This week on The Marketing Rules Podcast James is joined by Andy Dunn, Managing Director of TEAM, the UK’s largest network of independently owned recruitment businesses. They dive into something that almost everybody talks about, but very few people genuinely understand: networking and community building.

They discuss what separates networks that create real opportunities from those that simply look good on paper, why giving value first matters, and how to stay visible without becoming just another voice in the noise. Andy also shares what it really takes to build and manage a thriving community, the mistakes people make when trying to grow one, and why face to face connections still matter in an increasingly digital world.

They also get into:

 * Why networking is not about what you can take
 * Building your own “team within a team”
 * Online communities vs face to face relationships
 * Community management lessons at scale
 * Common networking mistakes to avoid
 * The ROI of community and collaboration
 * Why human connection could become even more valuable in an AI driven world

Whether you run a recruitment business, work in talent acquisition, or are trying to build stronger relationships in your market, there are plenty of practical takeaways in this one.



The Marketing Rules Podcast is sponsored by Smart Sifty

⁠⁠⁠smartsifty.com⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.smartsifty.com/]

#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Andy:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyedunne/

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]

Networking Isn’t Dead. You’re Just Doing It Wrong With Andy Dunne

Most people in recruitment think burnout is just part of the job.

Long hours. Constant pressure. Always “on”.

But what if the real problem isn’t workload… it’s how we’re operating?

In this episode of the Marketing Rules Podcast, I’m joined by recruitment leader turned performance coach Michelle Flynn to talk about sleep, stress, burnout, breathwork and why so many recruiters are running at 100mph with no recovery.

This is one of those episodes that will probably make you stop and rethink how you work.

We cover:

 * Why “work-life balance” doesn’t really exist
 * The hidden signs you’re heading towards burnout
 * Why recruiters struggle to switch off
 * How high performers recover properly
 * The importance of sleep and routine
 * Why small changes beat dramatic life overhauls
 * Breathwork, performance and controlling stress
 * The problem with being “busy” all the time
 * Why recruiters are basically office athletes
 * How to improve performance without sacrificing your life

If you work in recruitment, run a business or constantly feel switched on, this episode will probably hit home.

The Recruitment Industry’s Most Overlooked Performance Hack with Michelle Flynn

This episode flips one of the biggest assumptions in recruitment on its head.

We spend so much time defining people by job titles, CVs and neat career paths. But what if that is exactly what is limiting performance, creativity and growth?

In this conversation, I sit down with Daen Fox to unpack why labels in recruitment are becoming less relevant, and what actually drives high performance in today’s market.

We get into the reality of modern recruitment. Why generic processes are creating average results. How curiosity is becoming a real competitive advantage. And why the people who step outside their defined role are often the ones who win.

We also talk about identity beyond work. From building a career in recruitment to performing as a DJ, Daen shares what happens when you stop trying to fit into one lane and start leaning into what makes you different.

This is not a conversation about theory. It is about how people actually operate, perform and grow in a market that is changing fast.

If you are building a team, growing a recruitment business, or just feel like you are being boxed in by your role, this episode will challenge how you think about work.

What you will take away:

 * Why job titles are becoming less useful in modern recruitment
 * How to unlock better performance without rigid role definitions
 * The link between curiosity and commercial success
 * Why most recruitment businesses suppress innovation without realising it
 * How to operate beyond your job title without causing friction
 * What it really takes to stand out in an AI-driven market

This one is about thinking differently, operating differently, and ultimately winning differently.



The Marketing Rules Podcast is sponsored by Smart Sifty

⁠⁠smartsifty.com⁠⁠ [https://www.smartsifty.com/]

#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Daen:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/daenjafox/

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]

Why ‘Head Of’ Means Nothing Anymore with Daen Fox

In this episode of The Marketing Rules Live, the ThinkinCircles team explores how AI is reshaping recruitment marketing from a marketer’s perspective. We discuss the rise of AI-generated written content, the risks of overusing automated imagery, and the growing challenge of protecting brand consistency as consultants publish more frequently than ever.

This session covers:

 * How AI has increased content volume but not necessarily quality
 * The risk of brand dilution when consultants rely too heavily on automation
 * Why tone of voice, positioning and human judgement still matter
 * The importance of AI guardrails, policies and internal guidelines
 * How agencies can balance efficiency with credibility in 2026
 * Why recruiters must read, refine and sense-check AI output before publishing

We also examine the wider implications of AI use, from sustainability concerns to misinformation risks, and why due diligence is now a business-critical responsibility.

AI can accelerate your marketing. It cannot replace your thinking.

If recruitment is a people business, then recruitment marketing must remain human at its core.

Featuring Chris, Kat, Fiona, Richard and Tayla from ThinkinCircles.



The Marketing Rules Podcast is sponsored by Smart Sifty

⁠⁠smartsifty.com⁠⁠ [https://www.smartsifty.com/]

#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]

AI Won’t Build Your Brand, People Will from The ThinkinCircles Team

Most recruitment founders say they want to sell their agency one day.

But the reality is very different.

In this episode of The Marketing Rules Podcast, James Whitelock sits down with Matt Fox, founder of Exodus Advisory, to talk about what actually happens when recruitment businesses try to exit and why so few ever make it to a successful sale.

After more than 25 years in recruitment, building and eventually exiting his own agency, Matt now works with recruitment founders to grow, optimise and prepare their businesses for sale. Unlike traditional brokers who only appear when someone decides to sell, Matt often works with owners years in advance, helping them fix the structural issues that destroy valuation.

