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00:00:01
Chetan Singh
72 Plays7 months ago
We talk about Chetan's journey around the world as an investment banker.
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Transcript
Introduction of Chaitan Singh
00:00:01
joewaltman
All right, today we've got Chaitan Singh. Chaitan, thank you so much for making the time.
00:00:04
Chetan
Thank you for having me on, Joe. ah My pleasure.
00:00:08
joewaltman
All right, first question,
Early Career in Investment Banking
00:00:10
joewaltman
refresh your memory. What were you doing before you started in Seattle and what have we you been up to for the last 20 years?
00:00:15
Chetan
Yeah, so um so let's start with before NCI. So I was based in London. I was in investment banking. I was an analyst in that city group. um But that was sort of also so not a straightforward journey. So I grew up in in India, in in Delhi. I came to Europe in 97, I think, and then lived in four different countries. So worked in Switzerland, finished my studies in Italy, worked in Netherlands, and then moved to the UK in early 2000.
00:00:44
Chetan
and
00:00:45
joewaltman
and and now You went to Europe just to study or did you did your family move to Europe?
00:00:48
Chetan
No, it was just me. um Family sort of was back in India, still is in India. It's a wider family, obviously. Met my wife in London. ah But um it's um it was it was a very interesting experience. I came on a traineeship, an internship.
Education and Career Development
00:01:04
Chetan
um you know to to work at Citibank in Switzerland, and um which was supposed to be six months. It became 18 months. I decided then to finish my education in Europe. So I went to Bocconi University in Milan, finished my economics degree. you know When I was doing that, I did another internship in Amsterdam.
00:01:27
Chetan
I did an exchange semester in Rotterdam and you know got a permanent job in London. So there you go.
00:01:36
joewaltman
Cool.
00:01:38
Chetan
And then, so INSEAD was fantastic because I did that um with the full knowledge of going back to a job. So Siri sponsored my MBA, ah which yeah which was interesting because um you know we had that dot .com boom in the early 2000s and then with 9-11 and the dot-com crashed, you know we had a period of recession in O2, O3, that time period as ah the world sort of reset. And investment banks were actively laying people off, but they did offer you know some of us the opportunity to take a year off and do a master's in finance at London Business School.
00:02:23
Chetan
um But I had already applied to and gotten into INSEAD. So and I remember that conversation distinctly. I went to HR and said, look, you know I'd rather go to INSEAD. I said, well, we'll give you the same sort of ah you know package. So you know we'll pay for you when you come back sort of after a year. So in in fact, I really enjoyed my time at INSEAD because you know I always said to to to folks that there are that three distinct things. You can easily either spend sort of a lot of time in the classroom and study at INSEAD.
00:02:51
Chetan
you can obviously socialize um with with a whole bunch of people. And third is look for a job.
Challenges in Investment Banking
00:02:57
Chetan
So if you take one of those sort of ah those those sort of aspects away, um you know actually your time can be a lot of fun. So I didn't have to look for a job. So I spent a lot of time you know with people and in the classroom.
00:03:13
joewaltman
You were one of the smug bastards that knew they had something waiting for them.
00:03:14
Chetan
and
00:03:16
joewaltman
Were you were you at all tempted to sort of ah sniff around a little and see what it might else be out there or might else might be out there or or did you just stick to your guns?
00:03:22
Chetan
Yeah.
00:03:25
Chetan
Yeah, I largely stuck to my guns. I was cheeky and and did one or two interviews with a couple of private equity firms just to see how it is. I didn't want to do consulting. I wanted to stick in banking and finance.
00:03:38
Chetan
um But I explored private equity, but I sort of in the end, you know, I was i'm quite grateful that Citi gave me this opportunity. So very glad, was very glad to go back. It was the same team. So I was, I was a financial institutions investment banker. So doing mergers and acquisitions advisory in the financial services sector. And I went back to that same team.
00:04:00
joewaltman
Okay, I want to hear more about what you were doing specifically in that in that role, but um' I've got a question. i i ah It's kind of a dumb question, but I'm sometimes surprised by how people like you answer this question, so I want to ask it.
