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Ep. 96: Growing Regenerative Cut Flowers in a Vineyard with Jocelyn Bentley-Prestwich of Cluster Flock Farms
1.9k Plays14 days ago
Jocelyn Bentley-Prestwich plants peonies, daffodils, and alliums underneath her grape vines, and she has quadrupled the value of every linear foot of her vineyard by doing it.
She runs Cluster Flock Farms and Vineyard on twenty-five acres in Husum, Washington, where she grows wine grapes for some of the best winemakers in the Columbia Gorge, raises chickens and ducks and geese, runs flower subscriptions and a flower stand on Highway 141, and books a la carte wedding florals. She is also a queer female farmer who walked into a male-dominated wine industry that did not make room for her, and refused to leave.
In this episode:
- What it looks like to be a female farmer in a male-dominated industry, and the moment Jocelyn started saying "tell me I can't and I'll show you I can"
- The regenerative companion planting strategy that increased the value of every linear foot of her vineyard by four times
- The day she stopped calling her farm Blue Elk Farms and renamed it Cluster Flock, and how naming the mess set her free
- "Side of the road mode," the lesson Jocelyn's mother taught her about letting go of what you cannot control
- What she would tell the version of herself from ten years ago who did not yet know if she belonged
If you have ever felt behind, or like you do not quite belong, or like you are barely holding it together this season, this is your episode. Share it with another farmer who needs to hear it.
Guest Bio
Jocelyn Bentley-Prestwich is the owner of Cluster Flock Farms and Vineyard in Husum, Washington. She has been stewarding twenty-five acres in the Columbia Gorge since 2014 alongside her wife Lacy. Raised by a botanist mother and an organic chemist father, Jocelyn has been in plants her entire professional life. She started in horticulture as a teenager, worked in garden design and at-risk-youth education in the San Francisco Bay Area, and made her way to the Pacific Northwest with a long list of land requirements and a dream of building something diverse and regenerative. Today she grows Tempranillo, Gewurztraminer, Muscat, and Syrah grapes for Gorge winemakers, runs flower subscriptions, an a la carte wedding florals business, and a flower stand on Highway 141. She is a queer farmer, a mother, and a self-described nerd who believes everything is connected.
Connect With Jocelyn
- Website: https://clusterflockfarms.com
- Instagram: @clusterflockflowers
For Show Notes And More Podcast Details: https://thefloweringfarmhouse.com/the-backyard-bouquet-podcast/
Sign up for our newsletter: https://thefloweringfarmhouse.myflodesk.com/backyardbouquetpodcast
Save the Date: The Dahlia Design Summit is coming September 13-18. Join the waitlist now for early-bird ticket access: https://thefloweringfarmhouse.myflodesk.com/dahliadesignsummitwaitlist
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Jocelyn Bentley Prestwich
00:00:54
Jennifer Gulizia
Welcome back to the Backyard Bouquet podcast. Today, I'm super excited because today's guest is actually local to me. Technically, we're only a few miles away as the crow flies, but because we're separated by the Columbia River that splits between Oregon and Washington, it's It takes about 30 minutes to drive to this guest's farm.
00:01:09
Jocelyn
you
00:01:15
Jennifer Gulizia
We don't usually get to sit down and chat very often, especially this time of year because our farms are so busy. So I'm excited to have a friend on the podcast that I get to chat with at depth and you get to join us for today's conversation.
00:01:28
Jennifer Gulizia
This guest is Jocelyn Bentley Prestwich and she runs Cluster Flock Farms and Vineyard in Hewsome, Washington on 25 acres that she has been stewarding since
Jocelyn's Background and Journey
00:01:41
Jennifer Gulizia
2014.
00:01:41
Jennifer Gulizia
She has been surrounded by plants her entire life. Her career started in horticulture as a teenager, and she has never looked back.
00:01:48
Jocelyn
Thank
00:01:51
Jennifer Gulizia
Today, Jocelyn grows grapes that go to the winemakers in the Columbia Gorge. She also tends a flock of chickens, ducks, and geese. She runs flower subscriptions, a flower stand on Highway 141, and also does la carte wedding florals.
00:02:09
Jennifer Gulizia
I thought Jocelyn had a really unique story to share, and I'm so grateful that she's coming on the podcast today, especially this spring, because I think for many of us, this is a really busy time of year, and you might just need to hear...
00:02:24
Jennifer Gulizia
that you are enough and i think jocelyn is the perfect one to share this message with us so jocelyn welcome to the backyard bouquet podcast i'm so grateful to have you here today
00:02:36
Jocelyn
Thanks,
The Move to Washington and Vineyard Acquisition
00:02:37
Jocelyn
Jen. I'm really excited to be here today. And as always, your introductions are very sweet.
00:02:42
Jennifer Gulizia
a thank you well i'm excited we're having this conversation i was trying to think before we hit record
00:02:44
Jocelyn
Thanks.
00:02:49
Jennifer Gulizia
when the last time we got to chat was, and it was when you saved me with my ranunculus corms because half of my order was canceled.
00:02:56
Jocelyn
That's right.
00:02:58
Jennifer Gulizia
And this is why community is so important in this industry is that I think I found out the week that my corms were supposed to be shipping that they weren't coming.
00:02:58
Jocelyn
That's right. Mm-hmm.
00:03:09
Jennifer Gulizia
And then we have a chat group with our local flower farmers And you reached out and you said, well, I've got extra corms. And so I got to drive up, see your amazing farm.
00:03:17
Jocelyn
mean Oh, my pleasure.
00:03:19
Jennifer Gulizia
And now we finally get to chat because life as a flower farmer is busy. So thanks for being here today.
00:03:28
Jocelyn
Thank you.
00:03:30
Jennifer Gulizia
So Jocelyn, before we get into talking about the grapes and the flock at the farm and your flowers and all the beautiful chaos that goes along with cluster flock, which is such a fun name, by the way, will you start by telling our listeners a little bit about who you are give us a
Vineyard Science and Farming Approach
00:03:50
Jennifer Gulizia
little bit of a background?
00:03:53
Jocelyn
Yeah. um So this is a fun one. I go way back in terms of plants. Both my parents are scientists. um Mother is a botanist and my father is a medicinal chemist or an organic chemist.
00:04:06
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh, wow.
00:04:07
Jocelyn
And so I was absolutely surrounded by science and nerdiness and spent lots of time just – um geeking out in gardens. um And ah so that was a ah big part of my childhood. But then I wound my way through life and all different places and um ended up really getting into music and gymnastics and found all these different things to be a part of.
00:04:35
Jocelyn
And it always came back to plants. And Let's see. I mean, little bit more history. I grew up in New York. Yeah.
00:04:44
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh, wow
Challenges in the Wine Industry
00:04:45
Jocelyn
yeah And I've lived in Australia and my mom did a lot of research down in Costa Rica. And so I got a chance to experience a lot of cultures and a lot of um environments. Yeah.
00:04:58
Jocelyn
in different climates and stuff and ended up making my way out West to California where I, um, ended up as a professional musician in a band and toured for a little bit. So I had all these like past lives, um, and met my wife and we got married and, um, have since moved to Washington back in 2014 to do this whole farm thing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:26
Jennifer Gulizia
Amazing. So you and your wife, Lacey, is that right?
Interplanting and Permaculture Methods
00:05:30
Jennifer Gulizia
You guys moved in 2014 to the gorge. How did you decide to leave California and come up to or or to Washington and buy 25 acres?
00:05:37
Jocelyn
Yeah. It's so close. We look we almost we look at Oregon. um Well, we had been looking for land for like six years down in California. um And I, well, we had both been in the plant world. So everything from landscaping and garden design, I had a garden design and installation company down there. And we ran a plant nursery at one point. And so we really, really wanted to do farming. And I had ah started getting more and more into agriculture, especially into um urban agriculture and trying to integrate more edibles into ornamental landscapes. And I was doing um like educational and garden coaching. And I was working with at-risk youth and formerly incarcerated people trying to get their hands into the soil um in a lot of these food deserts that were in Oakland and the surrounding Bay Area.
00:06:34
Jocelyn
And so I started falling in love more and more with agriculture.
Environmental and Historical Context of Farming
00:06:38
Jocelyn
And then we had gotten into wine because it's, you know, Napa and Sonoma. And ah we spent so much time trying to find land because we were starting to get priced out of the Bay Area.
00:06:49
Jocelyn
and I really wanted to find a place that, you know, like when I closed my eyes, I had this laundry list of of requirements like, you know, mixed oak and evergreen forest with pasture land and water on site. and Four Seasons and, you know, so this, this huge long list.
