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Values match: Why it matters in your job search with Harry Urschel
55 Plays25 days ago
Learn about why matching your values to the company you are considering working for is so important while also hearing about the amazing ways God shows up during hard times.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Crossroads Career Podcast, a show where we help you hear God calling, get the right job, and maximize your potential through inspiring stories of individuals and professionals who've experienced a crossroads in their career.
00:00:16
Speaker
Well, welcome to the Crossroads Career Podcast. My name is Tim, and today we have the privilege of having Harry Urschel with us. So meet Harry. He is the recruiter extraordinaire who spent 30 years matching talent with companies like a corporate matchmaker, but with fewer awkward first dates.
00:00:36
Speaker
ah Harry helps lead the Minnesota Crossroads Career Network, where he transforms job hunting anxiety into actual employment. So ah think of him as a career whisperer, if
Harry's Recruitment Experience and Challenges
00:00:47
Speaker
you will.
00:00:47
Speaker
So Harry, welcome to the program. Tim, thank you. I'm glad to be here. Yeah, well, we're glad to have you. And, ah you know, tell us, what does life look like for you now?
00:01:00
Speaker
I never thought of myself as a career whisperer. I'm going to have to adopt that somehow. I like it. i You know, as you mentioned, I've been recruiting for over 30 years and have really loved my career.
00:01:13
Speaker
But um frankly, the things I do on a volunteer basis with Crossroads has been even more ah energizing for me. I really enjoy that a lot. But um I've started recruiting actually 38 years ago and I've recruited engineers. I've recruited IT people. I've recruited accounting and finance people.
00:01:32
Speaker
The last several years, though, has been in retained executive search. And so that's been um just literally just C-level positions at companies all over the area. And um haven't specialized in that case in specific industry or field are or a functional area, but our approach had been a little bit different. That kind of transcended that.
00:01:55
Speaker
My ah business partner, though, took an early retirement last year. And so this past year, i've my career has been much more loose and I've been working independently as a recruiter still. I have some clients that have reached out to me. I do...
00:02:12
Speaker
an extensive amount these days of ah executive outplacement coaching through a firm here locally and in the Minneapolis area. And I yeah ah do some consulting with a company that is in the job space as well. and And I do some strategic development work with them. And so it's been a real mix. and But, you know, I don't know what the rest of my year looks like. It doesn't feel real sustainable. It just has been floating in. And I'm grateful it's been a good year this past year.
00:02:41
Speaker
but, uh, I'm not sure how long that's going to sustain
Aligning Values in Job Search
00:02:44
Speaker
itself. So we'll see what, uh, the future holds on maybe looking for a job too. I don't know. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I mean, 30 years, that's a long time in HR. I mean, you've seen, um significant shifts right in the marketplace and in how people search and how people find jobs, uh, even retain searches, almost a bit of a lost art, right? Uh, you know, with all the online tools today, and you're just a number and algorithm, uh,
00:03:11
Speaker
you know, I would think that there could be it's still a great benefit in people finding people. tell me about that. Agreed. You know, I think for an awful lot of companies, it's not hard to get a lot of applicants for a job. It's hard to winnow that down to find the right person for the organization. And so, um you know, particularly at the C-level positions that they may have, it becomes a big challenge because obviously a person has to have
00:03:42
Speaker
the right experience and and knowledge and background to to do a particular job. But much more importantly, especially at that level, but at every every level, though the cultural fit, the values fit, the fit in terms of being able to form the right work relationship is so critically important.
00:04:00
Speaker
And that's where i think I've been able to help companies the most. Bring value. Yeah. Well, and it's not just for C-level people. I mean, let's talk about values. That's ah a huge one when you're talking about job seekers, right? You know, lots of people,
Interviewing for Fit Beyond Qualifications
00:04:15
Speaker
they get out of work, absolutely fear hits them, and then they just want to get the anything job, right?
00:04:21
Speaker
And then they forget about this values piece. So how how important is that in the job search compared to the other you know parameters you're looking for? You know, i I personally believe it is the most important factor in terms of success at an organization or not.
00:04:38
Speaker
um The statistics for retained executive search for C-level roles is terrible. confirms that People that are placed by firms into companies ah across the board, the average is 50 to 60 percent of those people are not in their jobs.