00:04:14
Chetan
good
00:04:15
joewaltman
um What the hell is investment banking?
00:04:17
joewaltman
What do investment makers do?
00:04:18
Chetan
Yeah, it's it's actually a great question because it's ah there's there's so much to being an investment banker. So the way I would simplify it is there are two types of bankers.
00:04:32
Chetan
One is, I want to say a classic sort of markets person. So you're either a trader, a salesperson, or an equity research, and you're doing everything to do with financial markets on a daily basis. You're actively trading positions, be it fixed income, equities, derivatives, or supporting the trader, you know, in a sales function or or doing research, sort of all of that. and So we call them public ciders, effectively.
00:05:00
joewaltman
and and And those that would consist of both by side and cell side is is what you're referring to there Okay, okay
00:05:04
Chetan
Largely said investment bank is largely sell side by side would be hedge funds or institutional. We are sort of who who would have sort of the principle. um And then the private ciders is basically your mergers and acquisitions, advisory bankers, equity, capital markets, debt, capital markets. you know You're raising ah money for clients, you're advising on big M and&A deals, and so on and so forth. so so So this group would be working quite closely with corporate clients, institutional clients, um you know and you know helping
00:05:38
Chetan
companies go public, you know, or pursue um transformational sort of acquisitions or combinations. So I was a private cider. So I was working very closely with clients in the financial and services space to banks, insurers, asset managers, exchanges, fintech companies, and advising them on mergers and acquisitions, or sort of raising equity capital for them, or sort of raising debt capital for them.
00:06:09
joewaltman
Okay, so I've heard that kind of answer before and my response to that is so it sounds kind of like a consultant But you're just doing you know, M and&A and money-raising stuff Okay
00:06:16
Chetan
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, look it's, it's highly strategic. So it's, it's, it's a strategic sort of role exactly like, you know, a management consultant and McKinsey would sort of there. So we would partner with them quite often. and The big difference is an investment banker, you know, has to put a value, uh, you know, the math comes in.
00:06:35
Chetan
and you're ultimately deciding what's the value of a company, whether it's advising that company in a combination, selling a business, buying a business, or raising capital for that business. So, you know, valuing a business becomes a very core element of that.
00:06:51
joewaltman
Gotcha.
Career Transition to Singapore
00:06:52
joewaltman
Thank you. Thanks for indulging my my ignorance.
00:06:54
Chetan
Sorry. So after INSEAD, I would say I've had sort of four phases um to my career. um So I'll try and keep it sort of as concise as I can, but it's quite interesting as I talk through each of those four phases. The first one was returning to city in London, financial services, investment banker, um you know, working through sort of the ranks, associate vice president, sort of director and so on and so forth.
00:07:23
Chetan
But a very interesting thing happened, as you'll recall, in sort of 07, 08, 09 period, which was the global financial crisis. And by virtue of being a financial services banker, um you know, studying balance sheets um and income statements of of banks, insurance companies, I was literally in the thick think of it. So Lehman went bankrupt. um There were several other clients that were under pressure. I remember,
00:07:51
Chetan
going out to Taiwan to sell a business, a subsidiary for one of my clients in Europe. which on a market-to-market basis was worth negative 10 billion and we sold it for you know positive 500 million because accounting rules were very different sort of locally and in in Asia and that was a huge celebration I flew back I was ready to go to Oktoberfest to celebrate with friends and I land in London and I had like 10 missed calls return return my managing director's call I said well you know glad you've landed ah don't go home just take the next flight you can to Brussels because we've got to advise one of our other large
00:08:35
Chetan
European clients at that time BNP Paribas because we've been called in to rescue Fortisbank and if we don't have a deal by Sunday night you know Fortisbank may have to file for bankruptcy on Monday and that means the entire Belgian economy might be under stress so it was yeah
00:08:53
joewaltman
but let' let's Let's go back, actually, i'm I'm curious now. Let's go back to this this previous transaction, the one where you you sold it for $10.5 billion dollars more than you felt it was worth.
