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The Importance of Collaboration for Logistics Service Providers with Christian van Eeden
202 Plays3 years ago
In this episode, Christian van Eeden, VP of Transformation Architecture at Hellmann Worldwide Logistics, joins Host Brian Glick, CEO of Chain.io, to discuss:
- The importance of collaboration in the supply chain industry
- Empowering growth and stability through tech
- Maintaining efficient operations in a distributed environment
- Change management in the logistics industry
- What forwarders should be investing in right now
Christian has worked in the supply chain industry for 20 years and is focused on creating fully digital offerings for customers and moving the existing freight processes towards a more collaborative environment through technology.
Follow Christian: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-van-eeden/
Follow Brian: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briansglick/
Chain.io Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/chain.io
Chain.io Twitter: https://twitter.com/chain_io
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Transcript
Challenges in International Logistics
00:00:04
Speaker
I do think what came out of, especially out of COVID and the pandemic and the lockdown was that collaboration aspect. I really feel like we are still not collaborating as much as we should be.
00:00:18
Speaker
I lean more into the international business so the air freight and sea freight kind of side of things and really there I still see where we have an international shipment and you know origins are not talking to each other and destination is kind of trying to screw over the guy on the other side and hiding money and all these kind of things and the collaboration I feel like that's holding us back so much.
Introduction to Christian Van Eden
00:00:45
Speaker
Welcome to Supply Chain Connections. I'm Brian Glick, CEO and founder of Chain.io. On this episode, we have the honor of talking to Christian Van Eden of Hellman Worldwide Logistics, one of the largest freight forwarders in the world. Christian has some incredible insights through his journey, through the industry on how we bring this all together and make technology and operations actually work together. So without further ado, let's get to the episode.
00:01:16
Speaker
Hey, Christian. Thanks so much for being on the show.
Christian's Entry into Logistics
00:01:19
Speaker
Thanks for having me, Ryan. So why don't we start with a little bit of introduction of yourself, maybe how you got into the industry and kind of what your journey's been. Thanks. Yeah. Hi, everyone. Christian Van Eden. I work for Hellman Worldwide Logistics as the VP for Transformation Architecture based in beautiful British Columbia on the west coast of Canada. And I spent the last kind of 20 years now in logistics.
00:01:44
Speaker
And then the log tech industry came from the software side, so doing web application development and so forth, and was hired early on by DB Schenker as a logistics company to write them some software and kind of got sucked into the industry from there. I had the privilege of working for like their large branch here in Vancouver at the time and got exposed to all manners of logistics all the way from ocean freight and air freight and warehousing and
00:02:11
Speaker
customs brokerage, and trying to help people who are struggling with their Excel sheets to make them a little bit more efficient using some technology. But it's been struggling ever since. So it sounds like you and I both are some of the few people who sort of fell into this industry as opposed to being born into it. So what got you hooked?
Complex Challenges and Opportunities
00:02:33
Speaker
What made you say I'm going to start identifying with this industry and not just with computers?
00:02:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think that the problems were interesting, right? I think by nature always, you know, being that IT tech kid, right? Helping people out, you know, with their computers and all these kinds of things. And when you came into this kind of industry, I mean, there was a lot of basic things that you could help with, right? It's just optimizing. So like we struggled today and supporting people to do more with less.
00:03:01
Speaker
And the problems were, at least in where they had the opportunity, was of an international scale. So you come out of university, you get your fresh face, and you're wondering to solve the world's problems with all these kind of higher morals that you learn there sometimes. And you see the struggles of everyday people trying to communicate, trying to share information, trying to just get their jobs done. And for me, there was always another problem to be solved.
00:03:31
Speaker
Really and that kinda got me hooked and i must say on the other side of the coin there was also a willingness to invest me logistics companies in general have done okay it's been a core part of our no.
00:03:44
Speaker
society, right? Moving goods has been around forever. And there was always money to invest. I worked for a couple other companies sort of like during my school days and those kinds of things. And money was always an issue, right? You wanted to do big things, but the companies couldn't invest in that. And logistics has always been a growing industry where the willingness to invest and make things better has been kind of part of the DNA of most companies. And I've really enjoyed that investment.
