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E122: Dorothy Forstein
1.8k Plays4 years ago
In today’s case, a loving mother and wife seemingly falls off the face of the earth. After a brutal attack several years earlier, Dorothy Forstein was living a shell of her former life, but one night she would vanish and be gone without a trace.
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Transcript
Introduction to True Crime Podcasts
00:00:00
Speaker
Alison and I want to take a minute to introduce you to a new true crime podcast that we think you'll love as much as we do. This week's podcast suggestion comes to you from our friends, Cam and Jen. These two put time, love, devotion, and respect into all of their true crime episodes. This show is called Our True Crime Podcast. And here's a little bit about Cam and Jen's show.
00:00:27
Speaker
Last year, there were nearly 22,000 murders in the U.S. Not surprisingly, more than 200 true crime podcasts launch every year in the U.S. alone. There's no shortage of crimes and no shortage of crime podcasts to cover them, but none of those shows have the heart of our true crime podcast. Thank goodness. Well, Helen, they didn't even have seatbelt laws back then. They never wore seatbelt. Yeah, it's fine.
00:00:55
Speaker
He could not remember exactly what happened and thought that he had blacked out. That was about it. That's all he could tell officers. He was drawing things saying the thoughts won't stop. I want to see how this plays out. It's heartbreaking. Isn't it time you made our true crime podcast your true crime podcast? Our true crime podcast available on all your favorite podcasting apps.
George Bailey and It's a Wonderful Life
00:01:25
Speaker
One of my favorite Christmas movies is It's a Wonderful Life. The story it tells is truly beautiful. If you've never seen it, I'm going to spoil it for you in this short synopsis from IMBD. Quote, George Bailey has spent his entire life giving of himself to the people of Bedford Falls. He's always long to travel but never had the opportunity.
00:01:44
Speaker
in order to prevent rich Mr. Potter from taking over the entire town. All that prevents him from doing so is George's modest building and loan company, which was founded by his generous father. But on Christmas Eve, George's Uncle Billy loses the business's $8,000 while intending to deposit it in the bank. Potter finds the misplaced money and hides it from Billy,
00:02:04
Speaker
When the bank examiner discovers the shortage later that night, George realizes that he will be held responsible and sent to jail and the company will collapse, finally allowing Potter to take over the town. Thinking of his wife, their young children, and others he loves will be better off with him dead, he contemplates suicide. But the prayers of his loved ones result in a gentle angel named Clarence coming to Earth to help George with the promise of earning his wings. He shows George what things would be like if he had never been born." End quote.
00:02:34
Speaker
George Bailey was a giver, but George Bailey didn't see how much he was loved or how important he was. When he stood on the bridge staring down into the cold wintery water wishing he was never born, he had no clue how much his existence affected everyone he knew. I think we're all a little like that, thinking we never do enough or we never give enough.
00:02:56
Speaker
We give so much to our families, our jobs, our friends, our hobbies, our church that sometimes we stop seeing all the good that we do. I know there are some days that such bad things happen that we do wish we could disappear just as George Bailey did.
00:03:11
Speaker
What we don't stop to think about is how sad the world would be if we weren't in it. How much we would be missed if we simply disappeared.
The Mystery of Dorothy Forstein
00:03:20
Speaker
In today's case, a loving mother and wife seemingly falls off the face of the earth. She's literally gone without a trace. This is the story of Dorothy Forstein.
00:04:06
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:04:15
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:04:43
Speaker
Okay. This one was a spur of the moment episode. So I think we're going to like it as much as you can like things that we talk about, but her case is very interesting.
00:05:01
Speaker
P.S., before you start, I never knew that you also shared. So, Slootowns, you know that Maggie and I both love The Wizard of Oz. But I now know that we both also love It's a Wonderful Life. Oh, it's one of my favorite Christmas movies. Jimmy Stewart. I know. He's got so many good movies. Yeah. So good.
Dorothy's Background and Social Life
00:05:24
Speaker
Okay, so back on track, we are talking about Dorothy Cooper Forstein and she was a happily married well off mother with three young children. So two of them, both girls were from her husband's previous marriage. And then she and her husband Jules had a baby named Edward. So I read and I actually watched a YouTube video by Brooke McKenna that had a lot of really good information.
00:05:54
Speaker
And in that video, she talks about Jule's first wife actually died in childbirth. Oh gosh. And after his wife's death, he and Dorothy, who I believe she said had been childhood friends, reconnected, fell in love, and got married. And it's important to know that the first wife died in childbirth because some people
00:06:17
Speaker
Because of what happens to her they like to put blame on the husband and they kind of talk about how the Oh He obviously didn't cause that death Okay, I know what you're saying. This is not a repeat, right? right But Dorothy was raising those other two children as her own and then obviously her son Edward Okay
00:06:43
Speaker
Her husband Jules worked for the city of Philadelphia for the Philadelphia city council. So they lived in Philly and he and Dorothy from all accounts shared a very happy marriage. They lived in a very prominent area of town, like described as the ritzy part of town. Oh, they lived in a three brick or three story brick home. Oh my gosh. I don't know if I've ever been in a three story house. I don't either.
