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Ep 61: A Portal Somewhere Good with Amber Bishop
331 Plays18 days ago
Artist Amber Bishop joins us in this episode to talk about their latest installation, A Portal Somewhere Good: Who's All Over There? We discuss Midwestern versus Southern Black regional attitudes towards nature, architectural racism, and Black folks' yard styles.
Amber is a memory worker, artist, and filmmaker based in Ohio, dedicated to uplifting and protecting Black stories. Her work translates her Black experience, revisits the past, and reimagines the future, focusing on alternative sites of memory and the Black fantastical life. As a 2022 Filmmaker's First Fund recipient, Amber is working on her first feature documentary film. She recently completed her MFA in Documentary Studies and Production. Currently, she helps run a youth garden program in her neighborhood and is expanding her art practice into video installations and sculpture.
RESOURCES
- Amber Bishop: A Portal Somewhere Good: Who's All Over There?
- Pod Save the People
- "Can buildings be racist? A CU Boulder architect explores." by Yvaine Ye. CU Boulder Today.
- "Sweeping the Yard - African American Swept gardens of Southern USA." Pith + Vigor.
- "A lawsuit blooms in Plymouth as homeowner battles HOA over her naturally planted yard." by Chloe Johnson. The Minnesota Star Tribune.
- Black Earth Wisdom: Soulful Conversations with Black Environmentalists by Leah Penniman
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Apocalypse Still by Leah Nicole Whitcomb
About the Boy by Leah Nicole Whitcomb
Between Us (pre-order) by Leah Nicole Whitcomb
SOCIAL MEDIA
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This podcast was created, hosted, and produced by Dani & Leah.
Our music was created by Ghrey, and our artwork was designed by Bianca.
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Transcript
Introduction to Hoodoo Plant Mamas
00:00:01
Speaker
Hoodoo plants, mamas. Get your soul fed and your spirit ridden.
Magic, Ancestors, and Land Connection
00:00:10
Speaker
This here in the trend, I possessed the power from way back when.
00:00:15
Speaker
Back when folk was stripped from all of their kin, so they had to find the magic within. Ancestors, they gather my urge. I conjure it, my ulcer.
00:00:26
Speaker
Hoodoo plants, mamas.
00:00:33
Speaker
We just out here trying to water our plants and mind our business, you know? Everybody from the deep south, man. Everybody can't have a culture like us.
Guest Introduction: Amber Bishop
00:00:45
Speaker
Hey, y'all, and welcome back to another episode of Hoodoo Plant Mamas. I'm your co-host, Leah Nicole. And I'm Dani B. And today we are joined by Amber. Amber, would you like to introduce yourself? Hi, I'm Amber Bishop. I'm an artist from Ohio. Hi. Very excited to be here. Well, before we get into the episode, let's start with a check-in.
Art Exhaustion and Recovery
00:01:05
Speaker
Amber, how are you feeling today? I'm feeling good being here. I'm very excited. i think this week has been a little bit like very slow. been very tired this week. I've been doing like a lot of art stuff this month and last month, so I think I'm just like coming down from that. So I've been trying to recover.
00:01:21
Speaker
yeah What about you, Leah? I really feel that trying to recover. Tengo dolor, pero estoy aquí.
Hosts' Personal Check-in
00:01:30
Speaker
That's for Dani because she's practicing Spanish. Yeah, I am making it. I'm dealing with some back pain right now. So yeah, but I'm thankful to be in conversation with you. Always thankful for our guests.
00:01:46
Speaker
Our guests, we just feel like ex extension of community for us. It's like, building bridges with folks who are doing really important work in their communities in whatever way that looks like. So I'm excited for that. I think I just kind of went into gratitude. So... Yeah, I'm thankful for you being here today. Thankful what our conversation is going to be.
Gratitude for Land Stewards
00:02:08
Speaker
Leah, what are you thankful for today? Today, I'm going to say I'm thankful for land stewards. That has been a lot of what we've been talking about this season is about Black environmentalism.
00:02:21
Speaker
And so I'm just thankful for the people who have been doing the work of tending to the land. What about you, Amber? I think i'm very thankful for... It's not nature, but I think I'm very thankful for like all the Black people who are doing very like creative stuff on the internet, who are trying to like imagine what to do with the technology.
Amber's Project Inspiration
00:02:40
Speaker
a lot of people I follow, they use a lot of nature. So I think I'm always very excited about how like I see Black people trying to weave nature into like using the the technology really ethical. It is very interesting. And I think it's a testament to like just where we are and what we have access to and just yeah, figuring out how to weave that together in ethical ways. So Amber interviewed us for her installation for Akron Soul Train, a portal somewhere good. Amber, can you share where the idea for this project came from and the process of bringing it to life? Yeah, so my mind is like, my ideas are not very linear. So it definitely is like simultaneous different things happening and connecting as I'm like going through the process. But I definitely think one of the jumping off points
00:03:27
Speaker
was listening to my mom just tell me about some of my like grandmothers, like my great-great-grandmother, particularly in like their relationships
Family Stories and Migration Impact
00:03:36
Speaker
to like plants. Because at some point in her childhood, she got to grow up with like her grandparents. Because like in Cleveland, they have like two family houses. don't know y'all do it in Chicago or like in Mississippi, but i don't know. It's weird how they built the houses, but there's like they're splitting away where like you know people can live above you and below you. But she got to live in the house with her great-great-grandma from Alabama and then her grandparents from Alabama who also came up after my grandparents migrated up here. And she was just telling me about how one of my grandmothers had like houseplants that they like responded to her and they were like, they could move without, you know, her touching them and stuff like that. And I just was like super excited about that and about like what's up with like Black Americans and like our spiritual practices and stuff because I think a lot of stuff is very unsaid. So I think I got, that was like a compass for me. I also think I had learned about like hoodoo around that time. So I was also just very interested in like us, like culturally, what were we doing that hasn't really been named in the mainstream or at least in like maybe my
Project Development and Escape Desire
00:04:35
Speaker
generation. And then I think the portal particularly happened when I was in like grad school, that idea kind of got more
00:04:43
Speaker
defined because I wanted so badly to quit grad school. Like I was so tired of it. And I kept saying like, Oh God, I just want like go lay down somewhere, like go somewhere good and lay down. Like, I just wish I could go somewhere else. And so I think that's when I started to build the idea up a little bit more, like de define it a little bit more. And I was like going outside a lot because like, that was, I feel like the only thing that was like my saving grace while was trying to finish my MFA. so yeah, i think that's how it it started and it's evolved since then. I think I started working on the portal somewhere good in like 2022 and I've just been like tweaking adding to it and I think this iteration that y'all got interviewed for was, I was thinking a little bit more about African-American garden design and like just that whole practice of like how Black people see, Black Americans like see objects and trying to like do placemaking with like maybe not
00:05:37
Speaker
a lot of money with like limited resources and stuff like that. And like how maybe there's like a spiritual energy to not just outdoors, but like the objects and stuff that we touch and like move around and all that. So that's kind of how the idea got started and where it is right now. I love that. And I feel that about when I quit graduate school. oh my gosh.