Debate on Logistics Technology Progress
00:04:10
Speaker
So that's interesting that you say that because
00:04:14
Speaker
If I think back to 2018, 2019, kind of going into the pandemic, there was this, you know, kind of attitude of we need all of these startups and all of these tech companies because everything's so backwards. And, you know, like nobody has made any progress. And I've always kind of, I know there's a lot of people inside the industry who bristled against that characterization. So it's kind of fun here. You say that you stayed because of investment, because of this kind of moving forward.
00:04:44
Speaker
kind of what's your thoughts on, you know, do we make progress? Are we, you know, how do we do as a group? I think as I kind of moved up in these companies, right, and had a larger scale view to that, it's always that in any big company like Balancing Act, right, you could do, I think it was people see it from different perspectives on a small scale when
00:05:04
Speaker
you were dealing at a branch or a country or even at regional level you were given enough flexibility to kind of find your own way and find solutions because by the nature of our industry every country is slightly different right different customs different transport modes etc and everybody has to kind of do that.
00:05:22
Speaker
But on a global scale i do agree with the statement in twenty eighteen people became with margins becoming thinner and thinner in this fear of commoditization it was definitely added no when i went in and talk to you know the ceo is in the head of products of no hundreds of people they feared putting more money into it because they're like no listen where are margins are so thin we really have to squeeze everything out of it right.
00:05:48
Speaker
So i could see the help some people saw it one way or the other way but for me i would say it has been generally if you could come up with a good solution that people were willing to invest in that and kind of make inroads. So what do you think some of the big challenges are where should the next set of investments be kind of what's on your radar has the big challenges that we should be attacking.
Future Investment in Collaboration
00:06:13
Speaker
At one, you know, you would love to be more kind of more future facing, right? We're really coming in. I do think what came out of, especially out of COVID and the pandemic and the lockdown was that collaboration aspect. I really feel like we are still not collaborating as much as we should be. I lean more into the international business, so the air freight and sea freight kind of side of things.
00:06:38
Speaker
and really there i still see where we have an international shipment and no orders are not talking to each other and destination is kind of trying to screw over the guy on the other side and hiding money and all these kind of things. And the collaboration i feel like that's holding us back so much. We try again and again to put that into our products right i know you're from china outside you know that was one of your announcements lately is how can we collaborate better in the platform.
00:07:08
Speaker
And that's still where i think people have a lot of fear within our industry and if we can get better at that and really make some of those communications and stuff a bit straight more straightforward and trusting we can really change a lot i think in our industry. How much of that do you think is a lack of tools and how much do you think is really just either culture or when i get a little edgy here with you know i personally think a lot of it comes down to the way that we compensate people.
Barriers to Collaboration
00:07:38
Speaker
And that if your bonuses are local, your thinking's local. But how much do you think, do we lack the tools to collaborate or do we lack the ability to implement the tools to collaborate?
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's cultural. And I would like to think that also that the next generation of kids coming up like through the industry is going to change that a little bit, right? It's more globalization, more, you know, you knowing what's going on on the other side of the world, being sort of sensitive to what's going happening on the other side of the world as well. So those kind of societal changes, I think are driving some of this, the tools of
00:08:13
Speaker
I think in the last ten fifteen years of always been there right like you know all the way back to the days of you know ms and messenger and using skype to call your parents on the other side of the world right. These things have been around there obviously more embedded now right i think that collaboration the office suites the google suites and software now.
00:08:35
Speaker
bringing that together in such a collaborative and easy to use fashion those are really breaking down the barriers and not only within the companies right so i work for how many is about ten thousand people. Right not even within a big organizations but that organization to the outside world right we're creating groups and shared spaces to collaborate between customers and us and ourselves and providers and etc etc and.
00:09:02
Speaker
Those collaborative spaces have really opened up the ability to kind of, I don't have to make a phone call. I don't have to wait for an email. I just send them a quick message and off they go. And even on your phones, right? You have your personal WhatsApp list of people that you talk to, right? And that use that a lot of times more than, you know, trying to send somebody an email if you need a quick response. That's how I get ahold of you when I need you. So yes, I agree.
00:09:28
Speaker
I agree entirely. There's the shadow networks that exist outside of these tools.
