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Episode 205: The Black Book of Jonathan Knotbristle with Chris Allaun
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Welcome back, Witches! This week we’re joined by author and witch Chris Allaun to discuss his latest book, The Black Book of Jonathan Knotbristle. Blending history, folklore, and practical magic, this fascinating work explores the life and teachings of the enigmatic Jonathan Knotbristle. We’ll be chatting with Chris about the inspiration behind the book, the research that brought it to life, and the magical traditions, folk practices, and occult themes woven throughout its pages. So get in, Loser — because this week we’re opening the Black Book and uncovering the secrets hidden within.
If you really loved the show and want more Get in Loser content, check out our Patreon, Supercast, & Buy Me a Coffee links below. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram @GetinWitches, on TikTok @weredoingwitchcraft, or email us at weredoingwitchcraft@gmail.com. You can support our show through our links below. Patreon: patreon.com/GetinWitches Supercast: https://getinloserweredoingwitchcraft.supercast.com Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/getinwitches Music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio- The Witch
Resources
- Allaun, Chris. The Black Book of Jonthan Knotbristle.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you feel drawn to learn more about witchcraft and the occult, but feel lost on where to start? Then welcome to Get In, Wooser, Where You're Doing Witchcraft, a podcast all about what it means to be a witch and where to get started on your journey.
00:00:12
Speaker
Join us as we navigate through various witchy topics and share what we've learned about the craft. So get in, witches, as we sit down with author and practitioner Chris Allen to talk about his book, The Black Book of Jonathan Notbrissel.
00:00:46
Speaker
Today we are excited to welcome Chris Allen to the show. Chris has been studying witchcraft, magic, and pagan traditions for over three decades. He is an ordained minister, one of the founders of the Fellowship of the Phoenix, and an initiate of traditional witchcraft.
00:01:00
Speaker
He also teaches classes on topics like spirit work, shamanism, necromancy, and healing energy. Chris is the author of several books that explore spirit work and magic to include the one we've been reading for this episode, The Black Book of Jonathan Knott-Brizzle.
The Queer Spirit Worker Book
00:01:16
Speaker
Chris, we're so excited to have you today. Would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners and telling us a bit about yourself and your path?
00:01:26
Speaker
Sure. i'm I'm Chris Allen. um And I am a queer, witch, pagan spirit worker.
00:01:39
Speaker
and I also work with love with Lakota a spiritual spirituality and I've worked with a lot of Lakota elders.
00:01:49
Speaker
um um And currently i am I'm anxiously awaiting the release of a new book coming out in January that's called The Queer Spirit Worker.
Community and Inclusion in Witchcraft
00:02:05
Speaker
And I'm excited ah about it because um not only do I um i contribute, but I have about 10 other a queer trans for non-binary, gay, lesbian, for contributors. So um I'm excited. It's going to be very...
00:02:32
Speaker
ah Screw the patriarchy, things like that. So, yeah. Oh, I'm excited about that. I can't wait to read that. Yeah. That sounds amazing. it makes me so happy because growing up,
00:02:47
Speaker
and And considering you know you've been doing this for a really long time, i grew up pagan. Whenever I was much younger and like trying to to learn more prior to the internet being what it is, it's so hard to find that community. And so it's so refreshing nowadays to know that there is a community space for anyone, regardless of you know your practice, you can always find like-minded individuals and I just think that that is such an awesome concept for a book to bring in a collection of contributors that think it's awesome.
00:03:29
Speaker
he yeah Yeah part of the reason I had the idea idea of have um other contributors ah ah along with myself is because you know I'm just a a gay, cis, white man. And I think the queer community is so fast with with the different experiences and people. And I think, and I specifically asked a few trans people to contribute because I wanted their voices to be heard. i and in i Plus I wanted a different perspective.
00:04:10
Speaker
a perspective than my own. I you know i wanted to be challenged and I wanna challenge the reader in such a way it's it's like, oh, I never thought of it this way or, oh, here's a different way of looking at things. So that was that was the goal.
00:04:29
Speaker
I love that too, because a lot of times what you see is someone will write, you know, through the lens of everyone else. And so I think this is this is really awesome that you you've brought like a collective of people in on this.
00:04:43
Speaker
Well, you know, one of the things I pay attention to, I do pay attention to constructive criticism when it's constructive and cannot just hateful because, you know, it's the internet. um ah One of the things that...
00:04:59
Speaker
people say is that hey just be mindful about it's your experiences through your through your eyes and ni and other people may see things but completely differently or they may have something ah brand new new to the to the conversation and you know I'm a teacher and so um you know with my with my students I whenever I'm teaching spirituality or paganism or whatever, i teach and them and they're always showing me something brand new or teaching me something.
00:05:39
Speaker
or they say, oh, I'm going to take your idea and change it or expand upon it or whatever. And i'm like, wow, that's really cool. So I really like the different voices and points of views.
Chris's Personal Practice and Influences
00:05:53
Speaker
I feel like too, with the, with the podcast, we've, we've noticed that a lot when we first started out, you know, obviously it's just like, okay, well, it's our perspective. We always tell people, you know, do your own research. And, you know, there might be things that we practice that you don't practice or things that we.