00:07:11
Speaker
Well, I mean, like, I mean, if you count the base. Yeah. Okay. But I'm like, from the pictures, this was three stories above ground. So a mansion, basically. Wow. And it was like a cute little home by 1943. And this kind of explains, I guess, their prominence. Jules was named magistrate. And that, you know,
00:07:38
Speaker
father, husband being involved in politics, mom would stay at home, their family was happy, healthy, and wealthy. And in that same- Oh, to be all three. Yeah. Oh, to have all three. Literally, before we started recording it, Allison and I were discussing public student loan forgiveness. To have it all. I know.
00:08:04
Speaker
But in that same McKenna video I watched, she talked in great detail about what a social butterfly Dorothy was. Dorothy, like so many that we have talked about previously on coffee and cases, would often find herself surrounded by people at parties. Everyone loved to be in her company. She had just a way of making people feel comfortable, making them feel valued, making them laugh. And, you know, that's pretty good qualities for a politician's wife.
00:08:33
Speaker
to be public and all that. Right. That's perfect. Because then, you know, if somebody's mad at your husband, you can kind of smooth it out. Yeah, you're like the little barrier in between the husband and his contingents. Right. So even though they seem to have it all, something was about to happen that would change this sweet social butterfly that Dorothy was known to be into a scared, traumatized woman on the verge of mental collapse.
00:09:03
Speaker
Oh, so drastic shift. Yes. Because on January 25th, 1945, Dorothy dropped her children off at a neighbor's house so she could do some shopping. This particular neighbor, I never saw a name, but was one that
00:09:20
Speaker
was always willing to watch the forcing children when Dorothy needed to go out to get groceries, get her hair done or whatever. So this is a trusted person. Yeah. Watched their kids regularly and never asked questions really where Dorothy was going. Not like she had anything to hide, but you know, Dorothy, it seemed to me could just go knock on her door and be like, Hey, I need to run out for a bit. Can you watch the kids? And she would just say, sure, come on in. So watch on like half a drop of a hat.
00:09:51
Speaker
The next little tidbit of information sounds very lamb to the slaughter to me, Allison. And I think you're going to like pick up on that a little bit as well. Not in the bad way, but just in the time period. And so for those of you all listening, lamb to the slaughter is one of my absolute favorite short stories. It was my favorite to teach, all time favorite short story to teach.
00:10:15
Speaker
because the ending is just, the whole thing is everything. It's so good. So go read it.
The Attack and Its Aftermath
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah. So go read it. That's your assignment. That's your homework. And then there's a little video that you can watch. It's a movie. It's like an hour long. You can do compare and contrast. Let us know what you think.
00:10:35
Speaker
Then there will be a quiz. So be prepared. That'll be on Patreon. We'll do a Lambda Rota quiz. But Dorothy stops by the butcher, which sounds super strange in like the United States standards today. We don't just go to the butcher and get a leg of lamb. Like we go to Kroger or Walmart. Right. But you know, in 1940,
00:11:01
Speaker
five and earlier and later, that was extremely common, just to stop by the butcher and get your meat, of course, stop by the baker and get your bread. There weren't any superstores that one could run to at that time to get their required items for the week or for the month. But while there, she reportedly joked to the butcher, chatted with some friends as she went about her errands just being her true self.
00:11:26
Speaker
In an article published on February 13, 2021, so pretty recently, called The Strange Disappearance of Dorothy Forstein, the author wrote that by the time she returned home, it was nearly dark. And thinking it would be much easier to get the groceries
00:11:42
Speaker
out of the car or whatever and into the house before going back to her friends to get the kids because it was dark, you know? So she says, I'll wait and get the kids after I put these groceries up because it will just be easier. I don't have kids, but I can attest to the fact that it can be very difficult to bring anything into your home with the dogs that we have that are jumping on you and licking you. So I can only imagine that feat
00:12:09
Speaker
Oh yeah, it is a feat. Mm hmm. Which is why, you know, I wish they had things like clicklists. Back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. Costco delivery. Yeah. So yeah, I get that, that choice because that's hard. So totally off topic, but I am writing my Patreon mini episodes for the month and I want to do one for Costco must haves.
00:12:36
Speaker
because I love Costco. So listeners, if there's a Costco or Sam's Club must have that you love, please comment. I'll do a status on Facebook, but please comment on that status. So I can kind of look into that and maybe highlight your needed item. You know, and that's good to know too, because some things in bulk, you're like, Oh, yes, I would use barbecue sauce in bulk. And then it's still in your pantry.
00:13:05
Speaker
a year and a half later. Yeah, where I'm always like, yeah, I'm going to get this bulk romaine lettuce and then it goes bad before we eat all of it. So what actually gets used? Right. What do we need from Sam's Club or Costco? I think that's awesome. We want to know.