Transforming Logistics Networks
00:09:34
Speaker
So let's talk about Helmin a little bit and why don't you just play what your role is because I don't think it's a role that necessarily exists in every company.
00:09:42
Speaker
Yeah, I came up with an illustration this week and maybe I shared here to see how well it resonates. I see Hellman and a lot of, you know, other kind of medium sized forwarders that I've interacted with, you know, as a set of kind of like a neighborhood, each have like these different houses that are
00:09:58
Speaker
Set up you know and they function well as a house and then the neighborhood there loosely couple together right and that's kind of how the company is set up but what we are really my role as a phone transformation perspective is taking that and really turning it into a city.
00:10:16
Speaker
right and the cities has by nature a much different architectural structure right you have common pipes and electricity and commodities that run through a city you are using
00:10:31
Speaker
scale in order to optimize your flow between for whether it's traffic or people or you know goods that are flowing through that city so. That structure that you need to put in place to be able to operate on scale and you see the successful forwarders you know the canes and the shankers of the world where they've been able to leverage these scales of economy to try and kind of get bigger and be able to operate all of their shipments and goods in an efficient manner.
00:10:59
Speaker
So that's my role to try and bring a little bit of that into this smaller forwarder kind of life. So you're the mayor. I didn't say I was the mayor. The city planner. Ah, there we go. There we go. I got engineering in the title there somewhere, right? So kind of in that, that's a big mandate kind of within that. What technologies are you excited about? What things do you think are going to make your city unique?
Impact of the Cloud on Logistics
00:11:29
Speaker
Well as kind of maybe it already sounds a bit antiquated but I think really for the logistics business the cloud has and for our company sizes the cloud has been the big part of that. They've been late to the game no startups and stuff like yourself and other things have been on there for now while right in these clouds.
00:11:48
Speaker
but i think this i call it kind of the second wave of the cloud right because the first one was there right people would jump on it there was some drawbacks people need a lot of things and the technologies in the last ten years of mature so much that it's now really the no brainer option right but.
00:12:03
Speaker
Are companies being the size that they are in adopting that in a large scale that is really what is driving this forward and every project kind of initiative that we are working on and centering it around that and seeing what the new capabilities are better than.
00:12:20
Speaker
Opened up by being in the cloud right so whether it's collaboration as we already touched upon when it's new capabilities weather there's integrations. Data platforms you know being able to use new sass tools and integrating them easily it's really a game changer to how we can operate and. Lowering that it barrier for the rest of the organization because at the end of the day we are not an it company we are logistics company and we should worry more about.
00:12:48
Speaker
how best to serve our customers and manage their freight rather than okay what software tools and what it capabilities we have. So if you had ten times the budget if you could do anything right a hundred times the budget a million times the budget. What problem would you love to go fix what would be the big thing you dream about fixing we're creating.
Consulting as a Key Investment
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah, I still like, I kind of took, you know, you sort of posed that question to me and I was thinking about it, right. And I mean, I've taken me a bit more from an investment perspective, like where would I if I was the CEO or something, where would I invest money right into the company in order to grow it and I still feel like
00:13:32
Speaker
Really this consulting cell that we can do for our customers is still the best place where you if you have really good people and you can go in and support a customer on a very deep level. You gain so much insight you gain so much connection to that customer that you really moving the needle inside of your company.
00:13:52
Speaker
right and i mean i tried to do this during the pandemic as you guys know like from like more of a consulting so it wasn't the best time to do it because the people didn't have money to invest but i still believe that i've seen so much know these are really the customers from a logistic
00:14:09
Speaker
prospective that are moving your needle right when you're working for the walmart let's say i use that kind of like is. No an example of the world who have really complicated supply chains and those again those problems that you can solve inside of those things and i look towards you know.
00:14:24
Speaker
Colleagues and friends and stuff that work for the you know the bcg's the cap geminis of the world the mckinsey's of the world right those companies are doing pretty well these days right and because they are able to connect with customers and customers see that need of having that expertise and i would love to be able to do that. On a larger scale from an industry specific perspective rather than this generic like okay i'm gonna go just hire a project manager but really get afraid.
00:14:52
Speaker
Managed solution that i can implement as a customer. What keeps you in this industry what you know you and i both been doing this a little while now and i'll tell you my answer afterwards but kind of what keeps you getting up in the morning and showing up for work.
