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WCAD 4-48: Previewing the Argentina-Spain Final
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It's crunch time at the World Cup. Austin and Amit get together to preview the Argentina-Spain final, from tactics to x-factors and everything in between.
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Transcript
World Cup Final: Argentina vs Spain - Best Teams, Not Players?
00:00:01
Speaker
It's only fitting that the champions of soccer's two biggest continents meet in the World Cup final. It's Argentina, Spain on Sunday. And to preview it on this edition of the World Cup After Dark, I am Austin Miller, joined as always by Amit Malik. I think it vibes with the general thesis of this show, Amit, that maybe the best player or players in the World Cup aren't in the final. but the two best teams performance-wise might be.
00:00:32
Speaker
Well said. It's a good angle into it. These teams deserve to be here. They've put together the most complete performances and they, i think coming into the tournament, maybe we had them. a lot of people had them at three and four, but they definitely, definitely deserve to be
Managers' Influence: International Specialists Shape the Final
00:00:48
Speaker
here. And I think another fun point and you've probably seen is that all these club managers came in the game.
00:00:54
Speaker
They're not here. These are two international specialists that have like no club experience. Yeah. So um I think it's really fitting for a World Cup final to get such storied national teams, but also teams that really embrace ah the the little quirks of international football. And so push comes to shove, we're going to find out you know what what really matters in this game, which is really, really a lot more finely poised than I might have thought if you had told me Spage and Argentina were the two teams in the final
00:01:26
Speaker
on Monday. And now I'm like, oh man, this is's there's a lot of ways it can go. Some of that is the Argentina Magic, but some of it is just they're also keep performing really well, despite what you think of them.
00:01:38
Speaker
having seen kind of the Argentine proof of concept, right against England, you're like, okay, they can match the level of a big European team. They seem to just match the level of everybody they play, which is sometimes problematic, but again, they're here in the final and that's what matters. I think a lot of times when we talk about the world cup, final this is,
00:01:56
Speaker
It is its own unique genre of international football event and game,
Argentina's Adaptability: Key to Success
00:02:02
Speaker
right? And so you and i we sit here and we cover 103 World Cup matches in this tournament.
00:02:07
Speaker
We cover, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of World Cup qualifiers. We cover major tournaments, right? The the Euro, Copa America, AFCON, Asian Cup, Gold Cup. We're talking about it all.
00:02:20
Speaker
But the World Cup final in and of itself is its own different thing. And it's so difficult because generally we tend to lean to these games are played not to lose, right? You don't want to be the team that loses the World Cup final.
00:02:36
Speaker
But with these two teams and given what we saw four years ago, i don't know that I'm buying that these two teams are going to play not to lose this game.
A Fearless Final: Expectations vs. Tradition
00:02:46
Speaker
That's a really interesting point, because generally before 2022, it feels like every World Cup final is governed by fear. Exactly what you're saying. They're super cagey games. They often go into extra time before anything shakes loose. It's just really, really not a great soccer match. Then 2022 comes along and all bets are off. And I think it's Argentina, you know, putting in a generous performance.
00:03:13
Speaker
But on top of that, on top of the 2022 aspect, there's the semi-final aspect of both of these teams. Also just, I think, not being governed of that fear of losing.
00:03:25
Speaker
Now that could be narrative. ah casting by us onto what we've seen. But it does feel like that. Like one of the most definitive things we say about Argentina is they don't have that fear in them. That is like their characteristic of this 2026 team with the house money they have from 2022 and Spain.
00:03:41
Speaker
and spain Spain are un-game-state-able. They just keep going, and that's their DNA too. So in that sense, if there was ever a final to not be that dull cage match, this could be the one. Look, I think it benefits Argentina generally to make things less interesting on the whole of it, but I don't think we're going to see two teams playing with fear.
Tactical Chess: Argentina's Strategy Against Spain
00:04:05
Speaker
And I think so much of that comes down to, and we'll get to this in a bit when we start putting the pieces on the tactical chessboard and looking at it is can Argentina get Spain off their game? I don't think you or I, we're not going to reinvent the Spanish gameplay. Right. We know what Spain are going to look to do. Spain know what they're going to Argentina know what Spain are going to do.
00:04:26
Speaker
France and England, who are playing Saturday in Miami, they know what Spain everybody knows how Spain is going to approach this game. And so it kind of is going to come down to can Argentina get them off that? And if they do, what does that look like? And then what kind of spawns off of that as we go into our causation tree? Right.
00:04:45
Speaker
Yes. Spain went up against France and did what they did. So there's no one in the Spain camp who should be thinking or is thinking we're going to change what we did for Argentina.
00:04:57
Speaker
I mean, if anything, it's more conviction that you have to play 90 or 120 minutes of pedal to the metal Spanish football. Right. And so maybe one of the only factors that could slow Spain down It's early in the podcast to mention it, but they're playing outdoors, right? They've played every knockout of game indoors, which i think has generally been good grounds for their, you know, super awesome pressing and running.
00:05:26
Speaker
Maybe they have to manage their energy a little bit, but even in managing their energy, i don't think at any point Spain wants Argentina to have any time and space. The entire Spanish thing is about taking that away. and So I think that's the well they're going to again. And exactly as you said, all the pressure tactics-wise, football-wise, not mental-wise, is on Argentina to have answers for what Spain proposes, which, as you said, is a constant.
00:05:56
Speaker
I think the point about Spain is really interesting, right? You mentioned every knockout game has been climate controlled, right? Whether it's in Los Angeles or whether it's in, I think they were in Houston at one point. They were climate controlled for for all of their games. They were in Dallas, obviously, for the semifinal. They only played one game outdoors the entirety of this World Cup. That was in Guadalajara against Uruguay on the final day of the match stage. It's very interesting knowing that that's the team that now makes the final in France. The team who played all their games outside before the semifinal is not the team to get here.
00:06:24
Speaker
I think we can definitely do some over-reading into that situation as well.
Historical Stakes: The Significance for Argentina and Spain
00:06:28
Speaker
But let's talk about the stakes here, right? Far from it just being a World Cup final, there is obviously a World Cup at stake here.
00:06:35
Speaker
But there's a lot of history at stake here as well because, as I alluded to at the start of the show, Spain are the defending European champions, Argentina are the defending World Cup champions, and also the two-time defending South American champions. And so we are probably looking at the winner of this game,
00:06:53
Speaker
making their way into some sort of pantheon of greatness, right? If it's Argentina who lift the title on Sunday, Amit, it will be four straight major international titles. No team has ever done that. You think back to the most recent best run, right? It was Spain from 2008 to 2012. They won two euros and sandwiched a World Cup in between that.
00:07:15
Speaker
Argentina are looking to one-up that with two Copas America in 2021, in 2024, the World Cup in 2022, and then this in 2026. And Spain, obviously, are the defending European champions from 2024, which means they win this World Cup and they can maybe start their own cycle of major tournament success.
00:07:34
Speaker
Like, I think you're right in saying that going into this tournament, you and I didn't have these teams one and two, but we definitely had them probably three and four. And when you look at the history and what they've done recently, it's a fitting matchup and the stakes are all right there.