00:04:54
Speaker
in 18 months, within 18 months. And that's, that's awful, especially considering how terribly expensive it is. For our firm, our track record was 97% retention rate in that period of time.
00:05:11
Speaker
And ah the difference is really values. And, you know, every firm will, and recruiter will tell you that, tell a company that they try to match people to to their culture.
00:05:22
Speaker
But primarily they do um assessment tests, personality assessments, and maybe some task assessments, but it's not about personality. You can have very different personalities work together as long as they share the same values and vision of where they're going.
00:05:37
Speaker
And that doesn't get addressed very well. And there are no assessments that can really tell you, does this person really share the same values? It's really, you have to have those conversations to really get to know each other and
Career Resilience During Economic Downturns
00:05:50
Speaker
be transparent. And that's what we've primarily focused on is coaching both the employer and the candidates on how to ask better questions of each other and really get to understand who this person is, um beyond just what have they done and what can they do for us or what have they achieved?
00:06:08
Speaker
It's much more about the hows and whys than it is the ah what in the process. And as a candidate looking for a job, go ahead. Yeah, no, i was going to say the the interview process is not just one way.
00:06:21
Speaker
i think that's a misnomer, right? is is I'm looking for a job. so I'm going to be interviewed by this person. And then I come completely ill-prepared Because I don't have questions to interview them. like I don't really know what they want or the values that that company has.
00:06:39
Speaker
If they said yes and they wanted to hire me, I'd take it. It seems like it's a little backwards. Absolutely. And you know i I get it. you know I mean, sometimes people are in a financial situation that they just have to take a job right now to get a paycheck going again. And I can respect that.
00:06:55
Speaker
Yeah. but they should go into each role or company with their eyes wide open of what they're actually signing up for. And if they're not asking questions during the interview process, they really don't know. And so the best interviews, I believe, are constant dialogue, asking questions both ways, not just waiting till the end of the interview when the employer says, ah do you have any questions for us?
00:07:20
Speaker
And then you have time for one or two questions at best. It should be asking questions in both directions throughout the interview. it's ah It makes you as a candidate stand out, but you learn a lot more and can make better decisions for yourself in that process.
00:07:34
Speaker
Back to the matchmaking, right? you know Wouldn't that be weird if you were like dating someone or looking to date someone and they were the only one that was asking you questions and you you were sitting there answering everything. And at the end of the day, you're like,
00:07:47
Speaker
I have no idea who this person is because they were asking me all time. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Now, unfortunately, that sometimes does happen in dating, too, but it's ah not a good idea. And it's also not a good idea in the in the yeah employment process.
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so you mentioned that this year is a little bit different, right? You know, you're might be even looking for a job. I'm curious. And we ask most everybody this, you know, what is the, ah what is the, you know, tell us a time where you were unemployed or unfulfilled in your work. If you think back right over your 30, 40 year career, what was the time that you were either one of those two and what happened during that time?
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah. Well, my career has been, i mean, more, more, Most of the years of my career, I was self-employed with my own. I owned search firms twice, once for 10 years, once for seven years.
00:08:43
Speaker
And ah then but I in between that, I did independent consulting. I did. I worked as a full time employee for other firms and um I've been.
00:08:53
Speaker
let go. I've been fired. I've left on my own. i've ah know ah My businesses have gone up and down at different times. and And so certainly have felt the same sometimes discouragement or despair when I'm not sure what the future holds or what what happens next.
00:09:13
Speaker
And, you know, probably the most dramatic time for me by far was um I owned my own firm. for 10 years and in the middle of that was um the Great Recession from 2008 through 2010.
00:09:28
Speaker
And there the recruiting business can be brutal during recessions. And i I had been through previous recessions before, but I not never anything that deep and that long.
00:09:40
Speaker
And it was devastating to us financially, even though I ah had my own business money wasn't coming in and i was uh for ah over a year writing checks to the business to keep everything afloat and we lost virtually everything personally and for me it really became a time of seeking god like i'd never done before i was waking up at four o'clock every morning and going down um to our family room and reading scripture as much as I could take in and hours and and on the floor in prayer. And it was, it was a way that God really showed himself to me during that time. I think, you know, when we think we've got things under control, whether health wise or financially or relationally or whatever it is, it's pretty easy to,
00:10:34
Speaker
put God on the back burner and say, I'll get to you when I need you. But when you've got nothing left, when there is you don't know what else you can do, then he shows up in great ways because I think otherwise we tend to, you know, I'm a pretty resilient guy and, and always think I have another gear I can shift down to and pull myself out of whatever situation I'm in.