00:05:55
Speaker
One of the things you asked us is about how we witnessed our family in nature growing up.
Nature Memories and Family Practices
00:06:02
Speaker
And you talked a little bit about this in thinking about where this idea for the project came from. I'm interested to know, do you have an early defining moment or memory, like something to do with your family and the natural world that has really impacted you, whether it was something you directly witnessed or from like some oral storytelling in your family, like some stories that have been cast down. I don't think there was like a defining moment, but I think there's just like an energy around how I maybe saw people deal with nature in my life.
00:06:36
Speaker
family like in general because I feel feel like where I grew up like my neighborhood maybe not now because they like keep putting sidewalks in and taking down trees but it was very woodsy in the area where my grandma's house was and I feel it was just kind of this idea of like we don't really play with nature in the sense of like you know when it gets dark outside let's come in let's not just be like hanging out at night in like the dark and all that stuff like that. So I think I understood it was something to like have reverence for and maybe like respect and also be like cautious about. I would also say like, I know it's like, it's like so chill, but like, I feel like some of the defining moments too is just like, maybe just me being outside with my cousins all the time and like having to pass through trees to like maybe get to like my aunt's backyard or back between my aunt's and my grandmother's backyard. Cause my aunt literally lived on the other street from my grandma. you could just walk through the grass. I think it was like memories like that or like looking up at the sky at night and it just being so dark and like I could like hear owls or something or like I don't know it's just like I feel like it's just like the scene the scenic like landscape I was in or something like I feel like that was what was kind of defining and I don't feel like people had like resentment towards it or anything like it just would it like we didn't have a problem with it so i don't know if that was like what really stuck out to me.
00:07:50
Speaker
That this was just like super normal and this is what we did and this is like where we lived at. That walking through trees to get to a family member's house is so southern coded. Like, because yeah a lot of families in the south, especially like the more rural you get, everybody's just kind of in a cluster of like.
00:08:10
Speaker
I don't know. You can't even call it neighborhoods, but it's like, yeah, she lived down the road or yeah, she lived just through that little trail through the woods and it's like your grandma's house and then your aunt lives in a trailer all the way down the hill. It's just... So I love that. Something that came up for me during this interview was the shift from fearlessness to trauma surrounding nature. And I know for me, like as a young child, I talked about picking and eating wild fruit and exploring the forest barefoot with no fear of snakes and And I think it's because part of me wasn't even aware that anything bad could happen.
00:08:46
Speaker
To now, as an adult, being very cautious around nature, it made me wonder not only about the shift, but also the question of inherited trauma. Because in Mississippi, especially, there is trauma in the trees.
Fear of Nature and Southern Trauma
00:09:00
Speaker
And I had to learn about it to really start to see it and be aware of it. It was not something that was innate to me. And so I kind of think the fear of nature is something that we learn.
00:09:12
Speaker
And I'm wondering if that maybe came up in your discussions with other participants. I would say so so. somebody I recently interviewed, their name is Miles E. Johnson. They're like a writer and they're on a podcast too, actually, possibly the people on Crooked Media, I think. But They were talking about that, yeah, like one of their defining moments was they was playing with some white boy and I guess they got swarmed by bees. And I think it was kind of like the formation that the bees took that kind of like like resonated with them. So I think what they were saying was that they realized that it wasn't like this quiet, docile thing, like nature, you know, let their presence be known and it's like a force in itself. you know, you can love it, but also like, you know, have some type of like caution or like respect towards it. And, you know, it can like, there's like consequences. So I think that was a big one was that it's just such a strong, you know, clearly like a strong force in the world.
00:10:08
Speaker
i think for other people, when I was talking to them, a lot of it was so wrapped in like time they spent with their family. i don't think there was like In terms of like their childhood, I think a lot of it was like a lot of joy, honestly, around it. I remember somebody saying that they, and I think I mentioned this to y'all, they felt like they noticed children were so much more open to dealing with trees and stuff and like playing around them. And then like kind of as you get older, they felt like adults get very cautious about trees.