Messi's Emotional Ties: Barcelona and Beyond
00:07:50
Speaker
It's all right there. And honestly, to be fair, we we probably should have put Spain above England. um I think that's a it's splitting hairs at this point. It's too late. Go ahead. It was a it was a bracket thing, right? Yes, yes, yes. You're right. That's why got the bracket in England. We're on one side in France and Spain were on the other. And so that kind of led you to edge England.
00:08:11
Speaker
Right. That's actually... Thank you for bringing that up. That's a very good point. But yeah, there's something very, very fitting in these teams being the titans of their continents and getting this also fresh new matchup, right? Like, it felt like...
00:08:26
Speaker
France Argentina was was a redux a little bit of something we've seen in the the past World Cups or France England is so all yeah four years ago right that was a quarterfinal in 2022 yeah we haven't seen Argentina Spain at a really high level right like we almost did in March when it was supposed to be the finalissima right if you were that was promised Yeah. So we were supposed to get the game between the European champion and the South American champion. It was supposed to be in March in Qatar. And then everything went haywire in Argentina, ended up playing Mauritania in Zambia instead.
00:09:00
Speaker
I'm almost kind of glad now that we didn't get that game because now we get this game and it all feels fresh and new. I agree. And that's really fun. And obviously, like Messi, Messi's whole identity, everything about him is intrinsically tied to Barcelona, to Spain.
00:09:22
Speaker
Honestly, it's so funny. You mentioned that super run of Spain in 8, 10, and 12. like Those guys are what they are because they played with Messi at Barcelona. Not that he's responsible, but like they were all part of their shared togetherness. And that Barca DNA that is so evident in Spain is also like one of the driving factors in Messi's greatness. And so like this is a very, very...
00:09:49
Speaker
fitting different like boss level challenge for him in his last dance. There's also a branched multiversal timeline where Messi plays for Spain, right? sure He is eligible to play for Spain and chooses to play for Argentina, probably because he felt bad about leaving Argentina so early and never playing for an Argentine club, et cetera, et cetera. But these teams, I think, are are linked in a way that we haven't seen very much internationally.
00:10:13
Speaker
But again, as you said, we also haven't seen this particular matchup internationally.
Tactical Cohesion: Spain and Argentina's Strategic Edge
00:10:18
Speaker
Right. And the rest of this Argentina team is not so like Barca DNA, but there's a lot of Spanish familiarity here. There's a lot of Atletico Madrid DNA for sure. And you know, DNA, not DNA. Like I think what these teams have in common that makes it such a compelling matchup is the problem solving is the using all 11 players on the field at the international level in a way that maximizes more than the sum of your parts. And yeah,
00:10:52
Speaker
That as we think about Argentina, like what happens when your team IQ is maybe up against the team that finally like has it like one thing about England and France, like they're they're really great, really great players. But I just I don't think they're at the same cohesion.
00:11:11
Speaker
Certainly not. of the system because they're more star based. Like it was Kane and Bellingham. It was a Bop a in the front three behind him. These guys are about all 11. And so I do think that is one thing that worries me for Argentina, regardless of the talent is that Spain are not like a team that you get that collective advantage over.
00:11:33
Speaker
Right. And that has been what has propelled Argentina to so much success in the World Cup and in this run and in the Copa America. It's interesting we talk about how this feels like a new matchup. It's because it is. It's only the second time these teams have ever played at the World Cup. And the last time was all the way back in 1966. It's weird how the World Cup seems to kind of keep spitting out the same type of games without these teams sort of crossing paths. And so when when they do it feels very new and fresh and like Argentina, France is old news because it feels like we've seen that a lot. And now we get Argentina, Spain, and and we're really excited to be able to dig into it.
00:12:10
Speaker
Truly, it's very good matchup for the the World Cup, as you said. And it's um it's cool, right? It's cool. So
Midfield Battle: Argentina's Challenges Against Spain
00:12:19
Speaker
let's get into it a bit. Let's talk about this game. Let's preview the 11s on the field, the benches, the substitutes, the X factors. There's probably going to be a Shakira BTS mention coming in at some point because it's the World Cup final.
00:12:31
Speaker
So, Amit, let's start with the number one question that we we alluded to it earlier. We're looking at it now. What can Argentina do to get Spain off their game?
00:12:44
Speaker
It's a great question. i don't think you can fully. I think there's two things. One thing is just what Argentina did against England is kick the crap out of them.
00:12:54
Speaker
Be super physical. Be up for every challenge. Really, really contest the blade of grass and really not let Spain have easy possession in the final third.
00:13:08
Speaker
That being said, you might need to move your line of confrontation between five and 10 yards off what it was in England, because I think as a team building out, Spain are much more composed from the back than England. England are fielding like a Consa, a Gehi, Spence versus the fullbacks here, Poro and Cucurea.
00:13:32
Speaker
Everyone in the back six plus Rodri can just move that ball through you. So yes, while you're going to kick them and not let them turn and be super physical, I think you need to draw just a ah in but yeah an interesting line of confrontation. And that's perhaps a really, really fascinating factor. And then thing number two, right?
00:13:51
Speaker
France could not play out of the counter press. That was the biggest thing. And France did the whole four and six. Argentina aren't going to do that. It's going to be two guys up top and one of them is messy and it's and then it's eight.
00:14:03
Speaker
So can your back eight deal with Spain's six and now it'll be eight. The fullbacks are going to get in there. Can you play through?
00:14:14
Speaker
i don't know the answer to that question. And so like, um where where does it start? Does it start with the center backs? it start with the center mids? Like it's it's a really, really intriguing challenge. Argentina certainly played through England.
00:14:26
Speaker
Yeah, but they also, they tried to, and they did a little bit of it, but then this game swung against England because England just sat back and Argentina didn't have to play through anybody, right? They didn't have to play through a press. And so the early returns on that for Argentina in this tournament haven't been great, right? They didn't, they weren't super successful about playing through Egypt. They weren't super successful playing through Switzerland. And so now you're being asked to up the difficulty level. And look, as I said earlier, Argentina have responded to every level challenge they've gotten in this world cup. But I think that's so fascinating because you're kind of asking the same thing of like, well, if they can't play through Spain and they're just whipping the ball along and they're trying to, you know, beat them up physically. But again, at some point Spain are going to make those passing sequences work. They're going to get to those patterns. Um,
00:15:16
Speaker
then you're kind of looking at, are you just hoping that maybe it's not the Spain finishing game? Yeah. I mean, i in my head, I'm thinking they have to try to play through them, but yes you're right that against Egypt, that was a really bad sign that the Egypt midfield, which profiles more similarly to the Spain midfield and say the Swiss midfield.
00:15:38
Speaker
The other part of that Swiss game is game stay. Argentina gets up and then Swiss are playing through them. I just like that Argentina wasn't scared of the England press. It's what I'm hanging on. They didn't really create a lot, but there's ah there's a fine line between just kicking it long and doing what France did and Hunter transitioned versus trying to buy yourself time on the ball so it's not just Spain coming at you for 45, the first 45 minutes of the game. There's a key distinction in there in that your back six, seven have to be able to knock the ball around a little bit.
00:16:11
Speaker
And I think Argentina recognize that, right? I think they realize that they can't, they're not a huge transition team. They're not a hit it long, hold it up, play off a team. They just don't have those guys. Yeah. That's not been their success. That's not where they've been good. And so if they try to do that, it's probably going to go poorly. So I want to ask my next question of you here.
