supergob turns seaweed and food waste into high-performance
Supercarb's Antibacterial and Biodegradable Fibers
00:31:07
Speaker
textiles. Can you explain how this works and what the transformation process is and how this works, I guess, as a replacement for polyester?
00:31:15
Speaker
We fundamentally like focus on the sugar part of the food waste. So basically like every food has sort of five components. It has carbohydrates, it has proteins, it has oil, it has water, and then minerals and vitamins. And so what we do as a company is we are only focused on the carbohydrate part. specifically a chemical called uronic acid. It's very similar to c cellulose in its backbone. And one of the side chains is essentially displaced. One of the hydroxyl group is then displaced by a carboxylic group. And that basically occurs in a ton of food around the world. There's about like 1 trillion fresh food that's produced. And then out of that, you know a lot of our food is not just for fresh human consumption, which we don't touch. There's about...
00:31:59
Speaker
60%, 40, 40 to 60% of food that we are producing goes into industrial processing facility, depending on what food you're looking at. And those industrial processing facilities leave waste, you know, the peels and pomices and those industrial waste can be then used as an input in our material, in our process. So what we do is we use reactors to essentially segregate the carbohydrate portion. So we basically remove whatever we don't need out of the waste. And that carbohydrate portion then goes under chemical modification in our VET spinning process. So VET spinning is a technology that's commonly used. It's already scaled in you know fibers like Lyocell, Rayon, Viscos industry. And we use the similar kind of platform to basically chemically modify our carbohydrates into fibers. And then those fibers can then become ah yarns and fabrics that this postwear industry can use.
00:32:51
Speaker
So can you tell us some of the performance qualities of the yarns and fabrics that you're able to produce? Yeah. So one of the unique parts about our fiber is that it has inherent, you know, these performance attributes. So like, if you think about like polyesters and gortons the world, like these are very cheap substrates, right? They don't, they have some of their own benefits, of course. ah You know, it's hard to compare, like, you know, it's it's hard to compare one to one, like apple to apple, but these substrates,
00:33:20
Speaker
fibers like polyester don't have like its own inherent performances. So for example, like our fiber is ah inherently antibacterial, antifungal, you know, material.
00:33:30
Speaker
It also dries pretty fast. And so this allows the post-war industry to eliminate, you know, silver-based chemistries, zinc-based chemistries, PFAS-based chemistries, which they're adding to their clothing. And so like basically every single human being on this planet Earth has a layer of chemical between their fabrics that they're wearing and then their skin. And so that's basically like, that's where supercar becomes really, really like strong and important because of its inherent attributes. We allow this sportswear industry to go one step beyond, not just different feedstocks, but essentially allows them to eliminate costs
00:34:10
Speaker
at the finishing stage. Because when you convert polyester into a yarn and fabric, then you're putting silver chemistry on the fabric, or you're putting PFAS on the fabric to enhance its performance. So now with our fiber, the brands wouldn't have to do that. So they're saving on the energy, labor, weight, water, and wastewater treatment costs that would go into ah you know applying those chemicals to enhance its performance.
00:34:34
Speaker
How about microplastic shedding? That's um one of the main problems we identified with regular polyester. What happens to your material? So our material, we have tested using ISO so standards in compostable settings. It degrades into simpler sugar molecules. Because we are starting with sugar molecules, you know, it ends up degrading back into sugar molecules. And so there is no microplastic at the end of its life.
00:34:58
Speaker
And that's like how we are solving this massive problem that is inherent to polyester. Another problem maybe with polyester is that it's highly flammable, but I understand that your material is fire retardant, which is just amazing. So how did you achieve this?
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah, so what we do is we are, we have like these cross linkers, when our fiber basically, you know, when you have a fire, you need three things, you need source of oxygen, you need source of fuel and sustained heat to basically continue a fire or a reaction of fire. Because we have these cross linkers between our carboxylates, and it converts into carbonate compound compounds, and it provides this layer of char on the surface of fiber. So it cuts the access of oxygen into our material.
00:35:44
Speaker
And so in in the in-situ way, like it does not allow our material to burn. The interesting thing about a fiber is that it does not melt or drip. You can make polyester fire retardant by putting phosphorus.
00:35:56
Speaker
You know, phosphorus itself is pretty toxic. California actually came up with this law called Calvin 1-7, then was passed by Congress as SOFA Act. in US. I actually was one of the R&D engineers who was impacted by that law. And that's how the creation of this company came about. So I was working at an upholstery mill when you know California came out with a ban on phosphorus in the ah in the form of the couches.
00:36:22
Speaker
And then that got adopted by the entire United States. And then in the factory, what happened was Now, since the foam could not have phosphorus in it, the fabric had to do all the work. And so our reaction to that was to put more phosphorus on the fabric side so that it can prevent the fire. But unfortunately, all the natural sides like continue to continue fail.
00:36:42
Speaker
And so that was actually like how this company got created in the first place. And so the interesting part about a fiber is that it does not melt. It does not drip. And you know we have a really high limited oxygen index. It's basically the amount of oxygen needed for a material to burn. So for example, polyester is around 20%. Earth's atmosphere has 21% oxygen. And so we'd have to take 1% oxygen out all of our earth and the polyester will still continue to burn. And our material has around 49%, which is even higher than materials like Kevlar and Nomex at 29%.
00:37:17
Speaker
Wow. I was going to ask you what the trade-offs are. I mean, all these materials sound perfect, but there must be some trade-offs there. What might they be? well absolutely. I think like ah there's definitely trade-offs. And the biggest trade-off for us is that our material have a higher moisture regain, which is the amount of moisture it absorbs from the atmosphere at a stable equilibrium. And that is something that we continue to work towards to continue to reduce it.
