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Ep.95: Soil Health for Flower Farmers with Jen Aron of Blue Raven Farm
1.7k Plays11 days ago
Today's guest is the woman I call when I have a real soil question.
Jen Aron is a regenerative farmer and soil agronomist at Blue Raven Farm in Corbett, Oregon, and she has spent the last decade quietly proving that soil is its own ecosystem with its own voice. In this episode we walk through what is actually happening beneath our feet, why compost may not be the answer you have been told it is, and the mantra she has taught me to repeat when farming feels too slow: trust and stay the course.
In this episode:
- Why "no-till" is not the one-size-fits-all answer the internet wants it to be
- The ball pit analogy that finally made soil structure click for me
- Why too much compost can actually invite disease into your plants
- The single tool Jen would buy on day one if she could start her farm over
Guest Bio
Jen Aron is the founder of Blue Raven Farm in Corbett, Oregon, where she has been farming regeneratively for ten years. She is an agroecologist, farmer, and educator. Before Blue Raven, Jen spent seven years with Oregon State University Extension, running a beginner urban farming program where she trained over a thousand new farmers. Today she consults with flower farmers, food farmers, and growers across the Pacific Northwest, helping them build soil that can actually hold a farm up.
Connect with Jen
- Website: https://www.blueravenfarm.org
- Instagram: @blue_raven_farm
Related Episode With Marion Boswall:
Sign Up For Podcast Newsletter: https://thefloweringfarmhouse.myflodesk.com/backyardbouquetpodcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Backyard Bouquet Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Backyard Bouquet podcast, where stories bloom from local flower fields and home gardens. I'm your host, Jennifer Galizia of The Flowering Farmhouse. I'm a backyard gardener turned flower farmer located in Hood River, Oregon.
00:00:17
Speaker
Join us for heartfelt journeys shared by flower farmers and backyard gardeners. Each episode is like a vibrant garden, cultivating wisdom and joy through flowers.
00:00:28
Speaker
From growing your own backyard garden to supporting your local flower farmer, The Backyard Bouquet is your fertile ground for heartwarming tales and expert cut flower growing advice.
Jennifer's Journey to Soil Health
00:00:39
Speaker
All right, flower friends, grab your gardening gloves, garden snips, or your favorite vase because it's time to let your backyard bloom.
00:00:54
Speaker
Welcome back to the Backyard Bouquet podcast. Today's episode is one that I have been quietly looking forward to for a long time because the path that brought today's guest here is a kind of a full circle story that I don't think I could have written if I tried.
00:01:11
Speaker
Back on episode 52 of the podcast, I sat down with Marian Boswell, author of The Kindest Garden, After we wrapped that conversation, Marian said to me, Jen, I have someone you should meet, and she lives not too far from you. So Marian and I talked for a while, and she was like, there's this lady, Jen, who's a soil agronomist that you need to meet. And that was Jen Aaron at Blue Raven Farm.
00:01:35
Speaker
When i hung up the call with Marion, it hit me. Years ago, I was sitting on an airplane flipping through the Growing for Market magazine, and I read an article about a vegetable farmer near Corbett, Oregon, who was healing her soil.
00:01:49
Speaker
That article was the first time I ever became curious about what was actually happening beneath my feet. And it's the reason I started caring about soil health at all.
00:02:00
Speaker
That farmer was Jen Aaron, who's here with us today. And in the time since Marian made that introduction, Jen has been to my farm more than once, walking the rows with me, helping me understand what my soil is trying to tell me. She is the woman who cracked open my curiosity and is now the one that I call when I have real soil questions on my farm, as she is now our soil agronomist who is helping us heal our new land.
Jen Aaron's Background in Regenerative Farming
00:02:27
Speaker
Jen is a regenerative farmer and soil agronomist. She works with flower farmers, food farmers, and everyone in between, helping them to build soil that can actually support what they're growing. And she is the one I trust most with this conversation. And I'm so excited for all of you to hear from Jen today. So Jen, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here.
00:02:50
Speaker
Wow. That was the most gracious introduction i have ever heard. Thank you. I just can't believe how serendipitous it is that I read about you years ago, and then it took having a guest on the podcast to make the introduction, and you're only, what, 45 minutes away from me?
00:03:10
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, we're neighbors. We are. And I'm so grateful. Jen, can you start out by telling our listeners a little bit about who you are and your background with farming?
00:03:22
Speaker
Yes. ah So my name is Jen Aaron. I'm an agroecologist. I'm a farmer and I'm an educator. i got my start my farming start about 15 years ago, um maybe a little bit more.
00:03:39
Speaker
And I farmed for Oregon State University Extension Service, running a beginner urban farming program where I was taking students, like brand new farmers, through an eight month training program.
00:03:52
Speaker
training ah farm training program And ah that was that was incredible. And I learned so much about farming and really was not super curious about soil at that juncture.
Choosing Corbett, Oregon for Farming
00:04:07
Speaker
ah and it wasn't and until I started my own farm and moved to Corbett, Oregon, ah where we have five acres that we're stewarding, that I made this decision to try to figure out a different way to grow than I had learned when I was working with the university.
00:04:25
Speaker
So what made you buy a farm in Corbett? but Honestly, ah we had been scoping out Corbett for a lot of years. Primarily, we had heard that the school district was very, very good. um And that was, and it's beautiful. It's right off the Sandy River. We know of some hikes and some swimming places here. and that That was, we you know, we we used would spend a lot of weekends just driving around and dreaming. And um as I was really seriously thinking about, like, what would this look like to have my own farm and do things a little differently?
00:05:06
Speaker
ah It took years to find the right place. You know this journey. Definitely. There's so many challenges looking for the you know, there, I don't know if there is such thing as the perfect property. I don't know if it exists, at least in our price range, it didn't. So we felt really, really lucky. We found this place that was a for sale by owner. It was far from perfect.
00:05:30
Speaker
But it was flat and had decent decent soil, not great by any means. And it had a house that was not a fixer upper because we don't have that skill set. Land I can i could work to repair, but the house not so much. ah So that's how we ended up here.
00:05:52
Speaker
Now, when you were looking for land, did you know you wanted to farm it? Yes. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And it's funny, my husband and i didn't totally agree on what kind of place we wanted to be. He wants to be by the river and have a lot of trees, which doesn't necessarily you know jive with ah you know having an open field to be able to farm. So ah this place where we are, you haven't been here. you have
00:06:22
Speaker
Oh my gosh, you have to come. We'll we'll have we'll have lunch. um But it's it's kind of the best of both worlds. where We're close-ish to the river, we're surrounded by trees, and then we have this open area where i can farm.
00:06:36
Speaker
It sounds kind of similar to ours. because we've but My husband also said we have to have the river and the trees. And somehow I call it our, it's not perfect, but I call it our unicorn property because there's very few places that have that proximity to the river and trees.
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah. Love that. It's it's so important. So speaking of things that are important, and you said that it had good soil, but not great, or it had okay soil.