00:13:20
Speaker
So, she puts her groceries away and I'm assuming from what I've read that this friend's house wasn't very far away. I'm almost thinking she could walk there. Okay. What it sounded like. But as Dorothy walked through her door, she is quite literally savagely attacked. As in... Someone is in her home.
00:13:41
Speaker
No, which oh weird, but as she's walking home so people think Someone was either following her or was just like hiding in the darkness waiting on her. She is attacked from behind She is hid in the head and it's as she's like opening the door so she's walking into her house somebody comes up from behind as the beating is taking place she is
00:14:11
Speaker
inadvertently and thankfully knocks the telephone off the base and you know in 1945 when you needed to make the operator yeah it would call the operator so thankfully because she knocked over the telephone the operator picked up and she's saying hello operator how can i help you and she hears the attack taking place wow i know coincidental for sure
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah. And when she can't get anybody to respond, she's like, hello, can I help you? Hello, are you okay? The operator quickly alerts the police and they promptly arrive on the scene.
00:14:52
Speaker
So I'm wondering at this point, and I'm sure you'll tell me, but because they're wealthy, I would think this was gonna be like a robber. Like somebody, because they waited if they were following her, they obviously waited strategically for this moment when the door has been unlocked. So I'm wondering if they're gonna come in and take things. But they don't though.
00:15:17
Speaker
They take nothing. Dorothy, from my understanding, was essentially beaten and then just left unconscious with a broken nose. Her jaw was broken and her shoulder was fractured. So this isn't just their beating her to get her out of the way to go steal things. This to me is like they're beating her to kill her.
00:15:41
Speaker
Oh my gosh. But then you think, why would they wait till that moment when she's walking in her house? I'm wondering if they were afraid to draw attention, doing it outside. So they did it in the house. I'm not really sure about that one. Investigators can tell though that she was beaten by both a blunt object and someone's fist.
00:16:09
Speaker
Oh gosh. Yeah. She's immediately rushed to the hospital. She finally wakes up and she could only weakly explain that quote, someone jumped out at me. I couldn't see who it was. He just hit me and hit me. End quote. Do we know a male?
00:16:24
Speaker
Yes. And later investigators do speak with people in their neighborhood. You know, again, this is a very rich area of town, so no one would expect something like this to happen there. Police were confident, if anyone did see anything unusual, that they would remember it. But there wasn't really a lot that neighbors were able to tell. Luckily, when they spoke to one of Dorothy's neighbors, and the McKenna YouTube video
00:16:53
Speaker
said that she had no way of proving this, but almost felt that this neighbor was the neighbor that was watching Dorothy's kids because wild would be peeking out the window. But a neighbor said that she was looking out her window as Dorothy approached her residence and remembered seeing someone like with her or walking behind her. And she didn't really think anything of it.
00:17:17
Speaker
because she just assumed they were together. But this person was walking behind her as she made her way through the evening shadows to her front door.
00:17:28
Speaker
So that could have been the attacker. Yeah, and that neighbor, whose name was Maria, admitted that she didn't look closely at the man to be able to identify him, because again, she assumed they were together. It maybe could have been her husband, you know, it could have been anybody. And it was a safe neighborhood, so she never would have imagined that Dorothy was in trouble. Yeah, we talk about that all the time, how unless there's something that stands out to you, you're not going to remember it.
00:17:57
Speaker
Right. And that's part of what makes Dorothy's case so puzzling to me later on, because there are some things that should stick out to people, but it doesn't. Oh, yeah, it's very intrigue. Very weird.
00:18:16
Speaker
Investigators labeled this attack an attempted murder because nothing was taken from their home. There's no other motive.
Investigation and Theories on Dorothy's Disappearance
00:18:24
Speaker
They would have had plenty of time to steal things, but they didn't. Captain James Kelly of the Philadelphia Homicide Division began trying to put the pieces of this weird puzzle together.
00:18:34
Speaker
He concluded that it could only have been someone trying to kill Dorothy because no money, no jewelry, nothing was taken from the home. Jules, her husband, was also investigated, which makes sense because he's closest to her. But he had an undeniable alibi. They could tell you 100% for sure that he was still at work. And his children were too young to have been involved.
00:19:03
Speaker
So the case was further complicated by the fact that Dorothy had no known enemies. She was well-liked. Remember, she's this social butterfly that the neighborhood loves her. So the most prevalent theory for police investigators was that the attacker may have been someone who appeared in court before her husband.
00:19:25
Speaker
and had assaulted more before revenge. I have to admit, I thought that too, because was this, I thought, well, if she didn't have any enemies and there wasn't another motive, I thought this had to be somebody trying to send her husband a message. Yeah, and that theory is going to come back up again. Okay. So no arrests were made, even though police exhausted every possible lead.
00:19:55
Speaker
Ultimately, Dorothy would recover from her injuries, but was so shaken by this incident that she was never the same again. So this happy, carefree person, her bubbly personality completely gone, which honestly, I get it. Oh.