00:37:46
Speaker
The way we have seen or like have positioned our material is that if you went to a trade show like Functional Fabric Fair or Performance Days, which has, you know, very sportswear oriented, you'll see three things. You'll see polyester, you'll see nylon, which are the two massive components, and then you'll see merino wool, which is like the only natural fiber that dominates this industry. And so the way we look at our fiber is that our fiber has very similar functions to wool. And, you know, performance natural as a trend is been picking up quite significantly because of the microplastic problem with the polyester. And so our fiber is sort of like adjacent to what wool can do at similar prices. And that's how we have positioned our fiber.
00:38:31
Speaker
You talked about prices. How does your costing compare? um i mean, I always understand at at ah at a starting stage when you're piloting, it is going to be expensive. But do you think you might be able to reach the kind of price points that would convince brands to adopt these solutions?
00:38:47
Speaker
So honestly, like we are working with like top 10 sportswear brand already. I think the key in point to be made here is that, you know, our first target sort of like in the short term, you know, the economies of polyester work because of these... massive, monolithic, hydrochemical industries that produce this at such large scales. And that allows, you know, the cost to be subdued to a really, really large degree. Of course, like, you know, oil and gas is also being subsidized in general to a large degree.
00:39:19
Speaker
And so when we have cost conversations in the short term, our fiber is cost competitive with wool prices. And so that allows to to paint a clear picture to these performance brands because they're already used to using that material in their portfolio. And so over time, our target is to continue to be at cost parity. The second target it was to be competitive with Supima cotton prices. And over a long time, as we become bigger and bigger, to then be get competitive with polyester. Like we necessarily don't claim that we will just outcompete polyester on prices from day one.
00:39:58
Speaker
Like I think anyone who claims that definitely is going to run into some challenges. I mean, of course, there are models that work like there are companies like Sire. you know, that is an H&M in-house startup that is just doing one-to-one polyester recycling in those economies, like that scale could work. I mean, there's still economics unproven there as well. Right. And so not saying that this price, you know, parity can't work in certain models, it could, but whether like we are able to actually beat the prices continues to remain to be seen. i think the best way to win in the market is to find your niche, is to find where you shine with this fine place where you beat every single performance matrix and you are competitive at cost. And once you win that tiny island, then you continue to extend your win because otherwise i think you will be lost.
00:40:52
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Find your niche. That's good. Very good point. Again, a question about your waste dream. How is it processed? Is it toxic? Or can someone else kind of use the waste that you've produced for something else?
00:41:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, 100%. I think actually our waste has a lot of valuable byproducts. In all honesty, like if we were to sell some of the co-buy products, we actually will become very, very competitive. So it has mannitol, which is used in food and pharma industry. It has Fucodian that is used in neuroscientical products. You know, it has cellulose proteins.
00:41:29
Speaker
So there is like, you know, if you think about models of, let's say, live cell or cellulosic industry, it is a biorefinery model, right? Same as polyester is a biorefinery model. Every single component of that feedstock, which is oil, is being sold to someone to substitute the price of the main product that you're selling.
00:41:48
Speaker
And so in large scale models, that biorefinery model starts to work when you sell. But the thing is, like as an early stage startup, you can then introduce a lot of complexity into your business, right? Then you're trying to penetrate multiple markets at the same time to prove the unit economic works. And so that model does exist and actually like our co-products are very valuable and we should not be throwing them away. And so because we are at a small scale and we want to prove that there there is demand for the material that we are producing, it is in our interest to be a little bit more narrow focused and focus on penetrating the market as deep as possible and generating those off takes to be then able to continue to go down the biorefinery model and then substitute the price of our main polymer.
00:42:36
Speaker
So you mentioned you're working with the top 10 brands. I'm not sure if you're able to share a couple of the names, but what do these brands love about this material and what have been some of the pushbacks or, you know, kind of challenges that you faced in having them even try it out?
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah. So many challenges. I mean, you know, I think all entrepreneurs and like founders in new material space will agree like the challenges are quite significant. I think it's pretty impressive how all these founders continue to remain very optimistic and, you know, have like this like single focus mindset of winning. And I think it's, it comes down to the people, you know, like I think all the folks in this room want to do better. and then, you know, we have done in the past. So, I unfortunately can't tell you the names because we are obligated by and NDAs and transfer agreements. The things that the brands like about us is the adjacency to wool.
00:43:33
Speaker
Wool has its own benefits. you know it has you know It's flame retardant, it's antibacterial, it's anti-odor, it can dry fast. And we have similar sort of factors. benefits without the scratchiness of the wool. Our material is extremely soft. And the base layer that you were talking about, like it's a perfect example of where our materials can replace polyester because of the nice hand feel of our fibers. And so that has been like a really big point for us. like When we go into a sales meeting with a big brand, like we tell them that, like hey, this is the wool adjacent material at the prices of the wool with better performance benefits. So basically, like that allows us to penetrate deep in, make the point quick fast. In the five minutes, they understand where we stand, where the price is, what are advantages. We have done massive amount of testing. So we look we like we arm our brands with these testing so that they can then become our internal champions and then convince the strategic leadership that why this perform this material is important to us. And so we have done lot of that testing that we basically send in the few and initial calls and that allows them to form their opinion. In terms of challenges, so I would say like biggest challenge that continues to remain scale, you know, these brands, it's sort of like a chicken or egg problem that all of us face, you know. As soon as you go into the call, they were like, okay, great. You're producing at like one ton or two ton, but we want 50 ton, right?
00:44:56
Speaker
And so you're like, great. Would you give me a binding, you know, agreement for 50 ton? They were like, oh, we want to test first, but we want you to be at 50 ton in the case of everything goes right. We want you to be, you know, like at scale.
00:45:10
Speaker
And I'm like, great, guys, that's not how it works, you know. And so, you know, there's definitely a little bit of chicken or egg, but like we do understand where they're coming from. You know, part of like large brand is like they want to monetize on these new innovations, right?
00:45:25
Speaker
For them to be able to monetize, they want to be able to sell as much as they can if the market picks that material up. And so in that position, if you release something or if you drop something and you don't have further to sell, then, you know, you're impacting their business model in some senses. But they also realize that, like, if we are at larger scale, then our prices are lower than our prices are actually compared, like are closer to what their balance sheets can take.