Enduring Problems in Logistics
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, like any job, I think it's like I say, on a personal level, it's definitely the people, right? Finding a good group of people I've moved around a little bit, right to that also find a challenge and one of solve problems. And that's kind of the first set of it. And the second set is that the problems are not very easy to solve, right? Being in this industry for 20 years, the problems I'm solving today are not so different than the problems I was trying to solve 20 years ago.
00:15:37
Speaker
right and i just shows you that you sometimes wonder compared to the people who are in research and universities and stuff and they work on problems for twenty years before the right there you know paper on it and i feel like we're similar to that we're in this world where you know of course privileged as well. To try and solve and they solve these issues in different ways try out different ways of things seeing the environment being different and seeing if we can solve it with that.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, and continuing to see if there's a better solution on the horizon, right? It's funny. My answer that I've given to that question is almost identical. I kind of got into this industry, just found a random job fixing computers, similar situation, and said, I'm going to do this for three months, and then I'll find something more interesting to do. And that was 1999. I am working on finding something more interesting to do at the moment I do. I'm out.
00:16:34
Speaker
24 years of searching for something more interesting. So what do you think is kind of the hard part about the change management and the kind of managing a company and an organization through transformation, right?
Importance of Understanding in Change Management
00:16:51
Speaker
Which is your mandate. I think step one is always kind of to bring people on board. I have that S curve on my desk, right? Of,
00:16:59
Speaker
know as you roll out something and people get excited and then they hit this peak and then it's downhill for quite a few months if not years and then you get the people out of the trench and slowly build that up and I try to always remember that.
00:17:13
Speaker
It's one of those things where as any change management, when people talk about hard things in life that you need to change or lifestyles that you need to change, it's a journey. And remembering that people have to go through that journey in order to get to the other side. There's no quick fix. They go through the different stages. So for me, that's the important part is that to realize that
00:17:35
Speaker
There's gonna be good days and there's gonna be bad days regardless of the things and you get through them at the end right i try to be very open about that right and to be very understanding when people have struggles and they bring those to you. I mean these days a lot of people put a lot of hours into logistics especially
00:17:53
Speaker
over the last two years, right? Meaning that you bring a lot of personal things, you know, it's going crappy in your life situation, you know, you bring those things to work. And I think being sensitive to that is a huge part of the change management, right? Okay, you know, it's holiday season is coming up, you know, I'm not going to try and roll something out the week before Chinese New Year, right? In the Asia region, that's just not, you know, and I think that for change management, when you can adapt your change that you require of the organization or in the project to
00:18:23
Speaker
kind of the life situation that's going on you're much higher rate of success because you're leaning into people's natural tendencies right and not trying to flow it you know go up against the river rain as they say and try
00:18:38
Speaker
to force things on people and you're kind of meeting them where they're at and then change becomes much easier because usually people, you know, you're always trying to implement change for the positive and you have your reasons and those will line up with other people as you meet them where they know what you're trying to do. Is that something that working inside of a forward to try and implement technology?
Roles in Software Implementation
00:19:01
Speaker
You know, we have a chain. I know we have customers who have
00:19:04
Speaker
sort of people enroll similar to yours. And then we have customers where they don't really have project management or kind of strategic change management and they leave it up to the software vendor to try to make the change. Do you think that it's necessary to drive that change manager from, from inside, or is it something that you think a project manager or an implementation team from a software company can bring to the table?
00:19:31
Speaker
I think it depends on the commitment from the software company. You need the role regardless. I see a lot of times, forget what it's called at Chennai, but customer success is sort of the general title in the industry. If you want that to really be the case, it's a time
00:19:47
Speaker
commitment and that person for the period of the rollout really becomes more part of your customer in this case is, you know, and the logistics companies part rather than your company, right? And they're speaking for them and they're fighting for bugs in the software or changes or all this kind of stuff. And that's really what makes it successful. So I think as long as the role and the person playing that role is there, regardless of where it comes from, right? That's what's required in order to make it a success.
00:20:13
Speaker
we argue about this a lot of times internally especially at home and we're quite a very progressive at the moment we're trying to push out a lot of pieces of different software but we've you know we've learned this lesson the hard way where if you don't have the right sponsor if you don't have this kind of role on board inside of the project doesn't matter how good your software is.