00:16:30
Speaker
Starting 11s, are we expecting anything different from either of these two sides from what we saw, particularly in the semifinal? I think Simeone has to be in to protect Messi in this game.
00:16:42
Speaker
Even if he doesn't do a lot offensively, like you really need help on Cucurea and Baena, who have shown themselves high, high work rate. So you match that with work rate.
00:16:53
Speaker
Now, the one thing you you could do here... is if you If you think you want to play more of a defense and counter straight-up game, you could start Lotaro and use him as the speed option in behind.
Argentina's Lineup Dilemma: Possible Changes and Strategies
00:17:06
Speaker
He used to do this a lot for Argentina. used to do this a lot at Inter. He's actually a really good guy at running a high line. I know his whole career, there's a lot of moments where he gets it wrong, but like I think that's what he's at as most effective. It's funny he gets the...
00:17:20
Speaker
the great header against England being super like locked into their, their half. But generally, if you think between Lautaro and Lautaro Martinez and Julian Alvarez, one of them is who you'd like in a more open game that you could kick over the top and use his speed or his runs, particularly his runs to try to find something against Kubarsi and Laporte. I don't think it's a mismatch, but I just think like, if you wanted to embrace that identity, you could, know,
00:17:47
Speaker
do that with Lautaro. It's been working though for Lautaro to be effective in these limited minutes, I think just because of the player he is at this point in his career. And you mentioned it ahead of the France game, right? One of the things you looked for France to do was to get Kubarsi running backwards. And so that could be an element that Argentina are looking to do here because that's something that Kubarsi, while he handled it well against France, particularly at the club level with Barcelona, hasn't always been great at doing that exact skillset.
00:18:14
Speaker
Right. And a lot of these Atletico Madrid guys like play against Barca and have had success with Simeone against Barca. So even if Simeone, the younger one, isn't having a great end product game, his outlet if in the channel between Kukure and Kubarsi could be really, really massive because on the counter, he's he's fast. Like think about the one time Spence had to come back and track him. If Spence isn't Spence, like that's a decent chance.
00:18:48
Speaker
You could have that in this game. And again, with Alvarez, maybe you're not beating Kubarsi for pure speed, but can you can you dribble? Like I want to see Messi and Alvarez try some 10 yard plus dribbles in transition in this game. Maybe it's not a headed over the top game like France, but it's a we we got the ball and we need to drive at them.
00:19:09
Speaker
The issue is you got to watch out for Rodri, right? He's the minesweeper. You got to find out how to avoid that guy. But you can find any chances to avoid him. Like there's a there's a there's a real look on the counter. So I guess the more and more we talk about this game, it feels like it's an Argentina counter ish game.
00:19:28
Speaker
But like, I think there will be moments where if you beat the first six to 10 seconds of the counter press, you could slowly walk them back and try to get through the midfield a little bit using Messi and using some progression in the midfield. Only other potential tactical wrinkle I'll throw at you from Argentina is this was kind of kicked about a bit ahead of the England game. It didn't come to pass.
00:19:53
Speaker
Could Argentina go five at the back to just try and occupy more space and kind of gum up those Spanish passing movements? There was talk that we might get Otamendi, Romero, and Lissandro Martinez in three center backs across.
00:20:07
Speaker
Then with the two fullbacks, maybe providing some width. Is that something you'd even consider here? It's something they haven't done at all this tournament, right? It hasn't been their style of play. Would you switch tactics to maybe try and buy some some some space clogging?
00:20:20
Speaker
It's an interesting idea. um It's tough with five. You're inviting a lot of pressure, right? yes Just generally. um And I don't love the way that Paredes, McAllister, Fernandez, if you're playing five, then you're dropping a Simeone, Alvarez or Messi, right? I just named six players.
00:20:42
Speaker
And so one of them has to go. And I just feel like you're a little light, like, I don't think Messi can do... Someone needs to do the running of two people. And out of all those guys I named, like unless it's an Enzo Fernandes super-duper star game, like I'm not sure you can get it with five. But I'll say this, like it's a Simeone move, as in big Simeone move, that we've seen for Atletico Madrid, and it works to frustrate Barca a lot of the time.
00:21:08
Speaker
I just... I don't love Otamendi as a third center back. like And I don't necessarily feel like... either of the fullbacks for Argentina are playing poorly in the back four.
00:21:20
Speaker
they've they've They've done well, like honestly. the The real issue here is the midfield. And I think you need as many bodies as you can to go toe-to-toe with Spain in the midfield.
00:21:32
Speaker
Basically, france France, France, as good as they are, show that if you don't match Spain in the midfield... you're You're dead in the water. You've got to gotta to get the bodies from somewhere else. and so i wouldn't I wouldn't do five necessarily ah that way. Look, it could work for a half. That's the one thing. ah You could try it and try to get 45 minutes and then change it.
00:21:53
Speaker
But then you're just you're kind of tossing out a half of like things you could do the other way. And I think what's interesting about the midfield question is, does somebody like Ezekiel Palacios, who hasn't seen very minutes but minutes for Argentina, but is a much leggier, runnier player where you're asking guys, like you said, to do the running job of two people here. Is that another consideration that maybe Argentina? I don't think they will. I think the most likely scenario here is the exact same 11 that we saw against England starts
Projected Lineups and Key Players: Tactical Roles Explored
00:22:25
Speaker
this game. Simeone on the right to run. McAllister, Fernandez, Paredes in the midfield. Alvarez, Messi up top.
00:22:31
Speaker
Tagliafico, Molina at the fullbacks. Maybe you think about something like Nico Gonzalez left back, but I don't think you want to start with that in the game because I think A 45 minute stalemate is probably an Argentina's favorite.
00:22:45
Speaker
I agree with you completely. It's been okay. And so obviously the the thing you always think about with Spain is who how do you hold up against Lamine Jamal? And like, you know, I think Tagliafico is okay, right? Like, is he, is he's not gonna, he's not gonna win. He's not, he's a worse player, but um I don't think you're like, I think he's better than Luka Dean, honestly. Is that like, I don't know. Like, it's a tight one. Luka Dean is at Everton, but like, I think it might be fine there.
00:23:15
Speaker
I think you're certainly at like, there's going to be multiple guys there. Like you're not leaving Tagliafiko on an island against Yuval repeatedly in this game. You're asking the center backs to come over and cover. You're asking midfielders to come back and cover. You're asking, you know, whoever is kind of floating on the left in that midfield winger role that kind of hasn't really existed in this 11 to come back. And it has to be because that's what the danger is. that McAllister's side or is that Enzo? yeah Right. And and who are you you might need to put Enzo there and say, you've got to be the help guy. And that could be a really important thing for Scaloni in terms of attention to detail on the help.
00:23:49
Speaker
Look, the or go ahead. Yeah, so so the Spanish 11, just quickly, i I think there's a lot less, like there's not going to be very many variations there, right? and The only thing they've really done this tournament is Pedro, Fabian Ruiz in the second midfield spot alongside Rodri. I would expect Fabian Ruiz, he started the last two games, you'd think that that would be his spot again.
00:24:09
Speaker
i don't see any reason why they would take off. Baena, Olmo, Yamal, or Othabo, obviously, and the back four and goal is obviously very set here as well. Yeah, I think you'd do it again. And Poros worked. So I like that a lot.