00:10:39
Speaker
And I find that happened to me too, because we have this like huge maple tree by our house. And I felt like we used to do everything under that tree. Like that was truly like me and my my cousins used to hang under there all the time. And now I don't really go by it. And I'm always like, please don't fall on us during like a storm or something. So it's very interesting, like the shift or whatever, like how you start to realize that it can like also hurt you your or you just get scared about, you just, you just focus like more on like the bad things than the good things and yeah I don't even know where that comes from but I feel like I've gotten like I'm just an overly cautious person so even as a child i was always like something on my leg is the that so I wasn't as easygoing but I think what I've noticed just interviewing people is that there's definitely a shift there's definitely like a don't want to say a respectability to how you deal with nature but like things that seem more like mature like it's not just like I'm hanging around trees and talking to them it's like I'm gardening or I'm like um
00:11:36
Speaker
it's not so, don't want say silly, but it's not like very childlike anymore. It's very like, it's a means to something like I'm going to grow food or I'm going don't know, to be like a homesteader. It's not like just, just for the sake of hanging out there a lot of times. It might be so that like, I can like get through this like stressful moment or this anxiety, like it's very functional.
00:11:58
Speaker
don't know that makes sense. It's just like super modern the way I think people deal with it now. would say like more intentional. Yeah, yeah, very intentional. And like, it seems like it serves not just productivity, but it just serves like, don't know if it serves like modern elements. don't know. That's like, I'm not sure if I'm explaining that right. But yeah, it's definitely way more intentional.
00:12:18
Speaker
And it's like used now to work with like people's adult problems. Yeah. It kind of reminds me a conversation we just had with someone else we recently interviewed about imagination and children versus older folks. And even thinking about imagination when it comes to like the natural world, like older, more wise folks, adults, they're thinking about the land in terms of survival, how we take care of ourselves, how we take care of each other. Children might be thinking of it in more expansive, kind of like fantastical ways. But how both sort of lenses matter in a sense. So that's what that reminded me of. And it makes sense because people got to survive. And that's the history of black people in the land is even as the land was weaponized against us, finding ways to use it to take care of each other.
00:13:12
Speaker
Something that came up. for me, Midwest versus South. And has your interviews been just a mix of Midwesterners and Southerners? Or has it been, what has been the target audience before I asked the question I'm asked?
00:13:27
Speaker
So, you know, at first when I set out, I was like, I'm talking to Southerners. But then I was like, that doesn't make sense completely. Only because like, I'm from the Midwest, I should probably, and all my stuff is informed by being with people from the Midwest.
00:13:39
Speaker
It's Midwesterners and Southerners. And then like, like the, somebody I interviewed recently, they like, was like, grew up in Rhode Island, but then spent a significant part of their childhood in Georgia, and then was in like New York for a lot of their like early 20s and stuff like that. And now they live in Ohio. So it's like, I have somebody that has kind of been in different places for, you know, significant periods of time. I have people who were like in Chicago, but then also maybe spent a lot of time in the South. And then I have, I had a lot of people from like Texas I talked to. so yeah, um definitely Midwest and, and Southerners. Yeah. So then my question is what has been some differences in how they talk about like the natural world? Have, have you noticed any differences? Like even when, in terms of like family or childhood, because you kind of,
00:14:30
Speaker
talking about the trees and walking through the trees to get to an aunt's house or even that little comment you made about how they're putting in sidewalks and in chopping down the trees, which is connected to a lot of what's a lot of people are talking about who are involved in like ah environmental justice work and the fact that we need trees. We need trees to help protect us from the heat and all of that. So yeah, I'm wondering if you've seen any differences with how they are sort of responding to the questions you bring to the interview around Black folks in nature?
Regional Nature Engagement Differences
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's like subtle differences. I would say with like the Midwest, see it's hard because a lot of the people I'm interviewing, they have like a current practice dealing with like nature and stuff like that. But I would say it might just be childhood stuff and like in terms of how much access does somebody have to nature like most often?
00:15:26
Speaker
So like, for instance, like, and I interviewed like older people too. So I feel like they were just like dealing with everything a little bit differently. And like, maybe just from like a more like, like rural area first and foremost. And then the younger people were like more like suburbs or like the cities and stuff like that. But um I would say with the Midwesterners, what is the difference? I think it's like the access to maybe green space and like how they had to go about reclaiming it Because it seemed like,
00:15:56
Speaker
their relationship to nature, it might not have been like as strong in childhood. Like they knew that people in their family might have did certain stuff, but like maybe they were like, like somebody I talked to, they were just in the city, so they weren't really thinking about it as much.
00:16:11
Speaker
um And then they made like a conscious decision as they got older to like do more and to like tackle it. So I feel like I saw that a little bit with people who were in the city. I think in Cleveland, the people I've talked to who are from like the Cleveland area, it's a little bit tricky here because like this like was called tree city. So like, I think there's like more trees and like nature everywhere. So I think, and we have like hella Metro parks and everything. So it just seemed like with like Midwesterners in Cleveland, it just seemed like their grandparents were super into it. And then they were like a lighter version and then their next generation didn't do anything but yard work maybe against their will.
00:16:49
Speaker
So i don't know. And I also think more people kind of started to, and I'm thinking about the Midwesterns I talked to. I think the yard seemed to be like more of an obsessive focus, like where a lot of people maybe directed their energy and like trying to kind of like, I don't know. I think some people like tie their virtue to their yards and how nice they look. Like, I don't know. And then I think with the Southern people, the the thing I noticed maybe was like the plants and stuff that people had.