00:07:11
Jocelyn
um Ultimately we ended up manifesting it um and started looking further and further up into the Pacific Northwest. And um when we came into the gorge as a recommendation on my father, he is super into wine and recommended that we check it out. Cause he was like, it's a great location, has great wine industry.
00:07:34
Jocelyn
um we drove into the gorge and it was just like this, you know, like
The Story Behind 'Cluster Flock Farms'
00:07:39
Jocelyn
angels singing in you know, it just burst into sunlight and there were just rays of sunlight coming through and hitting the river and the mountainsides. And it was just like, all right, this feels good. That and like, you know, the more we looked around and kind of felt the the vibe of the place, we felt safe and it felt like a ah safe place to be able to raise our kids as You know, as a queer couple, we were hesitant to go too rural because we didn't want to become targets and we didn't want our children to become targets. So we know how to handle it because we're queer, but I didn't want our kids to become targets at their own school.
00:08:21
Jocelyn
And so needing a place that felt safe was a big part of it. So we found this land of rainbows and waterfalls and it felt just right. And within...
00:08:32
Jocelyn
eight months, we like stumbled ah across this property and the gentleman who um owned it before us literally built the house and the barn with his own two hands, like cut off a finger building it
00:08:49
Jennifer Gulizia
my gosh.
00:08:49
Jocelyn
At one
Creating Inclusive Farming Spaces
00:08:49
Jennifer Gulizia
gosh
00:08:49
Jocelyn
point.
00:08:50
Jocelyn
I mean, this is not our our house, but the the house that he built for his family that he raised his family in, that kind of thing. And so was like he was his blood, sweat and tears and his whole heart went into this land.
00:09:02
Jocelyn
And He had planted a vineyard as like this retirement project. And um he was a deputy sheriff of a neighboring county and realized pretty quickly in that um doing five acres of wine grapes was not a retirement project. Like that was a full-time farming job and was really trying to figure out Somebody who could take over the property with the vision that he shared. And we ended up being those people.
00:09:38
Jocelyn
um And so we all, it was very serendipitous.
00:09:42
Jennifer Gulizia
That's amazing.
00:09:42
Jocelyn
Yeah. Kismet, providence, all the words.
00:09:43
Jennifer Gulizia
when you
00:09:45
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:09:45
Jennifer Gulizia
When you say serendipitous, there must be something about the gorge. For those of you listening who have never been out here, we're situated in the National
Community and Personal Insights on Farming
00:09:53
Jennifer Gulizia
Scenic Area. It's one of the few, i think, in the United States that's left.
00:09:58
Jennifer Gulizia
And when you said you saw the rainbows, we literally, the day we found our new farm, there was a rainbow behind us as we're driving back off the driveway. And I'm like, oh, that's a sign. Like, The gorge.
00:10:09
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:10:09
Jennifer Gulizia
So I love that you had the rainbow too. It just feels like it was meant to be. um
00:10:14
Jocelyn
yeah
00:10:15
Jennifer Gulizia
And then you also, I want to share about the wine for a second too, because you mentioned the grapes. i learned this probably about 2014, about the time you came out here, because I actually worked in the tourism industry at the time.
00:10:28
Jennifer Gulizia
And the Columbia Gorge, and you can help me with this, Jocelyn, is situated. It's the Columbia Gorge. I can never pronounce the word. It starts with an A for the wine growing region that we're in.
00:10:40
Jennifer Gulizia
How do you say that?
00:10:40
Jocelyn
VA. a Yeah.
00:10:42
Jennifer Gulizia
AVA. So it's.
00:10:42
Jocelyn
we just We just say AVA. a Yeah. It's Appalachian, but it's, yeah, AVA.
00:10:44
Jennifer Gulizia
Okay.
00:10:46
Jocelyn
a
00:10:47
Jennifer Gulizia
Appalachian. So the Columbia Gorge Appalachian, but it's the Columbia Gorge AVA region, which actually parallels the same regions that grapes grow in France.
00:10:57
Jocelyn
Right. Yeah.
00:10:58
Jennifer Gulizia
So we have similar, and what that means is that our soils are very similar to the soils that you find for the grapes growing in France.
00:10:59
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:11:05
Jennifer Gulizia
so we have incredible wines coming out of the Columbia Gorge.
00:11:09
Jocelyn
Wild stuff. Yeah. um And what we have here is that we are situated between the Willamette Valley, which is Oregon, which is a much cooler and wetter region, and the Columbia Valley, which is in Washington up into Canada. um And that is a much drier and hotter region. And so we straddle those two. And for every mile that you drive in the Columbia Gorge, you lose an inch of rain per year. So you're going from temperate rainforest to high desert in this like 40 mile chunk just along the river. And I mean, with that coupled with the fact that we're on the cascade range. So you have this alluvial soil from, you know, the warring volcanoes, the brothers, Y East and Pato. So Mount Adams and Mount Hood, um, or vice versa, Mount Hood, Mount Adams. Um,
00:12:03
Jocelyn
And then you have ancient volcanoes like Underwood and you have the Missoula flood plain that came down through the Columbia River and created it And so you have this like growing region that is...
00:12:16
Jocelyn
unlike almost anything else in this world
Favorite Flowers and Personal Growth
00:12:20
Jocelyn
on that sort of 45th ish parallel. And um I'm sorry, not parallel latitude. It's the same, like like what you were saying, it's the same. um And that's just, it like, it makes my little nerd brain just explode with joy. Cause it's so cool that we have all of that just in one little tiny place. And it's, yeah. Yeah.
00:12:45
Jennifer Gulizia
I know when I worked in the tourism industry, they were really marketing at that time a world of wine within 40 miles because you leave Portland and the Columbia Gorge starts kind of in Troutdale, which is about 14, 15 miles east of Portland.
00:12:51
Jocelyn
That's right. Mm-hmm.
00:12:58
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm.
00:12:59
Jennifer Gulizia
It's where the wind begins because we're also known as the windsurfing capital of the world.
00:13:01
Jocelyn
Yep.
00:13:03
Jennifer Gulizia
And then you go out to Mary Hill area, which is about, would you say 45 minutes east of here?
00:13:03
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:13:10
Jennifer Gulizia
Probably an hour east of here.
00:13:11
Jocelyn
I would say about an hour, yeah. I mean, if you're driving along the Washington side, it's an hour.
00:13:15
Jennifer Gulizia
And-
00:13:17
Jocelyn
yeah
00:13:18
Jennifer Gulizia
Right. The Washington side, you can't drive quite as fast because it's a lot more windy, but you are on the sunny side of the Cascades.
00:13:18
Jocelyn
let
00:13:24
Jennifer Gulizia
and We sit in the shadows of the mountains over here.
00:13:24
Jocelyn
mean
00:13:27
Jennifer Gulizia
So you get a lot more sunshine over on the washington set time
00:13:28
Jocelyn
Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
00:13:31
Jennifer Gulizia
i can't talk today on the Washington side, which is probably why the grapes grow so well over on your side.
00:13:33
Jocelyn
That's it.
00:13:37
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that we can grow, you know, warm weather ah or warms warm climate grapes right next to cooler climate grapes just because of the way that we are, you know, all of our little mesoclimates exist. So you have all these like pockets and corners and slopes and um elevations. And we go from, what is it, at the Columbia River, it's like one or 200 foot elevation to, you know, 1,200 feet within, you know, a teeny tiny little bit because it's just a straight sheer cliff. And so you, yeah, it's just very cool.
00:14:14
Jennifer Gulizia
We're at 800 feet at our farm. Do you know how high up you are?
00:14:17
Jocelyn
Are you? We're 550 and feet at our farm and southfacing
00:14:25
Jennifer Gulizia
Okay, so you're actually lower in elevation than I am.
00:14:25
Jocelyn
yeah
00:14:28
Jocelyn
yeah
00:14:28
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh, that's so fascinating.
00:14:29
Jocelyn
Yeah, so you go up the hill and then go down into a little bit of a river valley and then back up because we're right along the White Salmon River, which is a really amazing river for whitewater rafting, for any whitewater rafters out there.
00:14:42
Jennifer Gulizia
It's an absolutely beautiful, incredible stretch of river that you're along. And it's unique because the Columbia River divides us. And then on the Washington side, the White Salmon River runs down through by your property. And then on my side, the Hood River runs down. So it's a beautiful geographic location.
00:15:00
Jocelyn
Mirror image.
00:15:00
Jennifer Gulizia
So... Yes. And it's funny because I can't see Mount Hood from my farm, but I can see Mount Adams. So I look straight out to like where your property is.
00:15:10
Jocelyn
And vice versa.
00:15:10
Jennifer Gulizia
um It's so funny. It's so ironic, but I love it.