Understanding Soil Health and No-Till Farming
00:07:01
Speaker
It wasn't great.
00:07:02
Speaker
Was soil health important to you from the beginning? From the beginning of Blue Raven, for sure. Yes. um i yeah I think I mentioned that while I was with Oregon State,
00:07:14
Speaker
it It just wasn't at the forefront of my mind, ah which at this point, looking back, feels bonkers to me to run a farm program and not be emphasizing soil like that. That just would not be how I would do it today. ah But you have to really be ah aware that like soil health was not at the forefront like it is today. Information was not really there.
00:07:43
Speaker
um Information was not readily available. um So that that journey was really, really hard one for me personally. um there There were some moments where I dabbled. um My supervisor every year, he would be like, hey, you need to set this learning goal every year. And I would be like, okay, like I want to work on this. I want to learn irrigation better. I want to do all these things. And one year it was like, I want to figure out what I want to I want to know what note like a no till for a year would look like.
00:08:17
Speaker
And that was kind of the and I knew nothing. i just was like, I i want to know. um and at the time, no till was really discouraged. The the. The publications were like, don't do it. It's going to result in weeds. It's not successful. Certainly not in this climate. It doesn't work. um And gosh, you know, tell me that I can't do something and I'm going to sign up to be the first one to try to do it. That's just my personality.
00:08:43
Speaker
um So I did this first year. note we we didn't bring in a tractor that year. and Jen, you know, I what I observed was so many more earthworms and this beetle that is called the Rove beetle, R-O-V-E. Do you know it? We have a bunch of them.
00:09:05
Speaker
They are my favorite. If I wasn't Blue Raven Farm, I would be Rove Beetle Farm ah because i don't know what it is about them. Well, i do know what it is about them. When you mess with them a little bit too much and they get angry, they lift up their hind like a scorpion. And I just, it's threatening and amazing to me. It's just like these beasts in the soil and they're intimidating and they're the more I've learned about them over the years, they're just, they're incredible. They eat slug eggs. They eat some violence. They're such an important part of the soil ecosystem.
Beneficial Beetles in Garden Pest Control
00:09:41
Speaker
And we, again, at the OSU farm, like there were a few but not many. And for something that you just love, like you want to see a lot of them. And that first year of no-till, I just watched that population explode.
00:10:00
Speaker
And that was kind of the first time that I was like, huh, I think there's something there's something more going on that i don't I don't know or understand yet.
00:10:11
Speaker
So they're a good thing because i I mean, I just see a beetle and I'm like, oh what's that doing here? But they're actually beneficial. Beetles are great. Yes. um So they eat, you said they eat, and this is huge for dahlia growers because you said they eat slug eggs or larvae.
00:10:29
Speaker
Yes. Slug eggs. Yep. Eggs. And then they eat some phylans also. Yes. So Simphilans, for those of you listening, you may or may not be familiar with them.
00:10:41
Speaker
I know that they can be a huge problem in the Pacific Northwest. They ate 1,200 of my dahlias one year back in, was that 2023? And it was devastating. I mean, they ate through all my whites and my blush dahlias.
00:10:55
Speaker
When they weren't coming up, I dug them up and found them. so But I had zero beetles at my old growing space also. So it sounds like that's another alternative to... um managing the problems with our dahlias with pests in the garden. That's awesome.
00:11:11
Speaker
Oh my gosh. i I love that. I spoke with a grower in California, um Elizabeth, from Singing Frogs Farm. she She was really one of the first no-till farms in California and And such a great just um inspiration and a little bit of a mentor for me. and similar to your Dahlia story, i had that with Veg where Simp Islands ate thousands and thousands of my plants.
00:11:38
Speaker
And I was devastated. It was the closest that I felt I ever came to just quitting farming. i was like, how do you, how do you win this battle? um So I spoke with her and we talked about soil and, you we were both very much on this journey. And at the time, and probably still today, the university publications say like, you need to till aggressively.
00:12:01
Speaker
That's how you get rid of them. And we really found a different path. So we we caught up just fairly recently. And she was like, so whatever happened? Like, how did this whole Symphylin thing shake out for you? And I was like, gosh, like, we just have so many cool underground predators that the Symphylins are still here and we just live in harmony with them. It's fine.
00:12:21
Speaker
And that's amazing. Right? Like, that's that's an ecosystem that has healed. It's beautiful. Well, that's so fascinating because when we had our infestation, I had ah the Department of Agriculture in Oregon come out and my inspector, she took samples, confirmed that they were garden simphilans because I was like, what is this little crawly thing all over my shriveled up dahlia tubers that basically don't exist? And so she sent them to the lab and said they were garden simphilans. She's like, there's not many publications on them. And they told me to till.
00:12:53
Speaker
And then I reached out in the flower community and everyone said, i don't know, I've never dealt with them before. i i couldn't find anyone that had experience. And one flower farmer reached out who also is a market vegetable farmer and said, maybe check the vegetable publications. And so I found... Two things. One thing said, burn your field down. And I was leasing land in a residential neighborhood. So that wasn't an option.
00:13:17
Speaker
And the other option was to interplant buckwheat and mustard seed. So ever since I, when you and I talked about not monocropping my dahlias, the reason I plant buckwheat down the center is because the roots of buckwheat are toxic to the garden simphylans.
00:13:34
Speaker
I did not know that. I love that. yeah yeah That's amazing. Yeah. I had never heard your Simphilin story before there. I just, I have nightmares. I'm just like crawling, sitting here, like thinking about them.
00:13:48
Speaker
Oh yeah. Farming is not for the faint of heart. I'm curious. Cause I still remember reading that growing for market article about your farm and You faced a lot of challenges in healing your soil, and I'd love to know more about this no-till experiment that you started. So you started by trying to no-till. That's when you found the beetles, and I got sidetracked because of the garden sim violence, so I apologize.
00:14:14
Speaker
Talk to us more about that no-till experiment.
No-Till Farming Experiment and Outcomes
00:14:16
Speaker
How did that work? Were you able to continue that? what were I mean, obviously it brought back the beetles, but what else? ah Yeah, ah honestly, it was just a it was a one off. And it was kind of towards the end. i was with ah OSU Extension for seven years.
00:14:35
Speaker
And I can't exactly remember what year, but I would say that it it's it is part of the story of kind of what got me thinking about how to do how to do farming a little differently. And i i but i feel like I've been telling this story a lot. um But i when I was with OSU, we were running this program. I had an opportunity to really see a lot of different farms, visit a lot of farms. So much of that time was being spent
00:15:11
Speaker
looking at weed equipment and tillage equipment. And i was going out into the fields and so thankful for the graciousness of farmers to share their space. Cause we all know like there's so, there's ah it's a pressure filled moment to like open your farm.
00:15:28
Speaker
There's so much heart and soul that goes into that. ah So this is not a criticism at all. It was just this observation that i just talked away into my brain and into my heart and soul where I was like, gosh, like armors are struggling. And despite this dedication to controlling weeds, like the weeds are still winning.
