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[Client-Side Conversation] How to “Stay Top of Mind” with Chris Whitten
207 Plays24 days ago
Everyone talks about being “top of mind.” Very few people can explain how it actually happens.
Chris Whitten has seen this challenge from every angle. He’s been a freelancer looking for work, an agency producer hiring creative partners, and now an executive producer working on brand partnerships. Along the way, he’s watched thousands of photographers, directors, producers, and creative professionals try to get his attention.
Some succeed. Most don’t.
In this Client-Side Conversation, Chris shares what actually works when you’re trying to build relationships, earn trust, and create opportunities with decision-makers.
We explore how to stay visible without becoming self-promotional, what separates effective outreach from forgettable outreach, how to have a productive first conversation, and what people can do after that conversation to remain relevant when opportunities arise.
Along the way, Chris shares examples from both sides of the table, including lessons learned as a freelancer, agency producer, coach, and brand-side executive.
If you’ve ever wondered how creative professionals actually get hired, this episode offers a practical look at what gets attention, what gets ignored, and what keeps you top of mind.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Crossing the Axis'
00:00:07
Speaker
You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Keblis.
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome listeners and thank you for tuning into the show.
Staying Top of Mind in Business Development
00:00:29
Speaker
Today we're talking about something everybody in business development says they want to do, but very few people can explain how to do it well. And that is staying top of mind.
00:00:39
Speaker
That phrase gets thrown around constantly. Stay visible. Keep in touch. build the relationship, nurture the lead. Yes, these are all true, but also not very helpful if you don't know what any of that actually looks like in practice.
00:00:54
Speaker
Because staying top of mind does not start with the follow up, checking in email, or some kind of happy birthday message. It should be much more than that, and it actually starts earlier than that, like how you earn someone's attention in the first place, and then how it moves into an actual conversation. And after that conversation is when the work of staying top of mind really begins, by things like staying relevant, using your expertise to create value, and developing the relationship without becoming annoying.
00:01:23
Speaker
That's why I'm excited for today's client conversation with Chris Witten. Chris has seen business development from just about every angle. He's been a freelancer trying to win work. He's worked on the agency side, hiring creative partners, and now he's client side as an executive producer working in brand partnerships.
00:01:38
Speaker
On top of that, he coaches photographers, directors, producers, and other creative professionals on how to build better relationships, create better outreach, and ultimately find better opportunities.
Meet Chris Witten: From Photography to Executive Producer
00:01:49
Speaker
I've found that Chris brings a generous, sharp, and very human point of view to this topic, and that he believes relationships are built over time, and that outreach should be about the person receiving it, and that helping people is not just a nice thing to do, it's actually a real business strategy. So with that, Chris Witten, welcome to Crossing the Axis.
00:02:08
Speaker
James, thank you so much. That intro was awesome. Thanks for that. Did did I characterize you correctly? I think so, yeah. Anything I missed or any omissions or problems? No, it's all good. I think we'll dive in into the interview and maybe it'll sort itself out. you know I'm hoping that we can have this conversation in kind of three parts. I know it's staying top of mind and you think that's, you know like I said, you that's where people you already know them or something like that. But Oh, man, it starts way earlier in that in my mind. And so I'm going to break this down into this visibility section. Like, how do you actually get on someone's radar? This engagement idea like, OK, you have their attention. What do you do with it to get a conversation? And then after you've had that conversation, that's like, what do you do after that? That's how I was thinking about this. But before we even get into that, let's establish your point of view these days. How'd you get here?
00:02:55
Speaker
What are you doing these days? And what's shaped your point of view? My background, that i went to college so a long time ago for photography art school in Savannah, Georgia called Savannah College of Art Design and thought I was going to be an artist.
Chris's Early Experiences in Advertising and Transition to Production
00:03:10
Speaker
And then I think I took a commercial advertising class his senior year and our professor put some film up and it was a picture of a Heineken bottle. And she said she got paid, I think something like $35,000 to take that picture. And I was like, I want to do that.
00:03:25
Speaker
And so kind of move back to Dallas from Savannah. And, you know, when you're in art school or going to do commercial advertising, they tell you, got to move to New York or LA. I moved to Dallas cause that's where my parents were. I was going to kind of drop my stuff off and then head to one of those cities. And then I just got busy working in advertising in Dallas and got to travel the world and work for photographer. And so I was his first assistant for three years. And then kind of worked my way up and then really realized that I really like producing on commercial advertising shoots. And about that time, as we know, cameras were shooting video, photo and video. So we just started doing both a lot. So I was producing that stuff early on around 2008. And so that's kind of where i got the producer bug. And then since worked up through studio managers for photographers and then went agency side, i think someone on set one day shooting for some client and the agency producer was like, I don't think they meant it rudely, but like, yeah, you wouldn't make a good agency producer be coming from the production side. And was like, I put little bee in my bonnet. And so I eventually went agency side and we' we're working on a big car brands. And then now on the client side. And you finally made it to l LA now, right? You're in, like it took a while. You stayed in Dallas after college. You did get to l LA, but it just took a while. Yeah. It's funny. just moved a couple weeks ago and it's a city that I never thought I would live in, but here we are.
00:04:55
Speaker
Well, I've gotten to know you and I just think that your perspective is a valuable one. I share a lot of the ideas with you. um i think that we're going to agree a lot, but maybe who know maybe we'll challenge each other a little bit here too and see what's going on. We get into the practices of these things. I guess you've done all of these things and you've created a little bit of a practice for yourself though too, right?
Researching Clients and Tailoring Outreach
00:05:15
Speaker
You do actual consulting and coaching and you have a point of view that you're bringing to the table, right?