In this conversation, we unpack the biggest risks inside recruitment agencies that buyers look for, why owner dependency can kill a deal, and how factors like marketing, brand positioning and candidate experience can significantly increase the appeal and value of a business.

If you run a recruitment agency and think you might exit one day, this episode will change how you think about building your business.

In this episode we discuss:

 * Why fewer than 10% of businesses that want to sell actually do
 * The hidden risks buyers look for when evaluating recruitment agencies
 * Why owner dependency is one of the biggest valuation killers
 * The real role of brand and marketing in making a business more attractive to buyers
 * How candidate experience can actually be monetised
 * Why most recruitment agencies still struggle to differentiate themselves
 * What founders should be doing years before they ever think about selling

Whether you're building to exit, scaling for growth, or simply want to run a stronger recruitment business, this episode is packed with insights from someone who sits on both sides of the table.

The Marketing Rules Podcast is sponsored by Smart Sifty

⁠smartsifty.com⁠ [https://www.smartsifty.com/]

#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Matt:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-fox-50b10311/

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]

The Hidden Risks That Kill Recruitment Agency Sales With Matt Fox

What happens when a recruiter stops relying purely on cold calls and starts building an audience instead?

In this episode of the Marketing Rules Podcast, James Whitelock sits down with Joel Lalgee, widely known as The Realest Recruiter. Joel has built one of the most recognisable personal brands in recruitment, growing a global following across TikTok, LinkedIn and YouTube while continuing to operate as an executive recruiter.

Joel shares the story behind how he went from agency recruiter to content creator, why he committed to posting consistently, and what happened when that visibility started turning into real business opportunities.

The conversation digs into the changing reality of recruitment. Outreach is easier than ever thanks to automation and AI, but getting someone’s attention is harder than ever. Joel explains why personal branding, authenticity and trust are becoming the most valuable assets recruiters can build.

James and Joel also discuss the evolving role of content in recruitment, the mistakes people make when trying to copy influencer-style formats, and why the recruiters who succeed in the next decade will look more like media creators than traditional salespeople.

In this episode they discuss:

 * How Joel accidentally fell into recruitment and built a decade-long career in agency
 * Why personal branding started as an experiment on LinkedIn
 * What happened when Joel committed to posting content every single day
 * Why attention and trust are now the hardest things for recruiters to earn
 * The real impact AI and automation are having on outreach and sales
 * Why the traditional “50 cold calls a day” model is becoming less effective
 * How recruiters can combine marketing, content and relationship building
 * The story behind The Realest Recruiter brand and how it became a business
 * How Joel monetises content through speaking, partnerships and executive search
 * Why authenticity and originality beat copying influencer-style content

What listeners will take away:

 * A clear understanding of why personal branding is becoming essential in recruitment
 * Practical ideas for creating content that actually builds trust and visibility
 * A new perspective on how recruiters can stand out in a crowded, AI-driven market
 * Inspiration to think differently about business development and relationship building
 * Why the future recruiter may look more like a creator than a salesperson.



The Marketing Rules Podcast is sponsored by Smart Sifty

smartsifty.com [https://www.smartsifty.com/]

#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Joel:⁠

⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/joellalgee/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/joellalgee/]

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]



The Truth About Recruitment Content Nobody Talks About With Joel Lalgee

James is joined by Dave Jenkins, CEO and Founder of Wave, who has spent 25 years building recruitment websites and watching them evolve from simple brochure sites to powerful marketing and tech platforms.

We get into the future of the recruitment website, the impact of AI, candidate experience, and why your site should be your hardest-working asset, not just something that sits online looking pretty.

#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Dave:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/davefromwave/

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]



Is Your Recruitment Website Already Obsolete With Dave Jenkins

This week, James was joined by Manan Shah, co-founder and CEO of Recruiterflow.

They get into what recruitment data really matters, why most agencies obsess over the wrong metrics, and how velocity, productivity, and AI are reshaping how recruitment businesses scale.

If you care about building a faster, smarter, more resilient recruitment operation, this one’s for you.



#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Manan:⁠

⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/mananshah212/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mananshah212/]

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]



AI Isn’t Replacing Recruiters. It’s Exposing Who Actually Scales With Manan Shah

In this episode James is joined by Zoe Shackleton, Head of HR and Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at Huddersfield Town Football Club.

Zoe sits on the other side of the table to most of TMRP listeners, she’s the end client recruiters are trying to win over.

They talk candidly about talent attraction in football, what genuinely inclusive hiring looks like in practice, and how strong culture and smart use of technology drive retention in high-pressure environments.

#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Zoe:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-shackleton-fcipd-38167418/

Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]

Why Football Clubs Attract Talent Better Than Most Businesses with Zoe Shackleton 

In this episode, James is joined by Thomas Vose, co-founder of HireAra, to unpack what it really takes to build a recruitment tech business from scratch and successfully exit it.

They discuss the challenges of bootstrapping, angel investment, avoiding the VC trap, and what life is really like after being acquired. 

If you’re building, scaling, or thinking about selling a rec tech business, this one is packed with real lessons from the front line. 



#MarketingRules

#TheVoiceOfRecruitmentMarketing

⁠To connect with Thomas:⁠

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-vose-149788108/



Learn more about James and ThinkinCircles:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thinkincircles.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://thinkincircles.com/]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.themarketingrules.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.themarketingrules.com/]





What No One Tells You About Selling Your Recruitment Tech Company with Thomas Vose

One take. No script and no edits! Your host James Whitelock talks to interesting and influential people about the new Rules of Marketing, Business, Recruitment and Technology.

James Whitelock

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