00:15:13
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:15:14
Jennifer Gulizia
It's a beautiful area. So if you can't tell if you're listening, you really should come visit us out here. um So you found this place. There was someone who thought that it was going to be a retirement project. And we all know, farming is not for the faint of heart. And it's really not a retirement unless you want to keep working into retirement.
00:15:34
Jennifer Gulizia
And you said you were looking for somewhere safe. Did you feel like you found that safety in this location?
00:15:40
Jocelyn
Yes. Yeah. ah We are, you know, that we're that, what, hour and a half outside of Portland. And um things can get really scary really fast. And we would notice that, especially, you know, in certain pockets of California, you have pockets of of safety and pockets of places that did not feel safe. Yeah.
00:16:02
Jocelyn
um And so when we came here, um you kind of get as, you know, I'm 44. And so coming up in the 80s and 90s and being out as a queer teen, um you get really, really good at gauging the safety level of a location and how on guard you need to be.
00:16:24
Jocelyn
And so when and so Part of when we would go and visit locations was to just do that vibe check. And, you know, Lacey I would just be like, all right, how do you feel about this place? Do you feel like we could be here? And, you know, do you like how it feels beyond just like, do we like the school system? Do we like this? What is the property, do you know, property costs and all that?
00:16:46
Jocelyn
um And this place really had that. And so even though we were like literally buying a property off a deputy sheriff from a rural county um who went to church every Sunday,
00:17:06
Jocelyn
he didn't blink twice and we like, we felt safe enough to be able to ask him. And that in and of itself is very unusual. And he was just sort of a ah kind of live and let people live type of guy. And I feel like,
00:17:24
Jocelyn
Because he was former law enforcement and like an older white guy in this region, um that felt pretty good.
00:17:35
Jocelyn
And I think like both both of us, both Lacey and I were just like, yeah, this this is good. This is all right. You know, there weren't a whole lot of representation, but it didn't feel like we were going to get chased out with pitchforks.
00:17:48
Jocelyn
Or hurt, right? Or it didn't feel like, you know, like our kid was going to be hurt. So, yeah.
00:17:55
Jennifer Gulizia
So you, let's see here. I think that not only being queer and trying to find acceptance in a new community that you're not familiar with, but you're also a female farmer entering agriculture can also be intimidating in of itself.
00:18:07
Jocelyn
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:10
Jennifer Gulizia
So where someone like myself being a female, I've got one thing that makes me nervous, but you had two things you were juggling trying to protect your family You felt safe. Did you feel like the community has welcomed you in? Because one thing I have noticed is that you talk openly about being queer and accepting others and you make it fun. Like it's not something that's, a it doesn't feel like it's a side part. It's part of who you and your farm are.
00:18:38
Jocelyn
Yes.
00:18:38
Jennifer Gulizia
Would you, would you agree?
00:18:39
Jocelyn
and Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, I'm not shy about it. I don't think that I need to hide and I've never tried to hide that. I just, I think that's just part of my special neurodivergence. I can't, I just cannot be anything but this. And, um, I've learned humor and just making it easy and upfront probably being like the most or the safest way, at least for me, um, to exist has been what works.
00:19:13
Jocelyn
Um, Coming here, though, and going into viticulture, um i was not as as as familiar with like plants and design and horticulture and agriculture of like market gardens and stuff. I was not familiar with viticulture. And so I went to i did the the viticulture course at the at WSU, and like I absolutely went deep dive, full-on hyperfocus into...
00:19:43
Jocelyn
um into grapes and growing grapes. And, you know, honestly, grapes are one of the easiest crops to grow. So it wasn't, it wasn't like too overwhelming. It was overwhelming just like making sure I got it right.
00:19:59
Jocelyn
Um, but in reality it's, um, shown me because grapes are essentially like weeds, they don't die or it's really hard to kill them. Um, that you can mess up pretty badly and they'll be fine, you know?
00:20:13
Jocelyn
So, yeah, Okay, going back to like queer and female. And anyway, so I went into this viticulture and I went into the wine industry and I am, you know, really educated in um and familiar with plants and that style of stuff. But...
00:20:33
Jocelyn
The farming world, especially in commodity farms and in in vineyards, are is very male dominated. And it was especially more so, um you know, 12 years ago.
00:20:42
Jennifer Gulizia
Mm-hmm.
00:20:47
Jocelyn
And so coming in here, it was breaking into a good old boys club. That was really difficult. And i was literally, cause I'm a short person, I was literally looked over and like talked over. And so if I, you know, when I have anything to say, it was just sort of like, um, I was just kind of ignored or pushed off to the side or just, you know, or, or yeah.
00:21:13
Jocelyn
And it didn't feel very good. um But I could run circles around them with a lot of other things. And I feel like they would end up looking at me like I was just the help. um And I did. I do work in the service industry for the wine industry. um But it was just interesting trying to...
00:21:39
Jocelyn
balance being new to the area, being a female farmer, um and trying to break into, you know, like an industry that I wasn't quite as familiar with, but I was still able to hold my own.
00:21:57
Jennifer Gulizia
Did you ever feel like you didn't belong in the wine industry? Did they the male players or the the the old timers? I mean, there's people that have been growing grapes for quite a while around here.
00:22:08
Jennifer Gulizia
Did it ever make you feel like maybe I don't belong in this role?
00:22:11
Jocelyn
Yes. Yes. Yeah, and there was several times where it got really difficult and I felt like I, like, what am I even doing? um Why am I bothering? If I can't do it all by myself, then I, um you know, then that just proves that I can't do something like this. And um that was a really hard lesson to learn. And I mean, I've, i've being in, because I did the garden design and installation,
00:22:43
Jocelyn
And I would get a lot of times, oh my gosh, you're a girl. And like, I'd be out there with like a hammer and I'd be working with saws and I'd be building stuff and moving rocks and, you know, doing all of this stuff and, and or like manhandling equipment.
00:23:00
Jocelyn
And I would get the, oh, you're good for a girl kind of thing. Or i would have a lot of, I would struggle a lot with um people not seeing me as a, um yeah what do you call, not like the boss, right?
00:23:16
Jocelyn
And so if there was a if there was a dude, if I was standing next to a guy, they would talk to the guy as if he was the owner of the company And he would have to like point to me and be like this, this talk to her.
00:23:29
Jocelyn
um And so there was a lot of that.
00:23:30
Jennifer Gulizia
Yeah. yaan
00:23:32
Jocelyn
And so i it's not unusual. And coming up here, it wasn't unusual, but I was really just kind of like doing it by myself. And it was a big struggle and it was very hard um to ask for help um because I'm such an independent person. And if I get, you know, if I, if somebody thinks I can't do something, especially if it's, if it's somebody who thinks it's because I'm female
00:24:03
Jocelyn
and that you just need to do lady things, then I get really, like, aggressive about, like, wanting to be able to do it. Like, tell me I can't do it, and I will show you that I can.
00:24:16
Jocelyn
um And not only that, I will do it all by myself. So, yeah.
00:24:21
Jennifer Gulizia
So when you felt those maybe I don't belong feelings versus it making you step away and say, maybe I shouldn't do this, it almost sounds like it made you say, well, I'm going to prove to everyone that I can do this.
00:24:25
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm.
00:24:33
Jennifer Gulizia
Is that right?
00:24:34
Jocelyn
Yeah, yeah. I would get the I don't belong, but then I would say F'em. Bleepity bleep. deep bleep I'll show you.
00:24:43
Jennifer Gulizia
It is interesting because even with my farm, I'll meet like a contractor or someone and then they'll be like, well, where's your husband? And I go, well, he's at work. And they go, well, but doesn't he need to make the decision? And it's like, the flowering farmhouse is my farm.
00:25:03
Jennifer Gulizia
He has a job outside of the farm. Hopefully someday he'll help me. And I mean, he does help on the farm, but like I'm the one that makes a lot of the decisions for the farm.
00:25:09
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:25:11
Jennifer Gulizia
I don't, he doesn't have to be there for me to make the decision, but I think it's just that good old boys mentality.
00:25:14
Jocelyn
Correct, yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:25:17
Jennifer Gulizia
And from any males listening to this podcast, there's no, I'm not trying to shame anyone.
00:25:17
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm.
00:25:22
Jennifer Gulizia
I think it's just the reality for some of us females. And I think that's why like the United Nations has called 2026 the year of the international female farmer to bring awareness that there are females in agriculture that are doing amazing things.
00:25:37
Jocelyn
fight.
00:25:39
Jennifer Gulizia
And I know we've been talking a lot about wine. That's not the only thing you do on your farm. And i one thing that really stood out to me when you gave me a tour of your farm is I think at the time, because it was you had all the bulbs, I mean, you had crates and crates of bulbs outside of your front of your house.
