In this solo episode, attorney Stephen Seckler reflects on the importance of building small, consistent habits—both for professional success and personal wellbeing. Drawing on his own efforts to reduce news and screen time, improve sleep hygiene, and maintain dental health, Stephen underscores how selfcare routines can create calm and clarity in stressful times.

He also highlights how the same principle applies to business development: splashy efforts are no substitute for consistent outreach and visibility. Whether it's connecting with referral sources, posting on LinkedIn, or attending networking events, success comes from showing up regularly.

Tune in to hear why both wellness and marketing are long games—and how you can make progress one habit at a time.

Additional Resources

 * Episode 139-Conquering Perfectionism in the Practice of Law with Jordana Confino [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-139-conquering-perfectionism-in-the-practice-of-law-with-jordana-confino]
 * Episode 140- Naïs Mouret on Emotional Intelligence, Physical Well-being, and the Practice of Law [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-140-nas-mouret-on-emotional-intelligence-physical-wellbeing-and-the-practice-of-law]
 * Episode 135-Tackling Mental Health Issues in the Law with Amy Levine and LCL [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-135-tackling-mental-health-issues-in-the-law-with-amy-levine-and-lcl]

Episode 158-Marketing and Selfcare are Habit Forming

Many lawyers find themselves questioning whether the traditional practice of law is the right long-term fit. In this episode, host Stephen Seckler speaks with Kim Fine and Neil Handwerker, co-founders of ex judicata [https://exjudicata.com/], a platform designed to help lawyers explore and transition to non-legal careers.

Kim Fine brings a wealth of experience as a legal industry executive, including her time as Managing Director at ALM (American Lawyer Media). Neil Handwerker is a former practicing attorney and seasoned legal recruiter who has advised lawyers on career transitions for decades. Together, they launched ex judicata to address a growing need: helping lawyers find more fulfilling career paths outside of traditional legal roles.

In This Episode:

* The origin story of ex judicata and the founders' earlier work with Fulcrum Information Services

* Common reasons lawyers want to transition out of practice: burnout, billable hour pressure, and desire for team-oriented environments

* How ex judicata supports lawyers: diagnostic tools, job boards, interview archives, and online courses

* Popular course offerings like financial fluency and data analytics, tailored to JD career pivots

* Mindset shifts and soft skills lawyers need to develop when leaving the profession

* Guidance on timing your transition, especially when you’re financially dependent on your legal job

* The importance of self-reflection, side projects, and informational interviews in career exploration

* Support for 3Ls affected by the Federal hiring freeze

* What’s next for ex judicata—including a new initiative described as “revolutionary”

Additional Resources:

 * ·       Episode 155: From Lawyering to Legal Tech with Ben Chiriboga [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-155-from-lawyering-to-legal-tech-with-ben-chiriboga]
 * ·       Episode 147-Your Legal Career: If It’s Broke, Fix It or Move On? [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-147-your-legal-career-with-susanne-aronowitz-if-its-broke-fix-it-or-move-on]
 * ·       Episode 142-Winning in Your Own Court with Dena Lefkowitz [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-142-winning-in-your-own-court-with-dena-lefkowitz]
 * ·       Episode 139-Conquering Perfectionism in the Practice of Law with Jordana Confino [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-139-conquering-perfectionism-in-the-practice-of-law-with-jordana-confino]
 * ·       Episode 124-Lauren Rikleen on Social Justice and Defending American Democracy [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-124-lauren-rikleen-on-social-justice-and-defending-american-democracy]
 * ·       Episode 119-From Law Firm Associate to In-House Operations-With Shawn Hoyt [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-119-from-law-firm-associate-to-in-house-operations-with-shawn-hoyt]
 * ·       Episode 114-From Biglaw to In-house to Business Role and Back Again with Carl Berglind [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-114-from-biglaw-to-in-house-to-business-role-and-back-again-with-carl-berglind]

Episode 157-Planning Your Exit From the Law

In this special solo episode of Counsel to Counsel, I take a break from my usual interview format to share something personal: the audio version of Chapter One of my new book, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur, just published by the American Bar Association.

This book is a field guide for lawyers who are skeptical about marketing and allergic to the idea of “sales.” It’s designed to help you shift your mindset, find a more authentic and comfortable approach to business development, and ultimately grow your practice in a way that feels right to you.