00:45:49
Speaker
Right. And so, ah yeah, I think all of us face that challenge. Absolutely. yeah I can definitely see a pattern from this conversation and from the several other founders that I have interviewed as well. This is very similar challenges. And I guess as a sector, as an industry, we need to figure out how to move past this because everyone kind of hits the same wall. Okay, brilliant. Thank you so much, Hitesh. That was really um insightful as well to learn about supercarb.
00:46:16
Speaker
And now we will go over to elastane, which makes up, I guess, 15 to 18% of this jacket we have that we're deconstructing. It is the invisible ingredient that makes everything stretchy and recover. We love a bit of elastane in our sportswear, right? I mean, it gives the comfort and stretch that we need when we're running, yoga, walking, whatever, and even just to wear around at home. And it's always quite a small percentage that's used in products usually.
Issues with Conventional Elastane
00:46:44
Speaker
jen what is conventional elastane made of and why is elastane a problem for the textile industry?
00:46:51
Speaker
So elastane kind of similar to the other fabrics, petrochemical-based fibres. I think what was really interesting for us is actually it also used quite toxic solvent like GMF.
00:47:03
Speaker
I recently stumbled onto a website from the European Trade Union Institute that were showing a case of a Lycra Dupont company in the Netherlands in the early 2000s and how actually the workers there were affected with the use of the toxin that had an effect on their reproducttionive reproductive health and miscarriage for women specifically, etc., which of course in a few months afterwards the company, like the the the company like plant completely closed in the Netherlands. But then actually, because maybe it's because that's Europe, but like we don't let or imagine if it's continue to be the same case around the world. So I think there was that's why I really enjoyed the Nels Fabrega exhibition, because there was a big focus on toxicity part on of the people working in these factories, but also more and more there's been kind of proof of that the impact of synthetic materials on ourpu on our body and our skin and what it can have in the future on us right now and then further along with mycoplastic as Itesh said.
00:48:05
Speaker
So i think that was kind of yeah the big problem with elastin we found, going on a toxicity art and fossil fuel-based dependency. And then what we found super interesting is the fact that this, as you said, this small fibre, the hidden villain in the industry, just blocks everything to be recycled. So when you want to, when an industry wants to move to a circularity and wants to move about better end of life, there's just this and fiber that blocks everything.
00:48:34
Speaker
Wow, I mean, it's so ironic, isn't it Here you are wearing, making sports clothes and active wear for running out in nature and being healthy without just realizing how toxic that running jacket is. Yeah, that's quite worrying. So, I mean, that's why I love the exhibition at ah Mills because, you know, just for the daily, everyday consumer, they can walk in and just learn learn about the you know the clothes that they wear, the products that they use and why it is, why the industry needs to change. And that can hopefully drive the consumers, you know the awareness that they have can drive the consumers to push brands to make the changes as well.
00:49:11
Speaker
Why is elastane so hard to replace? And what is the solution that TerraMera has developed? And how is it different from the petroleum-based elastane?
Seaweed-Based Elastane Alternatives
00:49:22
Speaker
um Yeah, so I think elastin is difficult to replace because of its performance. I think right now you can have some different elastin that can go up to like 400% stretch, for example. But then and sometimes we believe it might be sometimes a bit too over-engineered when you look at the way you can sometimes have a normal comfortable stretch with about 40% stretch.
00:49:45
Speaker
stretch or 50% stretch. So yeah I think it really depends on the application it has um and therefore and the way it's stated as well. So this a big factor on yeah this kind of stretch, but also the recovery, which is very important. And then more and more, there's this trend, I guess, on like four-way stretch,
00:50:03
Speaker
So making sure, especially for this fleece jacket right now, it's being able to have really this, that you can stretch on the origin to lean vertically. And it brings us more comfort for the people wearing it. And then, yeah, I think that was kind of more the performance aspect. But actually, what is interesting with last one,
00:50:19
Speaker
um Plus the fact that it's impossible to recycle is that it's very hard to dye on. And so a lot of brands, for the board, cover it with cotton, polyester on it, and that brings more cost, that brings more energy. Or then there's more narratives that come up with being more color absorbent, but it's kind of a new system.
00:50:37
Speaker
And yeah, and I think when we look at green alternatives right now in the market, Elastane is really mainly dominated by three big players that are and making bio-based alternatives, but these are 60% derived from petrochemicals. And 40% are using land-intensive feedstocks like corn or sugarcane. I think there's one of the competitors at the Nels Fabrica that was actually showing that they now We found this 90% sugar cane, bio-based fiber, which is, I guess, great because they're all making more efforts as well. And then we found out that there's a bit more new in commerce of elastin, but more for specifically niche. For example, there's an Italian one that's focusing on elastin for denim. And they're using, for example, 100% natural rubber.
00:51:27
Speaker
But for example, natural river, we know it's very linked with deforestation and child labor, and it was in the EU deemed but as a critical role to you. So I think there's been lots of like efforts towards that, which shows a good sign. And also when we look at all the seaweed-based fibers, they've been amazing at having the softness, but they're not providing the stretch.
00:51:47
Speaker
So what we found was to really try to create the first three bio-based alternatives, but lasting with And the way we're competing and the way we want to differentiate is from our feedstock, but also from the way we're spinning our fibers.
00:52:03
Speaker
And so the feedstock is going to be looking at seaweed. It's a highly renewable feedstock. It doesn't require land, freshwater, fertilizer. And what is interesting is that it's very everywhere in the world. so For example, we see a lot of, I mean, I'll come back to that point, actually, in the second point, because it kind of links to my second point. And now we knew that it was not about creating a new machinery and a new factories, but it was really about plug and play. And it was the most critical thing that we've heard from brands, et cetera. So we've managed to completely freely print it, a lab scale.