00:15:49
Speaker
And I started to like, in addition to this initial trial that I had with Oregon State, I just started to wonder if there was also a connection between tillage and weeds, which there absolutely is, which is really interesting. But that was kind of the very beginning of this like there There are some connections that I see through observation that I'm not really seeing in the literature or I'm not seeing the university really talk about yet, at least. Like it's happening now, which is awesome.
00:16:25
Speaker
But back then that that wasn't really the case. And that was that was kind of the the dream of Blue Raven. I was like, how do I how do 180 degree turnaround and grow differently and just see And in hopes that I would come through the other side with some answers to help inspire and like get farmers growing in a way that was a little easier at best. And it seemed like really weeds were, weeds were like my my mission because we all know like weeding is huge labor input. So if we could, if I could figure out how to decrease weed pressure, it feels, it felt like this, like this gateway into soil health. Like, I feel like it was an easy way to just get farmers to buy in right? Because that's such a huge labor at expense.
00:17:19
Speaker
So what happened with that? you took ah you You observed through Oregon State University, and then you had Blue Raven Farm. You were no till for the first year.
00:17:30
Speaker
Were you able to keep that up after that first year? Oh, are you ah sorry? are i may not have answered. i asked ah understood the question well. I'm sorry. so at OSU, it was one year. But when I switched over and i when I left the university in 2017,
00:17:47
Speaker
um i dedicated fully to no-till. Got it. Yeah, one had to play it dog mad like like like very much so. I mean, we did come in we brought in a plow to break up hard pan um and we tilled in lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of lime. You know this story well, Jen. My arms are hurting from those bags of lime this last week.
00:18:14
Speaker
Oh, I know. You're in year two. So and then from at that point, we I just stopped and just worked to minimize disturbance. And we i we were very much no till. And the goal was to see what that would look like and to really dedicate to it. my And it was tough. It was really, really tough. We had a lot of weeds. We had pests. We had disease. Right out of the gate. We were not a farm that had been farmed before. i was like, where do these...
00:18:43
Speaker
agricultural pests coming from? Like this wasn't even a farm. We're not next to a farm. i don't understand. But I mean, I just feel like it was lessons that I needed to see and experience. And my mantra through and through Jen was trust and stay the course. That was it. i was like, I just need to stick with this and trust that this ecosystem will start to repair if I just get out of its way.
00:19:12
Speaker
I can't tell you how many times I hear you telling me that in my head as I'm walking the field. Trust the process. Stay the course. Jen said it's going to work out. um It takes time, right? Like we with you and I had this conversation you know not that long ago, and and there's this urgency. we We want things to heal quickly.
00:19:33
Speaker
And it takes time. And it it took a lot of time with Blue Raven. like We did not start to see the the you know light through the clouds or light through the trees for for many years. It wasn't really until like year four. that I started to see a shift. i was like, okay, now we're cooking. Something's happening. It's very cool.
00:19:57
Speaker
So I'm sitting over here kind of moving in my seat thinking, okay, you're saying year four. I'm in year two, starting year two. I want to go back for a second though, to make sure that everyone understands what we're talking about.
Soil Compaction and Tillage Necessity
00:20:09
Speaker
When you took over, ah b gay when you became a steward of Blue Raven, You brought in a plow and you disked the field because of a hard pan. Can you explain what that means so that someone who's listening that maybe has never had to deal with a hard pan understands that process?
00:20:27
Speaker
yeah i Yeah, I love that clarification. Thank you for that. um Yeah, so this this land had not been farmed before. The soil was very, very hard. If I look back at photos, Jen, the soil is like this orangey red color. Now it's like this dark, rich color. It's really beautiful to see even just how the color has shifted. We're celebrating our 10th year right now, which is very, very cool. Congratulations.
00:20:58
Speaker
Thank you. um i'm just like beaming. i'm like, we made it. That's a big number. It's and it's a good number. It's a solid number. um So yeah, i had a neighbor. i have a neighbor, excuse me. I have a neighbor who's lovely. i didn't know him well. I knew that he had a tractor and I walked over there very sheepishly like, hey, like, what do you think? Can i hire you to...
00:21:23
Speaker
um to to do some soil work on my farm and he was so excited. um He's an older gentleman and he's got all the toys on his tractor and he was like, yep, he came over. He's like, this is what I'm going to do So we did a really deep, deep pass with ah with a plow. i wish I knew what kind of plow what it was. so I can't give that detail. i would have paid better attention if it was today. um But it was 10 years ago. and then he we I just threw so much lime down because our pH was like a four point eight. And um then he I had him come back until that lime in. And that was the last time that we brought in any type of big tractor tillage equipment.
00:22:12
Speaker
from that point. And um so one of the tools, and and you know this tool well, is the penetrometer. It measures soil compaction. So that is a really fabulous way to gauge where your compaction is and how severe it is.
00:22:31
Speaker
Jen, how severe was it on your place? don't know. Well, it's funny that we're having this conversation today because the NRCS from the USDA was out just yesterday and they brought their pentrometer and they're like, have you ever seen one of these? I'm like, yes, my soil agronomist Jen has one. um And they went out to, we've got our properties divided by a road. And on one side, we have started amending the soil and healing the land. The other side remains untouched. Well, part of the grant that we're applying for is to put the whole property in cover crops. So they wanted to use the pentrometer on the area that has not been touched. And it was really funny because they were like, you can't get through this ground. They brought the pentrometer and a shovel.
00:23:17
Speaker
And so do you want to explain to our audience why this matters, the compaction piece of the with the pentrometer? Yes. ah the So the penetrometer measures soil compaction and it measures in pounds per square inch. And if you can imagine, not everybody can see this. I wish we had a visual aid, but it's basically this long rod. it has like a three foot ish rod with handles that you hold. And then in the center of the handlebars is a gauge. And the gauge as you push will tell you how many pounds per square inch of pressure there is against the soil.
00:24:03
Speaker
So plants, most plants can grow without losing yields or be you know being compromised to growth 150 pounds per square inch.
00:24:18
Speaker
That is so impressive. 150 pounds. So that means that their roots can push through 150 pounds. That is correct. And, and like up to 200 pounds per square inch. So I kind of think between 150 and 200, that's the gauge that I'm really after because anything after 200 pounds per square inch, we start to have struggle. We start to have compromised plants. They just can't push.
00:24:47
Speaker
And that's not all all plants. It's most. There are some plants that have really aggressive roots and have the ability to crack open soil like the like the classic tillage radish. um im You know, dandelion is probably another one of those that's just able to.
00:25:06
Speaker
you know they're working those roots are working to heal the earth and to open up that soil. So the penetrometer just, it is my favorite tool ever. If I could go back 15 years you would be like, all right, what tool do you want on day one? It would be, I want a penetrometer because it's just so incredibly useful.