00:17:18
Speaker
in the yards were different. Like a lot of people in Texas had, um, my angel, is it angel trumpets or something like that? And like African violets, I think was the name. So I think, yeah, I think the plants that people had um the two regions were very different. Like what people saw, like, uh, like repetitively through black households were kind of different. Some of the Southerners I talked to, um,
00:17:42
Speaker
I will say like maybe their childhoods were nature. It seemed a little more vivid because they were truly like smack dab living in it. So yeah, I think it seemed a little bit more vivid for some of the Southerners I talked to. So a few years ago, I wrote this poem called The Drive to Ponce de Leon Park because I was driving through this affluent neighborhood and each of these houses were huge they were million dollar homes their yards were like pristine and perfect and it looked very cookie cutter to me and when I was walking around the park I was reading the signage and it was talking about we need to preserve this land and this water but then you see these big houses on the water and then you see these big old boats in the water and I'm like and who does the land and the water need to be preserved from
00:18:33
Speaker
So I'm looking at like the people who are causing this damage, but then they have this PR campaign like, oh, we got to save, we got to preserve nature because it looks nice. And it it was this idea that like nature is only precious when it looks a certain way.
Black Community Yards vs. European Aesthetics
00:18:50
Speaker
And so in our discussion, we talked about Black folks yard styles and how we often see Black people having more utilitarian approach to nature. Like if we have a yard, we're making a garden. It's not like the yard has to be pretty or if there are like flowers in the garden, like
00:19:10
Speaker
decorative flowers, there's also a food garden, or things like that. And so it's not so much about the yard has to be pretty and pristine, has to look untouched and perfect. But it's about a yard being practical. So I agree with you, I think,
00:19:27
Speaker
it very much is a difference because like, and I think I noticed it too, just as a child, because like I, so I grew up in a white city, but I was in like a black neighborhood within the city. So like when I left it, different vibes when you come down off the hill and you go into like the city and see all the white people. And when I think about like yards, white people, whoever else is like going with that aesthetic. And I think about those jars, it's just like a lot of hard lines and like It's very intentional down to like literally like the grass blade. Like I'm only growing like Kentucky bluegrass or something like that, which is not good for the environment. And what I'll say about, especially when I was younger and it was like more of the older people still like alive and living in the neighborhood.
00:20:10
Speaker
i think what I noticed and how I think about it now in my like adult brain is that with black yards some of the ones I've seen think the it just I think like the presence of the people living there is felt it's like this yard is actually like people are living in it and just using it so like you said it's not just for looks it's like practical too and think there's just like a more organicness to the organization to the design of it and like where flowers and like bushes are placed or like if I like go around my neighborhood feel like some of the
00:20:42
Speaker
the aspects of people's jars is that like, I'm just gonna let this grow here. Like, this is fine. I'm gonna let this like do this thing and like, work with it. Or like, I see some people like some of the to me, some people's like fences in my neighborhood are just like trees and stuff like that is a natural fence. And then they might like have a fence to add to it or something like that. So I think it's like,
00:21:01
Speaker
yeah, working in tandem, that's something I've noticed. And it's just, it's interesting too, to see like people have different approaches because then there's other people who are clearly going more for like the European style and they're like chopping trees down for like aesthetic reasons, which really hurts my soul. I really, i really hate to see it. And I think it's like watching my neighborhood keep getting like change, like changing hands because it's kind of being gentrified and different like generations are moving in and different like races are moving in. It's just like, you can, you can see who,
00:21:31
Speaker
Like I can see when somebody isn't Black because of like the way the yard is even set up or even like the fence they have because the fence looks like Fort Knox. like Whereas like when I was growing up, people didn't really have fences. And if they did, they were like perimeter fences because I don't think anybody was trying to like hide themselves away from each other.
00:21:47
Speaker
so yeah, it's weird because like I sometimes have a hard time trying to articulate like black yards, but it's such a feeling and like a vibe of like, what is the like design trying to suggest to the people? Like come in or stay away from here. Don't walk on this grass. Don't touch anything. Like it's just, it's just interesting. Like what you feel when you like look at each yard. I'm thinking about my neighborhood particularly, but Yeah, I think some yards are like trying to be beat into submission and like everything's supposed to look orderly and like this is, it's very weird, but i definitely wish people would maybe start using yards in a way that is like more harmonious with like nature and everything like that and isn't like a like water sucking like type of aesthetic because I'm thinking about the yards you were talking about and it just sounded like it's just like a lot of water being wasted to keep like their their grass green and I think
00:22:39
Speaker
just when I've been like researching and stuff and like people have them like I think they call like are they called sweep yards or something like that but I think it's a lot of dirt and like really flat dirt and then you can kind of like sweep it and just like move it around or something like that I might be explaining it wrong but I thought that was an interesting like yard style where like maybe the like kind of green it just like off on the side and then uh the way you it's like almost like you walking on the dirt is what keeps it kind of like it's a not a patio but like it's kind of like a functional place to hang out or something because like people are like living on that platform. So it's kind of being transformed into like a floor.
00:23:16
Speaker
um But yeah, I'm on a tangent, but yeah, i can definitely tell like the difference between yards and like what people are kind of like valuing. And I think they are kind of political at this point, like how you're the aesthetic choices you're making for like your yard and everything.
00:23:33
Speaker
And I think a lot of the aesthetic choices in the United States we're making around yards is you're very European. It's like very like colonizing, you know, we've been colonized. So it's really interesting. So that's one reason why I do appreciate African American garden design.
00:23:48
Speaker
I think there's a lot of lessons in like how you're seeing what is perfect and what should be and what shouldn't be. And like, what is the point of like objects and stuff and like reusing things and everything like that. Like there's a lot of like recycling, upcycling type of like practices, like in that aesthetic. I love that. And that question when you asked us had me thinking a lot about that. Even you're right. Like it is political. I think it signals something about who does and doesn't belong, but it also sort of, even what you said about, it seems like people are trying to beat yards into submission
00:24:26
Speaker
Because it's just reminding me of like that control and that it's submission that whiteness is just obsessed with.