00:25:58
Jennifer Gulizia
You grow grapes, but what talk to us about how you interplant your flowers with your grapes. I thought that was really cool.
00:26:06
Jocelyn
Yeah. um ah So grapes, just as a side note, grapes are a feast or famine, right? you You harvest them once a year and then the rest of the time they're either doing nothing because they're dormant or they're growing. um But with flowers, you're able to, um you have multiple seasons in which you can grow and harvest flowers. And so there's um there is so much potential and a large part of what I like to try and do is, you know, stacking functions and doing like a little bit of like that permaculture companion planting, like weaving all of those regenerative practices together. So you have like, if you think about ah a guild, you usually have like your tree or your perennial fruit bearing plant. And then you're planting underneath it, you're planting a number of other things that will all help each other. Like they're all linked somehow and everything. It's very, you know, like avatar movie.
00:27:09
Jocelyn
everything's connected. um All the roots are talking to each other. um All of the microbes are talking to each other. So the more diversity that you have, the the more the happier the soil tends to be, right? And so I thought, okay, well, I already have stopped using, you know, well,
00:27:32
Jocelyn
I have 99% stopped using any um chemical application. So I'm not certified organic because it just it's just too expensive. And if an emergency were to happen and I needed to rescue something, I need to be able to to use something a little stronger that I might not want to.
00:27:51
Jocelyn
um But for the most part, I had um really just gotten everything in the vineyard to to a really beautiful spot where I didn't have to use too much um ah fungicide spray. i didn't really have to use too many fertilizers. I didn't have to mess around with the pH or, you know, the, all of that. and and I figured while I'm managing underneath the vines anyway, I might as well plant, um,
00:28:26
Jocelyn
plant flowers and plant things that will help each other that will require the same inputs that the grapes require and the same, more or less the same amount of water that the grapes want.
00:28:40
Jocelyn
And, um and we'll have, you know, different flowering times that will not interfere with the, the fruiting of the grapes, the harvest and the fruiting of the grapes. And so,
00:28:54
Jocelyn
um Instead of just keeping the weeds managed, ah I started putting in things like peonies and daffodils and um iris, the um the bearded eye, the German bearded iris, and um shorter alliums and sedum and Japanese anemones
00:29:19
Jocelyn
I think that's it for now. I think that's so far. So i'm I'm trialing different things to see what does best with them. um And ah each one of these things will grow just tall enough that it like caps out at where the grapes would hang down so they wouldn't interfere with each other.
00:29:38
Jocelyn
And um they have the same kind of requirements for water. And, um you know, when I do foliar spray um for foliar feeding, they all get benefit. Like it's all a benefit. And for something like daffodils, they're they're blooming and growing way before the grapes have even started i pushing a bud.
00:30:00
Jocelyn
And so I'm able to um increase the value of each linear foot by over four times. um i'm Like financial, like the the monetary value, but also the, um and just the companion planting value. Like the the biological value has increased dramatically as well.
00:30:23
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:30:23
Jennifer Gulizia
That's amazing. So it's what you're doing to help paint a picture for our listeners is you grow grapes in rows and they're trellised.
00:30:33
Jennifer Gulizia
And in between each of the posts where the vines are growing up, underneath that you have flowers planted.
00:30:33
Jocelyn
Yep.
00:30:40
Jennifer Gulizia
So for example, daffodils that you were just talking about, they're literally underneath where normally you probably have to worry about keeping weeded or mowed. Instead, you are planting flowers there.
00:30:49
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:30:51
Jocelyn
Yep. Yep. And so they cover the soil. We can harvest off of them. They encourage, you know, the wildlife. um Not that grapes need pollinators, but it's nice to have a whole slew of insects to kind of keep everything, you know, balanced.
00:31:11
Jocelyn
Yeah, but that's exactly what it is. It's about a foot wide. So these beds are only about a foot wide going underneath the vines following the lines of the grapes. So, yeah.
00:31:23
Jennifer Gulizia
That's so clever. I haven't seen anyone else doing that. Was that something that you thought of on your own or did you see someone else doing that?
00:31:30
Jocelyn
I thought of it on my own, but I'm sure that, I mean, something, you know, with, okay, so with biodynamic, when you do biodynamic vineyards, they have like a whole list of plants they want you to plant, like, um, like this gray juncus grass or something. So it's, it's the same idea,
00:31:49
Jocelyn
but um it's not providing anything but, um, sort of ground coverage, I think. And then maybe something else like, uh, holding, um, holding the soil in place and retaining water and that kind of thing, you know? So, um, and we can get away with it here because we don't need to like do a whole lot of,
00:32:13
Jocelyn
ah Like, I don't need to put rocks to make it heart hotter or I don't need to do, like, i can I can play with it because we've got so much flexibility here in the gorge.
00:32:26
Jennifer Gulizia
Amazing. And then at the end of your rose, you also plant something there.
00:32:26
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:32:30
Jennifer Gulizia
Is that correct?
00:32:31
Jocelyn
Yeah, roses. Yeah.
00:32:32
Jennifer Gulizia
And why do you put roses on the end of your rose?
00:32:36
Jocelyn
Roses um are like a canary in a coal mine. um So this is ah an old, old practice. And Europe somewhere, and I'm i'm blanking on where it's most commonly done, but um roses will tend to get diseases long before grapes get diseases, and especially something like powdery mildew. Though... It might be a slightly different species of powdery mildew or something, um but they usually will tell you there are stressors, there are environmental stressors that make a plant weak.
00:33:08
Jocelyn
um And so they'll show the struggle before the grapes show the struggle. um And roses are also a great place for the, there's like a little wasp, a little predatory wasp that will overwinter or there they lay their eggs. I mean, I don't have, I don't remember completely, but they're they're great for a little home for predatory wasps um that attack like soft body insects and stuff.
00:33:39
Jennifer Gulizia
Amazing. So it's like a parasitic wasp.
00:33:41
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm.
00:33:42
Jennifer Gulizia
Am I saying that right?
00:33:43
Jocelyn
A little parasitic loss. Yeah.
00:33:44
Jennifer Gulizia
Okay. Amazing.
00:33:45
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:33:45
Jennifer Gulizia
And then I'm curious, and we didn't talk about this beforehand, so I'm just throwing this out there. Do you test the Brix levels on your grapes?
00:33:56
Jocelyn
On the grapes, yes. On the leaves, I have not yet, though I'm really fascinated too. So the grapes, yeah, the bricks is like a huge um benchmark in terms of like how ripe they are, when they're ready to be harvested, when a wine winemaker wants them harvested. So they'll be like, well, we want it between 24 and 26 bricks um before we can harvest. we'll think that We think that'll be in like two weeks. So we'll set the date for that.
00:34:24
Jocelyn
um because Brix is directly related to how much alcohol is in a wine.
00:34:30
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh.
00:34:31
Jocelyn
um So yeah, because when Brix is sugar, um and it's just a measurement of sugar um in the fruit, and Brix is a really important measurement in wine because of that, because when you're introducing the yeast, the yeast eats the sugar and poops out alcohol, which is how you get alcohol.
00:34:52
Jocelyn
Um, it's not very pretty, but that's essentially how it works. And then, so yeah, it, it really, and then, so however much bricks you have will be how much alcohol you have.
00:35:04
Jocelyn
I mean, there's a formula, um, there's a conversion formula, but yeah, that'll, that'll dictate that. But when it comes to bricks, like in the plants, that's a really fascinating thing that I really want to delve more into, like for my own ah personal research because there's like these ideal bricks levels and they change from plant to plant, you know, and when a plant has its ideal bricks levels and that's within the plant, not just within within a fruit, it is more resistant to certain pests.
00:35:36
Jocelyn
um So I think that's a really fascinating topic that I don't know about yet.
00:35:41
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes. Well, I i spray molasses, Hybrics molasses, at my farm. Do you spray that? You don't. Okay.
00:35:51
Jocelyn
Not yet. I should, though.
00:35:53
Jennifer Gulizia
And because with our field this last year, we had a fallow field when we started out.
00:35:53
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:35:58
Jennifer Gulizia
And so it used to be a hay field. I saw more crickets and grasshoppers than I've ever seen in my life. But I didn't lose any dahlias to them last year. And i really and i i need to measure the Brix levels this year. I've got the Brix levels.
00:36:13
Jennifer Gulizia
I forget what it's actually called, but it's like a bricks meter that you can test the leaves.
00:36:16
Jocelyn
The refractometer. Yeah.
00:36:17
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes. Thank you. I have a refractometer somewhere. It's probably in the well house at the farm. ah But I noticed that where by spraying the molasses regularly, they did not eat my plants.