00:52:36
Speaker
spinning line that mimics the industry scale one so we could continuously iterate our formulation to fit within current systems and so that's why it's working right now we have a good prototype so we're only one year old and we have a good prototype that meets this kind of comfort stretch performance of about 70% stretch and 90% recovery the way we envision kind of the Ramira is to be able to really have a resilient supply chain based on the brand's supply chain. So, for example, if a brand wants to, as its whole manufacturing in India, they're using cotton, Indian indian cotton, and they want to be able to add elastane. Right now, we're we doing some more research on Indian seaweed, for example. And the spinning line that we're using is very the same one that has been used for acrylic or viscose. And so if we can look at, I mean, I know India is producing a lot of viscose as well. So if we can look at one of their fiber producer and kind of creating this seaweed to fiber hubs around the world, that's kind of the way we want to be able to compete and differentiate and create this kind of resilient supply chain that follows natural cycles, and but also kind of doesn't isn't too far away from the global or complex supply chain that is fashioned right now. Why did you choose seaweed?
00:53:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, seaweed is, it's been proving that it's an amazing feedstock compared to plastic. I think it's getting more and more traction. and We were looking for a feedstock that is quite close to home as well. And right now we had some more kind of connection with seaweed in Scotland and in Ireland. So that was kind of something that made sense for us that way. And the fact that it's going to be found everywhere and that has the properties that we're interested in.
00:54:25
Speaker
And have you done tests and certifications that can help brands feel more confident about the yarns that you've developed or you're not quite there yet? Yeah, we're not quite there yet. So we're one year old We've managed to create a of first prototype, so we're quite happy about it. And then in May, we have a pilot planned and funded ah with industrial scale spinning line. So the moment we can prove that what we've done in the lab works in an industrial scale spinning line, then we can start doing the copper certifications and we can probably start testing it. And it's something that we're going to be doing kind of simultaneously from the pilot to make to kind of see changes in our composition or getting that feedback look in a sense.
00:55:07
Speaker
But yeah, I think it's also interesting to look at all the different certifications. a bit sometimes confusing when when, especially with elastane, I don't really know how. I mean, I'm doing bit more research on it, but it's a bit, yeah, it's a bit difficult. And you said it's a material that really clogs up the system when you're trying to recycle it. What happens to your elastane at the end of its life and if it's in a product?
00:55:28
Speaker
So right now we haven't tested anything regarding end life as well, um but we're really designing it to be compostable. Home compostable would be kind of the dream. I think that's kind of, we're looking at specifically at a market like underwear and sportswear, and these two markets we know they're not going to be bought secondhand and people just,
00:55:48
Speaker
will put it in the trash and they're not going to be recycling it or buying it secondhand. So that's why I think it was zero is something that we're really interested in. Right now, there's so many factors that we need to take into account to make a clothes compostable. And that means the way it's blended and then the way it's been dyed on and what are the other finishings that was being put. Because even if you put the most biodegradable fibers in your food, the worst finishing, then it doesn't work.
00:56:15
Speaker
But then, yeah, so that's kind of like the first option. But then we know, for example, for sportswear, lots of brands were interested in recycling polyester, for example, from their legging or maybe from the fleece or like the nylon, but the last 10 blocks. And so we're trying to find a way maybe to decompose the last thing so that the primary textile can be recycled.
00:56:34
Speaker
So I don't think fibres will be recyclable. It's a bit too hard to push for that. But at least it can kind of ah any like take off this bias, decompose within chemical recycling, and then the primary textile to be recycled.
00:56:48
Speaker
So that's kind of what we're envisioning. And where do you see your technology in sort of five to 10 years time? Yeah, I guess, because right now in our roadmap, we'll start with having a small pilot land in our labs to continue iteration and sell the fibers. But then we want to start partnering with the fiber producer and kind of do tool manufacturing where we give we can kind of render machines to have a control on um the fibers have been produced and kind of create an ingredient branding. So kind of following a business model where you want to say that you've made this fabric with this specific fiber and kind of create and control the IP around it. And and then when this is done or when this has a bit more traction, then we want to move into a licensing model where we will just have to license a formulation.
00:57:39
Speaker
to existing wet spinners around the world and can produce the fibers for us in a sense. and So it's really just being a bit more like, I don't know if it's even word, but like a formulation magic recipe, maybe a chemical company in a sense, but like a bio-based chemical company. But yeah, i think that's going to be looking at the last thing and then playing with the whole world of elastomers, that's a different application also outside of fashion. and But right now, what was the, where the need was the most, was in fashion, I think we found. Right.
00:58:12
Speaker
right So are you working closely with some brands? Have you been in conversations? and What's been their interest or reaction? Yeah, I think we're working with, I mean, there was a lot of customer discovery and a lot about making sure where what we're doing is really needed. Because I think we're like, are we ready to kind of embark ou ourselves in this journey? we wanted to make sure it's worth it in a sense. and so and So, yeah, specifically getting to a lot of brands, but also Nails, interestingly, they really want to now have a bit more of a say within the supply chain and provide new solutions to brands.
00:58:44
Speaker
And so, yeah, I think it's interesting depending on the market, what their needs are. So like sportswear, they're going to be looking at recycling the materials. Underwear, they're going to be fully focused on making something compostable. And yeah, making sure it's still soft in the stretches and the performance requirements as well, what is needed. And then the benefits that maybe our fibers can add in terms of durability.
00:59:10
Speaker
and breathability, that is also quite important for the underwear and sportswear industry. so And I guess, you're like you mentioned, nylon sort of always, you know, mixed with another material, another fiber.
00:59:24
Speaker
So have you thought about sort of bio-based nylon, as we mentioned here, or the the polyester replacement ah from super Supercarb? Have you kind of had conversations or thought about how you work with new biomaterials that are being developed as well?
00:59:39
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes we ask brands about this as well, if they are in touch so that we can understand, for example, if we have similar supply chain. So, for example, even if Laos or like I think yeah anything that is kind of formulation based, if they have the same, if they're using the same spinning line, in that in and if there's a way we can connect and kind of...