00:06:09
Speaker
don't feel like we have, um, like we shouldn't practice. Like obviously this isn't, um, from our own culture and we don't want to appropriate in any sort of culture. So we're not going to practice. But if, if you are from that culture, like obviously if if we say something wrong or we are talking about a specific practice on our podcast, but you want to enlighten us on it more than what obviously we know about it because we're not part of that culture. Like we welcome it. And, um, I love the the perspectives we get. Sometimes we get emails from people who are, say, if we talk about a a specific practice on ah the podcast and, um,
00:06:50
Speaker
like we always welcome any feedback on it, but then sometimes we'll get emails from people who are not part of that practice at all. And they're like, well, I'm speaking on behalf of this entire culture. And it's like, no, like that's not how works. I have so many opinions about that. We call that the white savior. And the white savior, if you don't already know,
00:07:15
Speaker
is when people just like you said, speak for a culture. And I was just having a conversation with someone who's a queer person of color. And he was saying that a lot of people try to
00:07:37
Speaker
speak for him because he was interested. And I thought that was a very interesting conversation. they were like, aren't you offended? And he's like, no, it's cool. I'm cool. I'm fine. If I was offended, I have a voice. Oh no, you should be offended. and it was just the silliest thing in the world. Yeah.
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess going into some of the questions we have here, as far as, you know, considering how long that you've been practicing, how would you describe your personal practice today? and has it changed much from when you first started?
00:08:14
Speaker
oh well, yeah. yeah arm yeah Yes. I first started um was And, you know, I live in this small town and i and my very first book on witchcraft and was a Raymond Buckland's complete book of witchcraft. And it's a classic and I like it. And, and, you know, i think it's fine for the eighties and in early nineties and everything. And I, I, at the time when I was 17, I've really enjoyed that book a lot.
00:08:54
Speaker
Um, But then I've read other authors and I started different practice and I started to read Sarabhomoneal magic and Kabbalah.
00:09:09
Speaker
And then I got formally trained in a you know a core spiritual tradition with the Fellowship the Phoenix and I became a minister. And then I worked with the doing energy healing and Reiki and and. um And, you know, spirit work and Lakota spirituality and things like that.
00:09:34
Speaker
And so it just kind of evolved that i'm one of those people I constantly, like, i I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. However, I still but take classes from, you know, other author friends.
00:09:51
Speaker
Um, I took two, um, online classes from, um, Matthew Venus, who, if you don't know him, I highly recommend him. He's awesome. Um, I took his conjuring class and I took his folklore witchcraft class and all those things I already have experience in and I've wanted to have his point of view.
00:10:17
Speaker
you know i' I wanted to stretch my imagination. So I think I'm constantly learning and growing and challenging myself. And so my practice changes. I mean, it's just...
00:10:31
Speaker
At the core, it's the same. It doesn't really like hook, like how I relate to it. It doesn't change per se, but I do have a deeper understanding of it.
00:10:44
Speaker
You know, you know, that just keeps on growing and growing and things like that. Yeah. So what traditions, philosophies or influence do you think have shaped your practice the most then over the years?
00:11:00
Speaker
ah Definitely paganism, definitely traditional witchcraft, ceremonial magic, Kabbalah. um yeah Part of that, i think, like, so I started 1992 and, you know,
00:11:19
Speaker
from the sixty s seventy s and in the 80s, the craft was a combination of Wicca, ceremonial magic, chakras, energy work, and that was basically it. I mean, and you had your other traditions like the Nordic tradition, the Egyptian, and so forth.
00:11:37
Speaker
um So the things I was exposed to at that time in the 90s still had a a lot of, you know, witchcraft and Wicca, and scrammonia magic.
The Black Book of Jonathan Knott-Brizzle
00:11:53
Speaker
So that's kind of like my core.
00:11:56
Speaker
However, of working for with Lakota spirituality has really shaped how I view the earth and a few ancestors and few spirits because you know I've done in the in the Yippies of which is a sweat will lodge I got her magician to carry the chinupa which is the sacred and healing um pipe um I've done um Frisian Quest and things like that. So, don't know. I think I have a very large point of view when it comes to mechanic and healing and energy work and earth traditions and things. Oh, and I was also initiated into the OTO. I forgot about that.
00:12:45
Speaker
always forget about a peak because it's ceremonial. However, it's a little different, you know. Yeah. I... I love how like your background and your practice and stuff is so well-rounded. and I mean, obviously that's going to happen with, you know, yeah since you've been practicing since 92, but um it's so interesting because like, you know, for me, whenever I first was just like, okay, like growing up in it, my dad was pagan and he was very into, um
00:13:21
Speaker
I don't even, i don't know. I know he was very eclectic. He was never, he never worked with anybody else. He was never part of any sort of coven or, um, so he was really a solo practitioner, but growing up, I was just like, Oh, you know, i' I don't want to do that. Like, and then as an adult leaning back into it, I'm just like, well, you know maybe, maybe Wicca would be for me. And then doing more research and stuff, I'm like, no, no,
00:13:49
Speaker
And then other things. Like, where am I going? Yeah. i Like, yeah, I think I want to go like this route. And then it kind of like takes me like full circle back when I originally was just like, oh, you know, i want to lean back into some of the things that I um practiced or was around as a child, like where i I immediately thought, that's not for me. I've like come this full circle and I'm just like, oh, well. and I can see how it all like intertwines and correlates, but it's just, it's weird the way that sometimes our practice just takes us on a completely different journey. Yeah. I mean, I'm also one of those people. people i
00:14:33
Speaker
I like to learn and, and research and explore. So, and I also get bored. So i'm like, Oh, i already know all this. So let me try this and I'm going and some things I've tried. I'm like, yeah, that's not my thing. And that's a okay. Like there are some aspects about certain traditions I like and others I'm like, that's just not resonating and that's okay.