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah. As you know, when you change certain things on LinkedIn or social social media, and this is what I did when I was freelance, you start reaching out to those people. And I i started looking at the outreach from photographers, directors, reps, and I was like, 90% of this is bad, mainly because like a quick LinkedIn or Instagram search for me about me at that time, you could see that I only shoot cars, but then I would have photographers that shoot interiors or architecture reach out and ask if they could work for me. And so I look at their book and it's like, oh, you you've never shot a car before. and And you're asking to shoot interiors. It's like, well, I don't produce that. And so that was like a trigger, like
00:06:05
Speaker
not a trigger, but like ah a light bulb, like, oh, people aren't researching who they're outreached into. And reps are doing this too. They're sending me heavy lifestyle photographers with no car work.
00:06:15
Speaker
And as you, as you know, like shooting cars is a very niche thing. Like you, especially on the level of the, some of these big automakers, like it's shooting a mirror. So you have to, like like it's just, it's so different from shooting people. And so there is no research from a rep, like a a professional marketer that is supposed to be on behalf of these photographers and directors, they're not even looking at who they're sending to. So it's just this spiderweb shotgun style approach at reach at outreach. And I was like, this is crazy. And it drives me nuts. And so I could pick two channels. One, be the old man that's angry on his rocking chair and complain about it or or help. And so I decided to help.
Coaching Creatives and Providing Value Over Volume
00:06:56
Speaker
And I was like, um well, how do I help? And I would go on these walks and think about better outreach and better
00:07:03
Speaker
Things that I ran into when I was freelance and the ghosting that I got from people that were in now in my position. And so I was thinking like, okay, why do i why did I get that ghosting and why do I do it now? It's not on purpose. So you kind of have to do an audit of yourself, especially when I was now in that seat.
00:07:21
Speaker
I was like, I'm just going to reply to everyone who reaches out. And if they're not hitting the right target, then I'm going to try to help them. I would go in and rewrite people's outreach emails. Like, Hey, if if you want to get to me, this is how I would write it. And some people would get pissed. Like i had a ah guy, I don't know, he was an architecture photographer and I was like, Hey bud, no offense. And if you don't want any help, but I'm just going to give it to you now and just kick it back if you don't yeah He reached out to you, right? yeah yeah He asked you for an engagement, so here you go. Yeah, and so I gave it to him, and I just said, hey, I don't shoot that stuff. And a quick kind of Google search would have helped you, blah, blah, blah. But here's how I would approach it And he got mad and unfollowed me whatever. i'm going to help people. And then I was also, I'm going to take kind of some theories and practices that I've come up with, and I'm going to post about them on LinkedIn for 90 days and see what happens. And about, I think it was more of the algorithm and about 45 to 50 days is that this it's I started to get a lot of traction. And that's when people would would come into the DMs and stuff like this and like, asked me to coach or help them in their outreach and just some things of of just staying visible in a crowded market marketplace like the advertising world and it's been fun i mean it's been kind of well received i think the biggest thing that i see in people is is their own self-doubt they talk themselves out of and i do it too They talk themselves out of why it won't work faster than just doing it, just hitting send on whatever it is.
00:08:49
Speaker
But yeah, that's a quick kind of progress of how I've got into helping people with self-marketing, self-promotion. There's a quote that comes to mind. i don't know if you're, there's a kind of bit of a mentor to me. And that's where I got my training actually, where my point of view started was with this guy, Blair Anz, who runs Win Without Pitching. And he said something profound to me once. He said, the sale is a sample of the engagement to follow. And so if you do a weak, tired, effortless sales approach, people subconsciously, maybe even consciously think, oh, working with you is going to be the same level of effort. Like, and and that's the beauty of the business that we are in is that it's not a volume business. It's a value business. It's worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions, if you're really lucky, you know, like, It's worth a lot of money to get a client.
00:09:34
Speaker
And it's better to have fewer clients that pay more than to have a bunch of clients. And so if that's the environment from which you operate in, it's worth slowing down and taking the time to develop the relationships with the with the full effort that they go, wow, this person puts more than I ever would have expected into it. So I could imagine the engagement is going to be that way too. And it's a subtle way of building trust.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think, and I'm by no means like a sales guru, like Alex Hormozzi or some of these people that like are really good at coaching people how to sell products and widgets. And I just think as a photographer or director or what you're trying to sell is so different than a service that is home goods or acupuncture or something like that, or and a physical like headphones or a guitar or something like that. What we're trying to sell or what photographers and directors are trying to sell is they're just trying to sell themselves.
00:10:33
Speaker
So basically you need to be cool and be someone that's fun to be around, someone that's easy to work with.
Levels of Client Management and Building Partnerships
00:10:41
Speaker
The communication is flows back and forth nicely. And so those are all the things that like, I look for currently when we're looking to work with partners is, is all of that really simple and easy. I don't care how good your work is.
00:10:56
Speaker
There's a ton of people in the market right now that ah have really excellent work. And so then you have to level up the other part. It's not the days of like David LaChapelle and all this stuff where these, there's these epic photographers and then they're assholes. Sorry, David, if you're listening, but I don't think i just i don't think he's an asshole. i just It's an example of that caliber of the days of the 80s and ninety s when you had to kind of put up with stuff because photography and directing went back in film, it was like it was harder. You really had to be a better expert at the craft.
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah. You know, there's there's have these kind of actually learned this from another person, Jenny Plant. She does account management stuff and learned this from her. And that is, you know, kind of these four levels of client management. And one is, you know, you're just a trusted executor. Like you can do the basics.
00:11:46
Speaker
We pay you you do the work. We're happy. But then there's the next level of we'll pay you more than what we'd pay somebody else to do the work because we really like working with you. You make us smarter. You're a good communicator. I don't feel stressed. I feel relief, whatever it might be. There's reasons why you're worth more. Your money, even though I could buy cheaper, it's worth buying it from you. And then there's the next level of can your work actually make a measurable difference toward the goals and the objectives that they have? And then the fourth one, ultimately, is can you be so important to them that you can actually help them determine what their future goals and objectives should be. They come to you and go, hey, we don't know what we're thinking. we have something. We don't know quite what to do What do you think? And you get to shape those goals and in addition to measuring, in addition to being better to work with, in addition to just executing.