00:25:29
Speaker
ah before I was like using my finger, you know, it's like, how, how, how hard does the soil feel? Like our fingers are not roots. Right. um And it's, and actually like, we're terrible gauges at that. And the penetrometer does a beautiful job. And what I was realizing is that I was ah underestimating the capacity of what a plant can do.
00:25:55
Speaker
So what that means is that I think we were were always overworking the soil. So for an example, when we did this last year on my farm, we went, you you said that we always want to start with a native point. So we went to the fence line where there probably has not been compaction for years.
00:26:13
Speaker
And our field was previously hay and cattle. And so when we went to the fence line, there was no compaction. The pentrometer went all the way down to the ground. But when we came into the center of the field where we wanted to plant,
00:26:26
Speaker
At three inches deep, we had compaction. And then it went, what, like to 18 inches, the compaction, where, I mean, you're literally falling over trying to push this thing into the ground.
00:26:37
Speaker
And so that means that after three inches, the roots on my plants couldn't continue growing into the soil. That's right. Yeah. Well said. Well, I learned it from you. So I'm just repeating back the knowledge that you've taught me. so um So you had that same issue at your farm when you started out?
00:26:59
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And I honestly, I can't remember where we were at. um So yeah. Well, that was 10 years ago. But you obviously don't have that problem any longer if you didn't have to till again after that first year.
00:27:12
Speaker
Yeah. And honestly, Jen, now that I'm thinking back, I didn't have a penetrometer when I first moved here. It wasn't for several years in. So I went in with the plow pretty blind, just like i we have compaction. i just assumed um because I didn't know. that That tool was not on my radar probably it for the first three years. So that's ah that's fun to kind of jog my memory around that. Yeah. I don't think I got a penetrometer until like 2018.
00:27:41
Speaker
eighteen Well, they're expensive. Yeah, they're a couple hundred bucks. yeah Well worth it, though. um But yes, yes. Yes. And so I think there's a lot of misconception around tilling, especially right now because everyone's talking about now this no-till. But sometimes – because I even – I know when you first came out to our farm, I kind of had this mindset that we're not going to till because I want to be regenerative.
00:28:08
Speaker
And you had to kind of talk me off this ledge of like – I'm not going to make any progress because I have this three inch hard pan. So how do we know when it is the right time to till? Because you described it to me when we tear open the soil, it's like doing open heart surgery on the soil.
00:28:29
Speaker
Oh, it's a big question. Um, Yeah, there's i i i spend a i I really try to be mindful about the no-till conversation because you're right. like folk like it It feels like this it's this concept that folks really relate to. And it just it's almost this very prescriptive, one-size-fits-all solution to soil health.
00:29:00
Speaker
And soil health doesn't work that way. It's nuanced. um And it's based off of, you know, your specific context. Your farm is different than my farm versus different than your neighbor's farm, different than every of your person in your audience's farm. So I have personally seen some farmers that, and I i have a lot of regret um around this. i used to teach a lot of workshops here. i had um a
00:29:32
Speaker
like ah essentially like a soil health school called Bridgetty Farm School, like our first two years of production, like we, I had a school here, these incredible individuals, and they were learning very much in the same, like this parallel path that I taught in the way that I taught at Oregon State, I wanted to bring it here, but with the focus of soil health Unfortunately, that program was just too expensive for me to run on my own. I was doing it without any kind of funding or help. um It was a lot of fun, but it just lasted for two years.
00:30:06
Speaker
And, but we, and I started that process of like, Hey, we're going to figure out how to grow differently. And I don't totally know what that looks like yet. So every year we were working to reduce the amount of disturbance that we did to the soil. And folks who graduated from one particular farmer, gosh you know, she graduated, she went in to start her own farm. And because she had learned from me, and we had this no mindset, and it was really success. It was hard, but like we worked through it. And we were very, very successful.
00:30:47
Speaker
And i had mitigated the compaction on day one. And that didn't translate, unfortunately. So when they went to their other farm to start their own farm, they were like, we're I'm just going to do no till. This has worked for Jen. And they really struggled because they were sitting on ah on a hard pan that was six inches underneath.
00:31:09
Speaker
So I'm really cautious. And I just feel like, yeah, you mentioned this, like, you know, to rip open the earth, it can feel like open heart surgery.
00:31:20
Speaker
and then... the land can repair and it will. But I think we, it's so important, like we need the plants and we need the biology to do that repair work.
00:31:32
Speaker
And the plants can't do it if they're in compacted soil, if they're sitting on a hard pan. Thank you for explaining that because I think there's this misconception, at least I had this conception that, oh, I just need a cover crop or I can do this.
00:31:46
Speaker
But I mean, it took some massive machinery to rip open our field. And we still have probably 15 acres that hasn't even been touched by this yet. um So it is, it it's, what's the right word I'm trying to say here?
00:32:02
Speaker
I think it's just been eyeopening for me, um realizing that it's kind of that two things can exist at once. Like this isn't great for the earth, but also it's the only way to really start to heal the land. And we're seeing such a difference already.
00:32:18
Speaker
Yes. yes Yeah, it's, um yeah, i it it is hard it is it is aggressive on on the soil.
00:32:31
Speaker
And like you said, like it's a yes and. It's like, yes and now. the plants can do what they need to do. and you're so and And that soil health needle is now going to be able to move in an expedited way where you may be just, you know, you may be able to do no till on a six inch plant.
00:32:53
Speaker
plow pan, but it you may not be super successful for the first 10 years and you may come up and do all these things. Like it could just take so much longer. So I don't want to say, i i say this at all my workshops. I'm like, never say never and never say always. because it's it's um It's complicated. um So I would never say that you could never do no till without a plow or some type of breaking, but I do think that it does ah accelerate that process a little bit and allow the land to really start to to repair in such a profound way.
00:33:29
Speaker
Absolutely. For someone who's listening right now, who's either a flower farmer, we're recording this in the spring, or a gardener that's getting ready to prepare their ground for the first time this year, what is one soil principle that you wish everyone understood before they started planting?
Soil Structure and Plant Growth
00:33:47
Speaker
Ooh, I love that question. um i would say, Jen, that i have been spending a lot of time this year in particular talking about to farmers who have been farming for 10 or 15 years even to really go back and to understand the importance of soil structure.
00:34:08
Speaker
it is... It's those crumbs in the soil that are home to your biology. ah It's those crumbs in the soil that give your soil stability and resilience against your footsteps or against it. Or if you are bringing in some machinery, or or equipment to work the soil gently, allows, like though the stability of that soil structure really allows you to do that work and be resilient to that process.
00:34:42
Speaker
So i mean we could probably spend two hours talking about aggregates and micro aggregates and the biology that goes into them. And I love that topic. um But yeah, it's that soil structure. It's it's that how those minerals, the sand, silt and clay are interfacing with the bacteria and the fungi. And it's it is the basis of of what we what we're doing in terms of soil health and the successes of our farm.