00:14:59
Speaker
At least I have a a general understanding of it though now. So looking at some of the inspiration behind um the black book of Jonathan Knott Bristle, what first inspired you to write this book?
00:15:13
Speaker
I love this question. I get this question all the time. um So before, I brought a lot of how-to, like how to journey the underworld, how to work with the ancestors, how to work with the gods, and so forth.
00:15:26
Speaker
And um my friends, ah Blake and Wick Malloway, who own Cross Crow, They said, oh, Chris Allen, we want you to youtube write for us. And I said, I'm in a graduate program for and for Divinity. No.
00:15:45
Speaker
Time went on. Chris Allen, we want you to write a book for us. And I said, no, I have zero time. So finally, you know, you have to ask three times, like three times a chance. Like, Chris, you have to do something. I'm like, no.
00:16:01
Speaker
I don't have classes in summer, so I can write something because so if I've researched something and I practice something from start to finish, it takes a year to write because you're researching and practicing it. it yeah And I said, oh, if I can write um magical fiction, fiction, I put that in air quotes and here's why maybe i can...
00:16:31
Speaker
um write something in the summer for my June and August. And because I don't have to research anything. So um I decided, well, plus I'd like to think outside the box. I like to write things that and a lot of people um aren't writing. Hence, I wrote Underworld. And then I wrote A Guide of Spirits.
00:16:58
Speaker
So all that was just little different so i thought oh let me try this so what i did is because i've worked with love with the witch ancestors i said okay witch ancestors i need a cool story i don't have a cool story i need you to tell me one and and am i working with the ancestors one of them said i have a story about me yeah me and i'm like please tell and i can and And so I changed his name. His name is not Jonathan the Opera, so I intentionally changed that.
00:17:36
Speaker
um And so he told me basically his story about how he became a witch and and everything in Texas. And... um I kind of fictionalized some things, just a mckay cut of stories. You can have a flow and can have a plot and things like that. So, however, a lot of the techniques are his, a lot of the stories are his.
00:18:03
Speaker
um And that's how I come came up with the whole idea of Jonathan not Bristle. Yeah. yeah i love that. And I love that you answered the next question basically too. Because we were going to ask, you know, how did this character come about? so Yes. So it's a real ca ca person. However, it's some things are fictionalized. Yeah.
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So then what drew you, I guess, to tell the story through this particular voice and perspective in that way? So I'm from Texas um and I'm from the deep part of Texas, like um like a little teeny town outside of Houston. And then wolf once you get to the teeny tiny town, keep on driving to the sticks and that's where i'm from. so at nighttime, and I think this is and is is also why Jonathan came through because there's like a resonance.
00:19:09
Speaker
um He is actually from central Texas. um and But anyway, and, you know, when you're out in wove with the cows and the farms at nighttime, at nighttime, the spirits are very strong and aware and tangible.
00:19:28
Speaker
or You don't have to be psychic to feel them or and things. Like there's always stories about don't go into the woods alone at night. And you're like, oh, because of the coyotes? No, because of the spirits. ni And the old people talk about it like it's an everyday thing, you know, it's so normal. And so I kind of like that sort of storytelling to where, and the other thing is, is like in traditional witchcraft, half the time, They don't just say here's a technique, take a breath, you do this. I mean, they do have that, however, it's more of a They tell you story, mythology, lore, folklore, things like that. And so you learn through someone's experience. Like my teachers were always like, here's how I learned. Here's what happened to me. Here's the outcome. Here's how I screwed it up and learned from my mistake. And here's a success story. And here's what happened. and
00:20:32
Speaker
And I really liked that. And Lakota this also that's also how they teach they teach with like oh sit down let me tell you you know a story a legend or and so something and you can have a whole picture because for me I'm very visual in my head and I like stories I like pictures I like seeing through the eyes of someone of someone one else you know
00:21:04
Speaker
um So I like the idea dear because I think sometimes when we learn a magical technique, they explain it to you. Like, here's what it is. Here's how you do it. but you don't know how it feels.
00:21:21
Speaker
You don't know how it feels. How could you? Because you're a student and you don't know. However, when you tell a story, you can kind of vicariously come for connect with the story storyteller and kind of feel how they feel. And so that should help you with the magical technique. Yeah. And i've really I really enjoy that.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah. I agree. i want i Tiffany and I read a lot of magical fiction and nonfiction for the podcast. And I really enjoy this because it felt like, I mean, it you you get this understanding, like you were saying of, it's not just, we're going to talk about this spell, but it's as he's going through it.
00:22:13
Speaker
and and then also the spells in the back of the book, like I just, I love that. Like a little reclacent of the spells that were from the book. But I love how in this book and you know, whenever it starts out and we're we're learning more um about him, how he feels so isolated and alone where he's at. And I just love how throughout the book over time, we see more of this community. He has this found community aspect. And I feel like that can speak to so many people, regardless of if they are um a practitioner or if They're just coming into themselves and they're and they're learning more about their identity.