Gentrification and Cultural Loss
00:24:33
Speaker
There was a story. i forgot who did it and I probably could Google it and find it and put it in the show notes. But this lady, i don't know if it was the HOA or like a neighbor called the city on her because she decided to stop manicuring her yard and letting the natural species of that space grow.
00:24:56
Speaker
It was beautiful, was lush, all these wildflowers that we get taught are like weeds that need to be killed. and it was just like, even policing, like it it really is now, it's political, it's down to policing, wanting to control, wanting people to like be sort of conformed to some set view of what should be normal.
00:25:22
Speaker
and what is pure and what is superior. And that's what that reminded me of because I do think it's attached to that. And what we would call in my town, you had like people that lived in the country and then you had people that live uptown, which is to somebody that don't live in the South, they like it all look country to me, but it was different because uptown was like the city-ish part of the town. And even those neighborhoods, yeah, people didn't have fences. Most of the time you knew your neighbor, they was related to you. And it wasn't when the kids are playing, they playing in everybody yard. Like we are, it's all our yard. You know what I mean? And so even thinking about that, that sort of like freedom and sort of communal way of living that is just very black. And I think that gentrification that you're talking about with people coming in and putting up their fences, that's the big thing I see with people, especially people from New York. when they talk about it and put up these videos is about people moving into these neighborhoods and didn't want to police the traditions of the community.
00:26:26
Speaker
New Orleans as well. Like there was a big protest because somebody moved into some part of New Orleans and decided to call the police on this restaurant that had like, uh, for the noise, apparently there was music or something that's usually played and somebody decided, well, they don't want to hear that no more, you know, like just killing the culture of the community.
00:26:49
Speaker
um and so yeah that yard thing is really i have to look up and see if some people have wrote written an essay or something on that because that is a really poignant thing to like think about when it comes to like black yards versus non-black yards colonized yards you know what I mean and just like how that's all wrapped up yes I really appreciate you saying that too that like y'all used to play in each other's yards because i think yeah watch my neighborhood get transformed into like I keep saying it's like, i feel like this has become like, ah like a very Western, super, like maybe Northern neighborhood. Cause I do feel like my neighborhood was put in for like low income housing for Chrysler. And I do think a lot of the people who like kind of started in the neighborhood were from the South. So that's why I do think my neighborhood is like a little microcosm of that.
00:27:38
Speaker
Just how it's even like designed and like Where the houses were placed, the style of houses, because I think some these houses were built by the literal people. And to see the fences come up and to see like the white people, like we were in our Facebook group battling about this dude was mad because some people walked through his yard and he wanted to call the police because they weren't like that sorry about it.
00:28:00
Speaker
And it was funny. My family was in there like arguing under the post and stuff, but it was just funny because it's like, I was, I think I said like, it's a cultural thing. Like we have been walking through people's yards for decades and there's always somebody who's like, don't walk on my grass, but like, that's just what you do in my neighborhood. You cut through the yards when there used to be like more woods, like that's just what you did. So it is like very frustrating to like see if people want to like call the cops on you or like my cousin started arguing with her white neighbor because She didn't, there was a grapevine growing and she didn't like something my cousin was doing with it, but it was my cut it was on my cousin's property side. And then they were fighting. I think my cousin ended up cutting it down and they called the police on her because it was just, it was over a plant though. That wasn't even the white people, the white family's plant. But it was just, it's just interesting when you have to start dealing with stuff like that when that was never really the vibes up here. And now it's like, everybody has cameras and like the fences are going up and it's it's wild to see.
00:28:56
Speaker
And you can see it all through the yards and like the houses and stuff. Like you mentioned, Leah, when we were talking about Black Earth Wisdom, which is our guiding text for the season, white people do not own the land and yet they still think they do and will try to police it by literally calling the police or the city over a grapevine, sweetie.
00:29:17
Speaker
Over a grapevine, anywhere, well, with the way the environment is going, you could go down ah somewhere in the deep south, in the deepest part of Mississippi and find a muscadine bush for free.
00:29:30
Speaker
And y'all trying to call the police about that? Yeah. Yeah, that's wild. I want to go back to something interesting. you said, Dani, about policing nature, because I think it's not just about policing nature for humans. I think a lot of it is like, you're also creating a hostile environment for the butterflies, for the insects, for all the animals. And like you were talking about with that woman who grew the wildflowers, like she's creating a habitat for
00:30:01
Speaker
the animals and the land around her. But it's like when you have to beat, when you have to police your garden, especially with like HOAs and things like that, the HOA literally a nature police.
Policing Nature's Impact
00:30:15
Speaker
by its When you have to police your garden in that way it's or your yard in that way, it's just like you're not only creating this sort of like really manufactured landscape, you're also creating something that's very hostile for all the living things around you um agreed yeah and I feel very empty when I because like there's a part of my neighborhood that got like redeveloped and like these like newer homes got put in and I do feel so empty when I look down there because when I think about and that's the place where I said I used to like pass through like bushes and trees like maybe get to like one of my family members houses And to see it now, like, it's just these really big, it's like a development. And I just feel so empty. Like, the the trees from my childhood, they're kind of like, don't know, there's some nature, like, around it. But to see what it looks like now compared to what it used to look like is just so, it's just, i don't know I just feel empty. It's just a lot of sharp lines.
00:31:13
Speaker
lot of sharp lines, you know, very clean lawns because, it you know, it was built in, like, 2024, It's, yeah, don't I felt very soulless. i don't know. It's just, it's weird. There's nothing there. It's grief. Yeah. For that to be the place that raised you and healed you and healed your family, like something was stolen. Like, I'm still thinking about the comment you made about them putting down those sidewalks and taking up the trees. And it's like,
00:31:37
Speaker
Them trees y'all is y'all community. And like people killing your community. they literally You're literally taking these living things that we got used to. Even if as a kid you wasn't like talking to the trees and like, you know, whatever.