00:36:30
Jennifer Gulizia
I would see them sitting on the plants and I could see a few nibbles on a couple of leaves. but they did not damage my dahlias. And so I was curious if there was like a correlation with your wine grapes.
00:36:37
Jocelyn
That's interesting.
00:36:40
Jennifer Gulizia
So you'll have to report back and let us know. um
00:36:43
Jocelyn
Yeah, yeah. ah Certain insects have a certain preference for, you know, like higher or lower bricks. um And i feel like locusts and grasshoppers prefer it slightly higher, but if you're in an ideal range, that makes the plant a lot more resilient to that kind of stuff or less appetizing.
00:37:05
Jennifer Gulizia
Yeah, because I know i forget the exact numbers. It was Jenny Love on the No-Till Flower Farming Podcast did a great episode on the bricks levels years ago.
00:37:11
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:37:14
Jennifer Gulizia
And i mean as soon as I listened to that, I was like, okay, I'm trying this out.
00:37:14
Jocelyn
24 26 in the
00:37:18
Jennifer Gulizia
um But I was curious because I haven't really spoken with anyone that is a wine grower that measures the bricks in the way that it's being applied to flowers.
00:37:23
Jocelyn
grapes.
00:37:28
Jennifer Gulizia
But if you 22, you said level, do you
00:37:32
Jocelyn
ah twenty twenty four to twenty six in the grapes
00:37:36
Jennifer Gulizia
in the grapes.
00:37:37
Jocelyn
Which is extremely sweet, like really, really sweet. Like if you have a regular grape in the grocery store, just a table grape, those are like 13 to 16.
00:37:48
Jennifer Gulizia
Okay.
00:37:48
Jocelyn
they're They're a lot more tart. Yeah. So wine grapes are extremely sweet. So I think there's like a, don't know. yeah When it comes to leaves versus fruit, I don't really know a whole lot about that, but it is fascinating.
00:38:05
Jennifer Gulizia
I'll be curious to know if the leaves have the same Brooks numbers or if they're different...
00:38:08
Jocelyn
Oh, okay.
00:38:11
Jennifer Gulizia
um
00:38:11
Jocelyn
And do you just crush the leaves and then look through a refractometer on them? Or do what do you do for that?
00:38:16
Jennifer Gulizia
I am not the expert. I have yet to do it.
00:38:18
Jocelyn
Okay.
00:38:18
Jennifer Gulizia
So I need to learn how to do that. Maybe we can ah get together this summer and do that and then report back to everyone because I would like to know how to read them because it would be interesting to know like at what point do the spider mites start leaving the plants alone and at what point do the grasshoppers or the earwigs or does it even impact earwigs because earwigs is a terrible one for dahlias around here.
00:38:22
Jocelyn
That would be fun.
00:38:40
Jocelyn
and as I don't know if earwigs even care if they're covered in pixie stick dust. I think they don't.
00:38:48
Jennifer Gulizia
ah perfect
00:38:48
Jocelyn
Like, they are in the grapes. We joke. in the industry that that's the legs and body.
00:38:54
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh, really?
00:38:54
Jocelyn
Um, because sometimes earwigs happen like inside. And so you're, you're picking clusters and they're just, you know, nestled up in the clusters. And obviously you don't want to have a whole lot of earwigs, but they happen.
00:39:08
Jocelyn
And so they're just the legs of the body of the wine.
00:39:13
Jennifer Gulizia
go I don't drink alcohol, but um i don't if I did, I i would be like, so I've got a coffee here as we're talking, but I'd be like looking at, I'm just picturing the legs on the cup now being those earwigs.
00:39:23
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:39:26
Jennifer Gulizia
So earwigs don't discriminate.
00:39:26
Jocelyn
Yeah. left
00:39:29
Jennifer Gulizia
They like grapes and they like dahlias apparently or any other part.
00:39:31
Jocelyn
Us, yeah. Yeah, if they have a nice dark location that they can nestle up into, they will do it.
00:39:38
Jennifer Gulizia
They're doing so much damage already on my dahlia leaves.
00:39:38
Jocelyn
Yeah. And
00:39:41
Jennifer Gulizia
I left some dahlias in the ground ah in our backyard because I was not planning.
00:39:41
Jocelyn
I'm sorry. Mm-hmm.
00:39:47
Jennifer Gulizia
I was going redo something else with the bed. And they're about ready to bloom. And it's May, which is wild around here. But they are eaten to shreds by the earwigs.
00:39:57
Jocelyn
but Dang it.
00:39:58
Jennifer Gulizia
So.
00:39:58
Jocelyn
ah um I don't know. Okay. Are you familiar with the movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
00:40:05
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh, yes.
00:40:06
Jocelyn
Okay.
00:40:06
Jennifer Gulizia
That's a great one.
00:40:06
Jocelyn
So you know how the father uses Windex for everything?
00:40:10
Jennifer Gulizia
ah
00:40:10
Jocelyn
but He just like, if you have a rash, you use Windex. If you have a headache, you use Windex. I realized that I like to use foliar calcium for everything, that my solution to everything is to just spray it with a calcium spray.
00:40:20
Jennifer Gulizia
ah
00:40:27
Jocelyn
And um because in my experience, most plants do not have enough calcium, even if you are amending with a ridiculous amount of lime or gypsum or what Or whatever you use, because i think in that Jenny, in another Jenny Love was like, she was talking to a soil scientist or somebody who was saying that the calcium molecules are so much bigger and harder for a plant to take up um and get it all the way up into the leaves.
00:40:44
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes.
00:40:49
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes.
00:40:59
Jocelyn
So even, it and and that there's like no such thing as an overdose of calcium, right? And so i basically just started spraying everything with calcium more frequently as a foliar thing and doing the K&F eggshell and vinegar thing um that she was talking about. And it seems to work beautifully. Like it helps with... um fungal issues. So if you have, you know, blooms of botrytis or blooms of sour rot, which happens on grapes or or powdery mildew, which is a big problem with grapes, calcium will shore up the the cell walls and it goes directly onto the leaves. So it gets directly um processed into the plant.
00:41:49
Jocelyn
And so I find that like a very, i don't know. So I spray it on like the father in my big fat Greek wedding, just Windex everything.
00:41:59
Jennifer Gulizia
I love that.
00:41:59
Jocelyn
Calcium everything.
00:42:01
Jennifer Gulizia
So in my foliar spray, i i use hybrix molasses, but I also use calcium. ah Because of Jenny's episode that she talked about with the soil agronomist, and I actually had this conversation with my agronomist, Jen Aaron, who was on episode...
00:42:06
Jocelyn
Okay.
00:42:11
Jocelyn
Okay.
00:42:15
Jocelyn
That was a great episode. I went and I dug up a a shovel full to count how many eat worms.
00:42:17
Jennifer Gulizia
yeah
00:42:20
Jocelyn
Not 40, but there were a lot.
00:42:21
Jennifer Gulizia
And how many...
00:42:22
Jocelyn
but
00:42:23
Jennifer Gulizia
Well, that's great. Better than my four.
00:42:24
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:42:27
Jennifer Gulizia
um Jen and I talked about the calcium at my farm, and she was on episode 95, if you want to go back and listen to that one. But my soil tests came back really low for calcium. But my plants did really well last year, and I have a feeling it's because I was constantly spraying them for calcium because in the gorge, going back to where the windsurfing capital of the United States We're called the windsurfing capital because it's windy here.
00:42:51
Jennifer Gulizia
So I thought, i I heard Jenny Love talk about how it strengthens the stem.
00:42:51
Jocelyn
Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:56
Jennifer Gulizia
So I was like, well, I'm going to experiment. How strong can I get my stems? And I mean, I literally can take my Dahlia stems and I can shake them and they don't wobble because they have probably so much calcium in them.
00:43:08
Jennifer Gulizia
But I also wonder now that you're saying that if that's why I had a lower bug pressure last year
00:43:14
Jocelyn
I think so. I'm convinced, you know, just, yes.
00:43:15
Jennifer Gulizia
in
00:43:18
Jennifer Gulizia
I also had very little powdery mildew last year, which I heard from so many people that it was terrible. And I was like looking at my field. And I mean, I've had years where I've wanted to cut everything down because the powdery mildew was so bad.
00:43:30
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:43:30
Jennifer Gulizia
But last year, i just chalked it up to being a fluke that it was a new farm and the gods or whatever you want to believe were giving me some graces that first year because I've heard that the second year on a new land is much harder than the first.
00:43:45
Jocelyn
Yeah, well, you're learning because you you know just enough and then all of a sudden you you have too much confidence and then the second year puts you in your place. but
00:43:53
Jennifer Gulizia
I'm definitely feeling in my place.