00:09:01
Chetan
yeah
00:09:02
joewaltman
ah The community can't be that big of people like you. like What happens when you do something like that? The people you're selling to at some point figure out that you sort of hoodwinked them.
00:09:10
Chetan
Yeah.
00:09:12
joewaltman
but what what what ah what What does that do to long-term relationships and reputations and things like that?
00:09:17
Chetan
Yeah, look, um you're absolutely right. I think um you know the principles will, at the end of the day, understand sort of the difference, the dynamics. Obviously, we heavily, heavily guarded that negative 10 billion number. And you know it was largely off the back of, imagine you're a life insurance company.
00:09:40
Chetan
you've written lifetime policies, 40 or 50 year duration, and you want to pay your customers minimum 6% return. And interest rates that used to be eight, nine, 10% suddenly are now zero.
00:09:56
Chetan
right So NPV, sort of that, you're sitting at a, in this case, negative $10 billion hole. But you know what what what what some of the local companies did and the regulator did was did not force them per local regime to mark to market a balance sheet. um Continued to do this this cost accounting basis as opposed to mark to market accounting. So they're still sort of surviving and evolving, but I can bet you today you can't sell that business anymore because yeah the world has caught up.
00:09:57
joewaltman
thanks Okay.
00:10:33
joewaltman
yeah all right karen so you're You're in Belgium and you're ah you're you're saving the European Union.
00:10:37
Chetan
Well, not the European Union, but a pretty important part of the European infrastructure for this bank.
00:10:40
joewaltman
a
00:10:43
Chetan
And, you know, we had all kinds of people sort of, you know, gathering in in and Brussels. And, you know, you can do only so much sort of in that. But we had a successful deal, you know, close to, I think, midnight Sunday.
00:10:57
Chetan
um and Monday morning, you know, there was a press release that BNP Pariva is going to buy for his bank and, you know, inject X billion euros of capital into the bank.
00:11:08
Chetan
And, you know, the world will be normal again in Belgium because literally queues were beginning to develop.
00:11:14
Chetan
out
00:11:15
Chetan
yeah
00:11:15
joewaltman
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:16
joewaltman
Well, this sounds like the cliche bank, the weekend bank saving thing where, you know, Friday evening to Sunday evening, you're working furiously to find find a buyer and you know,
00:11:22
Chetan
yeah
00:11:25
Chetan
You know, people had what were were losing losing their faith in the global financial system.
00:11:30
joewaltman
yeah
00:11:31
Chetan
And, you know, ah we we all look back at Fed's decision, you know, um that pretty much saved Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. You know, they were next in line to go under Citigroup as well, right?
00:11:42
Chetan
Because, you know, if they hadn't launched that bazooka and the tarp, you know, forced everyone, every bank, whether good or bad, to take that liquidity from from the government.
00:11:52
Chetan
And, you know, we had similar versions of it in Europe. you know the the this This was not a a crisis of you know bankruptcy or capital. This was a crisis of confidence and liquidity was getting pulled left, right and center. And when the world is so global and intertwined and everyone starts withdrawing liquidity from their counterpart, you know the the whole system collapses.
00:12:20
joewaltman
Yes.
00:12:21
Chetan
So that was a fascinating period, first phase of my career after INSEAD.
Role at Aviva and Team Management
00:12:27
Chetan
And then you know this was a what ah followed after the global financial crisis was a very long recession, particularly in the Western world. So I had the opportunity, luckily, to go to Asia um and you know build a business. um in Southeast Asia.
00:12:45
Chetan
So it was based in Singapore covering the six Southeast Asian geographies in India and moved jobs from Citigroup to J.P. Morgan. So I joined J.P. Morgan in 2010. We moved out to Singapore, you know, started a family.
00:13:00
Chetan
So we had a couple of kids. It was great to be in Singapore because you get a lot of support in Singapore. The weather was great. You know, you have it's a very safe environment.
00:13:11
Chetan
So ah
00:13:12
joewaltman
a a classmate of ours, who Shelburne actually is Greg Mittman.