I don’t plan to release a full audiobook, but many of you have asked for one—so I’m starting here. If you've ever struggled with the idea of self-promotion or found traditional marketing advice unrelatable, this first chapter is for you.

Tune in to hear how I kick off the book, and let me know what you think!

Topics Covered:

 * Why lawyers often resist marketing and business development
 * How entrepreneurial thinking can help lawyers reframe their approach
 * A preview of what’s to come in the book

Purchasing the book:

📘 Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur – Order from the ABA Bookstore [https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/449547309/] or head to my website [https://www.seckler.com/] to find a discount code.

Episode 156-Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur – Chapter One

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Steve speaks with legal tech executive and former practicing attorney Ben Chiriboga [https://www.linkedin.com/in/benchiriboga/], co-founder of Nexl [https://nexl.cloud/], a legal CRM platform built specifically for law firms. Ben shares how Nexl is transforming how lawyers manage client relationships and streamline business development—and offers a candid look at his own journey from litigator to legal tech entrepreneur.

💡 In This Episode:

 * What is a CRM, and why do lawyers need one?
 * How Nexl helps lawyers stay on top of relationship-building without relying on manual data entry
 * Nexl’s legal-specific features: passive data collection, client intelligence, and built-in project management
 * Why many lawyers resist using CRMs—and how Nexl addresses those objections
 * Ben’s personal transition from litigation to legal tech leadership

Episode 155: From Lawyering to Legal Tech with Ben Chiriboga

In this episode, Steve speaks with the administrative team at the NALP Foundation, a nonprofit research organization focused on the advancement of the legal profession. They explore recent data on associate hiring, attrition, and retention—highlighting what lawyers can learn from these trends to shape more satisfying careers.

💡 Topics Covered:

 * Why lawyers are leaving law firms—and why some are choosing to stay

 * The top factors driving associate retention (hint: it’s not just about money)

 * What the research says about generational differences and shifting career expectations

 * How to use data to be more intentional about your career development

 * Advice for lawyers feeling disengaged or considering alternative paths

🎧 Whether you're early in your legal career or at a crossroads, this episode offers practical insights for anyone looking to navigate a more fulfilling professional path.

Episode 154- The Latest Research from the NALP Foundation and What it Means for Your Career

In this episode, I take another break from interviewing guests to share some quick thoughts on how to use job boards effectively in your job search. While I spend a lot of time encouraging clients to make networking the central focus of their career exploration, job postings still have value—if used strategically. I share practical tips on how to leverage listings for market research, generate new ideas, and customize your applications to stand out.

Episode 153- The Role of Job Boards in Career Exploration

In this episode, Steve Seckler speaks with Jonathan White [https://jordanwhitellc.com/], a Boston-based trusts and estates attorney and a self-described AI enthusiast. Jonathan shares practical insights into how he is using artificial intelligence tools to streamline his law practice and enhance client service. He also reflects on his career transitions—from litigation to insurance defense, to real estate, and finally to trusts and estates—and how his current involvement with Atticus is helping him and other lawyers build more fulfilling and profitable practices.

🎧 Topics Covered:

 * Jonathan’s career path: from civil litigation to trusts and estates
 * What inspired him to embrace AI in his legal practice
 * Practical applications of AI
 * Best practices and cautions for using AI in a legal setting (10-80-10 rule, client disclosure)
 * His involvement with Atticus and his path to becoming a coach

🛠️ AI Tips for Lawyers:

 * Start with one or two tools and go deep
 * Disclose AI usage in your client engagement agreements
 * Verify all AI output—use human judgment to review
 * Use AI as a support, not a replacement

Episode 152: Practical Applications for AI in Your Law Practice with Jonathan White

In this episode, I’m taking a break from interviewing guests to share some exciting news—my new book, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur, is being published by the American Bar Association in late March!

If you’ve ever struggled with marketing yourself or felt uncomfortable with business development, this book is for you. As lawyers, we’re trained to be analytical and risk-averse—great for legal work, but not always helpful when it comes to growing a practice. In the book, I share practical strategies to help you shift your mindset, build relationships, and integrate marketing into your professional life in a way that feels natural.