00:35:11
Speaker
Now, I know you and I have had those two-hour conversations in the field before, but for someone listening today, can you paint a picture just briefly for us? Because i think that there's this misconception that you should be able to just put your hands in the soil and it's this fine, soft dirt.
00:35:31
Speaker
Like you talk about this black gold that comes in from compost and everyone's like, oh, look how fine and soft it it is And I believed that too for the longest time. And then you're like, no, actually, this is what you want your soil to look like. So can you help us understand that?
00:35:46
Speaker
yeah Yes. ah Can I use the ball pit analogy? you've heard me say this. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So i I think of those crumbs that are called aggregates for those listeners that really want to geek out on the biology.
00:36:04
Speaker
There are micro aggregates, which are invisible to the naked eye and need a microscope. And then there are macro aggregates. uh the micro aggregates are sand silt and clay and they are glued together by bacteria and organic matter and the macro aggregates the larger ones those we can see those are those big like like small to larger marble sized pieces of soil and it gives our soil a texture, like a pebbly texture. And those are created by fungi gluing and knitting together micro aggregates.
00:36:44
Speaker
And i I love just for folks to really understand how this is a connection between the physical properties of your soil and the biology coming together. This is where soil starts to come to life.
00:36:59
Speaker
So i love I love to use this analogy of this of the ball pit at the Family Fun Center. You know, it's got the colorful balls, it's covered in germs, but whatever, you want to jump in and, you know, both legs go in and your legs sink to the bottom, right? And yet it's all of these, hot like there it's these hard,
00:37:26
Speaker
um balls that are plastic, you know, plastic and, you know, like they are, there's substance there. And yet the way that they are organized is very similar to how our soil works.
00:37:41
Speaker
So when we have good aggregation, it's just like a ball pit. There's airspace, That water can travel through its homes for our microbiology and our roots, just like our legs jumping in the ball pit, the roots can just penetrate down through that system.
00:38:02
Speaker
So the alternative the the flip side of that is when you don't have good soil structure or you have at those crumbs and those aggregates that aren't stable. They're not strong. I want to be able to pick up a piece of soil, ah an aggregate that I, had and I wish we could just do this with everybody. i do this with people in my workshops. Like you should be able to pick up a piece, like ah of one of those crumbs of soil and put, put it between your thumb and your forefinger and give it a little bit of pressure and it should stay together.
00:38:39
Speaker
it's it's not, it's not, a, a like fine textured thing. Like we want to see, we want to see those pebbly, that like pebbly. I use that word pebbly. Cause like that for me, that was shocking for me. Like year four of doing this work. I was like, what happened to my soil? Like it's, it isn't fine anymore.
00:39:03
Speaker
It's this pebbly look to it. And it almost was alarming until I was like, Oh, yeah. this is a good thing. Like this meat, this is the ecosystem starting to repair. um When you don't have that, just to stay with this ball pit analogy, if you can imagine what it would be like if some cruel person came and sucked all the air out of those balls in the ball pit, and they were now stacked on top of each other,
00:39:33
Speaker
And so what would happen, Jen, what would happen if you jumped into that ball pit with the with the air sucked out of the balls and all of those colorful balls are just like nested in with each other?
00:39:45
Speaker
Well, I'm picturing a lasagna layer that you probably can't grow. you Well, you would just land on it. Yeah. Would your legs go through in the same way?
00:39:56
Speaker
No. No, right? Same with your plants. So this is this is the importance of that soil structure. and that like that visual of the ball pit with the with the air sucked out and those balls are now nested and on top of each other, that's compaction.
00:40:14
Speaker
I'm picturing also like if you took a jug of water and you poured it in, it would fill in between those ball holes. But if it they're flat, it's going to sit on top of all of them, kind of like my field with all my standing water.
00:40:27
Speaker
yeah We're working on your soil structure, right? And we've have we've looked and we've we've we've found aggregates and like what's happening, like you're here in the beginning phases. So your aggregates like don't have that stability quite yet.
00:40:41
Speaker
Yeah. We're getting there. Well, I was actually really excited. I should have sent you a picture the other day because i was pulling some weeds. Jen was at our farm probably a month ago. We did our soil testing.
00:40:53
Speaker
And in the last month, the weeds have grown like crazy. ah But same with our cover crop. Our cover crop is up to my shoulders. And last year, it didn't even get knee high. So I'm seeing improvements in some areas. But when I pulled out one of the weeds, there were aggregates all along the roots. And I was so excited because it was all like... you If you're watching on YouTube, you see my hands moving around here, but there were little size pebbles in all different shapes and sizes on the root structure that when I touched them, they didn't fall off or crumble. Because like normally you can shake off dirt, and I was like, oh my goodness, look at all of – and I think – what was it on?
00:41:31
Speaker
It was on some kind of grass. The USDA let me know that all of what I thought was weeds growing on the other side minus the napweed. is old pasture grass. So there's like four varieties of pasture grass that's growing in the field. um But when I pulled one of those out, there were all of those aggregates. And so i was super excited.
00:41:51
Speaker
think Jen would be proud. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I just was going to say, please send a picture of that. I want to see it. I will next time. Yes. And I'll share it on my stories on Instagram so people can see when I find that again.
00:42:04
Speaker
So what is the biggest misconception that you see around soil health with farmers and gardeners? Oh, I would say there's there's a few. If I had to choose one, it would be that compost is the fix-all.
00:42:22
Speaker
h That's a good one because i remember you told me i this was thinking I was going to need all this compost. And I didn't bring in any more compost last year after my conversation with you.
00:42:33
Speaker
So I would love to hear more. Yeah, so i i would say more often than not, but not always, that um when I'm working with producers and i I hear their stories, I hear their struggles, I look at their plants, I look at their soil, and then we do a soil test.
00:42:56
Speaker
and Oh, and I look at their weeds. There's so much you can tell from the weeds um that oftentimes I can already tell that when a soil is has been, has received a lot of a lot of compost. and Yeah, it's I don't want to portray myself as a compost hater by any means, because i think a good quality compost can can do a lot of good.
00:43:23
Speaker
ah It's when we have good quality compost that's full of biology rather than something that is produced on a massive scale, is turned excessively. You mentioned something about that black gold, like If a compost is black for me, I'm like, that's overturned and dead. It's, it's dead. um It's just, it's not gold at all. Actually, it doesn't smell great. ah A good quality compost should be like,
00:43:53
Speaker
oh like a 75% dark chocolate bar color, like just so lovely. And that like that rich, like dark, but not black. um And so that's one indicator.
00:44:06
Speaker
The thing about compost is that I, I think that it's great in small amounts and it depends on where your mineral profile is. If you have things,
00:44:19
Speaker
you know, the magical combination of low soil organic matter plus low phosphorus plus low potassium, compost and manures are going to be such a great, fabulous fit for your context.
