Transcript
Speaker: And just like that, the World Cup is somehow out of our lives, the men's World Cup out of our lives for another four years. It was a whirlwind, Amit, because it happened so fast, but also that Qatar Ecuador game feels like it was about seven years ago. Yeah, that really was a long time ago. The Argentina France final was like the dominating moment of so long and it's already feels like a long lost memory.
Speaker: that you cherish and framed in a photo. Yeah, I don't know, like the Wolverine meme. You're like, I missed the World Cup. How do you cherish and frame a game in a photo? I don't know. Just get a framed messy holding the trophy photo.
Speaker: That works. Or on the bus, getting sunburned yesterday. Made it about 20 % of the original plan. Credit to them. This is the World Cup After Dark podcast. This is it for us. This is our last World Cup show. I mean, it's been a ride. We've had a lot of great memories. We covered Argentina and France in detail. So on this podcast, we kind of just wanted to look back at everything else. The memories we made, the moments we had along the way.
Speaker: and hand out some awards, name some guys to some teams. I'm hearing rumors that you have built three different best 11s for the World Cup. I have. I have. Very exciting, really. Really, that's why you should listen to this episode is for that specifically. You come prepared. How do you want to start? Do you want to start by just diving into an 11? Do you want to just intersperse some moments of memory, defining theme, big picture takeaways?
Speaker: Why don't we start with the 11s get them out of the way actually so then we can talk about just our thoughts Alright, so so how did you have three 11s? Can you can you explain the process right? So the first 11 is made up of players from the four semifinalists and
Speaker: The next 11 is from players who were on the four losing quarter finalists, who all those teams had very good tournaments. And the last 11 is for anyone else that deserved a shout. So you'll see at that 11, the players who were there. And then the first two 11s have a few honorable mentions for guys who clearly had great tournaments, but just didn't fit in the 11 of the rules that I made. So there you go.
Speaker: And this first 11 we're going to give is kind of a traditional, this would be the theoretical best 11 of the tournament. Generally, you have to make this many finals to make a tournament best 11. Pretty much. I think this is looking at it. I think this is pretty close to the best 11 that you might get traditionally. So why don't we start there? I'll let you chime in. So up top, left wing, you have Kylian Mbappe. No quibbles there. Right wing, you have Lionel Messi.
Speaker: No quibbles there. He won golden ball. The other guy won golden boot. I think that's fine. Here are the striker. This was an interesting one. I decided to put Antoine Griezmann as the third forward line player over Olivier Giroud and over Julian Alvarez, who both of them I put in my honorable mention here.
Speaker: I thought they both had good tournaments, but I thought Griezmann was a little bit better. So we can talk about that in a second. I'll just run through it. We'll get through it. Midfield, Luca Modric for sure is in here. Enzo Fernandez for sure is in here for me. And then third, I have Sofian Amrabbat from Morocco, who I thought was so good at getting Morocco to the semifinals, had to get the spot.
Speaker: in the starting midfield. So that dropped to honorable mention, Rodrigo de Paul and Brozovic from Croatia as well. You could throw some other Morocco players on there. I will mention too, if you want back line left back, I put Theo Hernandez. I just thought, you know, a theme here outside back is a tough position. He was the best outside back for this team. Argentina won, but
Speaker: I don't think either of their outside left backs were particularly great. We saw very specifically the issues with Acuna, tried to do wide player things. Center backs, I put Kuti Romero as top choice center back, thought he was the best Argentina one. Second, I have Josco Guevardial, who was the breakout star of the tournament. Messy soul snatching, be damned, tough for him.
Speaker: And then right back, Atra Fakimi, who, I think, again, went outside back as a tough position to have a star. He's clearly the best in the world, I think, at this point. And he really helped Morocco get there. And then in goal, I went with Deebu Martinez. He won two penalty shootouts. He made a save in the 120th minute of the World Cup Final to save Argentina. I don't think there needs to be more than that. So that's the 11. Throwing out, you know, Boonu, Levokovic were very good as well.
Speaker: Um, there were plenty, there were other good players on all the teams, honestly, that, you know, all four of these teams had pretty good team performances top to bottom. And I think for manager, I think I'm going to give it to Waleed Raghugri over Lino Scoloni because he had more of a job to do. Lino Scoloni getting to the final and winning it. Wow. That was very impressive. And anytime you win a world cup, you can be named manager of the tournament. That's just fair.