00:10:59
Speaker
but And so if he would do something when I'm in that state of mind, it's easy for me to say, well, I pulled that out. And i instead, I think when we've got nothing it is when he shows up and then it's his glory. He knows it's clear that nothing could have happened without him in that situation. And he did. did.
00:11:20
Speaker
He didn't provide everything we wanted or needed, but he showed up and provided, kept us from falling through the ice. probably Yeah, so you didn't go bankrupt. You were not homeless. You didn't go without a meal, correct? I mean...
00:11:35
Speaker
Right. I mean, there were times, I mean, we, frankly, I mean, it got to the point where you thought we're going to lose the house, but we didn't. And um there were times when, okay, we're going to have to make grocery and shopping trip a little lighter this week than the normal. But, and our kids were young and at home at the time. And and it was, it was a tough time.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm i'm curious about how did they see mom and dad, right? You know, they're watching you doing this. And as we know, kids are a lot more observant than we realize.
00:12:11
Speaker
So, you know, what do you think they were seeing with you guys during this transition? You know, did they see a ah mom and dad that were desperate or ah anxious? You know, what was your relationship with your wife during that time? You know, unpack that a little bit.
00:12:26
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I've I've been um this is one of the things that is such a paradox. I would never want to have to go through what we did there again. And yet I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.
00:12:39
Speaker
It was ah time of faith formation for my wife and I and for our kids. Like nothing could have happened without the circumstances we were in.
00:12:51
Speaker
It was really an incredible time of us drawing closer together. I'm incredibly blessed with my wife that she didn't see this as ah reason to be, ah to alienate herself from me or to be ah angry. It was, we're going pull together and and we're going to see God. and And we did. And our kids saw that and their own faith.
00:13:14
Speaker
And I mean, week after week, God was showing up in ways that were just so unexpected. And it was, um you know, we we would think, you know, can you imagine how this just happened that got us through another month or something? And it would blow our minds what God did. And our kids just kind of came to the point of, well, that's what God does, isn't it? And that we don't want them to take it too lightly, but they just saw how God acted in our lives and what he what he did.
00:13:46
Speaker
And ah each of them, they're all grown and I'm married now, and um I'm just incredibly grateful. Each of them are following hard after God and and have a deep faith.
00:13:57
Speaker
And it was, I believe, formed during those years more than anything else in their lives.
Spiritual Growth in Times of Unemployment
00:14:03
Speaker
And it like said, wouldn't trade it for anything. Yeah, no doubt that had a ah big impact on their faith and their little hearts, right, as you're doing that. I mean, our kids are very observant about everything. And when we put God you know first and see that transformation happen, it's significant. And they have an opportunity see God is real. And we should see this on a regular basis, right? We should be seeing miracles regularly. Like, this is the normal of the kingdom.
00:14:34
Speaker
Uh, and if you're in a job search right now and you're discouraged and not where you want to be, right. Um, this is a great time for you to dig deeper into God's word like Harry did and, uh, get in that basement, get in that family room and spend more time with God and his word, which is going to transform you and renew you.
00:14:55
Speaker
Um, And I guess, Harry, that's another great question to follow up is, is what kind of ah um practical tips would you give to people in that in that Bible study time? Right. So obviously, if you're unemployed or you have not not much going on, you have time. Right.
00:15:11
Speaker
So or supposedly you have time. So did you memorize scripture? Did you read a chapter a day? Did you do a proverb? Like tell us your routine, I guess, and how God met you there.
00:15:24
Speaker
During that time, I was hungry for the word like I'd never been before. And so I actually ended up reading through the whole Bible in three months. But it that was pretty intense. Right. But um since then, I go through ah Bible in a Year reading plan every year. And so every year since then, I've I've been through it. And as ah kind of an accountability for myself and for benefit of my family. I text, I have a group text with my kids and my in-law, my sons-in-laws and daughter-in-laws and my wife. and And I just send them a text each day of what God's showing me out of the word today. And and it's been just a great
00:16:09
Speaker
points of conversation for our family and and it keeps me focused on what God, what are you teaching me today? I think, though, you know, the thousands of people that have come through our local Crossroads group here um over the years and ah people I've encountered through my work as a recruiter, I've seen people go divergent directions with their faith during um those times of crisis in their lives. They either lean into and pursue and and seek God and in fresh new ways, or they are angry at them and alienate themselves from him or or push them away.