00:20:32
Speaker
know how easy to use how explicit the value is from what it brings it's still super difficult right i'm not having that buy in from that local person they have. So the role i think is there can software vendors play the role yes but i don't know always a software wonders are willing to make the investment to put a person in for the time it requires for that role to be executed successfully and i will say that is a heavy lift.
Empathy Gap in Software Companies
00:21:00
Speaker
I think especially for software companies that maybe don't have people who have lived the life at the desk level. And, you know, it's sometimes a little bit hard for some software companies that I've seen going more back to my time as a CIO inside of a free company than in my time at Chain.io. But where if they don't have that, they haven't done it, right? They haven't had a shipment stuck at a port. They haven't had a customer calling and saying,
00:21:27
Speaker
you know, I'm going to reject this shipment if it shows up a day late and I don't care about your problems. I don't care that it was on the ever given, you know, not my problem. It's hard sometimes I think for software companies to hire employees who can develop that empathy, you know, where that empathy has to extend outside of the project plan and outside of the spreadsheet that where the Microsoft project Gantt chart right into the, okay, but this is the real world that's living around this thing. And this is what we're asking this person to do.
00:21:54
Speaker
and all of the other things that that person sitting in an office in Kuala Lumpur is being asked to do today. So I think it's a big challenge. Yeah, and I do feel like where we've had a bit more success at Helmand as our teams evolve and we're using newer technologies, we try to go through this agile journey as well, where some of these principles and things are stated.
Success of Collaborative Teams
00:22:17
Speaker
And I think these larger teams that we
00:22:19
Speaker
try to form without sort of that set role definition, right? Like you're a software developer and you're the vendor and you're the business guy and things and more make it team that the end of this team of these five, 10 individuals, we have this outcome and let's work together as a team in order to reach that outcome. And it doesn't really matter. Maybe one day I have to do a little bit more manual work or maybe I have to do some testing or maybe I have to write up the PowerPoint to present it to management.
00:22:48
Speaker
And all of those things kind of flow a bit more naturally and it's really like a unit that we say that we succeed as a unit and we fail as a unit. Those kind of that mentality of being able to singularly focus on delivering it has been a big part i think of the successful projects that we've run. And you can bring in a software and then it becomes more natural for a software vendor to be part of that group and team to deliver those things.
00:23:14
Speaker
So what's it like trying to do that from your house on the west coast of North America for a company that's based literally halfway around the world in Germany?
Advantages of Remote Work
00:23:24
Speaker
How does that change the job? Involve some early mornings, that's for sure.
00:23:29
Speaker
Yeah, so I think I'm a little bit, let's say, blessed because I haven't given the experience in order to do this for a longer time in my life, right? I've worked for German or European-based companies for, you know, the last 10 plus years and, you know, it comes a bit more naturally to do these things, right?
00:23:46
Speaker
reach people where they're at to be available a little bit more than I probably should be. If people are sitting in Singapore, they can message me in the evening. If people are sitting in Germany, they can message me in the mornings. That's where I'm at in order to reach out. But I know that to make that successful, I can give them the flexibility in order to live that world back and forth.
00:24:09
Speaker
and you have to kind of have that mentality if you want to be successful inside of these larger organizations that are you have to sit on a plane for half your life right that's the two options that you have right to be there in person for things but i try to always you know be there i try to you know deliver i try to show the benefits of being time.
00:24:30
Speaker
Shift it right so you know taking self initiative and you know showing someone is like while you drop something on my desk no, what are the next morning you come back into the office you have a powerpoint or you have like no peace of test or you have like a reply to that email right so i think keeping the flow going you know even in a distributed environment because.
00:24:50
Speaker
and luckily the pandemic has now taught companies that hybrid work is here to stay right i think people you know and your company i know is sort of built on that as well as you need to find the right working modes in the right kind of people who are willing to do that right i have my one colleague sitting texting me while he's waiting for
00:25:08
Speaker
for his kids to fall asleep sitting out that side of their door, right, on what's happened. It's like, don't phone me, you have to text me because otherwise the kids are gonna wake up, right? So you kind of, you find these different ways of working and if the company is flexible and you find the right group of people, you can really make it success, I think.