00:44:33
Speaker
However, i think so because compost has been advocated for for so long as this like added, it doesn't matter how much that what I see is really high phosphorus and potassium levels, um which have a lot of problems in their own right, but I won't go too much into that except for the potassium piece is really significant because when potassium is, or excuse me, phosphorus, I misspoke.
00:45:06
Speaker
When phosphorus is too high, Mycorrhizae fungi will not colonize the plants very readily. mycorrhizae fungi is, it is like, it's the gold standard for, it is like the superhero of the soil. It's protecting your plants against pest and disease. It's like the, I, I, you know, it this, this comment will age me, but it like reminds me of inspector gadget, like go, go gadget arms that can just go and reach for forever. what I love that show. Yeah.
00:45:43
Speaker
I know, right? ah my I made my my, I didn't make, I made i did. i made my son a Inspector Gadget Halloween costume one one year and he still talks about it his Yeah, we loved that show. But yeah, so this fungus will insert itself inside of your plant roots and then reach out for so far beyond your plant roots for water, for nutrients. It will help your plants acclimate climate extremes like
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's so, so important. And one of the things that I have really been seeing a lot with clients is these really high phosphorus levels in their soil. They've been adding a lot of compost because that's what they've been told.
00:46:36
Speaker
And they're seeing a ah big uptick in disease. That makes sense to me. I'm like, right, because your disease defense system is not working anymore. it doesn't work in a high phosphorus.
00:46:51
Speaker
it isn't to say there aren't other organisms in the soil that can protect your plants against um pathogens, but mycorrhizae fungi is like a really important one that does that service for you. So,
00:47:05
Speaker
Yeah. That's so fascinating. My mind's spinning in so many directions right now. But one thing I'm thinking about in the dahlia world is that there is lots of disease amongst dahlias. I think it's over 80% of dahlias are estimated to be virused.
00:47:21
Speaker
And one of the things you commonly hear in the dahlia world is add more compost to your beds every year, dress them with a new layer of compost. And last year, I didn't bring any more compost because our budget was strapped too thin.
00:47:34
Speaker
But I put the amendments. And I mean, i think you had me put down 2,100 pounds of amendments last year. And i so I had such low pest pressure and very, i well, I don't even, I didn't pull a single plant. Not a single plant showed any signs of disease last year, which is, and I mean, I've been really harsh at culling. I mean, one year I pulled like 800 of my dahlia plants. So, and then losing 1200 to the garden simphylans might've helped with that too.
00:48:05
Speaker
But all that being said, I had very low pest pressure and I didn't see in my dahlias, there was nothing that showed signs of a viral disease and I didn't bring in compost. So who knows if that's related, but that makes me wonder.
00:48:19
Speaker
it could. And your phosphorus levels, i don't have your t I don't have your soil test in front of me. I think that your phosphorus levels are like either in range or a little bit low. They were a little bit low because you had me add some more this year. Yeah, I did want you and your potassium was low. So you were in that situation. You were that Goldilocks situation where I was like, you have low soil organic matter, low potassium and low FOS, but also like not a lot, you know, like no more than half of an inch. Like let's let's feather the system along. um But yeah, I mean, that makes I love that story, Jen, because that makes a lot of sense. um Oftentimes in a low phosphorus environment, that mycorrhizae is colonizing really, really
Compost Misconceptions and Mycorrhizae
00:49:03
Speaker
well. It's helping bring in the phosphorus, but also it's able to do that pathogenic work for you as well.
00:49:10
Speaker
So I'm curious, the mycorrhizae, a lot of times people say, let's put down the compost because it creates the organic matter. How do you build up the mycorrhizae then if you're not putting down a bunch of compost?
00:49:22
Speaker
It's already in your soil. Yeah. Just care for it. Yeah. Most, you know, mycorrhizae is a fungus. um it It will, those spores will show up if you care for your soil. um You know, there it's a, I don't know if it's necessarily a million dollar industry, but it's, it's a, there is an industry of mycorrhizae out there. You can buy those powders at the, at the feed store or the nutrient store, even on Amazon.
00:49:50
Speaker
ah There was a pretty scathing research paper that came out 2000, I think it was either 24, 2025. Literally, called it was like 36 different products. They called, the researchers called these products out by name. I was so thankful for it.
00:50:09
Speaker
Only one was what it said it was. Only one? Only one. Some of them, some of them were pathogenic. Most of them, you know, some of the packages were saying that it has like eight different strains of mycorrhizae. Maybe they were only finding one. So that of those companies, of course, got dinged. um So I there are some ways to like and I don't you can look online how to how to colonize mycorrhizae. check it out. I can't remember. It's like Cornell University, one of their farms, they talk about soaking, um you know, bales of, I can't remember. ah but um yeah, there's, there's ways that you can do that without. And also you can just love your soil and try to minimize how deep you're tilling, how many passes you do. All of those things are going to really help with with supporting any kind of fun good beneficial fungi in the soil.
00:51:12
Speaker
So it's kind of like the worms because last year, Jen, when you came out to our farm, we did a soil analysis. And I'd love to talk about that for a second, but we didn't really find – we found four worms in a shovel, which might sound great until we talk about this. But when I asked you, how do I get more worms? I was like, do I need to go buy more? And you said, no, they will come.
00:51:34
Speaker
And literally when I dug my dahlias, every tuber clump was covered in worms. Is it the same then with the mycorrhizae that they will just, they'll expand or as you heal your soil?
00:51:46
Speaker
Yes. That's, that's how I, that's how I understand it. And ah a lot of ecologists will, will agree, you know, just it's that field of dreams, right? Like build it and you will come, um you know, let your soil rest, try to minimize, you know, it's that disturbance, the the fungi in the soil. It's so, so, so, so important. It's also the easiest to destroy.
00:52:10
Speaker
i think of it like like a really fine spider web that it's it's expanding throughout your soil profile. So you can imagine like any type of tillage is gonna damage that. And it is resilient to a point. And if you keep at it and you're pretty aggressive with your soil, you can start to really have some negative effects on the fungal populations in your soil.
00:52:36
Speaker
Perfect. So I want to talk about the soil analysis. I lead a community that used to be called the Dahlia Patch, and now it's the Dahlia Growers Collective. And I would constantly have members ask, okay, here's my NPK numbers. What do I need to do? And I was always like, well, I don't look at just my and NPK. And when you came out, we did a soil analysis. Can we talk about a soil analysis and how that can help us understand our soil?
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah, i I think I understand the question. Sorry, it put get me back on track of if I'm not it correctly. When you came out to my farm last year for the first time, i I was kind of thinking that, oh, we're going to do just like the NPK test. We're going to look at these numbers to know what we add. And you said, well, that's just part of the equation. We also want to look and feel. You had me smell the soil. And this last year when you were out there, I was like, there's this terrible smell when I'm digging my dahlias. And you actually told me that that represents something too. So we can actually learn a lot just from looking at it without even reading any numbers.
00:53:41
Speaker
Yes. Okay. Yes. So ah what we did was called a visual soil assessment.