Speaker: But I think on value what Rogroghi did with the squad, especially what we were thinking of Morocco, was impressive. So there it is. Have your thoughts. I think I would have put Julien Alvarez in the team. I think you made a weird thing to do Griezmann there. He's not a striker. He's not a striker. But I get it. It's fine. It's your team. No problem. I think I would put Julien Alvarez up top. I think he changed the course of events for Argentina in this tournament. I think his addition made a big difference for them.
Speaker: Hard to disagree with your midfield, even if there are other players that were certainly deserving of it. I think Amravatch and Majic were. Yeah, we left off Chomany, who was very good in this tournament as well. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's a hard thing to do to pick between a bunch of great midfielders. And I think your defensive backline is pretty much spot on as well. I think this is really good. The two center backs are a good choice, and it's hard to look past to give me a right back.
Speaker: Yeah, I didn't think either the French center backs deserve the spot here. Maybe if Kanate had played all tournament, definitely not Dejan Lovren, right? Yeah, the Moroccan center backs were too early in and out. Yeah, so.
Speaker: I think that's, yeah, that's the team of the four semifinalists. I think I feel pretty good about it. Yeah, it's a good 11. I think the manager question is also a super interesting one. I think Ragawi and Scolone are both very deserving of it. Scolone won the World Cup, so I think he'll be OK in Ragawi. Yeah. To manager the tournament award in Scolone will be all right. But it doesn't take away from the job that Scolone did, because I think while he may not have had as big of a task, he also may have had an even bigger task with the whole mentality thing for Argentina.
Speaker: But Ragawi was also fantastic and had his team playing so well. And they certainly were the team that exceeded pre -tournament expectations more than anybody else. And for that, he's deserving of his honor. All right, your second 11. Second 11. So these are only the four quarter -finalist losers. So very narrow here. But I thought all of these, I mean, you'll look at the 11. It's plenty good. So here we go. Up top, left wing, we have Venetius on Brazil.
Speaker: He's pretty good tournament. He was just a really good ball progress or creator for them. May their offense go at striker here. I've got Harry Kane. I thought he was very good this tournament. Yeah, he missed the penalty in the quarterfinal against France. But he did. I forgot that it happens. I mean, I did forget that happened, but it's always tough for him. But, you know, his passing has made a big difference. He was one of the reasons England were better this run than last run, even if they didn't make it as far.
Speaker: And then last on the front line I've got Cody Gackpo who was breakout star for the Netherlands. Very fun, good tournament from him. Scored a lot of goals on low XG in the group stage and helped Netherlands do their thing. In the midfield I've got Bruno Fernandez for Portugal who I thought was their best attacking player. Jude Bellingham, another breakout star for England.
Speaker: like we said, really made Southgate style go. And then at defensive midfield, I have Casamiro who didn't necessarily like stand out, particularly all tournament, but that's what he does well. And it's not his fault. I think that Brazil got bounced in the quarterfinal. They lost on penalty kicks and they pretty much dominated Croatia on XG on that match. Brazil were mostly Brazil this tournament and it was Casamiro was mostly him. So he's going to get a spot there.
Speaker: back line I'll leave left back last center back I got to give one to Pepe on Portugal he scored a goal and Portugal were generally pretty good until Morocco got them and he almost saved them against Morocco but um
Speaker: I'm giving to him other center back. I could have picked either of the Brazil center backs here. I decided to go to Tiago Silva. I know he's a little less fast than... Quite the veteran center back pairing you've selected there. Yeah, I just thought it'd be fun to give these guys a run out. And then I write back Denzel Doomfries. He was integral to the Netherlands set up by being such a good right wing back.
Speaker: At left back here, you know, it's a tough one. I have Luke Shaw question mark for England. I thought he was good. This one was tough. If you look at these teams like Brazil's left back, it's bad, bad, right. You go to Netherlands or left. Black is daily blend. Bad. You use solid, but not really good when it when it counted. It's also daily blend. Yeah, he's just yeah, he's a little old, but I did. I did put a few other old players in there as well.