00:12:28
Speaker
So that's where I'm always trying to find, you know, how how can you move up into that if you want to? I mean, the further you go in, the more money you can make and all that stuff. Well, I think, yeah, the fourth is what you should strive for. I think right are starting out freelance shooting and when I had a freelance production company, there was so often that, and I learned this probably on like the second or
Freelancers and Understanding Client Budgets
00:12:48
Speaker
third job, like a client would come and they would have just, for example, a $100,000 budget for marketing.
00:12:55
Speaker
And when you're young and you're starting out production company and you're just trying to cover your overhead or whatever, you're like, yeah, I'll take all of it and get you your deliverables and what, and all that. Now, if I was doing it's like, and especially if it's a new company, like ah it's a startup or somebody that you can kind of tell they're kind of new into making video and photo assets for their brand. I'm to start out. Is this your, is a hundred grand your total spend with including ad spend and all that stuff? Or is a hundred, did you really carve out a hundred just to make the assets? And then how much do you have for your ad spend? Because if you make them a kick-ass video and then they don't have any ad spend money or,
00:13:35
Speaker
or any sort of marketing plan on the social side organically or paid, it's going to fall flat. And you know who they're going to blame? You. Right, exactly. Being at the level four of what you described, bringing more value and be like, oh, actually, I want to give you 20 grand back or 50 grand back. all I can do I can make what you need for this so that we can then take the extra or the other amount and push it so that this video or whatever we're making gets a better traction. I love that we're already going into, it we've got the client and we're talking about the scope of work and everything. yeah all that
00:14:12
Speaker
let's Let's start with the very, here's here's what I really am excited about this conversation. That is you're on the buying side now. And so I think, you know, were you wearing that point of reference and while I think you can really only represent yourself yeah um and what makes you make decisions and all of that kind of stuff. I do think you've earned the right to maybe project in what is probably common and you know relatively universal across the business. And so with that, how do people get on
Effective Outreach and Personal Connections
00:14:39
Speaker
your radar? Like what are the best practices? Like no one, you don't know them. They, you know, they've seen you, they found you. Ideally, they think they can help you and they can understand why it's not just thinking of you and seeing dollar signs and just, they just want your money, but they actually have thought about what works. How do they get on your radar? Give us some insights.
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah. and I'll, I'll just share like, this is what makes me open emails and, and reach back out. And some of how I say this sounds very cocky.
00:15:06
Speaker
I realize that, but it's I'm just being, I just believe in like, let's just cut to the chase and just say what it, what it is rather than like sugarcoating it. And so kind of the first thing is when you're reaching out to somebody, someone that has a title like mine or works in an agency, someone that hires people like you. I know what this is.
00:15:29
Speaker
You're a photographer. I'm a person that hires photographer. You don't need to tell me, blah, blah, blah. Like, so don't even bring that up. you you don' You don't need to set it up. No. Hey, I'm a photographer that works in St. Louis and I shoot blah, blah, blah. It's like, I saw that from at photography in your email. Right. And I can see it in your signature, your email signature. It's like saying, hi, my name is Chris. And then it says, And then you sign the letter, Chris, doesn't really make sense. You're just trying to to create a relationship because like I mentioned before, there's so much competition out here. and I just want to work with cool people that I want to be around because we're about to go on a journey together. That's going to maybe take months and then hopefully couple days on set where we're from sunup to sundown. We're spending time together.
00:16:16
Speaker
And so then it's just like, okay, I want to do research about who I'm reaching out to. And let's say they're at X, Y, E agency and they work on this client, then just compliment the last piece of work you saw, or you can be a little creepy and get on their LinkedIn or their Facebook or their Instagram or their MySpace, whatever, and pull out, oh, they went to Michigan state.
00:16:38
Speaker
I know that Michigan state just did a great X in this sport. I'm going to say congratulations or whatever. And they might, And you you are going out on a limb by assuming they're end into organized sports or whatever, but just some sort of compliment that gives you an end because we're all love to hear great things about ourselves. And if someone's like, man, I saw that piece you guys did. That must have been hard trying to get that location. I've shot there too. And I know that the permitting can be blah, blah, blah.
00:17:06
Speaker
Well, then then, okay, we have commonality that, of yeah, dude, it's actually sucked. We actually, i actually, and then I'll be like, actually found somebody in the permitting office that's really great here if you ever shoot there. Because we, I think in this business, we love to trade. So just stuff like that.
00:17:21
Speaker
I know that you're a photographer that wants to shoot for my brand. My brand's sick. And so that's the, and that's what people are like, oh that's so cocky of you. It's like, no, I just, we're, I don't know if I lucked out or I just like, but we got here for some reason and I want to work with everybody. I just can't. So you don't to say it. You don't want I would love to work for you. And if you're at any agency, we know like any agency shooting any brand, whether it's sketchers, no shade on sketchers to like, whatever, there are photographers somewhere that wants to shoot that or or directors. And so just skip all of that and try to compliment
00:17:55
Speaker
them. And sometimes, bro, the last thing I want to do is talk about work. And so if you can find some sort of commonality in the cold outreach, I kind of have some cold outreach templates that I've written. They're on my, on my newsletter, but I think it's just finding commonality, finding some sort of icebreaker that someone will respond. And then the big, big, big thing is, is follow up because a lot of people send out that first one and then they're like, didn't hear back.
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, I guess they hate me. And we're artists, we're very sensitive. Then you go in that spiral. So let's say they don't, it takes two weeks for them to follow up and then you beat yourself up for two weeks. I've done this. And then it's a month later, you still haven't worked. Then you get ah enough courage to do it to someone else and then they don't respond.