01:00:02
Speaker
create the fabric together because sometimes as the as the yarn level you don't have as much value in a sense that if you are a fabric or if you're a brand that's where most value is in the in supply chain so if you can come stronger together it's kind of easier for adoption for brands so so no definitely we speak with a lot of brands but yeah i think it's a It's creating also the right story between the two companies and making they're at the right stage where is still very early to kind of try anything like this. So right now we're just trying with cotton, for example.
01:00:35
Speaker
Thank you so much, Jeanne, for the introduction to TerraMira as well. So I think the exhibition really succeeded in showing was all the ingredients that need to come together for the full life cycle of a sports wear. If that running jacket in the future is going to have all three of your materials in it, how do we get to that point? I mean, you sort of mentioned a little bit to that, Jeanne, just now, but how do we make sure that all of these ingredients come together into that one product? Karczewska, your thoughts on that first?
01:01:06
Speaker
As I mentioned, probably that that would be combined efforts from both and supply chain and brands as well. So that should be commitment of the brand to adopt that kind of material and the supply chain willingness to change that because it does require a lot of equipment, sometimes installation or different sizing of that equipment and the commitment on the product.
01:01:31
Speaker
several players in the supply chain. In our case, it would be polymerizer, spinner and the weaver that should commit and that and then upstream, that would be a brand adoption.
01:01:41
Speaker
Hitesh, how do you see all three of your the materials that we discussed today coming together? How will but brands coordinate that? Honestly, like it can be done, of course. like you know Textile industry is very interesting. Material suppliers are like more monolithic and they're like very big. ah Yarn industry is very fragmented.
01:02:03
Speaker
ah Fabric industry is pretty fragmented. And then you have brands, which are, again, There are a lot of brands, but then there's only a few monolithic brands that actually drive the economies of scale and like try to bring these materials together. and so like for Ozenbio, Hiramira, and Supercarp to like come together, like I think the best would be to get embedded into the supply chain where they're already used to buying. What usually ends up happening for these sportswear brands is that they are buying from the same factory. you know It's is like kind of like a secret that everyone knows is not a secret. And so like a fabric manufacturer that already has a base layer that's made from Supercarb has ah jeans, spandex in it, and the face fabric from Ozone Bio with nylon. Like if they have it at a one place in the same supply chain that they used to buy, like that becomes much more easier to bring together and adopt. And I think that is like, I think, the you know, most of the
01:03:04
Speaker
material innovators need to focus on embedding themselves into the supply chain that these brands are already used to. That being said, like you know a part of that intention to bring these materials together also comes from brands. So actually, Peak Performance brand actually just came up with their helium down jacket where they use Brouro's recycled nylon and then they use Resortex you know ah polyester that that can melt away. So you know when the brand intention is there,
01:03:34
Speaker
like sort of say that like, hey, this is what the future product looks like from feedstocks that have never been used before or are upcoming. You know, if the intention is there, then like these materials can make it. And the way we as innovators can facilitate it is to get embedded into the companies that they're already used to buying from. That's the fastest way to penetrate this market.
01:03:58
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think if we could find this one else that wants to all try us up, and I think there are some that trying to now kind of adopt the new innovation, provide them to brands, and then, yeah, come with a already supply chain ready for brands to copy you, or, I don't know, like to try us in a sense, and kind of scale up that way.
01:04:18
Speaker
Because I feel like brands are trying out different pieces of the puzzle and in a smaller way. But if they kind of brought a group of you together and and figured out ah for this one jacket, these are the materials that we need. Who can we bring together and pile it with for that one product all the way? i think that would be really interesting. Even I mean even i was interested in you guys byproducts, you were saying that you have lots of byproducts from the production line. it could be super interesting we even for us to test in some of like... Because right now we're testing a bit of byproducts from the C we'd use in biostimulants. But like if we can type within existing supply chain that way and kind of...
01:04:57
Speaker
I don't know if it means creating a co-dependency, but in some ways more of that with scaling together and then maybe creating a solution for brands with the two of us that are auto, in a kind of regenerative way. I don't know. Kind of like collaborating together.
01:05:17
Speaker
Absolutely. I think collaboration is definitely the key. And I was curious to find out if any of you were collaborating with any of the other exhibitors from the Performance Without Toxic City exhibition. It's totally fine if you're not. I know everyone's sort of focused on trying to get their product up and running, but I was curious if you were.
01:05:36
Speaker
um Not so much directly in like, you know, one-to-one collaboration, but, you know, I'm connected with a lot of folks from the Mills Fabric exhibition. And, you know, I have made commitments to introduce us, introduce them to the brands that we work with, you know, like, and I think, especially like getting a warm intro directly to a brand, to a person who is actually looking into adopting these materials is the best way to penetrate the market as well. You know, it can be really difficult to like actually figure out who is the right person to talk because these brands can be massive. And the crazy part is that there's only few folks, like two folks, at these massive brands that are making all the decisions. And so We regularly work with innovators and introduce them to our investors or to the brands they're working with. And they do the same for us. And I think we understand that like like we're not technically competitors, more so like collaborators in this really long journey, because this is going to be pretty long journey to bring these solutions to market. So yeah, I think we collaborate in that way, but not so much that, oh, you know let's put both of our materials together. But hopefully with this podcast, we get inspired to do that.
01:06:46
Speaker
Excellent. So looking ahead five years, do you think a running jacket made entirely from non-fossil fuel materials performing at the same level as today's petroleum-based version is realistic? And what has to happen between now and then? is it regulations? Is it brands being braver? How long do you think it'll be before we see your materials on a label? Kosheska? I think it's realistic, at least though based on the composition content that you just mentioned. If it's a 95% or 90% nylon, we have enough material and we're at the reasonable scale right now to provide enough material to supply capsule addition.
01:07:26
Speaker
or quite a bit of amount of material to have ah to make at least 1,000 jackets, or I would say 2,000 usually. Even at the scale we're at and we're at the pilot scale, our next scale will allow us to produce several thousands of jackets. So we will be able to plug but provide enough material as long as there is a need in the consumer-facing market. One way or another, we'll make it happen, like I tell always to my team. Yeah.
