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Extended Clip - Juventus Capital Gains Case: Why Juve Were Deducted 15 Points & Is It Fair?
1.3k Plays3 years ago
After Juventus given a 15 point deduction in the capital gains scandal shaking the Serie A, Carlo Garganese and Nima Tavallaey discuss and debate why this happened and if the Bianconeri are the only team being singled out.
This is an extended clip from this weeks free Monday episode of The Italian Football Podcast which is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and Google podcasts.
To listen to ALL complete episodes of The Italian Football Podcast, go to Patreon.com/TIFP and become a Patron for only $2.99 USD per month (excluding VAT).
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Transcript
Ongoing Issues in Italian Football
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast. Just expanding on what we said at the top here, I'm just tired and exhausted by all this. I hate that we're even having to discuss this, basically having to discuss before our very eyes and witness the self-destruction of Italian football again.
Juventus Case Handling Critique
00:00:23
Speaker
I mean,
00:00:25
Speaker
The way that this has been handled as well is something that I don't like at all, because I don't understand why they couldn't have just if they're going to, because this doesn't, you know, regardless how you feel about Calciopoli or doping or whatever, this doesn't go to the heart of what's happening on the pitch in that sense. Yes, there is a link, of course, if you cook the books, you can sign players and that impacts sporting, but that's an indirect.
00:00:47
Speaker
you know, it's an indirect impact on what happens on the pitch, meaning they could have actually given Juventus to start next season with minus 15 points. There is no reason to go into the table this season in the middle of the season with this kind of nuclear option. There was no need for that. There was no need for that. I mean, that's where I'm most critical against them because there was no need to do that. And also, again,
00:01:12
Speaker
I understand that this is for the previous seasons and the priest my investigation and all that, but it doesn't look serious. Again, it doesn't look transparent. It looks like a knee-jerk reaction. It looks like a populist reaction to just, we're angry at you if we're doing shady shit, and so we're just going to throw the book at them on a case which we're going to get to as well.
Financial Misconduct Allegations
00:01:41
Speaker
Look, there is no doubt every single club in the Italian ecosystem does this. Juventus took the piss. They literally took the piss. They did it. If everyone stole a cookie, Juventus stole the bakery. That's the equivalent here. There's no doubt about that. Let me move around because that was going to be my third point. I think this is what
00:02:07
Speaker
is this is what has angered and upset Juventus fans so much is that yes, it's absolutely no one is denying that and we'll get to whether it's actually even illegal what Juventus has done. We'll come to that.
00:02:23
Speaker
is yes, everybody inflates transfer fees. And sorry, it's clear you've entered inflated transfer fees. I mean, it's so obvious. I mean, the Pianic-Arfa deal was just so obvious. I mean, any idiot could see it was so blatant, you know, a 30-year-old Miram Pianic.
00:02:43
Speaker
who'd been in decline for two years, you put it on the books for 60 million, you sign Arthur Mello for 72 million. I mean, it's so obvious. There's so many of those deals. If you look through Juventus' transfers, youngsters, I mean, it was systemic. No one is doubting that. They did, like you said, they took the piss. But I think what has really angered and upset Juventus is why are Juventus the only team that
Selective Punishment Concerns
00:03:12
Speaker
that have been you know singled out and yes you say it like you said there could be others that are brought into it but you know we can only go by what we're seeing at the moment and you know if I just to give other examples I love Napoli I want them to win the Scudetto the last thing I want is for them to get points deducted to get points deducted you know I I never I'll be I'll be even more pissed off than I am now if you if Napoli were to get
00:03:37
Speaker
a load of points deducted and didn't win the Scudetto as a result of that. So the last thing I'm doing is calling for Napoli to get points deducted. But check out the Victor Osseman deal from transfer from Lille. I mean, that transfer is every bit as blatant as the worst transfers that you've entered. They sold three absolutely dreadful youth players and kinesis to Lille for 20 million as part of the Osseman deal.
00:04:00
Speaker
I mean, it's absolutely blatant. Well, Grassani in an interview, he's a lawyer, and he says they asked him about this specific question.
Evidence and Legal Justifications
00:04:07
Speaker
They said, why have the other teams? And he says the reason for that is because the Turin public prosecutor could not prove and did not have the evidence regarding the other clubs that the psychological element of the crime, meaning the mens rea, which I referred to earlier, the intent was not there.