00:18:39
Speaker
We are so busy. Like I'm at the office right now. I will leave this talk and five people will talk to me and I will forget everything I said on here. i will forget other four people I was supposed to talk to because people are constantly asking for me and anyone in any position in any agency
Follow-Up and Staying Relevant Through Content
00:18:57
Speaker
or client. Like, especially now that everybody's going back in the office and we're just so distracted and people are constantly talking. And then I'll go to my inbox and it's full. And so you just, the constant, like, I think there's like a rhythm of you send the first one, don't hear back, give it two weeks and then send something else unrelated to the first one. And don't say, oh, I'm sure you're busy because no one likes to be told what they are.
00:19:24
Speaker
Like, try that with my wife. It's like, oh, why are you so angry? He's like, I'm not angry. Okay. we um And then just something unrelated. It could be like, i so i saw this LinkedIn post that you did. That was super cool. Another another engagement, another kind of compliment, another icebreaker, another, it's a it the next episode in the series, not a recap of the first episode. It's a moving on, moving the story forward. Yeah. Because, and this is just speaking from experience. When people do that, I'm like, oh, crap, I forgot I dropped the ball. I hope they are not upset with me or think that I'm a bad person because I forgot about them. bla bla law So we're both having the same conversations in our head that we're making up.
00:20:07
Speaker
And so then usually you'll probably get a response the second or third time. You may have to. do I know this guy. He did 56 touches before he got a response. And then he ultimately got a job from him.
00:20:18
Speaker
Over what period of time? i think it was like a year. And each one of those engagements, 50 plus engagements, are those micro engagements of like, I saw you doing this super cool.
00:20:29
Speaker
I saw, oh, hey, if you're ever there again, check this out. Or I just did this thing. You might find it interesting and steal an idea from it. Have it. Like, is it that kind of thing? Yeah, just a mix of kind of like a little bit of self-promotion-y, but never, you know, I want to work with you kind of thing. It's like, hey, I hope this is helpful.
00:20:47
Speaker
We just shot in this photo. Actually, I find it interesting that you put so much weight into the personal relationship too. I oftentimes think it's all about the work and the value that your work brings and the expertise you bring to their problems and challenges that you can project upon because you've seen this movie a million times and you can offer something.
00:21:09
Speaker
And i I oftentimes tend to not go so much into personal because I feel like maybe start with the business, we'll develop a friendship later, not start with the friendship and then we'll turn try to turn into business. Actually, I hate that in some ways, but there's got to be a connection. Tell me more about that balance for you. Yeah, I think I could see and I kind of had that same feeling of like, this is business, this is a transactional deal, but I just think it's a hundred plus grand usually, or or it's more than a car. And there's always multiple stakeholders. So you need someone to go to bat for you inside of these places.
00:21:47
Speaker
And so if you have that personal relationship, because you never know, you could be losing to somebody's cousin. Like we lost some big ones when I was freelance and We always would, to make ourselves feel better, it oh, probably lost to somebody's cousin.
00:22:00
Speaker
You know, somebody at the agency or the client that wanted to hire their cousin that has a production company or whatever. And we kind of joked around about it, but you have to give yourself ah a level up, an edge on some of these things. And I'm not talking about being fake. And yeah, it is a deterrent because it takes long longer, but we're going for like the 10 year relationship here, not the one and done. Then you're constantly selling, right? We want to get a client and then retain them for as long as possible. And people are going to move around like people and they should try other people. But your value and what you bring to the table, and this is a different conversation, should be so high that when they people try somebody else, they're like, dang, I want to go work with them again.
00:22:45
Speaker
And when oftentimes when people move to a new position, new company, whatever it might be, you and you get to go with them, you get the raise too. like that's the the The change moment is where you actually can level up. Man, this is already a great conversation on just like this just this topic alone. Let me ask you this. What about the value of newsletters? For me, and when I do client work and trying to develop companies, my ultimate goal is can I get them to make a newsletter? And not a newsletter that is a portfolio of work. That is not a news a good newsletter in my mind. A good newsletter is a point of view. It's your point of view on the world, on the business in the world that you're in and that the potential clients and leads are in. And you offer a point of view, not here's our work, you know, like it's here's what we think and here's work that shows why we think it. Does that work for you?
00:23:33
Speaker
Yes, I think you need to be putting out content every day, whether it and I'm pretty bullish on LinkedIn and I have a newsletter. But i I push everyone I kind of coach into creating content on LinkedIn every day of some kind because you're just trying to stay in people's ecosystem.
00:23:54
Speaker
And so you kind of have this rhythm of like, and and I just, I'm speaking from my own challenge that I made for myself to post for 90 days straight of now I have name recognition in my personal brand. And if you're a photographer, director, you have a personal brand. I know that's like a hot topic. these days to create your own personal brand. But it's it's true, especially like we've been doing it as a freelancer. You've been creating a personal brand forever. it's like That's why I always encourage people when they're like, what should I name my production company? Your name.
00:24:25
Speaker
Unless you really want to like have other directors under you and you just want to own operate. So the newsletter is great. And it's just good for business in general, create something where people know your name and they're constantly seeing your content, whether it's written, a mix of written and motion or stills.
00:24:45
Speaker
That way, if one day you're like, I want to get out of the business and I want to start a coffee shop. Well, you have this huge following that's going to come try your coffee or whatever it is. You created the next C stand. Well, now you have this huge following that's going to come by. it And so it's it's only value in creating content constantly and get people to read your stuff. And James, people might be like, well, that's now that's another thing I have to create. It's so easy to create content these days quicker, just the tools and resources we have available. But working for yourself is freaking hard. And hiring a rep to do it for you is not the answer. Yeah, you need to hire people around you to to help you. Like my first thing would be hire a cleaning person for your house just don give you that just to give you that time back. The second thing you should be hiring someone to cook your meals for you.