01:07:56
Speaker
I love that optimism and you need that. Absolutely. Hitesh, do you feel that strongly that in the next five years we'll see your materials on the label? Yeah, 100%. Like I think we have already made yarns, fabrics. we have supplied fabrics to like global companies across the world. So like we are at that reality now.
01:08:14
Speaker
ah We might not be at the scale, uh that you know you wish millions and millions of people wearing our material and our material showing up on the labels we might not we not might not be there now but the reality of whether we can like substitute it now it exists you know those fabric exists we supply them and you're actually going to see more product releases like we actually released our first garment at the mills fabric exhibition which was a legging to show that like these, this future is present, you know, and that we're creating the future now. And, you know, you're going to actually see this year multiple releases from our company of these products. And I'm super excited, honestly, like there are,
01:08:56
Speaker
multiple ways to create a future. And, yeah you know, I am very mission driven to create a future that I believe in. And I believe there is a critical mass of people built that believe in the future as well. And then the intention is there. And so they're going to continue, you know, getting there with full force.
01:09:15
Speaker
Excellent. And how about you, Jeanne? How do you feel in five years? do you feel we'll see more of your materials out in the market? Yeah, so too. I mean, I think it's a big dream as well. I think if there's a, yeah, you were asking if there was other players to be part of. And I think right now the EU regulations are are getting kind of like accelerating it i feel like we've recently even the ban on destruction of unsolved goods or epr that's getting it right so maybe i feel like maybe the us is doing also a few changes i've seen some new laws coming up so i think there's generally maybe if this can be a money spent or paid from brands to be kind of relocated to innovations or i don't know i think this is these regulations could have as well
01:10:02
Speaker
an impact on that. But yeah I think in consumer demand, I think there's definitely change showing up right now more and more on social media out and stuff. so I think it's pretty optimistic. That's what we need. We need optimism here and confidence that we can change things. Excellent. So now we're going to shift gears slightly. I'm aware of time. If you can just spare me five more minutes, I have three quick questions.
01:10:24
Speaker
So just to reflect a little bit on your experience as, you know, our founders, CEOs of upcoming startups, really disrupting of your fields. Are there any favorite failures that you've had projects that didn't work, experiments that went horribly wrong, but it sort of ended up opening new doors or ideas and unlocking opportunities as well?
01:10:47
Speaker
Hitesh? This is a tough one. I have to admit. There's been so many, so many failures. um I think like, you know, in our journey, and we got really close to like getting a really significant agreement with a really large post-war brand. And we spend a ton of time on the legal back and forth. And unfortunately, you know at the critical last moment when the signature was going to hit the agreement, like that didn't come through.
01:11:17
Speaker
And I think it's like I would say like that's probably one of the biggest failure. ah you know It's one thing to actually create a technological breakthrough, And it is a completely different thing to actually commercialize a material. Like those are two separate games that you are playing. It is a completely different ballpark. You are so out of your depth at like these massive billion dollar companies that are sitting on the table with you. You know, you don't have the leverage to actually like, you know, be able to push them around or like it's not just push them around, but like to have any sort of leverage over them in the room, you know, so like.
01:11:52
Speaker
I think like for for us, like the biggest learning from that was basically that we need to continue to de-risk the way we operate within the ecosystem. How we think about sales, how we commercialize, who we commercialize with, has there's to be a lot of thought put into it. Like what is...
01:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, you know, a lot of time, like, founders are told that you have to have just plan A, because if you think about plan B, then, you know, you are going to fail on plan A. Like, I think that is a little bit bullshit, to be honest.
01:12:23
Speaker
I mean, it's like, I don't think it's a great advice. Like, I think in commercialization plan, you have to have multiple partners, multiple options, multiple, you know, like players that you're working with to de-risk your commercial strategy so that you don't end up in a strategy where or a place where someone walks away and then you're like, oh, what do we do with the company next? Right. And so, yeah, I would say like we have gone through that. And yeah, I'm glad that I've had experience early. Thanks. Yeah, I think we there was this we were we were told a lot of time about this ah famous guy that lives in the island of Scotland that he knows everything about seaweed and he's the seaweed expert and he just never answered our emails or calls. So my co-founders just went to do a camping in Scotland and then not at his door. Yeah. And I think that was kind of the, for us, there was a bit of the like mistake of sometimes thinking bit outside the box and being like, okay, going a bit more the old way, like creating connections. but It was about like securing that that knowledge that we don't have yet as first-time founders. So, yeah.
01:13:26
Speaker
ah For us, it was actually that time, like two years ago, it was considered maybe a failure to signing the deal with a you know multi-billion dollar company. But right now, actually, after um several years and the lessons that market provided to investors, Lots of companies, they've been inice startups that have been in touch with sed such a multi-billion dollar conglomerate and actually that failed them. i would say it was great thing that we didn't sign ah for it and we went on our own path. And right now we're free and independent and we can sign a deal with multiple other players. So yeah, that's it.
01:14:12
Speaker
I mean, gosh, you are ah really trying to do so much at the same time. Like Hitesh mentioned, you're not just developing a new technology, you're trying to commercialize that. And that's a whole other ballgame. And it's blood, sweat and tears every day for a very, very long time. I'm really curious to know how you take care of your health and well-being while setting up a startup that is really just starting to grow. and There's a lot of momentum and there's every day that it's just action packed and you're raising funds and changing the status quo.
01:14:43
Speaker
How do you take care of yourself in the midst of all of that? Absolutely. Karczewska? I'll be honest, I don't take care of myself. So I'm still trying to, you know, use the fuel that, ah you know, young ages are still giving us.
01:14:58
Speaker
And me and my co-founders still on that fuel. But I think we have like couple, three, like maybe couple of more years, but we have to start taking care of ourselves. So I'll not be saying like, oh, you know what, i I do sports and then stuff like that. And You know, and then I take my smoothie in the morning and all that. and No.