Magical Philosophy and Themes
00:22:57
Speaker
And I like how a lot of the community too, like even with um just that some of the people in this town, like that he didn't realize also were witches. And yeah so um I really liked that aspect of kind of like a, he loses his family, but he has this found family. And then he has all of these, you know, just deities too that are kind of,
00:23:22
Speaker
there to support him whenever he needs it the most. dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, look you know, one of the things, if you actually read about like, why is there this dark Germanic goddess and this dark Hindu gods and so forth,
00:23:45
Speaker
At the time, you know you didn't have electricity, you didn't have plumbing, you had to butcher your livestock or hunt or or plant or farm or whatever, and it was hard. And then you had disease and famine and storms. and so you know, how he you experience the gods is hard. And and and I think a lot and a lot of people think, oh, you know, the gods should be nurturing and they shouldn't
00:24:22
Speaker
hug you. And there are some gods like that. However, there's also gods and king goddesses who are like, nope, get it together. Yeah. Give you some of love. And I think we need the two. We need eat the gentle and we need the harsh because we are complicated, complicated humans.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. ah We have talked about that too on the podcast too. Whenever we do like, you know, more of like a, deeper look at certain like deities and stuff, it's like not everything is just love and light, but not everything in our world is love and light. like Everybody has different aspects to it. And there's going to be you know certain deities that you practice with that they're going to hold you accountable. and That's right.
00:25:10
Speaker
you know, you have to do the work too. and And, everybody thinks that like everything has to be, it's either black or white. And it's just like, no like we are all like, we have a spectrum and, you know, there are going to be times where we're going to lean maybe more towards you know, the love and light kind of magic. And there's going to be other times where we're not. And that doesn't make it good or bad. it just, it is what it is.
00:25:36
Speaker
I mean, that is full of gray areas. So. Yeah, that's true. yeah So for listeners, like speaking more to um some of the themes in the book, For listeners who practice themselves, um can you speak a little bit more on the elements of the real magic philosophy kind of embedded within the book?
00:25:59
Speaker
So the magical philosophy is very like about the land, the stars, the ancestors, you know. um It's about relationships. And to be honest, I talk about this all the time with all of my books.
00:26:17
Speaker
of books. You have to have a relationship with the spirits. And it doesn't have to be like, oh, we're close and best friends. However, I hope it's your friends with them. However, sometimes it is transactional.
00:26:30
Speaker
Meaning, hey, spirit of the tree, if they if you help me, I will give you such and such offering.
00:26:41
Speaker
Is that okay to you? Yes, it is. Well, that's a relationship. You know, um, For me, I have relationship with the elves, the fairies, the gods, my ancestors, and the spirit of plates, the spirit of planets, like the whole thing. And um I try to maintain those relationships with like,
00:27:04
Speaker
for devotionals and offerings and journeying and conversations and being, connecting. um One of the things, and and I think is important, and I think Jonathan does this so well, is you have to be in relationship to the spirits.
00:27:25
Speaker
around you on your in your area so the spirits of your home this and the spirits in your front yard the spirits at your local um forest the park or the beach or the lake or the river or the mountain wherever you you are have relationship with those spirits and they can be open to them having to their own personality, you know, because
00:27:59
Speaker
a a very large, brushing, fast River is going to have a completely different for personality than a gentle breeze. You know, it just is. And that's OK, because, you know, you have that friend who's kind of quiet and cool, but then you have that friend who's just extra and and you like them both for different reasons, you know.
00:28:33
Speaker
So that's how I would say that's the magical philosophy and things, you know. yeah Yeah. to the spirits around you, the spirits of place, the spirits of a tree.
00:28:47
Speaker
You know, I'm always walking and people think I'm crazy. I say hi the trees and hi to the flowers and I say hello to, you know, the rocks. And I think people around here are like, yeah, that shit's crazy.
00:29:03
Speaker
and I love that. i think it's i I think it's important to really connect with the land that you're living with um and and that like your home. like and i Knowing that you know there is because there is energy and everything, having that relationship with the land around you, I think is so important.
00:29:26
Speaker
i wonder too, this um this isn't a question that we have on here, so I'm going rogue, Tiffany. I'm sorry. So after after you were you know given, you know i guess, the basics of the story and everything, how has Jonathan, what does he think about the book?
00:29:49
Speaker
like Do you guys ever you know like connect with it? That's an interesting question. You're the first person to ever ask me that. um
00:29:59
Speaker
yeah So how sometimes spirits speak for communicate sometimes they it's a feeling sometimes you just have a thought you're like oh i think they're saying this or it's just enough awareness and so um he wants me to write a sequel um however however i have so many ideas for books it's not even funny like it's so so vast i have want do this i want do that want to that um
00:30:33
Speaker
um I think if i do a sequel for the next few years, I actually was going to write a s sequel a year year ago, but my editor was like, oh, well, um why don't you do a how-to book? Because we're afraid you might get...
00:30:58
Speaker
um a pigeonhole and being a fiction author and like that. I change anyway. i don't care people. Right. Yeah. That can be fiction. That can be nonfiction. I don't care. So I think he, I think he enjoys it.
00:31:14
Speaker
um There's, I do have a non-official, non-official sequel that's called the, um, whispers from the coven.