00:20:14
Speaker
even remember why Rodney and I were talking about it. I think because we were talking about increases of violence in our world and stuff. And we were talking about how it's completely understandable that if somebody goes to war that they would come back and like their whole perspective on everything has changed. And I said, you know, on some small scale, I said, you know, if I were ever in a school building and there was
00:20:40
Speaker
a school shooting, I don't know if I'd ever be able to walk into that building again. Because that trauma would, and so I totally get it. I totally understand why she would have that complete shift.
00:20:54
Speaker
I mean, even at, because we obviously live at my fertility specialist doctor's office, like we are now recognized by the people who check you in for your appointments. They always say, didn't I see you here like two days ago? Yes, sir, you did. I'm basically going to move my sleep number into this waiting room.
00:21:15
Speaker
I'm gonna set a cot up in the corner. Yeah, I'm gonna set a cot up in here. But every time I'm in the same examination room that I was in when we found out we were having a miscarriage, I immediately cry.
00:21:25
Speaker
every single time. And that's not, you know, it's not obviously the same as her situation, but I could see how... It's trauma. Yeah. How her personality would change. So this bubbly Dorothy is replaced by an anxious woman who is both nervous and upset, jumping at the slightest noise in her house, compulsively checking and rechecking the locks on doors and windows.
00:21:53
Speaker
I mean, I know I do this. I will double check the doors before I go to bed at night, but this was almost OCD. She'd had to do it and redo it and redo it to make sure they were locked. She rarely went out of her home. She clung to the safety. She fell within the locked up house. She was sure that someone was out to get her, but the question was who. Gosh.
00:22:21
Speaker
That is tough. Yeah, because she doesn't even know, you know, it'd be one thing if, you know, you knew your attacker had blonde hair and was roughly this height and had, you know what I mean? And then you would only be scared if you saw someone who meets that description. But to not even know what your attacker looks like, it could be anybody. So you need to be afraid of anybody.
00:22:44
Speaker
She was so well liked, she never would have seen that coming. I mean, I could, I'm sure she could maybe justify it a little bit more if everybody in her town hated her and she got death threats every day, but she wasn't. So that was even more of a surprise that she's randomly almost beaten to death in her home.
00:23:04
Speaker
According to an article about Dorothy on America Haunting and said quote Jules foreseen was perplexed He was sure that no one with whom he had come into contact as a magistrate would bear him enough Grudge to hurt his wife or his family and yet he could not explain Dorothy's attack end quote it went on to say he seldom left his wife and children alone because for anything
00:23:28
Speaker
more than just work hours. He always tried to be home early, leave as late as possible, not be gone longer than he needed to be. But on the night of October 18, 1949, he did leave them alone longer than normal and that decision would go on to haunt him.
00:23:54
Speaker
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00:24:19
Speaker
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00:24:45
Speaker
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00:24:55
Speaker
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00:25:29
Speaker
Okay, Allison. So Jules had made plans to attend a political banquet on that October night.
Events Leading to Dorothy's Disappearance
00:25:38
Speaker
So October the 18th, 1949. Oh, so that's where he was?
00:25:44
Speaker
So not the night that she was savagely attacked because we've now gone forward four years. Okay. The first attack was in 1945. We're now in 1949. I did a time leap there.
00:26:02
Speaker
No, we're in 1949. I actually think I forgot to say that. So he has to attend a political banquet. And in my research, I found that he pretty much begged Dorothy to come along with him. He said things around like maybe getting out of the house and socializing would help you relax a little. Maybe you need
00:26:23
Speaker
just to interact with people and kind of come down a little bit maybe it would bring you back to your old self again he tries and tries and tries but Dorothy refused so all these years have passed and she is still at this point not brave enough to venture outside of her house for extended periods of time so he goes on to this political banquet telling her
00:26:48
Speaker
you know, I'll call you to let you know if I'm going to be late. Everything will be fine. Don't worry. We know at 9pm Dorothy telephone to friend to arrange a shopping trip that you had planned for the next day. So she's still getting out just
00:27:04
Speaker
with close people when it's daylight, not when it's starting to get dark. But she's going to be at home though, by herself. She's okay. Okay. She can lock the windows and she's doing that compulsively. Right. And she's not really by herself. So her older daughter is with a friend, but her younger kids are at home with her. Okay. She's the only adult, but there's other people there with her.
00:27:32
Speaker
Jules is leaving the office after the party and he called to check on
00:27:38
Speaker
his wife and says, you know, I'm not planning to stay too late. I'm not going to be home late. Dorothy reassures him that everything was fine at home. She joked with him for a moment, almost seeming like her old self to him. But before she ended her phone call with her husband, she said something really strange. Okay. She said, quote, be sure to miss me as she hung up the phone.