00:24:25
Speaker
Ruiz has worked. I think you you want Ruiz. I think also you look at the Spanish midfield of Paredes, McAus, or Fernandez. but You're not scared of them hurting Ruiz necessarily. And so the other thing is De La Fuente didn't have to press the Nico Williams button in a real way against France. I do think he might have more...
00:24:46
Speaker
um than we've seen at this point in the tournament, like yeah he's been recovering. He could have a really big game at him. And so if anything, you could get him on at halftime and he could give you 45 plus 30. If you and you're not scared of that, um,
00:25:04
Speaker
do you need, but like, do you want to start with that? I i think you, I think you, Baena has earned it. And I don't mean that like a sentimental way. Like you're still creating all the chances you want. And the other thing about Nico Williams or Spina is Nico Williams doesn't want to track back as much. He can, if you start by Anna, you feel a lot better about by Anna and Cucurea handling,
00:25:26
Speaker
the other winger you've got to think about in this game, which is messy, right? Winger, whatever he is. Yeah. And I think, like you said, it's Baina's running that I think keeps him in the 11 here. And I don't think you want to start the game in your most offensive state. If you're Spain, right?
00:25:41
Speaker
If this gets to 55, 60 and it's still no, no, maybe that's the first change that you make. Maybe that's where you look to get a more technical skilled player on, but Baina's running is, is so crucial to what they want to do here. And his ability to just kind of go up and down without stopping has, it was huge against France. There's no way around it. Right. And and you're not looking for, for net, like you've got 10 other guys that can all play the ball, right? You don't need that guy to come in and play the ball because everybody else kind of can. So I think I agree with you that, that this should probably be the 11 for Spain. And we've talked about it already, but i I think it's worth mentioning him again.
00:26:15
Speaker
It's just a big Roger game. It just is because if he can pocket, Anything Messi and Argentina are trying to do centrally, that's just going to open up so many different things for De La Fuente in Spain.
00:26:27
Speaker
Correct. the You said it perfectly. He's just been destroying that part of the field in both directions. And so that's what worries me about Argentina again in the midfield is even if you get the bodies in there with Simeone and all the guys you name, Paredes, Enzo, McAllister, like...
00:26:51
Speaker
Is there just Rodri and Olmo and Ruiz being too much for you? And the real secret about Spain's midfield three is that Rodri basically does the work of a double pivot and Danny Olmo is basically a second striker.
00:27:06
Speaker
And so like... If Rodri and Ruiz are beating you two on three, Danny Olmo is extremely, extremely dangerous. And he has been. And that holdup play he makes to to Poro is everything. He's a shadow striker. And so that's where I'm as good as Argentina has played and as good as they can play in this game.
00:27:27
Speaker
No one has disrupted Rodri. And so like I don't like despite every bit of Argentine magic and there is magic for them on the ball in this game. How are you disrupting Rodri? Is it is it? And to me, the player that could do something in this game that changes Argentina's X factor level is Enzo like having a great, great midfield game that he's shown in the past.
00:27:51
Speaker
It's a lot to expect. Or you're just kind of sacrificing a little bit of top and Julian Alvarez has to do a lot of defensive work. But why would you want that? Right. And that's, like you said, it's just why that's such a crucial piece for Spain because you just cover so many things and it's just one guy, right? It's like the queen on the chessboard. If you want to continue the tactical chessboard analogy, like just making moves that other pieces just simply cannot make. And the combination of it all makes it makes it so, so interesting. right. So so those are the elevens That's kind of how we expect like this game to go. Let's talk about the benches. Let's talk about X factors. Let's start on the Spanish side. you You already mentioned Nico Williams. I think he's huge there. Pedro for Fabian Ruiz feels like a change that we're going to see from Spain, certainly
The Power of the Bench: Tactical Versatility for Both Teams
00:28:32
Speaker
at some point. And then we're probably looking at Ferran Torres and Mikel Moreno. We didn't talk a lot about Mikel Orthabo.
00:28:39
Speaker
I think he kind of is what he is as the Spanish nine, right? He's going to look to create chances in a non-traditional way for a striker with combination moves, but he's been fairly effective this tournament, but there's other options on the bench as well. Should Spain need it?
00:28:53
Speaker
Right. And the whole thing with Ogre Thawball is the two-man game with Olmo and just dragging the center backs in one direction and then a guy attacks the space. And so that's really effective.
00:29:03
Speaker
Torres is really effective in that. Look, the the thing is, if for some reason, not for some reason, When Argentina, if they're holding out somewhere in the second half, they're having a great game and it feels like Spain are in trouble, right?
00:29:16
Speaker
The Nico Williams button is a problem because then you have the take on on both wings. yeah So we said this about France. They have a gear. They have a gear. Spain, we like they do have this gear, and we've seen in this gear, and it's not like a a hypothetical gear.
00:29:32
Speaker
If you're up one even, then you just you press the button immediately. You get him on immediately, and then you just start attacking both fullbacks, dribbling out them. and Yeah, Molina, yeah, Montiel are good fullbacks. But also, I think if Nico Williams is in this game, that's another mismatch one-on-one for take-ons. yeah Then you're just putting the Argentine backline under a lot of pressure.
00:29:53
Speaker
So maybe you can hold out for 60 when it's just Spaina on the field. But if Spain want to rev this thing up to get both wings attacking and Patri attacking, it's a problem. Also because...
00:30:07
Speaker
Where's the Argentine midfield depth outside of these three, four? It's DePaul who was helpful chasing a game. We didn't have to run. Can you count on DePaul if you are down one?
00:30:20
Speaker
Maybe. But if you're tied like or up one, how are you stopping the Spanish surge? Right. That's not the call you're making. That's not the body you're bringing on. And that's where I think Spain have a lot of depth here. And we haven't even talked about Marina, right? Who came in and changed both of the games against Belgium and against Portugal, because this, like you said, if this is a one goal game, if this is a level game,
00:30:45
Speaker
you feel like Spain have the ability to really pin Argentina in. And contrary to what we've kind of seen Spain previously, right? What did we rag on this Spain team for so long? what What got them knocked out in 2022, in 2018? It was their inability to break down a low block when they just surged everything forward.
00:31:03
Speaker
They've kind of shown an ability to react differently. to that game state or to the thought or threat of that game state. That's where Marino is so big. And so you bring on Marino, you've got Williams on the left, you've got Yamal on the right, you've got Oyer Thaubel or Ferran Torres, you've got Omo, you've got Pedri, Rodri's sweeping everything up behind. Oh, look, it's Cucurea. Oh, look, it's the right back Pedro Porro.
00:31:27
Speaker
you're like, oh no, that's just a lot of ways to get hurt. There's too many guys to stop late in a game. And that's the issue where push comes the shove. Like, how do you imagine the state where Argentina can win this game? Just because it's so hard to imagine any state where Spain need a goal that they can't get one.
00:31:48
Speaker
I almost think, and it kind of goes back to the point that I was making earlier, i think a stalemate isn't the worst case for Argentina. The longer this stays nil-nil, and I know that this is something that we've talked about a lot, we haven't really mentioned on this podcast, the Spanish style of play doesn't really change up one, down one level, right?
00:32:09
Speaker
But as you said, if Spain are chasing a goal, they're going to be at least a bit more aggressive, and that is probably more dangerous for Argentina, right? So I think the longer that they can keep this game level, and look, you're never going to not want to be a goal up because that is inherently always a better way.