Speaker: Croatia, right, I think it's Edmundo Sosa, or sorry, Croatia was the last round. They don't count here, excuse me. Portugal.
Speaker: Portugal to Alconcello came off the bench at points and they had other players here. So a little inconsistent. I think I can get behind the Luke Shaw argument. I think he was really good against killing him in the England France match. And I think that goes along. Yeah. So we'll give it to him. And then honorable mentions here. Just a few. There are plenty of good players. Gonzalo Ramos just for
Speaker: should have played more, but was clearly very good at Stryker. I'll give one to Rafael Liao as well. Also maybe should have played more, an Op -Ed a Super Sub. Wundera Charlassen, who was really good this tournament for Brazil. Again, really bummed that Brazil lost the way they did, but that could happen in a World Cup. Frankie De Jong as well, very good for the Netherlands in their midfield, pulled the strings. And then Bukayo Saka, who
Speaker: helped England kind of dominate France in the quarter -final despite losing. So there you go. And then for manager here, I think it's an interesting point. Who's the goalkeeper? You never got to the goalkeeper. Oh, I never got to the goalkeeper. Oh, Allison. You apparently did not get to the goalkeeper at any point here. No, I didn't. I forgot him on this 11. It's a tough one.
Speaker: In my head, maybe Allison, I don't know. What do you think? I guess. I mean, I can't. Pickford? I can't consciously give it to Jordan Pickford. Allison, Portugal, no. Whose other team here? Netherlands. They lost their shootout. Yeah. He was good, though. Nopurt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: I guess it's Allison by default sure even though they lost on pens that is tough but he it was good for he made some good saves in the group stage they didn't matter but um who's your manager here then yeah so this one was interesting I thought it's a toss -up and a
Speaker: Not a toss -up, I'll tell you, but I thought it was really close between Louis Van Hall and Garrett Southgate, who both actually had good tournaments and are very good international managers. I'm going to go to Louis Van Hall because the comeback against Argentina was really unorthodox, but it worked, and I think he deserves credit for that.
Speaker: But you could also give it to Southgate because his England team outplayed France in a quarterfinal and finally answered those questions. So it could go one of two there. I'm going to go with Van Hall, but that's that's just personal preference. Yeah, I'd say you're right. There's a lot of talent in that team. I think we said it a lot on this podcast. Harry Kane was really good for England at this tournament, not necessarily in the goal scoring department, but in the everything else department. And that allowed them to play the way that they did.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm good. No word to be found in this 11 Cristiano Ronaldo. Yeah. Yeah, tough. Not even honorable mention? No. Scored a goal and tried to claim he scored another one. Right. Yeah, that doesn't count.
Speaker: Third 11 here and this is for anyone else Probably missing some players. So if you're listening and you want to have at me, please do I'll be thankful in the front line. I put Youngman Sun for South Korea. Okay had a very good moment to get them in he did I put Danny Olmo who was Spain's best attacker on their front line I wanted to put a player from Spain's front line here and
Speaker: And I couldn't put Alvaro Morata, because he didn't play enough. But you could maybe make a case there. And then I put Christian Pulisic, because he was US's best attacker, and they made a round of 16. So there you go. At center midfield, I put just three young, exciting, attacking players who I think are all going to get sold for a lot of money. Or two of them won't, but their price tags have been heavily inflated.
Speaker: Probably guess, Padri, Musiala, and Mohammad Kudus of Ghana. Despite not getting through, had a very good tournament, even in only three games. Same with Musiala who didn't get through, but he was excellent. And then Padri, he's part of the reason why Spain didn't get through, but he's also their metronome in the midfield and does a lot of good things for them. So there you have it.
Speaker: In the backline at Centerbacks, I've got your guy, Stoke City, current Stoker star, Harry Souter. He played very well in Australia, a team that made a surprise run to the round of 16 and nearly threatened two chances away from getting an equalizer against the eventual champions. So Harry Souter gets one. I gave one to Tomiyasu here. Japan, I thought, deserved a player.
Speaker: You know, they were very collective if you look at them individually. It's hard to necessarily pick out one, but he was a good defender for them. And then outside back, really, really tough at this point to single out anyone that particularly played above and beyond. So these are just two guys on two teams, two of the round of 16 teams that I thought deserved a shout.