00:31:51
Speaker
that You felt it as you walked through. Like this was a part of the life of this place. And so that emptiness, yeah, it's the grief because something was stolen from y'alls and continue to be stolen because the fact that you...
00:32:06
Speaker
This kind of stuff that I'm ready to fight because not you calling the police on my sister about a damn grapevine girl that don't even bo belong to you. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's violent. It's violent, for real. And it's so much overlap with our conversation we just had with someone about the ways that, like, this shit steals from us on so many levels. It steals from our imagination. It steals from our, like, just access to what nature does for us health wise, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, I appreciate you for saying that. I wanted to piggyback off something you said um about like, you get used to seeing these living things in your community. And so you grieve it. And it reminds me when I was like nine or 10, I lived in the country And right across from me, they cleared the entire land because logging is really big in Mississippi. It's how a lot of people make money. They cleared the entire land. And I remember just coming home from school and like these trees that had been there for years, it's just gone. Like it's just dirt. Now it's grown back. But like, no, that was that was definitely like grieving, grieving.
00:33:22
Speaker
this because you're just used to seeing it there now it's just gone yeah it's a um yeah I don't know if there's like a word in English for that phenomenon other than grief but yeah seeing like nature that you are like you're used to being around like removed it's just it's wild like I can't even there was a tree there was a tree I remember when I we used to walk in the summer and it used to be like because you know you out in the scorching sun but then there's like okay when we hit this spot we don't get under some shade for a second and when I saw somebody take that tree down and I think they took it down for like so they could put a fence up or so they could put a pool in their backyard
00:33:57
Speaker
I still like, don't know. I just really enjoyed that tree. And I feel like it was one of those trees that maybe had like peas hanging. I don't know what that tree is called, but there's like this one tree see in my neighborhood where like the leaves are like heart shaped, but then they have like a, some type of like of a pea plant or something, something like that, a bean, something growing off of it. But yeah, very painful.
00:34:15
Speaker
Ooh, we could, we could talk. That's a whole episode. We could talk about the trees and the disrespect for, for these people, for people. Although, but for these beings that are literally our friends and protecting us from the heat of the sun, you know.
00:34:39
Speaker
Let's get into some ways you can support the Hoodoo Plant Mamas.
Supporting the Podcast
00:34:42
Speaker
One is through our bookshop where you can buy the books that we've discussed with our Writing the Spirit guests. We have a Hoodoo Beginner's Guide, Tarot and Oracle decks, as well as our top reading picks. You can also buy Leah's books.
00:34:56
Speaker
Every purchase you make helps support our show. Check us out at bookshop.org slash shop. slash hoodooplantmamas or click the link in our show notes our patreon is currently paused but other ways you can support us include rating and reviewing this podcast on spotify and apple podcasts follow us on instagram at hoodooplantmamas you can donate via cash app cash tag hoodooplantmamas or our paypal hoodooplantmamas at gmail.com let's get back to the show
00:35:31
Speaker
So my question is, I'm wondering how this project, as you continue to engage with it and connect with these different Black folks and talk to them, has it expanded how you think about the natural world or has it expanded your relationship? I'm just thinking about maybe the themes that have come up that have surprised you or even challenged you in meaningful ways. Honestly, like when I like came out grad school, like i like I worked on this when i was like kind of wrapping grad school and then like maybe maybe like the year after, and then I took a little break to just do a health stuff. And so like getting back into it this like last year, it has definitely like woken a lot of stuff up in me. I think I like just forgot how much like,
00:36:16
Speaker
i was I was like, oh, you were on to some things in life, but then you took a little detour, you forgot to, like, keep up with this, like, work and stuff like that, but I think just talking to so many different people about it, I definitely think just in terms of, like, Black, our family stories, I guess, Black people talking about their stories, it's really interesting, like, how nature can kind of be, like, um ah entry point, but, like, a more, a non-threatening entry point to, like, kind of lift, like, that veil of silence up that is, like,
00:36:45
Speaker
ah like around our family
Nature's Role in Ancestral Connection
00:36:46
Speaker
stories. So I feel like I know my grandmas and stuff like that because I never got to meet them. They, I like, you know, it was born way after they passed, but to even be able to like know so much about them through just like how they dealt with like the outdoors and stuff is really interesting. and I feel like I'm getting like a deeper aspect of their personality than just them being like a mother or like somebody's mom in the family. so I think that was a really interesting thing I learned when I first started doing this. I think something else that I've, like, thought about just recently was, like, oh, this really isn't, like, a joke, like, this isn't really just, like, fluff, this is, like, real serious, because i just think the world has changed very significantly since, like, i started it, and, like, the interest started, versus, like, even now and today, and just, like, everything I'm seeing happening with the environment, and, like, AI and all this stuff, and, like, people's, like,
00:37:36
Speaker
regard to their environment. I think I've like learned since like working on this that like people really do have like a deep disconnect and like almost like just like not like a lot of emotional ties to it. I think like developing my relationship to nature in tandem with like my family stuff, I think it's all very emotional to me. But I think for some people, they just don't, I don't think it's like a big deal for everybody. And I think I'm like, oh, I really do want it to be a big deal for everybody. Like you don't have to hike, you don't have to go, what are they be doing out there, parasailing and like climbing, free climbing. Like that's not me. So that's something I think I also had to grapple with is like that is not how I engage with nature. I'm very much, I let us sit outside and watch a tree blow in the wind. Like that's me.