00:25:35
Speaker
And the third should be someone to do your laundry. Just so you can have the time back. That's kind of I can rant ranty on that. If anybody wants to hear about a conversation of whether you should hire a rep or not, there's an actual podcast episode that I did back in 2025, I believe. And with Doug Steven, who's a rep that talks about whether you should hire a rep. And he's really honest in that. It's um it's very good episode. Check it out.
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah, very good. So i always imagine that this engagement that you're talking about here, right, this email and hitting people up on social and paying attention and offering value, maybe sending them a newsletter and getting in them in and being all that.
00:26:10
Speaker
The ultimate goal of all of that is to get a conversation. Either you feel bullish enough where you can be like, I, these people are engaged. I've leaned in and then I leaned back and then they leaned in a little bit or, you know, I engaged, they reengaged back. You know, i got a reaction.
00:26:24
Speaker
I'm ready to ask. I know they're ready to have a meeting with me. I'm going to ask them. Or even better, you're so good. and this is the ultimate goal. Can you put out content? And I think of the the content you're talking about, the idea of daily stresses me out. I can't even imagine that actually. But I prescribe weekly for sure. And I try to get my my clients to think of themselves as a media arm.
00:26:44
Speaker
If you wanted AdAge or any other trade association or the New York Times, or anybody to write about you, imagine what you'd want them to say and just do it yourself. Get your own media. And that's a point of view. You're your own media arm. And you can really get away with that these days. And so you have your media going.
00:27:01
Speaker
Can you create media and content and engagement that's so compelling that you ask them for a meeting. Like you're like, holy shit, what you just said, you just said exactly what I was feeling. I never had the words for, i need to talk to you about something. i got a problem. Like that's the ultimate goal, right? So yeah but either way you get a conversation.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah.
Personal Interests in Marketing and Regular Newsletters
00:27:20
Speaker
And you're just being able to to share a creative outlet. Let's say, let's just paint a scenario here. Let's say you're a photographer and you shoot cars. You've been in the game 10 years, you've had success, and then you're seeing fall you keep seeing this like wave of of work. I think, and I'd be willing to bet, and I would hope somebody would just do this and report back in a year.
00:27:41
Speaker
If that's you have a ah side hobby of gardening or like vegetable gardening, And you post, you create a newsletter around that and how, and like what you get, what you're doing, blah, blah, blah. And it's, it's weaved into your Instagram or your social, like your social profiles with your car content when you're shooting for this stuff. Yeah. It's going to take off because there are going to, and the reason why I say this, and I think your business will take off.
00:28:10
Speaker
is because there's going to be people inside of agencies and stuff that are into that. And they're going to see your stuff and be like, want to work with him or her. want to be on set with them because I want to talk to them about gardening. Right. And you just huge job. It's just like little, like, because you're, then you're showing the humanistic side of your life and you're on camera like, so we just got these cucumbers. Look how big these out of the game. Believe And then the tomatoes are coming in here. Oh no, bugs got these. And then some of them are like, I got this thing for bugs, but they happen to work at like this huge agency. You know, it's just, it's, and I got, I got that from, we went to this real estate conference thing and this guy was teaching all these real estate agents, social media.
00:28:52
Speaker
And he was just talking about, no one wants, no one cares about you talking to them about interest rates. Right. They want to know, are you a human being? And can you help them with the toughest decision they're ever going to make in their life? That's very scary. Buying your first home, showing them how you, how you make a brisket on your new smoker and stuff like that is like, Oh, I want to be, I want to talk to James because he's likable and I want him to help me buy my first house.
00:29:21
Speaker
Let people in is how I'm characterizing that in my brain. Let people in and know who you are, not just what you can do. And think that is a such, I can't wait to even process this and think about it more. That is a fantastic way to to to put to make yourself visible is what I mean to say. That's a great way to make yourself visible. It's true to who you are and it's very authentic. and i want to say you know we spent a lot of time on this first part this visibility part and i think it's worth it because this is the part that most production companies and even agencies but definitely production companies stop because it's the hardest part and they don't do it and it takes a lot of work and so i think we just i think it was worth spending time on that so let's get to the next part or they do it for a month and then they get booked on a month-long job and they because they don't have a system in place they stop doing the the visibility outreach and then they have to start from zero again that's why i think a newsletter is really good if a monthly newsletter is such a perfect cadence because it forces you to put it into your workflow system And then you can use the content that you're making and the time you're making to make the newsletter to repurpose that content. i always say like in one newsletter, there's probably 12 pieces of social media content because you take micro bits of it, you know, and you and you pepper it around ah with with that with a little bit of this kind of personal interest and affinity. like a word like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're showing your affinities and have people, I think that that would be a really strong and keep it going. I agree with that. Yeah. and just like what I've heard it referred to as like a content waterfall. So the newsletter is the top of the waterfall and then everything flows into other pieces of smaller bite-sized content into other platforms. So let's say you get a conversation, whether you asked for it or they asked for it it's happening and they get a conversation.
Conducting Client Meetings and Understanding Fit
00:31:02
Speaker
This is where intake begins. Even if they don't have a job yet, you're looking for fit, right? You're looking for, do they have a need that you can help solve? Do you have the expertise? Do they have a budget? Do they have, you know, experience in this, all of this kind of stuff. And I always encourage people to go deep. If, you know, if you feel something in your gut or if you're like, oh, that's inappropriate to ask, those are the questions to ask. are you okay with that? Are you, or is it just ah an AGM, another good meeting that it it doesn't need to have any agenda with it yet? How do people meet with you? What's appropriate in your mind and not appropriate?