00:32:28
Speaker
But if Argentina can keep this game level, i mean, they have been phenomenal late in games. So, so good late in games. In this World Cup alone, 75th minute on in games, they've scored 11 goals. If Argentina can get to that point of the game,
00:32:46
Speaker
level or maybe even down one, i think they feel okay about their chances of making a game of this. Agreed. Even down one, I agree there's something in there because there's two things. Spain...
00:33:01
Speaker
They come at you and you got to still defend, but because they come at you, it's not like there's less opportunity for you the other way. You just have to be opportunistic. And then there is something for as as game state proof as Spain has been, as great as they've been and they keep going, right?
00:33:18
Speaker
Is there some World Cup final like back off the gas? Is there even a look? We so we did that because it was minute 50 through 60 against France. Is there a last 10 minutes where even Luis de la Fuente like does that little bit?
00:33:31
Speaker
We don't even know like what Spain looks like trying to see off a one goal lead. no one has led them in this tournament late in a game, right? Right. And nobody's really even been in that case. And so Spain, they scored their goals late, right? Like they they ran Austria off the pitch. They beat Portugal and Belgium late. And against France, I think it was critical that they got the second goal in the 58th minute, right? And that really conditioned. You feel a lot better about, oh, we'll just play through it when you're two goals up and one oopsie, if you will, only leaves you with a one goal leap.
00:34:05
Speaker
Right. And so... That's the thing is Spain strangle. They strangle. They strangle. And so if 10 minutes it left and they're strangling you, you just save one counterattack. Right. And so is there something where how could Argentina be different from Portugal? To me, that's a really interesting case because Portugal. Yeah.
00:34:28
Speaker
They had a Ronaldo problem, but team wide, like they still got strangled by Spain and were very good ballplayers and defended decently.
00:34:41
Speaker
What could Argentina do differently? And so you just need a way to get dynamic counterattacking. That, to me, is the strength of Argentina this game. And it it doesn't have to be long balls. This is where Messi, can he get the ball 60, in between 40 to 80 yards from goal and figure out a way for Argentina to be dangerous to transition? doesn't have to be all himself, but using all the tools in it is in his disposal.
00:35:09
Speaker
Because that is where Spain is vulnerable on the counter press is they commit a bunch of guys. But if you beat the right guy in the right spot at some point, like you've got to think Koubarsi and Poro and even Laporte could have an issue tracking an Alvarez or or a Lataro. And so also...
00:35:30
Speaker
You save, we said, maybe you start Lottaro, probably not. What if you save Lottaro for minutes 70 through 90 here, and if somehow it's still zero zero you can you can find him when Spain are trying to do the strangle. So we'll see. I think what's hard is that even if it's 0-0, Spain, yeah, rev, but they're careful. like That's why it's a strangle and not a full-on like box of assault. And that's why it's great that they just have Rodri back sweeping everything up, right? It's so much easier when you have basically one guy that's just kind of single-handedly ensuring that you're not going to get caught too far out. So we talked about some of the depth options for Spain. Let's talk about what we can kind of expect from the Argentina bench.
00:36:13
Speaker
I think the Spain bench probably has more quality. I also think it's probably clearer where Spain is going in this game, right? Like I think of the five theoretical Spanish changes, there's probably three or four of them. And yes, it will depend on game state.
00:36:28
Speaker
Like if Spain are up one, you're probably seeing Marcos Llorente come into this game late. But I think if you think about it from that aspect, the Spain changes kind of make themselves, if you will.
00:36:38
Speaker
Right. For Argentina, there's a lot of different options and a lot of different ways that that this could go. So I would fully expect Nicolas Gonzalez is going to be. He has been their outlet on the left side. He's played consistently.
00:36:53
Speaker
The question is, who does he come on for? And that's probably determined by game state, right? So if Argentina are down and chasing, that's probably Gonzalez coming on for Tagliafico and playing a more advanced left back role. Against England, even down one, that was for Paredes, right? And they tried to overload a bit with Tagliafico and Gonzalez on the left. But I think Gonzalez is going to play a role here. You would assume, obviously, Latar Martinez is going to play a role here in this game.
00:37:22
Speaker
The question will be, is it alongside both Messi and Alvarez or is it like for like with Alvarez? And again, that's something that game state is going to determine here. The rest of the changes, right? DePaul, you mentioned him earlier. He's a really interesting guy. If you're up one, I don't think that's the change here.
00:37:39
Speaker
If you're down one, it probably is. Montiel, Molina, right back. That is another change that pretty much makes itself for this team. It's it's a change that Scaloni has used repetitively and will continue to use.
00:37:51
Speaker
Facundo Medina on the left side for Tagliafico. If you're in a winning game state, that's probably a defensive change. And then there's just a lot of kind of interesting guys, right? We didn't see Tiago Amada against England. I think his verticality could be an interesting bit here for Argentina. I already mentioned Ezekiel Palacios. I think his running in the midfield, again, we haven't seen him much this tournament.
00:38:11
Speaker
That's a player that has probably got a role to play here. Gianni Lo Celso, kind of some of the same thing. There's some interesting options for Scoloni and Argentina. You're going to see how ready these guys are for Scaloni because I do think this is the type of game where you have to show some stuff you haven't shown.
00:38:30
Speaker
Two players I'm really circling that you just named are Palacios and Lo Celso. Palacios could be useful if you need a guy in the midfield to help you reset the balance for a guy like McAllister. McAllister has been...
00:38:45
Speaker
weird this tournament. There are moments where you're like, man, he's running so hard. Where is this guy at Liverpool? and there are moments where it's like, that's the guy at Liverpool. He's you're getting run through, but it's more DePaul than him. If, if he's a problem, if he's the weak link in your midfield four, you're,
00:38:58
Speaker
you could You could get something there. And then if for some reason you need a little bit more passing to beat the counter press, a little bit more settle on the ball, right? Maybe Predas is good on the ball, but maybe you just need like someone to tempo with it a little bit, ticket tick the passing a little bit, but you need a little bit more running than DePaul.
00:39:19
Speaker
LaSelso could do that. LaSelso could pass and settle a little bit. So there's something there. There's something there. I don't know, man. Scaloni keeps surprising me with the little things he does where I'm like, I didn't think that would work. i didn't necessarily think of that. And I'm still not sure he's a good manager, but...
00:39:37
Speaker
He finds unexpected contributions. The way that they totally realized what England were showing them and capitalized on it immediately and took advantage of the whole length of the game state to get it was very experienced stuff. And so I just think he'll get to his buttons. and the the The maybe weaknesses for Spain, if you're trying to draw them up, are that De La Fuente...
Weather and Conditions: Impact on the Final
00:40:02
Speaker
doesn't make his subs super early. He generally trusts his guys. Like, could you spring a sub in the 55th minute or the 50th minute? Try to get 10 minutes of surprise. Maybe, maybe that kind of thing.
00:40:15
Speaker
And that's maybe where conditions could play a role here, right? De La Fuente has become accustomed to maybe getting one sort of game state with one sort of fatigue level for his players, if you will. Maybe those fatigue levels get spent a bit earlier in a game that's outdoors. And we'll talk about the conditions a bit more in depth in a minute.