00:38:19
Speaker
But I think like people really do need to find their place with that because it literally is like not really a separation. like You're one and the same. So I think that is something I'm like, it's actually like dire for for humans, and especially the newer generations who I feel like are losing very fundamental skills to be a human. like I've just noticed that the younger kids are like struggling.
00:38:41
Speaker
They're like not getting like the things that make you human. I don't know. I don't know explain it, but it's just something I'm seeing where it's like not going through process and being able to sit undisturbed by like this type of technology is like really I think affecting everybody especially the youngest people um and I think like also because I was like in Wisconsin like a couple weeks ago like in the cut somewhere at an art residency and I think it also just reminding me of like it is a really powerful effect
00:39:12
Speaker
um when you're out in like the deep woods like really there's like not a lot of artificial light it's just like you really are out in nature because I haven't done that in a long time and as like I'm in my neighborhood and it's becoming and it's starting to look like a very manicured suburb i feel like I'm losing like that I'm in the woods type of feeling anymore so I think going to like the for real woods has been very um Elisa Mourad- illuminating to be in that much made nature and to really feel like you're covered in trees because like Wisconsin is kind of like the driftless region or something that's what they were telling me and like there weren't glaciers there or something i'm giving you all like a ah paraphrase of a paraphrase but. it's a lot of hills. So it's like, I mean, like hills, like you just look out it's just hills everywhere. And it's like people live in the valley of the hill. And then the hill is like full of trees or something like the hills are so big, you might think they're a mountain. And it was just interesting being in that environment, don't really have cell phone reception. And i just think what I remember being around all those trees and stuff and like the cows and everything, i was like, oh, I'm like a very emotional person. And I'm very like,
00:40:16
Speaker
And I also felt like I was alive again. Like I felt very alive when I was like in that environment. And yeah, it like really lit something up inside of me. And I'm like, oh, wow. Like you, like nature really is like, it really can do this big one for you. You got to remember that. So I think it was just like a a re-remembering going through this um journey of like making this project and like still working on it. It's just like trying to remember stuff, trying to like bring it into like the adult life. I think I have like a lot of,
00:40:47
Speaker
anxiety and stuff that I deal with. So sometimes I like believe I don't have time to like be outside and like really doing nature-ish things and stuff like that. And so I think even the last year has been me trying to get that to like really be like solidified in my mind that like it's a no negotiation to like really have these type of things in your life, like these type of practices and like being outside and doing doing whatever it is I do to like commune with nature. Like I'm trying to like get there I also think particularly with like plants and like houseplants and stuff like that, it is like to me right now, like like a litmus test of like where I
Generational Connections with Nature
00:41:24
Speaker
am in terms of like being grounded, because I still think I'm too like ungrounded to take care of plants and stuff like that. Just going through grad school and just like all that, like stress and everything like that. So I feel like I'm also using it as like a cue for like what's going on with like my body and like how I'm reacting to stuff. And I feel like the longer, like, for instance, I can, like, sit outside, I feel like I'm, like, doing better in terms of, like, stress and, like, my nervous system and stuff like that. So I definitely think me when I was, like, 18 and younger was not doing this stuff. So I definitely think it's way more of a tool and something I really try to, like, use to understand myself better. and And I feel like I get a lot of, like, spiritual downloads, too, when I'm, like, on my nature stuff. So, yeah, I think that is what the project has brought to me. And then I also think it also has shown me that Black people have very, very similar generational experiences with nature. Like I think a lot of us have like elders and ancestors who
00:42:21
Speaker
gave us some type of like some type of knowing with that or have passed something down to us or model something to us in terms of how to deal with nature. It's just about trying to remember it and figure out how it works for you. But I think there's a lot there on that topic. And I think everybody should explore it a little bit more.
00:42:37
Speaker
I would also just say that like in terms like spiritual stuff I think a lot of people have been like called to go back and like work with nature like a lot of the people I was talking to who like had any type of like gardening practice herbalism whatever get into hoodoo or whatever feel like a lot of them had they felt like they got called to do it um so who have like literal dreams and stuff but I think that's interesting too to see people in like the last decade being pushed towards like Working with nature more and all that. So I noticed that too. Something you said around, like when you were encouraging people to like, you don't got to go hiking or anything.
00:43:13
Speaker
This kind of goes back to of thinking about who is controlling the narrative around what it looks like to be in nature and how, you know, black folks have always challenged that because. We don't really now it's shifting and changing because there's also this thing with us not feeling welcome and not being safe in certain spaces because of who has taken control over the narrative and also taking control over the spaces because they think they own the trees. But it's like, yeah, our aunties and grandmamas and stuff, even in Mississippi, they spent years picking cotton. They don't want to be out in the woods hiking, but they sat on the porch. That's being in nature. I'm sorry because the kids not sitting on the porch all day like our aunties were with their husbands sitting right next to them, smoking a cigarette.
00:44:04
Speaker
She's sipping some tea and talking and yelling across the road to somebody else sitting on their porch, having the whole conversation like, That was being in nature too.
00:44:15
Speaker
For the last question, I did want to borrow from your interview where you ended on Black ecological
Vision of Sustainable Futures
00:44:24
Speaker
futures. And so for me, I had talked about like for our ecological futures, what I dream of is a return to villages made of mud huts. I had, i was ranting about this to Danny the other day.
00:44:40
Speaker
about how now earth homes, quote unquote, are things that like white environmentalists are being like, oh my gosh, these, this great technology that's good for the environment, that's super sustainable, that's fireproof, that's all these things. And it's just like, oh, I wonder if someone else did that before. I wonder if you said those were savages.
00:45:04
Speaker
And that's why they deserve to be enslaved and stuff. But you know, they never talk about that history. But anyway, I do want to see a return to villages. I want to see mud huts. I want to find ways to live in harmony with the land for our housing, for our energy, for our food production, right?