Speaker: Matti Cash on Poland, their left back. You know, Poland made it to the knockout rounds. He was fine. And then Yusuf Sabali on Senegal. Again, you read me out his ratings. They were all right at seven. He was fine. But Senegal were good. So I appreciate that you did that with a straight face. You put Matti Cash and Yusuf Sabali in a somewhat team of the tournament with a straight face. That was impressive. Well done.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, listen, there's caveats. This is the third 11, and it's not just the third best outside backs. It's the best outside backs off of anyone who's not in the top eight. And at least two of these teams made the round of 16. If you overlook the fact that his defense conceded 12 goals, my man Keisha Fuller deserves a shout out here. Score the goal for Costa Rica. You guys should pay. That's a big goal. You know what? If they had gone through, he probably would have been in. For two minutes, they were.
Speaker: two minutes they were. Here for manager, I'm going to give it to Graham Arnold for Australia, what he did pretty clear in my mind. And I'll give a backup shout, just a small shout. Not really a shout. I just want to say his name and talk about Greg Berhalter had passed the test. He did his job. But listen, for the United States, for everything that happened for them, obviously we
Speaker: could talk about them more than almost any other team because we're familiar with them. Yep. But he did a good job this tournament, I think. I think he did good. So there you go. Okay. I like the Muhammad Qudu shout. I think he was good. Missing my dude, Isa Laidouni from Tunisia, put in a shift in the midfield, was Sophie on Amerbaut before Sophie on Amerbaut was cool. Big belly guy in the midfield.
Speaker: Having a Germany player in there, it smells weird to me, but that's fine. I guess you could have like, is there a shout for Alphonso Davies? Yeah, he was really, really good. If you're talking about teams that didn't get through, I could make a fourth 11, right? Round 16 team. No, we're not doing a fourth 11. Fourth 11 group stage teams, Alphonso Davies, first choice left back. Listen, listen, at left back, I honestly, you know what, right now,
Speaker: The fact that we went three minutes, yes. I will rescind Maddie Cash's spot on my third team, World Cup After Dark 11. I already gave a few spots on this team to players that did make their own 16. Apologies in advance.
Speaker: Alfonso Davies, that's yours. Okay. He's not even a left back for Canada. He's a left winger. But like, sure, go play in there. Yeah, poor baddy cash had his had his award all drawn up was getting ready to put on the wall. And it wasn't there. I feel like somebody from Saudi Arabia should be here. Maybe it's all the sorry. Yeah, you know, I'd give a maybe it's ever an arch at the manager spot. Yeah, I was gonna say
Speaker: You know who's getting no one no one on this team is Belgium. Yes Bye -bye guitar as well. Kevin de Broido best player in the world. Maybe no spot on the World Cup after dark 311. There we go
Speaker: I think Ecuador may be a bit hard done by it to not get anybody in one of your teams. Yeah, and her Valencia, you know, I maybe should get in over Danny Olmo, who was fine. Yeah, but you just have this thing with Spain, where even though that got knocked out, you wanted them to be something better. I think that was a fun exercise. I think that was a good exercise. I hope to just remember some people at this World Cup, and it was good. What is another thing that maybe you'll remember from this World Cup? A big takeaway, or even just a moment?
Speaker: Yeah, so I saw a stat out there. This is the most goal scored in a World Cup. And it's interesting. I also read an opinion piece from Michael Cox, who's a writer at The Athletic. He's a tactical guy, zonal marking on Twitter. I've been following him. He's been pretty popular for years. He wrote a whole book on the evolution of tactics Europe. Great.
Speaker: Alright, that's just some context. And he said that while this World Cup was good, it suffered from some pretty boring first -haves in their group stage, and the overall quality wasn't excellent.
Speaker: But the good things it had for it were the narratives were great. The final was great. Some of the moments we saw were great. So in that sense, I think I just bring that up as a point, plus the goals. This was a pretty entertaining World Cup. And I don't remember all the bad first halves. Because you slept through them.
Speaker: Yeah, I slept there a few of the four AM kickoffs. So I think for me, I didn't miss any of the bad parts. I think this was really entertaining World Cup. And the fact that one of our big takeaways is always that we're in this puffy voice, post -analytical football stage.