00:28:10
Speaker
And I don't know if, because I'm thinking, if this were Anthony and I having a conversation and he's at a conference and I had to stay here because I have work and we can never take off because there's no subs. So, like, I'm wondering if she said, like, be sure to miss me, like being sarcastic because she's at home and he's there. Like, don't have too much fun without me. Yeah. Or if she's like, be sure to miss me when I'm gone, you know, like, I'm wondering.
00:28:38
Speaker
And what tone did she say that? Jules did report he thought it was strange that his wife would say such a thing, but just played it off. You know, more than likely justifying it in his mind that she was just joking, acting like her normal self. But many people, Alison, do not believe she was joking. Oh. When Jules returned home that night, Dorothy was nowhere to be found. Are her kids there?
00:29:09
Speaker
We'll get to that. Okay. We'll get there. We'll get there. Okay. One thing I can say about this case that I often feel we can't say for most of the cases that we cover is that the timeline regarding Dorothy's case, even though this is 1949, stays pretty consistent throughout the years. Okay. Which is good. Yeah, we're not getting 80 different versions. Right. And most every source said that Jules arrived home around 1130 that night.
00:29:36
Speaker
Okay. Strangely, the house was dark when he walked through the door. I'm sure he was expecting his kids to be asleep because they're little. Oh yeah, yeah. He didn't think anything about not being met at the door with smiling little tiny faces greeting him. What he did think was odd was that Dorothy was also nowhere to be seen and the lights were out.
00:29:57
Speaker
So, he's probably thinking maybe she went to bed early. Yeah, and he tells investigators that, you know, I was thinking she's just in bed. Yeah. So, he makes his way up the stairs. Remember, this is a big home. Three story. Yeah, he's got a climb. Right. As he ascends the stairs, Jules heard the sound of muffled crying. He quickly dashes to his children's room and he finds his two youngest, Edward and Marcy, huddled together on the floor crying. What?
00:30:27
Speaker
huddled together means they were terrified by something. Yes. And if you remember, I mentioned that Dorothy and Jules had an older daughter, but she was with a friend that night and wasn't home. And it wasn't like Dorothy to be out this late at night. And it definitely wasn't like Dorothy to leave her two smallest kids at home with no one to watch them. Yeah, because heck, when she went to the grocery earlier, she asked the neighbor to watch them. Yeah. And yeah, this is not normal behavior.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird. And you know, we talk about, we try to justify things all the time. So Jules probably is trying to say maybe she just had to run out really quick. Maybe, you know, she's in the bathroom and the kids tried to find her and they couldn't and now they're crying. You know, like she maybe needed a cup of sugar and had to run over to the neighbor's house. Right. And they were thought to be asleep, you know.
00:31:20
Speaker
But Jules, when he went over to check on the two cowering children in their bedroom crying, the oldest daughter, Martha, looked into her daddy's eyes and said, quote, mommy's gone, end quote.
00:31:33
Speaker
Uh, so they're huddled together. So clearly something horrific happened. And the first thing she says is mommy's gone. Yep. So this was not just mommy leaping. Right. Because she would have been old enough, I think to say like mommy left. Mm-hmm. There's a big difference between mommy left and mommy's gone. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cause he left.
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah, it implies like her autonomy, like she willingly left. Yes. Golan has a much different connotation. Mm hmm.
00:32:12
Speaker
When he checked the rest of the house, he could find no sign of Dorothy. Marcy had told her father that only 15 minutes before he arrived home. So 15 minutes, she had gone downstairs. So remember, this is a three story home after being woken up by noise. So she hears the noise. She goes downstairs. She saw a middle aged man wearing a brown Pete cap, carrying her mom down the stairs over his shoulder.
Eyewitness Account and Investigation Challenges
00:32:41
Speaker
What's the mom doing? Is she screaming? Is she... She said...
00:32:50
Speaker
This sounds very you know the scene and how the Grinchful Christmas the cartoon episode is all about Christmas to me, but The cartoon version when she's like Santy Claus. Why are you stealing my tree? Mm-hmm, and he's like there's a light that won't light on this side. I'm taking it back, you know, and I'll bring it back to you This is what this reminds me of so she said her mother was still wearing her pajamas and I read somewhere that they were red pajamas and
00:33:17
Speaker
Mm-hmm, and I feel like that's a pretty distinctive color and that mommy appeared to be sleeping That's weird so was she knocked out then cuz that's what I would think yeah That's what I think because there's no blood anywhere in the house So like you would have had to been when she saw the man carrying her mommy She mustered up all of the bravery she had and stepped out into the hall to ask the man where he was taking her mommy and
00:33:45
Speaker
She tells Jules the man patted me on the head and said, go back to sleep, little one. Your mommy's fine. Before he left the house, locking the door behind him. Locking the door behind him? Yes. See that detail is weird to me. I also read that he said something about like to her, mommy's had trouble sleeping. I'm going to help her sleep or something like that. Okay. That just gave me some fun.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, because I wasn't thinking sleep and I was thinking more like eternal sleep. Yeah. But this, the man in the hat reminds me of that Jesse Gutierrez case, where she, remember the sister woke up and saw the man in the cowboy hat. Yeah. And people at first don't want to believe it because they're so young. Right. But I mean, that is too detailed, I think. And they're, they're
00:34:42
Speaker
horrified, right, huddled together. But that, I'm telling you that small detail, there's always like a small detail that stands out to me as really weird. And it's the fact that the man locked the door behind him. Well, I think that's really weird too. And investigators would agree with us because if he was coming just to steal
00:35:05
Speaker
to take mommy. Locking the door almost seems a protective instinct to the children in the house. And if you tend to kill their mommy, like why take the extra step to protect the kids? When she popped out, why didn't he just knock Marcy out too and leave her laying there and take mommy?