Visual Soil Health Assessment
00:53:48
Speaker
It's a I don't know, it's like nine or 10 different tests. And I love to dig holes. As you know, there's so much we can learn with just by observing, by smelling, by feeling without even sending. And we do send samples to the lab. But there's so much that we as farmers can learn by just digging holes. And we dig a hole. I love to dig a hole on a fence line. I love to dig a hole at your best performing area. And I like to dig a hole in your worst performing area and compare and contrast and take lots of pictures. So, yeah, we smell the soil. Soil should smell sweet and earthy. If it smells funky or a putrid or s sulfury in any way, that can be an indicator that it's anaerobic and not getting, it's suffocating. Our microorganisms in the soil, they are living, breathing,
00:54:49
Speaker
beings just like we are. They need a home, they need food, they need oxygen. ah So when we smell that kind of putrid, funky smell, that tells us that our soil is not able to breathe. It's not breathing well. So we do penetrometer reading, we assess the compaction. I'm looking at aggregate stability, though that that ball pit. how How's your ball pit for functioning? um What else are we doing? The worm count.
00:55:19
Speaker
Worm counts. Yes. Worm counts are are such a fun subject right now. um There's a new element that i'm I'm having to consider and I'm really trying to be vocal about. that there is a new invasive worm in Oregon called the jumping worm. It's in Oregon?
00:55:37
Speaker
It is in Oregon. who And what is problematic about this worm is that, and from what I understand, most of our worms aren't necessarily native. A lot of them are are European worms. This worm is a little different. Its identifier is that it's large. It's very, very squirmy, like,
00:55:58
Speaker
like just really, really squirmy. And around its on its neck, it has a black band that goes all the way around its neck, completely encircles the neck versus other the other worms that aren't this jumping worm. It's more of a saddle that sits just on the um on top of the neck, but doesn't go all the way around.
00:56:23
Speaker
So this worm is problematic because it is a like it's consuming organic matter and it's consuming our soil aggregates at a rapid rate. So if you can look online, you can learn about this online. um I'm just learning about it. So, but I i do feel like it's important ah when you have this worm, sometimes it will look like your soil starting to look like coffee grounds. So that's a warning sign that you might have ah a an invasive jumping worm. Be really careful if you're doing worm composting or worm bin that you're really cautious about where you're buying your worms from. um
00:57:03
Speaker
And what else do I want to say? Yeah, I think initially it started being problematic in the forests because it got loose in the forest and it started to break down all of all of the organic matter that's under the trees very, very quickly. So it's like getting rid of the forest floor. Mm-hmm.
00:57:24
Speaker
That's it's problematic. So, yeah, it is an Oregon. i haven't talked with anybody who has had it or seen it. So that's good. But it's you know like all things, knowledge is power. So it's nice for us to to just be aware.
00:57:39
Speaker
Absolutely. and Look online for those images. Okay. So the good worms though, I got excited when we found four worms. yeah We did a, we took a spade and we cut a rectangle or a square out of the ground and then you broke it open. We looked for the aggregates and then you said, let's do a worm count.
00:57:58
Speaker
And we found four. And I was like, oh, that's great. There's some worms. And then you told me, what did you tell me? That we want to see like anywhere from 12 to 20, like 12 is the minimum. And then really we want to see 20 up to like 40 worms. 40 is like exceptional. 40 is like, you know, not to do a blue raven black brag, but that's where, you know, that's kind of where we're at a year 10. Yeah. So it's really nice to have something to look forward to when you start to do this work for a long time.
00:58:32
Speaker
That's amazing. Well, I'm in it for the long haul. I can't wait till I can find 40 worms and a spade. I was trying to count. I think one of my dahlia tubers had eight worms on it, and they were the little red ones. And I was really excited. um And I mean, a tuber is smaller than the spade, so there was probably even more in each spot.
00:58:53
Speaker
I love that. Yeah, I love that. And and you're going to see that exponential growth. ah That's what we want to see. We want to see it go from four to eight to 16. And then, you know, you're just going to have this explosion where all of a sudden you're like, I don't want to take my soil at all because I just can't. I can't without harming something. that's ah It's a it's a hard and beautiful place to be simultaneously. I know I see those worms and now I value them so much. And I'm like gently pulling them off the tubers before I wash them and putting them back in the soil.
Advice for New Farmers
00:59:26
Speaker
Jen, what would you tell a newer flower farmer or gardener who cares deeply about doing things right but feels like they don't know enough yet to get started with healing their soil?
00:59:38
Speaker
oh I would say that you're never going to know at all that around soil that we know we know maybe less than 5% of what there is Wow.
00:59:52
Speaker
Yeah. We know more about outer space than we know about the soil that we walk on and depend on for our livelihood, um which is, that's, it's wild to me. would I would say trust i would say read i would say follow your passion. um there are thousands and thousands of rabbit holes to go down. um If you want to learn, there's cool, there's really cool videos about just intro to like, if you want to understand how your plants are
01:00:30
Speaker
are interacting with soil microbiology. There's some really cool videos that Elaine Ingham put together years ago, rest in peace. She just passed a couple years ago, or excuse me, a couple of months ago. a Very, very hard news to hear as this pioneer in in doing this soil microbiology work. She she broke a lot of glass ceilings. So feel really thankful that I had the opportunity to learn from her. Um, so yeah, uh, hop on, hop on the YouTube. There's so many cool things and just, just be patient with yourself and know that it's going to take a long time to, to learn. You're never going to know, know it all. Take notes, dig holes, take photos. Um, I, I think, you know, the work that we're doing, Jen, ah where we're documenting every year, um that's something that, um, I find so valuable with all of my clients that I work with is creating what we call a transect line where we have this marker that is a place on your farm that we can revisit every year so we can pull data from that. We can count those worms in that same spot because as you start to make some progress, yeah.
01:01:48
Speaker
yeah I'm rambling because I just feel like, what what can I say? You know, I think um if you're using tillage equipment, if you're using a tiller, um tillage is is hard on the soil. So I don't want to say no, you know, don't don't use it, but maybe.
01:02:06
Speaker
work on how can you decrease one pass by every year? Can you, instead of maybe tilling at a six inch depth, can you raise that tiller up until maybe at just three inches instead? because it'll allow your soil to recover a lot faster. So there's lots of little cool little tweaks. i don't know if that answers your question, but there's a big dump there. Sorry. No, that's great. I think the big thing is for people to stay curious.
01:02:36
Speaker
And I think you can be curious just by getting your hands in the soil and digging in literally. I love that. um There are so many questions that I would love to ask you. i might have to bring you back for a part two because I only got through like half of my questions and there's so much else that we could talk about around soil health and growing.
01:02:59
Speaker
Before we say goodbye today, is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to leave our listeners with today? Let's see. i love i love the thought and care that you put into the questions today. Thank you. I've i've loved this conversation. I feel like i've had my cheeks hurt because I just have this had this permanent smile the whole time. It's been really fun. So thank you for that. ah Thank you. i would say i would say that it's just it's really important for us to remember that soil health isn't a one-size-fits-all.