00:16:48
Speaker
And i think that's a tragedy when that happens, because he will walk with you and will never forsake you when we seek him. And I think leaning in get hearing from um him through his word, ah spending time in prayer, spending time just earnestly looking, you can't ah artificially make that desperation up. And sometimes I feel you know that those sweet times I had with God during that those times of desperation, I miss that to a degree, but he doesn't want us to live in desperation all the time.
00:17:23
Speaker
He wants us to acknowledge who he is and seek him. But you know There's going to be highs and lows in our spiritual fervor as as time goes on.
00:17:33
Speaker
But it's like say, it was a very sweet time from that perspective. Yeah, there's a there's a ah great book and that I like um called Hiddenness and Manifestation. So there's kind of these two seasons in life where sometimes there's hiddenness, right? And you feel like God's hidden himself from you. and And it's really that season of deep, right? Going after God, pursuing him. And maybe you don't feel him or hear him as much, but you know he's there.
00:18:02
Speaker
Right. There's there's evidence and proof that you see there. And then you have this manifestation season where everything is good. Right. Like you can't ah say no to anything. You know, contracts are coming in. Money's flowing.
00:18:15
Speaker
Relationships are good. Right. And sometimes, though, in that manifestation season, you're not as attentive to god because you're just busy right with life and success and all the stuff so i agree with you i mean some of my favorite seasons were in the hiddenness when that difficult time and the trudging it out and i remember sitting here in my office just okay god you're gonna have to bring in business what do i do you know and he would say all right just just pray And after like an an hour of praying, which seems like an eternity, then i was just twiddling my thumbs thinking, all right, what do i do next?
00:18:54
Speaker
you know And those times are really precious, though. I think back and I'm like, man, I really wish I had that time again with him. So you're absolutely right that these times i agree as a job seeker are really critical um as you're doing this, because the reality is, folks, you're not going to be unemployed forever.
00:19:14
Speaker
And we know that, right? um there's This season will pass. You will get a job and then you're going to be busy again and you're going to get into this manifestation season again, and which is going to be wonderful and great.
00:19:27
Speaker
But we don't want to miss that opportunity that you have right now um to spend another 30 minutes with God, um maybe another you know hour in the Word each day. and When we pursue him, he shows up.
00:19:41
Speaker
And once you sense that sense his presence and get that understanding that he is alive and active in your life, it changes you forever and and you can never deny him again.
00:19:53
Speaker
And I don't wish desperate times on anyone, but if that's what it takes for them to really understand who he is, then i i hope people experience that.
Staying Relevant in a Changing Job Market
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah. yeah yeah Well, you know, let's switch over to your HR hat for a moment in terms of, you know, the current market right now. There's kind of a lot going on, especially with the ah change in the political structure and the environment.
00:20:24
Speaker
um with AI going at breakneck speeds and you know the job seekers sitting there thinking, how do i stay relevant? right How do I become available for the next opportunity out there? so I guess that's the great question is what advice from an HR perspective would you have for that job seeker who's trying to figure out, you know, how do i not be replaced by AI, but complement it potentially?
00:20:54
Speaker
And what advice would you would you give to those people? Yeah, I don't know if I have great answers for that. it's ah It is difficult because it's a very quickly changing landscape. And so it's and it's still hard to predict, you know, what are those jobs that are going to be in greater demand or or are going to fall off? And um I think keeping an ear to the markets and seeing where trends are and trying to gain new Training and opportunities to do projects in areas that are growing is always a good idea, regardless of what field you're in.
00:21:26
Speaker
And um it's, a you know, i mean, frankly, one of the challenges, i mean, for decades, Young people were told, you know, learn how to code, and be a software engineer or a developer, and you're always going to have opportunities. And for the first time this past year, I've i've seen entry-level software engineers have a hard time landing jobs because the AI has replaced some of that. and And I think there's going to be additional changes. So, you know, it's...