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah, that is bizarre to me. And the pat on the head also is a really weird thing to do. Like he didn't want to upset her or scare her, so he pats her on the head, gives her a glass of water, and sends her back to bed, just like in the Dr. Seuss book. Wow. Yeah, this is a bizarre case.
00:35:51
Speaker
While Jules was surprised that she would have left the children at home by themselves, as I mentioned earlier, he just assumed that Dorothy had gone over to see a friend or maybe the neighbor. I know a lot of people who slip out of the house when their kids are asleep to quickly visit neighbors. There's not one case. What is that case? And
00:36:11
Speaker
the parents are at a resort i'm pretty sure it's in england or something oh um mccann is the last night yeah i'm blanking on the first name now and they leave them madeline madeline mccann and she's essentially stolen out of her bed this year
00:36:30
Speaker
So that kind of thing happens, mommies and daddies quickly slip away and then come back. So Jules was sure this was what Dorothy had done. He telephoned for several hours to people he thought she might have visited, but no one had seen her. Well, yeah, because your daughter Marcy told you what happened. Yeah, mommy's gone. When he can get up with no one that has seen her, he finally gives in and calls Captain Kelly. So the same detective that investigated her assault in 1945.
00:37:01
Speaker
The detective soon started having his men check hospitals, checking morgues, hotels over Philadelphia to see if anybody that looked like her had checked in was injured or dead.
00:37:15
Speaker
Right. And per an article on Strange Outdoors, police even went door to door in the neighborhood. But in this instance, no one had seen anything unusual. So in the attack, we see the man following behind her. But in the disappearance, we see nothing unusual. So this time nobody even saw this man come in. But here's my other question that I just now thought about.
00:37:41
Speaker
And let, no, and see, I don't even believe that. I was going to say, unless Jules forgot to lock the front door when he left, but I'm telling you with the fact that she was so compulsive about checking things, I don't get the sense that that would have tapered off even four years later. So I'm curious how this man with the hat got in. He even got in, yeah.
00:38:04
Speaker
And that's something people still question. And we are going to talk kind of about that here in a little bit. OK. But officers searched the house for any type of evidence in the house. They discovered Dorothy's purse. They discover her keys. Nothing was amiss. There was nothing missing. Nothing turned over. And nine year old Marcy is the biggest witness in this case.
00:38:32
Speaker
And she again tells police she was woken up by the sound of someone coming in, like a loud sound. She went to the hallway to investigate. She saw a man coming up the stairs, somebody she didn't recognize. He had a brown hat on. Her mother, she went on to say, so this is a more detailed version of what Marcy saw, who's lying face down on the floor of her bedroom. So she sees mommy.
00:38:54
Speaker
in the bedroom and she saw the man pick her up and carry her downstairs. So she's peeking into mommy's room she sees her and sees the man pick her up and Marcy says that she steps out into the hallway says what are you doing and he says go back to sleep little one your mommy is okay.
00:39:16
Speaker
and pats her on the head and walks out with Dorothy's limp body over his shoulder. So her details are staying the exact same. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she added the one about seeing her mom face down on the floor, but that could have been like all the time. I'll like try to remember something and I'll be like, Oh, this happened. And then somebody will be like, Oh, but what? And I was like, Oh yeah, that happened too. And I'll remember something else where she could have, you know,
00:39:42
Speaker
been telling her dad a very quick version of what happened because she was so scared. And then by the time she's talking to police, she's had time to calm down a little and can recall more detail. She told police that her father again returned home about 15 minutes later. So very consistent for a nine year old. Yeah.
00:40:02
Speaker
Which is not there for today. No, it's not. Big kids, consistency is hard. We know the man carried Dorothy down the stairs. We know the man carried Dorothy out the front door. We know he locked the door behind him. This is a lot of fun. Like what's he doing with her body when he's locking the door? Is he just, she's just dead weight over her shoulder or over his shoulder?
00:40:30
Speaker
I guess. And then you would think if he's carrying her, nobody saw a man carrying a woman over his shoulder walking down the street. Yes. And Marcy ran back to her brother. So doors locked. Marcy runs back to her brother, wakes him up and they wait, huddled on the floor, terrified until their father gets home 15 minutes later. The little girl again tells detectives, I have no idea who this man is. I have never seen this man before.