00:13:16
joewaltman
He brags, you know, across his three kids, he changed five diapers ah for similar reasons.
00:13:20
Chetan
yeah
00:13:23
Chetan
Indeed, indeed. ah It was very easy to to bring up kids, little ones said and in Singapore. the whole or The whole system sort of set up to to support you.
00:13:35
joewaltman
Yes. Yeah.
00:13:35
Chetan
It was incredibly safe and we were all in like nice condominiums with swimming pools below and so on and so forth.
00:13:36
joewaltman
Yeah.
00:13:40
Chetan
So, what's not to like about that? So did that for six years. So I was at JP Morgan um flying all over Southeast Asia and India. And it was a very interesting period because Asia was booming. You know, there was there was capital being created in China and companies going public. Japanese companies were looking to invest. India was growing. Southeast Asia was growing. So and I was sort of at JP Morgan. I got promoted to managing director in 2013. I was building a business.
00:14:12
Chetan
engaging with CEOs, CFOs, and they quite valued the fact that I'd come from London and therefore had 10 years of experience in a very sophisticated international financial market.
00:14:25
Chetan
you know' You didn't have much of that sort of in Asia, that experience. So, you know, originating business and advising on deals with was was straightforward and and quite exciting.
00:14:30
joewaltman
Yeah.
00:14:38
joewaltman
Yeah, yeah you you you had you were sort of a secret weapon, right? Indian National with that that much experience, you know, in ins that's cool.
00:14:45
Chetan
Yeah, so so we did we did that and I thoroughly enjoyed my time, but you know the kids were now growing up, so you know we had to think about where we really wanted to be in the long run and where should they go to school and so on and so forth. Then we decided, look, you know we we really considered London home, so we wanted to move back to the UK.
00:15:06
Chetan
and i My wife and I were sort of talking about that, but then um I had a very interesting opportunity. I had advised Aviva, which was one of my clients at JP Morgan on selling a business in Malaysia. So I got along quite well with with senior management over there.
00:15:23
Chetan
And the chief executive asked if I wanted to, you know, do an in-house role, sort of as, as sort of become the client, so to speak. um And that was quite interesting, exciting because Aviva had to go through a lot of transformation. You know, they were in 25 different sort of geographies with subscale businesses, underperforming businesses that they had to sort of either invest in or get rid of.
00:15:52
Chetan
And there's a massive sort of task at hand and the management had been refreshed and so on and so forth. So I decided to sort of do that. So I moved back to London in 2016 and joined Aviva as head of strategy, M and&A and investor relations based in London. And, you know, over the following five years sold over 20 businesses as now principal, as as as the client, um you know, for for Aviva and that was a fantastic experience.
00:16:25
Chetan
Big sleepy but rugged organization but you know I was continuing to do mergers and acquisitions effectively you know for a financial services in the financial services industry so there was continuity in my career so to speak.
00:16:41
joewaltman
Yeah, yeah with without at the risk of disparaging your former colleagues, what's it like going from being a master of the universe, jet-sitting around the world to you know working for a big bank?
00:16:50
Chetan
Yeah. yeah i would look so Aviva was a big insurer ah act and an asset manager.
00:16:55
joewaltman
Sorry.
00:16:58
Chetan
It's a very, very different experience of being at you know at JP Morgan, bulge bracket bag, you know flying around you know nice, sharp suits and smart people all around here.
00:17:09
Chetan
Right, you know, whether it's it's your HR partners, or operations partners, everyone was sort of, you know, top notch Aviva was very different. ah There were there was a layer of very smart people, um you know, at at the top of the organization, but then as you go sort of deep You know, there were people who sort of been on the in those jobs for 20, 25, 30 years and were very comfortable sort of doing those jobs, but had no ambition to continue to sort of progress progress to the next stage and push harder and and fight for the next role and so on and so forth. So that was that was very interesting to come across.