00:40:34
Speaker
But like you said, maybe that's an opportunity to look for... And look, in a World Cup final, anything can matter. Everything can matter, right? It's all about the mini margins and the big margins and the small margins and it all coming together. But like you said, is there something from minute 55 to 67 before the second half hydration break where you say, we are going to change first and we're going to try to get Spain to react. But before they react, can we get something, sneak something and then hold on to it?
00:41:03
Speaker
It's a really interesting proposition. i like what you're thinking there. Right. Argentina in general are going to need to find like little, little things to, to foothold on be a great game for a set piece goal. Then they went to that well before the England game, but like,
00:41:19
Speaker
I think Spain have held up really well defensively on set pieces as a team. And so like, I don't think it's an obvious weakness, but that is something you really could get Kuti Romero or even Lissandro Martinez or even McAllister. Like we said, that was one thing that France had is guy six or seven on the set piece defense. You could find something Or, you know, in a game like this, if it gets reduced to moments, like you would really, really, really, really pay your soul to get a messy free kick.
00:41:48
Speaker
Like you just would. And that's dumb. You do that any game. But at this game specifically, it could it could totally change thing. At some point, it feels like it's too long for Spain to go a whole tournament without ever trailing.
00:42:01
Speaker
Like now. That could be because they're a historically really great team that showed how historically great they are by beating a team everyone thought was historically great. And like, honestly, if you took out the vibes of Argentina, which you can't do, if you took out the vibes Argentina, it seems like Spain should smack them in a way that England couldn't. As much as you thought maybe England was close better, the way Spain play should just run them off the field. Obviously, Argentina don't get run off the field. That's the thing that's hard.
00:42:31
Speaker
But it feels like all the questions we were asking pregame ahead of Argentina, England, they're still there. England just maybe didn't take advantage of them like they could have. And and Spain maybe can. And you want to talk about X factors and things in moments. We haven't talked about the goalkeepers much so far, right?
00:42:47
Speaker
Unai Simone has only conceded one goal, right? You know why Spain haven't trailed in this tournament?
Goalkeeper Duel: Simone vs. Martinez
00:42:51
Speaker
Because they've only given up one goal in this tournament. It's hard to go behind when nobody scores on you. But is there an Unai Simone moment lurking somewhere here? He hasn't looked super convincing, particularly against Belgium, right? There were some some moments of concern, and we said it before the England game.
00:43:07
Speaker
He didn't do a whole lot in the England game, but Debo Martinez is a big game goalkeeper. World Cup final, big of a game as it gets. Right. he he's got to be big today. Spain are going to test him on shots from distance.
00:43:23
Speaker
They're going to test him on some close range shots that are going to have to be really reactive. You know, maybe he only needs one or two, but he's going to have to steal some XG if you're going to hang around in this game. So that's a big one. And look, I think we we touched it, Laminia Mall, ah in this game.
00:43:40
Speaker
We haven't really dwelled on it. I think you're just penciling in that part of reason why Spain is hard to defend. But truly, like... If it gets bogged down and if it gets into Argentina defending their box, and maybe it's not a full, full, deep bunker, but if you're defending your box, look, it's a World Cup final. You put the ball at Lamine's feet and say, go win me the game. And I know we say that every game and I know he's not his fully best self.
00:44:06
Speaker
But even ah b plus A minus Laminya Mall was enough to destroy Luka Dean, and it was should be enough with help from Poro and Olmo to get some work on Taglifico, or especially a backup left back who are good players. like And even Medina, defensive specialist, should be able to to have some joy there, right?
00:44:27
Speaker
Yeah, and that feels like it could be the X factor because like you say, we haven't seen the A-plus game from Yamal yet this World Cup. And he's hereer there's a to he's he's feeling more confident every game. You can see it on the field. He's feeling more confident every game. If ever there's a time for him to pull that out of his back pocket, that would just help Spain ascend to even another level of difficulty. I mean, we were so close to being the only World Cup preview podcast to not mention the Lionel Messi, Lamin-Yemal photo.
00:44:53
Speaker
But you made me think of it and I had to mention it. So we're right. We're with all the other podcasts. Yeah, it's a great photo. It's iconic. It's a beautiful thing about soccer. It's Lamazia guys. It's football geniuses and that can dribble. And so what's funny in a way, I do think some of this game comes down to dribbling, star dribbling, take ons.
00:45:15
Speaker
Can you shake a guy and dislodge someone that way? Because, you know, the the passing is there. Yeah.
00:45:23
Speaker
Laminia Mall, I think, could win should should win this game, right? If you're just you're coming down to it. Is there any other ways where missing Argentina can steal a goal? Maybe one, shots from distance. We talked about a free kick, but like Enzo has that in his pocket. McAllister has that in his pocket.
00:45:39
Speaker
I think you've got to get up maybe two or to four of those in the first half and see if you can steal an XG that way. Not an XG, an actual goal. Right, yeah. And I think, like... That's kind of Argentina's thing here is you're not going to probably be able to bombard Spain with chances, maybe in a way that you were able to bombard England with chances. And so the chances that you do get, oh, look, it's the World Cup after dark textbook, page one, take your chances. Right. And Argentina have been really good at that. They've been really good at that throughout this entirety of the run.
00:46:09
Speaker
I think that's ah that's a big thing here. Some other things that I think are worth mentioning for the finals. So let's talk about conditions, right? The pitch at MetLife Stadium has not been great. That probably is going to favor Argentina if that continues to be the case.
Fan Support and Psychological Warfare: Argentina's Advantage
00:46:24
Speaker
Weather conditions look to be okay. Not fantastic. Like we said, it's going to be Spain's first outdoor game since the group stage. 82 and sunny, maybe a bit hotter Fahrenheit. looking right around 28, 29 for those of you like me who use centigrade.
00:46:40
Speaker
Got to be sunny. It's going to be hot. It's not going to be as oppressive as we've seen at points of this tournament, but it's going to be a factor. And I think that's going to play a role here. Amit, you know, from looking out your window, I'm sure a lot of our U.S. listeners know from looking out their window, there's some wildfire smoke that has been in the equation this week in the U.S.,
00:46:57
Speaker
To put our meteorologist hats on, it looks as though some rain will blow through the tri-state area on Saturday. That should help that condition, but that's going to be something to watch for. And the heat and humidity hasn't played a huge role at this World Cup in the knockout round. It might here in the final.
00:47:15
Speaker
It might. I think generally it's a tick in Argentina's favor that it could slow the game down and slow Spain down. But also it might just be a Spain maybe aren't as revved up and just go for a slower, more methodical strangle of let's just use the ball to dull anything happening and keep Argentina at bay until we decide to go in pocket. So, yeah, we'll see how the weather goes. I do think there's also a scenario where you maybe sap Spain's legs in a way they haven't. Like, we don't really know. i don't really know. i know it's a factor, but like –
00:47:53
Speaker
Spain also have a day of rest? like Is that a factor? like Generally, the rest advantage numbers in the final like actually end up not mattering that much, but it is an advantage. At some point, Argentina have played so many minutes this tournament. like as How are they the more... you know are Shouldn't they be the more dead team? And like that's what England, I think, also get ah ah you know some flack for is not taking that advantage over 90. I feel like you just...
00:48:20
Speaker
If you exert pressure on Argentina at some point, like those legs shouldn't have anything left and you get to the bottom of the pixie dusk. Like that's the name of the whole game, isn't it? You got to get all the dust out of the way.