Speaker: The fact that we can still have attacking good soccer maybe is a sign that you shouldn't be so defensive at this stage. You have to go make your own luck. You have to be the team that goes after it, and you get rewarded for that. Is that very, very reductive? Perhaps.
Speaker: I think for Argentina winning too, right? They didn't win it by playing a super defensive style. No, it was hard. It's hard to do that at this stage. I think everyone is too good. The fitness and the pressing is too good. And then we saw a world cup where you get the most goal scored. Yeah, I think
Speaker: what this World Cup had that really went for it is it provided a pretty good amount of dramatic moments. Even if the first two days of group stage, like the first two match days of the group stage didn't deliver a whole lot, we still have Saudi Arabia upsetting Argentina, which was an insane moment at this World Cup. And Japan, Germany. Yeah, Japan, Germany. Obviously, Costa Rica, Japan, which was a thing in and of itself as well.
Speaker: The Iran Wells game which had a pretty fun ending. The third match day pretty much across the board delivered. Really, really good drama.
Speaker: just about everywhere you looked. And so that definitely works in the favor of this World Cup and helps to make it really good. And I think basically from the knockout round on, things were pretty entertaining across the board. There were obviously a couple of round of 16 matches that we didn't necessarily deliver England, Senegal, France, Poland, which we kind of knew wouldn't from the start. But other than that, like Argentina, Australia was a really good round of 16 match. Netherlands, USA, an interesting round of 16 match.
Speaker: Croatia, Japan, obviously interesting. Morocco, Spain, interesting. And then in the quarterfinals, you know, from the quarterfinals on, we had four really good quarterfinals that were interesting. The two semifinals weren't great, but I think France, Morocco was a good game. And then obviously the final was one of the best finals we'd ever seen. So I think, yeah, as far as on the field action is concerned, I think this was a above average World Cup, at least, and perhaps even more. And I had a very good time. So that's what matters. No, I agree with you completely. I think
Speaker: the third day of group stage matches, like, as you said, was a particular highlight. This format has kind of been around, but the way that, you know, probably some luck with the schedule unfolding, but then also the way they just kind of shaped it up. It was really, really exciting and fast paced. And because teams now understand the not that they didn't before, but everyone has the answers is a phrase I've said before.
Speaker: made it so that everyone was going in the final day with a lot on their agenda yeah that's the thing is i think the final day was as good as it was because maybe what happened before wasn't so great and so that kept everybody hanging around and that allowed that final day to really deliver because
Speaker: Qatar and Canada were the only two teams that went into the final day without a point and eliminated. Everybody else had a chance and had something to play for. And for the most part, they did. And I think that helped make the football on the final day really interesting.
Speaker: Yeah, agreed. So I think those are good, big, big takeaways from this tournament. It was really fun. I think it was just a reminder of how awesome the World Cup is. And we don't need to get too sappy about it. That's why we do this podcast because we like it. But I think to just move it in another direction, right?
Speaker: this is the last one with 32 until they decide to go back, which they might never because it's FIFA. And in their mind, right, 48 is an easy decision. If every World Cup game is a Super Bowl, a phrase that they have said in terms of planning an event, but also just like everything around it, why not have more of those things and get more money? So for their mind, I see
Speaker: why FIFA does it, and I don't agree with them. I think we're assuming that FIFA operate in their best financial interests all of the time. That's why the World Cup was in Qatar in the first place. That's not me being a conspiracy theorist. We have evidence that there were bribes. They admitted as much. Sep Blatter has admitted as much that that happened when this was awarded. I don't need to talk too much about the Qatar thing, but my point is that
Speaker: It's really hard to look at what happened and think that diluting the talent is the right idea. I get the idea of more games. I know as a soccer fan in the United States, having more games in the United States and Mexico and Canada is great. There's more venues, right? It's more soccer. Everyone loves it. It's the biggest event in the world. Bigger is better. But just think about 32 teams and the quality we saw at this tournament. It's really hard to want
Speaker: more teams and dilute that quality. I know we said the overall standard of world football is growing but that to me is really really disappointing. Second of all to that is how do you get a format that matches what the format that's succeeded on full display here. Yeah to play a bit of devil's advocate to that I think the dilution of talent question is
Speaker: I don't want to say overblown. I think it's a valid question. But I do think that you can make an argument that having more teams at the World Cup will raise the level of football in the international game. I think teams making the World Cup is great motivation, and I think it's good motivation for federations to attempt to be better.