00:17:48
joewaltman
da and
00:17:50
Chetan
So um look, um it was it was, and Aviva had it sort of on sort of excitement because I worked with two different um chairmans and boards and three different chief executives um and um went through it sort of on period of sort of, you know, moving full executive teams, but we,
00:18:14
Chetan
were were on point and and and we delivered on the transformation sort of project and then that was done in 2021. I went then went to run a business as a sort of division ah head.
00:18:28
Chetan
um
00:18:30
joewaltman
within Aviva.
00:18:30
Chetan
and within Aviva because sort of the M and&A work was done after five years, 20 businesses sold, what do I do next, hey let me go and run a business. So I did that, it was a large business, fascinating business, but my job was very different from ah what I was used to in investment banking which is every day is different and merges and acquisitions transactions and highly strategic and and working with smart people. Now I was running a business and I would say 50% of my job was HR because there were 300 people reporting into me in my structure and dealing with all of the the sort of people considerations and 50% of my job was governance which was reporting up and down the chain as to how the business is performing and so on so forth. I wasn't really in control of anything I had people sort of doing that it was a classic sort of managerial
00:19:23
Chetan
sort of role. And um I must say, whilst I learned a lot at that business, I didn't enjoy it as much as, you know, working on M and&A deals, which had done for 20 years of my life.
Return to JP Morgan and Expertise Expansion
00:19:37
joewaltman
how long did you last doing that stuff i
00:19:39
Chetan
yeah One One year.
00:19:41
joewaltman
one yeah
00:19:43
Chetan
And I said, okay, no, I want to go back doing M and&A deals. So ah luckily, JB Morgan, call back and and ad gave me a lovely role here in London. So I returned to JP Morgan at the beginning beginning of 2022 as head of the financial services investment banking practice in EMEA. So that's sort of Europe, Middle East, and Africa. um And the last two, two and a half years, I've been sort of effectively back in in investment banking. So this is the fourth phase of my my my career.
00:20:18
Chetan
and
00:20:20
joewaltman
That sounds like a big job, like how many people were underneath you at that that at that role?
00:20:24
Chetan
Yeah, which our team size was about 70 people. So 12 managing directors, another sort of 10 or so executive directors, 10 or so VPs, and then analysts associates sort below that.
00:20:28
joewaltman
Uh-huh.
00:20:33
joewaltman
Mm-hmm.
00:20:36
Chetan
yeah and it's It's a large team. It's one of the largest sort of industry groups that are within the investment banking sort of world.
00:20:37
joewaltman
Nice.
00:20:43
joewaltman
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:20:45
Chetan
So right now I'm in gardening leave because I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing at JP Morgan, but I thought I'd go down a much more entrepreneurial path.
00:20:46
joewaltman
And yeah, carry on, sorry.
00:20:56
Chetan
So i I have decided to join an elite ah corporate finance advisory boutique in the UK called Robey Warshop. um And I'm going to be starting that role on 1st of October. I'll be one of the partners over there. There are only four partners, so I'll be the fifth partner. And you know it will be mergers and acquisitions in the financial services space and working with sort of big um European, UK clients and serving their needs.
00:21:29
joewaltman
Are they already in the financial services space or are you kind of opening that up for them?
00:21:33
Chetan
They have done some financial services um work, but you know the idea of getting someone like me on board is to really embrace it and then develop a whole sort of practice sort of around um the financial services sector.
00:21:50
joewaltman
and And when you say elite, or are they only taking the clients and the projects that that you know they wouldn't sully themselves with some of this ah you know more more pedestrian work that you know like Goldman or JP Morgan do?
00:22:02
joewaltman
They they they only take the ah the best projects?
00:22:03
Chetan
Yeah, yeah they they only work for the largest deals and FTSE 100 clients, so they will not go into mid-market M and&A or some of the smaller sort of piece of work that, you know, JP Morgan would do, a Goldman would do, a Bama would do.
00:22:09
joewaltman
Okay.
00:22:18
Chetan
The strength of this boutique, and I came across them, so this is not a blind sort of, you know, move, but Robey Warshaw used to advise the board of Aviva in my first stint at Aviva.