00:31:35
Speaker
I think everything's a appropriate. I don't think there's any off because I'll just, I won't answer it or, you know, but I've never been asked like an inappropriate question in a meeting. And I think, you know, if you get the, the, the, You're correct. Like the biggest thing that you want to do is push for a meeting, like ah an in-person or a coffee or a Zoom, whatever we're calling it these days, just to kind of get to know personalities on both ends. Because as a photographer, let's say a photographer, you may get on the call and not like that person just because they work for a sick brand. And that doesn't mean you need to go work for them because you don't want that. I mean, you should have a velvet rope on your business as well and not let any bad clients in. It's just miserable. It's not fun. i don't care who it is. And so that's, it's for, it's for both of you to kind of like, Hey, let's just like, it's like, and I had a client that I coached and he was like, dude, this is just like dating. I'm like, yeah, it's exactly like dating.
00:32:29
Speaker
Yeah. And and it's it's creating just like a ah wrinkle in my brain of of like, because the biggest thing is, and the reason why saying, let me know if I can ever work for you, or let me know if you ever have a job that I could fit into is like, it's very forgettable. and are are just checking in, you know, um we don't have like a stack of papers on my desk that when like, oh, here's X photographer. Yep. I have this project just for you. Thanks for reaching out. I've been waiting for you.
00:33:01
Speaker
I have nothing right now that I need to hire anyone for. Tomorrow may be different. Next week may be different, but there's nothing right now. And this year is everything that we've already booked. We've hired everybody. So that's even you're six months away from even having and job, but there is always stuff that pops up. and And so if you're constantly in the rotation, like I have worked with a ton of people.
00:33:24
Speaker
And if you were like list them, I would, I could, I can only think of like three people. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's too much to keep track of. And three all three of those people are is are there like, I'm in this person's wedding in December. They're a good friend of mine. And we we became friends from set.
00:33:42
Speaker
And photographers that I've just worked with for a long, long time, there's really good ones that I just can't think of but that I've worked with before because my my brain goes blank. But if they were to hit me up right now, I'd be like, so excited. be like, yo, thanks so much for reaching out. I've been, I remember when we went to Indonesia and shot that thing. that But so that's just the, just staying in the loop, providing value. If you shot, if you, if it's warm, you've shot with people before it's that, Hey, blah, blah, blah. Remember when we did X, Y, Z or,
00:34:12
Speaker
Sometimes I used to, so i used to like let's say we went to like a cool place like Hong Kong or something and shot. I would find something relevant to Hong Kong and three, two years later, if it was a successful, cool job, and just send it to them.
00:34:26
Speaker
Remember this? And then you're like, dude oh, hey man, I was thinking about you. out We actually have a job we need to shoot next week or next month. You're just dialing people's memory. Yeah. And by the way, that is a great use of AI for this. AI is good at many things.
00:34:41
Speaker
The thing that I find is so extraordinary at is connecting dots that you can't keep track of. Like there's no way you can keep track of it. But if you use AI to know what you've been doing, what they're doing, all that kind of stuff, and you want to reach out and you're like, hey ah can you connect something? You're doing this thing and they can go back. and like Remember that thing you did in Hong Kong? you You should share that. um Oh, God, I forgot all about that. Yeah, totally. You know, AI is a great, great tool for that. I love it for that reason.
00:35:05
Speaker
Okay, so there's the conversation is like the beginning of time for me. There's pre-time, then there's post-time, right? And and so in the engagement and the development is what I call them. So the visibility is the engagement and the development is after the meeting. And they're the exact same thing, right? You're staying top of mind, you're staying in front of people, except for one big difference.
00:35:26
Speaker
you had the conversation and you learned about them. So the engagement that you do after that conversation better be better than the engagement you would do before that conversation. And if it's not, you weren't listening and asking the right questions and doing your job well enough. You're not caring enough because if you had a good conversation, i should know Chris, what your KPIs or OKRs or whatever it is that you have to meet to like, how is your job being measured for success? I should know that.
00:35:53
Speaker
I should know what who you're working with, what's working, what's not working, what kind of budgets do you have, what problems, what challenges, what things launches are coming up, what do you need to build anticipation for? I should be able to know all of those things so that I can go back and process and go, wow, Chris said a lot of things. well Here's what we do. and you know And then that becomes how you stay in top of mind after the conversation, in my mind. And i would love to for you to say I'm putting too much emphasis on this if you believe that. but that it really needs to be rooted in the context of a good, deep, meaningful listening session.
00:36:27
Speaker
Is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah. hundred percent. Could you give me an example of when someone's done a conversation poorly and you're just like, that was a
Valuable Conversations in Business Development
00:36:36
Speaker
waste of my time. And when any specifics around someone's just did something and just made you go, oh man, that you just, that was a good, you know, whatever, but you know, really left a mark and, and work happened it was as a result of that.
00:36:49
Speaker
No, I mean, i I think this is a perfect example. I can't remember the ones that were bad because they're forgettable. Right. I think the the ones that are great are just when they, and I know it's hard, like people are going to have all sorts of things in the excuse, but how do you know if they're, what they're into or if it's of cold, if it's the first time, I think. There are other people that just understand me and the prospectively of like the business of making content you whatever it is, and just are good listeners. And you feel kind of kind of the same way when we first met. You just feel this like, hey, I get you, I get the world you're in And we we kind of vibed really easy because there's there's a personality type for everyone everywhere.
00:37:31
Speaker
um I truly believe that. And sometimes it's, we've actually got on bid calls before where the people that we really want to work with, they're just combative in the, in the feedback of like the creative direction. And it's like, well, if you're going to be like that now, you haven't even won the job. how how are you going to be when we're on set together and we want to change, but you don't want it kind of thing.
00:37:53
Speaker
think it'd be open, amenable, honest, all like the good qualities we we look for in anyone. when we're trying to talk to them and just wanting to like, I know you probably think it's a waste time, but just shooting the shit about something other than work. It's kind of like when you come home, if you're married or or in a relationship and your your partner asks you how your day was and you're just like, ah this is the last thing I want to can you ask me anything?