00:31:25
Speaker
And it's a similar style. And nakedke it takes place in, um, Chicago for 1947. And then instead of of which a sharing their experiences, it's a whole coven that takes turns sharing their experience. However, it's cool because it's, so it's it I took some of the famous hauntings. Now the this one is all fiction. It's all fiction.
00:31:55
Speaker
um I took the famous hauntings the in the Chicago area. It's 4 a.m. now. And I just threw people in and see what would happen. and yeah And there's a story now. Oh, that sounds awesome. um It sounds fun. the co And get its the it takes place in the same universe as Jonathan.
00:32:22
Speaker
And you'll see why in the book. Yeah. We'll definitely adding that to our TBR list. Yeah. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it because i have been promoting the shit out of it. Like.
00:32:43
Speaker
I'd like to do a fun photo shoot and things from time to time. And I did a photo shoot and I've been plastering it all over Instagram and everything. And I think all my friends are like, oh, for Christ, stop. And it's like, no. It's fun. It's business. personal. business. Yeah, Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker
However, when I start to get closer to the ah the queer spirit worker coming out, I'm going to a whole like other photo shoot for that and advertising and all that.
00:33:25
Speaker
Upright, nick alp because it's and it's in pre-orders, I've been doing a lot of teasers, you know. So for this book itself, what is one thing that you would want your readers to take away from this story?
00:33:39
Speaker
oh one thing i would say is to you can be open to new you and exp experiences and people.
00:33:52
Speaker
You'll be surprised how someone who you're like, I'm not going to resonate with them or I don't have anything in common and they become your best friend. Yeah. And the book, you know, his teacher basically becomes his, his family, you know, and, and it was so unexpected because he's just like, Oh,
00:34:20
Speaker
I'm not going to rock the boat. it is And and it it turned out to be a really fun relationship. So I guess that's my theme today is relationships and just keep you open to it and, and you know, and be your authentic self and no matter who it upsets, you know? Yeah.
Writing and Personal Growth
00:34:41
Speaker
right yeah I think I liked that so much about Jonathan as a character. he was just so like,
00:34:48
Speaker
go with the flow with any situation or person. I don't know what's going on. like, oh, well, I mean, sounds okay. I guess this is what we're doing. ones yeah Sure. a doubt he You have to be that way because I think sometimes in my life, I was very, things need to be a certain way. And then i and i've had times in my life I just totally went with the flow. And I find I have more fun when I just go with the flow. However, I'm a Gemini with a Virgo rising, so I rarely go with the flow. yeah However, when I do, it's a lot of fun.
00:35:38
Speaker
My moon is in Gemini. We were talking about this before we were recording. And I'm just like, and I feel like I'm... my like my aries sun and my gemini moon i feel like they work so well together because it's like we're going to we're going to just wing it and we're going to talk about it and we're going to like have a great time so i'm fascinated with this because yes so i'm a gemini sun with an aries moon wow yeah yeah yeah i've never met someone with the opposite danger danger and tiffany's like all cap records so she's just like oh my gosh let's wrangle the cats that's right ri i mean win i do have a libra moon in aquarius rising so i have a little bit of fun in there yeah
00:36:34
Speaker
You're don't judge me. yeah I can have fun. Yes. Organization is fun. Yeah. As long as you do it my way. Right. Then we'll be fine. Yeah.
00:36:47
Speaker
Organization can be fun. Yeah. oh ah So we have some questions too about like going back to your personal practice. Um,
00:37:00
Speaker
Do you find, I'm changing one of our questions here, Tiffany. I'm just letting you know. i'm oh roughly yeah Do you find that writing about magic deepens your own practice?
00:37:13
Speaker
um Yeah, I think so. itd be Because like, and it's interesting because I'm in, I'm and come in a and doctoral program for chaplaincy. I'm in the end of research phase of it. And my research, I know what I want to say. i have to find the research to back it up. And if I find the opposite, that I can change my thought and I enjoy that. So the same thing when I'm writing, um I've reached, like I have a thought or an idea and I'm going to find other research to say, oh,
00:37:54
Speaker
um show me how like for example if i talk about fairies so lose let me do scholarly or at least intelligently written but um books about the fairies and then know all of a sudden i've learned something like oh i didn't know this happened or oh here's a practice i didn't know only try that and um And what I usually do, take my current practice and I let the new research expand upon it. So it can be like, i don't know, a healing technique. And they'll say, oh, instead of bringing it energy to your heart chakra, bring it down to your feet
00:38:46
Speaker
breathe in the inner energy of the earth and then up to the heart. I'm like, oh, I learned something from my research.
Folklore and Historical Magic
00:38:53
Speaker
And so, yeah, and I learned things all the time, all the time.
00:38:58
Speaker
And I enjoy it because I'm kind of neurotic when it comes to research and learning because just, it feeds me. It feeds my soul. i I love it. However, sometimes I'm like,
00:39:12
Speaker
when's the last time I've read any fiction? Like I can't even remember because it's just learning and I'm one those weird people. People make fun of me and I don't care, it's me.