00:21:58
Speaker
I'm not a great ah forecaster to say this is where things are going to be hot. Certainly AI is, and that's going to create jobs. But I don't think anybody has a good beat on exactly what those jobs look like yet. And so I think staying in tune to the market when you're in a job, you know, particularly people that have been in.
00:22:17
Speaker
One company for, you know, 10, 15, 20 years and been doing similar work all that time without really developing new skills are probably going to face the greatest challenges in a job search. So always try to be, even if the company doesn't give you opportunities to always try to be ah ah gaining new training and development. There's so so much free resources available online, whether it's just on YouTube or so many other places that you can get.
00:22:47
Speaker
training and courses that can keep your skills sharp and and current. That's probably great advice. You know, i think back to the changes over the last 30 years, right? You know, there was social media, right? And that whole move
00:23:03
Speaker
you know, the dot com stuff back in two thousand There's always something that is pushing innovation and pushing things. So it sounds like the advice is almost the same for job seekers. Right. Stay aware, stay educated.
00:23:17
Speaker
Right. And see how you can keep yourself relevant in the marketplace. Correct. Exactly. Exactly. It's, a you know, and you can do all the right things and still be stuck. I mean, it just is the nature of the world and, and you know, layoffs are common place and, you know,
00:23:36
Speaker
You think um you're going to be at one organization for a very long time and the average job is less than four years these days. And I know that sounds discouraging to many people, but it should also wake you up to know that I have to remain employable because, you know, I get this new job and it could happen that you stay there for the next 10 or 15 or 20 years. But it's much more likely that three to five or six years from now, you're going to be looking for something else
Building Relationships for Career Success
00:24:03
Speaker
again. And so.
00:24:04
Speaker
in order to improve both this and the next job search, you want to stay current and marketable. Yeah, that's great. So last question for you on this episode would be, you know, what advice did you get along the way in your career, right? As God was moving you and shifting you into this HR spot and then you started your own company and these kinds of things. um But thinking about some advice that was given to you that made a big difference, right? Somebody sat down with you and said,
00:24:34
Speaker
this statement and it got you really thinking, right? Or it moved you in a specific way that had a positive result. So I'm guessing you have something, right?
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah. You know, i I think I've been fortunate to have just worked with good people along the way. And I learned how to do my business in ways that are very relational. I mean, the more it touches on relationships with people, the more satisfying it's been for me. And I think the more successful I've been able to become as well.
00:25:07
Speaker
It's, uh, know, recruiting like many other businesses, uh, and people in other fields, there's the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? As that, uh, there's a lot of bad recruiters out there. There's a lot of great recruiters out there and there's everything in between. And, and sometimes the bad ones kind of tarnish the reputation of others, but, uh, um,
00:25:28
Speaker
I think there's a lot of people that do this business very transactionally. you know, it's just moving bodies in their mind or, ah you know, doing what's necessary only to get a fee.
00:25:39
Speaker
But I love building relationships and understanding what people's motivations are and how I can help them achieve their goals. And the more i dive into that, I think it's a more satisfying and better process for everyone involved, for the employers I work with, for the candidates that are looking for new jobs and certainly for me. And so, um and I think that's true in any field you're in, whether you're an accountant or an engineer or in marketing, or the more you can make it about people and relational, ah it ah becomes more satisfying, but you're going to be more successful in the long run as well.
00:26:14
Speaker
Yeah. I've had some great people I've worked with that, that did their work that way. And it really rubbed off on me. And I learned a lot from that.
Conclusion and Career Guidance Invitation
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:26
Speaker
Usually it's by osmosis, right? As we get these, this advice and these things come along in our career. Sometimes it is something that somebody says directly, but lots of times it's just over time with consistency and patience, the Lord, you know, matures you just like our spiritual walk, right? With him.
00:26:43
Speaker
So. Well, Harry, thank you so much for your time today. Just a pleasure to hear your story about how God moved in your life. And then also just encouraging other job seekers that, you know, we need to get in God's word. We need to hang out with him more during the season of unemployment or transition and that he will make a way for us.
00:27:03
Speaker
So appreciate you on the podcast today. It's pleasure. i'll always love reconnecting with you and glad to have the conversation. Looking for guidance in your career? Our Crossroads guides are ready to help.
00:27:15
Speaker
Set up a complimentary call now by visiting our website, crossroadscareer.org. Thanks for listening.