00:48:33
Speaker
And there's also a big Madonna Shakira BTS shaped elephant in this room as well, which is for the first time in the World Cup history, there's going to big spectacular halftime show. That means halftime is going to be even longer than normal.
00:48:45
Speaker
And that might have some of that Do we minute estimation? Yes. should be about a half an hour from what they're saying, which is double. Mid-Sunday's been ruined.
00:48:57
Speaker
Conspiracy. I've never... That is the first thing that has made me go, that's going to help Argentina a lot, is those extra 15 minutes. It's going help their legs a lot. Man, that kind of like...
00:49:10
Speaker
Take some of the second half attrition out of it, huh? You might need 120. That's fascinating. 30 minutes of halftime. What sport is this? I don't know. as We're looking like a Super Bowl out here.
00:49:22
Speaker
That's gross. it It's not ideal. i mean, it's not what we're looking for. it's a soer it's It's not what this podcast wants, but it's what we're getting. And look, I think what's weird about this is this has never happened ever anywhere, right? We've never had a halftime longer than 15 minutes. And so it's not like, right, we go to the Super Bowl and you always get that story. Oh, the offensive line coach coached in the Super Bowl four years ago. So he knows exactly what to do with his team and and how to plan for a longer half. to These guys have no idea what to do with it. and They never had this. They've never really had like a lightning delay experience either.
00:49:53
Speaker
I don't know what effect this will have, but I'm like, I know enough about international football and about margins and moments and all those things to tell you that, yeah, it's going to matter. It helps both teams in that, in a sense, if Spain wanted to press more, they could do, they have more energy, but also it buys Argentina more, more legs. So I don't know. I think generally Spain have been the fitter team and they've been running circles around everyone. That's the strength of their team defense and counter press. And so the rest helps them in that sense, but also like Argentina are an old slow team. And that also gives them some padding.
00:50:32
Speaker
I don't know. i don't know. Guys, I just ruined a mitt's day. I mean, he was doing so good today. He was feeling so good. And then I told him he's got sit through a 30 minute halftime show at the World Cup final on Sunday. He didn't like that.
00:50:43
Speaker
I could go play a rec soccer game in that time. A little, ah little, a little five aside. Um, another thing that I think is worth mentioning here is, is atmosphere, right? And we alluded to it a little bit at the end of our Argentina England pod yesterday.
00:50:58
Speaker
um but Argentina have been very well supported throughout the entirety of this world cup. I would expect that to stay the same, but world cup finals are always weird atmospheres because like you said,
00:51:10
Speaker
There's a lot of tickets that go to a lot of places that aren't particularly interested in supporting one side or the other. And I think one thing that Argentina did really well against England, and again, hindsight really helps make it feel like this mattered, Argentina made England feel the weight of the occasion, right? And it kind of alludes back to the Ben here done that, that we've talked about a lot with Argentina in this tournament.
00:51:34
Speaker
They made England feel like this was a big deal, that this was a World Cup semifinal. And a lot of that is the 11 on the pitch. And a lot of that are the thousands of thousands in the stands. So can Argentina get under Spain in that manner? And Spain haven't really shown themselves to be a team to be affected by something like that, right? They did really well at the Euro. They've done well at this World Cup so far.
00:51:56
Speaker
But this could be a different animal. it could be. I, I just kind of go to your point that Spain have shown that they don't really get rattled by these kinds of things. And specifically in a way where you can like truly say England don't have that like winning factor gene in them, like in in a mean, but true kind of way. Like you can't say that about Spain because they just did it at the Euro. And so I don't know. I mean, like,
00:52:25
Speaker
you might be able to cause some head loss in ways we don't quite understand. Spain are pretty hard to rattle, but it's not like you can't rattle those players. I've seen some of them get rattled in other situations. And so the other thing we we say, if it's going to be a hard-fought, scrappy game, there's going to be some crowds, you're trying to make them feel the moment like...
00:52:46
Speaker
got to try to provoke someone into doing something like that. Something we've seen in a few world's cups. So like, I don't know, like if you like what you have to like get Spain angry, they don't really seem to do that. But maybe if they're a little uncomfortable, something happens. I don't, I don't know.
00:53:02
Speaker
Look, if there's something there, Argentina are going to look for it. That's their game plan. Like that's what they're looking for. That's what they're hoping for. um We don't, as of recording, know who's going to be officiating this game. I think that's going to be really interesting to see what decision FIFA makes there.
00:53:15
Speaker
Four years ago, a matchup between a South American team and a European team had a European official in Saban Marchiniak, the pole. I don't know if we're going to get that in this game. I don't know if the ref's coming for UEFA. We were kind of surprised to see a pair of CONCACAF refs get the two semifinals.
00:53:31
Speaker
but Again, in the in a game where every little thing can matter, that's a thing that can matter. Yeah, I would love to know. But ah see, you got to play the ref. Got to play the contact. And i you know Argentina managed the contact really, really well in that game. An underrated thing that can matter in these World Cup finals is the yellow cards when they come and how yeah physical they're allowed to be. i think it helps Argentina have a more physical game. But also, like...
00:53:56
Speaker
Spain get in those challenges really hard as part of the counter press and throw it in. And they also happy to the flop for contact, not necessarily in the way England flop, but in a similar way. And so...
00:54:09
Speaker
there's that little game within a game that that's always mattering and that's another thing for england is that they had both center backs on a yellow card and and didn't really threaten that after they got that and so i do think also like we kind of talk about how do you rattle spain how do you rattle spain one thing we don't say because we just pencil in argentina as this vibes monster is that like at some point at any point like you could get cody romero to lose his head i see it all the time at tottenham and like why hasn't anyone done that yet because there's multiple guys for Argentina that you can say that about and and like I've kind of Enzo, Debu
00:54:41
Speaker
Right. I've kind of tiptoed around at this tournament because again, they haven't done it. so like so bad play They're always on their best behavior for Argentina. But if this Argentina thing ever ends, it probably ends in fireworks. Right. And it probably ends with guys just kind of losing their heads, which we've seen at. point So I think that's something that's also kind of looming here. And then, of course, I think this is probably the best place to kind of end it. It's a World Cup final. It's a tight game. This could go 120 minutes. there's penalties sitting at the end of this potentially as well.
00:55:12
Speaker
Yeah. Who knows?
The Penalty Question: Will It Decide the Final?
00:55:14
Speaker
Who knows? That would just, yeah I mean, I don't even want to predict it. i don't want to, don't want to touch it. Debu's been really good. Unai Simone. i I think he's good. I don't know. I honestly should have more of the penalty stats for him ready in my head, but ah I don't. So we'll see. um Look, there's the other thing is if ah if a penalty kick gets to Messi in regular time, like God, he better score or else that would be that wouldd be catastrophic. i feel like he... What else take it? We had that discussion on a podcast in this tournament.
00:55:43
Speaker
Yeah, I would... probably give it to someone else at this point, being honest with you. but um I'm happy as you said it and not me because I'm pretty sure that's borderline blasphemous for me to say in the country where I'm currently located. Yeah, great.
00:55:58
Speaker
i'll take I'll take that one. Yeah, I mean, you know we've talked for an hour. We could go for another hour. And I still think at the end of the day, think something things happen that just...