00:43:54
Jocelyn
i would I'd be curious, like, with the bricks thing and to have, like, a patch that you could maybe sacrifice or at least, you know, and not calcium spray those and have to see side-by-side, you know.
00:44:10
Jennifer Gulizia
That's a really good idea. i have a bunch of extra Dahlia tubers of like the Cornell's and Cornell bronze and Ivanetti's.
00:44:15
Jocelyn
and
00:44:16
Jennifer Gulizia
Maybe I should do ah a second row and test that out.
00:44:20
Jocelyn
Have them be the the control group.
00:44:23
Jennifer Gulizia
Yeah.
00:44:23
Jocelyn
That would be fun.
00:44:23
Jennifer Gulizia
That sounds like it'd be a really good ASCFG grant for someone to try.
00:44:28
Jocelyn
Yes. Yeah, and then you can do calcium. You would have one with calcium, one with the the bricks, one with both, one with nothing, and just see.
00:44:40
Jocelyn
Oh, that would be very interesting.
00:44:43
Jennifer Gulizia
don't think it's in my bandwidth, but maybe someone who's listening is going to go, oh, I can do that this year and will reach out to us and say, I'm going to do that.
00:44:44
Jocelyn
I know.
00:44:50
Jocelyn
We could both be fascinated and then be like, whew, that's a lot of record keeping.
00:44:51
Jennifer Gulizia
because
00:44:55
Jennifer Gulizia
It does sound like a lot of record keeping. And my brain, I don't know that could process that this year. Um, let's see here. Sorry, I diverged there.
00:45:07
Jennifer Gulizia
I get really excited about soil health and the calcium and the bricks.
00:45:11
Jocelyn
Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:12
Jennifer Gulizia
And I i love that you are working. I mean, it's agriculture, both things you're doing, but you've got this blend of flowers and grapes and animals. So, okay. I told a few friends that you were coming on the show and they're like, oh my gosh, that is the best name for a farm.
00:45:32
Jennifer Gulizia
How did you come up with the name Clusterflock?
00:45:35
Jocelyn
um Because I couldn't use the other one. no a ah Well, it was a few things. Like ive I ran this farm for a long time as Blue Elk Farms, but it was always just a working name.
00:45:48
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh.
00:45:50
Jocelyn
And like neither my wife or I liked it. We just kind of like, we're like, well, what would we name a farm? We had asked the previous owner what he would have named it. And he's like, I don't know, something with elk in it.
00:46:01
Jocelyn
And so were like, okay, well, let's see. um And we sat on that for years and it never went anywhere. And then I think, what was it, like four or five years ago, um it was it was there was like this kind of burst of activity and I was like, this is just an absolute clusterfuck.
00:46:23
Jocelyn
bleep, right? And it from that moment on, I was like, no way. We have grapes, which are clusters.
00:46:32
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh,
00:46:32
Jocelyn
We have animals, which is a flock. We can do cluster flock and it would be on like on the nose all across the board because that's what this place feels like all the time with, you know, like I have feral children. They run the place. It's a hot mess all the time because all farms are. um i you know, like unless you're Martha Stewart and have, you know, 40 people who can tend to an estate, know,
00:47:00
Jocelyn
Um, there are farm piles everywhere. Um, projects are going on yeah Everything's a hot mess. but
00:47:09
Jennifer Gulizia
you
00:47:09
Jocelyn
And so, and it gets overwhelming. um but I think being able to just acknowledge it and stop trying to pretend that this is something prettier than it is. It's beautiful, but it's still an absolute mess. It's a hot mess. And so cluster flock became the go-to. And once,
00:47:30
Jocelyn
Once that came out, it just, it, everything fell into place and, um, you know, it felt right. And I think that's what we were just waiting for. It just took us, I don't know, what is that? Eight, eight years to just finally have that fit.
00:47:48
Jocelyn
Um, and, and to run with it. And so, yeah, and we have the, um, we've had rotational, pasture animals from neighbors coming through. We've had goats.
00:47:59
Jocelyn
Um, I have a dream of having a little mini flock of, uh, village and Shetland sheep that can be rotated through and do the rotational grazing, because that's a huge thing when it comes to like the soil health is to have grazing animals, um, you know, pulling on the grasses, um, because it strengthens their roots.
00:48:20
Jennifer Gulizia
Mm-hmm.
00:48:22
Jocelyn
And then we have Indian runner ducks, um, And they use Indian runner runner ducks in like South African um vineyards for pest control and just general cuteness. And we have geese to help protect, quote unquote, the Indian runner ducks. And they're just loud and adorable.
00:48:43
Jocelyn
And then, you know, chickens that just do their thing. So, yeah.
00:48:48
Jennifer Gulizia
Amazing.
00:48:48
Jocelyn
The whole fox.
00:48:48
Jennifer Gulizia
Well, I love that you said it took you a while to get the name. i think a lot of people who listen to this show are newer in their journey, and there's a lot of newer flower farmers, especially I think as more people are turning to putting their hands in the land and people are realizing, oh, I can make a career or I can do a side hustle as being a farmer and selling my flowers.
00:48:53
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm.
00:48:57
Jocelyn
Yes.
00:49:12
Jennifer Gulizia
But I'm hearing from a lot of people that it's overwhelming and it's a lot right now. And I love that your name just embraces that. And it's kind of like you had this realization that like, this is who we are and I'm going to claim it and I'm going to own it.
00:49:27
Jennifer Gulizia
And I'm going to own it with pride and excitement. And you just make it fun. And everything you do, like, I mean, your your videos online are fun and you embrace it.
00:49:40
Jennifer Gulizia
I think it's just, and i I guess it's just who you are. Is that
00:49:45
Jocelyn
Yeah. Yeah, it's um it's that it's going back to the whole, I cannot be anybody but myself. And as much as I try to be more professional or be prettier, I'm like not a pretty girl. And, you know, like I don't do a lot of that, you know, I do love to perform, but when it comes down to it, um I just, I don't fit into that mold very well. And so as much as I might try to, it never worked.
00:50:20
Jocelyn
And so i think coming Especially coming into perimenopause and as I get older, i'm just like, you know, screw it. This is who I've always been and um there's something about that that is wonderful and entertaining and special.
00:50:38
Jocelyn
And I can still be taken seriously as, you know, like a um somebody in my field that is familiar with stuff. Yeah.
00:50:49
Jennifer Gulizia
Well, I think you're just showing up as your authentic self. And I think that's so important for all of us. I think there kind of gets to be this persona that you see out there.
00:51:00
Jennifer Gulizia
Like you think of a flower farmer and you just have a vision in your mind. And I think that sometimes we try and fit in this box and that's what kind of becomes overwhelming.
00:51:07
Jocelyn
Oh. yes
00:51:10
Jennifer Gulizia
I was looking on Facebook the other day and I saw all of these comments where people felt like they weren't enough or they were falling behind. And then it was this other person which I'm in, oh, me too. Or I've got piles of laundry here.
00:51:22
Jennifer Gulizia
And it's like, I live out of laundry baskets. I've got my clean in and my dirty. husband's going to put those away? I'm like, I'm too tired. Maybe in June or maybe maybe maybe in October I'll put those away, but I at least have some clean clothes to put on.
00:51:31
Jocelyn
so
00:51:36
Jennifer Gulizia
or
00:51:37
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:51:37
Jennifer Gulizia
It's like, what's for dinner?
00:51:38
Jocelyn
Maybe you could put them away, honey. but
00:51:41
Jennifer Gulizia
He's actually really good at helping with that stuff, and I'm really lucky.
00:51:43
Jocelyn
That's good.
00:51:44
Jennifer Gulizia
um But he's he's working a job, and we have 20 acres.
00:51:44
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:51:47
Jennifer Gulizia
So he literally, on his days off, is mowing 20 acres of fields that we want to go regenerative.
00:51:48
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:51:55
Jennifer Gulizia
But right now, we have such heavy weed pressure that we have to keep the mowed to keep the weeds from going to seed.
00:51:56
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:52:01
Jennifer Gulizia
But it's a full weekend job just to mow like half the field. And it's so uneven and bumpy that it takes forever.
00:52:06
Jocelyn
yet
00:52:08
Jennifer Gulizia
So we're all juggling a lot this time of year. But I think that when you when you give yourself permission to not have to fit that mold, it seems like you're very joyful.
00:52:13
Jocelyn
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:52:16
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm.
00:52:21
Jennifer Gulizia
You're at peace. You're calm amidst that clusterflock.
00:52:25
Jocelyn
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because it is. you're You're giving yourself permission to not be perfect. And theyre ah like I can let things go um like you wouldn't believe. you know If something doesn't go right, um then it doesn't go right. And I can't i can't control it. And that was you know something, a lesson my mother said. it's like, you can't If it is out of your control, it's out of your control. And no amount of getting upset about it is going to change that. So you might as well do what she would call side of the road mode.