00:41:00
Speaker
Police are skeptical of Marcy's story and I understand because she's so young. But there was no sign of forced entry, no physical evidence that anyone had been in the property that shouldn't have been. So no strange fingerprints.
00:41:17
Speaker
And my question is, why would she lie about what happened to her mom or be smart enough to remember such an elaborate lie at night? I just don't think she's lying. No, I don't either. And because of her consistency, and she stuck to her account to those details, psychiatrists examined her, they were convinced she was telling the truth. Police finally buy her story of events.
00:41:45
Speaker
Wow. So it took that. It took an adult saying, this kid is telling the truth before they'll even listen, really. Yes. As bizarre as the story sounded, it was the only possible explanation that police had for Dorothy's disappearance is like,
00:42:06
Speaker
Nothing really. I mean, yeah, nothing random again. It's just so crazy. Nothing was disturbed in the house. Nothing's missing. No lamps are turned over to indicate a struggle. There's no indication anybody besides family had been in the house. There's not a single fingerprint that didn't belong to family.
00:42:24
Speaker
There was no strange anything in the mix. The investigators wondered how a man could walk down a sidewalk or street with a woman in her pajamas over his shoulder. Red pajamas? Yes, very distinctive color. Like, red is gonna show even at night time with the street lamps. It's not like they were camouflaged. Unless he put her into a car.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yeah. And I didn't hear anything, read anything about that, but I almost think he would have to unless they lived like maybe and had a wooded backyard or he, and he could slip into that or something. Right.
00:43:03
Speaker
While this neighborhood was considered a rich part of town, that does not exclude people from gossiping. I mean, Allison, we both live in subdivisions and we both know how nosy neighbors can be. So Worthy's case may seem like a long time ago, but it really hasn't and people really haven't changed that much.
Theories and Speculation on Dorothy's Fate
00:43:23
Speaker
So am I to believe that no one
00:43:26
Speaker
Not a single person was awake at 1130 that night and not a single person was getting a glass of water looking out at the moon and no one saw a grown man carrying a woman over his shoulder to either his car or down the street. Right. And yeah it just doesn't make there's so many questions. And how had he gotten into the locked house anyways. Right.
00:43:52
Speaker
questions investigators had was could someone have let him in? But if so, who could it have been? It would have to be Dorothy. But that doesn't sound like Dorothy. And it would have been her kids because they already would have been asleep. Right. Some people say could Dorothy have just up and walked away?
00:44:09
Speaker
There are so many questions and so many unknowns. But one thing we know for sure is that Dorothy was never seen again. No leads, no suspects, no explanations as to what might have happened to her or where she was taken. Newspapers all over the country, especially in Pennsylvania, carried stories about her disappearance and possible kidnapping. But by the end of October, the story was
00:44:35
Speaker
largely gone from the public view. It disappeared just as Dorothy had done. She simply vanished like she fell off the side of the world gone without a trace.
00:44:48
Speaker
So I wanna bring up a couple theories that I read in my research regarding the disappearance of Dorothy. So the first one is in the years since Dorothy's, we're gonna say abduction at this point, multiple sleuths, so professional ones and amateur ones like us have attempted to crack this case. And one theory that is most people say the most sensible
00:45:15
Speaker
concerns a 29-year-old textile salesman named Morris. Okay. In an article called Vanished into the Night, the Unsolved Disappearance of Dorothy Forstein decades later, her whereabouts remain a mystery. Why make your article title so long, people? I know. I know. Just say Vanished into the Night, Dorothy Forstein.
00:45:36
Speaker
Not done, simple, perfect. It was written by Gary Sweeney, so there's your tidbit from two nobody English teachers. Gary Sweeney made your title shorter. It was published on December 12th, 2016. It said that in September of 1944, a crowd had assembled in Philadelphia to protest the then Republican presidential candidate, Thomas Dewey, as he prepared to make a speech at the Pennsylvania railroad station.
00:46:06
Speaker
Two policemen, James McCarthy and Samuel Ralston, saw Morris and perceived his mannerisms to be threatening. They pulled him out of the crowd on charges of inciting a riot, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct. Morris was fined $10.