00:39:24
Speaker
I love a good documentary and that's how I unwind. It's like, I'll make myself a cocktail and I'll watch a documentary about sea turtles and I'm, I'm living my best life. It sounds like Tiffany. I was like, yeah. I'm my little and murder documentary oh yeah you know that is like,
00:39:50
Speaker
No, that's the pentacle of happiness because when you hear something stuff so strange and not strange at the same time. so so So I always say about my family, a lot of us have some, ah
00:40:10
Speaker
psychic ability, but you don't say things like, you know, I'm a witch or anything. You say it comes from Jesus because they're all very Christian and things like that. yeah And so my mother always had dreams. However, it was always something bad Always, always, always.
00:40:26
Speaker
however, around my house were the haunted woods. And it was, and just like I said, it was a very a common thing. We all talked about it.
00:40:39
Speaker
Well, I saw a documentary a couple of years ago that's called the Texas killing fields. And it was this mistake on highway 45. It isn't too far from my house.
00:40:52
Speaker
A murderer would just leave dead bodies in the woods. Just like that. There you go. little gift And the funny thing is I'm, I'm watching this documentary and I told my mom, I'm like, is that close to our house? And she goes, oh, yeah.
00:41:12
Speaker
Oh, yeah. You knew all about that, didn't you? And I'm like, no. And she's like, oh, yeah. It's like common knowledge. And I'm just like, what the hell? So so speaking, it's a true crime documentary. It's called The Texas Killing Fields. You have to watch it. Adding that the list. Because And I love it when they end series like this, they never caught the killer. You're like, yeah, so they they could still just be out there. yeah
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah. Who's behind me. Yeah. lot yeah That's so interesting too, that. Especially with your mom having like those prophetic dreams like that. I wonder if any of the dreams she had, like, because you were so close to those woods,
00:41:57
Speaker
were actually like spirits coming to her trying to like tell their stories, but she wasn't interpreting it that way. You know what I mean? ah For her, her ja dreams were like, and this happened. She had a dream that my uncle died in a car wreck. And so she prayed and prayed and prayed that he'd be safe.
00:42:18
Speaker
And then sure as shit, he died. out in a massive car accident but he was saved you know or she would dream things that like me he and my brothers i have three i have three brothers and we can never do anything wrong because she would have a dream about it and then we'd get in trouble yeah all the time oh yeah i'm just i had a dream you did this and we're like Yeah, I was planning that. I guess maybe I want to do that. Or she would say, i had dream that you got this brand new job and I would, you know.
00:42:54
Speaker
That's really awesome. Yeah. She hasn't said anything in a long time though. I wonder if she's just not telling me.
00:43:06
Speaker
She's like, oh my gosh. um which Which question are we on, Sam? Could you change something? I did. i i did.
00:43:18
Speaker
um Whichever one, I just decided i i didn't like the one that I had highlighted. And so I just chose one that i thought I liked better. Okay. Sounds good. You guys are too funny. We try to plan out because I have ADHD, so I am chaos at any time if I don't have a plan. Oh, that's where I thrive. Let's make it chaotic.
00:43:45
Speaker
Okay. So what role do you feel that folklore or historical magic even just play in how you practice today? I'd say about half now. Okay.
00:43:57
Speaker
and I think if at first it was zero, then 10%, then 20%. And when I became an initiate, so, okay. So for me, it was so strange because when I first was interested,
00:44:13
Speaker
interested in witchcraft and magic, I grew up with, like I said, prophetic dreams and ghosts and naked in the spirits in the woods.
00:44:24
Speaker
And then when I found Wicca, because i that's all I knew, i was like, oh, this is nothing like that. yes so So I was like, well, maybe that's all in my head then.
00:44:41
Speaker
when i found traditional folklore with its craft i'm like oh this resonates because this is nick not exactly how i grew up but it has some nuances right nuances and things and i'm like i really like that and i became initiated and now i have my own circle um and so And plus, so the other thing is like, when I first started on the traditional witchcraft path, there was one publisher, one, one.
00:45:15
Speaker
Now there's like 17,000. Yeah. And the books were from Britain and you have to pay $35 for a hundred page book. And now it's like Llewellyn has it.
00:45:27
Speaker
Cross Crow has it. Um, Wisner has it. Um, and ah Troy, Troy's actually a great company for triadcraft.
00:45:41
Speaker
And so is Cross Quo, of course, my publisher. I have to hear that. And I like it because... um But I'm also Gemini, so I need half and half. So for me, half of it is like intuition, and relationships, focal, or the dreams and the ghosts. And the other half is circles and pentacles and ceremony and angels and of blah, blah, blah. I have to have...
00:46:12
Speaker
too or I'm i'm not happy. you know Yeah. I guess kind of a follow up. This also wasn't one of the questions that we were going to ask, but it kind of fits. I know you said that you work with a lot of different spirits and like ancestors. Is there a particular spirit or even just like symbols or practices that are more central to your work every day?
00:46:34
Speaker
um I would just say the ancestors are my personal gods. I have some helper spirits I work with. I have an elvish teacher I work with.
00:46:47
Speaker
um I recently took a vacation to
00:46:53
Speaker
Belize and wolf we went to a Mayan temple and one of the healer spirits were like, I'm going to work with you. And I was like, Please. It was so cool because they hay said, ah you're going to find a plaque that's hand,
00:47:11
Speaker
a a that has a Mayan symbol or a picture or something. That's going to be my house and I'm going to come home with you and share a shit.
00:47:24
Speaker
I found that thing that they showed me in end of the years and I took it home. In fact, here, um I'll show it to you. Hold on. Okay. Yeah. Isn't this cool?