00:52:59
Jocelyn
You know, if the car breaks down, you can't do anything but wait. So just wait. um And that's kind of, yeah. So that that allowed me in a lot of ways to just let go of that perfection.
00:53:14
Jennifer Gulizia
Have you always had that mindset or was it something you had to learn?
00:53:19
Jocelyn
um I think it just gets hammered into me every year as, you know, multiple reminders. And, um you know, like I had these dreams, especially first moving here um of like all this magic, magical stuff that I would be able to do um quickly because in the city you're dealing with much smaller pieces of land. And so you could go in and like get something done and it would,
00:53:47
Jocelyn
change the entire like place within a week or two weeks. And so I'm moving up here with 25 acres and I'm like, we're going to do this and we're going to do this and we're building this. And I have like all all these major plans of all this, like diversified farming that is going to be magical. And, you know, over this one year, we'll get all this done this year. We'll get all this. And, uh, Nope. Uh, like I was just given a whole lot of humble pie,
00:54:14
Jocelyn
um over and over and over again. and um you know, and so it got to the point, especially, you know, because it costs a lot of money to to build farms and stuff like that. So it got to the point where it was like, all right, I have to take this at a much slower pace than I ever wanted to do. And there are going to be more failures and I'm going to kill more stuff and more stuff is going to die than I ever thought possible.
00:54:38
Jocelyn
Um, and i just have to let it go. Um, and you know, the first several years, it's very difficult to do that. It's like the first, like, you know, the first chicken that dies, you're, you're like, what did I do wrong? And then, you know, after five years, you're like, well, that's what chickens do. They die, you know? And so there's only so much that you have control over as an individual.
00:55:05
Jocelyn
And there's only so many things you can do. And, sometimes it hits the fan and you can't do anything about it. Yeah.
00:55:15
Jennifer Gulizia
Totally. ah Just this week, I've killed four seed trays.
00:55:20
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:55:20
Jennifer Gulizia
And I mean, i probably would have cried about that in my first year, my second year.
00:55:27
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:55:27
Jennifer Gulizia
And now it's like, okay, well, lesson learned. I shouldn't have ordered that many plug trays. i ordered All of my stock that I ordered, it's well it it hasn't died, but it's it's blooming at 10 inches tall in the seed trays because –
00:55:34
Jocelyn
wow
00:55:40
Jocelyn
Oh no.
00:55:40
Jennifer Gulizia
I didn't get them planted in time. And then i under my grow lights, I have a tray of hot biscuits, amaranth.
00:55:42
Jocelyn
Yep.
00:55:48
Jennifer Gulizia
And i i didn't I forgot to make myself a note to water this week.
00:55:52
Jocelyn
oh no
00:55:53
Jennifer Gulizia
And I swear they looked fine the day before. i probably looked at them five days before based on how they looked.
00:55:57
Jocelyn
v
00:55:58
Jennifer Gulizia
They were little skeletons that were crunchy and crispy all flopped over.
00:56:01
Jocelyn
un love
00:56:03
Jennifer Gulizia
Thankfully, I can restart those.
00:56:03
Jocelyn
yep
00:56:04
Jennifer Gulizia
But it's like, well,
00:56:06
Jocelyn
It just, yeah. And now I call that another succession, you know?
00:56:10
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes.
00:56:12
Jocelyn
well, we'll just do another succession. It's fine. um That's how I do my successions a lot of the ways, a lot of times is that like half the plants die that got put in. And then I'm like, oh, well, I guess I'll just have to do another succession.
00:56:25
Jocelyn
And then, yeah. And so it is at this point, I'm very casual. about a lot of things because it is just like it is what it is. It's a hot mess.
00:56:36
Jocelyn
um
00:56:37
Jennifer Gulizia
I love that. What advice would you give to someone who's listening that either identifies as queer or is struggling to fit in in the industry?
00:56:50
Jennifer Gulizia
What advice do you have for them?
00:56:52
Jocelyn
Oh man, community. um so I mean, that's like community, community, community. You are not alone. um And especially when it's rural and you know, money is tight and all of that. Your, your main thing are going to be the people that you can fall back on or your community and work parties, you know, like if you can't do it yourself, just make a big party of it, invite everybody over and, you know, ah share alcohol and food and, you know, everybody can make light work of it. And, uh, Yeah. And reach out because there are a lot of really incredible farmers that are um queer and want to create and ah an environment for queer folks to feel safe at. And, you know, we did, ah we do a lot of woofing or we not this year because the whole, a whole employee thing is going on. So I'm trying that out.
00:57:54
Jocelyn
um But I'm very particular about making sure that I am, um in the Woofing profile saying things like queer owned, queer friendly, neurodivergent, like we are this space where we want other people who are interested in doing this or even in just kind of trying it out to come and play and just see it. And um we do events that are queer based too. ah So we have our, um our grape wrestling event at the end of September. It's a harvest event and we do, it's basically like jello wrestling or mud wrestling, except it's, in grapes and ah we raise money for our local pride organization and for like the Northwest immigration rights project. And yeah. And it's a party and it's like very queer friendly, you know?
00:58:51
Jennifer Gulizia
Amazing. I'm going to have to come check that out one of these years.
00:58:52
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:58:53
Jennifer Gulizia
I think that you still had the giant, were they inflatable pools when I came up to get the corms?
00:58:54
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:58:59
Jocelyn
Yeah.
00:59:01
Jennifer Gulizia
They were left over from the, do you actually use those grapes for the winemaking?
00:59:01
Jocelyn
yeah you know
00:59:06
Jocelyn
For moonshine.
00:59:07
Jennifer Gulizia
For moonshine?
00:59:07
Jocelyn
Yeah. Like, yes. So we don't make wine. I don't make wine. I i learned very early on that is way too much chemistry and cleaning. I just, i I'm too impatient.
00:59:17
Jocelyn
I want results a lot faster than that. And I don't have patience for like... two years of barrel aging and all in just, no, I like to drink it. I like to grow it.
00:59:28
Jocelyn
Um, I like to sell it and talk about it, uh, and learn everything I can, the history of it, but I do not like to make it. I like blending it. Um,
00:59:39
Jocelyn
But what I learned is that I can make a pretty delicious moonshine out of um mediocre to bad wine. And so when when you crush a bunch of grapes through wrestling, we can just distill that down into, you know, the blood and sweat, the hooch.
00:59:59
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh my goodness.
01:00:00
Jocelyn
Yeah.
01:00:00
Jennifer Gulizia
So do you sell that or where can people find that?
01:00:02
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm. it would i would I give it away as gifts um ah because i would have to get a lot of licenses in order to be able to sell it. And I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't want, you know, people to wrestle in the grapes before. I don't think you can get, you know, like Jack Daniels doesn't allow that kind of thing. I don't think we would be able to pull that off, you know.
01:00:25
Jennifer Gulizia
That's hilarious. Do you share stories of that or does someone have to come to the farm to actually experience that?
01:00:31
Jocelyn
Oh, um somebody can come to the farm. it's So this year, it's September 26th. It's Saturday, September twenty sixth And it's...
01:00:39
Jennifer Gulizia
You've got it planned out already.
01:00:41
Jocelyn
Yeah. Yeah. Because this year last year was kind of thrown together a little more last minute, but this year I want to make sure that we get our tickets out there. um And that it's called, it's called crush the patriarchy, a wine wrestling spectacle.
01:00:55
Jocelyn
And it's a matter men are allowed.
01:00:56
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh my gosh.
01:00:58
Jocelyn
Like everybody's allowed, like all, all allies and queries are allowed and anybody can wrestle if they want to. um We set up a little shower, but it's a lot of fun.
01:01:10
Jennifer Gulizia
I love that. you yeah just Your farm always sounds like you're having fun amidst the chaos. It seems like fun is one of those words that is always there.
01:01:17
Jocelyn
It is.
01:01:20
Jocelyn
Yes, we try. We're getting a lot of work done, but it's fun.
01:01:23
Jennifer Gulizia
And your family.
01:01:24
Jocelyn
Yeah.
01:01:25
Jennifer Gulizia
And I noticed it's a family affair. Like you and I have been at the same farmer's market and your boys come with you to the market and they help you set up, seeing them there making bouquets of flowers.
01:01:29
Jocelyn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:01:36
Jocelyn
Out of leaves and, yeah, out of stuff that falls on the ground. Yeah, they love that. and then they're selling it. They're trying to sell those for, like, $10. And I'm like, way to really set the price point, babes.
01:01:50
Jennifer Gulizia
We're raising some entrepreneurs.