01:15:19
Speaker
Yeah. We're just mission driven. We're hardworking. People will like what we do. And we actually sometimes in a position where we're really close to, you know, psychotic state, but it's all right.
01:15:37
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is the reality on the ground, isn't it? You just got to show up and and handle things. And this is the season that you're in. Hopefully not a never ending season and you will get to pause and and get time for yourself as well. Jin, what about you?
01:15:52
Speaker
yeah I mean, I think I've been kind of also trying to find struggling to find a balance. And I think what works for me right now is just having, taking one day in a weekend where I don't leave, or I get just don't put any schedules to meet anyone and just spend the alone, and or maybe spontaneously we'll call someone someone to meet to friends or a family member. But I just, because during the whole week, you're so booked with so many responsibilities that then even when I would book myself something in a weekend, then I would like completely panic about actually going to that place.
01:16:23
Speaker
because I was like, I just want to stay in bed. So I think I had like this high and lows and I'm trying to kind of balance this a bit more. But I think accepting that at least once a week I need just to stay in my bed is already a good to focus, I think, for all my side. It is such hard work. I mean, what you guys are doing is amazing. And from the outside, it might look very glamorous to be a startup and it's, you know, kind of in the right crowds and fundraising and all of that, but it's hard work and people need to know that, that you're sacrificing so much because of the vision that you have and then the mission that you're on. Ditesh, do you keep a sort of sane, balanced life or is that a dream?
01:17:04
Speaker
I mean, it is still a dream that I'm chasing. Like, I think the first year I started, i would work every weekend. And that was like, you know, in second year, I was like, okay, this is not sustainable. but You know, like this, you just can't do this. And so I think the second year, like now we're in the third year, like what I found really good was that I started climbing. So I'm a rock climber. And what climbing does, it allows you to create these short winds.
01:17:32
Speaker
And so when you're so solving a bouldering problem and you're going through these grades, it allows you to create these short wins and you can then take the energy back into the marathon that a company is. And so honestly, like I think climbing is one place which disconnects me completely from my work because like when you're on the wall that you have to disconnect, otherwise you're going to fall, right? And so I think that has kept me sane, honestly. i am so thankful that I kind of discovered that and I, yeah.
01:18:00
Speaker
That's lovely. And it is so true. Short winds from anywhere, it is it is the fuel that helps you to keep going on that long marathon that you have ahead of yourself. All right, the last question, and and so it is my favorite question to ask all my guests. I hope you enjoy it too. So we've been talking about textiles as a very functional material, but it is much more than that. Fabrics fulfill our senses and our soul, and we engage with textiles in such an intimate way from the day we were born to the day we die, right? So could you share with us about a a piece of textiles or a garment that holds deep personal value or memory for you, something that you hold on to and you feel real strong connection to? is there a personal story that you can share with us before we wrap up?
01:18:47
Speaker
Coach Jessica. I actually have a um piece of a textile that ah was ah prepared ah by my grandmother. And um she was like doing some knitting on it, on top of it. And she like created some sort of like a piece of of art there, which is a golden bird.
01:19:09
Speaker
And she specifically prepared it for me. So I would say that would be a piece of fabric that I have a connection Yeah, but yeah that's beautiful. Thank you.
01:19:23
Speaker
Hitesh? Yeah, I think for me, it's a blanket. Like my when I moved to States, my mom... gave me this blanket that her sister had given her for me. And I think I've had this for like last decade that I've been in States. And so that's pretty personal for me. I carry it around. Sometimes I take it to camping as well. It's nice. and fall So yeah, that's kind of yeah mine. Yeah.
01:19:46
Speaker
Absolutely. Very comforting. And Jean, what's yours? and actually never really had a teddy bear, but I had a piece of like it's square kind of cotton. And what I always loved was the smell of it. And then the smell of home, of the bedroom, or like if you had a hug from your parents, then the smell of the perfume of my mum would stay in in the in and this kind of cloth.
01:20:07
Speaker
So I think I'm trying to keep these smells on and I always just knock it in somewhere and I hope if it's not going to now start smoothing. But I think it's the really, it's more just piece of where they're so, I don't know, with time got softer as well somehow and get all these mixed smells. And I think that's kind of when i need to, I don't know, think back about time or be a bit more nostalgic. I was just, it's kind of what I always go back to. Oh, beautiful. Thank you so much, guys. There's such beautiful stories. It's nice to kind of root all of that technology and performance back to something that we really connect with personally, um um different kinds of materials that we have in our lives. I can't tell you how inspired and how much I enjoyed this conversation with three of you. I wish I could have spent an hour and a half with each of you and maybe we can have you back on your
Commitment to Sustainable Transformation
01:20:55
Speaker
own. you know, in a year or two when you're really in a different place with your company, but really, really inspired by your, just your commitment and your passion for what you're doing and to really change things because you want to do do things differently and leave the world a better place than what you found it to be. so Thank you very much, Hitesh, Karcheska and Jean for your valuable time and sharing with us your personal story about each of your companies and what you're doing to radically transform the textile industry. Thank you so much, Melie. Thank you, Melie.
01:21:29
Speaker
Thank you, Melie.
01:21:32
Speaker
What an incredible episode that was. i mean, each of our guests were just so passionate and committed to change how performance wear materials are made and what they're made from. i mean, I love it. Great conversation there. So we've started to rebuild our running jacket from the inside out. We've replaced the nylon, the polyester, the elastane, all the fossil fuel backbone of performance wear with materials born from waste streams, renewable feedstocks and green chemistry.
01:21:58
Speaker
But fibers are only the beginning. In the next episode, we'll be hearing from innovators developing toxic-free solutions for the finishing and construction of our running jacket. These are the hidden layers of chemistry that most of us don't even understand or even think about. The dyes, the water repellency and moisture-wicking treatments, and a lot more. Because even the cleanest fiber can be undermined by toxic finishing or designed in a way that makes repair and recycle nearly impossible.