00:47:37
Speaker
That is so cool. Yeah, was hand carved. Yeah. So, yes, and that spirit lives in this. And the thing is, is that like that story sounds more grand than it is. I think what happens is when a spirit or an healing spirit or a helper spirits, they can see you your aura and your vibration. They say, Oh, you know how to work with me.
00:48:05
Speaker
I want to work with it you be be be because if we have a connection. So anyone could go to any site or sacred place or place,
00:48:19
Speaker
Just like i said, a beach, a mountain, a river, and meet those spirits and have those spirit helpers. However, you need to ask them, will you be a spirit helper?
00:48:32
Speaker
um Have a sacred space for them. and it could be a shelf, it's fine. Have something that represents them, or a container, it could be like a bowl or like a candle, a box, a rock, whatever.
00:48:47
Speaker
and you honor them and you give them the um offerings and you maintain those relationships. And in some traditions, like in voodoo, you would use like alcohol.
00:49:02
Speaker
no um You could use cigar smoke as offerings. um I am working with some voodoo spirits in the Al, um And i one of the spirits only, well, one of his favorite things is he likes cigars most. So I breathe it in, I breathe it out and he's very happy.
00:49:26
Speaker
that's That's super interesting. I wonder, so whenever you go places like you like historical sites and whatnot, um how do you go about, like, do you set an intention before you go? Because I've noticed- Yes, 100%. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because it's like- it's our church.
00:49:47
Speaker
It's our temple. I mean, and it doesn't have to be like, Oh, a Mayan temple. doesn't have to be that. It can be yeah literally anything. It can be a cemetery. It can be a rock. It can be, you know, so sometimes I'm walking through the o woods or park and there's these trees that are just,
00:50:10
Speaker
calling to me it's like i get a feeling like let me check that out and i'll place my hand and i'll talk to the spirit and i'll feel it and i connect and sometimes it's a high spirit and sometimes it's a oo let's work together and sometimes yeah it's a oh what's going on here like who knows do you like go in with um like boundary, any sort of boundaries in place of like, these are the rules that I want to follow. And if, you know, we can abide by these rules and then it's safe for you to come home with me or are you just open to all experiences?
00:50:46
Speaker
e Yes and no. So I do like a ground and center and shield, you know, because I don't want something crazy and jumping on me and, you know, um,
00:50:59
Speaker
It has to be a spirit who is respectful. However, I also understand that I can't tell a spirit to act like a human. I can't say, oh, you have to, you know, do this and this. I will say for no harm and to myself or others.
00:51:19
Speaker
um My core is all about wellness and health. So if and wellness in health and health doesn't have to be I'm physically strong. and It can be.
00:51:31
Speaker
teach me how to expand my consciousness or my heart or teach me how to ah be be more patient or to understand things or whatever.
00:51:41
Speaker
um It's all healing, you know. um
00:51:47
Speaker
I don't work with this a spirit just because there has to be a reason. And sometimes a spirit can say, I have a reason for you, Michael. I never thought of that. That's a good idea. um Um, I mean, I am open to experiences. However, sometimes and kind spanish i already have a full group where you can, you can't see it. However, I have like one, two, three, or four or five altars around me and I have like shelves behind me and things like that.
00:52:14
Speaker
So I'm pretty full here. Yeah. and an Ancestor all turn the dining room and
Perspectives on Magic and Folklore
00:52:20
Speaker
things. And so I'm pretty full. So I don't just, I don't think, up and um, um,
00:52:26
Speaker
person should um will collect spirits like there's like their stamps you know right it needs to be a reason and sometimes it can't be temporary though so for example if you're working with this spirit to teach you astrology or whatever it is and once you're through you thank them you give them offerings and you wish them well you know yeah yeah that's fine too Oh, yeah. I love that. Yeah. Because I've gone to, before I realized what was really happening, um and i have a friend that's a medium and she was able to be like, well, this is what's happening and this is why. But I would go to places when we lived, yeah both Tiffany and I are military affiliated. And I used to live in England a few years back and I would go to historical sites and it would just be like this overwhelming, like the emotions of some of the spirits that were there. And I didn't know what was happening and it was kind of scary. And then like realizing, okay, actually this is okay. Like this isn't anything to be scared about. Like you just have to, you know, go in. um But yeah. And so like after that would happen, other places I would go, I would just kind of, I feel like completely shut down. And like, I'm not going to go over there, even though I feel drawn to over here for whatever reason, i'm not going to go over there. And so now I know kind of.
00:53:53
Speaker
how to, to deal with that. But it was, it was hard at first, like not having, not knowing what to do, um, was difficult. Yeah. It's hard because when I used to go into the woods, like I enjoyed it and it it was scary and it was weird, and but it was fun and I didn't understand it whatever. However, I always felt protected. i just, I did.
00:54:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's strange. Like once you have the training, you're like, oh, here's how I shield and ground. And here's how I talk to. And here's how I have a stroke. But Andrea, like, no, you're too chaotic for my house. So I'm going to.
00:54:34
Speaker
come visit you here at the at the book instead you know I like that idea i have one last question about i about the book um did uh did working on this book change how you think about magic or folklore in any way like did it change your perspective at all No, because I already had um a very strong background already. And so what it did is, would say it validated a lot of my experience.