00:38:19
Speaker
It sucked. Like today was not great. Or when it's good, you want to talk about it you know But sometimes you're just like, what are you into? like Is it surfing? Is it skateboarding? Or is it? I even kind of sometimes like nerd out on, because I have a background a photographer, like nerd out on camera stuff. or You know, stuff like that. And like we've talked about, we talked about when we first met is like being aware of what's, I could quickly have all these context clues about James in this room that we could relate on, talk about, i could ask you about that. Then it's that old saying of the more I talk to you about me, the more I like you. i think I said that right.
00:38:54
Speaker
Those are the the good conversations. Then you leave like, I'm going freaking hire that person. And usually you don't even talk about process of photography or shooting. And it's the long game. It takes longer. I know it does.
00:39:07
Speaker
But just imagine the doors that'll, it could but you're playing the, like I said, the 10 year game. And if you're in a place right now where you're struggling to get work because finances are tight, it's kind of a different way I would coach. It's like, all right, let's see what your structure is around your finances. Because i can feel that too. and you're like, I just need a job. I just need a win. yeah And there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes it's, I've had guys and girls that I've worked with in the past that come and they're like, brother, I haven't worked in 12 months.
00:39:35
Speaker
They're like, well, why don't you reach out sooner? You know? But it's like there's empathy there. There's no better time to do business development than when you're busy. When you're busy, your perspective changes. Your your vibe is different. You know what they say? The best time to go shopping is when you have money in your pockets. Right. And so yeah you have options. And when you have options, you You act different when you have options and you can have a looser conversation. And I think that's really good. Okay. So we've had the conversation. it's been good.
00:40:02
Speaker
We vibed out. We got to know each other. We found some affinities of common interest. They like the war, you know, like I understand you and your net needs. You understand what I offer and it's cool. All right. We don't have anything right now, but man, this would be great. We're a fit. Like, let's just stay top of mind. You know, let's just, you know, stay close, you know.
00:40:19
Speaker
There's a technique that I want to get your opinion
Offering Insight and Demonstrating Expertise
00:40:21
Speaker
on. I learned this from the book, The Challenger Sale, years ago, and which is, by the way, my favorite sales book of all time, The Challenger Sale. And the consultative sales and really leaning into it. And it's about helping people versus trying to just get money. and so But there's a favorite line that really sums up the book. And it's, you I don't know, back in like... the old, you know, decades ago, you'd always like, tell me about your problems. You know, like, where are you? You know, and that kind of thing. I hate that big general question. Like, where are you struggling? You know, instead of asking like that, you should be so intelligent about them and their market and their customers that you can confidently and accurately say, do you know what should be keeping you up at night?
00:41:03
Speaker
Here's something, not what's keeping you up at night. Here's what should be keeping you up at night. And you can deliver intelligence and insight and teach and offer in a way that makes them go, oh, shit, didn't even see that. um Thank you. That's the level of understanding that I would hope would come after a conversation so that you could actually do that and that the conversation is so informative that you could actually make that kind of statement and back it up, of course. That's the post-conversation stay on top of mind that I prescribe. Does that make sense? Does it resonate? Does it not? Yeah, I think i think it does. There are some times where people will like start telling me stuff about the company that I work for and I'm like, yeah, dude I already know and I don't really care.
00:41:47
Speaker
but i you know And maybe that's just because I'm tired and hungry and not have anything to do with like the information that's being served to me. And I think that's kind of what you were saying, but I think it's more of like the challenges that that come when you're in the business of making things and making that seamless and being a help is where I'll see the most value.
00:42:12
Speaker
There's another layer that I'm not used to. And let's say it's a different way of looking at an estimate or presenting a treatment or i have to go through your rep to then do your producer and then to get to you, which i I understand why there's layers. We have layers. Everyone has layers because you need to maximize time and you don't want to constantly be doing this. But if it's like if it's harder, then it's going to deter. So, yeah, I think it's it is an understanding of the challenges that we go through.
00:42:45
Speaker
Post-production, all those things is like, that's the where I'm going to create and find, not create, that's where I'm just going to look to see value and the questions being asked around that stuff if if we're already deeper into the conversation, like you said.
00:43:00
Speaker
think you give a good potential negative trade-off of that approach and that is you say something that isn't meaningful and is wasting perceived to be wasting time and and not helpful at all and another one that I always this is the one that I always think about is um actually being too prescriptive when you don't have enough information like you offered something I could presume what you are going through and because I have experience in this but there's a lot that I don't know. I don't know what pressures. I don't know your bosses. I don't know your colleagues. I don't know what you might be going through. And I say something that is completely off because I just don't have enough information yeah and and I miss the target and it looks bad. So like either, you know, not relevant enough. i could tell you just wasting my time or dude, you just made way too big of a leap here. And it's, ah you know, like you, you clearly are not someone, you know, that's going to listen well. I, you know, these are, these are the potential trade-offs of that.
00:43:50
Speaker
I think it's sometimes too when, and people ask me this all the time, hey I just met with this brand and they were mentioning a project that they might want to work on or or something like that.
Caution in Pitching Unsolicited Ideas
00:44:05
Speaker
Or I just, I want to pitch them on this idea I had around their brand. And they're like, should I do it? I'm always like, no, because even if the idea is great, You're pitching them something they didn't ask for. And if if you kind of heard them ask for it, then you're doing it for free. And then what if it's just you didn't have enough information and context to hit the nail exactly on the head? So then you have this like bad taste in their mouth.
00:44:32
Speaker
Even if it's a great pitch, but you just missed the mark somehow on some sort of, it's probably in some sort of strategic angle of what you pitched. And then they're first, they're just, they're just going off what they saw and then they have a bad taste in mouth about you.
00:44:47
Speaker
And so you're assuming that they want to see your pitch, which is probably not the case. Unless it's like a doc that is very niched to some sort of thing that you've already shot.