01:22:26
Speaker
Hit subscribe to make sure you don't miss the next episode in this series as we continue the journey of this running jacket. Clean Run is a companion series to the Performance Without Toxicity exhibition that is open until 26th of June, 2026 at Fabrica X in London.
01:22:42
Speaker
I've popped a link in the show notes for you to find more details. Do visit the exhibition if you get a chance. It's a free exhibition. Genuinely, it's worth your time. You will walk away full of ideas and inspiration. As organizers of the exhibition, here's a quick word from Amy Tsang, head of Europe at Mills Fabrica, and Yumi Ito from Goldwyn, the leading Japanese outdoor and performance wear brand, sharing their thoughts on why this was an important and timely collaboration.
Role of The Mills Fabrica and Goldwin in Innovation
01:23:11
Speaker
I'm Amy Tsang, Head of Europe at The Mills Fabrica. We're a global innovation platform dedicated to supporting innovations across the textile and agri-food industries.
01:23:21
Speaker
We have an investment fund, co-working spaces in London and Hong Kong, an innovation gallery and concept store called FabricaX, where we host exhibitions, and finally, we build strategic partnerships to accelerate sustainability across industries.
01:23:37
Speaker
Our latest exhibition in London, titled Performance Without Toxicity, is exploring a new paradigm for performance wear. One where technical excellence no longer comes at the expense of people or the planet.
01:23:50
Speaker
Today, Performancewear relies heavily on synthetic fibers and chemical treatments to deliver stretch, moisture management, durability, and weather resistance. But these solutions often come with considerable environmental trade-offs.
01:24:05
Speaker
Through this carefully curated exhibition, we're showcasing 37 companies that are advancing a clean, circular, and regenerative path forward for the industry from all around the world. spanning early stage startups to commercialize innovations and global brands.
01:24:21
Speaker
The creation has been supported by Goldwyn, our lead innovation partner, a Japanese performance brand that integrates research, design, and investment to advance the future of apparel and material systems.
01:24:34
Speaker
Performance without toxicity is guided by four key narratives. Reimagining materials, performance without petrochemicals, greener chemistries, beyond durability, designing for circularity and longevity, and finally, future footwear.
01:24:50
Speaker
For anyone curious about where performance wear is heading and looking to discover some of the solutions that are making active wear better for the sake of our planet, then this is the exhibition for you. My name is Yumi Ito. I worked at Goldwin Inc. and I am also a part of Goldwin Players Fund, Goldwin's corporate venture capital arm.
01:25:11
Speaker
Goldwin is a performance and lifestyle upload company. It was funded in 1951 as a knitting factory in Japan and soon after shifted its forecast toward a ah sports apparel. Our origins lies in skiing, designing garments for snow, cold and extreme conditions.
01:25:35
Speaker
Over decades, we have built deep expertise in product development, working not only on our original brand, but also operating and developing leading outdoor and outsports brands in Japan, including the North Face, Harry Hansen, and some of them we are holding their trademarks domestically in Japan and developing products through our own design and R&D capabilities. with a unique retail strategy. This experience has shaped our identity.
01:26:11
Speaker
As a company rooted in sports and outdoor fields, we believe our true field is the planet itself. um For us, so Reducing environmental impact so is not an ad project, it's inseparable from our responsibility as a company that designs for life in nature.
01:26:33
Speaker
So we support startups and technologies that can help transform the Apple industry towards a more circular, regenerative, and less responsible future. The theme of this exhibit exhibition felt like a very natural fit for us as a company, which is why we were excited to to be part of it. We've always loved how the Meals Fabrica supports innovators through exhibitions like this. It's something we've admired for a long time and in many ways it reflects what we also hope to do through our own activities. So we are truly happy to have had the opportunity to collaborate on this project.
01:27:16
Speaker
It also connects directly to one of our company's visions. to harness boundless imagination and employ innovative approaches aimed at fostering a healthier planet.
01:27:31
Speaker
Collaboration with MesoFabrica is another way of supporting and bringing that idea to life. At Goldwyn, our approach is to making product is closely connected to improving the global environment.
01:27:46
Speaker
We see our product is not only as items people use, but also as a way to better understand the planet. Almost like a medium that helps spark dialogue about our relationship with nature.
01:28:02
Speaker
Rather than focusing on prototyping alone, we place a strong emphasis on turning new materials and technology into real products that we can actually deliver to customers.
01:28:15
Speaker
In this exhibition, you can see several tangible examples of that. including product developed in collaboration with our corporate VC's portfolio companies, such as Synfrax, Bioworks, and SolarCore Spiver, that has always already reached the market.
01:28:36
Speaker
Of course, developing new materials or technologies takes time, but ah We believe it's important to introduce these innovations to a wider audience through exhibitions like this. By sharing these efforts publicly, we can also communicate with the communicate that direction Goldwyn is aiming for.
01:28:57
Speaker
At the same time, we recognize that we are not company with the scale to transform an entire industry on our own. That's why supporting communities like this, collaborating with other companies and creating opportunities for dialogue are so important to us.
01:29:15
Speaker
Through these kinds of collaborations, we hope innovative materials and technologies can gradually find their way into real world application.
01:29:27
Speaker
As Yumi mentions, reducing the environmental impact of their product is not just a side project for them. It's inseparable from their responsibility as an outdoor wear company. And I wish more companies, not just performance wear, but all companies would really start thinking like them. She highlights the importance of the need for dialogue. And this exhibition really does invite people into a conversation and encourage collaboration.
01:29:52
Speaker
and And really, this is the only way we can transform the landscape of outdoor and performance wear. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and share it with someone who'd find it valuable. And if you'd like to support the podcast, there's a link in the show notes to buy me a coffee. It goes a long way during those late night editing sessions. If you have any questions or feedback, please contact me. All my details are in the show notes below.
01:30:16
Speaker
And I'd love to hear from you. Thank you for joining me today. Until next time, I'm Millie Thurakin, reminding you that there's no such thing as ordinary cloth. Every thread tells a story.