00:55:10
Speaker
feelings and thoughts are already like, oh, I thought that was the case. I wasn't sure about the academic, now I understand more. Oh, that makes more sense. You know, I've had things like that. it wo work I didn't have any like, oh my God, this is so life changing. I didn't have any of that.
00:55:29
Speaker
yeah Because you also have to remember, I was initiated into traditional witchcraft in 2002. So by the time even sat down, I've been um with this tradition for 20 years.
Fun Questions and Closing
00:55:45
Speaker
So we have a couple of fun questions to end on. Okay. So the first one is, if you could spend a day studying magic with any historical witch, cunning person or folkloric figure, who would you choose?
00:56:01
Speaker
Oh, it would be, um oh God, how do you pronounce her name?
00:56:11
Speaker
Isabel Gowdy. Have you heard of her? have. She was Scottish, a scholar wrote about her and things. And I think she's fantastic and quirky and weird and great like crazy. And I love it, I'm here for it. Yes. Oh,
00:56:31
Speaker
Yeah, too. Yeah. Perfect. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. i like that question, Tiffany. yeah it's a cool question. is a cool question. Okay. so And then just lastly, we always like to ask um all of the authors that come on our show what you're currently reading right now.
00:56:52
Speaker
and You're going to laugh. I am reading... how chaplains can use psychological theory to help people with a terminal illness. Because that's my research. yeah yeah That's I'm researching because that's what I do. I'm an ordained priest and I work at a hospital and I'm a chaplain. and And here's the thing.
00:57:17
Speaker
i love it so much. As annoying as it is distribute read scholarly read research, I love it. I love it. I feel like I'm learning things. I feel like I'm expanding can my approach because I think chaplaincy is healing and I'm becoming a better healer in that way. So yeah, that's what I'm reading. That's my whole life right now.
00:57:44
Speaker
I love that. i was actually just, I'm so interested and intrigued with your um with your work as a chaplain. um Because I was talking with one of my coworkers yesterday. I'm a social worker, but i work like macro level social worker. Oh, so now we have a connection. Yeah, yeah. And um one of my coworkers, he has a background in um I can't remember what he's like. He's like a licensed clinician, but he's also a chaplain. And I just, I love that he married both of those things together because it's just oftentimes, and especially in the military world, people will go to chaplains because they know they have like 100% confidentiality, but they don't realize how, you know, the chaplain can be like,
00:58:39
Speaker
especially how you're trained, like they don't realize how much, bit how many, how much benefits I cannot talk, how much benefit going and just talking to a chaplain, even if you don't feel like you're religious or you feel like you, even if you're, you know, agnostic or atheist, it doesn't matter. Like just having and support. Yes. It's that support and our jobs. And I have to explain this every day to the patients.
00:59:04
Speaker
um A chaplain is like an extra layer of mean emotional support. And sometimes it's a, um I hold their hand. Sometimes I pray with them sometimes. And I pray their religions. So it can be.
00:59:20
Speaker
Christian, Jewish, pagan, Buddhist, whatever. Yeah. um and so you support them. And sometimes you support them in their joy. Sometimes you support them in their grief. And someone asked me a long time ago, how do you work with dying people? I'm like, how can I not? Right.
00:59:41
Speaker
How do you not support people on their last journey? Yeah. and To me at the end of it, that's truly The magic is supporting people on their journey. Yes. That's what it's all about.
00:59:56
Speaker
Yes. I'm so intrigued. I've looked into this. I've not done any of the schooling or like. you know, committed to it or anything, but I've always been so intrigued in like death doulas and wanting to be able to be that support for people who are passing. I think that is just. That's what chaplains and do all day long. Yes. Yeah. oh I think it's such important work and it's, it's work that people feel like it's just scary and because it's this unknown, but it's, it's so important.
01:00:24
Speaker
yeah Yeah, absolutely. Well, is there anything else that you feel like you want to share any like social medias you want to plug anything like that?
01:00:35
Speaker
the The only social media is I have, I'm on Facebook and Instagram. Uh, just, uh, type in Chris Allen, A L L A U N and you will find me, um, feel for free to reach out. and Anyone can say hi.
01:00:54
Speaker
um Try to say more than high in case, you know, I don't want people like, oh, what's going on there? If they say, oh, I want to have a conversation or I have a question. I i love when people reach out and have questions and things.
01:01:11
Speaker
Any last things, Sam? No, just this was awesome. I yeah love our conversation. Yeah. I'm so thankful that you came on our show. we You guys are so cute. I was having such a good time.
01:01:24
Speaker
Oh, good.
01:01:34
Speaker
That's a wrap on this episode of Get In Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft. We hope you had as much fun as we did. If you loved this episode, we'd be eternally grateful if you left us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
01:01:46
Speaker
It helps more witches, seekers, and magical misfits find the show. Want even more Get in Loser content? Join our Patreon or Supercast Coven. As a member, you'll get early access to episodes, a monthly newsletter, exclusive printable shadow work and grimoire pages, access to our witchy book club, promo codes for merch, and so much more. Just check the show notes for the link or search Get in Loser We're Doing Witchcraft on Supercast and Patreon.
01:02:11
Speaker
You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at GetInWitches or email us at We'reDoingWitchcraft at gmail.com. Join us next week for part four of our Altars series, this time looking at Letha. Until then, stay magical, stay curious, and as always, blessed be witches.