00:46:27
Speaker
That's not much. Well, of course in the 40s, I'm sure it was, but, you know. But now if we, you know, got pulled over for speeding and they were like $10, I'd be like, okay, let me Venmo you that real fast. Yeah. But he countered it by filing assault and battery charges against the two police officers claiming that they beat him for nearly two minutes. McCarthy and Ralston were originally held on a $1,000 bail by
00:46:56
Speaker
the then magistrate James McBride. However, the charges against the officers were later dropped by none other than magistrate Jules Forstein. So it has been theorized that Morris was who attacked Dorothy in 1945 in a retaliation effort against her husband for his help with these officers. And they also say this man is who abducted Dorothy. First of all,
00:47:27
Speaker
That is four years difference from 1945 to 1949. Yeah. Who is really late that long? I don't think anybody would. I feel like it would be as soon as you got out of the hospital because it's out of anger. You would have time to calm down by 1949. And I get, okay, so I don't understand
00:47:50
Speaker
the psychological mentality. But I'm going to try to psychoanalyze Morris right here. And in my head, I'm thinking, OK, so what he said these policemen did to him was to beat him. So if he were angry with Jules, it then psychologically would make sense why he would aggressively beat
00:48:19
Speaker
Dorothy. Right? Because that is the same thing he's saying he suffered. Right? Like he's trying to send a message like, let's see if you take this seriously now. Yeah. But the abduction doesn't make any sense. Right. Because it's not connected at all. That's true. It could have been he be here in 1945 and somebody else abducted her in 1949.
00:48:46
Speaker
Right. I mean, if somebody, and they knew that she would be, you know, home and not out because they knew she wouldn't leave her house anymore. And honestly, the beating and 45 by this guy makes sense because his motive wouldn't have been robbery. It would have just been to be, and then leave, which he did. But that still leaves us with not knowing who abducted her and why.
00:49:15
Speaker
Correct. And the second theory that many discuss as a likely possibility is that Jules was behind the disappearance of his wife.
00:49:28
Speaker
I don't know about this one, but I'll get your input on it. He obviously had a solid alibi. He was at that party, but that doesn't mean that... I mean, that doesn't really mean anything to a man of wealth, right? Because he could have just paid someone to go to his house and kidnapped his wife, which would explain how they would have been able to get in because he could have given them a key.
00:49:50
Speaker
This would also explain why his children were left unharmed, because the person would only be there to take Dorothy and not to hurt his kids. Thus, the little pat on Marcy's head, trying to calm her down, saying, you know, mommy is fine, locking the door when he leaves. Mm hmm.
00:50:12
Speaker
From the outside, the two seem to have him have a happy marriage. I didn't read anywhere in my research that indicated they were unhappy behind closed doors. Still, there are many who think he is responsible. I mean, we have had many stories, many cases on our show where what seems to be true is not
00:50:34
Speaker
actually true. I mean, you had that one story, the House of Horrors, and they were wealthy, and things seemed to be great, and then the man annihilated his entire family. So, I mean, I don't necessarily, my gut isn't telling me that he
00:50:56
Speaker
did have something to do with it necessarily, but I don't want to discount it completely because, I mean, she had changed in many ways from the wife, you know, that she was before. And if he's a rising political figure, and I don't, again, I don't want to put this on him, and I'm not saying he's guilty, but I'm trying to, again, theorize. You know, maybe he was like, well, I need to have somebody who's going to help me
00:51:25
Speaker
You know, in this political realm, like Dorothy used to, it does explain away a lot of my questions that I have. I feel like I would need to know more about him personally before I could make any type of judgment about his involvement in her disappearance.
00:51:50
Speaker
I mean, I think it's such a talked about possibility because like you said,
00:51:56
Speaker
answers some hard questions like how did he get in the house you know like it answers a lot of the questions but that doesn't necessarily mean that right right exactly this is the theory right so the final thing is that Dorothy either staged this abduction or she just ran away we know she was paranoid after her first attack she was scared to be anywhere could she have been so scared that she felt she needed to start over
00:52:25
Speaker
Maybe she just needed to escape and running away was the only way that she knew how to do that She also wasn't in a very good mental state. So some people believe she could have been on like some type of manic episode and That her fleeing was a result of that unstable mental condition but I feel
00:52:51
Speaker
I don't know how I feel about this one. I don't think that this is it. It does not explain to me the man carrying her unconscious over his shoulder. Right. I think of all of the theories, this one is the least likely to me. Yeah, and I think she would be if she's so scared that she doesn't want to leave her home, I would think that the idea of completely starting over and having to trust complete strangers
00:53:19
Speaker
in order to leave everything that is familiar would not be a choice that she would make. I agree with you and sadly I don't think we will ever know what happened to her.
Conclusion and Dorothy's Legal Declaration as Deceased
00:53:33
Speaker
In 1957, President Judge Charles Cline of the Orphans Court stated that Dorothy would be declared officially dead as of October 18, 1956, seven years after she vanished and just months after her husband died of heart disease.
00:53:51
Speaker
His decision was based on a petition filed by Dorothy's oldest stepdaughter. Captain David Roberts of the Philadelphia Homicide Squad concurred that all efforts of police and private investigators had failed to discover a trace of the missing woman. As the years tick by, the likelihood of finding out what truly happened to Dorothy grew dimmer and dimmer.
00:54:11
Speaker
The truth is out there somewhere and we are charged with finding it. So, Thales, it's my hope that because we're sharing what has happened to Dorothy that we may see a revival in her case. I hope that people start talking about her again. I hope that she isn't forgotten. If you do anything today, share her case with one other person. Speak her name. Let her be remembered.
00:54:32
Speaker
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00:55:02
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.