01:01:51
Jocelyn
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
01:01:54
Jennifer Gulizia
Jocelyn, what would you say to the version of yourself from five or 10 years ago who didn't quite yet know if she belonged here?
01:02:04
Jocelyn
Um...
01:02:07
Jocelyn
I would remind her that ah she had never been in one place for this long before and um to stop looking for the next thing and a kind of ah settle into this, um that there is, there is room to grow.
01:02:30
Jocelyn
And, you know, just because it isn't happening as fast as I want it to doesn't mean it won't.
01:02:37
Jennifer Gulizia
Yeah, sometimes good things take time to grow.
01:02:40
Jocelyn
Correct. Yeah.
01:02:41
Jennifer Gulizia
And i I love, one of my coaches reminded me once that just because there's not a lot happening above the ground, sometimes it's those roots that are having to grow and to really plant yourself somewhere that have to get in there.
01:02:55
Jocelyn
Right.
01:02:56
Jennifer Gulizia
And especially if we go back to Jen, my conversation with Jen Aaron, my soil agronomist, if the soil is compacted, it's going to be even harder for those roots to get into place. So it just takes time.
01:03:06
Jocelyn
Yeah, exactly. And to to build that community in there. And so even though you're buried, you're still building community and then and then it could just book explode out.
01:03:16
Jocelyn
Yeah.
01:03:18
Jennifer Gulizia
Absolutely. We've talked about a lot today. Before we say goodbye, this year I've started asking a series of quick fire questions.
01:03:21
Jocelyn
Yeah.
01:03:26
Jennifer Gulizia
So I've got four questions to wrap us up here. And the first one is, what is your favorite flower to grow or work with and why?
01:03:36
Jocelyn
I knew this was coming and I still don't have a good answer. um i think it changes from season to season. I think, you know, whatever, whatever's the new thing that I've been looking forward to. So, you know, like in the middle of winter, I'm like, I love tulips. And, you know, and then I'm like, I hate tulips. And then I move on to like, I love ranunculus. And then I hate ranunculus. And then I move on to, you know, the next best thing. But I'm going to tell you, i think,
01:04:06
Jocelyn
ah I really love Columbine. it's just something so dainty in it.
01:04:10
Jennifer Gulizia
I'm loving it this year.
01:04:12
Jocelyn
I love it. It's so pretty. um it's It reseeds itself so completely, and I had never even thought of it as like a cut flower, but I've had it in every single garden I've ever, you know, planted. um So that's always something. Lavender, i will always plant everywhere. Herbs in general.
01:04:31
Jocelyn
um What else? Oh, allium. Allium is one of my favorites. Just because it's so... The varieties, like at my favorite variety is Schuberti or Schuberti, which is the one that looks like a firework.
01:04:45
Jocelyn
It's just got like kind of got a smaller ball of flowers and then this like explosion of other flowers.
01:04:45
Jennifer Gulizia
Oh.
01:04:50
Jocelyn
And they're so fun. And you can really, it's fun to play with and design with. And it will get like the, ooh, what's that question every single time. And the flowers themselves smell really pretty.
01:05:04
Jocelyn
They don't smell like onion. So Allium's a go-to. And they're drought tolerant. And they're pollinator friendly. And the deer don't like them. Yeah.
01:05:14
Jennifer Gulizia
Lots of benefits. And they dry really well.
01:05:15
Jocelyn
Yeah. And they dry really well. Yeah.
01:05:19
Jennifer Gulizia
I love the look of a dried allium.
01:05:19
Jocelyn
Yeah.
01:05:20
Jennifer Gulizia
I think it's just such a fun, unique thing.
01:05:23
Jocelyn
Yeah.
01:05:24
Jennifer Gulizia
Why do local flowers matter to you?
01:05:30
Jocelyn
For the same reason, i think for a lot of people is, ah you know, having, having a lower carbon footprint, bringing things a little closer. our,
01:05:41
Jocelyn
Local flower movement is not the first time the local flower movement has been a big thing. Like it was huge. There are still glass greenhouses in California that um were run by, you know, Japanese American immigrants who did flowers. And then when they were put into internment camps, they lost all of their property. And so it's just, it's not that long ago that like the local flower, we were a huge producer of local flowers, this country, um, before it got sent, sent elsewhere.
01:06:17
Jocelyn
And I think bringing things back, um, especially skills and, um, practice older practices that are environmentally beneficial is great.
01:06:32
Jocelyn
And getting rid of monoculture, please.
01:06:36
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes.
01:06:36
Jocelyn
yeah
01:06:37
Jennifer Gulizia
What is one thing you wish more people understood about the floral industry?
01:06:46
Jocelyn
It's really hard work. Yeah. It's, um, it's not just, you know, little pretty princesses dancing around in fields and, you know, florists aren't just little fancy pants dancing around. And, you know, I mean, some of us are, um, doing that kind of thing, but it's dirty and sweaty and hard and valuable work. And, um I think flowers, at least for me, help me slow down because I'm so busy in my head and just in my life all the time that like being able to spend time with flowers, especially moving into cut flowers as a crop, I am –
01:07:33
Jocelyn
slowing down to be able to look at the pollinators and to, you know, like appreciate how gorgeous the the flower parts are, like the dancing stamens on this particular peony or the way that, you know, the the petals like will blush out or just it's it's very fun to be able to do that.
01:07:54
Jocelyn
Yeah.
01:07:54
Jennifer Gulizia
I love that.
01:07:55
Jocelyn
Literally sobbing and smelling the roses.
01:07:55
Jennifer Gulizia
It does really make you
01:07:58
Jocelyn
it
01:07:59
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes.
01:07:59
Jocelyn
Sorry, go ahead.
01:08:00
Jennifer Gulizia
that That's great. Thank you for saying that. I love that you really have to notice things like whether you're walking, looking for pests and disease on your plants, it forces you to slow down and notice. I mean, we're in such a busy hustle culture where it's like, okay, what's next? What's next?
01:08:18
Jennifer Gulizia
But you can't do that with flowers. You have to actually pay attention to what's happening in the moment. Okay.
01:08:24
Jocelyn
Oh, that was another thing is that local flowers smell better.
01:08:25
Jennifer Gulizia
Yeah.
01:08:28
Jocelyn
And that when you have, when you go in to take a breath of a flower, you are breathing in deeply.
01:08:28
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes, they do.
01:08:33
Jocelyn
And so you're literally slowing down, taking a deep breath. and acknowledging a moment. So that's what I wanted to make sure I said.
01:08:42
Jennifer Gulizia
I love that. What are you most grateful for that flowers have given you beyond the blooms?
01:08:48
Jocelyn
Oh, that. So like, yeah, that literally the, the slowing down. uh, ah It shows me every day, it shows me how much more connected things are than I realize, right? So, you know, the health of a plant and the health of a flower and the reason something flowers or the reason something fruits, it's all connected through all of these different um processes things.
01:09:24
Jocelyn
just to think about it, you get lost in thought. If you're just, you know, you can go down into the roots and the soil and the root exudates and, you know, all of that stuff, or you can go into like the solar power and climate change and water and how that's changing things. And there's so many facets and so many things that are so interesting. And, and it's every one of those things is an analogy for everything else in life. Right. And we, um,
01:09:56
Jocelyn
it it's just everything is connected. Like that's what I keep coming back to. Yeah.
01:10:02
Jennifer Gulizia
It's so true. Jocelyn, this has been such a delight. Can you tell our listeners where can they connect with you?
01:10:11
Jocelyn
Yeah. um So on my website, it's clusterflockfarms.com, farms with an S. um On Instagram, it's clusterflockflowers because there is, I think, a clusterflock farm somewhere else. But it's clusterflockflowers. And, yeah, you can always just email me from the website. And, yeah, that's that.
01:10:39
Jennifer Gulizia
Amazing. Well, we will include links to your web website and social media on our show notes for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy spring to chat with us on the podcast. It was such an honor to have you here.
01:10:51
Jocelyn
Thank you, too, Jen. It was good to talk with you.
01:10:53
Jennifer Gulizia
And I'll look forward to hearing about how your BRICS levels turn out this summer.
01:10:57
Jocelyn
Yes. Yes. We'll do a very loose experiment together.
01:11:02
Jennifer Gulizia
Yes. Yes, we will will. We'll keep everyone posted. Well, Jocelyn, thanks so much.
01:11:06
Jocelyn
Nice.
01:11:07
Jennifer Gulizia
And we'll talk to you soon. Have a good evening.
01:11:09
Jocelyn
A good pleasure. Thanks.
01:11:10
Jennifer Gulizia
Bye-bye.
01:11:11
Jocelyn
Bye.