00:56:09
Speaker
Defy your your logic. To me, having said that, this reminds me a lot of Argentina-Germany in 2014, or even Spain-Netherlands in 2010.
Reflecting on Journeys: Argentina, Messi, and Team Spirit
00:56:23
Speaker
I think it's a strangle. It's a long, complicated, protracted strangle. And if you have Rodri and you have attention to detail for Messi, it's hard to find...
00:56:33
Speaker
normal ways for Argentina to beat you. And I know what Argentina do isn't normal, but like it's hard to find normal, explainable things that they could do to beat you.
00:56:45
Speaker
And that sets up for a really interesting final, but maybe not in the way that those two games were. And maybe it's a bit more open and maybe there's a bit more. I don't know. I'm just looking forward to sitting down on Sunday and and watching this. I'm not looking forward to spending 30 minutes at halftime, but that's okay. We'll enjoy the game regardless. Are you willing to venture out and make a pick for me?
00:57:05
Speaker
I mean, I'm wrong all the time. So like I'll just tell you, like I think Spain's going to win, but like congrats. i've just I've given the vibiest vibes monsters ever more vibes. like i what What do you make sense of this team? This team is impossible to make sense of.
00:57:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's kind of the the overarching theme here. And I think there's some of it that is like... beating England was kind of the last big thing for them to do, right? That's the bitter rival of of Argentina for for so many reasons historically.
00:57:36
Speaker
Spain, there's not that much bad blood, at least kind of at surface level, right? As I said earlier in the show, this isn't a matchup we've seen a lot at the World Cup. That said, you've gotten this far. You might as well just win the damn thing, right? Like you've done all this work. You've gotten all this way. There's no point in in falling short and not putting in one more effort for all time. And at that point, like it's a World Cup final and and and anything can seemingly happen. And I think the thing and and this is how i I closed the pod four years ago when we previewed Argentina, France. And and I kind of keep coming back to it.
00:58:10
Speaker
I think it's just so fitting, right? I'm fortunate enough to be here in Argentina to kind of live this experience on the ground, to work with Argentines, to be around Argentines, to watch how they experienced this World Cup. And I think it's just so fitting that this is the team that's representing Argentina at this moment in particular. And I think back to to the national anthem before the game against England and the scenes that it was, right? The goosebumps that you get watching it.
00:58:39
Speaker
And the last two lines of the national anthem, it's the exact same thing I said four years ago against the France game, but before the France game. And I'm going to say it again here. I just think it's so fitting for for Argentina. And so, right, the the last two lines that are that are yelled out, that are sung out, that are some combination of sung and yelled out by the players and supporters is, Coronados de Gloria vivamos, oh, juremos con Gloria morir, which basically in English translates to, crowned with glory we will live,
00:59:07
Speaker
or we swear that with glory, we will die. And with this Argentina team, there's going to be glory regardless, right? They've won the world cup. They've knocked out England. They've rewritten somehow messy's final chapter.
00:59:20
Speaker
And regardless of what happens on Sunday, whether they win or whether they lose, you know, admit that they're going to do it by leaving everything out on the pitch and by playing in this glorious manner. And I think that's why this team has captured so many hearts and minds, not just in Argentina, but really worldwide, right? You see the scenes from a place like, like Bangladesh, you see the scenes from, from the U S with the neutrals backing Argentina.
00:59:46
Speaker
And like, I don't know, that is just part of what's drawn me in particular this team so much is that, you know, that on Sunday, they're going to leave it all out on the pitch and it might be enough. And it's been enough for a long time and it might not be enough. But I think it's going to be a performance that that Argentina can be proud of.
01:00:03
Speaker
You didn't pick? You're not allowed to. They're going to leave it all in the field. I mean, I like that. It's true. I don't know, man. This team is so, so, so defying of of logic. And there's something about Messi, too. Like, at the end of the day, this is...
01:00:22
Speaker
Truly, like it ah it's actually it's actually his his last dance. like win Win or lose, right? I know it's there's a game in Argentina in 2030, but like at that point, it would be a bit. like Even if he's there, like this is their last like real Messi could win this World Cup.
01:00:41
Speaker
And there's something there. like I know who the best players on the field are. He's he's not, but... There's something there. And look, he's lost the World Cup final. To me, is that's why i'm like, 2014, I smell a lot of that.
01:00:54
Speaker
But there's like there's a different level about this generation of our team that you've tapped into. it So it's very, very, very intriguing. It's very, very, very compelling. If you are of the coincidences are cool in soccer crowds, which I know there's a lot of people who are it's kind of fitting here, right? Argentina lose three major finals back to backto back to back. 2014 World Cup Final, 2015 Copa America to Chile, 2016 Copa America Centenario to Chile.
01:01:24
Speaker
That 2016 game kind of sparked an existential crisis with Messi and the national team, right? If you'll remember, he's in the balls bowels of the stadium after the game and says, I i just don't think it's going to happen for me. I'm not doing this anymore. I'm done.
01:01:36
Speaker
He eventually obviously comes back and rewrites his ending. You know where that 2016 final took place a bit? MetLife Stadium, New York City. That's where we're going to be for this game.
01:01:48
Speaker
Argentines love to grasp at all of the straws and coincidences. That's another one here. You asked for my pick. I'll give you my pick a bit. My head says that Spain will win this game, just like my head said that England was going to beat Spain. But I'll go against you on this one. Lee Corso moved. Give me that Argentina head baby or whatever it would be. I don't know. I probably should have thought of that bit before I was live recording the podcast, but I'll take Argentina. I'll take it one, one on penalties because that's the way that you win a world cup final with all of the glory.
01:02:17
Speaker
Amit and I will be back world cup after dark Sunday post game. And there will be so much more from us after the tournament. We'll have plenty of post-tournament content on a lot of teams, not just the finalists or the winners. But be sure to look for our recap stuff on Sunday. You can also look for all of our other stuff. If you are just joining this show, you're like 45 episodes late, but you've come at a right time and you want our semifinal recaps. Those are are on the feed on on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your stuff. And if you're just joining us or if you've been here a long time and you want to be able to support us a bit more, you can do that at patreon.com slash WCAD. All right, Amit, enjoy the final on Sunday. I know that you are excited for it. I am excited for it.
01:03:03
Speaker
Just get you buzzing. It's a big World Cup final. It's everything you could want. I mean, you just stove juice thinking about it or even a few days away. And man, now that you, now that you picked Argentina, Oh, we're going to be at it. No, if Argentina win, i will, I will be delayed my own way. Like I truly don't like I, I had, I was a little upset at England. I think I was mad at Thomas Tuchel. If Argentina win, I will just put my hands up and say, I don't like I'm,
01:03:28
Speaker
seeing the greatest thing ever. So the idea that no matter what happens, even if you root for these teams, that greatness is on the line. I mean, that gets you going, right? That gets you going. It's going be awesome.
01:03:39
Speaker
We love the World Cup. It is the final of the World Cup. You know that we will love this as well. All right, that's it from Amit and I on today's show. As we said, we'll be back on Sunday with our post game.
01:03:50
Speaker
Enjoy France, England on Saturday, guys. Third place. Everybody definitely wants to be there. Make sure you tune in for that one ahead of the big final on Sunday. That's it for us today. As always, enjoy the games and we will talk to you guys soon.