00:04:30
Speaker
in the other clubs, whilst with Juventus the evidence showed that it was.
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's what that's what he's that's what he's he's I mean, I mean, that's the legal aspect of it. I know. I know. I know. And it depends. We don't know. We haven't seen the we haven't seen the explanation. So we don't know. But I mean, you know, even it sounds like me, it's probably just, you know, I mean, it sounds like technical technicalities, but whatever, you know, it's not technicality. It's just how the law works in order for a crime to be to be proven. You have to have the act itself. But then you have the mental element as well. That's just how the law works.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, and it works everywhere. Different ways are working. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I will actually we'll get to that. I will come back to that. I will come back to that in a bit. You've made you made the legal point there, but I do have I do have something to come back on that. You know,
Inconsistencies in Club Punishments
00:05:15
Speaker
so there's there's that there's there's I mean, the Bastani case from Inter is absolutely blatant as well. You know, when when into sign Bastani and they included a Guelphi.
00:05:24
Speaker
Has anyone ever, anybody listens to this, heard of the play called Eguelloffi? I hadn't even heard of him. I was doing my, I mean, I can remember this from a few years ago, but I'd forgotten the big specifics of it. Because I can remember there was some controversy at the time about this. Yeah, I remember. I couldn't remember. I couldn't remember. But I had to do my research for this. I had to check it out. Eguelloffi. Who the hell is Eguelloffi? He's playing Celiacino. He's 28 years old. He went for 6 million as part of the deal. And then the following summer, Betella,
00:05:50
Speaker
for seven million. And that was the following summer. That was the following. Yeah, but it was all part. Well, no, that was not part of that. There were another there were a couple of players involved in the Bastoni deal, but Igwelfi was one. I remember that vividly. But the following
00:06:05
Speaker
I mean, you might find it hard to prove. You might find it hard to prove they were part, but that does happen a lot in Italian football where they, you know, they say, OK, you know, we'll do this now, but then next summer you take these. But anyway, you can't prove that. But anyway, just look at them. Just look at the figures of some of these deals. I mean, you know, it says it all. And, you know, so even the base, the point is, you know, there's other examples as well. I mean, the Benucci Caldera deal. I know Juventus are involved in that one as well. But even if you're even if you're able to even if you're able to prove that
00:06:34
Speaker
What's the name of that Napoli player who went for 7 million to Lille as part of the Oseman? He plays in Serie D now. He's 22 years old. There's a Napoli player that was a youth player that went to Lille as part of the Oseman deal, who at 7-8 million euros, and he plays in Serie D now.
00:06:53
Speaker
Yeah, and he said that his career had been ruined by it. He came out and said, yeah, I can't remember the names. I did have it written down. I mean, my notes here are so long. Yeah, me too. I can't find my notes. I was trying to condense what I had written down, otherwise we'd be here all day. For me, if you look at the most boom, I've got written notes, I've got computer notes, and I've got my phone notes. So I'm really struggling, scrambling here.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah,
Fan Perspectives on Fairness
00:07:18
Speaker
yeah. I mean, so I mean, I guess that the angle with Juventus fans is, you know, other teams, everybody does that. You mean, you've openly admit that everyone does it. Yes, Juventus have taken the piss and they've done it to an in debt on an industrial level levels that no one else has done it. But other teams have also done this a lot. And we've had some real serious examples like the two I've said here where they really did take the piss. Okay, maybe not
00:07:43
Speaker
in terms of numbers than much as you've entered, but everyone done it. So the point is, yes, OK, if you're going to penalise you've entered 15 points or nine points or whatever, you know, how can no one else be punished for this? How can it only be you've entered? Well, I'm saying watch this space when it comes to that because and also and the and the second part to that
Debating Legal Grounds and Subjectivity
00:08:03
Speaker
is
00:08:03
Speaker
the mental element, which Grasani, as I've read, has said, and also Kine said himself, that they've looked at the totality of the evidence after the priestly investigations, and they've come to the conclusion that there was definitely intent to deceive the system.
00:08:19
Speaker
And that's how sporting law works in Italy. Personally, that sounds quite subjective to me. That sounds quite subjective that they would decide that the totality of what Juventus have done in terms of the capital gains justifies a 15 point error. It's not subjective. They only look at the evidence in front of them. And the evidence in front of them is what the priest my investigation has handed them or what the priest my investigation uncovered.