01:03:36
Speaker
that there isn't a, yeah, I get asked all the time, like, what book should I read? I'm just like, I don't think it exists. It's always changing. So I love what you say about curiosity, because that's, that's really the thing that, that keeps me going. And I love that. I love that piece that the curiosity makes me so excited to do this work, because we're learning so much every, every day, every month, every year, there's something new to learn. so yeah I love it.
01:04:05
Speaker
It's good. Absolutely. Well, I know you said you have a smile on your face. I feel like I'm always smiling when you're around because you're always encouraging me to keep going. And again, going back to that, trust the process, stay the course. Did I say that correctly?
01:04:19
Speaker
i just have my, ah how it comes out of my mouth is just trust and stay the course. Trust and stay the course. Yeah. But I like that you add the process. That's good. I like that. I like that too. You've made it your own.
01:04:31
Speaker
month Thanks to you. Okay. I have started something this year where i ask a series of four quick fire questions before we wrap up the episode.
01:04:42
Speaker
ah The first one is targeted more for flower farmers and flower growers, but I know you grow a few flowers. So do you have a favorite flower to grow or work with?
The Joy of Growing Zinnias
01:04:51
Speaker
i I am obsessed with zinnias. I don't know what it is about them. I just got bit by the zinnia bug. There's, I don't know what it is. i don't know if it's the fact that the bumblebees sleep in them at night. Like I, I just love them so much. So yeah, I'm a big zinnia fan, which I know feels like a cousin to the Dahlia in some ways. There seems like there's some similarities in the way that they can look, but yeah.
01:05:17
Speaker
They, they're They're really fun right now. They're growing in popularity. There's a lot of breeding being done around them. So it's fun to see that they're no longer just like the bright reds and purples.
01:05:29
Speaker
There is just this amazing color scheme. I have some that are these pastel colors that are going to be fabulous for weddings. So they are a fun one.
Significance of Locally Grown Flowers
01:05:38
Speaker
The next question, why do local flowers matter to you?
01:05:43
Speaker
i i i mean I don't, I'm not like really well versed in the flower industry, but the little that I know is that so many flowers are grown from really, really far away. So there's a, and with a lot of chemicals and pesticides and herbicides. And so I love this, like,
01:06:03
Speaker
local, like less carbon footprint, doing things organically and here and in our region. And like, it's supporting our biodiversity, it's supporting our pollinators. So yeah, like what's not to love? Absolutely. It's just like local vegetables, but on the flower side.
01:06:21
Speaker
ah The next question I'm going to tweak a little bit because normally I ask people, what's one thing you wish more people understood about the floral industry? But for you, I'll ask, what's one thing you wish more people understood about the farming industry?
Challenges of Farming and Supporting Local Agriculture
01:06:35
Speaker
Oh, gosh, that farmers work tirelessly to do this work. And they do it with love and passion. And they're underpaid and underappreciated. and please, please, please support your local farmer, whether it's veg or flowers or meat or whatever it is. Yeah.
01:06:59
Speaker
Absolutely. I think that's so important right now as you're watching the rising costs. I keep hearing more and more stories across the headlines of farmers that are struggling just to survive with the tariffs, with the cost of rising fuel. And I think a lot of it is going to drive people back to regenerative farming. But it's a tough time for farmers right now.
01:07:20
Speaker
yeah I saw, I know we're trying to wrap things up, but I saw that for nitrogen costs have increased by 50%. So this is another like, another really beautiful piece into the soil health element that like when we have good soil health and good soil organisms that are able to do that nitrogen piece for your plants, like that's really helping your bottom line as well. I just got to say that. Absolutely. I know I, I watched some of these news reports and I'm like, I'm really grateful. I don't have to buy those chemicals for my farm.
01:07:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And then what are you most grateful for that flowers have given you beyond the blooms? i So i got bit by the flower bug last year and they it i loved sharing flowers. i didn't have I don't have a market. ah But I love making bouquets and just being able to pop one by to a neighbor or to a farmer that I'm working with. And the serendipitous moments ah where I bring a bouquet and they're like a farmer will just be like, gosh, like this is the anniversary that anniversary of a good friend's death. Like this flower, these flowers couldn't have come at a better time. Like um i I love that. And so there's that connection.
01:08:40
Speaker
That is, i love that. Like they just, flowers bring joy to people. Goodness. They do. vaner Which, you know, I'm, I just, i love that piece as well.
01:08:52
Speaker
Yes. Well, thank you. I know that besides my farm, you also consult with other flower farms. ah Even though you're a vegetable farmer, soil health is soil health. So for those listeners who are interested in connecting with you after today's episode, where can they learn more about you or connect with you?
01:09:12
Speaker
The best place would be Jen at blueravenfarm.org. That is my website. And you can read a little bit about what I offer in terms of consulting. And you can read a little bit about my history. you can see pictures of my farm. I'm not really on social media so much anymore. But if you want to do a scroll where our our original Blue Raven ah Instagram got hacked.
01:09:40
Speaker
Oh, no. Yeah. So we have a fun now we had to pivot into a funnier name. So I i apologize. The clunkiness of it is blue underscore Raven underscore farm.
01:09:55
Speaker
We used to just be a Blue Raven Farm and then somebody hacked it and they started posting like pirate ship ah jewelry. So that happens. Oh, no. Well, we will make sure we have correct links to your social media and your web website on today's show notes so that people can connect with you.
01:10:14
Speaker
And Jen, this has been so fun. Thank you for taking time. I know you consult with so many farms and have your own farm that you manage and a family that you support. thank Thank you for giving us so much of your time so graciously.
01:10:28
Speaker
And maybe there'll be a part two. Listeners who are listening, if you want to hear more, have specific questions, I'd love to hear from you. And maybe later this season, we can get Jen back on the podcast.
01:10:39
Speaker
I would love that. This was so much fun, Jen. Thank you. So much fun. And I'm going to take you up on the invite. i'm going to come see your farm. my gosh. I would love that. I would too. All right. Thanks, Jen. We'll see you hopefully later this summer again. Bye-bye. Thanks.
01:10:53
Speaker
thanks
01:10:57
Speaker
Thank you, flower friends, for joining us on another episode of the Backyard Bouquet. I hope you've enjoyed the inspiring stories and valuable gardening insights we've shared today. Whether you're cultivating your own backyard blooms or supporting your local flower farmer,
01:11:13
Speaker
You're contributing to the local flower movement, and we're so happy to have you growing with us. If you'd like to stay connected and continue this blossoming journey with local flowers, don't forget to subscribe to the Backyard Bouquet podcast. I'd be so grateful if you would take a moment to leave us a review of this episode.
01:11:32
Speaker
And finally, please share this episode with your garden friends. Until next time, keep growing, keep blooming, and remember that every bouquet starts right here in the backyard.