00:44:58
Speaker
Then there are people that want to develop and people that want to see pitches like that. all the time. But if it's if it's a specific, let's say it's a running shoe brand and you had a conversation with this person, you kind of got the feeling that they want to see some creative from you.
00:45:13
Speaker
And so you create this pitch for them and then it just misses. Well, then you miss out instead of developing, developing, developing, and then ask them, Hey, i came up with this idea.
00:45:25
Speaker
I'd love to pitch it to you. What do you think? And they're like, yes. Then you start asking questions. This is kind of the direction I'm going. Is there any more context you could share? So like I hit it on the head and then make a dang NDA so they don't steal your idea.
00:45:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's, you know case studies are a great way to approach to approach that. so you know, you just... I just did some work for a client. I'm actually really surprised or impressed with how well it performed. Actually, the numbers were pretty good. It strikes me that you might have the similar need or have like there's a parallel lookalike yeah ideas going on here. I'd love to walk you through what we're doing and see and see if any of this fits with what you're trying to do and ask you some questions about that kind of a thing.
00:46:09
Speaker
Yeah. Or we yeah, at K-State, we just, you know, we just shared, we just shot X, Y, and Z, and this was some of the efficiencies we had. We were able to capture, you know, three times as much content because we brought in this one person, you know, stuff like that.
00:46:23
Speaker
That's, I love stuff like that. Just hearing about efficiencies that you can have inside of the production. Oh, that's great. Yeah. if in Efficiencies. What about innovations? What do you mean by innovations?
00:46:35
Speaker
So efficiencies I chalk up to we're able to do something faster and cheaper and still get the results are even better. Or we've created where we've created an AI tool that makes that so you can use your car commercial for four different seasons around the year. Like that's an efficiency in my mind, but an innovation might be more like we, it well, and really what I'm talking about is kind of creative and strategic innovation. So like we figured out a cheat code for getting people to not skip the intro of a, you know, pre-roll video on YouTube or, you know, like whatever, like that stuff. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Creative and strategic innovation is what I like. The ladder of using your car commercial and port isn't the seasons. I'll lose a lot of friends if I agree with that one. I know it was just, I'm just riffing. I'm just riffing here. yes No, I know. I know.
00:47:24
Speaker
ah Well, okay. So what we've done here is created a perfectly scripted playbook for your inbox to be absolutely saturated with people. well This is going to be an interesting case study to see if people were listening and did the work. Because basically we have the playbook right here for how to engage you. Is there anything we haven't said that you would hope they would use to engage you?
00:47:49
Speaker
It's funny you say that because... I've posted on LinkedIn and then the same day someone will DM me and it's what I just said not to do. They're not not reading it. You know, they're like,
00:48:02
Speaker
and I get it. Like I've been there that you're just trying to like, you're nervous and you're like, it took you all, it took you all of your energy just to write the thing. And then it took ah ah more of it to hit send. But I would just say like, slow down, understand who that person is.
00:48:18
Speaker
Do they produce the type of work that I shoot or want to shoot? If I want to shoot it and I don't have any of it in my book, it's a completely different conversation.
00:48:28
Speaker
Then it's like, I'm obsessed with what you make. I would love to be able to break into that industry. Do you have 15 minutes of of time where you could just coach me on how you did it? Yeah. And I promise you, your return rate of people wanting to, because I love to talk about this shit. I will probably most likely, if I'm not up to my knee, like right now is tough because I'm learning a new role. I've just moved to LA, like trying to figure out where the bathrooms are.
00:48:56
Speaker
But your return on replies will go so far. and And this is for the person that's breaking in or new or or even like been shooting for a long, long time and want to break into a different part of the industry. Because people let would love to give 15 minutes of your time. If I could just do this all day, I probably would and get paid for it.
00:49:16
Speaker
So that type of stuff, of that's just a really great message. It's staying top of mind, just not being afraid to send the 56 return. You're not being annoying. I promise. Unless you're annoying, like you're not. like Sometimes you can feel that angst of like, well, I guess you don't have time for me. or It's like, Dude, no, I just forgot. I'm sorry. I'm a human.
00:49:38
Speaker
Like the other day, the other day, like I put clothes on top of this laundry bag and my wife laughed at me. It's like, yeah, sorry. i don't know why I did that. That was really dumb. It's the same. Like our brains just shut off sometime. It's not because we don't like you, but it's that one thing of just hit it again, hit send again, come up with something.
00:49:59
Speaker
Clever, that's you and stay in that field. I would highly encourage a newsletter posting every day or at least three days a week to just stay top of mind and relevant.
00:50:09
Speaker
Reveal yourself. reveal yourself. I would encourage people that's listening. It's like, what's a hobby that you can just put out to the world? That's something talked about would be really fun to see. And it doesn't, the biggest barrier of like people are being, you're, you're having this new thing. You're so used to making content for other people. And then when you want to make it for yourself, we always just shut our office. Like So I was just like the imperfect nature of like my newsletter now and then two years ago or however long I spilled it, I'm just like posting on LinkedIn.
00:50:42
Speaker
I don't care. i'm just going to do it. And if people want to make fun of it or say that I use incorrect grammar or i don't care because if you want to make fun of me for that, I don't want you to be in my life. Yeah.
00:50:54
Speaker
There's something for everybody. Chris Witten, I opened the show up by saying you're a generous person. And what I'm realizing now is that I was actually thinking too small. You were way more than generous. out of your you That was such. No, thank you.
00:51:08
Speaker
Yeah. Such a great recap of how to stay top of mind in three different stages. Really actionable, practical ideas. I believe you. i think you do represent a universal perspective. Thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, James.
00:51:25
Speaker
All right. Thank you so much, Christopher.
00:51:29
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Keblis. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note at keblis.com. That's K-E-B-L-A-S e b l a s dot