Speaker: I don't disagree with the format stuff. I completely agree with that. I think finding a format that works is difficult. It initially was going to be groups of three. It looks like that has pretty much been thrown out the window because of how good these third match days were. So that's a positive sign.
Speaker: But I don't know, do you get the same drama with more teams if the groups are maybe a bit more unbalanced? I don't know. But also I think there weren't a whole lot of games at this World Cup where it was so drastic of a mismatch that it didn't make for an interesting viewing experience. And I think my hope, at least with 48, is that the number of teams that are truly far and away elite is still not that big.
Speaker: and that adding more teams to the bottom end of the pool doesn't necessarily dilute it as much as maybe we fear. But that's something that we have to see and will be an obviously different experience. Look, we're starting to watch it all. Yeah, it'll be different. But it will certainly be different. And there's fair claims to say that that could be a good thing or it could be a bad thing.
Speaker: Yeah. Anything else from this World Cup that you want to put on the record before we wrap it up here? We covered a lot of ground. We did. We did through this whole podcast. I mean, I don't know. It's hard to... I was thinking about this the other day about what we said about the Hollywood ending thing. And I know we did a whole thing on Argentina, France, but
Speaker: it's really, really crazy to me that Argentina won. Yeah. And I don't need, we don't need to do the whole podcast, but my point is just that soccer is so random. Like, and then we got that outcome. Like I, I, it's weird. I know we had not, I not tuning our own horn. We picked it.
Speaker: And I think even though we picked it, I've said this, we really were doubting the whole time our pick. We were like, what are we doing? France or Brazil are better. And I don't know what's the takeaway, the larger lesson from that.
Speaker: this was a really, it was really satisfying finish. And I just like, I started thinking about, I was like, was it really rigged? Did FIFA really, did they rig it to get Messi and Argentina to win? I know that's not what happened, but like, that was my brain went there. My brain went there. My brain was like, this was too good to be true, right? And I don't know. It was just really nice that that happened because I think most World Cups
Speaker: There's a big heartbreak. Every team has a heartbreak. But there's a big fan heartbreak. Brazil in 2014 losing at home and then Messi not getting his then. And then in 2018, maybe not a big heartbreak. I think France was fine.
Speaker: England, you know, it's coming home. They have a great run in the semifinals. I know not everyone's ready for them. You know, we can make this story up for any team that I don't need to do that too much, but I just, it's not supposed to go like that. And it was, I don't know how, again, maybe in our life that we'll see such a romantic narrative in a World Cup and for it to happen unless the USA wins in 26. And even that would be romantic for the 300 million people in the USA and no one else.
Speaker: Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway from that is football is still a really cool sport and the World Cup, regardless of all of the stuff that comes with it.
Speaker: is still a really cool event. And like you said, the fact that the romantic Hollywood storybook ending actually happened just reinforces how great this sport can be and how amazing the moments can be when they do happen.
Speaker: And that's something that we should always cherish. And that is certainly something that the people in this country, in Argentina, are going to remember forever. And it's going to be amazing. And that's super cool. Super cool.
Speaker: What we'll say to close this out is obviously a big thank you to all the listeners who tuned in throughout this World Cup. We had a great time doing this. We hope you had a great time listening to it. It's always sad to close this podcast down. And I don't know, it will be back in four years time for the World Cup, I would think, but who knows? It might be back in some other form at some point before the World Cup. I don't know. We don't know what's gonna happen next. But we can say that we had a great time doing this. We had a lot of fun.
Speaker: and it has been a pleasure to bring you World Cup After Dark again. You have anything you want to say to close? Echo all of that completely. We did this because it was a blast and like the World Cup Final, it delivered for us. So we're two very happy podcasters and who knows when we'll be back, but at least in four years, maybe sooner. We'll see what happens. Absolutely. Once again,
Speaker: Four of it for me, that's the entire crew. There's nobody else on the crew. It's the two of us. He did the editing. I did the recording. I did the hosting. We'll take all the credit. We'll take all the money that you want to just send to us. Cause we did a good job. Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back at some point, maybe hopefully. Cheers.