00:45:24
Speaker
Find ways to quit being harmful and start being helpful. So for the two of you, what is your ecological dream for the future? I think about this a lot, actually. And yeah, it really resonated with me when you said stop being harmful and try to be helpful. And yeah, I think that's like a big one is like the stuff that we do going forward is like absolutely helpful. um I think for like me and like Black people, what I'm like dreaming about is like, of course, us like either people going like returning to like the South or those places like in the Midwest that are like full of Black people and like really like
00:46:01
Speaker
redoing what's there or like improving everything for what's there. And that might be even destroying stuff. Like I would love to come back into my neighborhood, bust up these sidewalks, plant trees everywhere. And just like, I don't know, like destroy some infrastructure, improve it with all the houses that's here, like try to get them to a place where like they could work without like AC, like let's build them correctly or something like that. And then never build a ah house like this again, like a postmo ah postmodern house again, because the architecture is like very soulless.
00:46:31
Speaker
yeah, I dream of, like, Black people kind of getting back together and, like, I don't know what the right word it is, but, like, making their their spaces, wherever they are making them more, like like, green spaces. So, like, even if you're, like, in the hood somewhere or whatever, people looking at these spaces and being, like, these are, like, this is still, like, the earth and these spaces are still very much useful. We just need to, like, help it along. Because I do think, like, some points of humans is to use their creativity to, like,
00:47:00
Speaker
transform spaces. I just think right now the transformations are sometimes very detrimental to the fate of the world but I do think a gift that or like the point of like humans maybe is that they can like they have the ability but to be creative and transformative and I would love to see people look at environments and stuff now and transform stuff only in the ways that help not-for-profit and capitalism. i also just dream of like people living really close to like their loved ones and like you wouldn't dare to like cut things down and like harm things if it wasn't for the purpose of like harmony and things just like staying in balance. Cause I know you have to like cut a tree down once in while, but just not for like the goofy reasons I see people cut them down now. And then I also think of like people in my neighborhood used to say they used to like be able to like just walk around and eat fruits and stuff off the like trees and all that. Nobody like particularly like owned a tree per se, but it was like just planted all around the neighborhood. So I think I dream of that too, where like a lot of stuff is free or everything is free forever.
00:48:01
Speaker
Yeah. Access to water or, you know, how to get there. i just think like, you're not really barred from like nature and you're not really scared of it and you know it really well. Like you are really in sync with like your natural
Transforming Spaces into Green Environments
00:48:13
Speaker
environment. Yeah. And then, like I said, just black people everywhere and they, ah and they know how to live together and all that.
00:48:19
Speaker
This is dreaming. Like this is dreaming. Amen to going up in the neighborhood and busting up them sidewalks and letting the trees reclaim their space. Leah knows my dream and I keep talking about it because talking about it, that's how we make this happen. That is the dreaming, the radical dreaming that we need to be doing. And my ecological dream is being on some land with my trailer home.
00:48:47
Speaker
and my people being close to each other, everything you said, Amber, first of all, but us just being with each other, and taking care of each other, and having access to grow food, having access to the food that naturally grows, the the fruit trees and things, and Being able to assist the land in healing so much that even the natural food that it was already growing before we fucked it up will come back in addition to the things that we plant.
00:49:20
Speaker
But yeah, I think it's the biggest dream is us all being in community together. The trees, the people, the animals, and just everything being being brought back to balance, which is essentially everything that you said, that is a part of that.
00:49:38
Speaker
bringing things to balance us having access to water and trees and green space. Like, yeah. So, amen, Aishe. It's there. It's coming. Like, we and if if we keep speaking it, it's gonna it's it's already in the works. And it's going to an ugly road to it.
00:50:01
Speaker
as part of the work is going to be an ugly road because the people who think they own the trees and the literal dirt is going fight to the death for it. But they can't win because we always say like, no matter how much it tries, capitalism cannot beat nature. It is not stronger than mother nature. And literally nature will purge everything.
Episode Conclusion
00:50:30
Speaker
us especially before capitalism wins so we got this that's what I'm gonna say that's I'm gonna end it Any final thoughts before we officially end? Yeah, just thank you for having me. I've never been on a podcast before, so this was fun. and thank you so much to contributing to my project. it was It was honestly very beautiful, especially like I've had to re-listen to everything like 17 times, but it's always really lovely. And when I was like up in Wisconsin in those hills and I was listening to it, I was like, it was really serene, like when I was really taking it all in. So beautiful.
00:51:06
Speaker
And really informative. i love this podcast. I appreciate all the work you do. yeah Thank you for letting me run my mouth. I do love talking about this. I actually don't talk about this with people.
00:51:18
Speaker
Like if I'm not like working on the project, I feel like a lot of this like lives in my head or like in writing or something like that. So it's actually been really nice to try to like articulate it out. so yeah I really appreciate it letting me talk here yes and thank you for coming thank you also for interviewing us we were so glad to be a part of this no problem i think the big most impactful thing about for us with the podcast is just like talking to our community and whether you a listener or not but a lot of the times it's people we find who find us and that's just really important like
00:51:55
Speaker
That's what this is about. That's what Black spirituality should be about and something that I think we really try to stand on in the work and what we hope we are accomplishing with this podcast. But thank you so much again to Echo Leah for allowing us to be a part of your project and giving us a lot to reflect on.
00:52:17
Speaker
That's going to be it for today. We really hope this conversation fed y'all because it fed us. If you like this episode, you can like, rate, and review Who Do Plant Mamas on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. If anything from the show resonated with you, make sure to share with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at Who Do Plant Mamas. Thank you for listening and we'll see you in the next episode.
00:52:41
Speaker
Bye.