Adaptation to Remote Trends
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. Many people ask me more from the tech side, you know, other companies that are not in our space about this whole remote work thing and this, you know, hybrid environments and all of this during, as we went through the pandemic.
00:25:38
Speaker
And it really made me take a step back because coming up through a customs broker and freight forwarder, you know, I think we had, when I first started at the first one, maybe we had, let's say 400 employees, but we also had 15 offices, right? In the US. So the average, you know, and if you figure a quarter of the employees were at headquarters, every other office was 10 people, 15 people, you had a little bit bigger in JFK, a little bit bigger in LA, you know, but you'd have four people in Columbus, you'd have,
00:26:07
Speaker
you know, four people, you know, this is where you still had to sort of have a physical location at every port. So it was always remote, right? Like even if you were in the office, the team wasn't right. And you were solving a problem, you know, for Seattle today, or I'm so, you know, and then going through and getting acquired and, you know, suddenly having an IT staff that was Singapore, London, Philly, Nashville, and LA. Right. Okay. Well,
00:26:35
Speaker
What does being in the office even mean at that point, right? There were days where I spoke to no one who was in the building with me. So I think it almost comes that it's, it's like a hard question for us because just in this business, it's just always been remote to some effect. So we move things from point to point. Okay. So wrap us up here a little bit.
Advice for Newcomers in Logistics
00:26:55
Speaker
If somebody's coming into the industry today and you were going to give them a piece of advice about
00:27:03
Speaker
systems or change management or any of the things we've talked about, kind of what's a piece of advice you'd give somebody that you wish someone had given you? I think the extent of what, like how deep the tunnel goes, right? I think
00:27:17
Speaker
You see this fallacy that the tech companies who came in with very little logistics expertise kind of came into right and a lot of even the vendors would like release software and stuff right they come in and they do something very simple and then they get so many responses well with this exception and that exception right and I think that.
00:27:34
Speaker
It's not to scare people, right? It's just that to understand where your desires lay, right? And giving that a clear advice to say, like, listen, this is a complicated topic, right? And this is complicated problems, and there's many permutations to this, right? And you can't just boil it down to the, you always say the 80-20 rule. Well, you know, the 20% of the exceptions, right? That 20% is the window what drives most of the business, right?
00:28:02
Speaker
It's understanding the whole thing is very important. And you need to love to do that, right? I always love organizing. I love going in and trying to find these different things and trying to kind of harmonize and challenging people. Okay, just an exception. But I think that has to be there. If you don't like those kind of problems where there isn't easy, straightforward answers that you can just solve and push forward.
00:28:25
Speaker
people get i've seen at least in my past i get frustrated by the industry right there like why i can't stand it that you know they always deliver something and then always like ten questions ever and as always. Changes and you know why do they keep on asking for new features when you know i've just delivered something and.
00:28:42
Speaker
If you don't enjoy that then it's a tough business right but if you embrace it and you find out exactly and you know i hold on to those moments where you know you finally have delivered something and one of the sea freight or air freight managers come back to you and say like all this feature that you just did.
00:28:58
Speaker
That allowed me to save the company so many hundreds of thousands of dollars because we were able to see the incident coming at us or we were able to shift cargo or we were able to get notified. Those are the moments in the complexity that you hold on to that drive you forward. I think that's an awesome place for us to wrap up so thank you so much for being honest and been really fascinating and.
00:29:22
Speaker
I know we've got some white papers and some other things that we're working on together with Hellman, so it'll make sure we get all of those out as well. And again, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me.
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, good luck out there for everybody who's living the dream of working in logistics. I'm happy to chat to anybody, you know, to reach out to me on LinkedIn or so, and links will be in the chat, I'm sure. So thank you very much, everyone. They absolutely will. Thank you. Thank you so much to Christian for such an awesome and insightful episode. Be sure to tune in on the next episode. We'll be talking to Dave Boring from NFI, who's the president of the
00:30:06
Speaker
integrated logistics team. Dave has a really, really thorough insight on the combination of how we make all of the day to day operations in freight and logistics work together with technology at a level that's I would say beyond almost everyone you'll hear speak in the industry. So make sure to tune in for that episode.