Tune in to hear about my own journey with business development, why I wrote this book, and how it can help you market yourself without feeling like a salesperson.

To order, click here [https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/449547309/].

Episode 151-Why I Wrote Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur

In this episode, business coach Dominic Grew [https://elevatebusinesscoaching.com/] returns to discuss how solo and small firm lawyers can strategically grow their practices without overextending themselves. Dominic shares practical insights on leveraging time, outsourcing non-billable tasks, and using fractional resources before committing to full-time hires.

Key Topics:

 * When to consider hiring support staff or associates
 * The benefits of fractional hires and outsourcing tasks like bookkeeping and IT
 * Avoiding common mistakes when expanding a law practice
 * How to balance delegation while maintaining quality
 * Real-world scenarios: Hiring a first employee, sharing an associate, and weighing contract help vs. joining a larger firm

Why You Should Listen: If you’ve ever wondered how to scale your law firm while maintaining efficiency and profitability, this episode provides actionable strategies to help you make informed decisions about growth.

Additional Resources:

 * Episode 110: Getting to No – Turning Leads into Business with Dominic Grew [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-110-dominic-grew-on-getting-to-no-turning-leads-into-business-and-other-ways-to-succeed-in-private-practice]

Episode 150-Growing Your Law Firm with Dominic Grew

In this episode, host Stephen Seckler welcomes back Gary Johnson, president of J2 Marketing Consultants [https://j2marketingconsultants.com/], for a dynamic session of role-playing client intakes. They explore how lawyers can turn initial business conversations into productive relationships. Gary, an expert in coaching attorneys on growing their practices, shares practical techniques for understanding client needs, building trust, and addressing objections.

Role-play scenarios include consultations with a restaurant owner expanding his business, a divorcing client navigating complex emotions and custody issues, and parents of a special needs child seeking estate planning advice. Each scenario highlights the importance of active listening, empathy, and providing tailored solutions. Gary also emphasizes the long-term value of relationship-building in legal marketing. This episode is packed with actionable insights for lawyers aiming to enhance their client interactions and business development strategies.

Additional Resources

 * Episode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business-with Gary Johnson [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-74-turning-business-conversations-into-business]
 * Episode 144-Turning Business Contacts into Business: Lessons From the 2024 Election  [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-144-turning-business-contacts-into-business-lessons-from-the-2024-election]
 * Episode 110-Dominic Grew on “Getting to No”-Turning Leads into Business and Other Ways to Succeed in Private Practice [https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/episode-110-dominic-grew-on-getting-to-no-turning-leads-into-business-and-other-ways-to-succeed-in-private-practice]

 

Episode 149—Turning Business Conversations into Business—a Role-Play with Gary Johnson

Counsel to Counsel is a periodic podcast produced by Stephen Seckler of Seckler Attorney Coaching (www.counseltocounsel.com). It addresses important career, marketing, and leadership issues facing attorneys. The target audience is associates, counsel and partners at law firms of all sizes; but the podcast also addresses issues that are relevant to in-house counsel, law students or any lawyer who is looking for career insights inside or outside of the law. Counsel to Counsel is aimed at individual lawyers who are looking to increase their own career satisfaction and build their marketing and leadership skills. The podcast features interviews with leading consultants, career professionals and marketing experts who advise attorneys on careers, marketing, law firm management and related issues. The guests are also a roster of successful attorneys who have found career satisfaction inside and outside the law. Counsel to Counsel is a direct outgrowth of the blog Counsel to Counsel which Stephen Seckler has been publishing since 2005. Since graduating from law school in the late 1980s, Stephen Seckler has been advising lawyers on career and marketing issues and working with a broad mix of law firms and corporate law departments. He began blogging when legal blogging was in its infancy and his blog Counsel to Counsel was named to the ABA Journal’s Blawg 100 in 2007 and 2008 (the first two years that list was in existence). Steve has written extensively on career and marketing issues and he has spoken at many law school, law firm and bar association events. He served on the Boston Bar Association’s Standing Committee on Work Life Balance and was Vice Chair of the Law Practice Management Section of the Massachusetts Bar Association. He is active in the Senior Lawyers Division of the American Bar Association, the ProVisors business network, and has been quoted frequently in the legal and business press.

Stephen Seckler

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