00:22:29
Chetan
so i work with simon roby i've worked with simon rob warshaw george osborne who's the former chancellor of the uk works there as a partner um and they work essentially their strength is deep boardroom access for the largest organizations and they've for example advise microsoft on the acquisition of Activision here in the uk they work with Todd bowley when he wanted to buy a Chelsea football club here in the UK. They worked with London Stock Exchange Group when they bought Refinitiv, which is a 25 billion dollar plus acquisition. um They've defended HSBC on the hostile situation with Ping An. They've defended Direct Line Group. So this's this there's a lot in there, but their specialization is deep boardroom access, you know, chairman chairman level sort of connectivity.
00:23:21
Chetan
um of of of the four existing partners.
00:23:26
joewaltman
I like that term, deep boardroom access. I'm mean i'm going to be copying that. so it so It sounds to me like you ah started out as a business banker, you know rose through the ranks ah there, definitely ah you know was was ah you pretty thin air.
00:23:42
joewaltman
You then went in and and got a quote unquote real job and said, screw this, I want to go back and become a master.
00:23:44
Chetan
yeah
00:23:47
joewaltman
oh I want to return to being a master of the universe.
00:23:48
Chetan
Yeah. Yeah. and And the real job was was very valuable experience, right? Because now when I go and speak to clients, not only do they understand that I've actually been on their side of the table for five, six years, you know going through some of the issues they they go through on a day-to-day basis, but also my network and connectivity in the industry, having been on the industry side is is that much better and deeper than what it would have been if I had just remained an investment banker all my life.
00:24:21
joewaltman
what we call street cred here in the mean streets of of of the United States.
00:24:25
Chetan
Exactly.
00:24:26
joewaltman
i that's that's um That's fascinating.
Community Engagement and Future Plans
00:24:29
joewaltman
Thank you so much for for sharing your story. I'm going to ask you the follow or the the final question we ask everybody. um Is there anything we as the community can do to help you, you know either personally or or professionally, and vice versa?
00:24:35
Chetan
yeah
00:24:42
joewaltman
What are you able to do to to potentially ah help us?
00:24:46
Chetan
Yeah, look, I think the the um power of a community is, is that, you know, our community is just so diverse, right. And we have so many of us um that have had very successful careers, are you know, like you started businesses, sold businesses, others who are on boards, others, you know, who are in senior positions, everywhere.
00:25:12
Chetan
So
00:25:13
joewaltman
I'm giggling because it's not even it not even in the same ah solar system that carry on.
00:25:16
Chetan
um but um and And I think for us to to continue to come together regularly, and by the way, there is there's some chatter on our WhatsApp group that some of you may be planning a mini reunion and in Miami. I think that's a great initiative. we I think the power of our community and bringing people together all the time is is fascinating and and there's so many of us with overlapping careers and and similar interests that can benefit from each other. So very happy to give, very happy to sort of share, very happy to contribute in any way I can.
00:25:55
joewaltman
Did I just hear you say you're you're committing to being at the Miami reunion in in spring of 25?
00:26:00
Chetan
I would love to be there, absolutely.
00:26:03
joewaltman
Uh-huh. That sounds like a yes to me. We'll hold you to it. I'll i'll i'll send you details for your deposit soon.
00:26:09
Chetan
Done.
00:26:10
joewaltman
i Jake, Tom, thank you so, so much. that was ah It was really nice to catch up and and and and and see you again.
00:26:15
Chetan
like No, look, great great to see you, Joe.
00:26:17
joewaltman
Take care.
00:26:18
Chetan
and And I still remember our sailing trip. We were on the same boat. ah And we're happy to repeat that.
00:26:26
joewaltman
Yeah, yeah your ah your your nickname was the Drunken Sailor, if I remember correctly.
00:26:29
Chetan
too i did I did have a beer at 11 AM, which was not a great idea. I remember on the very first day.
00:26:38
joewaltman
That's ah wonderful. this is all This is going on the on the the internet too. this I hope hope your your new colleagues take a listen to to this one.
00:26:45
Chetan
and Take care.
00:26:47
joewaltman
Good to see you.
00:26:48
Chetan
See you.